Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Topic: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine (Read 36723 times)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #125 – 2016-11-28, 13:00:18

oh the usual American-irish type of stuff about ulster.

In 1914 Ireland had a bill passed in the UK parliament for a government but the 1WW of course interrupted that. Even modern former Irish Prime Ministers like John Brutin aid the Easter Rising thing was not needed. By 1922 things in Ireland were getting far too beyond what the northern province wanted to be part of and made it well clear they had no wish to be in an independent Ireland. This was accepted by Britain and that was that so don't start coming up with sly attempts at something else. Talk about fairy tale attempts to try and alter practical history. Ulster is still content to be in Britain and the more moderate nationalists in Stormont know this even if it is beyond you. Great co-operation does exist between Ulster and Eire and that is good because the old Irish grump nationalism and has been educated out of the chair and been a benefit to the southern republic. In the ulster parliament the people constantly trying to be losing the border are that Sinn fein scum and the more moderate nationalists are more sensible than that bunch of murderous trolls. If you think that the border is going to move away then you are in cloud cuckoo land and I will use Lord Carson's answer to the Border movement idea....."Not an inch."

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #126 – 2016-11-28, 15:18:06

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-11-28, 13:00:18

If you think that the border is going to move away...

No, I don't think that. And the fact that the border is not going anywhere proves my point. (You of course never noticed what my point was.)

I know you don't do answers, but here's a question: Was Ireland (that which is now independent) colonised by UK or not?

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #127 – 2016-11-29, 10:37:45

I'll take the opportunity of answering for RJ — since he doesn't answer questions, either!
Ireland was conquered, not colonized…

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #128 – 2016-11-29, 11:35:44

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-29, 10:37:45

Ireland was conquered, not colonized…

And the difference between the two is....?

To make it more concrete, list the relevant characteristics that distinguish the conquest of Ireland from the conquest of e.g. South Africa, so that we can see what makes one a colony and the other not.

(You know, you don't do answers either...)

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #129 – 2016-11-29, 13:12:26

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-29, 11:35:44

And the difference between the two is....?

That would depend on whether you include the settlement of people from the subjugating country in your definition. That would be the more traditional definition of a colony from antiquity, analogous to how @OakdaleFTL likes to use the word democracy. More concretely, Indonesia was a Dutch colony but there was never a policy of settlement nor was there spontaneous settlement like in South Africa. Places like Indonesia and Belgian Congo were colonies for profit, whereas Ireland was (also) a colony for settlement. Which brings me to my conclusion, namely that in the case of Ireland there is no room for that kind of (somewhat silly) argument. After the initial conquest there was also planned settlement (i.e., the Plantation of Ulster).

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #130 – 2016-11-29, 15:43:00

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-11-29, 13:12:26

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-29, 11:35:44
And the difference between the two is....?
That would depend on whether you include the settlement of people from the subjugating country in your definition. That would be the more traditional definition of a colony from antiquity,...

Seems to me that you're saying: The easier it is to de-colonise, the less of a colony it was in the first place. I think I'd agree, but Ireland has been very tough to de-colonise and even the independent part has not been de-colonised very well. The people lost their language, for one.

Or are you heading towards: After a thorough cycle of expulsion and repopulation, it ceases to be a colony and becomes part of the motherland. That's how U.S. would argue for their 50 states and Russia for all its expansion.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-11-29, 13:12:26

Places like Indonesia and Belgian Congo were colonies for profit, whereas Ireland was (also) a colony for settlement. Which brings me to my conclusion, namely that in the case of Ireland there is no room for that kind of (somewhat silly) argument. After the initial conquest there was also planned settlement (i.e., the Plantation of Ulster).

What/whose silly argument are you referring to?

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #131 – 2016-11-29, 19:00:21

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-29, 15:43:00

Seems to me that you're saying: The easier it is to de-colonise, the less of a colony it was in the first place. I think I'd agree, but Ireland has been very tough to de-colonise and even the independent part has not been de-colonised very well. The people lost their language, for one.

Implicitly I am saying that, but what I'm getting at is that I can understand how some people might say that colonies for profit aren't "real" colonies. In English there isn't really any standardized vocabulary for this, but in Dutch there are the words wingewest^[1] and kolonie.^[2] This allows one to say that Indonesia was both a profit area and a colony in the 20th century, but solely a profit area in the 18th century.

Of course you'd be quite right to signal that it can be a deceptive way to put it, but the distinction lies in the fact that Indonesia the profit colony used to be exploited and administrated by the Dutch East India Company. Later on Indonesia became an official part of the Dutch Empire. Being an official colony is actually better than being a profit area, because the Dutch government is accountable for much more than just profit to its shareholders. Abuse and injustice might result in impeachment or even jail. The same could be seen in Belgian Congo, which was just King Leopold II's private ~~play~~torture ground before it became an official colony.

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-29, 15:43:00

Or are you heading towards: After a thorough cycle of expulsion and repopulation, it ceases to be a colony and becomes part of the motherland. That's how U.S. would argue for their 50 states and Russia for all its expansion.

Not me, but it's probably the only way to argue that certain areas aren't colonies. While it can be used deceptively, the word profit area can also help to avoid this problem. Siberia is a profit area regardless whether or not it's (still) a colony.

¹Profit area, often conquered land.↵

²Colony, this refers to a certain formalized colonial bureaucratic apparatus but not necessarily involving settlement.↵

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #132 – 2016-11-29, 22:08:58

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-11-29, 19:00:21

Dutch Empire

That must be for turning my usual disdain about the Anglo Saxon towards the "Am I English Am I German??" Hollandeers.
Remember the beating you always had everytime you tried to steal our colonies.

Never the world saw such thieves as Hollandeers. It seems you profited a lot with all the sephardite jews we've expulsed from here and went directly to there. It seems that you keep on profiting... or maybe the jews profit on you, who knows.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #133 – 2016-11-30, 01:02:49

Ya gotta love the squabbling of Europeans! Just as ya gotta stay clear of their wars…

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #134 – 2016-11-30, 01:05:04

Just as well we know that is meant to be a satirical touch Oakdale. You lot have been in war after war, invasions, de-stabilising and so on. Three out of three for the attempt.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #135 – 2016-11-30, 04:31:10

Which makes your history go away…?

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #136 – 2016-11-30, 14:11:54

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-11-29, 22:08:58

Remember the beating you always had everytime you tried to steal our colonies.

Can't say I do. The Portuguese took Brazil from the Dutch; the Dutch (East India Company) took Indonesia from the Portuguese. Other places like Angola went back and forth a little, but on the whole the only real result is that the English gained a stronger worldwide position.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-30, 01:02:49

Ya gotta love the squabbling of Europeans! Just as ya gotta stay clear of their wars…

No can do. The wars come to you. These days those darn Europeans just stick one of their Nimitz supercarriers near your coast.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #137 – 2016-11-30, 18:57:06

We should perhaps remember Oakdale that you have been involved since the end of WW2 (and before) in up keeping military dictatorships right across South America and well in front of anyone regarding hypocrisy and mayhem. While we get on with running democracy you lot are up to your ears in militarism whilst tens of millions of Yanks starve.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #138 – 2016-11-30, 22:46:57

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-11-30, 14:11:54

The Portuguese took Brazil from the Dutch;

Are you drunk? Oh yes you are.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-11-30, 14:11:54

Other places like Angola went back and forth a little

Drunk again.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2016-11-30, 14:11:54

but on the whole the only real result is that the English gained a stronger worldwide position

Thanks to the Hollandeer thieves.

One day I will post about the ridiculous English African explorations... how idiot Livingstones and the sort were found lost and dying and helped by simple Portuguese colonizers...

What a bunch of cretins.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #139 – 2016-12-01, 01:27:15

David Livingstone rescued by Iberian papists?! Duh! Having carried the begging bowl to the EU for ages one would have thought you should have spent some on education dear man.When that great Proddy missionary died his African appreciators carried him right across the continent for a return home. May I also enlighten the Iberian muse that it was a British Empire and a vast number of the administrators were Scottish hence the efficiency which was better than what passed in yours.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #140 – 2016-12-01, 01:33:56

I would muse Belfrager in saying yes Prince William of Orange was a Dutchman and he ensured that we got a Bill of Rights and the start of modern democracy. His wife was the daughter of King James whom we got rid of with his white socks man religion. King William bringing in that Bill was the start of a great new political direction. Your place was left in darkness and no change or progress. Roman rule was always a basis for depression.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #141 – 2016-12-01, 05:35:06

Hey, Bel: How does it feel to be inconsequential?

You can't even keep your "pure" language a going concern: Brazil has overwhelmed you by sheer numbers!
But I enjoy the back and forth between you and Howie… It's like watching fans fighting out in the parking lot outside of the arena where a bout will occur.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #142 – 2016-12-01, 12:57:56

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-12-01, 01:27:15

David Livingstone rescued by Iberian papists?! Duh!

Welcome to a little bit example of reality. Don't look too much for reality, reality would kill you from instantaneous heart attack, better to you to remain in ignorance. Fantasy and illusion are your natural environment.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #143 – 2016-12-01, 13:04:51

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-01, 05:35:06

Hey, Bel: How does it feel to be inconsequential?

My dear Sioux friend, assuming that you know the meaning of inconsequential (which is not certain...) would you care stating about what am I inconsequential with?

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #144 – 2016-12-01, 18:46:20

He has got a nerve dear Portuguese man. Just look at how he tries to cross swords with me. One has to make allowances as he's a Yank.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #145 – 2016-12-05, 22:30:41

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-12-01, 05:04:51

My dear Sioux friend

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux… My family is English and Irish!

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-12-01, 05:04:51

assuming that you know the meaning of inconsequential (which is not certain...) would you care stating about what am I inconsequential with?

Of course! You're talking to RJHowie, a known and well-documented racist! Portuguese are notoriously not!
You are Portuguese, hence not a Prot/Prog! QED.
For Howie, that means you are inconsequential!
Howie's mind doesn't have the capacity of understanding what others say: If you aren't an Orangeman, you must be speaking gibberish!
(I often find your English to be easier understood than our "esteemed" Scotsman's…

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #146 – 2016-12-05, 23:08:31

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-05, 22:30:41

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-12-01, 05:04:51
My dear Sioux friend
I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux… My family is English and Irish!

But this means you worship the Queen of England and you're Catholic

That's anti-American! Sioux would be American.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #147 – 2016-12-05, 23:40:02

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-05, 22:30:41

Of course! You're talking to RJHowie, a known and well-documented racist! Portuguese are notoriously not!
You are Portuguese, hence not a Prot/Prog! QED.
For Howie, that means you are inconsequential!
Howie's mind doesn't have the capacity of understanding what others say: If you aren't an Orangeman, you must be speaking gibberish!
(I often find your English to be easier understood than our "esteemed" Scotsman's...

I'm out of this. Who's Howie?

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-05, 22:30:41

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux... My family is English and Irish!

Sorry, all Americans are to me Sioux, Cheyenne and the sort. As any European looks to you.
You must complain to the British for stollen your identity, for fooling you that you would be someone around us, not to me.
Anyway I've appreciated your sincere answer.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #148 – 2016-12-06, 08:42:06

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-05, 22:30:41

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux…

Isn't it awesome?
A Portuguese Shitting Bull is complimenting an American Sitting Bull! This one could stand for the initiation of a devout and everlasting friendship.

Re: Malaysian Airlines MH17 crashed in Ukraine

Reply #149 – 2016-12-07, 04:31:41

Well, Belfrager and I are -something like friends…
Still, we disagree on much. (But not everything. I'm a "lapsed" Catholic; but I know what I've "lapsed" from, and I still adhere to our catechism — for the most part.)