The DnD Sanctuary

If I missed any, leave a comment. I believe JoshL said I should be able to add 'em to the poll without losing any existing votes.

Some background that might inform your vote:

• Chromium forked Webkit and called it Blink. Google claims to have a bigger commitment to not breaking the web with a gazillion -webkit- prefixes.


• Elinks didn't really change anything, but you don't change a winning team.


• Firefox removed features like an easy Javascript toggle, small icons mode (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=736179), and other customization options.


• Internet Explorer 11 is the best yet, including vastly improved developer tools.


• Netsurf 3 adds support for user CSS, improved text selection, a more native appearance, and more (http://download.netsurf-browser.org/netsurf/releases/ChangeLog.txt).


• Opera switched from Presto to Chromium/Blink. It vastly improved on Chromium's speeddial alternative, although not on Opera's own speeddial, and allegedly improved website compatibility. It lost almost all customization ability in the process, but now has access to Chromium's vast extension catalog.

• Firefox removed features like an easy Javascript toggle, small icons mode (https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=736179), and other customization options.

Less Than 20 Per Cent Of Users Like Firefox's New Australis UI (http://www.lifehacker.com.au/2013/11/less-than-20-per-cent-of-users-like-firefoxs-new-australis-ui/)

To add insult to injury, it’s already possible to download an add-on called “Classic Theme Restorer” that transforms the UI back to its classic look.

I looked shortly at Nightly 28 Alpha 1 Pre. You still can toggle JavaScript, Cookies or Proxies from about:config.
I suppose that it's only a matter of time till according extensions will permit to do it through customized buttons too.

Right now I'm using FirefoxESR 24.2.0 as my secondary browser and will stick with the ESR channel as long as I'll use Firefox.

(https://files.myopera.com/Krake/files/FF.png)

Regarding your poll, I only looked at Firefox and Chropera. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as 'the best of 2013' for me.
The first might not be as crappy as the latter but over time the sequence might change  :o

That article says some pretty silly things, for instance:

As for customisation, unsurprisngly you’re going to have issues with add-ons and extensions with a new browser version.

Equating customization with extensions is exactly the problem. Say I'm on the train, so I want to turn off images and Javascript for faster browsing. Having to look for and download an extension defeats the purpose. If I'm lucky, I'll already have Elinks or Links 2 installed… Okay, so you can do that in about:config. Sorry, but should a user really know about about:config just to do something as basic as disabling images?

In Gnome they've also been struck with the same virus. By removing each and every bit of customization, suddenly I had to dive into gnome-config-editor for the most basic of settings, and I had to download a specialized utility just to change the fonts.

Unfortunately, there is no such thing as 'the best of 2013' for me.

I agree, 2013 is a disastrous year in browsers. Still, Netsurf is an extremely fast and interesting browser in between Elinks and a full browser like Firefox.

Regarding your poll, I only looked at Firefox and Chropera. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as 'the best of 2013' for me.
The first might not be as crappy as the latter but over time the sequence might change

I agree that there is no best browser. I have given up Chopera and totally avoid Chrome and IE. SR Ware Iron and Super-Bird might work, if I wanted a dumbed-down clean social browser. I have been using 64 bit Cyberfox since July. I am up to 50 extensions to do most of what I did with Opera 12. Customizing Opera ini files was easier than searching out extensions that don't conflict with either or almost do what you want.

Besides Cyberfox 26, my home desktop has Firefox 26, Aurora 28, Holly 29 Nightly and Australis 29 Nightly on it. Australis is running most of the same extensions as the other versions but does require the Classic Theme Restorer extension and some tweaking. Full themes for Firefox have not kept up with the rapid development scenario.

Someone should branch a Firefox build with the same functionality built-in as Opera 12 has and maybe we could get a 2014 winner.

In Gnome they've also been struck with the same virus. By removing each and every bit of customization, suddenly I had to dive into gnome-config-editor for the most basic of settings, and I had to download a specialized utility just to change the fonts.

Yeah. You'll need the Tweak tool and you need an extension just to have some sort of taskbar. It seems all the new browsers at minimalist (except Sleipnir.) I can't help but wonder if all this minimalism is just an excuse for not knowing how to design an interface.

Full themes for Firefox have not kept up with the rapid development scenario.

Full themes seem to falling by the wayside in favour of "personas." This means the default theme with some background picture that doesn't respect the actual size of the toolbars it's trying to decorate.

If I missed any, leave a comment. I believe JoshL...

You son-of-a!..
You forgot beer!;)

What is Netsurf?

If I missed any, leave a comment.

Surely you know a bunch that could be added, but it only makes sense to add browsers that we the members of this forum actually use.

I happen to have fairly few needs. For most of my online life, Opera Presto satisfies all my needs and FF used to work as a reasonable IE-replacement on Windows. I am increasingly less certain about FF's utility on Linux, but I haven't found a good FF-replacement yet :)

When using KDE, Konqueror seems a sensible choice for browser, because there's no other point in using KDE than KDE apps, is there? If you don't like KDE apps in general, such as KMail, Kopete, etc., then don't use KDE. I happen to like the extensive settings and options of Konqueror's interface.

The Webkit-based browsers that I have used longer than two weeks are Qupzilla and Luakit. A Gecko-based browser similar to Luakit is Conkeror (should be readily available for Debian). I'm sure I am the only one in these forums using Elinks, Konqueror, Qupzilla, Luakit, and Conkeror. The list would be uselessly long.

Maybe it makes sense to re-arrange the list according to browser engines, such as Gecko, Webkit, Presto, IE, and console-based? Plus beer of course.

And I agree with the general sentiment that 2013 has been a bad year in terms of browsers (apart from the fact that I rediscovered console browsers after a decade's pause). Then again, I am quite sure 2014 will be even worse. The bottom has not been reached yet.

If I missed any, leave a comment. I believe JoshL said...

Yeah, you're a believer! ;)
What do Androids use as their default?

I keep on using Opera 12.
What seems to be happening with browsers, less options, less personalization, less choice, also seems to be happening  with other different software.

In my opinion that's not a mere trend or a matter of consumer's options, that's a deliberate strategy by the software industry that increasingly produces software as if people were retarded children. The software "knows" what we want so we don't need to make choices anymore... All the way up towards the brave new world.

I've been using more and more the Tor bundle that uses a Firefox version tweaked for privacy aspects.
I suppose I could use Opera 12 with the Tor network but I don't know how to do it.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2013-12-29, 19:20:04

If I missed any, leave a comment. I believe JoshL said...

Yeah, you're a believer! ;)
What do Androids use as their default?

It's called "stock browser" in user comments. It's some kind of debranded webkit, I suppose. It's never updated.

I suppose I could use Opera 12 with the Tor network but I don't know how to do it.

In Ubuntu and Arch/Manjaro, first launch the Tor unit, then type "torify opera" and go to  https://check.torproject.org/ to see if it's connected to Tor network. "torify" may work for other internet-connecting software too.

What is Netsurf?

According to its website, "Small as a mouse, fast as a cheetah and available for free." If the website cooperates, like this forum does, it'll pretty much give you the speed of Elinks coupled with the looks of—well, any graphical browser.

Surely you know a bunch that could be added, but it only makes sense to add browsers that we the members of this forum actually use.

Naturally. I meant if I missed any that you think deserve to be voted for. :)

When using KDE, Konqueror seems a sensible choice for browser, because there's no other point in using KDE than KDE apps, is there? If you don't like KDE apps in general, such as KMail, Kopete, etc., then don't use KDE. I happen to like the extensive settings and options of Konqueror's interface.

I like the KWin window manager.

http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2013/11/kwin-a-solution-for-non-kde-based-desktop-environments/

Some people also like Plasma, but there's just something about the looks that doesn't sit well with me, even if I should like it reasonably well in theory.

I'm sure I am the only one in these forums using Elinks

Nope, I use Elinks and Lynx occasionally. ;) I actually replaced most of my Links 2 use with Netsurf.

What do Androids use as their default?

By default, most use a basic Blink-based browser or Chrome. Chrome offers sync and remote debugging.

Beer

It was a joke! [abbr=:beer:](https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaNtKVQG.png&hash=312178f841e41fb8ea26b70e3270dc06" rel="cached" data-hash="312178f841e41fb8ea26b70e3270dc06" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/aNtKVQG.png)[/abbr]
:P

What is Netsurf?

A browser for RISC OS (http://www.mjpye.org.uk/images/screens/ro4-netsurf.png)
( and a couple other, less important operating systems ) :left:

I suppose I could use Opera 12 with the Tor network but I don't know how to do it.

I use Tor once in a blue moon. However, using Opera with Tor is easy.

• Download and install the Expert Bundle.


• Start Tor.


• In Opera's manual proxy configuration enable SOCKS.


• Proxy server: 127.0.0.1; Port: 9050


• In Opera's Preference Editor enable "Use Remote SOCKS DNS Lookups"

That's it.
Additional recommendations:
Disable in Opera all Plug-ins (opera:plugins) and disable JavaScript (F12)
Open a new private Tab and close the non private one(s).

I used to use Opera almost exclusively. However, the latest greatest playing around both with the browser and with the users left me cold, so when I got this new laptop Opera didn't get included. Right now I have Internet Exploder because Windows comes with it, and I use the latest update Firefox for just about everything. I don't know enough about any of the other browsers-- and from the sounds of it there's not much point in trying them because everybody is trying to make their offerings as plain-Jane and barely functional as possible.

I use the latest update Firefox for just about everything.

I think Firefox is the best still-developed (mainstream) browser there is, provided you install a few extensions like Tab Mix Plus, NoScript, GreaseMonkey, and Stylish (ymmv). Simply put, Chromium is worse out of the box and its extensions are worse too.

ׂ

I'm not saying!  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/nopeyr4.gif)     (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/TAPED%20MOUTH%20SHUT.gif)      (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/beee.gif)

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

I have to vote firefox, mostly because it's the only modern browser that's usable on most of my hardware.

Opera switched from Presto to Chromium/Blink. It vastly improved on Chromium's speeddial alternative, although not on Opera's own speeddial, and allegedly improved website compatibility. It lost almost all customization ability in the process.

I switched to Opera 19 and find the compatibility is stellar compared to 12.  I find the speed amazing and it rarely crashes.  Yes, I've had to customize it to death with extensions from Chrome and other places but it's still my favourite browser, especially now that it works with almost every site I go to.

Second choice is Firefox but I really find Firefox uses up way too much memory and freezes a lot.

Chrome is useless, never turns off properly and freezes contantly.

IE is there but I never use it.

Don't know the other ones mentioned at all.

Yes, I've had to customize it to death with extensions from Chrome

Fair point. I added that to the description.

Don't know the other ones mentioned at all.

Elinks and Netsurf are geekie, but both are at least occasionally used by people on this forum (and I'm not just talking about me).

I'm noticing there's a ton of geeks on here who are much more knowledgeable than I am.  (And geek is not a bad word in my vocabulary, btw) I'm trying to stay where I can hold my own because a ton of discussion is way over my head  :)

I'm noticing there's a ton of geeks on here who are much more knowledgeable than I am.  (And geek is not a bad word in my vocabulary, btw) I'm trying to stay where I can hold my own because a ton of discussion is way over my head  :)

Ask them. :)
That's what I do. That's the biggest advantage of D&D, you make part of a group of people that no matter how much we discuss, we are always ready to help each others. :)

Imagine that those "geeks" are helping me to make my first steps into Linux. That's great :)

Quote from: myminpins on 2014-01-02, 16:13:09

I'm noticing there's a ton of geeks on here who are much more knowledgeable than I am.  (And geek is not a bad word in my vocabulary, btw) I'm trying to stay where I can hold my own because a ton of discussion is way over my head  :)

Ask them. :)
That's what I do. That's the biggest advantage of D&D, you make part of a group of people that no matter how much we discuss, we are always ready to help each others. :)

Imagine that those "geeks" are helping me to make my first steps into Linux. That's great :)

Oh, if I have questions, I certainly will.  What I meant was some of the conversations I see, I have no freaking clue what they're going on about so I just move on :)

I agree with the general sentiment that 2013 has been a bad year in terms of browsers (apart from the fact that I rediscovered console browsers after a decade's pause). Then again, I am quite sure 2014 will be even worse. The bottom has not been reached yet.

2014 was not much worse for browser than 2014. It's been interesting to observe the development of Otter. Fifth browser, another somewhat promising project, was started. So I'd conclude that the bottom has still not been reached.

This year Vivaldi came out. It only rides on nostalgia, but doesn't add anything substantial to the browsers market. It doesn't even properly recover what was lost. I will start a new thread when we are past the lowest point.

Is it true that there is a single developer behind Otter project? If so this is a mammoth task.

There's always just one leader. There are a few more contributors. So, yes, it's a small team. For Fifth browser (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=568.0) there's really just one developer and this makes it a very hard mammoth task.

I tested SeaMonkey but not all Firefox add-ons (the main reason I still stick to Firefox) are compatible with SeaMnkey.

I know Seamonkey since before Firefox existed. Seamonkey was called Mozilla. Firefox (first named Phoenix and then Firebird) was created to be the lighter version of Mozilla. Now Seamonkey is the lighter and more feature-rich version of Firefox instead.

I also haven't gotten some Firefox add-ons to work with Mozilla, but I decided I don't need them so badly anyway. Which add-ons do you use?

Then I reverted to resurrected K-Meleon but it lacks many features I need.

Which features specifically?

I used to use K-Meleon (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=515.0) once upon a time when I was on Windows.

I had a look at Midori but I wasn't impressed.

For some people, Midori still looks like an option - it's the default browser in a bunch of distros. Not to me. Lately the developers seem to have run out of ideas and now the maintenance only consists in removing options that it once had, like with Firefox. For example Midori doesn't allow hiding the tabbar anymore when only one tab is open. This option is patched into Midori only in Linux Mint.

With few exceptions (SeaMonkey, Pale Moon, K-Meleon, Otter) all browsers have been dumbed town beyond usability. I dream of a browser that doesn't suck.

How about Qupzilla?

I always used several browsers side by side for several tasks. For example it's easiest (and probably safest) to use one browser for the websites where you need to be logged in, i.e. cookies turned on, and a whole different browser for the rest of the web with cookies turned off.

Opera was the browser that did many things I needed in one. For example I liked its elaborate custom styles ability, so that the entire web was presented in the same fonts and colours. Now I use Elinks for this.

For example it's easiest (and probably safest) to use one browser for the websites where you need to be logged in, i.e. cookies turned on, and a whole different browser for the rest of the web with cookies turned off.

Plus you're less likely to accidentally use the wrong browser than you are with different profiles (or those newer "private" tabs/windows).

Quote from: ersi on 2015-06-26, 04:58:00

For example it's easiest (and probably safest) to use one browser for the websites where you need to be logged in, i.e. cookies turned on, and a whole different browser for the rest of the web with cookies turned off.

Plus you're less likely to accidentally use the wrong browser than you are with different profiles (or those newer "private" tabs/windows).

I started this kind of practice as soon as I adopted Opera. The reason back then was simple. I liked Opera first for its email client, whereas Opera's plugins support was dismal. Instead of struggling with the plugins, I simply turned them off in Opera. When a webpage required plugins or other fanciness, I opened IE or FF from Opera.

Internet has turned into another way for the Saxon "Neo Liberal" hidden Nazi invasion.
The "best browser" is the best weapon for the Saxon's invaders.

The world needs totally useless browsers, not "best browsers" to deliver the invader's propaganda.

Internet has turned into another way for the Saxon "Neo Liberal" hidden Nazi invasion.
The "best browser" is the best weapon for the Saxon's invaders.

The world needs totally useless browsers, not "best browsers" to deliver the invader's propaganda.

What is this "Saxon" that you keep talking about? Isn't Opera "Saxon"? Or is it "Germanic" and therefore something different from "Saxon"? By "Saxon", do you mean the same as when people say "Anglo-American"?

But the thing is, different browsers have originated in random countries. The first web browser ever in the world was made in Finland (Erwise). The browser I use half of the time (Elinks) is Czech. Whereas the wisdom that internet must allow primarily for open protocols along with encrypted/encryptable connections is, as far as I can tell, "Saxon".

By "Saxon", do you mean the same as when people say "Anglo-American"?

Yes, Saxons were German tribes that colonized England... then the lot moved to North America and now tries to invade the entire world but facing some difficulties with that intention. Germanics are mainly Germans plus a few others around them.
All of them are kind of cousins so useless to separate them, all being the same thing. My point it's not about them but about the Internet and the way we can access it, by way of using "browsers" in our computers.

Since the Internet became the most powerful instrument of global repression it's obvious that "browsers" are a vital tool for such repression.
Therefore the best browser being the worst of all. :)

If the Internet was invented by a Saxon or a Pygmy it's indifferent to me. The Old Opera browser was, for the time, the only browser than anyone could immediately see that it's conception was not Saxon and it respected and treated users as not being idiots but at the time there was still hope the Internet could be a space of freedom, not anymore.

Why should I care with someone developing obscure browsers that gives the user a lot of options if all the content they can "browse" it's nothing but distortion, propaganda, repression and noise? It's the Internet content that matters, with that problem solved (if ever), browsers - good browsers - will appear naturally. I suppose that there's not any technical problem involved with that.

By the way, don't you think that the Browser you are involved with should have a thread where people could clearly see from where one can download it's last release? because it doesn't.

And I agree with the general sentiment that 2013 has been a bad year in terms of browsers (apart from the fact that I rediscovered console browsers after a decade's pause). Then again, I am quite sure 2014 will be even worse. The bottom has not been reached yet.

2013 was bad and it has been downhill ever since. The bottom has still not been reached, I think.