The DnD Sanctuary

A bad year for Malaysian Airlines.


Malaysia jet crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856)

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F76336000%2Fjpg%2F_76336959_023191772-1.jpg&hash=29ba3071b4d86ba375405be462211124" rel="cached" data-hash="29ba3071b4d86ba375405be462211124" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76336000/jpg/_76336959_023191772-1.jpg)

The Malaysian flight was packed with Frenzie's compatriots. Condolences.

As far as I know, there's still no official declaration of extraordinary circumstances in the war zone. The Kievite govt should have declared it immediately when Crimea was snatched away. Now there are civilian activities happening in and around the war zone, which is deadly for ordinary people.

Ukraine says this proves the separatists did it.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europe/100000003007434/intercepted-audio-of-ukraine-separatists.html

The calls also indicate they were setting up excuses. The plane was also carrying about 100 people to an international AIDS conference, including several prominent researchers. That's slightly over 1/3 of the passengers.

Even more so as Europe does 10 times the business with Russia that America does but the EEC is whimperingly following the dog's lead and well knows that it will suffer more in money with Russia trade than America.

You're joking right?   [url=http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/russia/] EU trade with the Russia (http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/united-states/} EU trade with the US. [/url) EU Business with the US dwarfs that with Russia.

I wonder, Mr. Howie, how you would react if the US pulled the same stunt Russia did. Let's say the US wanted Baja California for some reason (the long, thin peninsula just below the state of California.) So we make up some excuse, let's say America citizens are in danger there. It's somewhat plausible, given there have been kidnapping of Americans in Mexico. So the US sends in troops to supposedly to protect American interests. Suddenly there are military in unidentified uniforms occupying the region. The American president denies those are American troops, but that turns out to be lie. There's a referendum and suspiciously large number of people in the the region vote to join America, let's say 98% not even a more reasonable percentage such as 53%. The government of Mexico objects, of course. What's that, the majority of Baja Californians aren't American (since no one can even begin to claim there's any such thing as the American ethnic group.) True, but US citizens have large numbers of relatives that still live there. So, with the US pulling almost the same shit as Russia did with Crimea in this scenario, who do you side with?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/un-meets-as-world-leaders-call-for-global-inquiry-into-mh17-crash

The following report from the London Evening Standard is very damning: (and not pleasant to read)
Malaysian Airlines plane crash: As Putin blames Ukraine for MH17 tragedy, video emerges 'showing BUK missile launcher being driven into place' (http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-shot-down-tragedy-deaths-buk-missile-launcher-video-putin-russia-ukraine-obama-brits-dead-9613730.html)

I saw a video clip on the BBC TV News of Putin where he gave his reaction and in which he stated that the Ukraine was responsible for the downing of the plane because it happened on their territory. see a video clip here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG3pOkhoEtM)

It struck me that Putin was not even able to look the camera "in the eye" when he made his remarks.

Would you trust a man that did not look you in the eye?

This thread's title described it honestly and accurately from its inception.
This new atrocity should have a thread of its own.

[Move][glow=blue,2,300]BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! .............................BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ....................................... BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! .............................BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ....................................... BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! .............................BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! ............................. BREAKING NEWS!!! [/glow][/Move]



An American Citizen confirmed murdered on Malaysian Flight MF17.

He was a Dutch National with dual American - Dutch citizenship, traveling on a Dutch passport.

President Obama is sending a poignant message direct from his stints on the campaign trail  --  where the Commander-In-Chief spends all his non-golfing time  --  to Russia's President Putin,  that will surely get the Vlad's undivided attention & stop all this silly Ukrainian invasion stuff.

WTF???

   I dunno how, but.......................... 

(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/drink%20vino.gif)    I Gotta stop the Jack Daniels!!! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/big%20laugh%20007.gif)

A bad year for Malaysian Airlines.


Malaysia jet crashes in east Ukraine conflict zone (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28354856)

Crashes???  Crashes???   You've got to be joking ........

Regardless who is to blame,  [glow=green,2,300]A Civilian Malaysian Passenger Jet was deliberately Shot Down,
[/glow] & over 290 innocent human beings were [glow=black,2,300]cold-bloodedly murdered.[/glow]

It didn't just crash..............it was deliberately shot down............no ifs, buts, or ands.

The Politically Over-Correct BBC has their bloody royal heads up their collective bloody royal asses once again!

This thread's title described it honestly and accurately from its inception.
This new atrocity should have a thread of its own.

This thread used to be that thread, Tripe about Ukraine (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.0).

Followed this on the radio since I didn't have Internet the past couple of days. My opinion, based on what I heard:

At first, I heard that separatists claimed credit-- in a tweet-- for shooting down a Ukraine transport. This tweet was taken down immediately upon discovery that the plane shot down was, in fact, the Malaysian commercial aircraft-- then, everybody who might have had anything to do with it started blaming somebody else just as fast as they could.

Who could have done it? The plane was flying at 33,000 feet, too high for shoulder-launched missiles to have much of a chance of reaching it, much less shooting it down. So, it had-- it appears-- to be considerably more sophisticated. A mobile launcher, with tracking capabilities, firing either heat-seeking or radar-guided missiles.

We have the Ukraine. They might have the hardware/software. We have the Russian Federation. They've got it. We have the separatists. They can only get such hardware from one of the others--- Russia being the favorite bad-guy supplier here.

Behavior on the ground looks suspiciously like the separatists-- who control that area-- are making sure that any evidence implicating them gets cleaned up at once. Funny thing, that tweet when they thought it was a Ukraine transport came from a separatist leader, and my suspicion is that if the plane had been a Ukraine military transport these separatists would be dancing in the street right now.

So-- to use that old game "Clue" and its way of doing things:

The Separatists did it using missile hardware and maybe missile operators from Russia.

I saw a video clip on the BBC TV News of Putin where he gave his reaction and in which he stated that the Ukraine was responsible for the downing of the plane because it happened on their territory. see a video clip here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CG3pOkhoEtM)
Would you trust a man that did not look you in the eye?

Whether you like or trust Putin is irrelevant. Kiev is responsable for what happens on Ukrainian territory. It doesn't even need a Putin to realize this.
- It was Kiev who prefered the path of civil war instead of honest negociations with the separatist regions.
- It was Kiev who turned the airspace over the separatist regions into warspace. Once they did, why didn't they close the airspace for civilian flights at least?
- Ensuring the security of civilian aviation in a state's airspace is the responsibility of the respective state.
- Last but not least, why didn't Ukrainian traffic controll divert the traffic from the warspace and who ordered that Flight MH17 should fly right above a combat zone when the flight used a more southerly route before?

Some airlines like Air France or British Airlines have changed their traditional routes for quite some time avoiding Ukraine. Others didn't, to avoid extra costs.

One thing is certain, and that is that the missile seems to have come from separatist-controlled territory. After that things get murky fast.

1. The separatists are unlikely to have the technology themselves to be able to pull this off. I'd hazard a guess that left to their own devices, they wouldn't be much better armed than one of America's "militia" outfits.

2. If # 1 is true, and right now I personally have little reason to doubt it, then the missile and its launching system had to be either Ukrainian or Russian. If Ukrainian, how did a Ukraine outfit manage to get a missile, its launching hardware and so on into separatist-controlled territory without raising a ruckus that would have been noticed? Russian is easier in this case-- the separatists are in with and probably being supplied by the Russians so it's not impossible that the whole missile thing is Russian except for one little thing.

3. About that one little thing: An aircraft at 33,000 feet altitude is not the easiest thing to identify from a ground base. You can see the airplane and track it all right, but who owns it? I'm having a little trouble with the idea that Russians would shoot down a craft they didn't clearly identify as being enemy-- so that means that while the hardware may be Russian, it was most likely a separatist pulling the trigger/making the decisions in the belief it was a Ukrainian plane.

Now, of course the trigger-finger could be Russian-- &*$# happens and civilians get killed in war all the time-- but somehow I'd think professional Russian missile launchers might take the time to clearly identify their target. The situation already stinks so making an uglier international incident out of it is in nobody's best interest. Especially with the rest of the world suspecting that all three of the main players-- Russian, Ukrainian and Separatist-- have more than a little blame in all of this.

@Krake - The plane was shot down on the territory "of" the pro Russian Separatists. Ukraine does not control that territory, so your "logic" falls flat. It is a direct result of the insurrection fostered, supported and armed by Putin. He has dirty fingers in this whether his covert troops are directly involved on the day or not.

As for the remarks on whether the airline should be flying there I thoroughly agree that was daft, but one solid not let that deflect from the fact that all those people were murdered by the missile that hit the plane.

@Krake - The plane was shot down on the territory "of" the pro Russian Separatists. Ukraine does not control that territory, so your "logic" falls flat.

Speaking about logic, this time your logic.
How can Kiev declare its airspace secure for civil aviation to the ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) if it doesn't have controll over it? Wouldn't you call it irresponsible?

It is a direct result of the insurrection fostered, supported and armed by Putin. He has dirty fingers in this whether his covert troops are directly involved on the day or not.

As for your remarks regarding the insurrection - it is the result of the coup d'état in Kiev which wasn't neither planned, organized nor financed by Putin ...
After a destabilized Middle East we might witness a destabilized Eastern Europe. If it makes you comfortable you can blame Putin for both ...

Maybe we could blame both Russia and the United States for causing destabilization. Both governments seem to be at it, and with no clear understanding of what their meddling is likely to produce later

Note: Before RJHowie can barge in and wave his finger at us-- we learned from the experts in meddling. The UK wrote the book on meddling in affairs it little understood before the US came on the scene, and an interesting book it is too. It happens to all the best empire-builders.

Oh dear Sanguinemoon you are so taken in. On the subject of stunts which nation on the planet is mostly top of "stunts"?

The black box may be of some help in the investigation and already Western media is hyping it all on Russia like demented headcases.  I will prefer to wait for more definite evidence in due course. So far the local militias have only had rockets that could be back carried and therefore rather limited in their capability. Equally, Kiev downed a Russian passenger plane back around 2001 and even after international investigation blames them for "making a mistake" they still denied it. The same Kiev yakked out on 2 journalists accused of carrying rockets in the boot of their car and the White House red haired mouth woman said it was "true" as Kiev had told them it was. When this was found to be a lie there was no apology from Kiev or DC.Too many loose ends and runaway emotion on who is supposed to have downed it.  So before shooting mouths off too much let us see what the international investigators find out, eh?

Of course Obama did it. He used a longbow at 20 paces.

I don't think we can lay this one on Obama's doorstep though, in reality. I don't mind blaming him for being a miserable president-- he is that. But, the MH17 disaster? Really?

I don't think we can lay this one on Obama's doorstep though............

Well, of course Obama didn't physically fire the missile himself, nor did Potin, but by their obvious
individual direct actions or inaction, both can be held to blame for the outcomes -- past, present, & future --
as if they did, in this particular instance,  as if they did the actual firing themselves.

there are some Weird sh*t in this tragedy .

Why Malay airlines fly throught  the Zone of Conflicts ?

and Why the ukrainians or Whoever Shot Down that ,  cant determine Which are Air bus or  Military Plane ?

Many unfortunate and messy things coinciding. There's no proper state of emergency declared in Ukraine, even though there's an obvious war going on. EU Transport Commissioner had recommended the lowest flight level as 10000 metres and the airplane was following that. The separatists should not have rockets that fly so high. Russians and Ukrainians have them, but Ukrainians have no reason to shoot a rocket into the air this way because the separatists have no airplanes.

Any way you look at it, if anyone did it on purpose, it was the separatists. The black boxes immediately landed in Moscow, so Putin is not impartial. And it has been obvious all along since the Crimean incident that Putin is not impartial here. A beautiful resort area with militarily and commercially valuable ports did not land on Putin's lap accidentally and unintendedly. These things do not happen just so. It takes lots of conscious orchestration.

And EU/US, who apparently hoped to architecture another Orange Revolution, have been playing all cards wrong. The Crimean incident came totally unexpected to them, even though it has repeated historical antecedents, including very recent ones. The EU response to all of them has suffered from lack of coordination and unwillingness to acknowledge that repeated events like these reveal the true character of Russia and Putin. The EU hoped that a peaceful solution could arrive by itself by merely waiting, so the new government of Ukraine was discouraged from declaring a state of emergency and from making full noise as they should have for losing Crimea.

Due to thirst for Russian gas, the sanctions by EU have been undecided at best. When the EU hopes to tone down the crisis resulting in indecisive response, Russia only boldens up when its enemies show weakness. This is historically perfectly in harmony with Russia's character, and EU should have learned from history by now.

OSCE is examining the site as we speak. Reporting about this is kind of intermittent. In Estonian sources (which I trust less) it says that the separatists are moving the bodies and hiding them nobody knows where. Finnish sources (which I trust more) say that the officials of the Ukrainian ministery of emergency situations (there's a ministery by this name in Russia too) are moving the bodies. Both sources say that there was a dangerous standoff between Ukrainian authorities and the separatist forces before the way was cleared for OSCE observers, that the site is horrid and the bodies are in bad shape, that the OSCE observers are basically at the mercy of fate, scared and clueless and they would rather be somewhere else...

It would have been better for everyone if the war had flared up sooner on a much larger scale to let the steam out of the parties properly. These politically incompetent EU attempts at containment only build up tension and ensure a worse war later.

Why Malay airlines fly throught  the Zone of Conflicts?

Actually until this incident it was a fairly common practice.

One CNN commentator I watched said that quite a few other airlines also flew the same route on the same day   ---   Singapore Airlines, Thai Airways, KLM, Lufthansa ........ day in, day out.

Just because they fly that route doesn't change the fact that those 290+ innocent dead didn't deserve to die --- they weren't at any fault whatsoever.

The fault lies solely with those that fired the missile(s), & the leader(s) that empowered them.....,..period

In the end, only cowards will choose to blame these innocent victims of Flight MH17, & the airlines that flew them.

Who's really to blame?

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X914xmLJN4c[/VIDEO]

Now you know.......

Who is this lunatic?
I have seen other little videos of his, equally incoherent, equally bizarre.
Does he intend to be taken seriously? Has he got a regular slot on some T.V. network?
Is he mocking some well-known commentator?
He certainly isn't known here in the Antipodes.

It wasn't considered a war zone. It is now though, Ukraine is a near no-fly zone (http://www.flightradar24.com/51.07,28.93/5). It didn't use to be, it is the natural trajectory from Western Europe to South/Eastern Asia (like MH17), or from Northern Europe to the Arab Peninsula (and the major transport hubs at Dubai and Doha). It has significant traffic. Last flight I ordered went over Eastern Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Burma.

Last flight I ordered went over Eastern Ukraine, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Burma.

I thought Iran didn't have any (present-day) civil wars?

Who is this lunatic?

He's Bob Thompson, the Youtube genius. He's at least as knowledgeable as most DnD posters.
:)

Any way you look at it, if anyone did it on purpose, it was the separatists.

So the separatists are interested in shooting down civil airplanes. A very strange argument which doesn't come as a surprize considering your patological russophobia.

so Putin is not impartial.

So Putin is not impartial. Isn't he?
Tell us who the f**k is impartial?
You Ersi?
Obama and its Western vasalls?
?
Anybody I've missed?

It would have been better for everyone if the war had flared up sooner on a much larger scale to let the steam out of the parties properly.

Better for everyone? Really?
Are you sure that your patologic hate doesn't hamper sometimes your ability to think?

I thought Iran didn't have any (present-day) civil wars?

That's correct but Iranian planes are at risk anyway. You probably remember ...

No, Iran is safe, as is Burma (which has its share of bandits and ethnic conflict).

Generally, so is Afghanistan, Iraq, and tribal areas in Pakistan and Ukraine as well, or so I would have thought until a few days ago, as long as the plane cruises at 10 km height. All planes have to take off and land, a much riskier proposition.

The Iran Air flight 665 was shot down by USS Vincennes over Iranian waters in 1988, with 290 dead, and the Korean Air flight 007 was shot down by an SU-15 fighter over the Soviet Union in 1983, with 269 dead, and a Siberian Airlines flight 1812 was shot down by a Ukrainean missile in Crimea in 2001, with 78 dead. These things shouldn't happen, but they do.

The first indicators that I got of it was that the shoot-down WAS deliberate, but that it was "mistaken identity". The intended target was a Ukrainian troop transport. Problem: It takes really good eyesight to see the difference between a troop transport plane and a civilian airliner at that distance.

In the meantime, there is a Dutch bicyclist you should pay attention to. He was scheduled to fly on the doomed flight, and decided at the last minute not to take that flight. Not once, but twice. MH370 and MH17. If you see him, and you're scheduled to take a flight he's on, and at the last minute he decides not to take that flight-- pay attention and don't take that flight. Something's going on there.

http://gawker.com/man-changes-flight-twice-escapes-death-on-both-doomed-1607754313 (http://gawker.com/man-changes-flight-twice-escapes-death-on-both-doomed-1607754313)

Who's really to blame?

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X914xmLJN4c[/VIDEO]

Now you know.......

Seriously?  WhatI dare say he's gone full retard on this on. Of course, I wouldn't think it needs to be said that immigrants fleeing Central America in no way equates to what Russia did in Crimea. I'm not sure what to say except he needs to get back on his meds. What's next? The men in white coats come to take him away to the happy home.

The man is certainly in your face in that video but once we get by the bits that might annoy some he is I am afraid, right.

It is okay for the President to supply all sorts of dodgy leaders and countries with weaponry, skills, etc as well as supplying terrorist organisation the US supports! But Heavens the idea of someone else doing that is somehow tut,tut?  Up until now the local militia in the east has only had carrying rocket firers but if they got something bigger then that is another matter. Did we have the same hyper nonsense from the media and Western politicians when a Russian passenger plane was shot down in what was it around 2001?  The trouble is that the US does not like the thought of any nation challenging them (as they see it) on rulijng the globe financially and militarily. Russia is no automatic pushover like everyone else and good for them but it niggles DC so throw what you can against Russia and Putin. Even when the White House press propagandists are found to have lied or just accepted stories from Kiev with no evidence that is okay. Based on the claim that Russia is arming the militia and threatened with more sanctions (utterly bonkers) maybe there should be a sanction on the US for what it does interfering in countries and helping terror regimes.

As for the plane disaster it is a shocking thing and whoever is to blame must be eventually found out but this crusade against Russia falls back into the hypocrisy corner right there at the top. The BRICK countries need to be more confident about challenging the dominance of the US because the DC politicos are the handy boys for the corporates who always make money after every invasion, etc. Russia has constantly said that discussions with the East are the priority which the West studiously ignores. Obama jumped in right from the start by supporting the bloody-minded and armed insurrectionists who toppled a democratically elected government. So much for the usual US rubbish and rights, freedoms, referendums, democratic routines. Obama and company will do anything to ensure the world does what America wants and Ukraine is yet another example.

Kiev has the support of the west of the country but NOT the East and one would have thought that dialogue from kiev with the East would be sensible but nope they will stomp and kill people willy-nilly in that part of the country and the US is right behind them. This is in the face of the hard fact that one half of the country is not happy with being associated with the EEC and West politics. The "revolution2 did not include those in the East who provide so much of the national income. Why does the West led by obama not take these matters on board?  The Kiev government has also lied about it's present attack on the so-called "Separists" who started out wanting their views taken into consideration and more autonomy INSIDE Ukraine. Many innocent people are being killed who have nothing to do with the conflict. Homes destroyed, water and power stoppedf. Thousands have fled across the border int the Russian Federation for safety. Kiev has shelled at least 4 times over the border. So why no concern about the refugees or the killing and dmage to civilians?

The far right is in it's elements in Ukraine and part of the government. Many are in the National Guard with those very suitable black uniforms after all many of those before them served with the Nazi war machine. So it is a vindictive and selective Kiev regime that is lying and causing mayhem that could have been avoided and the US is up to it's ears supporting what is sadly going on. In hoping that an answer to the shooting down will be found and that the dead are properly seen to does not mean that Kiev and the White House (and others) are anything more than immoral and dangerous.

The black boxes immediately landed in Moscow, so Putin is not impartial.

Estonian sources are quite unreliable. They seem to have no problem showing contradictory stories side by side and to borrow from secondary and tertiary outlets without criticism, without discerning between speculation and fact.

The story that the black boxes were immediately sent to Moscow was picked up from American sources who reference an unidentified Russian radio station. The current story is that the rebels say that they have the black boxes (http://yle.fi/uutiset/separatistit_mustat_laatikot_ovat_hallussamme_donetskissa/7366060) and will turn the material over to ICAO under certain terms.

OSCE observers took note of rotten bodies on the site, many bodies missing. Some observers were taken by the rebels to some freezer railway cars where rebels keep some bodies (http://yle.fi/uutiset/video_etyjin_tarkkailijoille_naytettiin_malesialaiskoneen_uhrien_ruumiita_junavaunuissa_torezissa/7366204), but the observers were not allowed to make anything resembling counting. The Dutch prime minister in particular is furious over the fact that the evidence on the site has been obviously tampered with.

Let's recall another airplane shot down a few days ago, confirmed by all major news agencies: The story of the An-26 transporter airplane of Ukrainian air force shot down by the same Donetsk separatists (http://yle.fi/uutiset/separatistit_sanovat_ampuneensa_alas_ukrainan_armeijan_kuljetuskoneen/7355113?ref=leiki-uu)
Already here Ukrainian authorities were surprised that rebels have the capacity to shoot rockets so high - six kilometers, when they were supposed to go no higher than three. The rebels bragged about it (in Twitter no less), and Ukrainian defence minister Heletey is supposed to have speculated that the rocket may have come from Russian territory, because the rebels don't have the capacity to shoot rockets so high. In a normal world this should have meant a declaration of war by Ukraine to Russia, but nothing in this conflict proceeds normally.

Judge for yourselves, if you can. In my opinion, in short term the incident is bad for Putin as nobody can deny anymore that Russia is complicit here. If Putin makes any divertive move, he risks international pariah status. But from then on Putin only gets freer hands to do as he pleases, and the rest of the world probably just keeps on with the impotent diplomacy as they have thus far.

By the way, I just returned from a Nato air force showoff here in Estonia. Pretty cool to see fighter jets first hand. It would be even cooler, had it been the first time for me. Russian fighter jets showed themselves off similarly throughout the years of the regime change, and not just at the military base, but all over the country, simply to terrorise people for fun.

Quote from: ersi on 2014-07-20, 05:51:05

Any way you look at it, if anyone did it on purpose, it was the separatists.

So the separatists are interested in shooting down civil airplanes. A very strange argument which doesn't come as a surprize considering your patological russophobia.

Have you seen the separatists talk on Russian TV? Do you have Russian colleagues so that you could have any clue of Russian mentality? Ever experienced a Russian occupation? I haven't seen you acknowledge anything about Russia's recent geopolitical ambitions, no matter how obvious. There's no reason for me to pay attention to someone whose ideal solution for Europe seems to be the MRP.

I can think of one thing that would stop Ukraine from declaring war on Russia, and that is that if a proper war gets going there's no way for Ukraine to win. For all the posturing being done by other nations, the EU mainly wants to stay out of it and without EU /Nato support there's no way the US is going to be able to do much for Ukraine even if the US wants to. Right now, the idea of a knock-down drag-out fight with Russia doesn't have that much appeal even in the crazy parts of the Pentagon, so how much we want to help Ukraine is open for debate anyway. Sanctions are one thing, and can safely be done by standard political posturing. Going to war with Russia is another matter, and it's a matter that a lot of people want nothing to do with.

Sanctions are one thing, and can safely be done by standard political posturing. Going to war with Russia is another matter, and it's a matter that a lot of people want nothing to do with.

Europe to The U.S.A. :

Stay out of the Middle East.
Stay out of South East Asia.
Stay out of Eastern Europe.
Stay out of South America.

Just mind your own business.....period.

[glow=red,2,300]Russia ponders Ukranian invasion.[/glow]

Europe to the U.S.A. :

When are you going to do something about Putin?

Why don't you take an active role?

If Putin succeeds in the Ukraine, who's next/who will stop him?

Why doesn't the U.S.A. do something??



I say,  let 'em simmer in their own juices.  They're not our problem .......... We don't need 'em, nor want 'em.

Tell 'em to go to the U.N.

That should frost their cookies! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)

From The Sydney Morning Herald


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14700317611_95bcafb7cf_o.jpg)

More emotional stuff here on Russia and Putin. Even more so when you consider all the dodgy countries and dictatorships America has supported so a wee bit less of the ignoring the long obvious. Russia has costantly argued for deliberation from the 2 sides in Ukraine and even if he did go in to help his people living there that somehow is wrong when you consider the history of DC? The local leaders in the Eaat actually did in a brief moment ask Russia to come in but Moscow did not take that up. It will be interesting to see if Russia supplied any weaponry to the militias it would be a drop in the ocaen compared to the good ole US of A. Smileyfaze, it is about time your country stopped creating wars to keep your military supply industry up to speed and leaving behind mayhem afterwards.

As for cuplrits once again the "great Satan" (!). It supported a bunch of gun neo-Nazis in the Kiev rebellion against a government that was democratically elected. The US also knew the East of Ukraine was treated at the end of a barge pole by Kiev yet ignored that and is a disgrace so thank you America for helping make things worse not Russia. One of the most stomach churning episodes was that utter half-witted head-banger of a Senator McCain who went out to Kiev during the killing by the rightists. If he had won the Presidential funfair we would be in WW3 by now. And now the US is strongly leaning on Europe to be right behind it on sanctions and not to bother too much about loss of trade, power supplies, etc. Now how is that for complete arrogance full well knowing that it itself has no problem with power supplies or trade, etc. It is high time others told the US to sod off while they get the raw deal and DC sits back unaffected.

Funny thing is, nobody except maybe the ukrainian government ( since everyone would blame the russians on either side of the border anyway ) had anything to gain from shooting that plane down. So, fuckup by the separatists sounds rather plausible to me.

I can think of one thing that would stop Ukraine from declaring war on Russia, and that is that if a proper war gets going there's no way for Ukraine to win.

The purpose of declaring war against Russia would not be winning. Nobody can win Russia. The purpose would be making a point against Russia, making it clear that what's going on is unacceptable. This point has not been driven home yet neither by Ukraine or EU. As long as this point does not reach its destination, it can only get worse. Of course, to make the point, Ukraine must take initiative and the EU must back it up with a consensus as a unified front. Any other way it would be insincere. And the sincere way is not going to happen. The EU may seem a unified front now - finally, something that the Baltic countries have always been requesting -, but they are also laughably easy to take apart by Russia.

More emotional stuff here on Russia and Putin. Even more so when you consider all the dodgy countries and dictatorships America has supported so a wee bit less of the ignoring the long obvious. Russia has costantly argued for deliberation from the 2 sides in Ukraine and even if he did go in to help his people living there that somehow is wrong when you consider the history of DC? The local leaders in the Eaat actually did in a brief moment ask Russia to come in but Moscow did not take that up. It will be interesting to see if Russia supplied any weaponry to the militias it would be a drop in the ocaen compared to the good ole US of A. Smileyfaze, it is about time your country stopped creating wars to keep your military supply industry up to speed and leaving behind mayhem afterwards.

As for cuplrits once again the "great Satan" (!). It supported a bunch of gun neo-Nazis in the Kiev rebellion against a government that was democratically elected. The US also knew the East of Ukraine was treated at the end of a barge pole by Kiev yet ignored that and is a disgrace so thank you America for helping make things worse not Russia. One of the most stomach churning episodes was that utter half-witted head-banger of a Senator McCain who went out to Kiev during the killing by the rightists. If he had won the Presidential funfair we would be in WW3 by now. And now the US is strongly leaning on Europe to be right behind it on sanctions and not to bother too much about loss of trade, power supplies, etc. Now how is that for complete arrogance full well knowing that it itself has no problem with power supplies or trade, etc. It is high time others told the US to sod off while they get the raw deal and DC sits back unaffected.

Words fail me.

From The Sydney Morning Herald


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14700317611_95bcafb7cf_o.jpg)

Kudos, propaganda at its best.

One rule for the West, another rule for the rest (http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-plane-crash-lies-and-sinister-political-agenda-by-the-west/5391913)

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

Funny thing is, nobody except maybe the ukrainian government ( since everyone would blame the russians on either side of the border anyway ) had anything to gain from shooting that plane down.

Cui Bono? (http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17-downed-over-warzone-ukraine-who-was-behind-it-cui-bono/5391840)

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

Would such a photo as this been unthinkable too?

Quote from: tt92 on 2014-07-20, 22:29:11

From The Sydney Morning Herald


(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2911/14700317611_95bcafb7cf_o.jpg)

Kudos, propaganda at its best.

One rule for the West, another rule for the rest (http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-plane-crash-lies-and-sinister-political-agenda-by-the-west/5391913)

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

Actually there were quite a few.

One rule for the West, another rule for the rest (http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-plane-crash-lies-and-sinister-political-agenda-by-the-west/5391913)

What a bunch of drivel. Who's the West? Mark Rutte is the West (http://www.nrc.nl/handelsblad/van/2014/juli/19/rutte-wijst-zeer-bewust-nog-geen-schuldigen-aan-1404106). The UN safety council also unanimously called for a proper investigation — something incidentally hindered by the pro-Russian separatists. And who exactly supplied the aggressor Arab states with weaponry, anyhow? To top it off, as if the off-hand anti-semitism weren't bad enough, the conclusion makes no sense whatsoever. It's like blaming the ant for the broken bed.

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

It's a pity my digital newspaper archive doesn't go back to the late '80s. I'll bet you're wrong. Of course, once evidence to the contrary has been procured you'd probably claim only CNN counts.

I'm trying to imagine there not being some political cartoons like that. 1988 was an election year, President Reagan was still in the White House but it was his last year. George H W Bush was "heir apparent" to the Republican nomination if not to the Oval Office, and then as now many news organizations were undisguised shills for the Democrat Party. Not trying to stick Bush with the Iranian Flight 655 incident would go against the grain of a lot of political pundits of the day.

Then of course there's the foreign press. Even if you could have a total news blackout here in the US on the incident, how do you stop the various news agencies around the world from posting political cartoons that show the US in a bad light. A thing like the Flight 655 incident would be a "gimme" for a news outfit that has an axe to grind with the US, and there's more than a handful of such organizations worldwide I would think.

We didn't have such ready access to the Internet back then. Posting to forums like this one didn't happen regularly yet, it wasn't until GHWB was warming the chair in the Oval Office that you could even buy a personal computer that would do more than play a couple of games, and DOS was still in its infancy as an operating system. But--- editorial cartoons showing something similar to the one above, except with the American president holding a broken plane in his hands? Yeah, they just about had to exist somewhere.

Quote from: krake on 2014-07-21, 04:42:38

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

Actually there were quite a few.

I'll take your word on that.
Criticism yes but there was no such an outrage in our main stream.
Not to mention that the blame of Russia is based for the time being on speculations and started as soon as the script for the Ukraine written in Washington didn't work as expected ...

One rule for the West, another rule for the rest (http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-plane-crash-lies-and-sinister-political-agenda-by-the-west/5391913)

BTW, such a photo would have been unthinkable after Air Flight 655 from Tehran to Dubai  was downed.

To a certain extent. The outrage after IR655 was muted as I remember it, far less than the fairly equivalent KE007, and massively less than the Lockerbie bombing (PA103), even though less people were killed. However there is no moral equivalence here. While the Americans were reckless, their intent wasn't to shoot down a civilian airplane, while that definitely was the intent of the PA103 bombers.

There is a fundamental attribution error (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error) at work. They are cold-blooded killers, while we just had a bad day that day. That said, if the Russians did lend an arm to insurgents untrained in the art of mass destruction, as has been alleged, it would be recklessness on a whole different level. Even the Americans drew the line at Stinger missiles.

Nice to know that words for a change fail tt92. Typical US arrogance and imperialsm. Makes the sun outside even more charming.

The media here is so utterly pathetic both in the West in general and what passes for it mainstream in the ex-colonies in the same mindset. Did the Russia passenger plane that got shot down a while ago in Ukraine get the same hoo-ha? no it didn't. If Russia is getting blamed for this incident on spurious information how daft can we get? The USA is the champion of doing the very thing it accuses Russia of and that is morally right is it? Try answering the history of the US. As for the supposed copy of a transmission Kiev has on dialogue between militia units. The oddity of that one is that it has been seen to have had a problem. The starting part of the tape is set at a particular time then oddly the final part is at a different time altogether. Why Obama and Cameron, etc  lash out at Russia is utterly insulting intelligence. Because the militias ar basically Russian people therefore Russia nd Putin are the blame people. Absurd. The blame should be at the US and it's puppets in the West who from the evil start in that Kiev Square took no notice at all of the rightful complaints of East Ukraine who were totally ignored. Not very sensible at all and created the war situation we now have.

One would have to wonder what was on Putin's shirtless mind when he took to his protectionist policy pertaining to his murderous cherished cherubs dogs in the Eastern Ukraine.

One more nail?



Yes, one would have to wonder .............. simply, amongst a growing list of coulda shouldas,  why didn't Vlad demand that his thugs preserve the 'crime scene', & least of all respect the memory of those 290+ innocent victims??

The UN has bluntly put Putin on notice & said that Russia's obstructionism won't cut it be tolerated any longer!

Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 Lured Into A Death Trap?

Malaysian MH17: Russian Radar Data and Satellite Images Suggest Foul Play (http://nsnbc.me/2014/07/22/malaysian-mh17-russian-radar-data-satellite-images-suggest-foul-play/)

Wonder with what proofs the Pentagon will came up.
I hope it won't be the kind of PowerPoint cartoons Mr Powell presented us last time.

The Illuminati did it (http://freethoughtblogs.com/dispatches/2014/07/22/the-illuminati-and-the-malaysian-jet/), end of story :right:

a Well-played  Satire , mac  :D

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mememaker.net%2Fstatic%2Fimages%2Fmemes%2F3663835.jpg&hash=1bfab6ef1d73db9777e3ac3cabf14952" rel="cached" data-hash="1bfab6ef1d73db9777e3ac3cabf14952" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/3663835.jpg)

Too many lies, guesses and media acting like demented mental patients on a free for all.  And what do you know the other night on BBC Newsnight they quoted that US espionage folk had said that Russia was not involved in the airliner downing. However Obama danced round that to find something else to blame the Russians for! Quite a stance from a country that causes so much mayhem in the world itself. On a more reasonable note some observers have stated that the Ukrainian fighter jet near the passenger plane was shot down by accident. Well a possibility but I would prefer to wait for the outcome instead of the nonsense being peddled by Obama and the West.  The Malaysian government has shown more common sense than some of the frantic ranting mindsets here and in the media. It has refused to join in the frenxy of blameKiev denied they had a fighter plane and then Russia produced the evidence and they still deny it. Everyone has jumped on the hysterical bandwagon but I will wait to see what the eventual outcome gives u when we have proof. So do feel free folks to go back to asylum until we find the truth.

The Feds did it in order to get Katsung. But, the Acme stuff that they bought from Wile E Coyote missed once again and Kat is no doubt posting about this somewhere.

Haha! Well done there Chicago man. Iam still laughing at that one. Wonder where the poor blighter is now or maybe he has been sectioned as he was so unreal. Brilliant one Chicago. Due a crate of Irn Bru. haha.

The Feds did it in order to get Katsung. But, the Acme stuff that they bought from Wile E Coyote missed once again and Kat is no doubt posting about this somewhere.

I believe he hasn't noticed yet that we moved so I doubt very much of his capacity for taking an airplane...
Or maybe he noticed and, obviously, interpreted as one more maneuver from the feds to prevent him to exposing them.

In my sordid imagination, the feds finally got him...

Anyway, I miss his perseverance.
I hope everything is fine with him, people suffering from what he suffers often gets in trouble.

I dare say there would be the odd occasion when he actually touched on something controversial that could be argued but most of the time it was a strident and mind boggling determination and as Belfrager says a strong disciplined assault.

Why does it take so long for making public the data extracted from the blackbox and voicerecorder of M17?
Extracting data from a blackbox and a voicerecorder are no rocket science, not even in an underdeveloped country.
Do the findings contradict with Washington and Kiev's allegations and have to be manipulated first? It would at least explain the delay.

US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft - link (http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925)
OCSE monitor mentions bullet holes in MH17 - link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ze9BNGDyk4=)
Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts - link (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/)
Shocking Analysis of the ‘Shooting Down’ of Malaysian MH17 - link (http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/)
Deleted BBC Report. “Ukrainian Fighter Jet Shot Down MHI7?, Donetsk Eyewitnesses link (http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631)

Why does it take so long for making public the data extracted from the blackbox and voicerecorder of M17?
Extracting data from a blackbox and a voicerecorder are no rocket science, not even in an underdeveloped country.
Do the findings contradict with Washington and Kiev's allegations and have to be manipulated first? It would at least explain the delay.

US analysts conclude MH17 downed by aircraft - link (http://www.nst.com.my/node/20925)
OCSE monitor mentions bullet holes in MH17 - link (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ze9BNGDyk4=)
Flight 17 Shoot-Down Scenario Shifts - link (http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/03/flight-17-shoot-down-scenario-shifts/)
Shocking Analysis of the ‘Shooting Down’ of Malaysian MH17 - link (http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/)
Deleted BBC Report. “Ukrainian Fighter Jet Shot Down MHI7?, Donetsk Eyewitnesses link (http://www.globalresearch.ca/deleted-bbc-report-ukrainian-fighter-jet-shot-down-mhi7-donetsk-eyewitnesses/5393631)

[move](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)[glow=black,2,300]  Katsung Lives!!!!!!! [/glow](https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)/move]

I'm sure your silly argument will convince everybody  :monkey:
BTW, I could give you more sources but I'm afraid English is the only language you understand.

BTW, I could give you more sources but I'm afraid English is the only language you understand.

Why's that? Because it's a propaganda site written in Russia. This hypothesis goes on to say that Ukraine did it in an attempt to kill Putin. Let's see,  Ukrainian jet fighters shot down a commercial aircraft plainly marked as belonging to Malaysian Airlines thinking Putin's on it, despite the fact he was on no such flight. Meanwhile two unknown witnesses (for all we know, they can be separatists in civilian clothes) can easily tell a Russian SU-25 from a Ukrainian one from ground level that far away? Oh yeah, and for some reason the Ukrainian fighter was specifically trying to hit the airliner's pilot, even though doing that is completely unnecessary to take the craft out of the sky.

Meanwhile, the BUK missiles are specifically designed to explode before impact and the shrapnel is supposed to pierce the hull of the enemy craft like that. Exit holes? If the shrapnel can break through the hull on one side, there's nothing else to slow it down. So why can't it escape the other side if it has enough velocity?

There is some truth to what Smiley said. This sounds like a 9-11 conspiracy theory. You know, where the "truthers" say Jet fuel doesn't burn hot enough (despite the fact that an elementary school student can tell you what happens with metal and heat....) and that Bush, for reasons unknown, had the military fire a cruise missile into the Pentagon. The conspiracy theory to blame Ukrainian jet fighters for the downing of M17 is as weak as blaming the US government for 9-11.

Ps, if the Ukrainians wanted to kill Putin why didn't they send in sniper to take him out? If you want to murder a world leader, common sense tells you to do with precision instead pf gross actions like this.

@Sanguinemoon

Of course are the links I gave only speculations. None of us could tell for sure what exactly happened.
There are lot of speculations. However, speculations or not, that's not the point.
The main point you missed to answer is not related to the circumstances M17 was downed but another.
Why the secrecy about the data extracted from the blackbox and voicerecorder of M17?
Why were the findings not made public yet?
Don't try to tell me that they are still at extracting and analyzing data.

It sometimes takes awhile for the data to come together in a crash here, with an American plane coming down over American soil, due to known weather-event conditions. They don't rush a job like that, you know. I don't see that we have cause for complaint because they haven't released the data to us yet.

MH17 adds the fact that it came down over disputed territory, with everybody and his brother  having reason to lie about things--- and you expect the data to be released yesterday??? Really? I would note that a BUK missile exploding in close proximity to the aircraft is unlikely to have done the data recorders any good, so they just may have a job piecing together the final moments of the flight from what's left. Remember-- it's a commercial airliner, not designed to be flown in combat conditions. The data recorders took a beating from the missile, too.

I miss Katsung.
He did conspiracy much better.

Quote from: krake on 2014-08-07, 20:58:02

BTW, I could give you more sources but I'm afraid English is the only language you understand.

Why's that? Because it's a propaganda site written in Russia. This hypothesis goes on to say that Ukraine did it in an attempt to kill Putin. Let's see,  Ukrainian jet fighters shot down a commercial aircraft plainly marked as belonging to Malaysian Airlines thinking Putin's on it, despite the fact he was on no such flight. Meanwhile two unknown witnesses (for all we know, they can be separatists in civilian clothes) can easily tell a Russian SU-25 from a Ukrainian one from ground level that far away? Oh yeah, and for some reason the Ukrainian fighter was specifically trying to hit the airliner's pilot, even though doing that is completely unnecessary to take the craft out of the sky.

Huh, the Boeing was at ~30000ft, at that height you can't really see it from the ground unless there's a contrail ( and then all you see is the contrail growing, not the plane itself ). Distinguishing a russian from an ukrainian Su25 at that distance? No way in hell. Good luck seeing it at all.

And yet there are sites that think the two witnesses is such strong evidence against against Ukraine. The BBC report about the witnesses was probably deleted because they realized it was bullshit for common sense reasons. That's one pitfalls of having a such a quick news cycle. Every site and news channel has to try to be the first to the break the story, before anyone has a chance to think about it for a second.

I would note that a BUK missile exploding in close proximity to the aircraft is unlikely to have done the data recorders any good, so they just may have a job piecing together the final moments of the flight from what's left.

Not quite exact. All the data from both blackboxes was intact and has been already extracted.

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-08-08, 10:43:53

I would note that a BUK missile exploding in close proximity to the aircraft is unlikely to have done the data recorders any good, so they just may have a job piecing together the final moments of the flight from what's left.

Not quite exact. All the data from both blackboxes was intact and has been already extracted.

I didn't know that.

And yet there are sites that think the two witnesses is such strong evidence against against Ukraine.

Was the sky even clear that day? Otherwise all the action would have been way above the clouds.

Fair point and one wonders if at the end of the day we will find out who actually fired the shell?

............ at the end of the day we will find out who actually fired the shell?

My monies on that Russian trained Russian-Separatists fired them using
Russian provided BUK Missiles, but it wasn't Vlad ...... Oh no, he's permitted
to just turn a blind eye, & deny everything.

Sounds like Sgt. Schultz (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/MP3/Schultz_I_see_nothing.mp3)with a Russian accent.

Quote from: krake on 2014-08-09, 00:42:51

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-08-08, 10:43:53

I would note that a BUK missile exploding in close proximity to the aircraft is unlikely to have done the data recorders any good, so they just may have a job piecing together the final moments of the flight from what's left.

Not quite exact. All the data from both blackboxes was intact and has been already extracted.

I didn't know that.

Fascinating. Krake was just asking a couple of days ago how much longer, now he says they have it---- You know, that's good going if they've already pieced it together. It can take longer than this when a plane hasn't been shot down, but rather got wrecked on takeoff/landing incidents. Six months and better to find out, definitively, that wind shear or perhaps a bird strike was the ultimate culprit.

Now, before anybody gets any idears--- I doubt that it was wind shear, and not many birds fly at 30,000 feet.

Fascinating. Krake was just asking a couple of days ago how much longer, now he says they have it

Less fascinating than you might think.
I was asking how much longer it will take till some of the findings will be made public. The question about how long it takes to extract data was rhetorical. The reason I asked was because at that time I already had information of the data being extracted but had no 'trustworthy' source at hand for the case someone would have asked for it.
I didn't expected final conclusions yet but at least some partial findings like those of the voice recorder...

It can take longer than this when a plane hasn't been shot down, but rather got wrecked on takeoff/landing incidents. Six months and better to find out, definitively, that wind shear or perhaps a bird strike was the ultimate culprit.

Six month you say? With all the data of the blackbox and voice recorder at hand? Good luck.
The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization) standard is within a month.

However, some incidents can take years or decades to get cleared up ... Others won't never get totally cleared up, serving as food for conspiracy theories.

.......serving as food for conspiracy theories.

Only for fertile fruit cake minds in a frenzy for off-the-wall-theories, willing to digest anything the snake oil theorist salesmen is happy to oblige them with.

You do know, of course, that the data recorders might not tell you a lot at that. Commercial airliners don't have a lot in the way of defensive capabilities, so it's entirely possible that the flight crew had no knowledge of the missile until the plane was riddled with shrapnel and was falling from the sky. Up until the end you would hear standard conversation if anything with the plane on autopilot at 33,000 ft, the crew mainly monitoring the situation. The flight data recorder might record only standard stuff right to the point where debris hit the control surfaces and caused the sudden, violent last movements. Neither would prove, definitively, who fired the missile.

If you're expecting either the voice recorder or the flight data recorder to say, for sure, that either the Ukrainians or the Russian-backed Separatists were responsible-- you're probably gonna have a bad time.

it's entirely possible that the flight crew had no knowledge of the missile until the plane was riddled with shrapnel and was falling from the sky.

Of course the flight crew couldn't know. That's obvious and makes me wonder why you come up with such banalities.

If you're expecting either the voice recorder or the flight data recorder to say, for sure, that either the Ukrainians or the Russian-backed Separatists were responsible-- you're probably gonna have a bad time.

No, I'm not expecting such a thing and I assume that no sane person does.
It's not about who downed M17. Following your assertions one might think that the analysis of the blackboxes and the voice recorder is useless anyway only because it won't tell who downed the plain. What dou you think the work is done for?

Up until the end you would hear standard conversation if anything with the plane on autopilot at 33,000 ft, the crew mainly monitoring the situation.

Let me tell you only about 3 things the voice recorder might reveal:
- entire communocation between M17 and the control tower
- if M17 was ordered to change course and in case it was - why?
- if the crew noticed about a military jet in the proximity of M17 and in case it did, if some communication took place

May I remind you SmileyFaze that the Ukrainian military has the same item. Instead of the fanatical anti-Russian stuff let's wait and see shall we? Then we can attribute blame instead of the erstwhile propaganda from all quarters. Then we can of course high light the culprits of the disaster.

May I remind you SmileyFaze that the Ukrainian military has the same item. Instead of the fanatical anti-Russian stuff let's wait and see shall we? Then we can attribute blame instead of the erstwhile propaganda from all quarters. Then we can of course high light the culprits of the disaster.

Ok....where were those Ukrainian units RJ?

Do you know?

The only BUK units in that region belonged to the Russian separatists, so your wait & see rubbish is all soakin' wet.

The Russian Separatists were also responsible for at least 1 previously reported recent shoot-down.

How do we know.......'cuz they bragged about it.....just like they did in those intercepted communication you've conveniently forgotten about.

So, being that the only known BUK units in the region were in the control of the Russian Separatists, & being they claimed responsibility in the intercepted conversations, & being that the Separatists refused anyone near the site for days until it had been thoroughly 'cleaned up', all that points to who the culprits were .....

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, smells like a duck, has webbed feet like a duck, it tells you it's a duck, chances are that it's actually a duck. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/imthinkin6.gif)



So RJ, you can be politically correct & sit & wait for hell to freeze over all you freekin' want  ....................................

The Russian Separatists did it, & I have no doubts about that fact whatsoever

Dear Fox Television brained neo-con, the wide area around the plane interest was not singly controlled by either side and the Ukrainian Army does have those weapons. Without any proof you are part of the almost hysterical waffle. The rebels have only lighter personal weaponry against a fully equipped army in case you hadn't noticed or are yourr tv stations still being selective in what is shown? We will, I hope, find out whether the rebels or the Kiev forces downed the plane but you are galloping along at present without an official end announced yet in the investigation.

.......,,..,you are galloping along at present without an official end announced yet in the investigation.......

Wake me up when they find your version of the so called "official end.." ...........prolly well after we are both dusted bones........ people died of old age waiting for the same "official" thing relative to what started the First World War too. Enjoy your Borscht. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/smileys/zzz.png)

Dear Fox Television brained neo-con, the wide area around the plane interest was not singly controlled by either side and the Ukrainian Army does have those weapons.

You can't accuse me of being Fox brained. At the time, the area was controlled by Separatists. The Ukrainian government made major advances against the separatists and reportedly have Donetsk surrounded, so that might no longer be the case.

he rebels have only lighter personal weaponry against a fully equipped army in case you hadn't noticed or are yourr tv stations still being selective in what is shown?

The rebels indeed have BUK missiles. Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, admitted to it.

Here's an account of the day (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/what-happened-day-flight-17-was-downed). It notes several things. Multiple towns people were witness to rebel owned BUK missile system. The seperatists' denials  are being challenged by the residents. Even before M17 was down, the Associated Press reported the BUKs coming from Russia into Ukraine. Again, we have a rebel admitting it. Oh yeah, from the photo, it was cloudy that day - making unlikely that anyone could have seen a Ukrainian fighter much less identify it as such.

The rebels did it. Case closed.

You are brained by the coronate media over the pond it is just that you don't realise it. Anything in the ex-colonies that is propagated is automatically Moses with the tablets and anything else equally automatically wrong. Even that throway comment about the separatists being in control. No they were not because the Kiev army and the fascist membership National Guard were in the same area. There was NO set border on the trouble and NEITHER were in "control" over such a wide area of conflict. Do try and keep it sensible rather than what you are simply told or want to believe. If the Kiev lot are to blame or the separatists then fine we will know but we don't YET. That strikes me as more sensible don't you?

Some things never change ............................................................ (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/yawning005.gif)

If the Kiev lot are to blame or the separatists then fine we will know but we don't YET.

Every sign points to the separatists, the people that militarily controlled the area. The area itself was separatist stronghold. The theory that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane holds as more holes in it than sieve. Meanwhile, you have civilians from that area as well as reporters who saw the separatists with the BUK missile systems. US intelligence has satellite photos of Russians bringing them across the border.

What is "coronate media" anyway? Do you mean corporate media? How are you getting your misinformation? RT, Russian state controlled media? Or maybe Smiley's right and you just coax it out of your wee ass.

Some things never change ............................................................ (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/yawning005.gif)

Indeed. The sort of people who hailed the destabilisation of the Middle East (support our troops = bomb Iraq) are screaming now for the destabilization of Eurasia.
Disgusting.

Meanwhile, you have civilians from that area as well as reporters who saw the separatists with the BUK missile systems.

Yeah and the earth is flat. Isn't it?

Human rights investigations: Ukraine’s “Krasnodon” video actually in Lugansk (http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/07/22/ukraines-krasnodon-video-actually-in-lugansk/)

or here: Bogus photos of ‘Russian’ air-defense systems in Ukraine debunked by bloggers (http://rt.com/news/174868-ukraine-buk-falsification-continues/)

Or this: Human rights investigations: Evidence of undercover Russian troops in Ukraine debunked (http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/04/22/evidence-of-undercover-russian-troops-in-ukraine-debunked/)

US intelligence has satellite photos of Russians bringing them across the border.

Where are those satellite photos made by US intelligence?

On the other hand there are satellite photos of Ukrainian BUK missile batteries deployed in the region short before the tragic incident.
Western madia doesn't even mention about those sattelite photos.

There was an US espionage sattelite and two AWACS over Ukraine at the time of the tragic incident.
Where are the photos they have made?

Only thing we are witnessing are fierce propaganda and inconsistent allegations culminating in hoaxes like this:

We now have clear evidence of artillery and rocket fire from Russia into Ukraine (http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/english/texttrans/2014/07/20140729304590.html#axzz38tBrAMJ8) - Another State Department Hoax? (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/27/another-state-department-hoax-paul-craig-roberts/)

Even the faked proofs presented at the UN by the USA for Iraq's WoMD have been more consistent.

Too true there krake. Unfortunately the brained like Sanguinemoon and SmileyFaze are incapable of even considering another scenario. Previous pictures were proved to be untrue as well but the White House spokeswoman who was so arrogant at saying they were true said nothing later when it was found she wasn't right.

Unfortunately the brained like Sanguinemoon and SmileyFaze are incapable of even considering another scenario.

Another scenario would be more interesting. I wonder if Krake actually bothered to read the article he offered. The author's article himself doesn't believe the email is from the State Department and questions if the information would be released in such a way.

So the most likely scenario stays the same. Russia supplied the separatists with a Soviet era surface to air missile system. The incompetent, trigger happy separatists managed to confused a commercial Malaysian flight with a Ukrainian troop transport and shut it down.

Now the Embassy link that Krake provides does say "We now have clear evidence of artillery and rocket fire from Russia into Ukraine." However, that happened between July 21 -26, after the downing of MH17. So it has nothing to do with this particular incident.

And where Sanguinemoon  did you get the "fact" that Russia supplied the Ukrainian rebels with that missile? If Kiev based or conjured up by the White House with unverifiable "facts" tehn I have to say that I moved from Primary School to Secondary at 11 years and left fairy tales behind.

Not exactly on topic, but this pic is in line with my feeling about flying.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FPZCbTUD.jpg&hash=b002db9da014f458cfff7acbc195e377" rel="cached" data-hash="b002db9da014f458cfff7acbc195e377" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/PZCbTUD.jpg)

And where Sanguinemoon  did you get the "fact" that Russia supplied the Ukrainian rebels with that missile? If Kiev based or conjured up by the White House with unverifiable "facts" tehn I have to say that I moved from Primary School to Secondary at 11 years and left fairy tales behind.

Sang does not say it was a fact, he says that it is the most likely scenario.

I agree with him, given all that has transpired.

All that has transpired??
Well I don't as it seems to fall into the trap of West media and politicians. However is responsible (if we ever find out) from which ever side needs condemnation. Meanwhile in wonderful Ukraine there are demands that a 2nd WW Nazi leader in Ukraine should be recognised and commemorated. That tells you something even more about the mess of a place as it has learned nothing. Supported Hitler in the west of the country and every year there have been marches to mark their Nazi volunteers in the 1940's. And this is the lot you are all falling in behind. The place is as corrupt as hell, run by a President who is a wealthy oligarch and has Nazis in his government. You couldn't make the damn silliness up here.

I agree with him, given all that has transpired.

What has transpired is what every side had interest to get transpired. Most of them are based on speculations or shady evidences. Depending on what sources one reads everybody is allowed to draw the conclusions he is inclined for anyway, personal bias included.

Good luck with that.

Bellingcat unravels Russian post-truth on the attack on MH17

https://youtu.be/mozxTk3Brqw

Bellingcat unravels Russian post-truth on the attack on MH17

Bellingcat?
Is this the sort of analyst and journalist you give credit and recommend? :left:

Eliot Higgins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins): Occupation - blogger, 'weapons analyst' and 'citizen journalist' (so to speak none)

Higgins has no background or training in weapons and is entirely self-taught, saying that "Before the Arab spring I knew no more about weapons than the average Xbox owner. I had no knowledge beyond what I'd learned from Arnold Schwarzenegger and Rambo." Higgins does not speak or read Arabic.

Unfortunately, no words about schooling and professional training. All we know is that he doesn't speak Arabic (sic). Wonder if he speaks any other language than his one. :D

BTW, is this (https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15179151_1734650156862632_3517142229583820227_n.jpg?oh=a45d96b87d5faacf2e949934bcd3ced3&oe=58B5A332)
also a Bellingcat fabrication?

Bellingcat?
Is this the sort of analyst and journalist you give credit and recommend?  :left:

Eliot Higgins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Higgins): Occupation - blogger, 'weapons analyst' and 'citizen journalist' (so to speak none)

Unfortunately, no words about schooling and professional training. All we know is that he doesn't speak Arabic (sic). Wonder if he speaks any other language than his one

Yes, open crowd-sourced investigative journalism has a lot of potential, as well as significant pitfalls. Without a working framework you can "prove" anything. 

It is crucial that the sources are open and testable for outside parties, ideally with a framework more like science and less like journalism. In other words preferably something equivalent to the double-blind, randomized, placebo-controlled trial. At the same time we can't expect good faith from all parties. Powerful entities like major powers, corporations and organisations will try to snow down, disparage or make fake controversy for the research.  Since the extreme right and left trust everything from Russia and nothing from their own government that is a real concern.

He cut his teeth on finding ISIL locations based on their outdoor photographs, a habit they stopped with shortly after. It took two items in the public domain, the aforementioned photos, and Google Maps. It is possible that a trained and experienced analyst, and/or good algorithms could do better. We can even assume so. With a few pieces of string the whole picture can be unravelled. 

The good news that even the most powerful organisations can be caught in their lies, and they don't come more powerful than the Russian government, the US and Chinese governments excepted. 

Usual brain dead anti-Russia stuff?

Yes, because if it comes from Russia it must be true. If it doesn't come from Russia it can't be true.

Since the extreme right and left trust everything from Russia and nothing from their own government that is a real concern.

IMHO, there is an even bigger concern.
Western media became a manipulative propaganda tool which most people don't trust anymore for good reasons. This applies not only to Europe but also to the USA.
So it's not only the extreme right and left who don't trust our media but an overhelming majority.

“You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time” or speaking of journalism, it reminds me a quote of George Orwell.
“Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed: everything else is public relations.”

http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx)

Quote from: jax on 2016-11-23, 08:31:29

Since the extreme right and left trust everything from Russia and nothing from their own government that is a real concern.

IMHO, there is an even bigger concern.
Western media became a manipulative propaganda tool which most people don't trust anymore for good reasons. This applies not only to Europe but also to the USA.
So it's not only the extreme right and left who don't trust our media but an overhelming majority.

I seriously doubt most (Western) people don't trust (Western) media. If you mean people like yourself, who have reactively turned to rely on Russian media, we are talking about a fringe minority. If you mean generally reasonable source-critical people who are source-critical with every source, that's again a minority, a section of well-educated people.

In the West, I think media has ceased to offer things that cater to people's needs and desires, except vanity and commercials, which do their job just fine. If this is true for the overwhelming majority, that's a concern. But it's not a potentially explosive concern. It means the majority of Western people are perfectly predictable automatons, with no free will of their own. Trusting or non-trusting does not even enter the picture.

But in Russia, most people are nothing like this. They think their media is the source of all interesting/true information about the world. No question about it.

But in Russia, most people are nothing like this. They think their media is the source of all interesting/true information about the world. No question about it.

Do you seriously believe that? That Russians trust their media?

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-24, 12:45:44

But in Russia, most people are nothing like this. They think their media is the source of all interesting/true information about the world. No question about it.

Do you seriously believe that? That Russians trust their media?

I know common Russians personally, so I don't have to go by belief. Edit: Trust is not the right word. Russians are hopelessly in love with the way Russian TV, radio and newspapers tell them things, and fully dependent on it. Like junkies. Or like Apple fans on Apple products. That's how they rely on it./edit

Then there are those among them with the capacity and innate willingness to do source-criticism. A small minority, just like in the West.

Okay.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx (http://www.gallup.com/poll/195542/americans-trust-mass-media-sinks-new-low.aspx)

Gallup poll from 2005-2006:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pixhoster.info%2Ff%2F2016-11%2F31f94d273179a609dc6059941dbdbcac.png&hash=2db58b8924d70768505861f54504f4f4" rel="cached" data-hash="2db58b8924d70768505861f54504f4f4" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.pixhoster.info/f/2016-11/31f94d273179a609dc6059941dbdbcac.png)
Quality and Integrity of World’s Media Questioned (http://www.gallup.com/poll/103300/quality-integrity-worlds-media-questioned.aspx)

I seriously doubt most (Western) people don't trust (Western) media. If you mean people like yourself, who have reactively turned to rely on Russian media, we are talking about a fringe minority.

You are entitled to doubt as much as you wish. :)
You are free to assume that I represent the typical average American who doesn't trust its own media either.
Of course I can't tell about people from very important countries of the Western world like Estonia or Latvia.

This has nothing to do with Russia, Russians or Russian media. I can't imagine that the average American or the average German, French or Italian have all reactively turned to rely on Russian media. ;)

BTW,

I know common Russians personally, so I don't have to go by belief. Edit: Trust is not the right word. Russians are hopelessly in love with the way Russian TV, radio and newspapers tell them things, and fully dependent on it. Like junkies.

You may take a look at the image above.
However, your Russophobia stands above any belief. :left:

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-24, 20:45:44

I seriously doubt most (Western) people don't trust (Western) media. If you mean people like yourself, who have reactively turned to rely on Russian media, we are talking about a fringe minority.

You are entitled to doubt as much as you wish. :)
You are free to assume that I represent the typical average...

Didn't I say that you (you personally) represent a fringe minority? Yes, I said that. So you're not a typical average of anything. Now I doubt your ability to read. And that's not typical either, not even for you.

BTW,

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-24, 22:37:14

I know common Russians personally, so I don't have to go by belief. Edit: Trust is not the right word. Russians are hopelessly in love with the way Russian TV, radio and newspapers tell them things, and fully dependent on it. Like junkies.

You may take a look at the image above.
However, your Russophobia stands above any belief. :left:

Didn't I say that trust is not the right word? Yes, I said that. Do junkies trust their drugs? They are dependent on them. Trust is not the right word.

Russians are similar in relation to their media. They need to hear the beautiful tone of their language, they need to see other Russians and feel united with them. And the reporting gets swallowed on the side.

Polls that ask about trust in media are asking the wrong question. That's the wrong word for the general population anyway. Trust in media is a meaningful concept for journalists and politicians for their professional purposes. They are not the general population. 

Quote from: krake on 2016-11-25, 00:00:36

You are entitled to doubt as much as you wish. :)
You are free to assume that I represent the typical average...

Didn't I say that you (you personally) represent a fringe minority? Yes, I said that. So you're not a typical average of anything. Now I doubt your ability to read.

Most Americans don't trust their media. Same applies for Europeans. Hence average Americans don't trust their media. Those who do are a minority.
Can you grasp it or it's too complicated for your intellect? :left:
   

Didn't I say that trust is not the right word? Yes, I said that. Do junkies trust their drugs? They are dependent on them. Trust is not the right word.

Russians are similar in relation to their media. They need to hear the beautiful tone of their language, they need to see other Russians and feel united with them. And the reporting gets swallowed on the side.

Yeah, for sure. Russians are a total different human species, in your Russophobe mindset at least. :)

Polls that ask about trust in media are asking the wrong question. That's the wrong word for the general population anyway. Trust in media is a meaningful concept for journalists and politicians for their professional purposes. They are not the general population.

So the general population doesn't watch or read news, according to you at least.

Go on, wonder what your intellect will breed next. General population doesn't care what their government does or propagate through the media?
Hence according to your 'logic', trust in media is totally irrelavant, the wrong term so to speak.

So the general population doesn't watch or read news, according to you at least.

They watch and read, but it has nothing to do with trust.

General population doesn't care what their government does or propagate through the media?
Hence according to your 'logic', trust in media is totally irrelavant, the wrong term so to speak.

Population may care a lot (about totally different things than what the government wants), but it has no practical significance as long as they don't do what they care about. Media is one of the forces keeping the population dispersed.

People consume media. These days people get their news from Facebook and Twitter, hardly distinguishing between commercials, neighbourhood rumours, prank videos, and journalism. That's why it doesn't make sense to speak about trust in media from the point of view of the general population. It's addictive-compulsive consumption.

For you, geopoliticial analysis based on first-hand knowledge of Russia and Russians equals Russophobia. That's a situation like an Apple fan hearing from another Apple user whose iPhone exploded. The other user could say that, upon investigation, Apple has a history of bad products and manipulative business practices. Of course the fan will never believe it. In response, the fan would investigate Microsoft history and see many blameworthy things there (of course!) and that's somehow supposed to mean that Apple is perfect.

You should try some actual research about Russia - not NATO or whatever, but about Russia. Russia is a big country, the biggest in terms of territory. They are fully capable of making their own independent decisions and in fact they have. Even if you do that, it's guaranteed we will never be on the same page. But I'm sure you won't even try to get acquainted with what Russia actually is.

Quote from: krake on 2016-11-25, 11:21:18

So the general population doesn't watch or read news, according to you at least.

They watch and read, but it has nothing to do with trust.

I see.
According to you, one can show or tell them anything, true or false. They'll consume and digest it anyway with their brains switched off, so it has nothing to do with trust.

For you, geopoliticial analysis based on first-hand knowledge of Russia and Russians equals Russophobia.

I'll correct that for you.
For me, 'geopolitical analysis based on first-hand knowledge of Russia and Russians' coming from a Russophobe is worthless trash. Period.

According to you, one can show or tell them anything, true or false. They'll consume and digest it anyway with their brains switched off, so it has nothing to do with trust.

More or less, particularly if you bear in mind that the Facebook/Twitter/YT generation is actively seeking anything to be told to them, regardless of truth value. Meanwhile, normal journalism has some standards to live up to, ethics to follow, a reputation to keep up and a duty to do, which means it's losing the competition. People only know "media". They don't know journalism.

For me, 'geopolitical analysis based on first-hand knowledge of Russia and Russians' coming from a Russophobe is worthless trash. Period.

I know my own relationship with Russians and to Russia. You evidently don't want to know. You are pretty close to turning me into a Germanophobe. Good job.

…you guys remind me of the wisdom of George Washington when he cautioned our young nation to stay clear of the squabbles of Europe! :)

…you guys remind me of the wisdom of George Washington when he cautioned our young nation to stay clear of the squabbles of Europe! :)

And why was that wise? Because it's stupid to lose men, money and time in the squabbles between UK, France and Germany in the overpopulated Europe when there's all that open space and natural resources in the other direction up for grabs. US easily matches UK in colonisation, probably surpasses by now.

How would money rich paysants, as Americans, ever resist to stay clear from European status class...
They even buy castles and move it to Texas...

Well I suppose bullying castles and moving them replaces the boredom of always playing at cowboy mentalities.

And why was that wise? Because it's stupid to lose men, money and time in the squabbles between UK, France and Germany in the overpopulated Europe when there's all that open space and natural resources in the other direction up for grabs. US easily matches UK in colonisation, probably surpasses by now.

Oh? How many colonies do we have? :)

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-26, 00:58:38

And why was that wise? Because it's stupid to lose men, money and time in the squabbles between UK, France and Germany in the overpopulated Europe when there's all that open space and natural resources in the other direction up for grabs. US easily matches UK in colonisation, probably surpasses by now.

Oh? How many colonies do we have? :)

You don't know? It's not fashionable to call them colonies, but here they are:

Puerto Rico, American Samoa, all those things you call "territories", all those things formerly called "territories" and now annexed, such as Hawaii and Alaska. Also, everything you annexed ("admitted to the union") by way of expansion after the original 13 states.

Russia has expanded throughout its history and annexed much territory. It's largely contiguous territory, so maybe it doesn't look like colonies to you, but it's quite accurate to say that Central Asia, Siberia and Alaska were colonised by Russia.

Northern Ireland is a UK colony, as all Ireland used to be. Let's see you argue that it isn't.

@OakdaleFTL

Half of Mexico? (https://academic.udayton.edu/race/02rights/guadalu3.htm)

all those things formerly called "territories" and now annexed, such as Hawaii and Alaska

They bought Alaska to the Russians, for four or five million dollars at the time. I don't know what Russians had in mind... not too much of a good business.

I try to make allowances for your ignorance ersi on that part of Gt Britain -namely Northern Ireland.  You are obviously in the old way out nationalist tradition (being moderate with you). Ulster made it plain in 1922 it wanted to still be part of Britain and it still does today. What silly drink do you gallon down your silly throat? Efen many in the corner you support are content to be where they are and sods you off.

I try to make allowances for your ignorance ersi on that part of Gt Britain -namely Northern Ireland.  You are obviously in the old way out nationalist tradition (being moderate with you). Ulster made it plain in 1922 it wanted to still be part of Britain and it still does today. What silly drink do you gallon down your silly throat? Efen many in the corner you support are content to be where they are and sods you off.

None of this disproves Northern Ireland being a colony.

But let's look closer how Ulster made things plain in 1922. The Parliament of Northern Ireland issued a resolution of loyalty to British government. The Parliament of Northern Ireland had convened just a year earlier by the decision of British government after partitioning the country, as Home Rule was enacted. Now the Home Rule (designed to keep independence away from Ireland) has long since ceased to be, as Ireland became actually independent, the Parliament of Northern Ireland became defunct in the 70's, but that resolution should still count for something? It's about as smooth legitimacy as in Crimea.

oh the usual American-irish type of stuff about ulster.

In 1914 Ireland had a bill passed in the UK parliament for a government but the 1WW of course interrupted that. Even modern former Irish Prime Ministers like John Brutin aid the Easter Rising thing was not needed. By 1922 things in Ireland were getting far too beyond what the northern province wanted to be part of and made it well clear they had no wish to be in an independent Ireland. This was accepted by Britain and that was that so don't start coming up with sly attempts at something else. Talk about fairy tale attempts to try and alter practical history. Ulster is still content to be in Britain and the more moderate nationalists in Stormont know this even if it is beyond you. Great co-operation does exist between Ulster and Eire and that is good because the old Irish grump nationalism and has been educated out of the chair and been a benefit to the southern republic. In the ulster parliament the people constantly trying to be losing the border are that Sinn fein scum and the more moderate nationalists are more sensible than that bunch of murderous trolls. If you think that the border is going to move away then you are in cloud cuckoo land and I will use Lord Carson's answer to the Border movement idea....."Not an inch."

If you think that the border is going to move away...

No, I don't think that. And the fact that the border is not going anywhere proves my point. (You of course never noticed what my point was.)

I know you don't do answers, but here's a question: Was Ireland (that which is now independent) colonised by UK or not?

I'll take the opportunity of answering for RJ — since he doesn't answer questions, either!
Ireland was conquered, not colonized…

Ireland was conquered, not colonized…

And the difference between the two is....?

To make it more concrete, list the relevant characteristics that distinguish the conquest of Ireland from the conquest of e.g. South Africa, so that we can see what makes one a colony and the other not.

(You know, you don't do answers either...)

And the difference between the two is....?

That would depend on whether you include the settlement of people from the subjugating country in your definition. That would be the more traditional definition of a colony from antiquity, analogous to how @OakdaleFTL likes to use the word democracy. More concretely, Indonesia was a Dutch colony but there was never a policy of settlement nor was there spontaneous settlement like in South Africa. Places like Indonesia and Belgian Congo were colonies for profit, whereas Ireland was (also) a colony for settlement. Which brings me to my conclusion, namely that in the case of Ireland there is no room for that kind of (somewhat silly) argument. After the initial conquest there was also planned settlement (i.e., the Plantation of Ulster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster)).

Quote from: ersi on 2016-11-29, 11:35:44

And the difference between the two is....?

That would depend on whether you include the settlement of people from the subjugating country in your definition. That would be the more traditional definition of a colony from antiquity,...

Seems to me that you're saying: The easier it is to de-colonise, the less of a colony it was in the first place. I think I'd agree, but Ireland has been very tough to de-colonise and even the independent part has not been de-colonised very well. The people lost their language, for one.

Or are you heading towards: After a thorough cycle of expulsion and repopulation, it ceases to be a colony and becomes part of the motherland. That's how U.S. would argue for their 50 states and Russia for all its expansion.

Places like Indonesia and Belgian Congo were colonies for profit, whereas Ireland was (also) a colony for settlement. Which brings me to my conclusion, namely that in the case of Ireland there is no room for that kind of (somewhat silly) argument. After the initial conquest there was also planned settlement (i.e., the Plantation of Ulster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster)).

What/whose silly argument are you referring to?

Seems to me that you're saying: The easier it is to de-colonise, the less of a colony it was in the first place. I think I'd agree, but Ireland has been very tough to de-colonise and even the independent part has not been de-colonised very well. The people lost their language, for one.

Implicitly I am saying that, but what I'm getting at is that I can understand how some people might say that colonies for profit aren't "real" colonies. In English there isn't really any standardized vocabulary for this, but in Dutch there are the words wingewest^[1] and kolonie.^[2] This allows one to say that Indonesia was both a profit area and a colony in the 20th century, but solely a profit area in the 18th century.

Of course you'd be quite right to signal that it can be a deceptive way to put it, but the distinction lies in the fact that Indonesia the profit colony used to be exploited and administrated by the Dutch East India Company. Later on Indonesia became an official part of the Dutch Empire. Being an official colony is actually better than being a profit area, because the Dutch government is accountable for much more than just profit to its shareholders. Abuse and injustice might result in impeachment or even jail. The same could be seen in Belgian Congo, which was just King Leopold II's private playtorture ground before it became an official colony.

Or are you heading towards: After a thorough cycle of expulsion and repopulation, it ceases to be a colony and becomes part of the motherland. That's how U.S. would argue for their 50 states and Russia for all its expansion.

Not me, but it's probably the only way to argue that certain areas aren't colonies. While it can be used deceptively, the word profit area can also help to avoid this problem. Siberia is a profit area regardless whether or not it's (still) a colony.

Dutch Empire

That must be for turning my usual disdain about the Anglo Saxon towards the "Am I English Am I German??" Hollandeers.
Remember the beating you always had everytime you tried to steal our colonies.

Never the world saw such thieves as Hollandeers. It seems you profited a lot with all the sephardite jews we've expulsed from here and went directly to there. It seems that you keep on profiting... or maybe the jews profit on you, who knows.

Ya gotta love the squabbling of Europeans! Just as ya gotta stay clear of their wars… :)

Just as well we know that is meant to be a satirical touch Oakdale. You lot have been in war after war, invasions, de-stabilising and so on. Three out of three for the attempt.

Which makes your history go away…? :)

Remember the beating you always had everytime you tried to steal our colonies.

Can't say I do. The Portuguese took Brazil from the Dutch; the Dutch (East India Company) took Indonesia from the Portuguese. Other places like Angola went back and forth a little, but on the whole the only real result is that the English gained a stronger worldwide position.

Ya gotta love the squabbling of Europeans! Just as ya gotta stay clear of their wars… :)

No can do. The wars come to you. These days those darn Europeans just stick one of their Nimitz supercarriers near your coast. ;)

We should perhaps remember Oakdale that you have been involved since the end of WW2 (and before) in up keeping military dictatorships right across South America and well in front of anyone regarding hypocrisy and mayhem. While we get on with running democracy you lot are up to your ears in militarism whilst tens of millions of Yanks starve.

The Portuguese took Brazil from the Dutch;

Are you drunk? Oh yes you are.

Other places like Angola went back and forth a little

Drunk again.

but on the whole the only real result is that the English gained a stronger worldwide position

Thanks to the Hollandeer thieves.

One day I will post about the ridiculous English African explorations...  how idiot Livingstones  and the sort were found lost and dying and helped by simple Portuguese colonizers...  :lol:

What a bunch of cretins.

David Livingstone rescued by Iberian papists?! Duh! Having carried the begging bowl to the EU for ages one would have thought you should have spent some on education dear man.When that great Proddy missionary died his African appreciators carried him right across the continent for a return home. May I also enlighten the Iberian muse that it was a British Empire and a vast number of the administrators were Scottish hence the efficiency which was better than what passed in yours.

I would muse Belfrager in saying yes Prince William of Orange was a Dutchman and he ensured that we got a Bill of Rights and the start of modern democracy.  His wife was the daughter of King James whom we got rid of with his white socks man religion. King William bringing in that Bill was the start of a great new political direction. Your place was left in darkness and no change or progress. Roman rule was always a basis for depression.

Hey, Bel: How does it feel to be inconsequential? :) You can't even keep your "pure" language a going concern: Brazil has overwhelmed you by sheer numbers!
But I enjoy the back and forth between you and Howie… It's like watching fans fighting out in the parking lot outside of the arena where a bout will occur.

David Livingstone rescued by Iberian papists?! Duh!

Welcome to a little bit example of reality. Don't look too much for reality, reality would kill you from instantaneous heart attack, better to you to remain in ignorance. Fantasy and illusion are your natural environment.

Hey, Bel: How does it feel to be inconsequential?

My dear Sioux friend, assuming that you know the meaning of inconsequential (which is not certain...) would you care stating about what am I inconsequential with?

He has got a nerve dear Portuguese man. Just look at how he tries to cross swords with me.  One has to make allowances as he's a Yank.

My dear Sioux friend

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux… My family is English and Irish!

assuming that you know the meaning of inconsequential (which is not certain...) would you care stating about what am I inconsequential with?

Of course! You're talking to RJHowie, a known and well-documented racist! Portuguese are notoriously not!
You are Portuguese, hence not a Prot/Prog! QED.
For Howie, that means you are inconsequential!
Howie's mind doesn't have the capacity of understanding what others say: If you aren't an Orangeman, you must be speaking gibberish!
(I often find your English to be easier understood than our "esteemed" Scotsman's… :)

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-12-01, 05:04:51

My dear Sioux friend

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux… My family is English and Irish!

But this means you worship the Queen of England and you're Catholic :o That's anti-American! Sioux would be American.

Of course! You're talking to RJHowie, a known and well-documented racist! Portuguese are notoriously not!
You are Portuguese, hence not a Prot/Prog! QED.
For Howie, that means you are inconsequential!
Howie's mind doesn't have the capacity of understanding what others say: If you aren't an Orangeman, you must be speaking gibberish!
(I often find your English to be easier understood than our "esteemed" Scotsman's...  :)

I'm out of this. Who's Howie?

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux... My family is English and Irish!

Sorry, all Americans are to me Sioux, Cheyenne and the sort. As any European looks to you.
You must complain to the British for stollen your identity, for fooling you that you would be someone around us, not to me.
Anyway I've appreciated your sincere answer. :)

I'm not sure why you call me a Sioux…

Isn't it awesome?
A Portuguese (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?PHPSESSID=2997e297991053237fc979e02e5669a3&topic=2476.msg68117#msg68117) Shitting Bull is complimenting an American Sitting Bull! This one could stand for the initiation of a devout and everlasting friendship. :)

Well, Belfrager and I are -something like friends…
Still, we disagree on much. (But not everything. I'm a "lapsed" Catholic; but I know what I've "lapsed" from, and I still adhere to our catechism — for the most part.)

Well at least the Pope can breathe a sigh of relief......

Well, Belfrager and I are -something like friends...

Belfrager is "something like friends" with everybody here no matter if people are Catholic, a sort of Catholic or anything else.
One day, we will remember when it was possible to people like us to speak freely one to others, and how important it was.

It will not last too long.

One day, we will remember when it was possible to people like us to speak freely one to others, and how important it was.

I doubt that free speech will disappear…in the U.S. Of course, in the Netherlands as in much of Europe "hate speech" is doing a yeoman's job!
The idea that you don't dare offend government protected classes presupposes classes… And gives them political representation not afforded individuals. (Yes, I think that's a very bad idea!) The coercive power of government is best prescribed and, else, proscribed.
That's what the U.S. Constitution tried to do.

But note that our gracious host, Frenzie, and his selected moderators (most of whom we know well) have not been opposed to free speech — in fact, they've fostered it.

But note that our gracious host, Frenzie, and his selected moderators (most of whom we know well) have not been opposed to free speech -- in fact, they've fostered it.

We say that "one sparrow doesn't makes spring arriving".
Free speech is not guaranteed by half a dozen individuals, it needs to be a collective's characteristic. People in general and specially new generations, be it in the US or in Europe, are already conditionated as Pavlov's dogs, they don't salivate for free speech but for materialism and a deep coma like state of idiotacy they call happiness.

I doubt that free speech will disappear...in the U.S. Of course, in the Netherlands as in much of Europe "hate speech" is doing a yeoman's job!

Are you referring to some recent event? Geert Wilders was rightfully acquitted of all charges a few years back.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-13883331

Mr Wilders has compared the Koran to Hitler's Mein Kampf.

Judge van Oosten said that although the bench found remarks by Mr Wilders "gross and denigrating", they had not given rise to hatred.

The verdict was greeted with applause from Mr Wilders' supporters in the public gallery.

The judge found him guilty of "insulting a group and incitement to discrimination"... Figuring that the conviction was punishment enough, no fine or other punishment was given!

Ah, I seem to have missed the latest. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38260377

Sorry, Wilders is in the news constantly because he said this or that. :P

I'll have a look at the court's verdict in Dutch if I can find it.

Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNVfMG6jfIY

Wikipedia (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweede_zaak-Geert_Wilders) quickly gave me a link to the verdict (https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inziendocument?id=ECLI:NL:RBDHA:2016:15014). I thought section 3.3 sounded perhaps a little more relevant than it should.

De rechtbank heeft verdachte steeds de cautie gegeven, ook bij de aanvang van de inhoudelijke behandeling, als hij twitterde. Het was de rechtbank namelijk niet ontgaan dat verdachte zich meermalen over deze strafzaak en de rechtbank had uitgelaten in berichten op zijn Twitteraccount. Zo schreef verdachte over een ‘neprechtbank’, dat het vonnis al klaar lag en publiceerde hij foto’s van de rechters met een verwijzing naar de politieke partij D66. Een feitelijke onderbouwing daarvan of een toelichting daarop heeft de rechtbank nergens kunnen ontwaren. Ook in zijn laatste woord heeft verdachte zich bepaald niet onbetuigd gelaten.

De rechtbank acht deze reacties een gekozen volksvertegenwoordiger en medewetgever die een te respecteren plaats in de Nederlandse democratische rechtsstaat inneemt, onwaardig.

In summary, the suspect tweeted multiple times that it was a "fake court" and other such insults while proceedings were ongoing, as if a verdict had already been reached in advance Soviet Union style, without any evidence. The court considers this attitude unworthy of a representative.

Under 5.1.2 the crux of the matter is brought forward. It's not just the often quoted "do you want more or less Moroccans" (less! less! less!) but that he subsequently said: we'll take care of that.

They did not find him guilty of inciting hatred.

They did find him guilty of inciting discrimination (against Moroccans, a race in the legal sense), but not of doing so with predetermination.

I agree with the court in the matter of the interpretation of the law. Wilders might well have fallen off the legal tightrope in the other direction if he'd said criminal Moroccans. This is in fact what Wilders argues he meant, because his party stands for "fewer criminals, less immigration, and voluntary remigration." But perhaps uncharitably I'm more inclined to see it as a Freudian slip. It's interesting in this light that one of the witnesses (a PVV party member) testified that for them the "less Moroccans" thing came completely out of thin air precisely because the focus isn't (supposed to be?) on Moroccans.

According to the Gatestone Institute, Labor representatives have unsurprisingly been saying significantly worse things without ever being prosecuted.

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9533/the-guilty-verdict-dutch-politicians-wanted-so

    "We also have s*** Moroccans over here." Rob Oudkerk, Dutch Labour Party (PvDA) politician.
    "We must humiliate Moroccans." Hans Spekman, PvDA politician.
    "Moroccans have the ethnic monopoly on trouble-making." Diederik Samsom, PvDA politician.

So there's that. However, that's on the prosecutor or the plaintiff, not the court.

What's "on" the culture is political correctness and the concept of "hate crime"... Very Orwellian! :) (Yeah: Blame it on the British socialist! :) )

The less dogs, the less likely to be bitten. Not saying that every dog bites. But they are well known for doing that sometimes.
I smell overreaction somewhere.
If somebody said "less Brazilians, less whoredom", it would be only ourselves to blame.
BTW, any news on Malaysian Airlines MH17? :left:

What's "on" the culture is political correctness and the concept of "hate crime"... Very Orwellian!  :)

Possibly, but then it's been on pretty much since 1848. I wrote much the same thing a couple of years ago (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=502.msg27565#msg27565).

BTW, any news on Malaysian Airlines MH17?  :left:

Nope. :P

Wilders happens to be right and I think morphing Moroccans into a racist corner is ridiculous. They are a problem in the Netherlands and many Dutch know this hence the rise of Wilder's party.  So because he and large numbers of his fellow countrymen/women think that Moroccan immigrants are a problem you are not allowed an opinion on them?

Since "Moroccan" isn't a race, doesn't someone who leaves Morocco stop being Moroccan? :)

The legal definition of race in this case is more like ethnic group. You can get all the details under 5.4.2 in the ruling. It comes down to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Convention_on_the_Elimination_of_All_Forms_of_Racial_Discrimination) (ICERD), the first article of which reads:

In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin (emphasis mine) which has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life.

So in legalese the word race is interpreted somewhat differently than in regular speech. But none of that is new, really, because the constitution has always protected against discrimination based on race, religion, worldview or any other grounds. Slightly newer (but quite a bit older than me) are the explicit protections against discrimination based on gender, sexual orientation and handicap in regular law, but that's just a matter of implementing the broad brush of the constitution.

And you don't see how crazy that is…?

Protip: the term legalese is pejorative. ;)

Just as well we know that is meant to be a satirical touch Oakdale. You lot have been in war after war, invasions, de-stabilising and so on. Three out of three for the attempt.

We've had such good teachers...Europe and the grand colonizer....
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fukflag.facts.co%2FUK-Flag.png&hash=7ed8e900d9a7bd5a909e03d3b3488b06" rel="cached" data-hash="7ed8e900d9a7bd5a909e03d3b3488b06" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://ukflag.facts.co/UK-Flag.png)

Nah you ignored our way and being young and full of such youthful pomposity thought you could be different Mr Tennessee. My flag is special but you haven't caught up any mature experience really! :whistle:

Drie keer levenslang, eenmaal vrijspraak in het MH17-proces (https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2022/11/17/vrijspraak-voor-een-van-vier-verdachten-mh17-overige-uitspraken-volgen-nog-a4148573)

So the responsibility for having shot down this airplane is deemed to be on Russia.

The same can be said of the missile that landed in Poland. Even if it turns out to be a Ukrainian air defence missile, it was launched under a Russian rocket attack all over the country.