The DnD Sanctuary

Its is now over 4,000 who have sailed across the damn Channel to alight in southern England coast. The French are doing almost sod all and in one tv report they showed that parts of French coast not checked at all abd sailing seen moving off. Maybe France thinks that is okay as they want to leave and go somewhere better but it is a damnable ridiculous thing constantly letting our British population to soar up for far too long. Crept up from a once 48 million an this island is getting ridiculous with 66 million and now estimates this will get to 70 million and keep going as those getting here have bigger families and also costing heavy costs.  When one considers the size of this island and getting too many folk in the population I get angry at so-called liberal minds who taken no notice of such things. Some even think there could be a hundred million at the end of the century.

France is a waste of time yet we get reports they would want money to look after their coast departing crooks??

Do you fear that your wee isle will capsize? :)

Yep Oakdale I do think it will capsize!

Growing up here we had 48 million people now it is 66 million and experts are saying that we will pass 70 million on this wee island. Indeed some experts are musing on over 100 million by the end of this century. Te general matter is that those who flood in here tend to have larger families than what was the traditional population. It is bad enough trying to cope with the difficulties of this and indeed the sheer cost. Now we get these others coming across the English Channel and think they can danmn well ignore the routine immigration matter. Damnable and the future wil be worse.

Do you remember Paul Ehrlich's "The Population Bomb" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb)? Our world ended at least forty years ago... We just didn't notice!
So, no worries.

So far non-Western immigrant family sizes have always normalized within 1-2 generations. By that time perhaps new immigrants will continue to pop in with oddly large families but the descendants of those old immigrants will pretty much be "us."

And following your description of us we would be duly dumped into a minority of our own country and stuck with a mess.

I disagree with the premise. I'm not a third-generation German or Frenchman contributing to making Dutch people a minority. I'm just Dutch, as is my father, and I'd probably find it somewhat insulting if you insisted my grandmother wasn't Dutch even though she didn't acquire the nationality at birth. It's possible that you'd have to add an extra generation or two for non-Western immigrants who don't marry a Dutch partner, but the basic principle is the same. This Syrian teen I tutored a bit a few years ago, he's practically Dutch/Belgian already. If he'll ever have any children, they'll be Dutch/Belgian with "foreign" aunts, uncles & grandparents, meaning they speak accented or broken Dutch and they'll have some slightly different customs. They wouldn't be unlike my dad.

But even if we take the premise at face value and assume that by 2150 "us" Europeans technically become a minority (i.e., less than 50 %), we'd still be the biggest and most powerful minority. Not a minority group in a disadvantaged sense.

Cultural identity is not made of bureaucratic papers, it's made of common history.
Multiculturalism is a fraud, it destroys identity and replaces heritage with.. nothing.

Multiculturism is something that I do not accept and a damn misused activity.

There is no requirement to be big to be successful, I am sure the Maltese and the Icelanders are happy as they are. However if you want to brag about being globally influential then size does indeed matter. 

The population of UK has barely grown since 1950, and the population of Scotland has for a long while actually shrunk. With it, the impact the UK has on the world. Population size alone doesn't determine your influence, but in the long run population size sustains the economy size and the economy size sustains your cultural, political, military, technological impact. 

Again, nothing wrong with being inconsequential, that has a lot of advantages, but you can't both have that and brag about how important you are. 

So again, for the benefit of RJHow. 

We are now in 2020, 70% of the way from 1950 to 2050. In 1950 the UK had 1/51th of the world's population. In 2020 this has shrunk to 1/111th and by 2050 1/132nd.

For the US the numbers are 1/17th, 1/23rd and 1/24th respectively. Norway is already inconsequential, with 1/
783rd, 1/1392nd and 1/1478th respectively.

Or, if we were to compare with the UK directly, the prognosis for 2050 is that the UK will catch up with Norway somewhat, but fall further behind the US and the world.

How the deuce do you come out with that weirdness that the UK population has NOT grown since 1950?? Scotlands' has only risen slightly recently but why are you contradicting British figures?

The needle has barely moved. The population in Britain has increased with 1/3 in a world where the population has tripled over. The country is getting increasingly irrelevant globally. That's not a problem in itself, irrelevance can be good.

Regionally the picture is starker. While London is maintaining its global city status, the regions are falling further behind. Scotland in 1950 had 5.1 million, by 2020 that had barely increased to 5.5 million (half of that increase happened the last 10 years). At least the population isn't falling like in Japan (with twice the population of the UK on half again the area).

I still think you are being very odd. Once Gt Britain's population decades ago was 48,000,000 now at over 66,000,000. Experts have stated that before too long the London area will eventually think of a seven figure number of newer houses around the London area.As if 66 million was not getting too high from you it is forecast at going over 70 and continue through this century. We are an island and how the goodness can we keep having these massive growths and by tne do the century a ridiculous total. You are not being balanced o sensible at all and where they are all going to live is ridiculous. Why ignore big numbers on this not very big island for heaven's sake?!  :mad:

Perhaps you should emulate North Korea? The Hermit Kingdom doesn't have an immigration problem... :)

You are already trying to copy North Korea over the pond..........

Please explain what you mean, RJ... You know: like give examples, rather than derogatory epithets. I'll wait...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=il-22Q8mECc

Are those Fox News images true? Unbelievable.
I had already heard that Fox channel was tendentious but never imagined it to be like this.

The North Korean lady is an artist, she has a sense of operatic staging that is not common to watch in the western tv.

jax, I'd never thought you'd need to be reminded that the Daily Show is a "comedy" program...
As Google tells it:

Trevor Noah takes on the very tall task of replacing longtime host Jon Stewart on Comedy Central's Emmy- and Peabody Award-winning talk/news satire program. Noah joined "The Daily Show" in 2014 as a contributor, two years after making his U.S. television debut on "The Tonight Show With Jay Leno." The native of South Africa -- born to a black South African mother and a white European father -- has been lauded for his unique, insightful take on current events and ability to sell out international comedy shows. It's also helpful that he is, in the words of his Comedy Central boss, "wickedly funny."

If you meant to imply that RJ got his ideas from YouTube or Comedy Central, you should have said that, no?
Otherwise, it's on you! And I'm disappointed.

@Belfrager: What? You mean to say you don't watch American TV? :) Shame on you!

(I don't watch it much, either.)

jax, I'd never thought you'd need to be reminded that the Daily Show is a "comedy" program...

But in this case it was mere juxtaposition of the North Korean TV and Fox News, no input from the hosts of the Daily Show at all. Makes for an excellent satire. And handily reveals who has thick blindfolds on.

Well OakdaleFTL your country has been trying to tighten up folk coming in and I don't think the fence on the Mexican border just for show!

Makes for an excellent satire? Perhaps. (My current computer doesn't do sound, so I wouldn't know.) But let me, then, remind you that Hitler was a vegetarian!

The NorKs, like most communist countries, build walls to keep its people in...as well as others out, RJ.
What I asked was what similarities you saw between the United States and North Korea. I'm still waiting....

(My current computer doesn't do sound, so I wouldn't know.)

This is a good one! Good comedy, I mean.

What I asked was what similarities you saw between the United States and North Korea. I'm still waiting....

The similarity is between Fox News and North Korean TV. It should have been evident even without sound.

I disagree with the premise. I'm not a third-generation German or Frenchman contributing to making Dutch people a minority. I'm just Dutch, as is my father, and I'd probably find it somewhat insulting if you insisted my grandmother wasn't Dutch even though she didn't acquire the nationality at birth. It's possible that you'd have to add an extra generation or two for non-Western immigrants who don't marry a Dutch partner, but the basic principle is the same. This Syrian teen I tutored a bit a few years ago, he's practically Dutch/Belgian already. If he'll ever have any children, they'll be Dutch/Belgian with "foreign" aunts, uncles & grandparents, meaning they speak accented or broken Dutch and they'll have some slightly different customs. They wouldn't be unlike my dad.

But even if we take the premise at face value and assume that by 2150 "us" Europeans technically become a minority (i.e., less than 50 %), we'd still be the biggest and most powerful minority. Not a minority group in a disadvantaged sense.

There are so many variables in those migration and minority issues. To take the last point first, Estonians mostly don't (and shouldn't) regard Russians in Estonia as a minority. Those Russians are a significant and powerful minority, the fifth column of Russia, which happens to be a huge empire next door to us.

There are countries and there are empires.^[1] Or, less provokingly, large countries and smaller countries. Smaller countries, if they are smart, understand the threat that a bigger neighbour poses, and learn to prepare for it or live with it. Preparation includes being conscious of the fifth column.

Then there are peoples, ethnicities, and populations. People of some country are more capable of assimilating immigrants than people of some other country. Large countries tend to have more of this capacity, while smaller countries with smaller population will certainly have difficulties absorbing the population of bigger countries.

There are also prestige countries where immigrants of whatever origin and in astonishing numbers are happily ready to blend in. The prestige status applies to entire Western Europe. It doesn't apply to most countries between Russia and Western Europe.

For several reasons, including fragile numbers and fragile prestige of Estonian ethnicity, Estonians and Russians never mixed well. Russians have their own Moscow that will always be their centre of sense of identity. If they look for foreign (non-Russian) prestigious culture to assimilate to, they find it in Western Europe and USA, not in Estonia.

Adding more minorities in this precarious situation would be self-destruction. Luckily Estonia is not in the path of African, Middle Eastern, and Asian refugees. If they happen to land here, they don't like it, and look for the first chance to jump off to Finland or more preferably to Sweden, Germany, France, or UK. There they can have there bustling and thriving ghettos. That's what they really seem to like, as like attracts like.

And don't tell me those ghettos don't occasionally pose a problem. They definitely do. However, in my opinion all countries with colonial past have invited this problem on themselves. In the context of EU, when the bigger/Western countries push Mid-Europe non-colonial countries to display the same "hospitality" for migrant ghettos as Western Europe does, it is just the same colonial attitude all over again.

Great Britain cannot just dashed well just keep having a growing population when one looks at the size of this island for goodness sake. The rise has been caused over decades by those coming in having larger families and we dish out more money in welfare, etc.

There are power balances in every community, ever-present, ever-shifting. Any external change, be it technological, demographic or economic, can upset the equilibrium at a sensitive time. But any sensitive equilibrium will shift eventually, hopefully to something more stable.

Migration was extra disrupting back when humanity was farmers and new arrivals meant more competition over the same limited resource, land. Now the machines have taken over the countryside, as was their birthright, leaving humans to inhabit the enclosures made specially for them.

Anyway, new migration (be it immigration or emigration) is always disruptive, it shifts the equilibrium, and that disruption in itself is a cost.  There is no guarantee that the new equilibrium will be "better". But we are a creative, adaptive, social species. Things can quickly get worse, but far more typical in history it gradually gets a little better, a little better, a little worse, a little better.

If there is no political advantage in reheating conflicts, they gradually resolve. A historically deadly conflict in Europe was Protestant v Catholic (and sometimes even more narrow). As a religious conflict it is largely resolved (except a handful strange men in obscure forums), as a cultural/identity conflict it still has some juice, but not to kill for. So what happens when someone outside wanders into a stuck conflict? Some hindus perhaps between catholics and protestants, or English-speakers between Russian-speakers and Estonian-speakers? More often than not they may defuse the situation, but they may also end up the scapegoat for whatever group that believes themselves to be in the ascendancy.

Ah! That's the jax I remember! A wise and calming (and erudite and educated) voice moderating the sometimes heated discussions among the only group of misfits on the web whose company I've (mostly :) ) enjoyed...
And one of the few who often starts interesting threads that frustrate the contentious nature of most of us! :)

Oh, there is a little bit of bait in there too.

...oh, yeah: I forgot to mention wit! :)

Things can quickly get worse, but far more typical in history it gradually gets a little better, a little better, a little worse, a little better.

A little better, a little better... until the final disgrace.

You are drifting jax so do be tempted to get a grip ! This wee country has tens of millions more than when I was born and will soon go over 70 damn million and NOT STOP there. We cannot keep having this nonsense and all the extra cost it involves. When the turn of the century passes 100 million this country will be for goodness sake be finished and be a hellhole and possibly violent.

[...] and possibly violent.

Since that's never happened before, perhaps you'all should hire and train an adequate police force! In the meantime, cheer yourself by reading Ehrlich's Population Bomb (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Population_Bomb)... :)

You gave me a laugh there Yankee man as competent police standard here but not where you live!

Meantime another single  day with 400 damn folk getting here. Hell is getting nearer all the time moving towards a 70 million population and as I said a hundred million by the end of this century. All hell coming is going to be inherent. I will offer my services as a voted in Dictator....... :irked:

You gave me a laugh there Yankee man as competent police standard here but not where you live!

Our Sheriffs Department (Stanislaus County) and municipal PD (Modesto) are rated two of the best in the country, boy-o!
The central valley is quite a different animal than the Bay Area, Sacramento and Los Angeles...

Well you are fortunate there OakdaleFTL so a lucky Yank! (well done!). A while ago I mentioned that a US police officials visited over here and in the Scottish part of the Kingdom went to the police training college and were most impressed by the place. Twice on tv I have seen a retired police captain from Philadelphia speak and he was very critical of many who get into the police in America.