The DnD Sanctuary

[glow=black,2,300]KIEV, Ukraine [/glow]— Russian forces in two armored columns captured a key southeastern coastal town near the Russian border Thursday after Ukrainian forces retreated in the face of superior firepower, a Ukrainian military spokesman said.

The two Russian columns, including tanks and armored fighting vehicles, entered the town of Novoazovsk on the Sea of Azov after a battle in which Ukrainian army positions came under fire from Grad rockets launched from Russian territory, according to the spokesman, Col. Andriy Lysenko.

“Our border servicemen and guardsmen retreated as they did not have heavy equipment,” Lysenko said in a statement.

Ukrainian authorities have denounced the latest fighting as a Russian invasion (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/08/28/has-russia-invaded-ukraine-heres-what-we-know/) of their territory, intended to prop up pro-Moscow separatists who have been losing ground to Ukrainian forces and to open a new front in the southeastern corner of Ukraine. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/04/18/understanding-novorossiya-the-latest-historical-concept-to-get-worried-about-in-ukraine/)

Is this the beginning of [glow=black,2,300]WAR???[/glow]

What do you think about Russia's incursion into the sovereign territory of The Ukraine?

What will the response be from Europe ....... The West ...... The World!?

Is there any oil?

What do you think about Russia's incursion into the sovereign territory of The Ukraine?

Russia won't (and reasonably shouldn't be expected to) give up its few warm-water ports… (For something similar —and similarly provocative— think: Guantanamo. But Russia's case is better!) And, as should be known to all, Russia needs Russians…

But, yes, cool heads rarely prevail: It could indeed become another World War, precipitated by events (squabbles) on the European continent.
Nothing new here. (I don't mean the threads…)

Is there any oil?

Good point. Not of any appreciable amount, if any, but.......

Ukraine's geographic position and proximity to Russia explain its importance as a natural gas and petroleum liquids transit country.

Approximately 3.0 trillion cubic feet (Tcf) of natural gas flowed through Ukraine in 2013 to Austria, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Moldova, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, and Turkey.

Two major pipeline systems carry Russian gas through Ukraine to Western Europe - the Bratstvo ("Brotherhood") and Soyuz ("Union") pipelines. The Bratstvo pipeline is Russia's largest pipeline to Europe. It crosses from Ukraine to Slovakia and splits into two directions to supply northern and southern European countries. The Soyuz pipeline links Russian pipelines to natural gas networks in Central Asia and supplies additional volumes to central and northern Europe.

A third major pipeline through Ukraine delivers Russian natural gas to the Balkan countries and Turkey. In the past, disputes between Russia and Ukraine over natural gas supplies, prices, and debts have resulted in interruptions to Russia's natural gas exports through Ukraine, with the latest one occurring in 2009.

The 400,000 bbl/d southern leg of the Druzhba oil pipeline transports Russian crude oil through Ukraine to supply most of the oil consumed by Slovakia, Hungary, Czech Republic, and Bosnia. In 2013, about 300,000 bbl/d of throughput transited the pipeline. Russian crude oil and petroleum products also transit Ukraine by rail for export out of Ukrainian ports.....

.......Recent discoveries of shale gas deposits in Ukraine provide the country with a possible means to diversify its natural gas supplies away from Russia. In January 2013, Shell agreed to explore an area which the government estimates holds about 4 Tcf of shale natural gas in reserves. Current plans include development of shale gas resources for domestic consumption and exports to Western Europe by 2020.

That might present a tiny incentive,,,no? (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/imthinkin6.gif)

Why do we need this thread at all? We already have one on Ukraine and the things going on for goodness sake.

Why do we need this thread at all? We already have one on Ukraine and the things going on for goodness sake.

Simple.
1. Don't read it.
2. Don't post to it.

Why do we need this thread at all? We already have one on Ukraine..........

This thread is totally different.....it's specifically about a Russian Invasion on the Sovereign State -- The Ukraine.

A real & serious matter.

That other thread is, as the name says so plainly, but so prominently implies, is about [glow=blue,2,300]"TRIPE". [/glow]

Noun: tripe
1. Lining of the stomach of a ruminant (especially a bovine) used as food
2. (informal) statements or beliefs that are untrue or make no sense

By definition, that other thread is about ".....statements or beliefs that are untrue or make no sense",
whereas this thread isn't about "TRIPE", it's about a serious & documented incursion of one sovereign state upon another which may lead to serious consequences for those particular states, & in the long run, the rest of the world.

That's not [glow=blue,2,300]"TRIPE" [/glow]

Now, in all fairness, I've read a lot of your posts, &[glow=black,2,300] "TRIPE"[/glow] seems to be a  fecal focal point of yours, one of the only subjects many would probably agree that you excel in! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

Why do we need this thread at all?

To take your question at face value: We don't, since you mean by we you, yourself… Watch your telly and rest on your laurels… (Why do you call them that, by the way…? :) I thought foggies in GB called them "nates"…)

Simple.
1. Don't read it.
2. Don't post to it.

Good advice. And the done thing with good advice is to promptly ignore it.

Back to the topics at hand, the first Ukraine thread had this topic start, unrest in Ukraine, protests against the then-President, and its aftermath.

I watched that Obama on television going oBn about rights and stuff in Ukraine and how peaceful protestors should be allowed freedom to protest. Eh? Peaceful protesters can someone find them.Kind of funny when one remembers how the anti-Wall Street folk were treated. Anyway he along with the EEC are sticking their noses into a situation they should keep well out of. Time after time we have been media brained into a one sided report and interviews. Ukraine had an election and produced a President and there he stays until the next one.

The shooting down of the Malaysian airline spun off as a thread of its own. This thread is about:

[glow=blue,2,300]The Russian Invasion of The Ukraine [/glow]

WAR???[/size][/color][/glow]

What do you think about Russia's incursion into the sovereign territory of The Ukraine?

What will the response be from Europe ....... The West ...... The World!?

Russian troops in Ukraine is not a duplicate of the original thread.

Quote from: tt92 on 2014-08-28, 22:29:08

Simple.
1. Don't read it.
2. Don't post to it.

Good advice. And the done thing with good advice is to promptly ignore it.

Good advice.

Is War on the Horizon? (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=484.msg26515#msg26515)

And who in Europe will enter a war against Russia?
And who in the world will enter a war against Russia?

Russia can do whatever it pleases them with Ukraine no one will do anything but talk, talk, talk.
Probably, at the good old CIA's tradition, they will try to finance some "liberation" or "resistance"  movements to see if they can keep Putin entertained just with Ukraine.
I doubt Putin's ambitions to limit to Ukraine and there's no one willing to play Napoleon again.

Can I remind you Belfrager that the one country that does what it damn well likes, invades, destroys countries and such is the good ole US of A. No-one comes anywhere naer it for hypocrisy.

The USA and Russia have made a point of not tangling with each other in a direct war. Each side has used proxies for the purpose-- Korea and Vietnam come to mind-- but they've stayed away from direct conflict with each other.

I think if we DID go to war against Russia the USA would probably win--- but the war would be long enough and brutal enough even without nuclear exchanges that nobody in his right mind wants that war.

Eugene Volokh (at the Volokh Conspiracy) posts about, and points to, this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/29/war-in-europe-is-not-a-hysterical-idea/)...

The Kiev lot have been allowed to get away with direct murder and seeing the aftermath of residential areas damaged or burned out and bodies on streets is something else. The Ukrainian government caused this present debacle by cancelling out the Russian language that was okay before the coup. Some international politicians including in Europe have said that it is a mistake Kiev treating the East and their language as they have. Then we have large numbers struggling to find water and no power as Kiev has destroyed much of the power supply. Their President a while back said they would not be singling out civilians and that is a damn lie since then and it can be seen daily.

I can agree with mjsmsprt40 that an actual war with Russia is not something to be wanted however it would be a guess to simply say that the USA would automatically win. If anything it would be equally possible to be  terrible stalemate. More have now died that re the Gaza yet the West ignores the plight of Ukrainians in the East starving and being killed. Even trying to get supplies into the place was condemned. Have we lost our marbles or sense?  The way Russian speakers were treated from the start was a disgrace and certainly rights and freedoms did not come into it at all. Seems it is okay for American and Allies to get involved in anything to "protect their interests" but not anyone else.

NATO makes noises but it absolutely sod all to do with them and most of it's component countries don't want to spend any more on the military. Ukraine is continuing to cause problems by saying it may ask for membership thus making things worse again. The Prime Minister is an almost unbelievable, arrogant, smart alec who will stir anything up. I also notice that nobody here has said anything about the Right Sector leadership many of them serving in the National Guard and making threatening noises.. Seems it is okay to put up with neo-Nazis if the West wants them.

Eugene Volokh (at the Volokh Conspiracy) posts about, and points to, this article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/08/29/war-in-europe-is-not-a-hysterical-idea/)...

While I don't know about  Novorossiya  yet, I know about multiple satellite images of Russian forces illegally operating within Ukraine. There's is no intelligent way to deny what Russia is doing now, Howie.

Yes there is White House brained poor man.

I would want to have the dates and times along with the actual place of the "pictures" please then I will be a little more flexible.  Now to add to this in case your bias media has not told you this let me further help and enlighten you.

Firstly, when there are comments that the rebels are using Russian weapons - of course they are. When Ukraine was part of the old USSR there were military stores across the Ukraine like everywhere else and these have been well ransacked by the rebels!! In fact the Ukraine Army is still using Russian weaponry dear man. As for hundreds of Russian tanks across Ukraine yet another cobbled item. Let us know when you find out the co-ordinates to verify that. After all journalists are all across the Ukraine's battle zone and there seems a dearth of such a record in action.

As for the Ukrainian Army it has increasingly been sliding into a lack of energy and losing the will to fight thus automatically helping the rebel cause. Add the enthusiasm of the people fighting the Army and things do not look good for Kiev. You also ignore the great input re Kiev from the neo-Nazis via the Right Sector which you studiously avoid and their part in the National Guard. If I tried to be fair to you based on your limited actual factual knowledge I could understand why you take the stance you do. However I am not going to fall back on making excuses simply because you are simple enough just to take the controlled versions you get on the media.

Kiev deserves what it is getting as right from the start they bore down on the vast numbers of Russians/Russian speakers in the East. They are burning homes and slaughtering innocents.

Secondly, there are volunteers from outside Ukraine (some non-soldier volunteers from Russia) and they include from across EUROPE! The leader of the French volunteers has made it plain on camera that they are not mercenaries as they are not paid by anyone. These European volunteers are disgusted at the way the East has been ignored then slaughtered. With the Ukrainian Army losing it's morale against a strong cause and economic slide of the country it is not surprising that their President is conjuring up all sorts of Russian stuff to detract from the mess. In Kiev for example even though still warm it wasn't air conditioners that were being bought but boilers for hot water in the coming winter! There will be a bad drop in fuel supplies and even schools are meeting on Saturdays now as there will be two month holidays around Christmas due to the fuel crisis.  And this on top of the billions (on a discount) they still owe that terrible Russian bear!

And this nonsense about further sanctions against Moscow is another farce. The Polish ambassador to NATO seen giving out Polish apples whilst his own farmers are going daft not being able to sell to Russia! Russia will do more business in the east of the world with China and others as well as South America. Putin was very clever on tat recent tour!
So do try and open the yes a wee bit more and then a better opinion.

Oh, man-- did I just read that? RJHowie is demanding documentation. I have yet to see RJ document much of anything. When pressed about something, he invariably says he saw it on the telly and can't give much useful information so others can find it.

Now, at least Sang did produce some links so you can find what he found--- and then, if you're of a mind to do it maybe you can find something that counters his links. But, at least Sang produced something you can check.

I have yet to see RJ document much of anything. When pressed about something, he invariably says he saw it on the telly and can't give much useful information so others can find it.

I know right? He starts threads and leaves it to everyone to find out what the hell he's even talking about.

NATO (http://aco.nato.int/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat-troops-inside-ukraine.aspx) released multiple images of Russian troops in Ukraine.

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Faco.nato.int%2Fsystems%2Fimage_thumbnail.ashx%3Ffile%3D%2Fresources%2F3%2Fimages%2F2014%2Frussia%2Fukraine_aug%2Fimage1.jpg%26amp%3BSize%3D520&hash=b34352af1a422130e534ff20d38aa643" rel="cached" data-hash="b34352af1a422130e534ff20d38aa643" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image1.jpg&Size=520)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Faco.nato.int%2Fsystems%2Fimage_thumbnail.ashx%3Ffile%3D%2Fresources%2F3%2Fimages%2F2014%2Frussia%2Fukraine_aug%2Fimage2.jpg%26amp%3BSize%3D520&hash=ec21b32f5de35a9651060c87f8c37a3f" rel="cached" data-hash="ec21b32f5de35a9651060c87f8c37a3f" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image2.jpg&Size=520)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Faco.nato.int%2Fsystems%2Fimage_thumbnail.ashx%3Ffile%3D%2Fresources%2F3%2Fimages%2F2014%2Frussia%2Fukraine_aug%2Fimage3.jpg%26amp%3BSize%3D520&hash=c32e892b0a730f387b0fcb1b5fba16c3" rel="cached" data-hash="c32e892b0a730f387b0fcb1b5fba16c3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image3.jpg&Size=520)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Faco.nato.int%2Fsystems%2Fimage_thumbnail.ashx%3Ffile%3D%2Fresources%2F3%2Fimages%2F2014%2Frussia%2Fukraine_aug%2Fimage4.jpg%26amp%3BSize%3D520&hash=8dd3fbf60138d21a78d53c8364708aef" rel="cached" data-hash="8dd3fbf60138d21a78d53c8364708aef" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image4.jpg&Size=520)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Faco.nato.int%2Fsystems%2Fimage_thumbnail.ashx%3Ffile%3D%2Fresources%2F3%2Fimages%2F2014%2Frussia%2Fukraine_aug%2Fimage5.jpg%26amp%3BSize%3D520&hash=cc51babebb6bdce1d2166dceacb9e86d" rel="cached" data-hash="cc51babebb6bdce1d2166dceacb9e86d" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://aco.nato.int/systems/image_thumbnail.ashx?file=/resources/3/images/2014/russia/ukraine_aug/image5.jpg&Size=520)


Sergey Lavrov of Russia Today claimed the images are from video games :faint: The Russia troops captured in Ukraine must be from video games too. That's damn impressive video game technology that can make the Ukrainian army think they caught Russian troops that must really be holograms or something :p Maybe I'll go to Gamestop and buy that game produces seemingly solid to the touch video enemy soldiers that you don't even need 3D glasses to see.

Firstly, when there are comments that the rebels are using Russian weapons - of course they are.

You damned well know that wasn't the entire claim. Russia is currently supplying the separatists and I've provided documentation to that effect

Please clear this up for me.
Who are the Good Guys?

Time after time when pressed that White House arrogant woman says were sure and then makes a point of not staying on difficult questions. Can I say mjsmsprt40 we are talking about a civil war situation here. I have watched the European volunteers and gave an example of one French leader interviewed. We constantly get the stuff about how the rebels have been using Russian weapons which is a pointless repeat by propagandists. With all the ammunition and weapon stores in Ukraine and some taken by the fighters it is hardly surprising. The Russian Deputy Foreign Minister has stated directly that there are civilian Russians amongst those foreign volunteers. When one considers the utter hypocrisy of the West having a history of supplying terror groups with weaponry aided by the US's dictatorial chums in the ME the totally one-side onslaught here is ridiculous.

The pictures by NATO include units "facing Ukraine." The others lack detailed  geography and would be easy for the loads of media to go and see. Let's wait for them......

Please clear this up for me.
Who are the Good Guys?

We're still trying to figure that out.

Let's see here. Ukraine is presently ruled by an outfit that took over from an elected government in a coup. This new government seems-- at least from RJ's rants-- to have Nazi sympathies if not outright being Nazi. Now-- as per usual, RJH hasn't produced documentation, so in my mind it's much like the situation we have here in the States where I, as a Republican, call Obama a Socialist while Sanguinemoon, a Democrat, will call a Republican a Fascist.  Not much, if any, documentation to support either claim but the words get thrown around all the same.

Now-- on the other side: The Separatists seem to want to take their part of Ukraine-- Crimea, from what I'm told-- and secede from Ukraine in order to join Russia. Russia has an interest in supporting this since, in truth, Moscow wasn't all that pleased with the breakup after the Soviet Union fell apart in the first place. Getting back some territory would appeal to Moscow.

The claim that the Separatists are using Russian hardware is a little silly--- really, where else would they get it. Ukraine is using Russian-made hardware too, as it happens--- since as a former Soviet-bloc nation they have an abundance of Russian hardware.

So, which side to you like the best? Or, maybe the question should be which side do you dislike the least? The Ukraine side, presently governed by people who got there by coup and who may have Nazi leanings, or the Separatists, supported by Moscow and Putin, who may have residual Soviet leanings? "Choose yer p'isin an names yer pick."

Not too far away for the winter to start. As before, general winter will be at the Russian side and poor ones those that depends from Russian gas.
Ukraine, the Baltic countries, Poland, even Germany...
Better krake and ersi to shop for blankets now while prices don't turn stratospheric.

Actually there is no definitive documentation about weapons supplies. The NATO lot came out with the stuff that information may point to Russia but cannot be A1 definite about the 'claim.' They simply trot out what Kiev tells them instead. I pointed out the pictures above which were on the Media included Russians "facing Ukraine" but not in it and none of them tell us exactly where. A whole convoy of heavy Russian vehicles such as tanks would be widespread as are pictures of conflict and so on.

Can I also remind that the rebels include volunteers from several countries including Serbia, Czech Republic, France, Russia. Now here is another item for the brain dead who just accept a gullible picture. The Kiev onslaught on it's own people include militia units being paid "privately." Now how about that one? This even appeared in the Times of London which like most mainstream media in the West just trots out anything Kiev tells them and DC nods to.   Kiev made a point of having a coup against a democratically elected government knowing full well the East was no in agreement and they thought they could do a Blitreig but instead they now find themselves in a problem and serves them right. Putin has for the umpteenth time said he does NOT want to incorporate the 2 regions into the Federation but they should have more wider political systems in the Ukraine instead of singly out the East due to the ethnicity there.

Not that this mas any difference to closed minds,. Too many grew up with the Cold War and cannot cope with anything outside of it nor reasonable solutions to the crisis. If you read what the UN has said about the so-called evidence they did not come out and follow NATO. Neither do the time-wasters here show any remorse for the innocent civilians singled out in cities and villages for being killed. Instead what we now get is the number of dead Ukrainian soldiers! They started this damn thing and they are at sixes and sevens. You Cold war fanatics neatly ignored Ukrainian bases and depots captured by the rebels. If Kiev had any common sense they would NOT have barred Russian as a second official language in the East, organised more devolved government after the way the coup lot behaved.

In the coming winter apart from the demoralisation of the Ukrainian Army, lack of supplies and food along with any sensible generals they are in a right state. With a lack of power in the cold winter the population will be further ill-served and the Right Sector wanting as I said to march on Kiev and knock out the Minister of the interior and his staff.

[glow=blue,2,300]Europe ramps up its sanctions ............ Will Russia back down & withdraw, or will they arrogantly plunge deeper & deeper into Ukrainian Sovereign Territory? [/glow]

 
EU leaders deliver sanctions ultimatum to Russia over Ukraine.

Brussels agrees to take 'further significant steps' and impose fresh sanctions if Moscow does not back down in conflict.

European Union leaders have given Russia a week to reverse course in Ukraine or face a new round of sanctions as Kiev warns it is on the brink of full-scale war with Moscow.

Fears are growing that the confrontation on the EU's eastern borders could engulf the whole continent after Russia sent troops to back a new offensive by pro-Kremlin rebels in south-east Ukraine.

The EU president, Herman Van Rompuy, said the 28 leaders meeting in Brussels had agreed to take "further significant steps" if Moscow did not back down.

He said the European commission had been ordered to produce options for fresh sanctions within a week. "Everybody is fully aware that we have to act quickly given the evolution on the ground and the tragic loss of life of the last days," Van Rompuy told a news conference.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, said the new sanctions would build on existing measures against Russia......Continued

Does Europe have the balls to stand up to Vlad?

Are they willing to experience an icy cold winter, & the numerous resulting deaths if Vlad retaliates by cutting off oil & gas supplies while he flexes his Imperialistic Talons around the Ukraine?

What former Soviet Union country will he invade next if Europe doesn't unite to stop him in his tracks?

Don't expect Obama to lift a pinky to help ..... he'll rattle his saber, but little else. The ball is squarely in Europe's court.

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hilander.gif)   RJ must be tickled pink red. Him & his Borscht Buddy might just be
splittin' beets & potatoes smothered in sour cream soon!  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hilander.gif)

Are they willing to experience an icy cold winter, & the numerous resulting deaths if Vlad retaliates by cutting off oil & gas supplies?

The Russians probably overestimate the cold of our winters. :P

Unlike the rest of it's clients Russia gave Ukraine a pretty good discount for long enough and that lot still couldn't pay it so tells something obvious about the closed minds in Kiev. As for sanctions a waste of time as they just bounce back as there would be even further retaliation from Russia. Europe is already in a mess and I watched a German business leader being quite direct and at odds with the government line. Europe especially is having a problem and in the longer term could lose out even further as Russia will sell things elsewhere in the Far East and in S. America for example. With all the exaggeration going on about terrible Moscow and the way some here in the West are so gullible one can realise how easy war is. Don't get too cocky SmileyFaze just you keep killing each other over the pond and get distracted.

Mind you Russia would be quite right if it shut oil supplies to Europe considering no matter what they say or do they are automatically the bad guys. Putin bent over backwards on pressing the billions owed from Ukraine on the murder of innocents in East Ukraine on suggesting a diaalgoue on local autonomy. He has NEVER said they should be separate something that is studiously missed here, surprise, surmise.  It kind of suits the WEest's leader the USA to believe any lie out of Kiev against Russia because they cannot kow-tow tyhat country to them and it distracts the tens of millions of Americans left in the corners of the land of the free and home of the brave. On today's world more like a comedy sketch phrase.

Kind of funny that Washington wants to bark on about Russia and ignore the civilians being done in, starving and so on. They couldn't care a damn about the legions of their own citizens never mind the Ukrainians being killed. Now the Ukrainian Army is whimpering about being chased. A bit different when they appeared on television in convoys giving waves and thinking they were going to do the storm trooper stuff.

Don't expect Obama to lift a pinky to help ..... he'll rattle his saber, but little else. The ball is squarely in Europe's court.

I think it's time for some military exercises involving a fleet of aircraft carriers and 50,000 or so Marines. Notify Russia of our military "practice" so we're not directly threatening them, of course. Just a routine practice, with capability of launching a D-day against separatists. If Putin's claims there are no Russian forces in Ukraine are correct (which evidence shows otherwise), Putikins has nothing to worry about.

Maybe we need to make sure the ICBMs are in operational order too. After Howie's would-be gay lover is done changing his shorts, suddenly there really will be no Russian troops there and no Russian military equipment crossing the border.

Putin will understand this is brinksmanship, but won't be able to escalate it any further.

Now we move to the ridiculous.

So if the US was to land 50,000 troops on a claim of a Russian invasion that would prove Russia being in there? Heavens are you real? The tendency by West politicians and ably helped y the media is "there is every good chance Russia has invaded."  Even coming out with such nonsense without seeing vast columns deep in Ukraine is totally farcical. They aren't there sonny. On a lesser basis you think that your Marines are of course the greatest in the world (yawn on usual brain dead stuff) but are totally ignorant of the fact that Russia has special units that are just as much of a match for your lot. If I was Ukrainian I would be worried by the record of those marines in Afghanistan and elsewhere pop-shooting locals.

The mawkishness of such military blabbering is a groan and insulting. I know you lot worship anyone in a uniform to the point of kindergarten levels but don't get carried away. Those Marines stormed ashore in Somalia with the media and cameras clicking from the media but left in a much different and quieter way. You seem so keen on a war because of the Imperialistic US Empire mentality and nobody has a right to challenge. There is no Russian invasion so do try and get out the childish syndrome of whoopee a war.

This thread is based on a must admit, brilliant style lie. Just like we were told Iraq had those dangerous weapons. Like Sir Winston Churchill I would prefer jaw-jaw to war-war.

Like Sir Winston Churchill I would prefer jaw-jaw to war-war.

Unfortunately, Churchill's adversary wasn't impressed by his jaws.

I never said for the Marines to actually land. I just said military exercises in the Black Sea. Ukraine claims Russia columns crossing the border, send jets from the carriers to check them out. Get photos of the existence or non-existence of the Russians. Obama calls the Kremlin before hand "Hey, Vlad, the Ukrainians claim you have guys there again. We're just sending a squadron to check it out but won't fire unless fired upon. Now is there anything you'd like to tell me?" Why would Vladimir the Innocent possibly object? It could possibly absolve him.

You did make a more interesting and sensible point there Sanguinemoon. That is that that Ukraine "claims" the Russian Army has invaded. It only emphasises my point that in the Iraq War it was claimed that Sadam had dangerous weapons. Wasn't true but everyone just believed the maniac hype and Iraq is still in a mess. The earlier comment from mjsmsprt40 about me not producing evidence? I am the one stating definitively that there has been no massive invasion by Russia at all. Indeed, i pointed out the pictures being circulated included inside Russia (!) and that there was no place etc given with them so what don't you figure about that Chicago man?

Oh, of course you could send folk on exercises because that is what you do all the time being a self styled global imperialist and only your corner has the truth. Bet Moses is turning in his grave. Anyway that would be a daft move on your country's part as Russia is not a pushover even though it grates that there are the odd countries that do not kow-tow to your imperialism. Why you would want to do such oddness is something else and all based on "claims." There have been voices in europe who are not that certain about hyping things up and I think that NATO should have been abolished ages ago. Over 70% of it's cost comes from the USA which is already in heavy debt.  Neither are countries willing to agree with it's rules on a 2% spending on military which says something too.

First it was sanctions on flimsy evidence and that has backfired on Europe which is suffering. Now talk about more silly sanctions which will be responded to by Putin again. It is also laughable that Ukraine wants to join NATO and how will it pay for that one? it cannot even neet the fuel bills even on a discount.  Now something like 2.2 million people in Ukraine have been effected by the military games. Over 800,000 fled to Russia and hundreds of thousands of others displaced from homes bombed by Kiev. Remember your pal the Kiev President said civilians would be safe?

Considering that West Ukraine wants into Europe (that financial disaster are - hey, maybe suited for Ukraine!) and the East does not so try and answer that one. The East has been treated disgracefully right from the start and that along with the civilian situation gets ignore both by politicians and the would-be know-it-alls here.

Being gung-ho like in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, etc has resulted in one mess after another so I would suggest that you do try and keep the soldier boys out of the frame.

am the one stating definitively that there has been no massive invasion by Russia at all.

Nice modifier. I guess it even penetrated your concrete skull that Russian troops are indeed operating in Ukraine.

The US imperialist, blah, blah, despite the fact that I'm proud of the UK's imperial past with a imperial land area even larger than Rome...

Not worthy of comment :p

Considering that West Ukraine wants into Europe (that financial disaster are - hey, maybe suited for Ukraine!) and the East does not so try and answer that one. The East has been treated disgracefully right from the start and that along with the civilian situation gets ignore both by politicians and the would-be know-it-alls here.

What on Earth makes you even begin to think Ukraine would be better off allied with Russia than the EU?

Note the economic predictions the Euro Zone were actually revised upwards (http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/weo/2014/update/01/), whereas Russia's had to be revised downward by a full percentage point (not to 99% of what it was, but from a 3.5% growth rate to 2.5% - a forecast drop of ~1/3.) Meanwhile better integration into Europe would provide better access to the US Market, which ranks among the better growth of advanced economies. You complain of Neo-Nazis, etc in Ukraine. Closer links to the West would gradually reduce public sympathy for such groups as values such liberty, freedom of the press, etc grow.  But it's up to the Ukrainians to decide their country's future, not Putin and no, not Obama either. But Putin right now is the aggressor for a couple reasons 1) his slumping support at home needed a boast and he got it by through nationalist pride and 2)he feels threatened by Russia's diminishing sphere of influence via NATO expansion and EU expansion.

I think it's time for some military exercises

You mean in addition to:

Cold Response (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-26627368) "Nato's Cold Response exercise involves thousands of soldiers from 16 different countries training together in the Arctic Circle. Following the Western withdrawal from Afghanistan, the military alliance is returning to the type of winter warfare drills that were used during the Cold War."

Unified Vision (http://www.natowatch.org/node/1492) "The largest ever test of NATO’s joint intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (JISR) capabilities took place at Ørland Air Station in Norway between 18 and 28 May."

Northern Coast (http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/defence/nato-vessels-headed-by-lithuanian-officer-will-take-part-in-exercise-northern-coast-2014.d?id=65702668) "The large-scale annual Exercise Northern Coast 2014 trains naval, air, land and special units from NATO and European Union's member states. This year the exercise is organised by the Finnish Navy and involves 50 warships of various types, 10 aircraft, and roughly 3 thousand land and special forces personnel from 14 countries."

Sabre Strike (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140903/DEFREG01/309030032/Nordic-Baltic-Region-Leans-More-Toward-NATO?odyssey=nav%7Chead) "A soldier from the US Pennsylvania National Guard, left, speaks to a Lithuanian soldier as they take part in a field training exercise during the first phase of Saber Strike 2014, at the Rukla military base, Lithuania, on June 14. The Western military alliance launched one of its largest military maneuvers in the ex-Soviet Baltic states since tensions with Moscow spiked over its annexation of Ukraine's Crimea peninsula. NATO has promised to increase the frequency and size of military exercises in the region."

Black Eagle (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-28530283) "The UK is to send a "full battle group" of 1,350 military personnel for exercises in Poland, amid rising tension with Russia over Ukraine. They will take part in Nato manoeuvres in October to support allies in Eastern Europe, Defence Secretary Michael Fallon said during a trip to Warsaw. It is the UK's largest such commitment to the region since 2008. Mr Fallon said Britain was playing a "central role" in responding to Russian actions in Ukraine."

Rapid Trident (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/09/02/us-ukraine-crisis-exercises-idUSKBN0GX23Q20140902) "As fighting between the army and Russian-backed rebels rages in eastern Ukraine, preparations are under way near its western border for a joint military exercise this month with more than 1,000 troops from the United States and its allies. The decision to go ahead with the Rapid Trident exercise Sept. 16-26 is seen as a sign of the commitment of NATO states to support non-NATO member Ukraine while stopping well short of military intervention in the conflict."

All these, and probably more, exercises are at the Russian border. The last one is in Ukraine.

Yup. in addition. Actual capacity to invade the Eastern Ukraine and take it from the rebels. But I guess we'll see if Putin is actually sincere in these latest peace talks. He hasn't been sincere and lied through his teeth this whole time, though. No, Howie, I don't mean something as simplistic as "everything Kiev and Washington is true and everything from Moscow is a lie." I mean actual proven lies from him, starting with those weren't Russian troops in Crimea.

Cold Response (http://Cold Response) "Nato's Cold Response exercise involves thousands of soldiers from 16 different countries training together in the Arctic Circle.

Finally someone with a strategic vision at Nato. I'm sure Santa Klaus will be stopped this Christmas.
Good news.

Well Sanguinemoon. You are an ordinary American Joe so thick skulls will be something you grew up with so one can hardly expect anything else. All the usual mince about principles, rights, freedoms,morality. You have done a dance on them for generations. Just to accept without any real thought is a bit much. I dare say you went along with the iraq weapons of mass destruction guff as if genuine? When you consider the wars you have created and the mess-ups afterwards do keep out of this militarily please. Russia is too big to try that Neanderthal thinking.

There is a more basic issue here that you and others need to address and that is there are two major internal thinkings inside Ukraine. The west of the country wants to be in Europe and that mes called the EEC and NATO. On the other hand the East does not want to be in Europe, NATO or the EEC due to strong commercial ties and tradition with Russia. Try solving that instead of rattling sabres please.  Remember too that a democratically elected government in Kiev was illegally overthrown so kind of makes a mockery of the West's stance on democracy, rights, etc.  Can you try and face the deep divide there is inside Ukraine? As long as the mouthing President in Kiev ignores local democracy there will be a problem. You have individual States so why not Ukraine?

On a more general thing NATO is old fashioned, pointless and looking for new places to march about looking tough. I would rather the UN did that than a limited viewpoint. Those who ar in NATO and besdie Russia have been stirred up to "worry" about Russia even though the Federation has given not a word about interfering with them - especially the Baltic States and Poland for example. When you get slightly further away from Russia there is a more careful stance.  The countries that make up NATO doo NOT want to get to 2% of their GDP on the military so says something there as well. Meanwhile youe country will go on paying over 70% of NATO and try and find situations or create them to justify the spending - or maybe keep the corporate military industry up to scratch.

A while ago, I stated that Ukraine had to accommodate the 2 eastern provinces due to the deep division between east and west of the nation and that if Kiev was incapable to do anything there due to the neo-Nazi input at Kiev then a split would be next. Concerned as I am about all the innocents being killed and homes and infrastructure being destroyed, hundreds of thousands suffering I would prefer still jaw-jaw.

I dare say you went along with the iraq weapons of mass destruction guff as if genuine?

Nope. You didn't read me saying those didn't exist? Bush lied repeatedly so I was against him. Now Putin's being caught in lies. Why is this hard for you? Because you read in RT that Americans simply believe what Washington tell them? If that's the case, your Russian friends don't understand Americans at all.

On the other hand the East does not want to be in Europe, NATO or the EEC due to strong commercial ties and tradition with Russia.

There's no reason that Eastern Ukrainian enterprises can't continue doing business in Russia or continue following their traditions. Now no country can be in the EEC because it doesn't exist :left: But being in the EU, which at this te point Ukraine isn't ready regardless, and closer ties to Europe should expand business opportunities for all. Only doing business with your ethnic group is an antiquated and unprofitable notion in most cases.

Try solving that instead of rattling sabres please.

That's all Putin listens too. Europe holds an emergency meeting and brings the possibility of building an international force; Putin suddenly tell the rebels to stop and tries harder for peace. Coincidence?

Just in: Estonian secret police agent kidnapped by unknown Russians on Estonian territory (http://www.postimees.ee/2910947/kaitsepolitseinik-viidi-eesti-territooriumilt-relva-ahvardusel-venemaale)

The Estonian agent was on duty with tasks concerning cross-border crime. The act of kidnapping was accompanied by active radio transmission interruption and smoke grenades by Russians. The secret police authorities began the press conference on this topic right now.

Ukrainian ceasefire is making int'l headlines now along with the Estonian border incident (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29078400)

The FSB in Moscow told Russian news agencies that a Kapo official named Eston Kohver had been detained on Russian territory and was now being investigated.

He was, the FSB said, carrying a pistol, 5,000 euros (£3,980; $6,539) in cash, an eavesdropping device and "other materials related to intelligence-gathering".

The Estonian daily Postimees said the missing Kapo official had been involved in tackling cross-border crime.

The kidnappers jammed Estonian radio communications and used a smoke grenade during the incident, reports say.

Estonians say the abduction occurred on the Estonian side of the border. The Estonian agency Kapo has confirmed the name. There are old news about him from 2010 when he received an honorary medal from the president.

The Estonian incident is a serious one. Estonia is on the front line, as also this article points out, The Estonian Spymasters (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141521/michael-weiss/the-estonian-spymasters).

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.foreignaffairs.com%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2F800x%2Fimages%2FWeiss_Tallinn.jpg&hash=8ccbea50f292f0da004a70e84c5ab433" rel="cached" data-hash="8ccbea50f292f0da004a70e84c5ab433" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.foreignaffairs.com/files/imagecache/800x/images/Weiss_Tallinn.jpg)

Unfortunately Sanguinemoon the country guilty of the most flagrant sabre-rattling is your own. One war or military mess after another for years. All in the name of that usual word "our security" or "our interests." Now that one is nearer the mark due to the influence of corporate business!

This whole Ukrainian fiasco was created by Ukraine itself! They caused a coup against an iffy President who was democratically elected! Then Kiev cancelled out Russia as a second official language knowing full well that would not go down well across the east of the country. Neither did the east get asked if they wanted to be part of the coup may I also remind. None of this was democratic nor principled but the West led by your country totally ignored all the stuff about proper procedures, democracy and so on. When the provinces in east Ukraine raised their voices about being stifled they were met by an ultra-nationalist surge from Kiev. The country is very deeply divided with the 2 provinces of the east more linked with Russia and the west more to do with looking west. So how do you solve that one?

The only logical way (as said by President Putin a while ago) was to give some autonomy within Ukraine itself but nope, Kiev was determined to strom boot any objections. With such a deep divide a sensible government would have been more into dialogue but they decided to storm the east and put them under the gun. Unfortunately for them this has not turned out they way they want and now dialogue MAY be on the table because the Ukrainian President knows he cannot squash the 2 rebel provinces militarily. The other night I watched a repprt where the crew were with the Ukrainians side then it  was mentioned in passing that the military unit was NOT part of the regular army but an extreme right is neo-Nazi lot paid for privately. You and others here are so lamdasting that the Russian military is in there but choose to ignore things such as these.

And this whole situation is like a carbon copy of the Iraq fiasco. The West led the guff about the serious weapons issue and then the media joined in hyping it all up based on fairy stories to give the uniform lot a chance to go shooting at someone. All this invasion baloney is as bad as the Iraq matter and it is so alike  you could say 'snap.' Some 2 million in Ukraine are effected and large numbers of totally innocent people are dead, homeless or lacking food and water but then they don't count on this thread it is all about going along with the propagandist mindset against Russia.  For all the aded hype from the NATO circus in Wales the vast majority in NATO are making no effort to produce the 2% military budget rule. Obama and Cameron are to the closer and thinking eye a couple of fused up clowns and can huff and puff all the imagined fairy tales but Russia will not be cowed into submission because the gold ole US of A wants that and gets irked at countries that don't accept what it wants.

So Kiev either has to talk about devolving or the civil war starts up again and hell mend it. Much of the industry was in the east yet in the idiots stormed destroying everywhere. What a farce.

The Estonian incident is a serious one. Estonia is on the front line, as also this article points out, The Estonian Spymasters (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141521/michael-weiss/the-estonian-spymasters)

Yes, a serious incident but with difficult interpretation... an Estonian secret services agent (presumably an important one) is kidnapped by a Russian commando, inside Estonia, James Bond style... It can only be a master plan from Ersi's brain giving Estonia the perfect excuse for invading Russia :)

It can only be a master plan from Ersi's brain giving Estonia the perfect excuse for invading Russia :)

You really don't know my brain. I prefer to invade Sweden. To normalise the living standards.

You really don't know my brain. I prefer to invade Sweden. To normalise the living standards.

I really don't, in my mind invading Sweden makes all the sense but it would be only for the Swedish girls, I see nothing else of interest. :)

Good to know that Estonian authorities, unlike the rest of western ones, don't use to engage in those discreet exchange of spies and prefer simply to arrest Russian spies and jail with them for fifteen or twenty years.
One understands that Russians gets pissed off with it and decides to call their 007 agent to a mission in Tallinn.

That's a good title for a spy fiction romance, A Mission in Tallinn.

You're another being brained by the propaganda experts in the West. The Baltic States are conjuring up all sorts of cobblers because of their history in the old USSR. Why you think spying up there is any different than anywhere else shows your closed mind.

This is all part of the NATO slog in justifying it's existence and that it also thinks it has some given right to be the world interferer. Now we are being told that by the end of 10 years all members of NATO will meet the 2% status. Kind of funny that one as that is supposed to be what they were to be doing! Anyway the whole thing about NATO is an expensive and ridiculous waste of money and out of place these days. Russia is not going to invade the Baltic States, Poland, etc and the US wants to keep NATO in place to bolster it's brain dead idea it has the right to be the world's decider on anything. That it contributes over 70% of the cost when the country is in deep, deep financial problems only emphasises it's imperialism. Heavens, I thought Obama, Kerry, Cameron were bad enough but when you see that Secretary General of the Alliance it has become a modern Marx brothers style lot.

Russia is not going to invade the Baltic States, Poland,

or Crimea.

Oh dear something wrong when the intelligent get conned! And you know fine well the Crimea wanted BACK in Russia and therefore got it's wish. It seems only Referendums that suit the US are permissible and anything out of that scenario is a front to morality. Now your country is ignoring sovereignty itself (as it does in a regular way) by organising bombing inside Syria.

And now NATO that other US excuse is creating all sorts of would-v=be threats as an excuse to put troops or bases up to the Russian border. Now the US led poodles are listing more sanctions against the Russian Federation which yet once again will retaliate and of course it doesn't effect America. In Europe German industrialists are nipping at Merkel due to the loss of business as are farmers and others across the EEC.It is the European taxpayer who is also going to suffer due to taxation to cover financial losses. In the longer term some may never get back to the great trade they had with Russia as that nation wil do their dealings elsewhere. Russia is talking about banning car imports and may also include banning flights across Russian teritory. Sanctions are not going to work and Russia is far too big to try and keep out of the global perspective. It is one of a handful of countries that cock a snoot at the would-be world rulers.

As for that completely arrogant, nationalistic head-banger and lost the plot idiot who is Ukraine's Prime Minister! He conjures up lies continually to keep Obama and poodles on the ball. Coming out with this laughable rubbish that Russia wants to destroy Ukraine. It would be the simple minded who take that mince in.  Kiev didn't care a damn about the Southeast of their land at all after initially acting illegally. When that area took exception they were not spoken with the Kiev lot just went into storm trooper mode to blitize much of the place to pieces. However the last few weeks have seen the Ukraine offensive very much on a different plane now and that is Kiev and the West's fault. Two nights ago, I watched a news item from the conflict and it included the private units on the Ukraine side which were neo-Nazi to the core. Why is there no condemnation of the using of those people? On their helmets, many had as mall swastika and others SS symbol. However all the samrt alexs on this forum are happy enough to say nothing about those thugs.

Someone, who's bed some in this forum would gladly put their brogs under. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/imthinkin6.gif)


Кто я??      (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Frjo5nH2.gif&hash=0d66f2c8fa07f72eb9d3f43d51a32a26" rel="cached" data-hash="0d66f2c8fa07f72eb9d3f43d51a32a26" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/rjo5nH2.gif)   нет! I ain't nobody's stinkin' Borscht Buddy, now конфетка pass the potatoes & sour cream! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

Typical American especially neo-con brain dead mentality. Making these stupidities about Putin gives you something to aim at as you are getting short of those you can attack. In the case of Russia a military solution is not on so this rubbish and childish mentality is the thing. Every time there is an example like this kindergarten propaganda it shows how dumb so many Americans have sadly become. They just soak up what the media wants to pump into them and that media is controlled by the corporate mindset. Russia is too big and global to kick around like you do with much else in the world so it is frustrating for the limited minds. As for the poodles that don't want to fall out with you in Europe that is another joke. The sanctions dumped on Russia will not work but individual countries of the EEC are feeling the pinch by Russia's return salvoes.

It really is so ridiculous for a country like America where if you don't have money or two or three jobs you can forget a decent living to try and claim morality in it's policies to others. Russia like China will not cave in but your allies will suffer more than you. Hypocrisy should have been added to that consitution bit of groaning paper called a constitution. Anyway, the Russian Foreign Minister has for ages been trying to get a peaceful outcome after the ultra-nationalist regime in Kiev did what the US wanted and try and blitzreig many of it's own people. A while ago I said Kiev either has to try and accommodate the part of the Ukraine population which it was trying to press down or it would lose the provinces concerned.  Now it has been bruised and had to have a cease fire the chances are now the government has so alienated and destroyed so many people and infrastructure a part may be lost. Serves Kiev and it's cums in DC right as they started this fiasco.

With the mindset of gung-ho Smiley and his corner Russia will be damned no matter what it says and thus only shows the limited mindset across the pond. Over two centuries plus and you still haven't grown up. :down:

Two Russian bombers were intercepted yesterday in Portuguese air space by our Air Force jet fighters and forced to leave national air space. (Why they weren't immediately shoot down is a mystery to me.)

Those bombers didn't presented a flight plan and never answered to call for identification. Besides national security they are a danger for commercial airplanes.

The last days occurrences like this one have been reported at several European countries.
Putin is moving.
Ukraine it's peanuts, they always were Russians.

Two Russian bombers were intercepted yesterday in Portuguese air space by our Air Force jet fighters ...

Simply put, that's a lie. Neither the first one in this thread nor probably the last one.

Why they weren't immediately shoot down is a mystery to me.

Maybe because of this, dear Portuguese hero:

On Wednesday, NATO aircraft, including Portuguese, tracked Russian aircraft over the Atlantic, the Black Sea and the Baltic. There has been no violation of NATO air space, ...

Even your Defence Minister Jose Pedro Aguiar-Branco had to admit that there was no violation of Portuguese airspace.

Two Russian bombers were intercepted yesterday in Portuguese air space by our Air Force jet fighters and forced to leave national air space.

Hmm, when I read the news it said they were getting close, so fighter jets went there to make sure they stay out.

(Why they weren't immediately shoot down is a mystery to me.)

For one because they never entered Portuguese air space. And even if they did they'd just be escorted out with some diplomatic bitching sent to the Russians.

Even your Defence Minister Jose Pedro Aguiar-Branco

You're talking about an idiot and traitor like all ministers since the leftist revolution forty years ago that destroyed the Country.
I don't care if Russians were millimetrical over our air space or not, where our jet fighters rules, our jet fighters rules, simple as that.

Do you know where's Portugal? what the hell are Russian bombers doing here? defending their borders? Do you see Portuguese bombers approaching Russia and refusing to identify?
We even had to intercept Russian bombers (that was done with our planes at Nato's service) in Estonian skies.

Stop defending Putin, start defending yourself, Krake.
Putin is testing, only a strong and firm answer will demote him of his plans.
Estonians ( and others) knows perfectly that they will be attacked by Russians and, worst, they know that neither EU or Nato will defend them. At least Portugal does what it was expected to do.

Do you know where's Portugal? what the hell are Russian bombers doing here? defending their borders? Do you see Portuguese bombers approaching Russia and refusing to identify?

Hear, hear!

Portuguese air force.

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi1355.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fq710%2Faero79%2Faircraft%2Fpictureimg055_zps9e5473b7.jpg&hash=d6c0717f567f997b31ee97ed1872f26c" rel="cached" data-hash="d6c0717f567f997b31ee97ed1872f26c" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i1355.photobucket.com/albums/q710/aero79/aircraft/pictureimg055_zps9e5473b7.jpg)

Portuguese cars are more impressive.

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2F5xaOcLxW5dkLjI8esMw%2Fgiphy.gif&hash=87a80de13366c0a7f2c56893915521a2" rel="cached" data-hash="87a80de13366c0a7f2c56893915521a2" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://media.giphy.com/media/5xaOcLxW5dkLjI8esMw/giphy.gif)

To be fair the US at least among the NATO countries play the same game, for instance with China. It is pretty far to Hawaii from here, and the US colonial history in China is long ago.

To be fair the US at least among the NATO countries ...

Among the NATO countries? :)
NATO = Military Industrial Complex aka The USA

The Standing Army: [video]http://www.youtube.com/embed/Vm3JA9GOYf0[/video]

This one is a harmless documentary from 2010. I'll refrain for now from posting less harmless documentaries since I don't intend to harass (too much?) our posters from over the pond.

Portuguese air force.

Composed by American F something airplanes.... 
I always said we should get rid of that crap and buy some decent French Dassault-Mirage.

Portuguese cars are more impressive.

You must refer to the German Pandur ones we bought and you were not even able to deliver... as usual... 

Besides the usual German-American ridiculous, the good thing is to see Putin playing the big potency and overflying Europe. That's exactly what's needed to raise self defense spirit and build resistance, you're welcome mr Putin, keep on doing it.
One of these days he will be overflying Alaska... there, it will generate panic.

You must refer to the German Pandur ones we bought and you were not even able to deliver... as usual...

You should have posted this in the "Today's Good News" thread because I'm really sick of bailouts.  8)
BTW, WTF for is Portugal needing Pandurs? For attacking Spain or for going fishing?   :left:



Never mind. Those geniuses should know better.  :jester:

NATO = Military Industrial Complex aka The USA

Because innocent little Russia doesn't have one of those, right? :p

Because innocent little Russia doesn't have one of those, right? :p

Neither does Germany. :right:

Quote from: krake on 2014-11-04, 14:45:10

NATO = Military Industrial Complex aka The USA

Because innocent little Russia doesn't have one of those, right? :p

In post-soviet Russia the military-industrial complex is the economy :right:

 :jester: And Putin is the CEO.  :devil:

:jester: And Putin is the CEO.  :devil:

Pretty much. It's not like term limits stopped him.

This is getting funny, today was a Russian ship intercepted by our war vessels at our exclusive economical marine zone.
Always defending the Americans and the Western world - if not us who will do it? :)
(Don't worry, we'll send the bill for that...)
(I mean, the day I rule this piece of shit)

This is getting funny, today was a Russian ship intercepted by our war vessels at our exclusive economical marine zone.

Your exclusive economical marine zones extend into international waters. To be more precise, the Russian oceanic research vessel was intercepted in international waters.

Always defending the Americans and the Western world - if not us who will do it? :)

Don't mix up ordinary Americans and ordinary people living in Europe with NATO.

NATO has for some time now been a liability for the European Union, as it prevents development of concerted European foreign and defense policies, and has forced the member states to become instruments serving American militarism.
source (http://www.unz.com/article/the-ukraine-corrupted-journalism-and-the-atlanticist-faith/)

BTW, defending Europe like the USA/NATO does?

By destabilizing and weakening it by any means? Whom does the civil war in the Ukraine serve? Europe? Whom do the economic sanctions against Russia, enforced by the USA on the EU, serve? Europe? Yes, the sanctions were enforced by the US on the EU! Western Europe tried to bridle but had no chance. Even Joe Biden the  current Vice President of the United States admitted it publicly.
What do you know about the EU? What do you know about the statehood of some of its member states? What do you know about agreements imposed after WWII which are kept top secret but still have validity today? Some of them have never passed through a parliament.  BTW, it's not only about some European countries, ask the Japanese.

Keep in mind Belfrager, ignorance is not something you should proudly brag with!

To be more precise, the Russian oceanic research vessel was intercepted in international waters.

"Precise" is not your middle name, leftist friend.

Don't mix up ordinary Americans and ordinary people living in Europe with NATO.

I mix ordinary Americans, extraordinary Americans, whatever Americans with what I want to.
The problem is not with the Americans, the problem is with the europeans under German domination. Be it the Fuhrer, Merkel or whatever.

Keep in mind Belfrager, ignorance is not something you should proudly brag with!
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=484.68;msg=29430)

Keep in mind Krake, being an useful idiot to Putin doesn't give you any credibility.

I thought you were an intelligent person.
Fucking european world is collapsing. What a destiny, only surviving while battling each others. We stop and we finish.

You and me know that Americans are no part of the equation. Stop accusing them, fight for an European construction, Putin is the one at our doors.
Russians are the enemy, Americans just boys with money, useless these days.

Americans wants to sell you refrigerators, that's the only thing that interests them, Russians wants to put you inside the refrigerator...

Americans wants to sell you refrigerators, that's the only thing that interests them, Russians wants to put you inside the refrigerator...

Don't you see, Belfrager? When we are inside the refrigerator, then we are better protected from Americans! This is how Stalin also meant well when he sent people to Siberia. He protected people from rotten influence. People are meat and meat is better preserved in cold. This is all for people's best. The Czar knows what's good for us.

For sale, woman included.  :)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corbisimages.com%2Fimages%2FCorbis-42-19748053.jpg%3Fsize%3D67%26amp%3Buid%3D982d7cb0-b79b-4e38-8ca5-a020329b3b7a&hash=315afc51421f8d4813fe438c81705583" rel="cached" data-hash="315afc51421f8d4813fe438c81705583" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-19748053.jpg?size=67&uid=982d7cb0-b79b-4e38-8ca5-a020329b3b7a)

You and me know ...

You know nothing.
That's not ignorance from your part dear wanna-be philosopher, it's something much more alarming ... :devil:

All you know is that the world is collapsing because of Putin while nice US boys with tight bags filled with fresh printed $$$ want to sell us some refrigerators. Their military bases around the world must be storehouses for refrigerators and some other goodies.
Serbia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria (just to name the latest customers) have just received their much avaited refrigerators. Now it's time for the Ukraine and for building some new storehouses in Europe ... Iran and others in the line must be patient till it's their turn.

Btw, did you ever had a traumatic experience with a frigid women? It would at least explain how refrigerators came into your mind. Hmm, would have been an interesting case for Sigmund Freud.

Never mind, Belfriger :)

For sale, woman included.

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corbisimages.com%2Fimages%2FCorbis-42-19748053.jpg%3Fsize%3D67%26amp%3Buid%3D982d7cb0-b79b-4e38-8ca5-a020329b3b7a&hash=315afc51421f8d4813fe438c81705583" rel="cached" data-hash="315afc51421f8d4813fe438c81705583" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-19748053.jpg?size=67&uid=982d7cb0-b79b-4e38-8ca5-a020329b3b7a)

This seems to be a luring bargain. :)
Just in case I'm not completely satisfied with the performance of the product - is a Money Back Guarantee included in the selling contract?

is a Money Back Guarantee included in the selling contract?

Sure. Keep the dishwasher (her) as our free gift and come back to look at our selection of ranges and microwaves. (lol)

.... Americans wants to sell you refrigerators, that's the only thing that interests them, Russians wants to put you inside the refrigerator...

Ah - the Cold War - just like old times.  ;)

Dear Krake, your strategic vision is an anecdote and your sense of History totally inexistent.
Go ahead and join the Warsaw Pact. Wake me up when you change your name to Deutsche Demokratische Republik. Or must I say Demokrakish.

Your exclusive economical marine zones extend into international waters. To be more precise, the Russian oceanic research vessel was intercepted in international water Portugal's Navy? s.

So what were they researching? NATO's maritime defense off the Portuguese coast, or was it just the

For sale, woman included.  :)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.corbisimages.com%2Fimages%2FCorbis-42-19748053.jpg%3Fsize%3D67%26amp%3Buid%3D982d7cb0-b79b-4e38-8ca5-a020329b3b7a&hash=315afc51421f8d4813fe438c81705583" rel="cached" data-hash="315afc51421f8d4813fe438c81705583" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.corbisimages.com/images/Corbis-42-19748053.jpg?size=67&uid=982d7cb0-b79b-4e38-8ca5-a020329b3b7a)

The kitchen is pretty cute and has a gas stove, which is a plus. Not to mention the old-fashioned percolator :yes:  But what on earth is she wearing? Itty-bitty shorts, but a jacket? In fairness to her, I've seen women do that in person. The silly things some women will do just to get straight men to notice their legs :p

Wake me up when ...

It doesn't make any sense to wake you up. Whether you are sleeping with closed or open eyes, it makes no difference, neither for me nor for the world. :D

Quote from: krake on 2014-11-06, 12:13:49

Your exclusive economical marine zones extend into international waters. To be more precise, the Russian oceanic research vessel was intercepted in international water Portugal's Navy? s.

If you are quoting me, please do it correctly. It can't be so hard. Is it?

So what were they researching?

I can't tell what they were researching. You will have to ask them.
What I can tell you for sure is that US warships around the world including the Black Sea, and the Asia Pacific aren't on research mission.
However they might be an exquisite sales force of the Pentagon carrying refrigerators.  :left:

So what were they researching? NATO's maritime defense off the Portuguese coast

What Krake has been trying to undervalue and divert attentions from is the high level of recent Russian intrusions and/or incidents geographically ranging from western southern extreme of Europe (Portugal) up to Estonia (mentioning just those incidents that I'm aware and that were turned public.

The reason that I know it is simply because a considerable part of the Northern/Southern Atlantic border are under Portuguese army vigilance and because in the ambit of Nato's cooperation we have currently airplanes patrolling Estonia's area.

While Krake keeps under a psychological condition of reality denial, the rest of you can evaluate the extension of this menace by this graph:
http://apps.washingtonpost.com/g/page/world/two-days-of-russian-aircraft-intercepts/1422/

As comprehensible, Nato's authorities will only reveal a small part of what's happening. but I wonder how Norwegian and English failed in intercepting two Russian bombers that went all over the way down until we stop them.  :mad:

Was not for the Portuguese and Turkish air forces, the ones to stop immediately the Russian bombers and Putin's testing of sending bombers all over Europe would had been an hundred percent successful.

It's obvious that Nato can't keep on being directed by the actual leadership.

While Krake keeps under a psychological condition of reality denial,

Interesting observation and mostly likely correct observation. I merely put it down as Putin partisanship. But the partisanship requires denial, doesn't it?

I can't tell what they were researching. You will have to ask them.

Come now, it can't be hard to Google up their excuse, but I have no interest in doing your homework for you. The correct thing to do would have been to notify the Portuguese authorities about what they were researching and where. Likewise if a Portuguese vessel wanted to research something in waters controlled by Russia.  There's a fair chance that it was indeed a research vessel, just so Prince Vlad can slam the West for overreacting. If it was or wasn't doesn't matter because at the end of the day Russia again was engaging in provocative behavior. Putin needs to go and be replaced by somebody that isn't a crusted over relic of the Cold War, both for the sake Russia and the West.

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-11-08, 10:11:12

While Krake keeps under a psychological condition of reality denial,

Interesting observation and mostly likely correct observation. I merely put it down as Putin partisanship. But the partisanship requires denial, doesn't it?

I don't think Krake to be defending Putin or actively supporting him. If you say Putin made something wrong he will not say no, he didn't, he did well. What krake does is to answer with some "and the Americans? they do even worst"...

More than defending Putin he's criticizing the US. Nothing wrong with that, what turns things concerning is not being able to understand that from two dangerous situations which one is the more preeminent to react to.
The US are a danger to the world but Europeans can live with that, we always did... What we can't live with is Russia menacing us.
Real politick.

Russia threatening us? That's a load of old cobblers Belfrager. All the heat is coming from the West led as always by that imperialist and internally flawed America.  From the start it led the West by the nose because it doesn't like any country not to follow what it thinks is right. It is the biggest hypocrite in the world. The sniping is due to the fact that Russia is too big to lean on and that country is right to stand up for itself. Who was it that supported the hoodlums that rioted in Kiev? The West. Who was happy the properly elected government was overthrown? The West. Who has been going bananas politically and in the media  Ukraine? The West.  No-ne took a blind bit of notice that Ukraine had two aides. One leaning to the West and the other to the East.

The two eastern provinces have always leaned towards Russia for a very good reason that most here do not seem to be aware of while being brained by propaganda. Both those regions wer for centuries part of Tsarist Russia and didn't ask to be dumped in Ukraine. It was also mostly the West that suppied SSmen and others to help the Nazis in WW2. The place has been corrupt for ages and as ususual it is a rich man who is now president of this almost failed State.

Kiev did absolutely zilch about noting the tradition in the east and did their own damn thing so I am not surprised at what has happened and said ages again the present situation would happen due to the Kiev ignorance. The stupid sanctions on Russia has backfired on europe and Merkel now syas there should be no more because her industry is yelling at declines. America as usual led this clamping on Russia and doesn't care a damn that Europe is effected as it doesn't hurt it at all. It isn't Putin who spend half the planet's military bill nor has hundreds of bases all over the bleeding place. Nor send fleets to intimidate it is the West and espeically that hangover from the past, NATO. Since the collapse of the Warsaw Pact NATO has been scrambling to find a war here or there to justify itself. May I remind that it was as a counter to the old USSR?

Now NATO is ranking up excuses to beef up forces as close to Russia as it can. And while the leader of the so-called Free World has tens of millions of poor and such it too is making up all sorts of stories to justify a stance. Unlike countries that get invaded for not bowing to the US and it's corrupt stance Russia will get on with it's corner. Putin has scooped a great deal with China and his South American trip will also be good for business. It will not be intimidated and glad of that.

Kiev regularly dishes out guff and lies and the White House jumps at each daftnness. The last time we were show a distant aerial map it proved nothing now we get a fable about a long convoy of military stuuff including tanks rolling into Ukraine. I am still waiting patiently for proof in this modern world of electronics and such. Putin has an 80% poll rating and what does the US President get? A laugh.

The sniping is due to the fact that Russia is too big to lean on and that country is right to stand up for itself.

Yes... to stand up with their feet on top of you, not on top of me.
Rjhowie, don't let your anti Americanism to blind you, you'll regret it deeply. Were not for the American allies and soon Russian tanks would be all over Europe.

This is a practical business, Europe defense by itself it's an anecdote. Russia spends some twenty or more percent of GDP with weapons and what  Europe does? criticizes the Americans....
There's no chance to resist by ourselves thanks to the idiots that rules the EU.
History will demonstrate it.

But what on earth is she wearing? Itty-bitty shorts, but a jacket? In fairness to her, I've seen women do that in person. The silly things some women will do just to get straight men to notice their legs :p

Goodness man, she's wearing a diaper!

So, you're a leg man?

The cutie is one million on the Scoville scale.
==============================
By the way boys, wondering if anybody here is stricken by Ebola?

... soon Russian tanks would be all over Europe.

With such silly statements you are even surpassing NATO's top propagandists. However, the Pentagon has its agenda, wonder what's yours.

There's no chance to resist by ourselves thanks to the idiots that rules the EU.

All are idiots. We at DnD at least are lucky to celebrate a cutting edge mastermind aka Belfrager. What a shame that Europe doesn't take notice of him and he has to waste his genius on a platform like DnD.

History will demonstrate it.

He is not only a cutting edge mastermind but can also prophesy the future. History will be his witness.
Like Rasputin (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSoxYGrzjXmYtlb2rm3CW_I3l-8pJbCqhGcYeWPviirXjglbxXXnL-Tozo) he is able to predict even the Doomsday. Kudos to him!

Dear DnD posters, the Oracle of Delphi is history, watch out for the new Oracle of Lisbon!

The Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact second edition.
This time will be broken by the Russians... it's fair.

Our Russian friends have little to gain and much to lose. A westward move ain't gonna happen.

At worse for them, the Poles will crush them. :jester:

Goodness man, she's wearing a diaper!

So, you're a leg man?

The cutie is one million on the Scoville scale.

In round numbers, she would be 58.381 percent cuter without the jacket. It only matches in the eyes of heterosexual men because it's white. Unfortunately, most of you guys can barely dress yourself. The stripes ruin it, besides the silliness of wearing a jacket with such a short bottom. Her shirt is white with a pastel floral pattern and would have looked cuter and would have even matched the towels. I showed the picture to Mayor Goodman and she's now banned from Las Vegas.

Yes, arguing about the young lady's fashion choice is less of a waste of time than talking sense into Krake.

In round numbers, she would be 58.381 percent cuter without the jacket. It only matches in the eyes of heterosexual men because it's white. Unfortunately, most of you guys can barely dress yourself. The stripes ruin it, besides the silliness of wearing a jacket with such a short bottom. Her shirt is white with a pastel floral pattern and would have looked cuter and would have even matched the towels.

Your dissertation about a jacket is an intellectual highlight :yes:   Or should I call it an intellectual climax? :no:

I showed the picture to Mayor Goodman and she's now banned from Las Vegas.

Hmmm, is Mayor Goodman a woman or just a transvestite?  :left:
Whatever, tell her next time you show her some pictures that I'm deeply sorry because she got banned from Las Vegas.  :(

What's the thread topic? :doh:

What's the thread topic?

Russians wants to invade Europe under Krake's directives.
Rjhowie also wants to command but nobody takes him seriously...

Hmmm, is Mayor Goodman a woman or just a transvestite?

She's a woman. Her husband. Carol's husband, Oscar, is the former mayor.

What's the thread topic?

I think it's fashion choices. Putin's choice is shirtless while doing superhuman feats. Maybe he's trying to win back the Russian gay vote.

I think it's fashion choices. Putin's choice is shirtless while doing superhuman feats. Maybe he's trying to win back the Russian gay vote.

I don't think so!
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/06/the-hunted-gays-of-putin-s-russia-vicious-vigilantes-and-state-bigotry-close-up.html (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/06/the-hunted-gays-of-putin-s-russia-vicious-vigilantes-and-state-bigotry-close-up.html)

You have lost the plot Belfrager. All that complete rubbish that America stops Russian tanks racing over Europe.  Can I remind you that the USSR is long gone and Russia has nbo interest in invasions and wars - look to the country you acuse me of berating (for good reason). Russia is not all over the damn globe, America is! Hundreds of bases. The trouble is that we in the West were happy enough to see the Communist dictatorship die  and thought we would control Russia like we try to do everywhere - well again usually America. There is no comparison between Russia and the in your face arrogant imperialism of the US and it's stooges politically.  Indeed the internal stae of the USA shows the hypocrisy of it's political system.

Russians are a proud people and good luck to them as they progress. When i listened to Obama on tv warning Russia about acting in an imperial way I could not but shake my head for the blatant ignorance and arrogance of that one from a nation that invades, messes u or controls financially.
#
Russia has no wish to have Ukraine it is a totally stupid thing to proclaim and you coming from a land with a long dictatorship can be partially understood for accepting the dictatorship of the USA. We have also had Boebbels style propaganda over the 2 south eastern Ukraine provinces and that sniping about Russia wanting them. Russia has NEVER said it wants them and in historical fact both those provinces were for centuries in the Imperial Russia of the Tsars. That is why there are so many Russian speakers there but the majority of people in the West don't know that and probably include you!

Kiev treated the east of their country in a bad way right from the start and were hell-bent on going where the west of the country wanted to go and stuff anyone else. Those who sneer at oligarchs should remember this. The Ukraine President is one and for some time that country has been as corrupt as hell. As i said during the 2WW the west of Ukraine was hand in glove with the Nazis the SS, etc. They still mark that so there you are. This winter Ukraine will have heat due to the consideration of terrible Russia. Now the Kiev President has cut off finance to the 2 eastern regions and will only make it worse ass there is much industry there.  Then we have guff about large columns of armour from Russia and anything Kiev says is automatically the Gospel. When Russia produces anything that tes waved away.

Now that corrupt Kiev has ostracised the east of the country they will only drift further away and is all the fault of the Ukraine government and their street fighters illegally taking initial power and stuffing the opinions of the east. in fact it wasn't even noted! It really is utterly beyond understanding for Cameron and Obama and pals waxing on about Russian "ibvasions" when they do that in practice themselves.  So dear Portugal man (and anyone else) it is okay for anything that is rightist like Kiev but anyone else is somehow beyond the democracy pale/

Boy oh boy the way your own country is there will be those who miss Dr Salazar!

You have lost the plot Belfrager. All that complete rubbish that America stops Russian tanks racing over Europe.  Can I remind you that the USSR is long gone and Russia has nbo interest in invasions and wars

KGB remains, this time governing. Good luck trusting them, I don't.
The fact being you need to rely in Americans for defending you, either you like it or not rjhowe.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-11-17, 22:02:08

You have lost the plot Belfrager. All that complete rubbish that America stops Russian tanks racing over Europe.  Can I remind you that the USSR is long gone and Russia has nbo interest in invasions and wars

KGB remains, this time governing. Good luck trusting them, I don't.
The fact being you need to rely in Americans for defending you, either you like it or not rjhowe.

Which government do you trust? Me? Canada, perhaps, but it's among a very small group.

Not everyone in the West that’s running off to fight in Syria and Iraq is joining Islamist radicals. Fed up with scenes of graphic violence, displacement of civilian noncombatants and murderous jihadist rhetoric, some Europeans and North Americans are traveling to Syria and Iraq to help the side they view as the good guys (and gals): the Kurds.

Six Canadian Forces vets are the latest group of outsiders joining Kurdish Peshmerga fighters in their battle against ISIS militants in northeastern Iraq. The veterans, who plan to head to Iraq within a month, say Canada has provided an insufficient military response to what they consider an enemy that needs to be defeated.

Oops!
Governments with very little or no power outside their boundaries are trustworthy internationally. Lately, I'm inclined to trust Portugal and Scotland. I don't trust our Republican friends and am not looking forward their ascendency in the coming year.

Well now dear Belfrager that thingy about us depending on the Americans is an amusing comment from a place like Portugal.

Your former Prime Minister gets arrested at an airport on corruption charges, unemployment is going apoe and even more so amongst the young. On top of that you have only managed to exist due to Brussels and the EEC and made a damn mess of that. Small nations like yours, Ireland and some others have to depend on bigger and better economies like Gt Britain's to subside you small lots.  So living in a banana republic in one hell of a mess and bother kind of dilutes your moral basis for that comment!

From the country with the fastest growing economy in Europe and that dreadful EEC (thanks heavens we kept the pound).  :P

ps. We even gave Ireland a loan of 7 billion pounds on top of subsidising all you wee countries.  :whistle:

ps. We even gave Ireland a loan of 7 billion pounds on top of subsidising all you wee countries

Ireland Seen as Fastest-Growing EU Economy Through 2015 (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/11/04/ireland-seen-as-fastest-growing-eu-economy-through-2015/). Can't keep a Celtic tiger down. :yes: BTW, there's no such thing as the EEC anymore.

Not is not the Celtic tiger any more. To even get where they are now all public employees lost part of their salaries - was it 25%/ Projects still cancelled. On top of that the 7 billion loaned but the British at a resonable rate. When Ireland WAS the tiger it only got there because of the EEC as it was unable to do much itself for decades as fine you know it. They have wiser politicians now which is good but they need the EEC. A throaway line that there is no EEC in the Irish corner is so utterly daft. No EEC? no Ireland. If it wasn't for the bigger economies like ours Ireland would still have been a backwater. Yes there are improvements BUT they are NOT out of the woods yet.

Ireland Seen as Fastest-Growing EU Economy Through 2015 (http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2014/11/04/ireland-seen-as-fastest-growing-eu-economy-through-2015/). Can't keep a Celtic tiger down. :yes: BTW, there's no such thing as the EEC anymore.

It's doing fine. Still has a bit of recovery to do though. Here are the stats for 2004-2012 for the US and six European countries, Iceland, Ireland, UK, Greece, Russia, and Turkey (https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_kd_zg&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:IRL:USA:TUR:GRC:GBR:RUS:ISL&ifdim=region&tstart=1101682800000&tend=1385679600000&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false). The latter is clearly doing best.

I would of course hope that Ireland does improve but at present the fastest growing economy is Great Britain and is even passing the 4th Reich in Berlin. So Ireland will really have to go something to overtake that matter. Apart from us helping subsidise these smaller countries via our financial input we also as I told you all give Ireland an additional local loan. Ireland is certainly not out of the woods yet and I think maybe they and Portugal and others just used the EEC and blew themselves up for going over the top. Public employees reduced salaries, projects are still being held back in Dublin although they have been trying to get the financial house in order via the present government there. There are still housing estates never finished and other buildings lying half finished due to money problems. Somehow i do not think the Irish will fool themselves into another Celtic Tiger slogan due to the disaster of the last one.

As for the rubbish about the Russian armed forces supposed to be striding across Ukraine there was a passing news item that someone in Kiev was admitting this now wasn't factual. There are Russian military in the giant base they had down in Crimea and was there due to a contract and big money that Russia paid Ukraine. It was a neat bit of propaganda that twisted that into something else.

Ukraine is a corrupt, financial disaster and meltdown. All of it's own doing and for all the lies it heaped on Russia it was anxious to get a gas deal with Moscow before their people froze in the winter. Soldiers not getting paid, poor leadership in it as well. Pensioners have as I informed not been paid for months and supposed to live on what? Amidst all the hype we got about Russian oligarchs who is President of Ukraine but one of their own! At least the pensioners in Crimea were glad that the place voted to go back to the country they were taken from as they get regular pensions and equally more than in Ukraine. The hell hole of Ukraine seems to be incapable of doing anything about corruption or even run the place properly and think if they can get into the EEC they will get bucket loads of cash like other places who misused it. It is all very well for Ukraine to lean to the West because it is run by basket-cases and criminals but it is the European and American taxpayers who will have to dish it out.

That Kiev took absolutely no notice of the 2 south east provinces after the illegal takeover and proceeded to smile at the West shows how undemocratic the country has become. I think the 2 regions should keep away from Kiev and they still have money making industry there too. The split in Ukraine is due to mismanagement and arrogance in Kiev and is it's fault was has happened not Russia's.

Ukraine is a corrupt, financial disaster and meltdown.

You mean it's like Russia? The Ruble is sliding against the dollar and the economy is heading into recession because of the sanctions and declining oil prices. The American neo-cons wanted more aggressive military action (so 20th century), but against an enemy like Russia you destroy their economy.

Ha, ha you are brilliant!A Yank labelling another country corrupt!  :lol:

Your country is politically corrupt nationally on the 'Hill and locally in a number of States. If I remember correctly, Illinois for example has hade a series of sacked governors, etc. In matters international itis the same. You don't like countries which will not allow you to influence them and this is based on financial greed and commerce. So you will then nsipe at them and sometimes block them and from time to time finance oppositions in those places or directly invade. Mind you each time you have led this you have left a mess. Even in Iraq you "trained" their armsy and they fled!

The present day attacks on Russia are because you have a country that is totally independent of you and your corporate greed merchants so gets up your nose. You pressurised Europe to have the embargo woth Russia even though there are countries in the EEC who are suffering themselves! But they you lot don't give a tinker's curse as you don't need to trade with Russia. The dummies in Europe who slavishly allow that are off their chumps. How principled is that practice?

If you are going to go hell bent on another country then sort your own first. You contradict your own contsitution on freedoms, rights and much else. Some 40 million poor a million a year losing homes, probably top of the league for jailing people and executions (China?), in debt to Communist China big league. Keep people on death row for 10 years, run a concentration camp in a country that doesn't even want you there. One of our own citizens is stil there even though President GW Bush said there was no case to answer but he is still imprisoned 11 years. There are many others with no charges against them but locked up for a decade. Yet another corporation of the idea of law and justice.

When Russia destroyed the obnoxiousness Soviet system you seen it as an opportunity for commerce but got a bit iffy when unlike elsewhere you were not going to dictate. Bully for the independent minded Russians Having grown up in a Cold War situation like so many over the pond it was so easy for your masters to rub negatives about the new Russia.  Can I also remind you of America pre-WW2? As it modernised it produced one hell of a lot of internal disasters. The KKK with a 10 digit membership and which got away with, well murder as they were in important political and law positions. The En-American Committed which destroyed the lives of many and persecuted famous people. So much for democracy!  corrupt police all over the place in the pay of the Mafia, the farce of the Prohibition ear - and that was where the father of one of our Presidents mad his starting money (the hypocrite Kennedys). Oh and another President who had to resign.

The corruption that had existed for a time in Russia is being tackled and people sacked and jailed and is part of the change and modernisation that is taking place. You just have to look at modern vids of the cities and see the traffic jams which are very different from USSR days with everything State controlled and no traffic jams! You Sanguinemoon have unfortunately been easy like so many of your countrymen fell intro the clever propaganda of your own immoral politicians and hysteric anti-Russian media. It is encouraging that their are folk in America not that easily brain pumped but don't sneer at an independent and proud country that is changing and it takes time. What I have detailed above is an abbreviation of your recent history and you like others come on here as if morally and historically lily-white??!!  :(

Ha, ha you are brilliant!A Yank labelling another country corrupt!

Ah, in the other topic ersi said,

Odd only for those who have no clue about corruption. I imagine that in a country, such as yours, where ministers step down for accidentally having bought socks with the state/party credit card instead of with their own, it's hard to imagine the blatant corruption of some other country, such as mine, e.g. a guy who just pocketed the money of a few private banks - private banks whose collapse he orchestrated as the governor of the national bank and used his party's power to avert investigation - becomes the prime minister of the country, then moves on to become EU commissioner. Etc.

So I figured I'd check if there were any statistics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Corruption_Perception_index_2013.png/800px-Corruption_Perception_index_2013.png)

The US doesn't look so bad?

PS A tu quoque is still a tu quoque. :P

No, it doesn't.

The usual caveat though with the map above, it is based on the perception of corruption, which means that when people get serious about tackling corruption the level of corruption will seemingly go up as corrupt affairs will be uncovered.

I second what ersi said, having lived in fairly corrupt countries like the Czech Republic and China (and visited others), while now living in Sweden, considered to be one of the least corrupt countries in the known universe.

There are two types of corruption, those where you have to pay tip to people in influence in your daily life, and misappropriation of duties or finances entrusted to you (that crime is called "economic infidelity" in Norway). This definition doesn't separate between public, private, or organisational corruption, while others would constrain corruption to government officials. The second is often a form of inside robbery, sometimes legal.

The Czechs have added tunneling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunneling_%28fraud%29#Origin) to the vocabulary of words of Czech origin, in the company of robot, pistol, dollar, and polka.

Corruption is a crime of opportunity, so no place would be immune as long as opportunity exists.

Anyway for tall the floss here on corruption, Ukraine IS corrupt and it is laughable when we hear the West waxing about Oligarchs when Ukraine has one in charge itself! It had a problem paying it's wonky army  and cannot even pay pensions to the retired. As for paying what it owes to Russia even for cheaper gas especially arranged for it by Moscow throw that in as well.

Ukraine thinks if it can get into NATO and the EEC it will get handouts when what it should be doing is  getting itself sorted out. That one may prove difficult and it will continue to come out with lies and propaganda to make it look as if it is not a bad boy - it is. Even the illegal coup-de-tat was selective and did not include the south east which shows the restricted morality of Kiev. That the country stiull has ebents to mark Nazi collaborators in WW2 shows the endemic it self created is still there.

Ukraine thinks if it can get into NATO and the EEC it will get handouts when what it should be doing is  getting itself sorted out

It's impossible for Ukraine to join the EEC, since it doesn't exist ;) However, there are entry requirements to join the EU. If Russia would stop destablising the region, maybe Ukraine could get itself sorted out.

Typical Yank brain dead stuff. You lot know little about the outside world apart from what your media drums into you and your political masters. What a ludicrous and nonsensical; statement about Russia trying to destrabilise the region.  Your country had a long and detailed history of such and now you have well proved my assessment on media and political control. Russia for a lengthy time gave Ukraine gas supplies at much lower than anyone else as a help and paid a vast amount for the use of a base in the south and both were financial helps. Even during recent troubles it was still prepared to help fiinancially. It is your lot who are the culprits. You supported an illegal dissolving of a government. It may have been a netavattive one but had been democratically elected. West Ukraine didn't like it so went on the rampage in Kiev and you supoprted that and you have the gall to moan about a properly run referendum self started in that region.  If Crimea had voted to have a strong link with the USA you would be clapping hands on the referendum matter. Your Vice-President went there to boost the headcases in Kiev and when you see someone like that complete off his head buffoon McCain going there to praise that about crowns it!

You really do just absorb what you are brained into and studiously ignore the Kiev oligarch who is President. Had it been a Russian one you would have went nuts. Remember the orange revolution just several years back when the USA nearly fell over itself praising it? Then we found it was just as corrupt and the Prime Minister ended up in the clink. She was a candidate for President and a vicious bitch if ever there was one. The fact that neo-Nazi militias were involved in the National Guard fighting in the south east and as their own militia is neatly ignored. Many came from an extreme lot who wear SS insignia, etc but then that is okay.

Your limited and average over-the-pond view is typical and many wouldn't have a damn clue even where Ukraine is. And to think we used to have a time when we could noddingly smile at Dr Goebells mind controls but it is evident he could have made a fortune in the USA. By jings you are making Smiley look clever!

What yank would that be? Yankees are north of the Mason-Dixon line shown here:

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.studiesweekly.com%2Fonline%2Fimages%2Fpubimages%2F485%2F2243%2Fmason%2520dixon%2520line.jpg&hash=7208546fbdb6a1500eea3d7fa126bc49" rel="cached" data-hash="7208546fbdb6a1500eea3d7fa126bc49" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.studiesweekly.com/online/images/pubimages/485/2243/mason%20dixon%20line.jpg)

That's nowhere near here. No yanks here, I'm afraid.

Yanks are in an even narrower band than that, Sang. Specifically, New England states, particularly Upstate New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts, with New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine thrown in for good measure.

Well sure. I was trying to give poor Howie an easy to use historic boundary. You know how confused he gets about Americans.

You do know that outside of the US, the term is more or less synonymous with American? :P

You do know that outside of the US, the term is more or less synonymous with American? :P

A word of advice: If you're in Chattanooga and you call a person there a "Yankee"---- you'd better have your running shoes on. Just sayin'.

Nope, doing that wouldn't be your smartest move :left:

Oh, I thought the word was unknown in the southern states (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Devil's_Dictionary/Y)? ;)

A word of advice: If ou're in Chattanooga and you call a person there a "Yankee"---- you'd better have your running shoes on. Just sayin'.

I'm in Nashville and there are as many Yankees here as there are Southern Drawlers. I'm thinking of getting a Tennessee tattoo.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmediad.publicbroadcasting.net%2Fp%2Fwuot%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Fcard_280%2Fpublic%2F201311%2FFlag_of_Tennessee.png&hash=a567079acb138454efc7346825521579" rel="cached" data-hash="a567079acb138454efc7346825521579" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net/p/wuot/files/styles/card_280/public/201311/Flag_of_Tennessee.png)

As ever, Jim, the bold innovator.
Tennessee is a place you come from, not a place you go to.

As ever, Jim, the bold innovator.
Tennessee is a place you come from, not a place you go to.

Defying the odds, I came, I saw, I conquered.

Jim, since you're in Nashville-- did you bring a halfway decent acoustic guitar? Gotta have one to sing those songs about how your wife ran off with your best friend, and they took your pickum-up truck and your favorite 'coon hound with them. You're sure gonna miss that truck and hound.

 :lol:

Quote from: tt92 on 2014-12-08, 19:46:00

As ever, Jim, the bold innovator.
Tennessee is a place you come from, not a place you go to.

Defying the odds, I came, I saw, I conquered.

It's all those double letters, isn't it. You were pining for Tallahassee.

When jimbro starts getting into wearing grey everywhere and humming "Dixie", I will be assuming he is trying really hard to fit on, bless him he deserves a quiet time. After all he did teach Yankees so they will appreciate that down there.

I remember a parody of "Dixie."

:sing: I wish I were in the land of cotton
My feet stink
And your's are rotten!
:sing:

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-08, 23:02:58

Quote from: tt92 on 2014-12-08, 19:46:00

As ever, Jim, the bold innovator.
Tennessee is a place you come from, not a place you go to.

Defying the odds, I came, I saw, I conquered.

It's all those double letters, isn't it. You were pining for Tallahassee.

Tallahassee is a good place. Warm. Sunny. Beautiful.

It's all those double letters, isn't it. You were pining for Tallahassee.

And what about double letters in double syllables? Mississippi comes to mind.

Yanks are in an even narrower band than that, Sang. Specifically, New England states, particularly Upstate New York, Connecticut and Massachusetts, with New Hampshire, Vermont and Maine thrown in for good measure.

Depends. It was explained to me more or less like this:
Outside the US Yankee == American
South of the Mason-Dixon line it's anyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line.
North of the Mason-Dixon line it means anyone from the New England area.
In the New England area it's someone with dutch heritage.
The latter may be spurious though, my wife's parents are from Buffalo, they refer to themselves as Yanks even though their grandparents came from Sicily, but wouldn't be caught dead using that term on anyone from further south.

It's all those double letters, isn't it. You were pining for Tallahassee.

It would have to be a pair of double letters, otherwise you might end up with an unexpected visitor to Eurobodalla.

No double letters, but I like syzygy because it has none of those damned vowels.

Ths mn hts vwls.

Myssyssyppy for you.

Ths mn hts vwls.

Try Georgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_language#Words_that_begin_with_multiple_consonants) :left:

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2014-12-10, 11:13:51

Ths mn hts vwls.

Try Georgian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_language#Words_that_begin_with_multiple_consonants) :left:

There are probably good reasons why they say these things about the language, but you never hear it in their songs
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z80ErIhYkZs[/video]

No double letters, but I like syzygy because it has none of those damned vowels.

Ths mn hts vwls.

The  "y"s function as vowels, though :left:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z80ErIhYkZs[/video]

Thanks.  :jester: I love Spanish music. :jester:

 :bye:

That's what I thought until I saw this "fake passport of Uzbekistan" offering.

I've always wanted to crash Uzbekistan without going through the trouble of getting a passport.

Wonder if he can get naked pics of Sarah Palin?

Now, back to the invasion of Ukraine!

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/29/business/international/in-reversal-germany-cools-to-russian-investment.html?action=click&contentCollection=Europe&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/29/business/international/in-reversal-germany-cools-to-russian-investment.html?action=click&contentCollection=Europe&region=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article)

Wonder if he can get naked pics of Sarah Palin?

NSFW (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sarah+palin+naked) :left: :insane:

This "invasion" title is a nonsense except to those brained easily.

Ukraine was in a state before the recent events and is tottering on the edge of financial collapse and has a hard and drastic financial policy via austerity. Pensioners not paid for months, soldiers likewise and corruption the rule of the day. It is also ruled by it's own oligarch as President. Kiev had a coup against a properly elected government even if the leader wasn't that great and when they set up their new system they did no involve the east nor consult and wonder why the 2 provinces were mad. Kiev shot itself in the foot with that thinking as a lot of the heavy industry is in those two areas At least pensioners in Crimea after the place voted to RETURN home get a bigger pension and regularly now. Mind you I would not be surprised if the US taxpayer needed up keeping Ukraine afloat and like other places be viewed as the latest expansion for corporates and such.  :D

The usual caveat though with the map above, it is based on the perception of corruption, which means that when people get serious about tackling corruption the level of corruption will seemingly go up as corrupt affairs will be uncovered.

There's a new 2014 perception of corruption map at http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-01, 19:18:13

Are they willing to experience an icy cold winter, & the numerous resulting deaths if Vlad retaliates by cutting off oil & gas supplies?

The Russians probably overestimate the cold of our winters. :P

But not the heat of our summers.

Entrez-vous, Russian tanks, and boil alive.

Another Western (Finnish) composer of scenarios (https://yle.fi/a/74-20031563) has come up with the following for now:

Scenario #1: Something unexpected will happen to Putin, causing uncertainty regarding the successor. Legally, the prime minister (Mishustin) is next in line, but he'd be a puppet and someone else would be pulling the strings. In Russia, it is illegal to suggest and discuss this scenario.

Scenario #2: Putin stays in power, further tightening his grip and making life worse for ordinary citizens. The war would continue and Russia would keep bringing up the possible use of tactical nuclear weapons. Opposition's underground activities may enliven, but the overall situation would remain largely unchanged for long.

Scenario #3: The elite surrounding Putin gets fed up with the war and replaces him, possibly citing his health as a reason and making the shift appear as orderly and controlled as possible. The overall situation would continue as is. The most favourable moment for this scenario is next year's presidential elections.

Scenario #4: General discontent causes mass protests. Anybody can become next leader. The unrest and chaos may continue for long.

Scenario #5: Regions rebel. The centre would lose power, similar to the times of the collapse of Soviet Union.

Scenario #6: Infighting between the country's military groupings. (Could Prigozhin challenge Putin?)

At the end of the article, you can vote your favourite/likeliest scenario. I voted in agreement with the experts, which is #2. Amazingly, Finns in general also agree.

More scenarios: An American general points out four options for Ukrainian counteroffensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTdOdhKdtBU

In my opinion, Ukrainian counteroffensive has already begun. It began at the latest with the Belgorod diversion (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65683374).^[1] It began silently and cautiously. The desire for victory is strong, but so is the need to avoid mistakes and failure.

The idea about a huge counteroffensive may have been thrown out at first as propaganda to scare Russians. It took on a life of its own and now there is high pressure to make it happen. It was called Spring Offensive, but now we are in summer, so the timing has been a miscalculation. Also, USA finally agreed to give some fighter jets, but if the counteroffensive is to include those, the delivery and training of pilots takes its time. So one way to look at it is that the huge counteroffensive will take some more time to prepare. But in my opinion it already started and this is what it looks like.