Poll
Question:
Should Scotland be an independent country?
Option 1: Yes.
votes: 8
Option 2: No.
votes: 6
Should Scotland be an independent country?
This wording is taken directly from the official Scottish ballot that Mr. Howie and Luxor (and others?) will be casting their vote for in a few months time. I am aware that this topic has been touched on in the "What's going on in the UK?" thread, but I feel as though it is such a large and important issue that it is deserving of it's own thread.
Additionally, (and apologies to the afore-mentioned posters) one small difference in this vote is that we posters of the DnD Sanctuary, of all nationalities, will be casting our votes here.
If you vote yes, please post why; if you vote no, please post why. If you wish to abstain from voting, please post "I abstain from the vote and hereby recuse myself". There will be no beer option in this important vote (sacrilegious, I know, but fourscore and seven years from now, you'll get over it.) If possible, @Frenzie or @Macallan, could a poll be added? (Thanks regardless)
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ujvOWWfpY[/video]
VS
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vkYiCdn834[/video]
I vote for devolution because the world needs at least one more ambassador in the United Nations.
If such appointments were subject to a vote and Americans could vote, I'd cast my ballot for rjhowie.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi1217.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fdd389%2FJaybro37%2FPics%2Frjhowie.jpg&hash=123251c14a5c764bd927d10907dd3476" rel="cached" data-hash="123251c14a5c764bd927d10907dd3476" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i1217.photobucket.com/albums/dd389/Jaybro37/Pics/rjhowie.jpg)
in a few months time
:sherlock:
"In a few months' time".
I added a poll.
What was the point?
We have two and half Scots, whose "votes" are already well known.
Who should vote here then - or ok, except for the 2 & half Scots?
Who should vote here then - or ok, except for the 2 & half Scots?
As we Scots are members of the DnD Sanctuary that makes us eligible to vote. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/scotland.gif) Reasons already given elsewhere.
3+, 0-. Where's the Glasgow man?
Sure, new partners for the Nordic Council (http://www.norden.org/en/nordic-council/international-co-operation).
As we Scots are members of the DnD Sanctuary that makes us eligible to vote.
Scots get to vote twice.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bdonline.co.uk%2Fpictures%2F300xAny%2F0%2F0%2F1%2F1693001_alex%2520salmond.jpg&hash=a7f53fc12c2c91b13d45f358bf9adc5b" rel="cached" data-hash="a7f53fc12c2c91b13d45f358bf9adc5b" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.bdonline.co.uk/pictures/300xAny/0/0/1/1693001_alex%20salmond.jpg)
On the other hand, I think it would be great if Scotland became the 51st state.
New question. Who should become the new state's first governor?
Alex Salmond to replace the Queen on new Scottish pound coin (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/scottish-politics/10735711/Alex-Salmond-to-replace-the-Queen-on-new-Scottish-pound-coin.html)
Other innovations are in the pipeline:
Scotland to switch to driving on the right if independence given green light (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/01/scotland-driving-on-right-independence-road-scheme)
I have to give them credit, this is probably the best idea attributed to the SNP.
Other innovations are in the pipeline:
Scotland to switch to driving on the right if independence given green light (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/01/scotland-driving-on-right-independence-road-scheme)
At least that was an obvious April Fool attempt.
The muppet that is Andy Burnham, the shadow health secretary said it would happen just a few weeks ago.
Mr Burnham told Holyrood Magazine: “I would feel really genuinely sad if Scotland votes for independence, not just for our own self-interest and in the extra difficulty we would face getting a Labour government in England but I also don’t want to drive up the M6 and get my passport out or have to drive on the right when I want to drive on the left
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/FacePalm2.gif)
I cannot stand that mawkish song 'Flower of Scotland' and have never sung it or be at an event that does so. It appeals to the pathetic emotionals here.
There is also a very disquieting and insidious undercurrent happening here. Any time some well known person says on Twitter or similar that he is a Unionist man and voting 'NO' he gets arouse from Nationalist morons. It is becoming a semi-regular happening and the SNP does little to stop it. So jimbro would want 2 votes? One to vote for me and the other for the 51st State? The Michigan mess is enough to put anyone off that one! A bit up in the air as it is Scotland we are on about not Ireland. Can I correct him on a glaring mistake right from the start and which will maybe help him.
Scotland HAS Devolution for a number of years now hence the parliament in Edinburgh. That is devolution dear man.
Thanks for the addition of the poll, @Frenzie! :cheers:
@Josh: No one is making you take part in this thread if you are going to be rude. I'm sure there will be plenty of grammar nazi'ing for you in other threads. May Putin forever rule your country!
@Mr. Howie: Hey old man, I need you to vote. I too voted for Scotland to remain part of the UK, and here is why; since 1707, it appears to me that the union b/w England, Wales, N. Ireland, and Scotland has worked well. If it isn't broke, why try to fix it? Scotland has a great deal of sovereignty already, as a part of the UK. I see no reason why Scotland should risk a total collapse of their economy. If Scotland were being subjugated by Whitehall, I'd completely understand this, but as the Scottish Parliament has a great deal of say in most of Scotland's affairs, I say Scotland should stay in the Union.
Cute lil ditty.......
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPaJhlIIYjM[/VIDEO]
The tune is catchy.
BTW......... who was this Edward dude.....was he another random shot load of errant semen splattered about the feet of some crodiggity old crust (http://i.imgur.com/5zU7FMW.jpg)for the flies to re-deposit northward as prerequisite of royal birth?
Was he someone important, or just another nasally deprived, big eared rapscallion (http://i.imgur.com/5cH147s.jpg)?
I vote independence! Yes, the [glow=black,2,300]
"The Friendly Republic of Better Scotland" (http://i.imgur.com/NAQYW4s.jpg)[/glow]
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FB6k66g6.jpg&hash=1c39f22902142da1a9f41354f80cc0d9" rel="cached" data-hash="1c39f22902142da1a9f41354f80cc0d9" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/B6k66g6.jpg)
I can't bring myself to care, one way or the other.
They should vote & flee Britain , for everything there's going down the shitter.
[glow=black,2,300]
Britain's benefits ghettos:[/glow]
Report reveals growing number of estates where HALF those of working age are dependent on handouts ◆ One in every five British children now grows up in a workless household
◆ Government spends more than one in every three pounds on welfare
◆ Authors of Signed Off, Written Off study say figures are 'national disgrace'
Britain is rife with welfare ghettos where more than half the working age population is dependent on unemployment benefits, a think-tank claims.
As many as 6.8million people and 1.8million children have been trapped into long-term poverty, the Centre for Social Justice says in a report.
It would mean nearly one in five children are growing up in a workless household – the second highest in Europe after Macedonia where it is nearly one in four.
The study by the CSJ – founded by Iain Duncan Smith before he became Work and Pensions Secretary – said parts of Denbighshire in Wales were among the worst affected areas.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F05%2F20%2Farticle-2327033-19E187BA000005DC-183_634x322.jpg&hash=a52064c85c344e43a2c22d12c890d543" rel="cached" data-hash="a52064c85c344e43a2c22d12c890d543" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/20/article-2327033-19E187BA000005DC-183_634x322.jpg)
............... continued
It's only a short matter of time ........... Socialism will always fail when they run out of other people's money, look at Spain, Greece, Portugal, France, .......etc .... etc .... etc ..... etc...............................
When the welfare money dries up there will be violent bloodshed perpetrated by those that demand their
'free ride funding' be reinstated.
Eventually it will envelope all of Europe because their social economies are so entwined, when one falls, so to will the next, & then the next!
Ultimately, the dependent throngs will have nowhere to emigrate to, having like swarms of locust, devastating & making barren all in their wake until it's all gone.
There is also a very disquieting and insidious undercurrent happening here. Any time some well known person says on Twitter or similar that he is a Unionist man and voting 'NO' he gets arouse from Nationalist morons.
It's exactly the same the other way around. If someone says they are voting yes, they get abuse from the unionist morons.
There's morons on both sides of the argument so don't give just one side of it. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/nono.gif)
Of course you only get to hear one side of the story though, thanks to the unionist mainstream media. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
BTW......... who was this Edward dude.
Edward II of England (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_II) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Link.gif)
Edward dude
Ha!
Edward Dudor:yes:
:D
Edward dude
Ha! Edward Dudor:yes:
:D
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)
They should vote & flee Britain , for everything there's going down the shitter.
[glow=black,2,300]Britain's benefits ghettos:[/glow] Report reveals growing number of estates where HALF those of working age are dependent on handouts
◆ One in every five British children now grows up in a workless household
◆ Government spends more than one in every three pounds on welfare
◆ Authors of Signed Off, Written Off study say figures are 'national disgrace'
Britain is rife with welfare ghettos where more than half the working age population is dependent on unemployment benefits, a think-tank claims.
As many as 6.8million people and 1.8million children have been trapped into long-term poverty, the Centre for Social Justice says in a report.
It would mean nearly one in five children are growing up in a workless household – the second highest in Europe after Macedonia where it is nearly one in four.
The study by the CSJ – founded by Iain Duncan Smith before he became Work and Pensions Secretary – said parts of Denbighshire in Wales were among the worst affected areas.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2013%2F05%2F20%2Farticle-2327033-19E187BA000005DC-183_634x322.jpg&hash=a52064c85c344e43a2c22d12c890d543" rel="cached" data-hash="a52064c85c344e43a2c22d12c890d543" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/05/20/article-2327033-19E187BA000005DC-183_634x322.jpg)
............... continued
It's only a short matter of time ........... Socialism will always fail when they run out of other people's money, look at Spain, Greece, Portugal, France, .......etc .... etc .... etc ..... etc...............................
When the welfare money dries up there will be violent bloodshed perpetrated by those that demand their 'free ride funding' be reinstated.
Eventually it will envelope all of Europe because their social economies are so entwined, when one falls, so to will the next, & then the next!
Ultimately, the dependent throngs will have nowhere to emigrate to, having like swarms of locust, devastating & making barren all in their wake until it's all gone.
Obviously I have no way of knowing if you know or not, but you are aware that the DM is viewed in the same lens as we view the grocery store rumor mags that women buy? :sherlock:
I must say you must have put in your comment after coming home from school (hope not a Primary). Because I stated Nationalists have gone berserk on social media sites you come instantly out with a would-be automatic stance as if everyone is at it.
Time after time we have had legions of the Jacobite scoundrels going ape on these sites. Far too many which you are not prepared to condemn. They have also targeted well known people who came out in support of the Union. The constant language and viciousness is unbelievable. And if you are in business heaven help you for having a Unionist opinion. I was born a Unionist and my family and friends are such too. My ancestors were Scots Covenanters and there is a family obilisk to commemorate the Howie family. My father, brothers and relations served in HM Forces andproud to do so. A survey on opinions of troops returning from the Afghanistan fiasco has found the vast majority want to be in the British Army not some local "Defence Force." The Union of Crowns led in turn to the Union of parliaments and could not have been at a more imprtant time as Scotland was more or less bankrupt.
The SNP plays on emotions and even if it rains it is Unionism's fault. Talk about being a daft lot. Every time the SNP is caught out they waffle then scoff instead of being capable of dealing with questions. Now we get bombarded with wonderful Norway. it used to be Ireland until it went belly up. How anyone thinks you can surmount centuries of yor own tradition and way of life by putting another country's in to replace it is plain stupid. That Nordic place is expensive and the rate of tax something else.
Right from the start of the Union, Scots got a chance to play a part and as the BE Empire grew lists of Scots took up administering it. I voted against a local parliament and when you watch it on television the only saving grace is that the N. Ireland Assembly is worse. It is a fact of life and when the Referendum is held and Salmond gets the hankies out we will no doubt see more powers to Edinburgh. If that is the thing then so be it. Colonel Rebel is right about the Union and save me from the Flower of Scotland mentality. Salmond wants to share the pound and also open the country to even more immigration. That along with other things he wants to keep shows he wants his cake and eat it.
Things are not broken no matter what tripe Salmond and his tartan nuts yaks about Scotland is an important part of the Kingdom and must remain so.
:knight:
I must say you must have put in your comment after coming home from school (hope not a Primary).
I will hazard a guess that comment was directed at me as you failed to indicate just who it's directed at. I'll resist the urge to say something about the "Primary school" comment. I'd like to think I'm above such juvenile stuff. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
Because I stated Nationalists have gone berserk on social media sites you come instantly out with a would-be automatic stance as if everyone is at it.
Tell me where did I say that everyone is at it? Please point it out to me...Oh wait you can't because that's not what I said. I'll thank you not to put words in my mouth.
Time after time we have had legions of the Jacobite scoundrels going ape on these sites
Jacobites! Oh deary, deary me. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/FacePalm2.gif)
Far too many which you are not prepared to condemn.
Really? Try reading what I wrote one more time, There's morons on both sides and I condemn them both. It's you who seem to be in denial.
They have also targeted well known people who came out in support of the Union.
Bitter together supporters who have made death threats to well known people who have came out in support independence. Or are they fair game in your view?
I was born a Unionist and my family and friends are such too.
Bully for you and them. Personally I couldn't care less if you are a Unionist or not. I don't do prejudice. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/nono.gif)
My father, brothers and relations served in HM Forces andproud to do so.
So? That doesn't make you special. My Father, relations and a good few friends all served in HM forces too, not that it has anything to do with things whatsoever.
The SNP plays on emotions and even if it rains it is Unionism's fault.
Don't know about you but I'm not voting for the SNP. I'm voting for independence and if you think a vote for independence is a vote for the SNP you are a very confused individual.
Things are not broken no matter what tripe Salmond and his tartan nuts yaks about Scotland
You should try taking off those rose-tinted glasses you seem to be wearing, that will let you see clearer the world around you.
I have totally opposite views to yours (which is fine by me). But in your eyes I must be one of those nasty cybernats...
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oD-q5h3b7gc[/video]
Ph you really do fancy yourself boy! I can send you a hankie (tartan of course). Do hope you are enjoying your break from schoolfor the easter holiday!
The diatribes by Nats on the net long outnumber the No people. Salmod and his ever loving deputy are always very wordy so you are keeping well in the Nat fold on that. Much of the campaign you support is on guesswork, hopes and dreams. It is also a damn great jump in the dark. The dreamers and Jacobite mentality is well to the fore but you haven't matured enough yet for it to sink in. The parade in Edinburgh was hardly earth moving although they tried to claim twice as many as actually stated by the authorities. Salmond did well in the last Scottish Parliament Elections because of the previous administration but where were all the MP's?? Still only a handful.
I know only too well that there are people who believe strongly in a separate country but I am jst as strongly against and that is a fact of life. Apart from the hardcore many who voted the SNP in last time in Edinburgh did so as a handy protest vote. hence th lack of representation from the SNP at national level. I have had a long political history myself as it happens so have a particular interest and determination to keep Scotland where it presently is.
Ph you really do fancy yourself boy!
Yes I do, so nice of you to notice. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
Do hope you are enjoying your break from schoolfor the easter holiday!
That's a terrible fixation with school you seem to have, you want to see about that. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/worriedsmiley.gif)
Thank God we don't have that excessive number of Irish here. It'd be blood. :no: :ninja: :yikes:
Lucky you Josh.
You hiding the school matter Luxor - uh? Good attempt at an adult subtly. Typical of youth who are usually radical and think they can set the world right. When you see them decades later they get embarrassed when you remind them of youth.
Can I vote? :)
Be men. Get rid of English queens, get yourself a decent King and attack Germany by the NorthWest.
I'll attack by the SouthWest, so they have no place to escape except to run away to where they come from, far than Russia.
You hiding the school matter Luxor - uh?
Nothing to hide unfortunately for you. Sorry to disappoint you, but the feeling will pass and you'll get over it.
Be men. Get rid of English queens,
Get rid of all royalty and you'll have my vote. May I suggest the French way of getting rid of them. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
Be men. Get rid of English queens,
Get rid of all royalty and you'll have my vote. May I suggest the French way of getting rid of them. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
QUEEN Definition / QUEEN Means
The definition of QUEEN is "Flamboyant homosexual"
Do you mean "quean"?
“Scottish independence will bring Voldemort back” claims Lord Robertson (http://eveningharold.com/2014/04/08/scottish-independence-will-bring-voldemort-back-claims-lord-robertson/)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ftheeveningharold.files.wordpress.com%2F2014%2F04%2Fpg2_wb_voldemort_600.jpg&hash=0506662d6c2d3194cbb8e889bb026df5" rel="cached" data-hash="0506662d6c2d3194cbb8e889bb026df5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://theeveningharold.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/pg2_wb_voldemort_600.jpg)
In a truly apocalyptic speech given in the United States former defence secretary and Nato chief Lord Robertson claimed that Voldemort would rise again if Scotland becomes independent. Citing “forces of darkness” and “cataclysmic” effects Lord Robertson warned that life as we know it would end if the union between England and Scotland is rent asunder.
“It will be Hell!” he roared at a stunned audience. “Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes, volcanoes! The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together…mass hysteria!”
I doubt very much that Scotland exists.
Besides vague rumors of monsters in lakes and, so it seems, men wearing skirts, never saw any real proof that the place wasn't totally imaginary.
I don't believe that whisky comes from there.
I doubt very much that Scotland exists.
Then doubt no more. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/scotland.gif)
Besides vague rumors of monsters in lakes
Yeah! That's a load of nonsense that one. Brings in the tourists though. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Grinning.gif)
and, so it seems, men wearing skirts,
I've only ever seen them at weddings, not mine though I hasten to add. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/nono.gif)
I don't believe that whisky comes from there.
I could go on a fact finding tour (if you would care to fund it) and visit a few distilleries if you like, just to prove it is from here. I would derive no pleasure from it at all of course. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Cheers2.gif)
Now how is that for a revelation - I would get luxor's vote if I did away with Royalty?! Ha ha. The SNP leader years ago was a left wing Socialist firebrand but he is canny enough now to try and not disrupt things too much on the Monarchy. No doubt if we still had a Stuart line there would be a different take on this one. Anyway as well illustrated the Monarch has connections both north and south and isn't going anywhere. When that mother, Salmod gets an 80% rating come back on that one!
The onl person worse than Salmond is that female No 2 who always look up at him like watching a film star. We do not always get the answers from the man and for example on currency he simply dismisses the nehative as if it was fiction. Having been told both by the parties in the Coaltion UK government and th opposition he isn't getting co-operation he has noo plan B. Of course you could have an independent Scotland like scores all over the world buyt it doesn't automatically mean they are all fine. Trying to hit us with Norway now is yet another non-starter. One simply cannot fuse another nation's style and tradition to someone else's. He used to go all out to show how Ireland was a tiger but doesn';t now he just moves to something else in lieu of sense.
There will be another pro-Union parade and rally this year and will as before dwarf the stealers of our Saltire Edinburgh bash! :yes: :happy:
By the way Belfrager. On that Loch Ness monster I fear that jimbro has something to do with that hoary tale. It is a roundabout sneaky kick and wouldn't be surprised it a US sub is the cause.
Now how is that for a revelation - I would get luxor's vote if I did away with Royalty?
No you wouldn't get it, that would be a wasted vote. Only people of sound mind need apply. :P
Cop out if ever there was one. As for those of a sound mind don't look in the mirror and get let down. Nah, maybe you should get used to getting let down before September is reached.
Anyway for the grown-ups, Salmond will toady to anyone as will his camp follower, Sturgeon. He toadied in with Cardinal O'Brien for RC votes but got spoiled a bit when that prince man got caught trying to seduce young priests. Haha, very funny. Salmond also scoffs and rubbishes Conservatives which shows a combination of stupidity or ignorance as 400,000 for for them. She is now trying to undercut the No organisation by saying that it would help Labour to be in an independent Scotland. She actually has enough grey cells to know that things are not going to be that easy for her and her trartan emotionals. No alternative currency, no automatic entry to the EEC, declining oil revenue, caught out in 2013 with wrong educational figures (Salmond and his Educ minister had to go back to parliament and apologise), Orkney & Shetland muttering about a referendum to leave Scotland if independence arrived. It is all about slogans - anyone remember "Scotland Free in '83"?? Slogans and superficial statements with little to back their waffle to anything deep. When in a corner the SNP gets nippy and sneering and Westminster at fault if it snows!
There have always been a body of people in this northern part of the Kingdom (how they have changed on that one too!) where emotional stuff is gurgled out to daft Scots. Indeed there was a airing of their view that they could perhaps do well in lower working class areas. In practice that is an admission they think people in that strat are easy to fool. Unfortunately that is also the group who vote less than others. This would-be variation of the Jacobite lot need to be shoved in a corner this September. They lost in 1715 and again in 1745 because more Scots were agin 'em than for them. Right across the country after the last local elections even in Councils where the SNP were marginally with the most councillors they got niggled when various combinations of Labour, Conservative, LibDem had coalitions to keep them out.
It was one thing getting the Edinburgh Parliament majority in MEP's but how come there is no parallel with MPS?? It is handy for a flight of fancy on an issue or a protest vote but when the hard stuff comes they are nowhere.
Cop out if ever there was one. As for those of a sound mind don't look in the mirror and get let down. Nah, maybe you should get used to getting let down before September is reached.
If the people of Scotland vote no, then I will be disappointed of course and there's nothing wrong with that. But I will accept the loss and get on with my life. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shrugs.gif)
I can only dread to imagine how you and your ilk will deal with defeat if it goes the other way. Such is the hatred of the SNP that emanates from you all. Too thick to understand this is a referendum and not an election. Voting yes is not a vote for the SNP you dummies. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/idiot.gif)
Let's model possible scenarios, huh?;)
1. Libya. Scotland goes wild, field commanders from different factions - and simply just "robinhoods" - roam the shires from Ayr to Aberdeen and beyond! NATO sends heavy bombers to restore the No-Fly-Zone in order! Plunder! Hunger! Desolation of Smaug.
Scotland goes wild,
Not much chance of that Josh. Maybe in one certain city on the west coast, but it can be like a war zone there at the best of times. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink2.gif)
...of that Josh.
Of THAT Josh?:yikes:
[O'k, take it easy, myself, that one's just joking...]
[O'k, take it easy, myself, that one's just joking...]
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/AOK.gif)
Oh dear Luxor you fail to see the thickness of your own corner. Salmond and his idolising deputy are going flat out as if it WAS an election. Anyway it IS more important than the routine as the whole future is involved. It is always amusing that those who credit themselves with being aloof brain wise so easily slip into the hat word so easily. I have to remind yet again that the majority of scurrilous and deplorable hate has been on the net from your lot of Brigadoons. You try to act as if you are all above board and scrupulously moral and the media shows something else. In trying to take some odd high ground you ignore the SNP leader who a couple of years ago aimed for the RC vote hence the cardinal becoming a pal. Now Sturgeon is after the labout vote in desperation. Facts dismiss your waffle.
You have your basic right of opinion as I have nine but don't give us this attempt at innocence. One just has to watch the way Salmond acts towards opposition politicians to show you are somewhat distant from reality. He sneers, bullies and is contemptuous. so if looking for thickos look closer to home! Personally, I have had a long local political involvement and stood in city elections so I don't need to act like a smug youth! Anyway if you are not concerned about a No vote shows something else and it will make things easier for you to get on with life! :lol:
.
You have your basic right of opinion as I have nine
So actually reading has its perks. Good to know.
I have to remind yet again that the majority of scurrilous and deplorable hate has been on the net from your lot of Brigadoons.
Aye it's always someone else isn't it. A big boy did it and ran away. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
Take of your blinkers, I've seen enough of the vile crap that the bitter together mob have been spouting. Nothing but threats and intimidation, acting like the Neanderthals they are.
you ignore the SNP leader who a couple of years ago aimed for the RC vote hence the cardinal becoming a pal.
What's wrong with going after the RC vote? Regardless of their political leanings, isn't it the job of any politician to get all people on their side?
Jeez you're unbelievable.
Personally, I have had a long local political involvement and stood in city elections
Apart from yourself, who really cares? (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shrugs.gif)
You obviously care although dishing out dross here. What is wrong with going after a religious vote? I can just imagine the uproar if someone went after the Protestant vote. He went after this corner because of it's long inherent links with Irish immigration here and a ground for getting an anti-British vote. So kind of see where you are coming fromon that one. Why not included them? Now Salmond his luvvy duvvy, Sturgeon are going after the Labour voterssaying how they have all the same value. For Heaven's sake how pathetic and desperate are your lot. Not satisfied with trying to get the Labour support (even though he goes after labour with a vengeance and showing hypocrisy) he rubbishes the Tories even though they have hundreds of thousands of votes. Talk about a joke.
Now let's inform all just on further truths - the 670 page "Scotland's Future" white paper.
Only 52,216 people asked for a copy which is 1.3% of the population.
It appears a mere 2.2% of households bothered with it.
Some 2,600 from England asked for a copy - 136 from Wales 108 from Ulster and 29 outside the UK!
Digitally they did better with 58,00 worlwide but that makes no difference to voters here.
So in essence the whole publication was a waste of time and money and the lack of interest tells us something very basic.
After continual pressure they admitted £800,000 was spent on it plus £60,000 on translations. However the SNP is still reluctant to give out info on newspaper and hoarding costs. The Nationalists accuse and sneer at any challenges to them as if the attackers are anti-Scots. It is an easy way to avoid the answers. Now a poll has said that the majority of Scots say that in a No vote the SNP would be better forgetting about trying to repeat their loss and work with others to have more powers for Edinburgh. On that basis the SNP would fall back on their base core vote and the protest part go home.
I remain a proud Scot but not an emotional joke. :yes:
You obviously care
Nope! Seriously I don't. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Whistle.gif)
although dishing out dross here.
Mr Pot I'd like to introduce you to Mr Kettle... (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shakehands.gif)
What is wrong with going after a religious vote? I can just imagine the uproar if someone went after the Protestant vote.
Why would there be an uproar? Protestant, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, etc, it shouldn't make the slightest difference. You must have issues if you think that's a problem. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/shakeheadno.gif)
I remain a proud Scot
Nothing wrong with that, I'm one too. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/scotland.gif)
but not an emotional joke
Yep! You could drop the emotional bit in that sentence right enough. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/laughing2.gif)
A Question to you two. There are many Scots living in the rest of the UK. They do not have a vote.
Why?
Is it any sort of issue in the election?
They're emigrants!:doh:
A Question to you two. There are many Scots living in the rest of the UK. They do not have a vote.
Why?
Well the obvious answer is you have to be living in Scotland and on the voting register in Scotland to be eligible to vote in Scotland and if your not then you don't get a vote.
I'm sure it goes deeper than that though. I do recall reading somewhere that it's in the Edinburgh agreement, so agreed by both sides. Can't back that up with a link though as I can't remember where I read it. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Blushing.gif)
Is it any sort of issue in the election?
It shouldn't be. If you or I were living in France we wouldn't get to vote in any UK referendum. My sister and her hubby live in London so don't qualify for a vote and they are OK with it. 2 yes votes less, but there you go. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/SadFace.gif)
The Ed agreement left the details to the government of Scotland, so it was the SNP's decision.
I don't see a justifiable reason. There's some sort of legal challenge going on, I understand.
The Ed agreement left the details to the government of Scotland, so it was the SNP's decision.
That's true, but both sides agreed to it before signing it.
I don't see a justifiable reason.
Well if you don't live in a country why should you get to vote on who rules them? Seems quite logical to me. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shrugs.gif)
There's some sort of legal challenge going on, I understand.
Read about that somewhere, can't see it going anywhere though. It would only make a few rich lawyers a bit richer anyway. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink.gif)
Just for giggles, I'd like to see Scotland become independent. If for no other reason than to see RJHowie go nuclear. It would be worth the price of admission to see that.
About the 51st State thing: By a very strange coincidence, that could happen. By an even stranger coincidence, it's Jimbro, our resident Michigander, who mentions the 51st State.
See, it's like this: There is a sentiment in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to secede from the Lower Peninsula and become a state in its own right. Many UP'ers don't think Lansing operates in their best interest, since many of the people in Lansing (Michigan's state capital for you out-of-towners) are Lower Peninsula residents. So, the U.P. would secede, form its own state government and try to get acceptance into the union as the 51st state. Now you know.
Jimbro is a resident of the Lower Peninsula, again for you out-of-towners who might not have looked up Grand Rapids to find out where in bloody thunder it is.
The Ed agreement left the details to the government of Scotland, so it was the SNP's decision.
That's true, but both sides agreed to it before signing it.
I don't see a justifiable reason.
Well if you don't live in a country why should you get to vote on who rules them? Seems quite logical to me. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shrugs.gif)
There's some sort of legal challenge going on, I understand.
Read about that somewhere, can't see it going anywhere though. It would only make a few rich lawyers a bit richer anyway. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink.gif)
As I mentioned before, It was agreed that the Scottish Government (aka the SNP) would define the detail, which, for those interested is explained here (http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/who-can-vote-referendum-scottish-independence). I don't know if the list is exhaustive.
I dislike the whole concept of disenfranchising nationals who are living abroad at the time of an election or referendum, having suffered that myself for over 30 years even though it was always my intention to return to the country of my birth. But that aside how can one possibly justify the barring of genuine Scottish nationals who are actually living in the same country (the UK) while allowing, for example, nationals of Ireland and the EU who are living in Scotland; people who have only a passing interest in Scotland or the UK. It beggars belief but I suppose is according to the same train of thought that lowered the voting age to gain some advantage to the SNP cause.
If I were voting in Scotland I would certainly not vote Yes, the SNP offers an empty plate towards mediocrity.
@mjm - it's not really a situation where giggling is appropriate.
@mjm - it's not really a situation where giggling is appropriate.
For a truth-- the only reason I can think in favor of it would be to watch RJH go nuclear the following morning. Otherwise: I have a suspicion that a "Yes" vote would be tragic for the nation as a whole. I wonder, if after all the patriotic fervor dies down, the SNP has an idea what it really takes to get a new nation on its feet.
The newly-minted United States was sort of clueless about these things back in the day too, but three thousand miles of ocean and the time it takes a sailing ship to cross it gave men time to think and figure out what had to be done. I don't know if Scotland has any such "advantage" at its disposal.
Just for giggles, I'd like to see Scotland become independent. If for no other reason than to see RJHowie go nuclear. It would be worth the price of admission to see that.
About the 51st State thing: By a very strange coincidence, that could happen. By an even stranger coincidence, it's Jimbro, our resident Michigander, who mentions the 51st State.
================================
See, it's like this: There is a sentiment in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to secede from the Lower Peninsula and become a state in its own right.
Jimbro is a resident of the Lower Peninsula, again for you out-of-towners who might not have looked up Grand Rapids to find out where in bloody thunder it is.
I think that they should become a separate country, loosely affiliated with Scotland.
For a larger view of secession, see
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2013/10/24/240497465/take-this-state-and-shove-it-the-new-secession-movement
As I mentioned before, It was agreed that the Scottish Government (aka the SNP) would define the detail, which, for those interested is explained here (http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/who-can-vote-referendum-scottish-independence). I don't know if the list is exhaustive.
Wish I could remember where I read the explanation string, been looking, but it means having to wade through all the bile that some folk seem to relish in posting. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Gonnabesick.gif) So I've given up. From memory (not the most dependable in the best of circumstances) it's something to do with the devolution referendum and the precedent was set then on who can or cannot take part in Scottish elections. Best I can give you I'm afraid, unless I'm lucky enough to stumble upon it unintentionally. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Yes.gif)
But that aside how can one possibly justify the barring of genuine Scottish nationals who are actually living in the same country (the UK) while allowing, for example, nationals of Ireland and the EU who are living in Scotland;
If they feel strongly about it they can always come and live here. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/CheezyGrin.gif)I don't see it as a problem myself, if I didn't live here I wouldn't expect to be able to vote. We could be having a referendum here on whether or not to stay in Europe, we can't expect people living in the rest of Europe to be given a vote in that referendum.
I suppose is according to the same train of thought that lowered the voting age to gain some advantage to the SNP cause.
In fairness in you are an adult at 16 in Scotland, so they should have a vote in all elections. It is their future more than most, so that's fair. Besides all the parties are for it.
If I were voting in Scotland I would certainly not vote Yes
Which would be your right. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Yes.gif)
the SNP offers an empty plate towards mediocrity
Mediocrity or Tories in westminster....(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/thinking.gif) tough choice.
I wonder, if after all the patriotic fervor dies down, the SNP has an idea what it really takes to get a new nation on its feet.
A
'New' Nation? ........................ What size of a Nation are we talking about?
It's
smaller in size (sq.miles) than South Carolina,
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F8e%2FSouth_Carolina_in_United_States.svg%2F1181px-South_Carolina_in_United_States.svg.png&hash=3af966f4e7a5c0b6125f6fdcf9c7caca" rel="cached" data-hash="3af966f4e7a5c0b6125f6fdcf9c7caca" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8e/South_Carolina_in_United_States.svg/1181px-South_Carolina_in_United_States.svg.png)
& with
only about
5.3 million people it's just as populated as Colorado.
The task of running this
'new' Nation wouldn't be all that difficult........
Scotland is
basically a functional, self-governed entity already ..... IIRC.
IMHO .... Not too much of a step up really.
If nothing else, less red tape & much fewer levels of regulation to deal with I would think.
Currency, on the other hand, might need a bit of restructuring. Scotland produces it's own bank notes, but will they still be accepted as
unofficial legal tender as they are today in
almost all of Britain?.....I would have to think probably not.
Luxor comes out with this guff that I am in an uproar because it suits him to bodyswerve the obvious. The printing of that white book was a damn waste of time. The lack of respnse to it is prlific. Salond picks the parts of cociety he wants to cultivate. Not just the old RC working class vote (and I have explaind why rather than he admit it) but the Pakistanis in south Glasgow who even did a fundraiser for him one year! So a neat cover up fon which groups in society to go after for devious reasons. Now they throw in as I pointed out a move on Labourites. In many areas the Nationalist are not as great in support and they know it. They also have only 6 MP's our of the 59 in Scotland which tells you something of the protest vote at Edinburgh levels. Surprisingly enough for Luxor who like Salmond tries to goad the Tory side they get around 400,000 votes in Scotland although more spread out.
The SNP for all their going wild do not always match up to the bawling and shouting. I receall the big slogan "Free in '83." Damp squid. Then in 2013 beacuse there was a small split in the Labour controlled Glasgow they were going cock-a- hoop they would sweep the city.They didn't. Across Scotland I also stated councils formed coalitions to keep them out! Six MP's out of 59?! Most if it is some long emotional thingy and the SNP tends to lean on a subtle strategy that you have to be of their camp to be true Scots. When that began to bite back in the media then they quietly tried to distance from it. However that undercurrent is still there. If you are a Scots Labour LibDem, Toru you are almost to be pitied by a mob who think the saltires is now especially theirs! Oh, I enjoy the to and fro where as the dismal Jimmy here takes himself too seriously. The day after the Referendum I will lift a toast to him in generosity so work that one out folks! :devil: :lol:
ps. Spot on mjsmsprt40. Butler send a case of Irn Bru to the Chicago man.
Can I say SmileFaze there are at present Scottish banknotes issued by the Royal Nak of Scotland, Bank of Scotland and the Clydesdale but they are all in tune with the UK currency. An independent Scotland will not be part of the British currency situation although the nationalists want it so and the Bank of england which would control their economy! It is all about cake and eat it stuff. You are either separate or not and shows a fundemental flaw in the thinking!
ps. Spot on mjsmsprt40. Butler send a case of Irn Bru to the Chicago man.
I have heard of a case of smallpox and I have heard of a case of syphilis and I have heard of a case of acne.
But Irn Bru? is it contagious?
I have heard of a case of smallpox and I have heard of a case of syphilis and I have heard of a case of acne.
But Irn Bru? is it contagious?
You, good Aussie, are a case.
ps. Spot on mjsmsprt40. Butler send a case of Irn Bru to the Chicago man.
I have heard of a case of smallpox and I have heard of a case of syphilis and I have heard of a case of acne.
But Irn Bru? is it contagious?
It might be if you're into soft drinks. I confess that I used to drink way too much Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola, these days I stay away from it like the plague. I don't know about Irn Bru, never tried it because it's not readily available here. A case of it might sit awhile, or it might disappear-- can't tell until I do try it.
Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola
Coca Cola it's good for curing hangovers. Pepsi not so.
For some reason Pepsi disappeared from the market here.
As for Scotland they have good products for creating hangovers but only if you mix. Don't, and you'll be safe.
Luxor comes out with this guff that I am in an uproar because it suits him to bodyswerve the obvious.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/yawn.gif)
I don't think his are smilies. I guess he uses a web-camera for self-portraying actual emotions.
ps. Spot on mjsmsprt40. Butler send a case of Irn Bru to the Chicago man.
I have heard of a case of smallpox and I have heard of a case of syphilis and I have heard of a case of acne.
But Irn Bru? is it contagious?
It might be if you're into soft drinks. I confess that I used to drink way too much Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola, these days I stay away from it like the plague. I don't know about Irn Bru, never tried it because it's not readily available here. A case of it might sit awhile, or it might disappear-- can't tell until I do try it.
Can confirm that regular Irn Bru is ok, but will give you diabetes if one drinks them regularly (or at least that was my impression after trying one).
Diet Irn Bru kind of reminded me of Coke Zero, without the Coke taste of course. Kind of "meh".
I don't drink much really in soft drinks since being diagnosed Diabetic 10 years ago (thankfully only class 2). When I do have Irn Bru always have the sugarless version. As for Coke very rarely drink it but pref Pepsi (die of course). For thos trying to sober up from too much Scotch I would recommend watching Alex Salmond trying to be nice and thoughtful. ::)
This may or may not belong in this thread, depending on your point of view, but in a way I think one should see that it is somehow related.
[glow=blue,2,300]
Britain used to be a club with four members, now it has only one - England.[/glow]
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcCxrfyR.jpg&hash=d74fbc9e63c8fa30394f3fac7e061bd2" rel="cached" data-hash="d74fbc9e63c8fa30394f3fac7e061bd2" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/cCxrfyR.jpg)
Ask a Scotsman his nationality and he will say "Scottish", ask a Welshman and he will say "Welsh" - only an Englishman might say "British".
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Union between England, Scotland and Wales is coming to an end. The English need to stop viewing Scotland and Wales as their children; not yet fully grown and in need of our guidance, protection and large sums of pocket money.
Scotland and Wales are adults now, they have their own identity and are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves (but after they leave home we are not taking them back).
Personally, I will still stand on Remembrance Day in a minutes silence for all the brave Scottish, Welsh and Irish soldiers who are far better than me and laid down their lives to protect this island. But I also think it's time for us to part as friends.
The vote on Scottish independence is coming soon. I think we already know the result. Soon after that will be Wales.
So what does this all mean for St. George's Day?
The English have been programmed to think of themselves as British, encouraged to suppress their 'Englishness'. But after Scottish independence 'British' will cease to exist, and people in England will ask themselves "If I'm not British, what am I?"
Will being British
finally be a thing of the past?
Are the Scots drawing first blood, or are they putting the final nail in the coffin?
What do you think?
This may or may not belong in this thread, depending on your point of view, but in a way I think one should see that it is somehow related.
[glow=blue,2,300]Britain used to be a club with four members, now it has only one - England.[/glow]
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcCxrfyR.jpg&hash=d74fbc9e63c8fa30394f3fac7e061bd2" rel="cached" data-hash="d74fbc9e63c8fa30394f3fac7e061bd2" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/cCxrfyR.jpg)
Ask a Scotsman his nationality and he will say "Scottish", ask a Welshman and he will say "Welsh" - only an Englishman might say "British".
It's becoming increasingly clear that the Union between England, Scotland and Wales is coming to an end. The English need to stop viewing Scotland and Wales as their children; not yet fully grown and in need of our guidance, protection and large sums of pocket money.
Scotland and Wales are adults now, they have their own identity and are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves (but after they leave home we are not taking them back).
Personally, I will still stand on Remembrance Day in a minutes silence for all the brave Scottish, Welsh and Irish soldiers who are far better than me and laid down their lives to protect this island. But I also think it's time for us to part as friends.
The vote on Scottish independence is coming soon. I think we already know the result. Soon after that will be Wales.
So what does this all mean for St. George's Day?
The English have been programmed to think of themselves as British, encouraged to suppress their 'Englishness'. But after Scottish independence 'British' will cease to exist, and people in England will ask themselves "If I'm not British, what am I?"
Will being British finally be a thing of the past?
Are the Scots drawing first blood, or are they putting the final nail in the coffin?
What do you think?
I still do not think that Scotland will actually vote to leave their current union. They are more than capable of doing so, mind you, but I don't think they'll vote to leave.
N. Ireland will be the first to leave, methinks, and I really don't see that happening for another 10-25 years.
Of course, the the same arguments Scotland is using could be used by various US states as a reason to leave our current (forced) Union.
California, Texas, Florida, Washington state, New York state, and Massachusetts all could probably stand on their own two feet if they parted ways with the US federal gov't.
For the record, although I am currently not in favor of any secession in the US,
Texas v. White (1869) is still a load of hot garbage, added on per an emotional reaction following the Civil War. The Constitution simply DOES NOT PROHIBIT and desired secession of a state. Where on earth those jackasses found that it did, I'd sure like to know.
I still do not think that Scotland will actually vote to leave their current union.
Well, up front I don't have a dog in that hunt.
That said, when I was last in the general vicinity of the British Isles, 2 of the people I spoke to at length -- who do have -- who do have a vested interest in the outcome -- they both independently said it wouldn't even be close. One said it would be 60% for, & the other indicated upwards of 70% for.
Either way, I think that the Scots will be firmly in the drivers seat in determining their own sovereign future. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/morebeer002.gif)
As far as that Texas v White case, as I recall -- & it's way back there -- it was about who owed who some money & not a right to secession thing? No?
I still do not think that Scotland will actually vote to leave their current union.
Well, up front I don't have a dog in that hunt.
That said, when I was last in the general vicinity of the British Isles, 2 of the people I spoke to at length -- who do have -- who do have a vested interest in the outcome -- they both independently said it wouldn't even be close. One said it would be 60% for, & the other indicated upwards of 70% for.
Either way, I think that the Scots will be firmly in the drivers seat in determining their own sovereign future. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/morebeer002.gif)
As far as that Texas v White case, as I recall -- & it's way back there -- it was about who owed who some money & not a right to secession thing? No?
It started as a money issue, yes, but the question of secession was also answered.
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1868/1868_0 (http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1868/1868_0)
"n a 5-to-3 decision, the Court held that Texas did indeed have the right to bring suit and that individuals such as White had no claim to the bonds in question.
The Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature--even if ratified by a majority of Texans--were "absolutely null." Even during the period of rebellion, however, the Court found that Texas continued to be a state.
I got to thinking about something Smiley posted earlier. It's the map showing South Carolina in red, Smiley says it's about the same size as Scotland.
Maybe so, maybe no. I do have it on good authority that lots of Scotsmen settled in the Carolinas and Georgia, though. The very best authority. One of my uncles did some research and found that our branch of Clan McMillan settled there, and before my Dad came up here to live and work in the Chicago area he was born and raised in Southern Georgia-- still to this day a heavily Scots area.
I got to thinking about something Smiley posted earlier. It's the map showing South Carolina in red, Smiley says it's about the same size as Scotland.
Well…
South Carolina (from United States Summary: 2000 (http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2000/phc3-us-pt1.pdf), p. 29)
Area: 32,020.20 sq mi (82,932 km^2)
Scotland (from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland))
Area: 78,387 km^2 (30,414 sq mi)
So yeah, that sounds about right.
Independence for Orkney; it's Orkney oil, not Scotland's; the Islanders should not be ruled by Edinburgh.
:knight:
It's fish's oil, not Orkney's.
What do they propose to do about Ulster? Ulster is more Scottish than it is English, and assuming they don't want to let the Northern 6 counties join their brothers to the South it seems that Ulster should be Scotland's worry rather than England's if Scotland wins independence.
What!?
What!?
It's simplicity itself. The Protestant group in Ulster (Northern Ireland) are predominantly Scotsmen. Orangemen hold parades every now and then, stirring up patriotic feeling amongst the Orange contingent and great unrest amongst the Catholic people in the community. So, if Scotland becomes independent, the question is do they take Ulster with them, or do they try to make Ulster the problem of Ireland and what remains of the UK?
Are those Scottish people dreaming or what?
How can they turn independent if not only in appearance? They are totally English dependent, the moment England wants and they will starve.
To be an independent Nation populations must fight for centuries and centuries and centuries, blood has to be shred, courage and passion must live in our hearts, as my Nation always did and will keep on doing it no matter how dark present moments can be.
History has to be written with blood, sweat and tears. Only that way Independence exists.
No one gets independent because ohh they vote and by magic turns independent.
Petite modernist noveaux riche bourgeois thinking that Independence is the newest soap opera in television. It isn't.
Such a pity we don't have e-cash on here, @Frenzie and @Macallan, also, @Luxor and @mjmsprt40.
I'd not mind placing an imaginary e-wager in this thread with @SmileyFaze and @Luxor. :left: :cheers:
I don't 'bet' on trivial matters I don't have a vested interest in, but the 'blood, sweat, & tears' scenario our Portuguese friend dangles like a carrot interests me. I might consider being coaxed out of retirement for the right 'price'. God knows I would love a chance to torment the bodies & minds of some deserving English prey, not at the bequest of the lowly Scots, but for my own delectation if it should come to pass. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BigToothSmile.gif)
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hilander.gif)
RJ -- Tightwad the Terrible he loves kickin' himself in the nuts with his heels.
The campaign for Scottish independence is gaining ground with five months to go until the referendum, according to new polls.
The gap between the two sides has narrowed, suggesting a two-point swing could be enough to secure a "yes" vote on September 18.
An ICM poll for the Scotland on Sunday newspaper shows support for independence is at 39%, while opposition has fallen four points to 42%.
The vote will take place on September 18
Excluding people who have not yet made up their minds, the results put "yes" on 48% and "no" on 52%.
It is the highest level of support for independence since last August, leading the Yes Scotland campaign group to claim it is "confident" of securing the necessary two-point swing.
Yes Scotland chief executive Blair Jenkins said: "The extreme negativity of the 'no' campaign is proving a major turn-off for voters, and month by month they are paying the price." ........................ continued
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/beerCouch002.gif)
Independence for Orkney; it's Orkney oil, not Scotland's; the Islanders should not be ruled by Edinburgh.
:knight:
You know that Orkney and Shetland are pawned, and could be returned to a king of Norway for 2310 kg of silver?
Copying this from elsewhere, but I found this to be a pretty good piece, in favor of continued unity: http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/its-because-i-am-scottish-that-i-want-scotland-to-stay-in-the-uk-says-reid (http://bettertogether.net/blog/entry/its-because-i-am-scottish-that-i-want-scotland-to-stay-in-the-uk-says-reid)
-By John Reid, the Scottish politician (Labour) who is the former UK Home Secretary, and former Secretary of State for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Defence.
"The coming months will be the most important in the history of our country. They will decide the future not just for today’s generation, but for those who come after us. Separation is not just for Christmas; it is irreversible. The stakes could not be any higher.
I support Scotland's partnership within the UK, not despite being Scottish, but precisely because I am Scottish. I want the best for my country and the welfare of its people. I want us to have control of our own uniquely Scottish affairs, while also having the power to extend our influence, strength and reach through our membership of the larger economic and political unit of the United Kingdom. In short, I want us to have the best of both worlds.
That's what devolution gives us. That's why I fought for it for so long, against some of those who would now rather forget they opposed it for so long - like Alex Salmond. And now the SNP want to gamble with that future - and with people's livelihoods - on a set of false pretences.
Firstly, the pretence that separation from the UK will be all reward and no risk. There are huge risks involved - in terms of our economy, finance, investment, employment, pensions, defence, security and in many other areas. People have a right to argue their case for separatism, but I would respect them more if they did not pretend that there are no risks involved. That is a cruel deceit. If you want divorce then don’t pretend you can keep the benefits of marriage.
The positive case for our partnership of the UK lies partly in its capacity to reduce these risks through a larger, stronger economy, a centuries-old stable structure for investment and a greater capacity to weather the economic storms.
The financial crisis of 2008 is the best example of why pooling and sharing resources across the UK is a strong Scottish case for staying in the UK. When the Royal Bank of Scotland, based in Edinburgh, was on the verge of collapse, its toxic debt was greater than the whole GDP of Scotland. The only thing that saved it, and the jobs of thousands of people in Scotland and throughout Britain, was the strength of the UK economy.
Secondly, I reject the pretence that we have to choose between being Scottish or being British. In fact, people are perfectly capable of being both - and many of us may also feel, for example, a bit Irish, or Polish, Pakistani, Indian or Lithuanian. That is not a matter of shame, it is a matter of pride. None of this undermines our loyalty to, or love of, Scotland. It is an arrogant presumption to insist that it does. Being part of the UK does not diminish our Scottishness. On the contrary, it provides a platform for us to reach out to the wider world in our Scottish expertise, values and reputation.
When Scottish men and women working for Scottish-based British companies succeed, it doesn't just strengthen the British economy, it strengthens our economy here in Scotland. When Scottish scientists, doctors, inventors, engineers, academics and the rest travel the world with British institutions, it doesn't reduce the reputation of Scottish education, it increases it.
When Scottish Olympians from Allan Wells to Liz McColgan to Chris Hoy stand on the winners’ podiumholding Olympic medals as part of team GB, they don't abandon their Scottishness or their country's reputation. Scotland's name is celebrated alongside Britain's.
When Alex Ferguson led an English team to victory in the European Cup, did anyone doubt that he was Scottish, just because he was leading an English team? Scottish leadership was being proclaimed.
We remain as Scottish as we ever were. But as part of the UK we pool and share our resources for the benefit of all. This allows us to tackle injustice and poverty and provide greater opportunities for future generations of Scots.
So many of the institutions incorporating our values of fairness, compassion, openness and dynamism have emerged from that partnership in the UK. The National Health Service, founded by a Welshman. The Welfare State, designed by an Englishman. The BBC, founded by a Scotsman. The Minimum Wage, introduced by a Scottish-born, British Prime Minister.
So we have a strong positive case to make for our partnership in the UK. To question the risks inherent in abandoning those advantages is not negative - it is wise; and essential. They are about fundamental issues. And they are not going to go away, Alex. So try answering them, instead of blustering. For starters:
- What would replace the Pound?
- How would we get back into the European Union and would we lose the UK’s special deals on border controls, the rebate and the Euro?
- What would happen to pensions, which will be more difficult to fund in the years to come as Scotland’s pensioner population rapidly outpaces the number of people in work and paying tax?
These are key issues for Scots with a mortgage, a pension or whose job depends on us being part of the UK currency.
Those campaigning for the break-up of the most successful economic, political and social union the world has ever seen need to be more honest about the risks going it alone would involve. It’s one thing for them to claim that separation is worth those risks, to have the courage of their convictions. But it’s quite another to pretend the risks don’t exist.
Telling us that it will be "alright on the night" won't wash. If we leave the UK there is no going back. Everybody in Scotland has a responsibility to get involved. If this is just a debate between politicians the public will switch off. Don’t wake up the day after the referendum wishing you had done more to keep Scotland in the UK.
I believe we will win this campaign because the arguments of both the head and the heart are overwhelmingly in our favour. We really can have the best of both worlds – a uniquely Scottish identity and place in the world, without losing the back-up that comes from being part of something bigger. We are stronger and better together.
Salmondnomics - a view of economics which ignores reality.
Mind you the SNP are not alone, we also have UKIP in the UK who cannot admit to the very severe downside of leaving the EU.
Salmondonomics or Faragenomics - not much difference there - jingoism at the expense of realism.
The naive leading the gullible.
In an innovative approach to winning friends and influencing people, Salmon has stated that European nations could be barred from Scottish and Norwegian waters if an independent Scotland was refused EU membership. (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/alex-salmond-fisheries-eu-scotland12)'.
Wikipedia has a map of the exclusive economic zones.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2Fb%2Fb8%2FNorth_sea_eez.PNG%2F517px-North_sea_eez.PNG&hash=b67481b1954e009597f463f639706ad4" rel="cached" data-hash="b67481b1954e009597f463f639706ad4" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b8/North_sea_eez.PNG/517px-North_sea_eez.PNG) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:North_sea_eez.PNG)
Scotland certainly has a nice big stretch of the North Sea, but it's unclear to me how it'd bar access to Norse waters. (Or, for that matter, why they would even consider such a thing in the first place.)
Edit:
Something I didn't know: apparently the whole thing is divided into little blocks of one degree of longitude by one degree of latitude:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F2%2F23%2FBlocksnethcontplat.jpg%2F361px-Blocksnethcontplat.jpg&hash=5b928c166b210956c323f002d31ffebf" rel="cached" data-hash="5b928c166b210956c323f002d31ffebf" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Blocksnethcontplat.jpg/361px-Blocksnethcontplat.jpg) (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Blocksnethcontplat.jpg)
From that map, although it does not show yet which area might be part of Scottish jurisdiction, I agree, Salmond's threat is empty. Presumably he said that for home consumption, thinking to give the impression that he has a strong hand to play. I don't believe for one moment that he fools the Scottish electorate. ... A bit insulting of him really.
He has form, threatening to reneg on Scotland's debts if he does not get his own way with the UK. Such outbursts not only antagonise his counterparts in any discussion but also damage Scotland's reputation.
Non-broken link (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/apr/28/alex-salmond-fisheries-eu-scotland)
Nice map, though quite literally the North Sea only, the black line being the drainage basin.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fc%2Fc4%2FEurop%25C3%25A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png&hash=2076760a62a1852291a6fda6f5ddb645" rel="cached" data-hash="2076760a62a1852291a6fda6f5ddb645" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Europ%C3%A4ische_Wasserscheiden.png)
No, it wouldn't block Norway from the North Sea, or anyone from anyone else, really. Here is the full picture, with Danish seas highlighted, with the Faroe Islands in the middle. A fairly significant part of the Scottish claim is based on Shetland and Orkneys.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fb%2Fb0%2FTerritorial_waters_-_Denmark.svg&hash=f6c9af9eec46ac377dd53e39b35a274a" rel="cached" data-hash="f6c9af9eec46ac377dd53e39b35a274a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Territorial_waters_-_Denmark.svg)
Threatening to kick out the EU if it misbehaves, as I doubt it will, seems quite reasonable.
It is good to know that political craziness isn't exclusively an American thing. Looks like there's plenty to go around, so Scotland and the rest of the UK can have generous helpings, with enough left over that nobody needs to feel left out.
You can always rely on The Guardian for taking things out of context and publishing them as facts.
Here's what he actually said.
The Scottish Government recognises that continued membership of the EU will require negotiations on the specific terms. That is only right and proper. But these negotiations will be completed within the 18 month period between a Yes vote in September and achieving independence in March 2016.
You don’t have to depend on the Scottish Government for that opinion. I can cite Professor James Crawford, the UK Government’s own chosen legal expert on such matters. The Professor told the BBC’s Today programme that an 18 month timetable is “realistic” – that was on the same day that his report for the UK Government was published.
Sir David Edward, of course, is the former judge of the European Court of Justice; one of the true architects of the European Union. It is Sir David who has said that during the 18 months between the Scottish Yes vote and independence “there will be an obligation to negotiate a solution that does not lead to the absurd result that is being suggested” of Scotland being required to leave the EU only to immediately re-apply for membership.
And there’s another reason why James Crawford is right in saying that the 18 month timetable is realistic. Scotland will ask for continued membership on the basis of “continuity of effect”, and at no detriment to other members.
So there need be no reopening of the EU budget agreed last year to 2020. Scotland would take responsibility for its share of UK contributions and receipts – which means that we would still be a net contributor to the EU. We would remain within the Common Travel Area of the British Isles, as we are at present. And as a senior UK Government minister acknowledged to the Guardian newspaper last month, “of course” we will continue to share a currency with the rest of the UK.
We propose a practical, common sense approach to membership, which means that there is no detriment – none whatsoever – to any other member of the European Union as a result of Scotland’s continuing membership.
And the alternative – the fishing fleets of 12 countries being denied any access to Scottish waters and as a consequence, their access to Norwegian waters, which is also dependent on Scottish access; 160,000 EU workers and students, and of course voters, in Scotland suddenly uncertain about their status; five and a quarter million people ceasing to be EU citizens against their will – this alternative, as Sir David Edward points out, is clearly absurd.
Full speech for those who have nothing better to do is published here (http://wingsoverscotland.com/in-bruges/). (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Link.gif)
Right now at least I do have something better to do, Sangria beckons, but I note that Salmond did say those things and yes, it's a threat, veiled or not.
Note that fishing in national waters may well be a matter for that country alone (to a certain extent depending on how far offshore the "claim" extends), but passage though those waters to access other fishing grounds is most certainly not.
More hype on the EU again from the Brigadoon mindset. Quoting some academe when the leadership of the EU has told Salmond the truth is something else! This the same First Minister who stated the SNP had taken legal advice some time ago then we found out he had in fact lied. He just comes out with something that sounds good or appeals to the emotional Brigadoons who favour smart sayings than having to deal with actual answers. Another typical example of propaganda by Salmond is typical too.
Time after time he has been seen waxing lyrical with that bullying swagger of his on what Scotland has to sufferingly get. Time after time he has sneered that Scotland never gets what it votes for. Now here is an interesting factual truth. Since the end of the 2WW, Scotland has voted Conservative twice and the UK got an Tory government. Some 8 times, Scotland voted Labour and what do you know, we got a Labour government! Salmond is more of a nation follower than a practical person capable of dealing with political wrongs. So when there are political and economic queries he will simply go on about being a nation again like that daft song. Actually we have always been a nation of four together but only emphasises what I say about dealing with actual things and go on waving a flag.
I still do not think that Scotland will actually vote to leave their current union.
Well, up front I don't have a dog in that hunt.
That said, when I was last in the general vicinity of the British Isles, 2 of the people I spoke to at length -- who do have -- who do have a vested interest in the outcome -- they both independently said it wouldn't even be close. One said it would be 60% for, & the other indicated upwards of 70% for.
Either way, I think that the Scots will be firmly in the drivers seat in determining their own sovereign future. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/morebeer002.gif)
As far as that Texas v White case, as I recall -- & it's way back there -- it was about who owed who some money & not a right to secession thing? No?
It started as a money issue, yes, but the question of secession was also answered.
http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1868/1868_0 (http://www.oyez.org/cases/1851-1900/1868/1868_0)
"In a 5-to-3 decision, the Court held that Texas did indeed have the right to bring suit and that individuals such as White had no claim to the bonds in question. The Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas legislature--even if ratified by a majority of Texans--were "absolutely null." Even during the period of rebellion, however, the Court found that Texas continued to be a state.
Sorry, I missed this post, but where the bloody hell in our Sacred U.S. Constitution does it
even remotely stipulate that
"....individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union...." ???????
Firstly, Colonel Rebel is correct in that Scotland will remain in Great Britain this September. More chance me kissing the Pope's ruing of the alternative. I don't mind the dark but avoid jumping in it. Kind of odd for SmileyFaze to comment he has no great interest in this matter as this is what the thread is about. Last week I was able to obtain a sheet of large stickers to well stick on a jacket and it gives a simple Scots answer by just saying "Naw."
As for the sidetracking of the ex-colonies I think that it was rather sad that the 1861 situation did not lead to two Americas. It would have made sense and how ridiculous is it for some country that wants to think it created democracy to avoid a basic political argument? After all, America is more than happy to be supportive of referendums in countries it wants to subjugate or control money-wise but not at home? Hhhm, betrays a lack of confidence.
Being a strong Scottish Unionist and therefore totally against separation from the UK what we have had is a legitimate political system. That such cannot happen over there is sad. Mind you if the State of Texas went independent it would be automatically helped as unlike the other States it has sole control (oddly) for land records not the Federal lot in DC. Indeed it would probably be financially capable!
More generally, I will take the train to Edinburgh for a No Rally in Edinburgh through the city to speeches in a park. And I can tell all that unlike the nationalist rally last year this second pro-Union one will unlike the Brigadoon shortbread lot have 5-figures on the march. You can bet your bottom pound that Salmond (note string!) and his ever gazing at him female assistant leader will still try to claim something the morning after when they lose.
Proud to be Scottish.
Proud to be British
The other night here in the land of the heather Salmond the SNP Leader and first Minister visited the large Muslim temple on the south side of the River Clyde and near the city centre. There he was cuddling and arms round various Muslims sooking in obviously for their Referendum votes. Real grovelling stuff and sanctimonious Makes me wonder why he toadies in with them then I recalled that a year or two ago his deputy, Nicola Sturgeon gets their votes in her constituency and they did a fund-raiser for the SNP. One was even in a kilt and put me right off my Irn Bru He'll grovel to anyone. First it was the Church of rome Cardinal until that red cloak had to resign due to being a shirt lifting oooh-a-la. It all looked so pathetic toadying up to Islam. Wonder when he will get round to the churches - but I won't be holding my breath.
Referendum is a tricky thing. What if one shiny day your land will become "Scosovo"?
I have well voiced my stance on being a NO voter as most of my associates will be too. As for that dirge "Flower of Scotland" I have never sung it, won't sing it or prefer not to be anywhere where it is. The thing is so pathetic drifting back to another world of the 14th century. Personally, i admire the Battle of Bannockburn and unexpected result but have moved on. It just epitomises the old Scots-English stuff over the years. Salmond simply appeals to the strident and mouthy radical side of Scots but doesn't match common sense. However there are more important issues than thinking his mouthy piffle is a direction to our future. Whether on economy, currency, Europe and much else the Nationalists simply do not answer the question and instead the answers are to scoff and ridicule and so on. The Brigadoon lot for example said that the UK stance on a shared currency "no" was simply bluffing (?). What don't they understand about what the 3 main parties have told them? Just a typical example of the scoffing froth instead of handling issues.
The one thing that has to be watched is for the No people to not get lazy and think it couldn't happen. I have also given examples where Salmond has lied and those silly Scots who allowed the SNP to get a narrow majority in the Scots parliament need heads banged together because the protest votes that got the Salmond mob in caused this stuff re September.
So that brings up the interesting possibility that Scotland may successfully vote to become independent, but the day after independence find that they have no money since the UK government has already said the Pound Sterling can't be used by the newly independent Scotland. Free but broke. Of course, there's the Euro, but until the powers-that-be on the Continent choose to recognize the newly-minted Scots government that could be a problem too.
So, how many Monopoly games have you got? Until you get somebody to allow you the use of their money that just might have to do.
Putin will be happy to help.
You are spot on there mjsmsprt40. I hardly ever hear anyone talking about the Referendum but is an open argument as to whether that is good or bad. Television keeps yakking about it but most get on with their daily lives. Independence would lead to all sorts of difficulties and that headbanger the First Minister and SNP Leader thinks everything would be sorted within 18 months.
When the Nationalists are faced with a challenging statement they resort to frustrating attitudes. You will get comments such as the matter of the currency ban by the UK as a "bluff." That is not the case at all and many up here would be concerned about all the difficulties following. On other routine matters the usual style is to try and joke it off or be demeaning as if only the SNP could satisfy Scots. They are so damn arrogant and think they own the country by some right. Anyone outside of the SNP waving a St Andrew's Saltire flag is almost regarded as a Quisling. They often wave the Lion Rampant and you get a black look when you ask why as that is actually a Royal Standard. The Nats like to drift back to 1707 and the Union of Parliaments but they equally choose not to dwell on the fact that we had financially messed up being greedy and in a state of bankruptcy we couldn't solve.
I am happy to have a broad width in society including the stupid but I confess to not wanting them to rule.
They are so damn arrogant and think they own the country by some right. Anyone outside of the SNP waving a St Andrew's Saltire flag is almost regarded as a Quisling
What complete and utter bullshit. Jeez! I try to ignore your rantings, but sometimes you make it difficult for me to do so.
Meanwhile leaving the bairn for the sie at the moment it is interesting that the reaction of the young is pertinent to the Referendum.
Previously, I indicated the reaction from Secondary Schools in Salmond's own north east corner of Scotland where they all except a Special School dismissed the Yes lot in mock referendums. So too did the students of Strathclyde university and even more recently a poll of 16 and 17 year-old school pupils. Salmond and his greatest admirer, Sturgeon who looks up at him with awe) do scoff, sneer and bluff in place of definitive questions to them. A typical lie by Salmond was on the matter of Scots not getting what they vote for. I recently illustrated this as a downright lie and listed General elections where Scotland voted Labour and there was a UK Labour Government and of course 2 where the same principle applied to the Conservatives. I did note that Luxor of course choose to ignore this.
Salmond tries to use the traditional Scots radical attitude and cheekiness for his own dubious ends but will be increasingly found out of course. Another ignorance is that he sneers at Scotland getting Tory regimes as if that one was something from outer space. As around 400,000 Scots vote Tory isn't that being ignorant of their rights as Scots? Salmond likes to dish out the smart alex stuff at Holyrood although i don't watch that show too often as it is a joke. He ridicules the Labour opposition but he doesn't like it when their leader dishes it back. Today the SNP was also rubbishing the Liberal Democrats with the usual sneeringly mocking stuff. The slated them for not being able to get anywhere after 100 years. That wouldn't be so much a problem if it wasn't for the other fact that the SNP has been after their daft aim for 80 years!One could look at him more reasonably if he acted properly instead of the scurrilous way he acts in reality. Luxor can dance around his youthful ploys in place of depth but such is life and Salmond will get his come-uppence soon! Just as well he wasn't around at Bannockburn as he would have muffed that victory. :yikes:
I did note that Luxor of course choose to ignore this.
I try to ignore everything you say. But I don't think I'm missing much by doing so. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shrugs.gif)
A question to both of you Scots - the referendum campaign is rather bruising I think. What do you think will be the aftermath (in Scotland, not the rest of the UK) - will the "loosing side" accept the result? Will there be some form of national split? Will that depend on who "wins"? Is reconciliation even possible?
What do you think will be the aftermath (in Scotland, not the rest of the UK) - will the "loosing side" accept the result?
Unfortunately you have nutters on both sides who won't accept the result if it goes against them, hopefully they are in the minority. There is a certain group who support no, who will definitely throw their toys out the pram if they lose and if you know anything about Scotland you can probably guess who they are. I'm sure there will be fervent nationalists on the other side of the fence too, though I've never met one. There will be bitter disappointment for whichever side loses, that's for sure. But the majority will get over that after a few days and then just get on with their life.
The only thing I know for certain is how it will affect me personally. In my case I'll still be friends with the same people I'm friends with now, regardless of how they vote and I will treat anyone else the same. Can't speak for others though, but I hope they are mature enough to accept defeat.
Maybe String is thinking the whole of Scotland will break down into the Hatfields and the McCoys. I note that the feud between these two families took place in Eastern Kentucky, but it involved two families with Scots ancestries.
In the case of Scotland, it might break down into the old Lowland vs Highland bad blood of old.
In the case of Scotland, it might break down into the old Lowland vs Highland bad blood of old.
I don't think so. It's not about the north and south of the country and I say that as a lowlander.
Luxor, it could be a mixture of arrogance and lack of an answer regarding your negative vibes on my stance. You are incapable of answering things like Salmond lying over the matter of how Scotland votes and what UK government it gets. You like me have rights of sa stance and Scotland could be independent but I don't want to live in a backwater. The same applies to anything definitive. Ignoring the matter of sharing the pound, Bank of England control and much else. So you can be as toffy-nosed as you wish and avoid the direct matters raised in this thread. I on the other hand have raised actual matters have held public office and been much involved. in local life including politics. You do follow the SNP's rather arrogant and snooty leaning and when it cannot answer a question the scoffing and bluffing comes out. We should also remember that when Czechoslovakia split into two different countries they tried sharing currency and just over a month later had to do away with that idea!
On a broader note for the more appraising minds, I do not think there will be any widespread antagonism after the Referendum. Neither do i think there will be any dividing line between Highlands and Lowlands. I am a Lowlander but not carried away with the tosh about kilts and such. What i do find passingly amusing is that many in the Lowlands that have been brained into propaganda regarding the kilt being the national dress would if here in 1745 made up a big chink of the army that sorted out the Pretender on Culloden field. Being a Glaswegian born and bred I am especially proud that this city unanimously was against the so-called bonnie Prince Charlie who threatened to burn the city down (!).
i would hope that most would follow Luxor's example, although a close. result will do some damage I suspect.
I would never, ever, in normal circumstances, pronounce myself about such minuscule, unimportant, pseudo-happening as this one, however reading the debate between RjHowie and Luxor I must say that the international public opinion (neither Scottish or British) is not elucidated.
In fact, if RjHowie fulfills the criteria for those that prefers to be dominated instead of masters of their destiny, Luxor doesn't seems to me a real fighter for the freedom of his beloved country but more a pacific, very political correct, modern citizen.
I would like to hear the part that hates the invaders, the irredeemables, the part that much more than the invaders has the legitimacy to say No Surrender!
Those are the ones that matters, no matter the consequences.
All over Europe people are trading principles for monetarism, freedom for subjugation to economics.
I hope that a good example can come from the land where men wear skirts. May it can ashame the rest.
Well now Belfrager you should know about controlling your own destiny stuff by being reminded that Portugal was a dictatorship for decades. So the advice is a little out of sync! I am fighting for my country and have little time for political correctness or damp squib politics. I and many others will continue to fight to keep Scotland where it is. After we vote "no", I think the next stage will be greater powers for the Scots parliament in Edinburgh. Frankly that is not what I want but will put up with it as it negates the nationalist thrust. Now must get on with the campaign with other unionists and look forward to a big Unionist parade in Edinburgh later in the year! :) :knight:
From the "Wait, what??" desk:
It seems according to the article below that Scotland will need a lot more immigrants if it is to become independent. This "fact" alone ought to set RJ alight, since one of his pet theories is that the UK as a whole already has too many immigrants. But, low birth rates and an aging population may make it necessary to import more people if a free and independent Scotland is to have a chance. See below-- and fergodsakesdon'tletthisnewsgetsouthofourbordertheyalreadyhaveenoughideas.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/276438-treasury-says-scotland-needs-500000-migrants-to-balance-population/ (http://news.stv.tv/scotland/276438-treasury-says-scotland-needs-500000-migrants-to-balance-population/)
From the "Wait, what??" desk:
Oh shock horror, yet another scare story from the better together mob.
This "fact" alone ought to set RJ alight, since one of his pet theories is that the UK as a whole already has too many immigrants.
The rest of the UK has a problem, that's for sure. Especially the South East of England, that can't be denied.
We don't have the same problem up here with immigration than the rest of the UK, though there are quite likely small pockets of areas somewhere. RJ is in Glasgow and it has it's fair share of immigrants there (I've met many of them), but I would stop short of calling it a problem. Mind you I don't live there, so it's easy for me to say that.
You have to remember a lot of those so-called immigrants that report talks about, will be coming here from the rest of the UK as they do now. It's just that, at the moment they're not classed as immigrants.
You have to remember a lot of those so-called immigrants that report talks about, will be coming here from the rest of the UK as they do now. It's just that, at the moment they're not classed as immigrants.
The same kind of statistics play happens a lot over here. Three in ten Antwerpians is of foreign origin! Most of those foreigners — and this has probably been the case for centuries — are Dutch and from other EU countries, not the implied Turkish (2.5%) or Moroccan (7-8%). Also, at least a quarter of the yearly immigrants are people with the Belgian nationality.
The same kind of statistics play happens a lot over here.
There's some truth in the old saying. Lies, damned lies, and statistics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lies,_damned_lies,_and_statistics).
The immigration issue is complex because as an overlay on the normal "don't like immigrants" issue there is the matter of the Scottish demographics. With an ageing population Scotland needs an infusion of younger residents to generate the wealth which will pay, amongst other things, Pensions. Whether there will be sufficient jobs in Scotland to attract a full spectrum of immigrants/foreign workers is one of the things that the Yes and No camps would disagree, but the bottom line is that there may be insufficient jobs or even less jobs, precipitating an exodus of Scots South and elsewhere.
The other issue is that of border controls of which at present there are none. These would be needed especially given the current furore about uncontrolled immigration in the UK.
A report is due to be issued shortly on an economic assessment of Scottish Separation from the UK. It will no doubt result in the usual display of economic warnings and claims from the SNP that all will be perfect and rosy without a cloud in the sky.
As a British citizen I am indignant, to say the least, that my fellow Brits (The Scots) are being mislead by the SNP who continue to insist that there is nothing ahead but riches and glory. In fact we will all loose.
Last report I read had the "Yes" crowd gaining some ground.
It's been fascinating keeping up with it all.
It's like a soap opera in here with Luxor and Mr. Howie. :right: :D
Good ta (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/captianboat.gif)see ya back Dawg!! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
Good ta (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/captianboat.gif)see ya back Dawg!! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
Thank you Sir!
:cheers: to you, and good to be back!
Polls of course are what you want to make of them but I am still of the view that the majority of Scots wish to remain Scotland where it presently is. Salmond yesterday accused others of bluster, bluff and cheek. Kind of odd and presumptuous as these are his acknowledged personal failures. They have tried to subtly use the Commonwealth Games and the Battle of Bannockburn event yet accuse others of misusing things! If they cannot properly answer an important question the SNP always falls back on sneering and bullying. Salmond said UKIP had no right to be in Scotland - eh? Scotland is still in Great Britain and what damn right has that nationalist smart-alex got to say who can go for votes? it is the age old nationalist arrogance. As it happens they got elected!
The Battle of Bannockburn was a great historical battle and win but the 700th anniversary spectacle was to last 3 days and expected 40,000. Now it seems they have had to cut the suggested numbers to hope for 20,000. Don't think that will happen as they have only sold 5,500 tickets for those 2 days. However Armed Forces Day in nearby Stirling is expected to be supported by large numbers. The SNP comes out with this tripe that the Stirling thing was deliberate. Considering that they were jumping on the Commonwealth Games and the Bannockburn thing it is laughable.
I may delay my third trip to the Netherlands until September and make it a celebration break. Roll on King Billy's palace visit again! As for that Flower of Scotland dirge I will rephrase the words and send the SNP home again. Bring it on.
Saw this in FB today, and figured Mr. Howie would like it:
(https://scontent-a-sea.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10171665_597584243682138_2080797351754307199_n.jpg?oh=43f2bc438f4a2c62f5b86a3ea5f1abcc&oe=53FD8BFC)
He does, he does. And he is going to a rally in September in Edinburgh with an organisation to outdo the nationalist parade last year.
There is a lot of truth in this article, a lot of truth.
Pity the Scots
THE UN-TIED KINGDOM
Great Scot! The Madness of Late-Stage Nationalism (http://www.the-american-interest.com/articles/2014/06/10/great-scot-the-madness-of-late-stage-nationalism/)
An interesting article certainly touching on some reality. That many Scots want separation is a disappointment but there agin sentimentality has always been part of the psyche. Granny's Hielan' Hame and some warped dream with the bagpipes (not my favourite instrument by the way). Even intelligent people thinking separation will be wonderful. Salmond's brain dead propaganda is all about emotion. What does he not understand about the Chancellor George Osborne's statement on the pound? The 3 main Westminster parties are all agreed that an independent Scotland would have it's own currency no the British one. The UK pound stops being a Scots currency on departing. However Salmond has no Plan B on the currency hence his blustering about "we would still have the British pound." Cobblers.
An example of the Nationalist odd ideology amongst the intelligent is this inclident. One of the regular staff a woman in her late 30's got a degree at university and in a face-t-face discussion she came out with the Salmond guff that "Scotland would get a Tory government if we didn't vote for Salmond." I pointed out to her as i said in an earlier submission here that since the 2nd World War, Scotland voted twice for the Conservatives and there was a UK Tory government and on 8 times voted Labour and the national government was Labour. She was simply being a parrot to what Salmond blusters. When I pointed this out she didn't have an answer.
One of the negatives in the debate are the people who say they don't know enough and need to know more before the decide. Talk about being daft when we get the policies of both No and Yes on television, newspapers and through the door! It is easier for the Nats to bellow on because they have a single aim but I still think they will lose as most Scots would prefer more powers inside Gt Britain not jumping into the dark. Salmond used to court RC's and pally with their Cardinal until he got caught with poofing attempts. He says nothing now as the Pope is a NO man (!) as is Obama and that Clinton woman.
I might be annoyed at the level of Scots who say yes but that will I foretell slip onthe voting day. Salmond once got put out of the SNP for being so far letist they couldn't take it - and a staunch Republican. Now he is a "convinced" monarchist but he knows that there is a chunk of his party who are not so inclined and they are keeping mouths shut rather than lose votes. Some have been whispering about a further referendum on the monarchy on a separation. Salmond and that woman Sturgeon are bruisers and blusterers. They cannot tell us how much separating the functions of the State would cost but would borrow hundreds of millions to aid it! They tell us Scotland would have a unique place in the world appealing to the sentimental again. People seeing my No sticker on a jacket have asked for some - actually it uses the Scots word "Naw" and happy yo pas them on. The SNP leaders have already said that Scots who don't support them are doing Scotland down and in fact vistrtually telling the majority of Scots Unionists some kind of quislings. I have no time for such nonsense.
Most people I think don't get too worked up on local or national election voting and I suspect they are a bit fed up with the daily dosage on the media. For me I just want to get the damn thing over with and vote in the September Referendum then fly off to the Netherlandsjust after to celebrate the "NO" vote!
Proud to be Scots - proud to be British..bring it on.
Proud to be Scots - proud to be British..bring it on.
But I'd usually rather be somewhere else…? :)
I greatly enjoyed this post of yours,
rj! (This (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=279.msg22413#msg22413), from someone who calls US politics daft!)
RJH - has there been any clarification in Scotland about how things might work if a separated Scotland would use the Pound, while not being part of a currency union?
On the detailed, but practical and important, issue of physical bank notes, I have to admit to you that I refused a Scottish note in my change the other day. It was given in an automatic check out machine at a hardware store. I saw the manager and got "real money" back. Now I know, as do most, that Scottish notes are legal tender but it was only the third or so such note I'd seen in my life and I didn't want to get stuck with it.
I can imagine that non-problem becoming a real one in the "keeping the pound regardless" scenario. For border trade, for example, and for visits. Where will Scotland get it's actual money from? I can imagine a situation like it was in Russia on the early in the `90s when visitors would be asked for dollars (for a discount) as it was a stable currency.
A Nation that doesn't take its destiny in its own hands, it's not a Nation.
Nothing can change this.
A Nation that doesn't take its destiny in its own hands, it's not a Nation.
Nothing can change this.
Does that mean, in your view, that none of the countries in the EU are true nations?
What about members of the UN?
Does that mean, in your view, that none of the countries in the EU are true nations?
Not anymore since the initial EU project as a Union based in independent and mutually respecting Nations (never federalism) turned into one more German attempt of domination of Europe.
No wonder nationalisms to be emerging all over the place - We are real Nations, we don't submit to others.
You, the British, do well with your half in half out strategy.
Rjhowie's posts have been an endless crying for your protection. I don't like to see Scotland and the brave Scots reduced to that.
What about members of the UN?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=279.133;msg=22441)
UN can't hardly be taken as anything serious. That's only folklore and a good job for those there.
...
1 You, the British, do well with your half in half out strategy.
2 Rjhowie's posts have been an endless crying for your protection. I don't like to see Scotland and the brave Scots reduced to that.
On 1 -- I agree with that actually
On 2 -- That I don't agree with - I need protection from rjh not the other way round. ;)
On where Scotland will get real money after the split: Possibly from the same place the United States gets it. A printing press, and your full faith and trust in-- in this case-- the government of Scotland.
I find out that the US dollar is backed by--- nothing. Your faith that the dollar is any good for anything is about it. Of late, a lot of world currencies seem to be backed by diddly. Once upon a time, printed money was backed by gold, and a dollar could purchase a dollar's worth of gold and was "as good as gold". Today-- not so much. We've been on your faith and trust in the US government since Nixon took us off of the gold standard in 1972.
The problem is, though, that Scotland cannot print Pound notes after separation. At the moment they print them but that is only because they are agreed to be legal tender by the UK central government. Were they to go on printing them without a currency union, then they would become, in effect, forgeries and not be currency which could be exchanged with Sterling notes.
Consequently they would be a Scottish currency, with their own value, different from the pound.
I find out that the US dollar is backed by--- nothing.
Wrong. It's backed by the biggest army in the world. That's why the USA needs desperately to have such absurd.
Saddam Hussein announced that he would sell his petrol in other currencies than dollar. See what happened to him.
Qaddafi went further, he said he would sell his petrol in anything but dollar. See what happened to him.
Technically it's a forgery, a fake currency. If a true currency, you'll have an inflation of 1000% monthly due to the amount of currency you just print. It doesn't happens that way by the solely reason that your army keeps "convincing" the world to accept it.
It wont last longer. Specially when Chinese already have more dollars than you do. The moment they want and it's the collapse.
Ironically it would also produce a Chinese collapse, so that's the reason why dollar (and the USA) keeps existing.
The world is turning a dangerous place.
It is possible to have a currency union, but it is not worth the pain, uncertainty, and suffering. When Czechoslovakia split, that's what happened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia#Currency_division), a transitional de facto currency union, and then the Czechoslovak koruna (Crown) became the Czech koruna and Slovak koruna. Until Slovakia joined another currency union that is, the Eurozone.
It went pretty smoothly. Great for collectors.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketoracle.co.uk%2Fimages%2F2012%2FFeb%2F022712-02.jpg&hash=be94dd39f970842f891966ac3ddd5dd3" rel="cached" data-hash="be94dd39f970842f891966ac3ddd5dd3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2012/Feb/022712-02.jpg)
On the matter of sharing the Pound with a separated Scotland (a currency Union), the position of the UK Government is based on two primary aspects.
1. the report given by the Chief Secretary to the Treasury: Scotland analysis: assessment of a sterling currency union (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scotland-analysis-assessment-of-a-sterling-currency-union)
2. The unpopularity of such a Currency Union with the Public, which results in a political imperative to avoid such a notion.
I'm curious as to whether or not @Luxor will provide us any updates on the "Yes" campaign?
Internet links are great, but I also like to hear from people on the ground. Mr. Howie has thoroughly covered the "Better Together" campaign.
Mr. Howie has thoroughly covered the "Better Together" campaign.
If Dobbin's "blinders" constitute a viewpoint… :)
Firstly Oakdale your assessment of my thoughts on the American system are straight to the point anhd we can all see it asd , well factual. For all your huffing and puffing if a State wanted to vote on leaving the Union all hell would break lose so no advice from your corner is valid.
As for curr3ncy in an independent Scotland , I have already said here that the SNP cannot answer the question properly. They say it is their pound too but that is plain stupid asd it stops being yours if you leave. The GB government and in fact the 3 main GB parties have all said there would be NO currency union and when Salmond is asked about a plan B he cannot answer it. Instead he just blusters and boasts that the currency will be the same.! How can you be independent and still want your currency linked to the Bank of England? And how stupid is that idea in an independent country. It would mean that no matter what was decided in Edinburgh the Bank of England would still control your money! The emotional nonsense that an independent Scotland would have a special place in the world is another nationalist mythology that the brain dead emotionals will grit their teeth on but is a load of nonsense. On defence we would have an atmed service of some 15,000 including an army, "air force" and "navy" which would include frigates. Ha, ha, it gets better all the time. They choose to ignore that fact that Scots serving in HM Forces of the UK don't want to be in a "Scottish Defence Force." To separate finance, taxation, pensions and all the other State things the SNP says would cost 250 million - just another vague sum plucked out of the sky.
The other day an assistant in my local convenience store asked for some of my No jacket stickers and was getting into a young man (early 20's) she knew and directed me to slaughter him politically which I did. He then whimpered that we would still have The Queen and I laughed at his ignorance. I pointed out to him that there was a considerable republican bent amongst SNP people and they didn't want to contradict Salmond in public. However a couple have broke ranks and said that in a separate Scotland they would want a referendum on the Monarchy. However, i do hope they keep that slant up as it will lose them more votes. Nice of you by the way Colonel to want a "balance" from our nationalist pal but I have had a good meal.
On a lighter note. Thanks for your contribution dear Belfrager on nationhood but you are not in a country to boast about on that one! And I am still arranging a NO celebration holiday to Holland right after the Referendum as well as a success party. The Union Flag will continue to fly at the front of my home as well. Indeed a single lady who owns the house 3 along took me for a nice drive and meal in a posh restaurant down the coast on seeing my flag up.
Thanks for your contribution dear Belfrager on nationhood
You're welcome, I always like to help those who needs.
but you are not in a country to boast about on that one!
Really? :)
You're funny.
I understand your nervousness but don't worry. You can always ask for asylum at my beautiful sunny Country after your defeat at the referendum. I foresee a difficult life for collaborationists up there.
The money issue is no small thing.
Consider that if the United States were still on the Pound, the Bank of England could yank our chain whenever they wanted to. And that, with three thousand miles of Atlantic Ocean separating us from them.
Now consider that Scotland is on the same island with England and Wales, and-- well, you get the picture. If you want real independence, you have to get your own money. Otherwise you're like a grown child that moves from your parent's home, but you still expect your parents to pay your rent, feed you, pay your car payments and so on. You might be "free"-- but you're not really free until you're fully responsible for your own upkeep. Until then-- the parents can set the rules because if you don't like what they say, they can just stop paying for everything-- and then what will you do?
If Scotland wants real independence, they have to start thinking about how they're gonna pay for it without depending on England's money.
Scotland has a lot going for it. :) (http://www.wtvideo.com/video/1909/the-dog-that-amazes-everyone-at-crufts-2014)
Sit up and take notice.
By the way - is that rjh on the left? ;)
Me to the left of where string??
Oh and to the Lisbon man, I think Scotland is in a far better sttae that sunny Portugal. It maybe nice to enjoy the weather but considering the place is in financial meltdown, unemployment sky high small wonder Portugese can spend so much time sunning. No comparison dear chap. Oh and Gt Britain is seeing the fasts economic growth in Europe while you had to fall back on handouts....
So do feel free to be with us and under what you like....a monarch.......
Meanwhile roll on September when i will take th train to Edinburgh for a Unionist parade by the OO which will be (like the last one) bigger than that poor thing the Nationalists waffled through the streets with. Now it's Friday so must get out to get more "NO" jacket stickers and re-arrange my flag further out the upstairs window.
Well, up front I don't have a dog in that hunt.
That said, when I was last in the general vicinity of the British Isles, 2 of the people I spoke to at length -- who do have -- who do have a vested interest in the outcome -- they both independently said it wouldn't even be close. One said it would be 60% for, & the other indicated upwards of 70% for......................
Just for everyone's information, well anyone who remembers a post I made a while back where I posted on how 2 close friends near the action in Scotland saw this Independence thing going down, well since that time it looks like RJ is goin' to stumble into a jig.
My friends are now saying that since we last spoke, there has been a turnabout -- the tides seems to have changed, & have switched to go the other way by
over 55% against Independence & Liberty, so RJ & his Royal Bum Sniffer lot will probably be getting their noses filled to the eyeballs with English excremental delight.
I wonder if they do have their way, will the loyal Scots feel the wrath of the English hermaphrodites in Westminster, & be personally saddled with all the
￡36 million or so it costs to keep their toilets sparkling, & the Charlie's boy-toy affairs with Jimmy silent? (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FqzFtmXM.png&hash=96e72190ab3b9784500cfc2203ed5e44" rel="cached" data-hash="96e72190ab3b9784500cfc2203ed5e44" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/qzFtmXM.png)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FzrPvQVB.jpg&hash=e299c995d035d664aa5a480d6e984c9f" rel="cached" data-hash="e299c995d035d664aa5a480d6e984c9f" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/zrPvQVB.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEwcjsfh.jpg&hash=a075c6a26e0187715e9a21fe511fe5b3" rel="cached" data-hash="a075c6a26e0187715e9a21fe511fe5b3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/Ewcjsfh.jpg)
Well, SF, the 70% figure was always a figure brewed in Guiness with a chaser of Scotch. There has been no switch as described by you. That was just bar room fantasizing.
As for the usual diatribe of hate - a colourful display of Ersatz Irish Republican BS - nothing else.
Do you remember George Galloway? He was the one who confronted some American committee or other. Whatever side of the issue of the time you were on, you must have enjoyed the little guy giving it to a row of stuffed shirts!.
Anyway in the link below you will see a report on a speech he gave on the Scottish Referendum. Part way down that page you will find an audio of the speech; I suggest you listen to that, rather than read the article, to get the full impact of what he had to say. It's for a British audience of course, but others might find it interesting.
Scottish independence: Listen to George Galloway’s stirring speech in defence of the Union (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scottish-independence-george-galloways-stirring-speech-in-defence-of-the-union-9566418.html)
I don't know about anybody else, but for my part I immediately discount anything appearing in a scandal-rag like the Globe. That stuff is printed for amusement purposes only, and it's quite likely that an "Onion" headline is closer to the truth.
"Beyonce reveals she is bearing space-alien baby!"
Oh, really? OK, if you say so, Globe, I guess it's true..... not.
The actual vote, when it happens, will likely be nutty enough without scandal-rag help, as it happens.
RJH - has there been any clarification in Scotland about how things might work if a separated Scotland would use the Pound, while not being part of a currency union?
...
I can imagine that non-problem becoming a real one in the "keeping the pound regardless" scenario. For border trade, for example, and for visits. Where will Scotland get it's actual money from? I can imagine a situation like it was in Russia on the early in the `90s when visitors would be asked for dollars (for a discount) as it was a stable currency.
Ask anyone from the border region between the Czech Republic and Slovakia. When they divided both kept their own version the Koruna, which started out at parity and at least in the border region either one was accepted on either side. I'm not sure if the two Korunas ever differed enough in value to cause problems, but these days both use the Euro.
A Nation that doesn't take its destiny in its own hands, it's not a Nation.
Nothing can change this.
Does that mean, in your view, that none of the countries in the EU are true nations?
What about members of the UN?
The UN is a debating club, not any sort of government ( and if I remember correctly, that's exactly what it's supposed to be ).
Well SmileyFaze has either blinkers or talks to those discharged from a mental health place. Where the heavens does he get the 60 or 70% for independence?? Not one poll has even listed a majority for the yes people. Obvious he dealth with a couple of emotional Hielan Hame granny minds that dream but i gave up on Brigadoon as a child.
Can I also say that my Chicagoan friend mjsmsprt40 hits the nail on the head regarding currency. The Nationalists cannot give an answer to the stated fact by the UK that there will be NO shared currency in an independent Scotland yet the SNP still wants to be with the Bank of England. As mjsmsprt40 has acknowledged (and I have said it here) how can you plan your own economy if another country can decide what you can do? Now the SNP is getting round to have to admit that the money they would need to change everything from tax, economy, registrations of cars and all such things along with passports and everything else would mean borrowing in the 10 figures. It is always the same from their leader who blusters when challenged on indepth things.
As I informed he used to quote Ireland re economics and they only got off their knees by joining the EEC and be subsidised by places like Britain, France, Germany, etc. We helped subsidise Portuga tool! When Ireland unfortunately went nearly bankrupt and wages reduced sadly the SNP then wanted to copy the Scandinavian countries. Yet there tax is 50% of you income and would not go down well here at al. Neither can you transpose another culture which has a different history.
Now where is that dashed butler when you want him as I need to send a case of Irn Bru to Chicago. 8)
Regarding polls, here is the BBC page on the subject
Scottish referendum poll tracker (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/poll-tracker)
It looks like the undecided are moving to the No side of the debate.
We helped subsidise Portuga tool!
You helped nothing. You, like the rest, behaved as usurers, sinister moneylenders practicing exorbitant interest rates.
That's a crime, by the way.
As a matter of curiously, what was the loan, what for and what was the interest rate?
Around 7%, sixty or seventy thousand million euros, for paying back other loans lend by the same ones, as a result of EU directives forbidden us of having our fishing, agriculture and industry.
And there you have how mob style financing is done these days with the connivance of European Governments.
Not complaining about anything just to let clear that we never had any help from no one, Scots, British, Germans, whatever.
Course rjhowie thought deeply about all those things. As a result, he went running under British skirts faster than Bip Bip.
Thanks.
Is this the loan you were talking about? In which cased congratulations from getting out from under.
Portugal needs no more loans, says PM Passos Coelho (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27278983)
Ask anyone from the border region between the Czech Republic and Slovakia. When they divided both kept their own version the Koruna, which started out at parity and at least in the border region either one was accepted on either side. I'm not sure if the two Korunas ever differed enough in value to cause problems, but these days both use the Euro.
Right, but not quite right. To quote this wise guy:
It is possible to have a currency union, but it is not worth the pain, uncertainty, and suffering. When Czechoslovakia split, that's what happened (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia#Currency_division), a transitional de facto currency union, and then the Czechoslovak koruna (Crown) became the Czech koruna and Slovak koruna. Until Slovakia joined another currency union that is, the Eurozone.
It went pretty smoothly. Great for collectors.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.marketoracle.co.uk%2Fimages%2F2012%2FFeb%2F022712-02.jpg&hash=be94dd39f970842f891966ac3ddd5dd3" rel="cached" data-hash="be94dd39f970842f891966ac3ddd5dd3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/images/2012/Feb/022712-02.jpg)
The Czech Republic never switched to Euro, and is in a noticeable lack of urgency in doing so either (the new entrants are all obliged to switch, but Sweden showed the way out for reluctant new members). After a short period of currency union, it was split into Czech and Slovak koruna. Czechoslovak bank notes had gotten a stamp to show if it was a Czech or Slovak note, like the 1000 bill above, and were replaced by true Czech and Slovak notes as quick as the printing press could manage. The Slovak koruna fell a bit relative to the Czech, and stayed about 15-20% lower for most of the time before they rushed into the Eurozone.
Were there transition costs for the two countries? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.
The most sensible option would be to have a Scottish pound. Would there be transition costs? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.
The Czech Republic never switched to Euro, and is in a noticeable lack of urgency in doing so either (the new entrants are all obliged to switch, but Sweden showed the way out for reluctant new members).
Huh, I thought they switched in the mid-2000s, it occasionally popped up in german media. Guess they were planning to and never did ( or some german journalists confused joining the EU with joining the euro zone - your guess is as good as mine ). Haven't been there since 2002 since the trip is now considerably longer :right:
After a short period of currency union, it was split into Czech and Slovak koruna. Czechoslovak bank notes had gotten a stamp to show if it was a Czech or Slovak note, like the 1000 bill above, and were replaced by true Czech and Slovak notes as quick as the printing press could manage. The Slovak koruna fell a bit relative to the Czech, and stayed about 15-20% lower for most of the time before they rushed into the Eurozone.
I've been in Slovakia in the 1990s, shortly after the split. Must have been 1995 or so. They already had their own coins which almost all looked brand new. As I said, around the border they were used interchangeably. Brought a set of slovakian coins back for my coin collecting grandfather.
Were there transition costs for the two countries? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.
The most sensible option would be to have a Scottish pound. Would there be transition costs? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.
Well, I heard the scottish pound already exists :right:
True, but it wouldn't do to say that paper bills issued by the Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland... would be the Scottish cash in circulation. For one thing they are the minority bills even in Scotland, while in England they are rare and there are people like String who refuse to take them. Money would have to be denoted Scottish and Non-Scottish, and south of the border it would probably be better to create a New Model Pound or some such. You'd have to pay a fair penny for it, but on the plus side you flush out the suitcases of black money that way, like what happened in countries switching to Euro or in Czechoslovakia. Governments like that.
On the matter of the status of the Scottish paper currency, after a little research, I offer the following for clarification:
Notes and coins for the English pound are legal tender only in England and Wales but are used in Northern Ireland and Scotland. Alongside this both Scotland and Northern Ireland use their own versions of some notes issued by a select few banks located within those countries.
Scottish Bank notes are issued by the Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank and Royal Bank of Scotland. While they are not legal tender, they are UK Parliament-approved legal currency and may (but not must) be accepted. However it is the responsibility of the bank that issued them to exchange them for an equivalent amount in English Pounds.
I have only seen 2 or 3 Scottish notes in my lifetime and no Northern Ireland notes. I would not accept them for fear of neither being able to exchange them for English pounds nor being able to spend them. It’s probably different near the border with Scotland but I don't know.
There is a little further information in question 24 of the Bank of England FAQ. (http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/pages/about/faqs.aspx)
There's a difference between legal tender and legal currency? That clarification fails to clarify anything. It's as silly as it would be if euro area coins with German flip side were of doubtful value in France or French coins in Germany. Untenable and pointless.
It seems that Bank of England merely has not made up her mind properly. On one hand the dependencies (or whatever the parts of UK are called) are bound by the currency (legal tender), on the other hand they are free to have a little illusion of independence (opportunity to issue "own" money).
There's a difference between legal tender and legal currency? That clarification fails to clarify anything. It's as silly as it would be if euro area coins with German flip side were of doubtful value in France or French coins in Germany. Untenable and pointless.
It seems that Bank of England merely has not made up her mind properly. On one hand the dependencies (or whatever the parts of UK are called) are bound by the currency (legal tender), on the other hand they are free to have a little illusion of independence (opportunity to issue "own" money).
No doubt you have looked at the internet for a definition of legal tender, as I have and found it somewhat confusing, not least because the definition varies from country to country in terms of what people understand by the term.
The best definition I found, to my mind, is that from here (http://definitions.uslegal.com/l/legal-tender/) where it states that "Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt".
With that in mind, read now this (http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines) and it begins to make sense. Note the extension of legal tender status to coins; presumably this is the same for the Euro zone.
The fact is that normal people don't distinguish money in that way and it has become more up to the individual as to whether they accept payment in a different form than legal tender (that is the standard currency of the country). So we accept cheques, bank transfers and even, sometimes, Scottish money.
But formally I can't refuse to be paid in physical money that is legal tender (see last link, but I can refuse payment in some other currency (eg Dollars) or another recognised legal currency like the Sottish Pound.
All that being said, it seems to be, for practical purposes, that Scotland is actually currently sharing the pound.The pound is underwritten by UK Government guarantees at least to the extent of protecting saving of individuals up to a certain amount (£85,000) per each separate bank but also de facto as a protection against failure of the bank and its consequent huge impact on people and industry. The rescue of Lloyd's Bank and the Royal Bank of Scotland (both registered in Scotland) is an example of this currency union in action.
That protection is both the reason why the SNP so desperately want to have the currency Union, to cushion their dodgy financial plans, and a prime reason why the UK is not going to grant it. It is also a reason why, if the "Yes" vote were to win the day, Banks and Insurance Companies in Scotland will flee south of the border to gain credible security and be closer to the main body of their customers. People are well aware of that and I for one have already lined up an English-based Bank "just in case". At present I don't think it will be needed.
As for the remark about "dependencies - that's a slight to Scotland and therefore also a slight to Britain.
No doubt you have looked at the internet for a definition of legal tender, as I have...
No, I didn't. I have served as the editor of the ECB monthly bulletin at the central bank of my own member country, which meant arranging and supervising the hasty translation process of the thing from euro-English to the local vernacular. The original language was specifically euro-English, with strictly controlled terminological and phraseological peculiarities that set it apart from UK English.
Actually, I'm not sure if it's the continental variety of English or the UK variety that forcefully tends to set itself apart, but my solid impression from this work is that there are differences in the respective usage, and in England the meanings tend to be fluid, either unruly or specifically tuned so as to be at odds with the continental terminology, so it seems. English on the continent is administratively steered to be a unifying factor, whereas UK likes to artificially distinguish itself. Your talk about Scotland sharing the pound and the Government guaranteeing and protecting it, where sharing, guaranteeing, and protecting seem to have peculiar ad hoc meanings, firmly reminds me of this impression.
You're probably right about their being an ad hoc nature of English used in the UK, also about it being fluid and possibly unruly as is common, I suspect, with any living language. I suppose I should mention that the definition of "legal Tender" I quoted was from an American source.
But you're not right about there being specifically tuned so as to be at odds with continental terminology. Apart from pre-dating the concept of "Continental English" (if that exists at all as a European wide phenomenon) the Brits have hardly had such things on their minds during the evolution of the language. Nothing artificial about that other than normal human behaviour.
Regarding Scottish banknote issues. When I was young there were places in England where they treated a Scots note as if foreign and in the pre-decimal time as worth nineteen and six pence and Jewish people get a snigger at being tight? In other places they looked at the things as if alien even thoug it said 'pind sterling'. Imknow all about the legal tender stuff but having travelled to and from Scotland and Belfast for years I had no problem using Scots bank notes there and again when i had an odd Ulster or Northern banknotes used them here. Why the English folk seen the need to be so iffy only helps those damn Nationalists.
As for the Referendum you would hardly think it was happening as there is no chatter about it except on television where they keep hitting us with stuff that is repeated and repeated to the point of a long sigh. In personal conversations with people I know one can open up a chat especially as I have a goodly supply of those large jacket sticker badges saying "NAW". On Monday I went into the city centre to the Grand Lodge HQ and got another pile of sticker sheets asI have been asked for them.
We did have an interesting "competition" as the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn was re-enacted on the field near Stirling Castle and town. Now late me say as a staunch Scottish Unionist that it was a brilliant route by us against an army much bigger and truly exceptional. However the organisers had to take over from the chairy running the event due to lack of ticket sales and they also had to cut the days from 3 to 2. It was being suggested the nationalists were hying it although no political material weas allowed. However on one tv channel the couple of people interviewed were Yes inclined. Then the SNP started a passing moan because in Stirling there was a massive military presence with the salute taken by HRH Princess Ann. It was vastly attended and children give both Union and Saltire flags. That was Armed Forces Day by the way.
I have already stated that Salmond lied as per usual and on the matter of Scots not getting the government they voted for. In my explanation I contradicted the SNP by confiriming that 9 times when Scotland voted Labour since the War and on 2 occasions the Conservative & Unionists. Now here is another interested bit of figures.
At the last General Election
At the last General Election the SNP polled 490,000 and they like to boast about their total but note this 880,000 voted for the Tories and Liberal Democrats. And with all the hype and sneering at the Scots Tories that Party itself took 413,000 votes! I don't have the figures for Labour but they will also be large. The Nationalists always sneer at the Conservative Party yet ignore the number of Scots who vote for them. Now just think on those figures and muse on the Scottish Government Elections on a non- first past the vote system. Are they trying to rant that the Cons are not broad based and there are over 400,00 toffs like the PM here?? There is a consistency I will admit with the Nationalists in that they lie, ignore and sneer with the bullying mouth at the top aided by his always adoring lloks from his No 2 that annoying Nicola Sturgeon?
Salmond says that on a NO vote he wil continue as SNP Leader well that should stop him from crying when the results come in!
"NAW"
But you're not right about there being specifically tuned so as to be at odds with continental terminology. Apart from pre-dating the concept of "Continental English" (if that exists at all as a European wide phenomenon) the Brits have hardly had such things on their minds during the evolution of the language. Nothing artificial about that other than normal human behaviour.
But I was right in silently assuming that the issue would look the opposite from our respective opposite ends :)
You speak as if you own English language, but to me English is not really a language. English is lingua franca. It belongs to everybody and everybody is, fortunately or unfortunately, free to twist it for their own twisted needs. English as used in EU administrative structures certainly takes odd shapes at times, and even more so as used by the wider population, but there's nothing that lingua franca (a language whose foreign speakers outnumber native speakers) can do about it.
Small languages are properly languages: Tribal or regional or national code that keeps outsiders outside, when internal matters are being handled.
But I was right in silently assuming that the issue would look the opposite from our respective opposite ends :)
You speak as if you own English language, but to me English is not really a language. English is lingua franca. It belongs to everybody and everybody is, fortunately or unfortunately, free to twist it for their own twisted needs. English as used in EU administrative structures certainly takes odd shapes at times, and even more so as used by the wider population, but there's nothing that lingua franca (a language whose foreign speakers outnumber native speakers) can do about it.
Small languages are properly languages: Tribal or regional or national code that keeps outsiders outside, when internal matters are being handled.
Oh come on, ersi, you know better than that! Only a dead language is static, not changing as its speakers come into contact with new things or new cultures or even develop new words. I think we need some qualifiers to go with the word "language".
Forgive me, I forget where you hale from - is it Estonia? Somewhere Baltic I think. If that's the case then maybe there are some of your native words words that have crept into English for adoption and vice versa. Welcome to them.
I worked for 30 years in a European Organisation where English was used a lot. There were English words which assumed their own meaning and of course an English person not exposed to that culture would not have known exactly what was meant. Notable were US words which drifted through and got used. Normal stuff I think and not something to get excited about, at least not as far as I'm concerned.
I think I speak a proper language and I expect you do too! :)
I will be joining over 8,000 other Scottish unionists marching in our annual parade and thousands of supporters watching. As for Salmond and his female deputy who gazes at him like a pop fan, I don't even listen to them on television as I gave up listening to fairy tales when a wee laddie. Shame they didn't grow up.
This will make Salmond take from the hills to avoid this Highlander!
#Highlander give amazing (but slightly scary) speech on Question Time as Scottish independence referendum draws closer (http://metro.co.uk/2014/07/12/highlander-give-amazing-but-slightly-scary-speech-on-question-time-as-scottish-independence-referendum-draws-closer-4795496/)
Hope you aren't miscalling me there string as I am a lowlander and have well established that on forums in the past! Too many of my fellow Scots have been brainwashed into what is effectively a nosnense over Scottishness. Big money was spent on putting in Galeic names alongside the English ones.They think Gaelic is out real national language and the kilt the national dress. Both are a load of old cobblers. Kilts were never in the majority and were for the wild Highlanders who used to come down to the Lowlands and steel catle and sheep, etc. In fact if there was to be a more realistic national dress ot would be the dark jerkin of the Lowlander, knee breeches with long socks, brogues and if wearing a hat then atammy. Naby blue and hodden grey would be the majority colour. Gaelic was never all over Scotland either.
Now the BBC spends large sums on a Gaelic tv channel whilst the language continues to decline up north. Down here we have a Gaeloc Primary and Secondary School to encourage those wishing to learn the lingo. These two schools in Glasgow will never be over subscribed and Gaelic is a difficult language. Don't mind people wanting to retain a heritage but i do get miffed at my fellow Scots falling for this cobblers about national dress and language. For now the union Flag of Gt Britain will continue to fly from my upstairs front bedroom window until September(did put up some pennants on the driveway at the garage just for one day on the 5th July!)
Proud to be Scots - proud to be British.
Hope you aren't miscalling me there string as I am a lowlander ...
I don't understand you rjh, the video in that link was taken from the "Any Questions" Programme on the BBC. The "Highlander" declared himself as such. He made two little speeches, both somewhat similar.
I was not referring to you (unless it was you of course! :) )
Ha ha, wasn't me but I staunchly British and Sottish too! :lol:
I see that the British Government is dangling a Spaceport in front of Scotland.
Scotland could be base for spaceport, says UK government (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28276525)
It's not clear to me who the customers would be for this Spaceport - at the moment it seems to be aimed at the Virgin Galactic, the "Spaceplane" that will be sent to a height of around 110km. As for real space missions things are clearly still decided unless the "power that be" know a lot more than they're letting on.
As a commercial venture it may or may not work, it depends really on who the actual customers might be; the cosy kudos of having something as grand as ones very own "Spaceport" does not do it for me - there have to be paying customers.
Clearly Virgin Galactic are likely to attract some people with more money than most and there could be a significant tourist spin-off.
Well OK - I'm not yet convinced but willing to become so. Whatever brings in the dosh I guess.
But at any rate the political message re Scotland is clear - vote "No" and look what you might get, vote "Yes" and it will be south of the border.
Spaceport? That reminds me of this video I saw a few days ago.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Snph22qSUMU[/video]
Well I would be prepared to be reasonable and let Alex Salmond and his infatuated deputy, Nicola Sturegon be volunteers for a space rocket. If they didn't get back i would ackowledge their space efforts. :happy:
I'm inclined to agree, rjh.
But tell me - what's your assessment of the situation now;
Will Scotland go for broke?
It's a difficult thing to assess string as most seem to act like any general election and keep quite. I have a union Flag on an upstairs bedroom sticking out the front of the house. There are few Saltires here and ther and the Yes lot were up around 4% recently. Kind of contradicts the debate on tv between that snide smart alec Salmond and darling who was brilliant. Salmond didn't know what face to put on. He gets away with his bullying and sneering at the Scottish Parliament but this was very much different and he later had to admit on the currency he was on the back burner so to speak.
However on a more practical basis there are some interesting things regarding the No Campaign. The Unionists side has had to publicly intimate they cannot take any more donations for the campaign re Scotland staying in the Union as they have reached the legal limit (!). Doctors in the National Health Service in a survey over 61% are against independence and the polls at University level on the young voters show a distinct No support. When I tackle the ordinary person in the street kind of think it is a case of them repeating what Salmond says but when I press ontaxes, pensions, costs of embassies, currency and much more thae are unsettled. It was the height of nonsenses for the UK Government to allow 16 and 17's to vote in the referendum when they cannot do so in city or national elctions, etc. Salmond thought he would stitch up the more radical views of the young. However as I said earlier all the Secondary school puils in every one in Salmond's northeast corner of Scotland did a mock Referendum and they voted "NO." Wel except the Special School. Last week Jim Sillars that in your face nationalist with very leftist mindset toured in a multi-coloured van with his late wife's picture emblazoned on it (Margo McDonald). When he drove in the west of Glasgow where I live he was chased down the street near a school by Secondary School teenagers shouting "Naw."
Having been socked on not having any Plan B because the UK won't allow a shared currecny, Salmond and the Nationalists are screaming out that the NHS will be a criteria now. That is obviously because of the financial questions. He has been shouting about the NHS in England & Wales "getting privatised." This is keech (to use a good ole Scots word) as patients are not charged where the NHS uses the Private corner. However I can tell you a very revealing thing. The NHS in DScotland is solely under the control of the Scots Government in Edinburgh so he is misusing the health matter. On top of that over the period of the SNP Government they have spent a billion pounds on using the private sector themselves!
My one distracted puzzlement is why the polls are close but my view is that Scotland will vote no. A well known and independent professor on economics (appears on tv a lot and highly regarded) has stated that the Yes Campaign is making a grave mistake thinking it is going to harbour the "don't know" lot. That the SNP is trying to lie on things like the national Health Service and much else will be an important factor and on the second and final debate to be held on the BBC will be a great added boost to the Unionists Nationalist have become unstuck on the young vote and older people who are more inclined to vote will not want to jump into the unknown. Whatever there vote is they will not overtake the NO campaignSo I sate here that Scotland will still be in the United Kingdom of Gt Britain & N. Ireland
Well I hope you are right about the last remark. The SNP/Yes Campaign has done little but make false claims bout the future Scottish Economy should Scotland separate and ferment bad relations between us. They are doing great harm. Already there are signs that the Scottish Financial Sector, a source of wealth in Scotland, is thinking of leaving, perhaps as early as the day after the Referendum and even before, and their predictions of oil wealth for ever is sadly in conflict with reality.
The No campaign has done little but make false claims about the future Scottish Economy should Scotland separate
Fixed that for you. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BigGrin.gif)
Guess it depends on which side you get your propaganda from. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink.gif)
An independent Scotland shouldn’t adopt the euro but the Norwegian krone (http://qz.com/223033/an-independent-scotland-shouldnt-adopt-the-euro-but-the-norwegian-krone/)
The logic behind this point is that oil changes the economic cycle of a country. The easiest way to think about this is to reflect on the effect of the oil price. If the oil price is high, a country that heavily relies on oil production does well and non-producers tend to do less well, because they are paying higher prices for their fuel. When oil prices are low, this reverses.
Anyone who had a passing interest in the eurozone crisis will know that the problems between the Mediterranean periphery countries and their northern neighbors were partly caused by the fact that they needed different levels of interest rates to suit their economies. An independent Scotland would suffer a similar fate, albeit for different reasons. The more that oil dominates an economy, the less well suited it is to European integration.
Assuming the guy's right, and it sounds at the very least plausible that one size doesn't fit all, how does the US deal with this?
Same way as the EU will, supposedly, effectively by migration. As American states don't have their own currencies, a countercyclical state can't float their currencies, tax income and services suffer, unemployment will rise and the unemployed will have to move, and the uncompetitive businesses close. Come better times people might move back in again.
In the EU the population in the Scandinavian countries is ballooning, while the neighbouring Baltic states have their population falling.
An independent Scotland shouldn’t adopt the euro but the Norwegian krone (http://qz.com/223033/an-independent-scotland-shouldnt-adopt-the-euro-but-the-norwegian-krone/)
I see, now they're are turning Norwegians... is there any chance of just being Scotland? nope, it doesn't seems so...
Some people just needs to be under other's domination.
Same way as the EU will, supposedly, effectively by migration. As American states don't have their own currencies, a countercyclical state can't float their currencies, tax income and services suffer, unemployment will rise and the unemployed will have to move, and the uncompetitive businesses close. Come better times people might move back in again.
Right, and in the US we think of moving from New York to Chicago as about equally remarkable as moving from Hamburg to Düsseldorf, while somehow moving to *gasp* Copenhagen or *double gasp* Amsterdam would be a big move to a whole different country, but in practice the same phenomenon might occur even within a country as small as Luxembourg.
It almost makes you wonder if they had the right idea in medieval times, with each city minting its own currency. ;)
Right there string and I do trust myself that I am right too!
I will be in Edinburgh early September for a big Unionist rally. The last one we held a year or so back actually outnumbered the SNP one in more recent times. Maybe that is why they dropped the idea of having another?! Now they are boasting that they reached their target of a million contacts for "Yes." However that took them a crawling 3 years and is essentially their core vote which is 25% of the voting population. Lie anything else that proves little as turnout at polling stations is what counts. There are young people who as expected will vote yes but it will not be in what Salmond thinks as a support. I have well intimated here the reaction in universities, medical service, senior pupils in Secondary Schools and as said business. Now the Nationalists are trying to flannel on the oil income. Kind of odd that one as they have totally ignored the commission they got to investigate oil and it has reported a continuing decline!
Now here is another oddity string. Salmond in a recent interview said he would be happy to disband the SNP on a Yes victory. Kind of brilliant one that eh? Means their Brigadoon lot would then have to revert back to the former Westminster parties such as Labour, Conservative and Liberal Democrats! Odd kind of thinking that one. The Nationalists keep harping on about being stuck with a Tory Government and he needs reminding that many got stuck with his lot who didn't vote for them! He sneers at the Tories yet they actually polled 410,000 at the last General Election in Scotland and their vote is more spread. So is he rubbishing hundreds of thousands of Scots? Add the Labour who had a larger vote and in 4th place the Liberal Democrats. Together they all dominate SNP votes.
Meantime my Union Flag flies from out the upstairs window. Will now order a flagpole for the back garden and my selection of flags are all ready. Union one, Imperial Russia, Confederate battle flag for the different commemoration dates. For now I continue my campaign, dishing out stickers, leafet groups and anything to support the Better Together slot with my English, Welsh and Ulster Unionists. Give in, me? Nae chance and I finish my stance by quoting Lord Carson n the old Irish Crisis 1914....NOT AN INCH!"
Proud to be Scots - proud to be British.
RJHowie, I worry about you. Union flag, Imperial Russia and Confederate battle flags, eh?
You DO know that Imperial Russia ceased to exist for all practical purposes in 1917 or thereabouts, don't you? Died in a revolution, or so I'm told in history books.
The Confederacy didn't even fare that well, having died barely 5 years into what there was of its existence.
That's 2 losing causes there. Of course there is the occasional rumble of the South rising again, but the Confederacy seems to be a historic footnote.
In the next month, you're gonna be voting on whether the Union flag will still be the recognized flag of Scotland as well as the rest of the UK. The vote looks like it might be close either way as I see it right now. If it goes the other way, you'll have to figure out how to change your tune a little since railing at us ex-colonists wouldn't play so well when you become one of us. :yikes: It also would give you the problem of having three losing flags hanging outside your window instead of the two you already mentioned. It goes without saying that the Union flag will have to be changed somewhat in the event of Scottish Independence, since the Saltire will no longer be officially part of it.
Flags will be the least of it though. Setting up a new nation isn't as easy as it looks and being independent makes it harder since you now have to come up with your own version of all the stuff your parent nation used to supply. This is gonna be interesting to watch I think.
Well now as someone who has always had a great interest in history you are talking to the right man dear Chicagoan.
Prior to the forst Revolution of 1917 no less a person than your own President was recorded as supporting the last Emperor in the relaxation of many things like a free press, extension of political parties and the gradual move to try and improve the life of the general population. Bet you didn't know that one, eh? Then in the second Revolution by the Communists what did we find? This led to a Civil War between the Whites and the Reds and Gt Britain, America and the Japanese were amongst allied troops sent there to back up the Whites. With the US hating Reds to the core it was a tad disgusting that behind the scenes the US was having secret meetings with the Communists on commerce, money, etc. All not know by their Allies. So when your Red pals took over law and justice ceased.
Indeed pre 1917 the Bar was independent of the State and people could not just be dealt with willy-nilly by the police. Warrants had tobe issued and even the much moaned at Political police (loosely known as the Secret Police) was a tiny organisation but they too couldn't just grab someone but had to get a warrant through th system then take ordinary police to arrest you. Time after time there were cases in the independent system that decided 2not guity" and released people. That didn't happen after your pals came in. Instead taken in the middle of the jight and shot.
As for the American Civil War that was not a neat and dusty as you would like to portray.
In the South there were still much of the old early colonial and traditions whereas in the North it was increasingly obvious due to thewide level of behind the scenes corruption that it was the business men who were in control. Slaves were brought in via Northern ports to be sold - aye great principles at work there from the majority of the country too -- eh again?! In the past, I have detailed that Lincoln was a iar and two-faced man. He was determined for all the public stuff that Negroes would not get what they wanted. in dinner parties and private meetings his real opinions came out didn't they? On the wider political scene the idea that States would want to leave a country that looked down it's nose at them was horrifying! You should have just let them go peacefully but that was never going to be an option. Not surprising then that such an army head as the Christian and decent man General Robert E. Lee should feel obliged to leave the US Army and take up with the South. Even though the had concerns there was a highly respected, decent and good man feeling the US was not doing things right. Oh, and on a lighter note with so many over the Mason-Dixon who had Scots decent it is not surprise that the CSA battle flag took a saltire based shape!
So marking the end of reason and the shameful aftermath is worth it and the way the South was treated by a nation that in itself was hypocritical. Remembering the fall of a a free press, political freedom and progress in pre-1917 Imperial Russia is worth it historically too. What is pleasing by the way is that ceremonial uniforms in the Russian Army, Ceremonial Cavalry are all Imperial again. The striped national flag was the one up to 1917. The emblems of State with the double-headed eagle and other Royal things is the Imperial Coat of Arms. So today's Russia after the thankful destruction of the Bolshies looks back at a time they remember fondly and proudly. Elections, political parties, the Orthodox back where it was emphasises such. Just a pity with your record it is a bit more concerning.
So my friend my national flag will go up in May for Her Majesty's Birthday Holiday, the 12th July for the Battle of the Boyne and my orange heritage. Will muse on grey when i mark Fort Sumpter and the greatness of Imperial Russia and the horrible execution of 5 youngsters along with their famil;y and servants by a load of scumbags that the US was gleefully doing business with behind the scenes.
Principles my dear boy, principles. The word has been spoiled over the pond!
:knight: :P :king: :D
For Mr. Howie:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3IJ05QntXQ[/video]
On another note, as Jax has noted, I too am paying quite a bit of attention to the currency debate, as the YES campaign, inexplicably, seems to have gained in popularity after Darling and Salmond's debate. How does one lose a debate, and gain popularity?
The Adam Smith Institute has issued a report called "Quids Up" that suggests using the Pound even without London's permission. Much like Panama uses our Dollar for their national currency. It's both brilliant and also naive though, in my opinion. Brilliant in the fact that those most damnable institutions called Central Banks are eliminated (PRAISE BE!) and also, there is no lender of last resort, so no bailouts (AGAIN, PRAISE BE!). I make no bones about it, I am of the Austrian school of thought in that regard, and that would be awesome. Yet, it's naive in that Scotland would be totally screwed in any number of circumstances and, as is currently the case, would be again subservient to the (r)UK and that poncy little twit from Eton, which would make redundant going independent. The report can be viewed here: http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-banking/an-independent-scotland-should-use-the-pound-without-permission-from-ruk/ (http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/money-banking/an-independent-scotland-should-use-the-pound-without-permission-from-ruk/)
I do look forward to seeing how this evening's debate went. Of great interest to me is immigration. London wishes that Scotland would agree to the same immigration terms that they have with Ireland. Salmond apparently has been voicing the wish for a more liberal immigration policy, as Scotland will need young people to pay for people like Mr. Howie's pension.
Finally, gods help us all, as Mr. Howie has now found out how to bolden the text on here. :faint: (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sectalk.com%2Fboard%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Ftrollface.gif&hash=665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" rel="cached" data-hash="665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.sectalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/trollface.gif)
Here is part of a verse from the great Scottish poet, Major Burns.
"Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie".
It celebrates the poet's first sight of a haggis. When Scotland votes to separate from the U.K he will be charged with the task of writing their constitution.
The first debate between that sleekit Alex Salmond and the former Chanchellor of the Exchquer, Alastair Darling was a resounding win for Darling and the NO Campaign. We will of course be going over the same stuff again on the BBC as STV did. Now Salmond is lying about the NHS as he cannot solve the currency issue. Salmond also wants more immigrants but that doesn't mean they will all be workers. Neither is immigration some wonderful addition to Scots either. As for London, I visted it once years ago when it was an English city but now pale faces are the minority as in Birmingham the second city and other places.
Now in pops tt92 with a usual American's ignorance of elswhere if they don't have an atlas. Robert Burns (bet he didn't know he had been made a Major without knowing it) and out national poet. May I inform you dear limited ex-colonist that Burns worked for the British Government as a Royal Customs Officer! Maybe if America was to play the mouse the world would be a much safer place.
Meanwhile I still amass the paper hankies for the Yes lot of snidies as they will need them the day after the referendum. Oh and you lot over there might learn something even if Scotland (unlikely) voted Yes. Here it would be peaceful you lot wrecked 13 States that weren't happy being sidelined.
Yours,
Loyal subject, proud to be Scots, proud to be British.
ps. No Surrender! :knight: :king:
Alastair Darling was a resounding win for Darling and the NO Campaign
Really? What debate were you watching, he never answered a single question put to him.
We will of course be going over the same stuff again on the BBC as STV did.
Finally we agree on something. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
Now Salmond is lying about the NHS
No he's not. We all know that the NHS is devolved in Scotland, but Westminster holds the purse strings, They are privatising chunks of the NHS in England which will mean less money for the NHS in Scotland. Just ask a Labour politician. Oh wait they say one thing in England and tell us the opposite here in Scotland. Now that's what you call lying. Stop believing what you read in The Daily Record or other unionist rag you read.
he cannot solve the currency issue
How many times does he have to say we will be using the pound, before it penetrates some thick skulls?
Salmond also wants more immigrants but that doesn't mean they will all be workers.
You're not expecting their children to work are you? (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
ps. No Surrender!
What a riddy. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/FacePalm2.gif) It's the 21st century, do try to drag yourself into it.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/CapWave.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/popcorn.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/clapping.gif) [glow=blue,2,300]More, More, More!!! [/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/clapping.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/popcorn.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/CapWave.gif)
[glow=green,2,300] Yayyyyyyy Luxor!![/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Boxers02.gif)
I don't mind you playing the thicko Luxor but it is tedious!
Salmond tonight when questioned on the currency danced again rather than answer the question. He blethered about asking the Scottish people AFTER a Yes vote! He did in fairness do better than his first debate with Darling but you must watch foreign media because that first session was recorded as Salmond on the back foot. As for the National Health Service what do you not understand about straightforward English. The Scottish Government is responsible for spending the NHS matter here and the same SNP government HAS used the private sector although you choose to ignore this. I don't really car a proverbial monkey if the NHS uses any private service as we will not be charged for it as individuals. Another dancing act on that score.
And anyway in a separate Scotland wanting to be still linked to the Bank of England is in simple terms, absurd. An independent nation but having to work within what a foreign government next door decides are your rates. You do a nice dance there too. For to dismiss Darling completely is another absurdity. It is all pie in the sky with you lot. Do put your bagpipes down and note reality rather than the rather impulsive tendency just to ignore what is opposite to you or like Salmond who is a snidy, sleekit and devious man. How about explaining my points about Salmond lying about Scotland never getting a government it has voted for? I listed that since WW2 some 8 times the majority voted Labour and what do you know a Labour Government at Westminster. In the fifties twice Scotland voted Tory and there was a Tory Government. At the last General Election even the Tories whom he sneers at polled 410,000 votes in Scotland so if they are all traitors we have one Hell of a lot of them. Throw in the bigger Labour vote and the LibDems and tells you something.
Generally speaking it has been a peaceful campaign apart from broadband disgraces. When this was last raised here you chirped in that the Unionist side did it too. However this all started due to an onslaught from the nationalist side and they held the numbers game in that one. Not saying the SNP encouraged it but there are plenty of tartan nutjobs.
So nice to see you were provoked enough to come back but then it must be damn frustrating that you know you will not catch up. Think of the towns even where you had a slight majority of Councillors but the same Councils formed alliances to keep you out! Oh and here in Glasgow you were going to storm into the city Chambers and thought you were the wee boys when there was a split in the routine majority party. Many in my corner helped to keep you out.Oh dear, all those great announcements you were going to dominate Glasgow. Nae chance sonny. I will feel for your disappointment but hope you don't mind but i won't be losing any sleep over you. Now must plan my victory holiday break right after the Referendum..... :lol: :yes:
I don't mind you playing the thicko Luxor but it is tedious!
Salmond tonight when questioned on the currency danced again rather than answer the question. He blethered about asking the Scottish people AFTER a Yes vote! He did in fairness do better than his first debate with Darling but you must watch foreign media because that first session was recorded as Salmond on the back foot. As for the National Health Service what do you not understand about straightforward English. The Scottish Government is responsible for spending the NHS matter here and the same SNP government HAS used the private sector although you choose to ignore this. I don't really car a proverbial monkey if the NHS uses any private service as we will not be charged for it as individuals. Another dancing act on that score.
And anyway in a separate Scotland wanting to be still linked to the Bank of England is in simple terms, absurd. An independent nation but having to work within what a foreign government next door decides are your rates. You do a nice dance there too. For to dismiss Darling completely is another absurdity. It is all pie in the sky with you lot. Do put your bagpipes down and note reality rather than the rather impulsive tendency just to ignore what is opposite to you or like Salmond who is a snidy, sleekit and devious man. How about explaining my points about Salmond lying about Scotland never getting a government it has voted for? I listed that since WW2 some 8 times the majority voted Labour and what do you know a Labour Government at Westminster. In the fifties twice Scotland voted Tory and there was a Tory Government. At the last General Election even the Tories whom he sneers at polled 410,000 votes in Scotland so if they are all traitors we have one Hell of a lot of them. Throw in the bigger Labour vote and the LibDems and tells you something.
Generally speaking it has been a peaceful campaign apart from broadband disgraces. When this was last raised here you chirped in that the Unionist side did it too. However this all started due to an onslaught from the nationalist side and they held the numbers game in that one. Not saying the SNP encouraged it but there are plenty of tartan nutjobs.
So nice to see you were provoked enough to come back but then it must be damn frustrating that you know you will not catch up. Think of the towns even where you had a slight majority of Councillors but the same Councils formed alliances to keep you out! Oh and here in Glasgow you were going to storm into the city Chambers and thought you were the wee boys when there was a split in the routine majority party. Many in my corner helped to keep you out.Oh dear, all those great announcements you were going to dominate Glasgow. Nae chance sonny. I will feel for your disappointment but hope you don't mind but i won't be losing any sleep over you. Now must plan my victory holiday break right after the Referendum..... :lol: :yes:
ps. You now have that fanatical rightist neo-con, Smiley on your side. How worse can it get for you Brigadoons?!
And anyway in a separate Scotland wanting to be still linked to the Bank of England is[,] in simple terms, absurd. An independent nation but having to work within what a foreign government next door decides are your rates […]
So, you
do understand why the Euro is bound to fail? :)
(Cannae ye naught but merdere English?)
Alastair Darling was a resounding win for Darling and the NO Campaign
Really? What debate were you watching, he never answered a single question put to him.
We will of course be going over the same stuff again on the BBC as STV did.
Finally we agree on something. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
Now Salmond is lying about the NHS
No he's not. We all know that the NHS is devolved in Scotland, but Westminster holds the purse strings, They are privatising chunks of the NHS in England which will mean less money for the NHS in Scotland. Just ask a Labour politician. Oh wait they say one thing in England and tell us the opposite here in Scotland. Now that's what you call lying. Stop believing what you read in The Daily Record or other unionist rag you read.
he cannot solve the currency issue
How many times does he have to say we will be using the pound, before it penetrates some thick skulls?
Salmond also wants more immigrants but that doesn't mean they will all be workers.
You're not expecting their children to work are you? (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
ps. No Surrender!
What a riddy. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/FacePalm2.gif) It's the 21st century, do try to drag yourself into it.
Why? This is the century I live in. What possible purpose could rj serve here? Let me stay in my century and he in his and never the twain need meet.
I also watched the debate, all of it.
As far as I understand there was a poll afterwards and about 70% of the people said that Salmond had won it.
There was also another poll which showed that no-one had changed their mind as a result.
I know the arguments on both sides well enough by now so could gather roughly what they were talking about but there was so much over-talking that it was impossible at times to tell what was being said. Salmond was definitely the champion over-talker though.
The question of the Scottish currency remains a problem, but Salmond mislead the Scottish voters. I will explain.
First I should say that Luxor is probably right about Scotland having to use the pound in the event that the “Yes” vote won, but the matter is rather convoluted, so bear with me.
The SNP/Yes campaign doggedly maintains that a Currency Union will be agreed with the UK in spite of all three political parties saying it is a no-starter. There are many reasons for the latter, one major one being the additional risk to the UK due to the statements in the so-called "SNP White Paper" (it's an SNP manifesto (Paid for by the Scottish Taxpayer) which is used to sell the SNP vision of a separated Scotland) which declares that Scotland would have a Currency Union with the UK.
The "options/choices" are given in Currency Choices for an Independent Scotland (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00419554.pdf), subdivided into groups headed "Set Up New Currency" and "Monetary Union with the UK". For the latter, there are two options, "Formal" and "Informal (i.e. Sterlingisation)"; the former choice is a currency union, the latter not a union at all, Scotland would just use the pound but in Sterlingisation mode.
The SNP assumes for the former choice; "BoE undertakes monetary policy for Sterling Area (i.e. interest rates determined by conditions in Scotland and rUK)" and also "Full fiscal autonomy – alongside other economic levers (e.g. regulation)" amongst other implausible claims. These powers are clearly not remotely possible. Foreign countries do not set their interest rates according to the whims of foreign countries 1/10th their size nor do they permit such a foreign country full fiscal autonomy. There is also the implicit assumption that the Bank of England would act as a lender of last resort, an arrangement where the UK would carry a large risk of default and Scotland would have no control over monetary policy. So no Currency Union.
So that leaves the use of the Pound in a Sterlingisation mode. This is certainly possible although it cannot be called a Monetary Union and, again, Scotland would have no control over monetary policy in spite of the SNP claim that it would have, again, “full fiscal autonomy”. But it could be done, with it’s attendant lack of monetary control for Scotland. However the UK would no longer be the lender of last resort; not a attractive prospect for business or, in particular, Scotland’s large financial sector which is already showing signs of leaving Scotland in the event of a “Yes” vote.
The other options, under the banner “Set up new currency”, are apparently not available to the SNP without a new Scottish Election. The SNP states (my underline);
“Of course some would prefer Scotland to become a republic, to leave the EU or NATO, or to have our own currency. After Scotland becomes independent, any political party seeking to make these kinds of changes would first have to win support to do so in an election.”.
https://www.snp.org/sites/default/files/issue/documents/yes_-_choice.pdf (https://www.snp.org/sites/default/files/issue/documents/yes_-_choice.pdf) bottom of page X
So this option is not open to the SNP to propose, but they are pretending it is an option.
These things have to be resolved before March 2016 and the lack of any clear decision now is potentially very damaging to the Scottish Economy. It seems that the only real option (with its own downsides) is to have a new currency in place by Independence but since this would need an election followed by a large effort to set up the different institutions. (*) I doubt if the SNP could stomach that because it is by no means certain that they would win re-election.
So when Salmond stated that he had 3 Plan Bs for the price of 1, he was grossly misleading. He knows full well that the only option he will eventually offer is Sterlingisation, not a currency or monetary union nor a new currency, but use of another countries currency without a lender of last resort.
(*) rjh please note that and pass it on - I doubt many have noticed that.
Oh and here in Glasgow you were going to storm into the city Chambers
Was I? Christ! I know my memory isn't what it used to be, but I would have thought that I would remember that, I can't even remember getting on the bus. Best check my diary, maybe I made a note of it in there. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ReadBook3.gif) Nope nothing in there. Or do you mean that the SNP were going to do that? Why should I care, I'm not in the SNP. Said it before and I'll say it again. Voting for independence is not a vote for the SNP. But your so blinded by your hatred of the SNP you can't see that.
How worse can it get for you Brigadoon
Brigadoon only exists in your head I fear. At least something goes on in there. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Whistle.gif)
I know the arguments on both sides well enough by now so could gather roughly what they were talking about but there was so much over-talking that it was impossible at times to tell what was being said. Salmond was definitely the champion over-talker though.
It could have done with a better presenter that's for sure. He just let them shout at each other when he should have intervened.
Currency unions tend to be short-lived. A UK union would be the sensible short-term option, but longer-term a Scottish currency would likely be a more sensible option, better than joining £ or € (or the Norwegian kroner for that matter, but The North European Petrodollar is a scheme that wouldn't happen in real life). Much smaller economies than the Scottish have managed that just fine.
Currency unions tend to be short-lived. A UK union would be the sensible short-term option, but longer-term a Scottish currency would likely be a more sensible option, better than joining £ or € (or the Norwegian kroner for that matter, but The North European Petrodollar is a scheme that wouldn't happen in real life). Much smaller economies than the Scottish have managed that just fine.
There is so much that has been written about a potential Scottish/UK currency union, but I won't bore you with a multitude of links. Suffice it to say that, as a general rule;
o A monetary Union will only work if it is perceived to be committed to by all parties and is long term/permanent
o A monetary union only works with fiscal integration (ref the EURO Countries)[/li][/list]
There is no knowing how long the Scots would want the Currency Union to last, so it would not last.
In the case of Scotland and the UK
o The UK would stand large risks which would not be reciprocated by Scotland who would not be contributing (no insurance payments in other words)
o Scotland would have no say over interest rates and liquidity and would have no monetary weapons in the event of a change in oil prices
o Scotland would have to accept the UK's control over its own budget and expenditure (as per the Euro)
Remember that Scotland is only about a 10th of the size of the UK.
Now just look at that very direct keech from Luxor who avoids the point and falls back on, well nothing. His mob went about before the last Council Elections gleefully stating they were going to take over Scotlabd's biggest Council. They tried to use the temporary small split in the labour adminstration.There was to be no problem taking the city said the cock-a-hoop nationalists. If Luxor didn't know that he is either brainless or retreats to smart arse rhetoric. Instead the Nationalisst failed and some of us were involved in making sure of that one. The hit back was spread across the country as I correctly did point out before that in Councils all sorts of coalitions were formed between labour, Tory, LibDems to keep your Brigadoon mindsets out and it was frustrating for the poor Salmondites. As for the NHS costs, again what Luxor does is spout Nationalist propganda in a two-sided, obvious debate. He also totally ignores that the SNP Government DID use Private Health and I have no problem with the NHS doing that in england, Scotland, Wales, Ulster as it still does not effect the patient at all. So Salmond did lie mouthing of what the NHS did in England when the same NHS up here in his control did the same thing!
Nice of tt92 to put his twopence worth in and try to dismiss me with my satorical cry of 'No surrender.' On this occasion it was on the matter of not giving into the rampant, over emotional rubbish from nationalist. Kif of hypocritical anyway of him commenting when you consider the level of nationalism in the ex-colonies and people still arguing over a bit of paper cobbled together in the 19th century.
String has a definite point on economy. Now Salmond includes a wide choice of currency matters including Scotland voting on which one in a Yes situation. He cannot compete with the main fact that keeping Scotland connected to the Bank of England would leave an independent county unable to plan properly with a foreign country deciding your rates, etc. As for lurking behind the SNP is a keeping mum republican element. For all Salmond's front regarding the system and Head of State he fine well knows there is a strong republican bent in the SNP. However they are being two-faced and keeping their mouths shut during the Referendum Campaign as they know only too well votes would be lost by coming out. Now that is a damnable hypocrisy for a lot who claim the moral high ground and principled politics.
We need no lessons from across the pond where trying to break leads to war. Neither is it a democracy in the meaning of the word. For the most part day to day the campaign has been reasonable (we can leave the internet nutters in their corner as a minorty). What I would say is the tev commentators talk a load of old midden saying it is being talked about everywhere. No it isn't and people act just as they do in a General election and keep generally zipped. It is the same with all this nonsense about people saying they need more facts and so on. Where the deuce are they living? Nightly on television, constant programmes to the point of boring. One worker interviewed said the right thing. His comment was he would be glad when the whole blooming thing was over. Most reasonables on both sides are probably thinking the same. It includes me so I can get on with my victory holiday! :cheers:
ps Glass has Irn Bru in it.
Hey whoa there rjh, Luxor said he was not a member of SNP, so maybe he didn't vote for them either, save your ammunition, or are you just practicing?
Eh? Come on now string you are not a nutjob from over the pond!
May I remind you that the NO Campaign includes Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat Parties. The party which produced the Bill to go through the Edinburgh Parliament was the SNP - along with 2 Greens so that lot of sandal wearers don't count for anything. So it was an SNP thing and only they could pruce the thing. So you are trying to be fait in a non-starter thing and I am surprised at you. There would be no Referendum but for them and he has to support them to try for independence as there is NO alternative. No SNP and there would be no damn Referendum. Tut, tut. :doh: :faint:
@String @Mr. Howie @Luxor: Have any of you come across a video of the debate? For those of us watching the going-ons from elsewhere, it'd be interesting to see this Salmond character in his debate form.
Not sure where you would get a copy although it was repeated on other channels. Briefly would say this. Maybe the BBC catch up thing might help (and the STV one re the first show.
Darling the NO man exceeded Salmond on the STV Debate. On the second by the BBC Scotland, Salmond caught up a bit after being drubbed the first time. To be blunt I don't think either show made much of a difference to be frankly honest as most have already made up their minds.
ps. At least we have been peaceful and separatists didn't have to wear (nice) grey uniforms.
General, Sir!
Google :
tv debate Scotland youtube
and you will find the debates and be able to enjoy the charming Mr Salmond.
It is said that Salmond "won" the debate.
It depends what the criteria for winning are I suppose. Note the (coached) advances towards the audience.
Eh? Come on now string you are not a nutjob from over the pond!
May I remind you that the NO Campaign includes Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat Parties. The party which produced the Bill to go through the Edinburgh Parliament was the SNP - along with 2 Greens so that lot of sandal wearers don't count for anything. So it was an SNP thing and only they could pruce the thing. So you are trying to be fait in a non-starter thing and I am surprised at you. There would be no Referendum but for them and he has to support them to try for independence as there is NO alternative. No SNP and there would be no damn Referendum. Tut, tut. :doh: :faint:
I try to be objective and fair, although I admit both are difficult in this area.
Please check your PMs.
There are many who are inclined to vote Yes who are members of other parties, even Conservatives, it would not surprise me at all if Luxor was one of them if not the latter, especially as he said so. But he can speak for himself.
You know, I could hope the "Yes" vote wins for one reason. That reason is to watch RJH go completely bonkers the day after the election. I could imagine him loading his last suitcase on the moving van the day after the election and heading South of the border just as fast as he can. :devil:
His mob
Oh there you go again "My mob". Just who exactly is my mob?
You think you know, but the reality is you don't know. The fact that people who have nothing to do with the SNP (or the greens since you mention them) might actually be voting yes to independence, must come as an awful shock to you. It's a referendum not the end of the world, don't get so het up about it. Could be the end of the empire though, but that's no big loss. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Coffee2.gif)
Hey whoa there rjh, Luxor said he was not a member of SNP, so maybe he didn't vote for them either
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BigSmile.gif)
Have any of you come across a video of the debate?
Saw a couple on youtube but they were quickly removed. If you can view BBC content (there are ways I believe) it's available there. Linky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04g1w4s/scotland-decides-salmond-versus-darling) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Link.gif)
Have any of you come across a video of the debate?
Saw a couple on youtube but they were quickly removed. If you can view BBC content (there are ways I believe) it's available there. Linky (http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04g1w4s/scotland-decides-salmond-versus-darling) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Link.gif)
That above link
is only good in the UK, & I'm to busy to switch my Satellite VPN Tunnel just to view a video, so.........
I just searched youtube & here is what I found
(Free for all the world to watch courtesy of America's C-SPAN (http://www.c-span.org/about/mission/)):[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2_wKQilX5s[/VIDEO]
I hope that was the right one. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
BTW.....JFYI.....I watched snips here & there throughout the debate, & as I see it Darling tried to mute (unsuccessfully IMHO) Salmond's message & responses with persistent over-talking & interruptions. Salmond held his own quite well irregardless of Darlings vain attempts. It seams Darling really didn't want the Scottish people to hear what Salmond had to say -- & would prefer to use interruptive over-talk, rather than debate the facts respectfully & on their true merits ---- IMHO, based on what I saw.
Waffle from snarling Luxor!There would be no Referendum but for the SNP and I see no need to go on repeating. On a more important matter, Salmond is still bouncing about on the cirrency matter. Come hell or high water he will still be linked to the UK on that he says. Now how dashed silly is that one when he has been repeatedly told by the opposition that is NOT going to happen. Instead he expects folk to believe finances will be okay and simply ignores the obvious. Thrown in no central bank and it is even more ludicrous. He even goes on to say that in a Yes win he would then ask the people what they want for currency? He does everything but ignore the truth that there will be no sharing. The other daftness is him claiming that staying with the Bank of england is the right way. How insulting to intelligence. How can an independent Scotland be so when it has to be told by a foreign bank rates, etc? At the same time the Scots Fnance Secretary in a debate with the head of the Better Together side says that if they don't get a shared currency then they won't pay their share of the debt. What a brilliant start that will be. Him and Salmond need to get together and stop acting like Laurel and Hardy.
Recently when the NO Campaign had to close donations as they had reached the limit permitted by the Electoral Commission the SNP moaned that inbetween piles of small donations No had got big ones. Interesting that throwaway as the SNP got 2 donations of half a million each from a couple who won the Lottery.
Anyway will be in Edinburgh for the Unionist rally which will as it did the last time they were out actually outnumber the SNP lot! The flag flies proudly out my home and will still have a holiday the day after to celebrate the NO side. Will before I go have a glass of (diet) Irn Bru before I am away! :cheers: :D
Waffle from snarling Luxor!
People in glass houses etc. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Whistle.gif)
See you couldn't answer my question as to who my "mob" are. Just as I thought, no idea. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
When the referendum?
I'm sorry but I see no place for the Scottish representative. There are people already standing waiting for a seat.
Better to postpone the independence.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fguardianlv.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F09%2FUnited_Nations_General_Assembly_Hall_3-e1380126886654.jpg&hash=e0f51df0bc4008f8839c1b8097caf852" rel="cached" data-hash="e0f51df0bc4008f8839c1b8097caf852" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://guardianlv.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Hall_3-e1380126886654.jpg)
When the referendum?
The 18th of September.
Better to postpone the independence.
Too late, the postal votes are out. :P
Waffle from snarling Luxor!
People in glass houses etc. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Whistle.gif)
See you couldn't answer my question as to who my "mob" are. Just as I thought, no idea. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
Probably thinks you are an American.
Actually, it's his 'meaningless man' syndrome & his excessive paranoia.
It's himself, & his Borscht Buddy Vlad up against the rest of the big, bad, evil world nipping at their heals.
Two totally misunderstood souls lost at sea, a treacherous sea of evildoers.
Well I feel i should listen to you tt92 on the matter of glasshouse thinking. After all you live in a land were so-called rights and freedoms are being eroded al the time. Hypocrisy champion of the world.So I do regard your experience on that subject as you are living with it. The trouble is no-one comes closer to the land of ex-colonists. And on the subject of the referendum on separation you try it over there and one has no chance.
Thank you to all who posted the links and suggestions about watching the debate.
@Mr. Howie:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.meme.li%2Finstances%2F500x%2F53894611.jpg&hash=15bf8dd85740bcc6130652f5703c9977" rel="cached" data-hash="15bf8dd85740bcc6130652f5703c9977" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.meme.li/instances/500x/53894611.jpg)
That's what you think, and that's what I think, but Mr. Howie knows better.
Well, no true Scotsman would lie... :) (And -I'm sure tt92 would agree- Howie's too young to claim serious lapses of memory!)
I hadn't heard that Australia is dumping freedoms. In fact, they're free-er than the United States is supposed to be, last I heard. Further, Aussie military might seems mostly defensive, I don't think they're trying to push their brand of politics anywhere beyond their borders.
So doesn't at the end of the day matter where tt92 comes from as arrogance has no limits. Maybe Colonel you will tell me next he is an Aussie with Irish roots next as that could explain much. If not they have a reputation for being strident whether the argument is right or not.
The YES Campaign was quick enough to boast about Sean Connery being one of them but that didn't surprise me from his Irish roots. Equally the NO Campaign had a petition from 50,000 including Sir Paul Mccartney and other famous people. All part of the campaign if the Australian PM is a NO supporter.
Anyway, back here a Scots Westminster MP, Jim Murphy was dealt with badly in hustings on a tour (sued 2 empty irn Bru cases to stand on). A whole team of Nationalists didn't just heckle but one stood right up against him trying to be right uyp against him and eye him out and eggs were thrown. He was sworn at got the finger up at him and so on- even threatened with violence. These idiots are using scum, traitors, quisling as regular stuff. It is one thing heckling by such behaviour is something else. The YES Campaign had to come against such behaviour but it is not a single matter it is an organised mob.
On a more less contentious note, I think most here had made up their minds a while ago anyway and there isn't that much chat going on about it in practice. Indeed the media is boring us to death with it and one has to hope it doesn't put people to not voting. Being British does not stop me being Scots and I don't want to be Salmond type Caledonian.
Anyway, back here a Scots Westminster MP, Jim Murphy was dealt with badly in hustings on a tour (sued 2 empty irn Bru cases to stand on). A whole team of Nationalists didn't just heckle but one stood right up against him trying to be right uyp against him and eye him out and eggs were thrown. He was sworn at got the finger up at him and so on- even threatened with violence. These idiots are using scum, traitors, quisling as regular stuff. It is one thing heckling by such behaviour is something else. The YES Campaign had to come against such behaviour but it is not a single matter it is an organised mob.
Oh goody I've been waiting for you to bring up this tripe and you haven't let me down.
Murphy's whole soapbox tour, (which usually has about three supporters and a dug), has seen him ranting and pointing fingers at anyone who dares to have the audacity to ask him a simple question. If it's a difficult question he just ignores them. He's trying to make out that it is a mob organised by the yes campaign, when he has not one shred of evidence. Frankly that is so ridiculous a claim that I actually feel embarrassed for him. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Embarrased.gif)
The egg thrower has as much chance of just being a disgusted labour supporter than a yes campaigner. Who like many in Scotland is disgusted with them for being in bed with the tories. I find it strange that he hasn't made a complaint to the police. It wouldn't surprise me that if he did they may discover it was a stage managed stunt. It got his insignificant little tour the publicity he so badly wanted, as nobody was taking any notice of it up to that point. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
Politicians tend to get eggs (or other unsavoury things) thrown at them, especially if they are standing in front of people and telling them lies. He's not the first and I doubt he'll be the last. Most of them laugh it off and get on with what they were doing, but Murphy would rather make it out to be something it's not. Much like you are doing.
Funny how I've never read you criticising the unionist who have made death threats or assaulted yes campaigners. Or is one individual throwing an egg at an MP a bigger crime in your book?
FWIW, I finally voted in this thread's poll. Of course it has no standing in the great scheme of things, but--. I voted "yes" partly because I have a suspicion Scotland should be free, but more-- to be quite honest-- to get RJH's goat. I have a suspicion it'll stir things up a might over by his way.
I hadn't heard that Australia is dumping freedoms.
If I Google for "Australia losing freedoms", this (http://www.ozunited.info/letter.htm) is the "I'm feeling lucky" result. :P
I hadn't heard that Australia is dumping freedoms.
If I Google for "Australia losing freedoms", this (http://www.ozunited.info/letter.htm) is the "I'm feeling lucky" result. :P
I read the link. Suddenly, I have a desire to open Wile E. Coyote's incredibly small umbrella-- the one he had just before the rocks came crashing down on his head.
"
That voice! Where have I heard that voice?"
Nah, mjsmsprt40 don't get too ambitious about stirring things up here. Mainly as you have enough to contend with over there will dilution of rights and privacy, yeuch political system, poor and homeless by the millions along with straining to maintain your Imperial army wanting to control the world. It makes our Referendum matter a passing routine. Whatever happens here this month is nothing like the state you're in boy. Oh and I will be taking the train to Edinburgh to join 15.000 Scots Unionists marching down the Royal Mile to a speaking rally at a park. A much better turnout than the Nats could produce and a bigger crowd of watchers I bet you. :sing:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0MklIdTiaU[/video]
The 18th of September.
Just to weeks to go. After the "yes" victory how much time the English collaborationists have to leave the country?
I hope the English have refugee camps ready for your lot rjhowie... better start packing. :)
Or maybe you are considering asking for political asylum over the pond... I'm sure they will receive you with a warm welcoming after all your eulogies ... :)
My suggestion would be the French Riviera, a bit expensive of course but you'll be surrounded by Russian Counts and Duchesses... what a glamorous life for Baron Howie at his exile. :)
You prefer the Estoril? Sintra? Nice, eh? that can be arranged... just knee and kiss the Pope's ring. :)
After the "yes" victory how much time the English collaborationists have to leave the country?
We're not bitter, they are quite welcome to stay and be part of a progressive country. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BestFriends.gif)
Though I could think of a few MP's who I would deport on the first train south. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BigGrin.gif)
We're not bitter, they are quite welcome to stay and be part of a progressive country.
With so much friendship and cooperation, let's see if England doesn't have a referendum for turning Scottish...
The reputable Mr. Howie will no doubt be on the front lines in Edinburgh: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/scottish-republicans-orange-order-parade-yes-campaign (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/scottish-republicans-orange-order-parade-yes-campaign)
The SNP rally in Edinburgh had half the numbers they claimed and that was from the police. Neither did they get a big following on the streets. In fact a while befoe that the OO had a family style parade and rally in an Edinburgh park and some 11,000 turned up which was double the Nats. Now this even is expected to see around 15,000.
As for Slaven anc company there are but a tiny minority anywhere in Scotland and when they do parade they look like the left overs from a jumble sale. If anyone feels a need to change their vote because of this forthcoming parade it says a lot about their brain power and depth. Salmond a few years ago was toadying with the RC Church here and became "pals" with the Cardinal in charge. However the cardinal had to resign and is out the country being "treated" by his lot as 3 young priests had broke the news he had tried queer stuff with them. Following the Guardian style thinking does that mean RC's should not support their Church. You really are either getting desperate or in one of your youthful tee-hee moods to stir but why is that newspaper still here? it is losing hundreds of thousands of pounds and is from a background that you would find politically questionable from your background!
The YES Campaign includes not just the SNP but the Green Party (I'm stiflying a laugh), etc. The NO Campaign includes some politicians who aon the fringes (like the Respect MP, Geo Galloway) so a wide remit on both sides actually. Having been well brought up my hand can only cross where it is a "NAW"! 8)
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/10419382_753617574697235_106258744645265273_n.jpg?oh=de44f8636188c05660e5e59820daf42c&oe=545D0BD4)
:yes: :cheers:
[glow=blue,2,300] An Independent Scotland? [/glow]
[glow=orange,2,300]Scotland's future, in Scotland's hands...[/glow]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbWnBX6BY5A[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fY0_JBlM34g[/VIDEO]
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2Fpi7gKNw.jpg&hash=2b345a36f263feca0be10df34c856e37" rel="cached" data-hash="2b345a36f263feca0be10df34c856e37" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/pi7gKNw.jpg)
[glow=orange,2,300]Poll shows Yes support surge to 51 per cent[/glow]
A YouGov poll published in the Sunday Times shows that Yes support has surged to 51 per cent - up 12 points since the YouGov poll in early August, with No down 12 points.
The findings give Yes its best result so far in any poll of the campaign - Yes has reached 51 per cent, with No dropping to 49 per cent, once 'don't knows' are excluded.
Meanwhile, Yes Scotland published findings from a new poll, commissioned by the Yes campaign and conducted by Panelbase, which finds a record high of 47 per cent support for independence among women, with the gender gap between male and female Yes support virtually closed.
The overall support for Yes in the Panelbase poll is 48 per cent, excluding undecideds. When undecideds are included, Yes support is at 44 per cent - the highest recorded by Panelbase so far.
The Panelbase poll also finds that an overwhelming majority of people in Scotland believe that the referendum is something to be proud of - by 69 per cent to 15 per cent.
Commenting on the YouGov poll, Yes Scotland's chief executive, Blair Jenkins, said: "This breakthrough poll shows that Yes has the big momentum - it's an all-time high for Yes support in the campaign, and a 12-point swing from No to Yes in the last month. Yes support is rising particularly strongly among women - and already over a third of Labour voters plan to vote Yes..............Continued (http://www.yesscotland.net/news/yougov-poll-shows-yes-support-surge-51-cent)
Click to play:♫♫♫ [glow=green,2,300]
The Times They Are A Changing[/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/MP3/The_Times_They_Are_A_Changing.mp3)
And meantime another poll at the same time by an equally reputable polling organisation put No =1% above the Yes campaign. So kind of eachy-peachy.
Here we practice democracy unlike over the pond where you would never get the chance for a State to have a referendum and the last time there was an attempt to leave the club they got scorched earth results. Inbetween the thing has been the rather sick way many Nationalists have been acting. Like the former government Minister Jim Murphy having eggs thrown at him while on a makeshift soapbox. Another went right up to his face trying to stare him out, got threatened called a traitor and quisling. This went beyond the acceptable heckling. The vast majority of cyber bullies have been on the YES campaign dwarfing any from the NO. Even national personalities like Sir Paul McCartney and Rawlings the witer suffered horrific abuse amongst others.
In a conversation the other day with 2 local store shop assistants who were SNP supporters I asked then questions on economics, taxes, pensions, cost of world embassies and much else they couldn't answer. Even reminded them that Salmond wanted the place to be like Scandinavia where tax is 50% of your salary, all i got was "something will work out." (!) We get the usual street interviews and a woman said she was influenced by her heart but her head won and was voting NO. A man voting YES said it was because "we" never get the national government we vote for. That one is a bare faced lie and he was repeating what Salmond said. I have already said here that since WW2, Scotland votes Conservative twice and there was a Tory government at Westminster. Eight times it voted Labour and they won nationally. That is democracy.
We constantly get this Conservative wobbly thing all the time even though 400,000 Scots voted for the Tories last General Election!. Far too many Scots are too mawkish and simple instead of thinking of hard facts. One associate of mine says he would move to Ulster on a yes vote. Many of us here are in practical fact sick to death of the whole referendum blah, blah. Programmes every night sometimes twice and boring everyone to death. There is also a very silent and large republican element in the SNP however the party has been totally hypocritical in saying they still want the monarch as head of State. There is also an Irish history part in the yes lot as well and other undercurrents being sat on for the sake of votes.
Oh, gee--- I dunno--- d'ye think we should tell Mr Howie about the Conch Republic--- or keep it a secret?
Yes, RJ-- there HAS been a successful secession, without bloodshed, in the United States. Who woulda thunk it?
http://www.conchrepublic.com/ (http://www.conchrepublic.com/)
And meantime another poll at the same time by an equally reputable polling organisation put No =1% above the Yes campaign. So kind of eachy-peachy.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/crystal-ball_lg.gif)
♫♫♫ [glow=green,2,300]The Times They Are A Changing[/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/MP3/The_Times_They_Are_A_Changing.mp3)
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)
One associate of mine says he would move to Ulster on a yes vote.
As was once before will be once again .... Saint Ira Patrick will cast out his lot too!!! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)
Hope yer friend brings his rubber ducky & his water wings, & just to be safe, his bullet-proof vest too (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/taunt.gif)
♫♫♫ [glow=green,2,300]The Times They Are A Changing[/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/MP3/The_Times_They_Are_A_Changing.mp3)
BTW........ RJ, were you in Glasgow 12 July?
I couldn't stay too, too long, being I'm 'persona non grata' in most of yer Isles. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/cool.gif)
I looked fer ya, (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Watching%20You.gif) but I didn't see ya.
Quaint lil gathering there though, & those marching little clowns --- they could have filled a large burlap bag full of perfect derby topped assholes, donning silly little orange sashes. I wonder, do those cute lil orange sashes come in men's too? Prolly not.... (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)
Now we are getting promised more powers if we vote no. They must think we are stupid. Why would we want some more powers (but not any that really count) when we can have all the powers under our control if we vote yes.
Tick, tock, tick, tock...
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6haZKgF.jpg&hash=d6d81699c67d3b3e07ed9d2f2e9db176" rel="cached" data-hash="d6d81699c67d3b3e07ed9d2f2e9db176" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/6haZKgF.jpg)
How funny pro independence Scottish and non Scottish to think that Scotland has any space inside EU as an independent country.
An independent Scotland that suddenly appears fallen from the skies will face such a resistance from the Mediterranean World that better to run under the English domination again.
Scotland will not receive a single Euro. By the contrary, they will have to pay a lot. Oh, yes... How's that for the independence dreams? :)
Maybe better to think a little bit about it and, specially, to ask pro independence leaders how do they think they will solve getting poorer instead of getting richer...
You can also give me a medal for my advices, it will spare a lot of illusions.
You are not dreaming about turning a second Norway outside EU, are you?
.
You are not dreaming about turning a second Norway outside EU, are you?
The only thing I'm dreaming about is living in a country that isn't ruled by another. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink2.gif)
Very well, Luxor. :)
I sincerely hope that difficulties to come will strength that desire.
The opposite scenario would be much more likely to happen in the event of an independent Scotland, that Scotland stays in the EU and the rest of the UK leaves.
My country decided it was "blood in, blood out" a long time ago. I've wondered if the advertisement for that was true.
Now we are getting promised more powers if we vote no. They must think we are stupid. Why would we want some more powers (but not any that really count) when we can have all the powers under our control if we vote yes.
The only thing I'm dreaming about is living in a country that isn't ruled by another. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink2.gif)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FefYqUO5.png&hash=ac170729adc58cbaea1470af4b83916e" rel="cached" data-hash="ac170729adc58cbaea1470af4b83916e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/efYqUO5.png)
God Speed Luxor in the pursuit of your dreams of National Independence, where each Scot will be able to enjoy
all the fruits of their labors, & desire what course to steer the tides of a self-determined future without interference from afar. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/yes2.gif)
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/A%20OK%20002.gif) Yes Luxor, from that moment onward forever your Scotland's Future will be in Scotland's hands! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/victorypi2.gif)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FefYqUO5.png&hash=ac170729adc58cbaea1470af4b83916e" rel="cached" data-hash="ac170729adc58cbaea1470af4b83916e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/efYqUO5.png)
I feel sadly that Luxor is a little like many Scots and more ruled by the heart than the mind.
In an independent Scotland Salmond wants to be in the EEC and already a great chunk of our laws are decided in Brussels not in Gt Britain or Scotland. Should there be separation and GB votes in a Referendum to be out of Europe then Scotland does have a problem. Luxor neatly steps aside from the hard fact that Brussels will be the "country" that decides things and Scotland would be under the same regime as the rest of Europe which is in a turmoil.
When talking to the two shop assistants voting yes I tried to get a proper dialogue with them. I raised everything from no shared pound to no central bank, cost ot embassies all the changes and they made little attempt to defend themselves. Instead the answerrwas "Something would be worked out." With respect that is emotion not head sense and living just on the emotional is not a good basis for anything. Indeed all those who simply do what Salmond does and sneer simply say there would be a shared currency after a separation/ That is just plain bonkers as is having no central bank. And still linked to the Bank of England as a hope?! In day to day terms that would mean that an independent Scotland would have their economics, etc ruled from another country altogether!
There are also an awful lot of people in the SNP and near to them with a hidden agenda whatever Salmond says about the form of Head of State. What I am saying is there is a republican lot who are keeping their mouths shut rather than upset their voting chances so an example of political deviance and lack of morality. They have kept zipped and being dishonest and leaves a future matter to be vented. As for the Unionists side giving some lie or propaganda stuff on powers such is rich coming from a nationalist mindset! That lot have come out with all sorts of propaganda themselves. A year or so ago there were discussions about powers and that it was found that perhaps the majority of Scots would have liked a third question on that very thing so it isn't a casual throw in. Personally, i was in the minority corner who voted against devolution but put up with it as a fact of life. The more layers of government we get the greater the cost and it became the chattering class lifeblood.
Are there those who are incapable? Yep there are. Surveys showed that the majority of the population had no wish to see the naval subs at Faslane being shunted off but the same people who are of that mind go along at the same time with the SNP slogan against such! The media is as always going proverbially bananas and they are boring a lot of people to death night after night. With so many facts being dished out continually, Scots who say they don't know enough are either not very bright or not interested. For all those shortbread heids waving the tartan stating as Salmond did with the cry of "Yes we can" should remember they tried that one in the ex-colonies!
NAW THANKS!
The opposite scenario would be much more likely to happen in the event of an independent Scotland, that Scotland stays in the EU and the rest of the UK leaves.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=279.250;msg=27133)
It certainly will be interesting to see how much independent Scotland will be, adhesion to EU presupposing a transfer of an huge part of sovereignty... that they can count on it.
As for the UK for long that they should had been invited to leave, their double policy being inadmissible.
Anyway, if the Yes wins, the next eighteen will be an historical moment and today's generations of Scots are living an unique opportunity.
I hope they put rjhowie at Brussels, he will drive Germans mad...
Maybe that's the English plan... clever. :)
I feel sadly that Luxor is a little like many Scots and more ruled by the heart than the mind.
Then you would be wrong. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
In a few more days you guys in Scotland will actually get to vote on whether to remain in the UK or become independent. Back in the day when we separated from Britain, we had to do it the hard way. I doubt that the Crown and Parliament would have accepted the outcome of a popular vote in the colonies, probably would have ruled the whole thing illegal and sent more troops to enforce the Crown's will.
In case anyone still cares… Here's Prof. Somin's take (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/10/assessing-the-possibility-of-scottish-secession/) on Scottish Independence. (Would an informed electorate be undecided a week away from polling? Yes, of course! That's democracy…in action. :) [Don't just read it… Hear it, Man!])
Ah-had Chicago man that sounds quite sensible at first thought until you realise the actual truth of that money-class revolution! Even Time-Life several years ago in a documentary said what some of us already knew and that was in hard terms only a third of the population went out to support the event. Another third wanted to stay with the Crown and the last third didn't much care a dashed thing who ran the country. In the first Russian Revolution the Bolshies were a minority yet still managed to destroy the provisional Government when they had a coup leading the civil war.And as for voting rights your own lot have nothing to boast about bwteen 1961 and 64! Not happy with the club and want out of the US? - no chance. So if quoting histry again mjsmsprt40 be cautious! :lol:
OK, RJH. Your undying hatred of the United States has been noted.
Now that that's out of the way: I've been reading the blogs at the place where I keep my blog these days, since the old place threw us out in the street-- and you get a pretty fair spread of ideas about the "Scottish Revolution" as I call it. The link below is a fellow who started out as a "Yes" voter, and is now-- after a bit more than a year of studying the issues-- almost a militant "No" voter. Of course, if you follow this at all closely, you can find blogs written by people going the other way as well-- so Sept. 18 will be an interesting day.
http://scotlandstaywithus.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/how-yes-turned-to-no/ (http://scotlandstaywithus.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/how-yes-turned-to-no/)
I look forward to the day when this country has another discussion on our (forced) Union.
In 5 years time when the Dollar collapses and is no longer considered the world's reserve currency, perhaps we'll revisit it?
Scots should be grateful that the UK allows thus vote peaceably.
Firstly mjsmsprt40 you are a self created conundrum. When people in an argument or whatever throw in the word 'hatred' it is a very immature reaction being unable to see the point. You have been on this daft kick for a while and it is I am afraid and in simple terms kind of crassly stupid! Unfortunate that has to be said but you are unable to cope with a view on the way your country is actually run and it is not for the benefit of the people. What I am not going to repeatedly repeat is that I have never expressed the word 'hat' but have to put up with you falling back on it. The same applies to your ore limited view on historical matters. I will break a haboit and say just this once that one can disagree strongly with a person or politician's stance but not treat him as a natural leper. The same goes for countries. I even gave a recent example of a man I used to face down as he was an voluntary organiser for the Communists (tiny lot) and he never got one over me but I didn't "hate him" although had no time for his stance. Same applies for your country's determination to be in charge of the world and to heck with anyone else as well as the way the nation is run. If i hated individuals in the ex-colonies i wouldn't even bother myself being here on this Forum so do try to be sensible dear man.
Colonel Rebel does have a principled point and for goodly reason regarding your own history over there. We internally in a democracy came to a co-operative and sensible agreement to have a Referendum. Now compare that with what would happen over in your land. The answer is that all Hell would break loose and the least that would happen would be told you would not be allowed to leave! Countries can have referendums or decide on splits yet you won't even countenance it? Some time ago, i said on the Opera Forum that the USA is in very considerable danger economically for the fuure. Being so bent on wanting to be the work top business, etc at any price including that growing phenomenal debt would one day lead to one almighty collapse. You are not helped by being in hock so much to Red China either.
So if a State or group of them did not feel inclined to be any part of the economic stupidity and could exist themselves why shouldn't they be allowed to leave if they want? What they would get is the sound of marching feet into their territory. Shame on you talking about democracy but not practicing it.
Scots should be grateful that the UK allows thus vote peaceably.
If they want to be independent, I find very strange someone to let their independence will to depend on other's goodwill. Is that an independence?
It doesn't starts too well...
Scots should be grateful that the UK allows thus vote peaceably.
If they want to be independent, I find very strange someone to let their independence will to depend on other's goodwill. Is that an independence?
It doesn't starts too well...
It is indeed strange, but US politics in general are strange.
It remains strange to me that most in this country continue to hold a god-like reverence for Abraham Lincoln, when countless dictators in the 20th century cited that man's policy in Atlanta and also his multiple-year suspension of constitutional rights as something of a maverick style.
Leaders from Castro to Hitler to Stalin applauded Lincoln's policies.
Very strange indeed my Portuguese friend.... :sherlock:
It's quite odd, indeed, that insurrection and rebellion are seen by some -still!- as something other than a perilous undertaking: Their forefathers knew better!
Nah. Don't subscribe to that about forefathers somehow automatically knew better. Abraham Lincoln was a two-faced liar and a fraud. Kind of excellent illustration that proves my point admirably.
ps. Just look at the way the wonderful nation across the pond dealt with those in 1864 who had the temerity to want to leave! Disgusting and disgraceful. Just nodded to my pic of Lee on my wall.......
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FQhzgS45.png&hash=4bb5170f094f545ea4ad3059ee635146" rel="cached" data-hash="4bb5170f094f545ea4ad3059ee635146" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/QhzgS45.png)
Very good now mjsmsprt40. That Braveheart film was a load of something else and the lead man was an Aussie. On Saturday thousands of Orangemen after a a meeting of speeches marched through Edinburgh and down the Royal mile past the parliament building and finishing at the Scottish Office (a UK building). Took two hours which tells you something. In Glasgow in the main pedestrianised and famous Buchanan shopping street there were both Yes and No things going on and there was a small marquee with the Communist party giving out leaflets and crossing swords with yes people as the Reds are NO supporters!
In a practical sense if the Yes lot of modern Jacobites won their would be half the population disgruntled and stuck with it. I am all out in the campaign to keep Scotland where it is and the latest news is shares going down and withdrawing of money by the financial sector if the worst was to happen. The one thing that has come out of this is the number of daft fellow Scots there are living in the past.
Proud to be Scots - proud to be British!
In Glasgow in the main pedestrianised and famous Buchanan shopping street there were both Yes and No things going on and there was a small marquee with the Communist party giving out leaflets and crossing swords with yes people as the Reds are NO supporters!
But of course! Are you aware of this analysis (http://www.redstate.com/2014/09/11/tory-moral-hazard-scottish-independence/), that projects a Tory Parliament in the "south" for many elections to come:
Somewhere a number-cruncher in the Tory political back offices is running his Excel Spreadsheet and experiencing a electric tingle of Moral Hazard over this Scottish Independence Referendum. Kicking the Scottish heirs to James Keir Hardie’s intellectual and political legacy out of the British Parliament would be a significant setback to the Labour Party for many elections to come. Prime Minister Cameron sounds sincere in both his concern and his patriotism. In so being, he could very well have to play Abe Lincoln to his own party’s George McClellans. Scottish Independence has a lot to offer the cynical, hardball realist who votes Tory in The British Electoral System.
Usually, "the Reds" play the long game… They'd not yield Scotland, if it cost them the rest of the UK! :)
RJ, you have my sympathies; and I appreciate your patriotism, both as a stance and a reasoned conclusion. (Although you are a closet-Socialist -as are many of your countrymen- you still know that you can't "cook the books" of a bankrupt company… :) ) Vote NO!
Voting YES means the stupid people win… Which means everybody eventually loses: If
they (the YES folks…) had to risk more than their posterity -after giving up their probity!- that is, if they had to do what
we Americans did; they'd blanch! Do you doubt it? :)
My most serious (and, mostly, uninformed) opinion on this "question" is another: What rights and privileges are the Scots deprived of? Put another way, How are Scots harmed (…say, more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland…) by their union?
When I read
* your Declaration of Independence, perhaps I'll understand… But, to my knowledge, it hasn't been written yet. (One doesn't wonder why: the list of grievances is woefully inadequate! Still, I'm an American: What do I know? :) )
I do hope your "side" wins.
——————————————————
*
reed gives the pronunciation; some people -I know- have unnecessary difficulties, with spelling… Even you, now, can hardly get it wrong! :)
On Saturday thousands of Orangemen after a a meeting of speeches marched through Edinburgh and down the Royal mile past the parliament building and finishing at the Scottish Office (a UK building).
Thus giving the "Yes" a vote a boost in the polls.
Groundkeeper Willie has something to say.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk[/video]
Well, being Scotland independence an almost irrelevant thing, except for themselves of course, better to pay attention to what those that really matters have to say about it.
I read that the principal economist (or something of the sort) of Deutsch Bank went to public to advert about the "huge economic problems" an independent Scotland will face.
Since no one ever asked the opinion of such insect, it's obvious that he's delivering Mrs Merkel message. That's very very interesting, why Germany is helping the British...
Of course there is not something as a free lunch and such "help" will be payed back ten times more. Better the British to get rid of Scotland... :)
Welcome to European politics, something a bit more complex than many naive souls are used to.
I have a question for those who are supposedly 'in the know'.
If the Scots decide on using the Pound designation, do they need England's (Brittan's) permission?
Does England have the name 'Pound' registered as an international trademark, or do they have any international copyright holdings on it's use?
Couldn't Scotland just designate the name of their currency as 'The Pound', without having to be beholden to the Bank of England, or any other British financial system or institution for that matter?
I don't recall the Australians needing or asking America's permission to use the 'Dollar' back 45+ years ago, which as far as I know is also based on the decimal system, but similar in name only.
The Australian currency, for all that I know, isn't beholden to Americas Federal Reserve Bank or System, or guaranteed by the American Dollar.
ell you would well fit the Yes campaign Sanguinemoon because you are only repeating what someone else has said so don't try and fool that you were clever enough to work that out yourself. At one of the big four annual orange Celebrations for the 12th July a Labour MP agreed to be the speaker on the platform because the Order was well into the No space. The parade through Edinburgh after the public speeches took 2 hours to pass and was more than double the size what the Brigadoon sensationalists mustered. To the rest of we adults here as well figured out most people have already made their minds up a time ago and only a small percentage are don't know people. The thinking amongst us do know Belfrager about the economic side and independence is a frightful disaster waiting. A supervisor in my supermarket cafe had a chat with me due to my No badge and she is for Yes. She came out with that utter stupidity the SNP leader came out with. That one that said Scots never get the government UK-wise they vote for. I told her the answer I gave here that since WW2 Scotland had voted Conservative twice and there was a UK government and 8 times voted Labour and we got them in Westminster. It was a typical lie of Salmond's and she was just repeating what he said and when I illustrated the historical fact she wouldn't take it on board! I found the same on other points so too many of that lot just repeat in parrot fashion what he says and that is Gospel. I know a lot of people can be barren on practical mentality but didn't know was so wide spread.
Even the tiny Communist Party had a stall out in the city centre supporting the UK! When Salmond was pursued by the media on what a former Deputy Leader of the SNP said on tv about how on a Yes vote they would go after oil people and companies who were No minded. He was quite bitter and arrogant about it. Did Salmond apologise? Nope, instead he gave a flowery answer. The Yes lot have been very strident and goes beyond the normal political skirmish style. Threatening speakers, defacing No posters, etc and harrying. Now they want to have local "freedom marches" on polling stations? Kind of intimidation. I keep my strong emotions for the women in my life but the Nationalists seem incapable of not wallowing in nostalgic emotion rather than common sense.
SmileyFaze.
Your queries on currency are something that have been argued about here. The situation is that the SNP claims they would still have a pound as their currency but want to be linked to the Bank of England. Now that is daft because if Scotland was independent it would be at the mercy of a foreign bank - namely Bank of england which would set rates no matter what was wanted north of the border. Such an idea would avoid the separatists having a central bank to ensure they don't have a financial collapse so the SNP wants to be "free" but link to another country's bank?? I have already stated in these forums that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has categorically stated that an independent Scotland would NOT be allowed to be with the Bank of england and the two main opposition parties at Westminster have totally agreed with this stance. The SNP claims they are all bluffing so how stupid is that and the fact that Yes supporters simply agree with him.
The alternative would be to have a currency called a "pound" but not being with the Bank of England would leave matters open for a different value. On top of the fiasco from the nationalist they have threatened that in an independent state they would refuse to pay their share of the National Debt. That in turn leaves Scotland in a bad position where international monetary people would see it as a bad debtor. New countries to EEC (which Scotland would be) would get stuck with that messed up Euro only adding to the woes. I value my income and savings so No makes more sense.
The alternative would be to have a currency called a "pound" but not being with the Bank of England would leave matters open for a different value. On top of the fiasco from the nationalist they have threatened that in an independent state they would refuse to pay their share of the National Debt. That in turn leaves Scotland in a bad position where international monetary people would see it as a bad debtor. New countries to EEC (which Scotland would be) would get stuck with that messed up Euro only adding to the woes. I value my income and savings so No makes more sense.
So, say if they use their North Atlantic Oil Holdings as backing for their own
'Independent Pound', that's not viable either?
I think those holdings would be quite a formidable security guarantee, & easily back Scotland's own currency.
As far as any National Debt, those debts would become totally negotiable upon Independance.
An Independent Scotland need not refuse to pay up-front. No -- upon Independence all they
would need to do is say that the issue is pending renegotiation, & as long as it's pending,
no monies need be paid until the outcome of the said negotiations become definitive ---
even if those negotiations somehow drag on for 500 years! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/exitstageright.gif)
The only recourse England & Wales would have is to militarily invade Scotland, & attach all of Scotland's holdings --
-- which everyone damn well knows won't ever happen.
The only recourse England & Wales would have is to militarily invade Scotland, & absorb all of Scotland's holdings ---- which won't ever happen.
Smiley--- don't you read history books at all? Seems I remember reading once before England did invade Scotland.
Smiley--- don't you read history books at all? Seems I remember reading once before England did invade Scotland.
Laddie, this is 2014, not King Edward's 1296 (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/adoreen7.gif)
Nope, the only other saving grace that the 2 remaining vestiges of the once powerful British Empire could use is if England has the name
'Pound' registered as an international trademark, or if they have any international copyright holdings on the name's use. But then again, they would have to go to the courts to enjoin Scotland from using the name.
The issue isn't what the currency should be called if the Scots were to vote for independence, but what currency would be used. Keep using the British pound, either in a currency union or using it anyway, is to me a transitional choice. If they were to opt for a separate currency, they might call it pound or escudo or what have you, the perks of a sovereign nation.
I would be very surprised if that vote actually would happen. At actual voting time fear tends to trump loathing, and this is a referendum where you know what you will get with one alternative, but not with the other. Merely skirting 50/50 won't do. Also I suspect that many more that are going to vote NO or abstain are going to say that they intend to vote YES in opinion polls than the other way around. There is no harm in telling you are going to vote for independence, and it could put a scare into the ruling classes. NO is very much the establishment choice. If the polls had gone more like 60/40 it would be more ex(c)iting.
No, they can't call it Escudo.
The problem with the currency it's in the first place if it will be a currency of their own or using other currency.
It the British Pound that will mean no control whatsoever over financial instruments - no independence.
If the Euro, the situation will be the same but with a difference, they will benefit from some economic (not strictly financial) instruments.
If their own currency, the problem is not whatever it will be called but it's value and solidity against international financial speculation. Basically it will be others to decide how much it values.
It surprises me having independence first and only then remember they need a currency...
Same goes with other fundamental decisions. I think the Yes movement would have much more chances if presenting an image of someone that knows what they are doing and presenting a credible alternative.
Of course they could if they wanted to, but they don't so they wouldn't. There is no trademark on currency names, so there are tons of pounds and dollars and dinars and the rest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_currencies). If there were, the Czechs should make a pretty penny on the dollar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1chymov) and the tolar.
(Thanks to the above Wikipedia list over mostly defunct currencies, I now know the Euro didn't completely kill off the Mark. There were only two marks left, the German Mark and the Finnish Markka, but while they were subsumed by the Euro, Bosnia and Herzegovina are keepers of the mark flame.)
Of course they could if they wanted to, but they don't so they wouldn't.
Nope. How they could use it if they can't even pronounce it... :)
That's interesting, to invent a currency for them... I suggest the Scot. It sounds well and identifies it perfectly. A coffee? - one hundred Scots please... :)
If the Scots decide on using the Pound designation, do they need England's (Brittan's) permission?
No. As has been pointed out to them many times and that they eventually admitted, any country in the world can use the pound. A currency union would be the sensible solution for all. But Westminster politicians seem to wish to cut off their nose to spite their face at the moment.
Hell mend them I say.
John Oliver pleads for Scotland to stay:
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0[/video]
Just in case you can't view Frenzies link (I couldn't), here's an alternative.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRKND8QbbbE[/video]
Funny stuff. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/laughing2.gif)
That's interesting, to invent a currency for them... I suggest the Scot. It sounds well and identifies it perfectly. A coffee? - one hundred Scots please... :)
How it is pronounced, even how it is spelled doesn't matter. A dollar is a tolar is a Thaler is a Taler (modern German spelling, like how Neanderthal became Neandertal) is a daler. Maybe somebody will one day come up with a Valley as a currency.
So what about an Escoto? The value of an escoto could initially be pegged to the price of an espresso, in which case the price of a coffee would be an escoto. What could be simpler?
So what about an Escoto? The value of an escoto could initially be pegged to the price of an espresso, in which case the price of a coffee would be an escoto. What could be simpler?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=279.284;msg=27444)
:lol:
Beautiful. I love the Escoto. If adopted, I swear that I'll open an account in a Scottish Bank in Escotos.
(Not to be confused with the Escroto, that will mean the Scrotum... something not too much adequate to turn into a currency.)
The pound could be continued as a name on any possibility of separation - the Irish did that and it should be reminded there was a difference in it's rate. However there would be no central bank and if the bank situation under the last national government had happened in a detached Scotland it would have been a nightmare (as it was in Ireland). How you can want to be independent and be attached to another country's bank (Bank of England) is cake and eat it.
In amongst the polling stuff we get there are odd contradictions for both sides however one newpaper has given a most interesting assessment on Sunday. It looked at the Salmond aim to get into traditional labour places and the paper said that some may well have thought of Yes but in the same working class areas they have been drifting back to No. Of course in political terms it made sense for the SNP to go after that corner as the hundreds of thousands of Troies plus LibDems were not going to budge. Leaving aside the Net fiasco there has been more than a touch of aggression on the Yes side. No hoardings destroyed in rural Scotland, wanting to have marches to polling stations, calling people traitors if not on the Yes side. These have been unfortunate traits that have been ignored by Salmond. Even that leftie loony, Jim Sillars a former Deputy Leader, going about on television arrogantly and in threatening mode as to what "they" would do with No companies in an independent scenario. Salmond should have ticked him off but instead did a dance and came out with the comment that everyone would be safe.
On Saturday afternoon in Buchanan Street I mixed with Yes people for an argument but what got me and with a few others I know that were Yes was that they just ignored things they didn't understand on simple matters. The downright lie that Salmond said about what Scotland votes for and what it gets I have already mentioned here and hit them with that but it was body swerved with some other things. Instead where they could not give a reasonable or sensible answer one just got the repeat of wonderful Salmond unfortunate untruths.
Folk can waves saltires and be as active as they want but there are an awful lot of people who are rather quieter by nature and some hesitant about saying where they stand in case they are regarded as traitors and quislings as others in the public eye have suffered. Using the terms as underdogs the establishment and such are an insult to intelligence and the emotive flow gets the Nats carried away. I am as obvious a staunch No supporter but I too like an awful lot of Scots are fed up to the teeth with the constant stuff we keep getting bombarded with night after night on television and of course the papers. Many people who once alone have said they intend to vote No but have tended routinely to keep it to themselves as they may not be loud and forthright as the flag wavers.The truth is that the majority of Scots cannot wait until Thursday to get a bit of damn peace and it cannot come too soon.
The truth is that the majority of Scots cannot wait until Thursday to get a bit of damn peace and it cannot come too soon.
Ain't that the truth. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Yes.gif)
I'm beginning to develop a debate phobia and I'm scared to turn on my TV.
Oh it won't stop there, we can either either look forward to a period of bitter fluffiness or bitter animosity - take your pick.
If Scotland votes "Yes", I'm waiting to see what they do about the currency.
When these colonies went to independence, we had probably a dozen different currencies floating around--- the Pound being only one of the ones recognized on some level. Spanish coins were in use, French coins, Germanic coins-- plus tons and tons of scrip that had value based upon the wealth of the person who originally offered the scrip in payment.
Right now, Scotland really only has the Pound Sterling, so they're pretty much screwed if the Central Bank in England makes "no" stick and they have to find something else. These days you can't have Scottish privateers raiding Spanish treasure galleons in the Caribbean, so that method of getting currency is out. Gotta come up with something else.
If Scotland votes "Yes", I'm waiting to see what they do about the currency.
When these colonies went to independence, we had probably a dozen different currencies floating around--- the Pound being only one of the ones recognized on some level. Spanish coins were in use, French coins, Germanic coins-- plus tons and tons of scrip that had value based upon the wealth of the person who originally offered the scrip in payment.
Right now, Scotland really only has the Pound Sterling, so they're pretty much screwed if the Central Bank in England makes "no" stick and they have to find something else. These days you can't have Scottish privateers raiding Spanish treasure galleons in the Caribbean, so that method of getting currency is out. Gotta come up with something else.
As it would drive Mr. Howie insane, I vote that Scotland goes with the world's reserve currency, the US Dollar. (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sectalk.com%2Fboard%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Ftrollface.gif&hash=665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" rel="cached" data-hash="665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.sectalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/trollface.gif)
If Scotland votes "Yes", I'm waiting to see what they do about the currency.
The Republican-controlled Virginia House of Delegates on Monday advanced legislation that could lead to the establishment of a state-issued currency.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/virginia-currency_n_2625047.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/virginia-currency_n_2625047.html)
The idea still gets tossed around here.
If Scotland votes "Yes", I'm waiting to see what they do about the currency.
The Republican-controlled Virginia House of Delegates on Monday advanced legislation that could lead to the establishment of a state-issued currency.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/virginia-currency_n_2625047.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/05/virginia-currency_n_2625047.html)
The idea still gets tossed around here.
Oh, boy. If Mike Madigan hears of this, we're screwed for sure.
Think of it. Illinois with its own currency. Two wheelbarrows full of Madigans to buy a loaf of bread, at least six wheelbarrows full of Madigans if you want to buy gasoline-- hey, nobody said the official currency of Illinois would be worth much.
OK. Time for a serious question here.
Let's suppose the vote goes to the "Yes" camp in Thursday's election. Scotland becomes independent of the rest of the UK on a set date (not sure, I haven't heard what date that would be).
What happens next? Has anybody figured that out, does anybody on the Yes side have a clue of "what's next"?
We've already batted about the issue of currency, and so far what I hear is not promising. Now, I read in yet another blog that the "Yes" camp is made up of so many disparate groups that each think they'll be "top dog", and the end result is likely to be a governmental train-wreck of epic proportions. It would be like what would happen if these "Occupy" groups here actually got into power--- with so many competing factions, the "Occupy" government-- if it could be called a government-- would implode overnight, leaving discord in its wake.
So--- who's gonna be in charge, and--- do they have a workable plan?
OK. Time for a serious question here.
Let's suppose the vote goes to the "Yes" camp in Thursday's election. Scotland becomes independent of the rest of the UK on a set date (not sure, I haven't heard what date that would be).
What happens next? Has anybody figured that out, does anybody on the Yes side have a clue of "what's next"?
We've already batted about the issue of currency, and so far what I hear is not promising. Now, I read in yet another blog that the "Yes" camp is made up of so many disparate groups that each think they'll be "top dog", and the end result is likely to be a governmental train-wreck of epic proportions. It would be like what would happen if these "Occupy" groups here actually got into power--- with so many competing factions, the "Occupy" government-- if it could be called a government-- would implode overnight, leaving discord in its wake.
So--- who's gonna be in charge, and--- do they have a workable plan?
As I understand it, from some brief research, Scotland would be granted full independence in 2016; not sure if it'd be 18th of September or not.
The two year allowance would allow the proper negotiations to take place, and they would probably take that long anyway, especially the oil and currency arguments.
Also, IIRC, the problem will come when the General Election rolls around in 2015. Scotland would still, at that time, be considered a part of the UK, but would be on it's way out. What happens to the Labour MP's in Scotland during that time? The lone Scottish Tory? Do they vacate their seats on 19th of September of this year? Do Scots get to vote in the GE?
As you say, lots of interesting questions to be answered.
My interest will be in their (Independent Scottish) immigration policy.
The Nationalists claim in a Yes situation the whole thing would be accomplished in 1 months. What utter bunk. Oh they could have a pound but in time it would not be the same value as the UK. On top of that the whole system would change. Everything from pensions, things like road tax and everything inbetween. Unlike the rest of the UK there would be no central bank so in a ciris like a few years ago what then? Only a tiny handful of soliders, etc want to be part of a 'Scottish F=Defence Force' so where would they get the military? The UK and all main parties have made it clear that if you go your own way there will be no sharing and as I said the SNP claims that the UK is bluffing on not having a shared currency. How stupid is that stance by the nationalists? If the UK voted in the proposed Referendum on the EEC and came out an independent Scotland which the Nats want in the EEC then there would definitely have to be border controls to stop immigrants getting into the south. The SNP leader, that muffin head, Salmond has said that if no shared currency then he would renege on the share of the UK National Debt. Now that in turn would create difficult obtaining loans globally starting with a debt default.
The main Yes support is amongst the 20/30 age range but older people by a considerable majority are No supporters and many of the 15 and 17's are too. It was a daft thing to allow 16 and 17's to vote in the Referendum when they cannot vote in any other election. My cousin and husband have made plans to leave and take all their considerable money with them either to England or America. O would maybe consider Ulster. Some companies have already prepared to switch money south and the banks will move their HQ's there too.
Apart from this there is a nasty element that doesn't normally appear here in elections. Yes we know in fairness it can come from both sides bu the Yes lot are away our in front for being vicious, arrogant and nasty. Time after time No posters have been either destroyed or stuck over with Yes stuff. No politicians have been harried well neyond the traditional heckling into mobs of threatening gangs. Indeed they threaten and miscall, curse and swear. At the weekend a thousand turned up outside the BBC Scottish HQ in Glasgow screaming like demented nut cases saying the corporation was bias. All because a BBC leading journalist didn't get a proper answer from Salmond and asked again for it. No people have been harried as traitors, scum and rubbished. None of this antic comes from the NO side nor do you see Yes hoardings, posters, etc destroyed like the crazed separatists are doing.The other daft thing is that in an independent Scotland it doesn't mean the SNP will be the dictators. Another one of the three main Unionist parties could win a future election but be stuck with all the cras headaches that well surface
Intimidation has been the rigour unlike normal elections and is a damn disgrace. Many are too cautious about stating their stance knowing how they will be treated. Well they tried their nonsense with me when they took over the pedestrianised Buchanan Street but I got verbally stuck into the Brigadoon loony bin modern day Jacobites. Salmond has said one single vote of a win is enough well I say the same from my side and like many of the No people who are reticent to speak out will have the chance to give the bully boys a knock out.
For all their yelling, lies, sneering and threatening I remain quietly confident that my side will be the majority on Thursday. And you know what? In a No vote the Scots parliament would have even more powers given to it by the UK and I bet Salmond and is tartan loonies will claim they made that happen!
PROUD TO BE SCOTTISH
PROUD TO BE BRITISH
Let's suppose the vote goes to the "Yes" camp in Thursday's election. Scotland becomes independent of the rest of the UK on a set date (not sure, I haven't heard what date that would be).
So--- who's gonna be in charge, and--- do they have a workable plan?
Pretty much what Czechoslovakia did when that country turned into the Czech Republic and Slovakia. You have common committees going through all the details of the divorce settlement. This will bind up most of the bureaucratic resources in both countries for the next few years, don't expect much in the line of policy and law change for a while. The Less United Kingdom is going to be more inward-looking for the period (like what happened with Germany when West Germany gobbled up East Germany, though that process was much more complicated).
The Scot-free Kingdom, much like the Czech Republic before it, will have to re-invent their nationality, name, flag, anthem, the works. By comparison Slovakia had, and Scotland would have, the package pretty much readymade. The "Czech Republic" (Česká republika) name was a compromise, there had never been a country with that name. Somewhat jarringly the formal English name is "Czech Republic", not "the Czech Republic", but the real battle was in Czech. The parts known in English as Bohemia and Moravia (and a rump part of Silesia), are known as Čechy, Morava and Slezsko respectively. Calling the country Čechy would upset the Moravians (Moravian nationalists wanted the name Czechomoravia) and the Silesians, taking the rump part of the Czech and Slovak name for Czechoslovakia, Československo, that is Česko, was rejected as too ugly. Some use it though, including yours truly.
The flag was easy, the Czechs simply appropriated the Czechoslovak flag. The Slovaks didn't like that so much, but they didn't put up much of a fight. Something similar could happen here.
I assume that there will be new elections, come a Yes, both in Scotland and the Non-Scottish Kingdom. There are parlaments in London and Edinburgh, but they were elected under the aegis of the soon-to-dissolved United Kingdom. Letting politicians of the past decide the countries' futures wouldn't be right.
Prof. Ilya Somin (…over at the Volokh Conspiracy — a well-known "hotbed" of conservatism!) mentions, and discusses, the interim constitution proposed by the current Scottish government: A constitution 'for an independent Scotland that would likely be adopted by the Scottish parliament should the “yes” side prevail.' (see here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/09/16/the-scottish-governments-proposed-interim-constitution-for-an-independent-scotland/))
@rj: I didn't read your post… There are so many reasons already for me to be opposed to the "Yes" position that I could easily have sustained the knee-jerk response to your "logic" and its expression…and kept my original opinion.
But the temptation is strong! (Not, to read your posts — your ability to mangle English in a "too clever by half" manner has waned…; but to react to them, since you've never adequately explained your animus.) If you, indeed, were representative of the Scots, I'd be sorely tempted to say "Good luck!" and (…is this an Americanism?) "Don't let the door hit you [on the ass] on your way out…" (which only means, "Don't dawdle!")
I confess: I don't really know what some of your countrymen are thinking… Can you tell me what their grievances are? (If I already missed it, my apologies. But that's still mostly your own fault… :) )
Oakdale-- maybe you SHOULD read Howie's post. Surprisingly, he doesn't mangle the English language in this latest offering. I don't know if he engaged and used Spell-Check or if he had an editor look it over or he just took extra care, but-- this time around his post is surprisingly readable.
Scotland would be granted full independence in 2016; not sure if it'd be 18th of September or not.
The Scottish Government proposes that Scotland’s Independence Day will be on 24 March 2016.
None of this antic comes from the NO side nor do you see Yes hoardings, posters, etc destroyed like the crazed separatists are doing.
Take off your blinkers, you are either blind or deliberately ignoring the trouble that the no lot cause. The shouting eejits are equal on both sides as are the defacing of yes/no signs and posters. Much worse are the assaults and threats that come almost exclusively from the no side.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FA9hoemA.jpg&hash=7e0caeda74406679ecc21ca626ee3961" rel="cached" data-hash="7e0caeda74406679ecc21ca626ee3961" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/A9hoemA.jpg)
Another assault on Sunday evening by two no supporting yobs on a "yes" street artist in Edinburgh. See you don't mention the "loyalists" (we know who they are don't we), who because of their intimidation, forced the SSP to cancel their meeting in Drumchapel last night. Funny that.
In a No vote the Scots parliament would have even more powers given to it by the UK
More powers my arse. believe that and you will believe anything. We've had our jam tomorrow promises before, they never materialise.
Take away their Viagra. Do it today.
:zip:
Very well, the big day is approaching. When results will be known? the very same day?
Here we have so call "projections" (that can only be published the moment the voting has finished). Those are usually very approximated to definitive results.
When results will be known? the very same day?
The final constituency result is expected between 5 and 6 am on Friday morning. It could be all over before that result comes in though.
The show ain't over until the constabulary has been called in to break up the fistfights at the pub.
Judging from posts here and elsewhere, I expect that the sentence above may have more than a little truth to it. Sort of like what would happen here if Green Bay and Chicago were to make it to the Super Bowl.
The World, according to RJH.....
YES = (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/satan003.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/satan003.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/satan003.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/satan003.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/satan003.gif)
NO = (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/angel010.gif)
[glow=blue,2,300]How will Scotland Vote? [/glow]
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uVNFpPPqa8[/VIDEO]
[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9n1LmR4UvVQ[/VIDEO]
[glow=blue,2,300]Scotland, In Scotland's Hands! [/glow]
Kind of laughable coming from Smiley re me. Especially coming from a country where the people do not run things it is the corporates. Anyway onto more practical things.
I am afraid that Luxor has let his enthusiasm colour the practical matter of trouble during the referendum tactics. I said that both sides had negatives bbut stand by what i said about the intimidation and ire of the Yes people. They outumber on the net when it comes to low stuff. Equally on the net time after time NO posters and signs either destroyed or superimposed by Yes items. The MP Jim Murphy treated disgracefully in public which went well over heckling. An idiot inches from his face, cursing and threating anger. The intimidation of Milliband and much earlier the treatment the UKIP leader got in Edinburgh by nationalist supporters. Galloway having his life threatened and so it goes on. However none of this is being dished out by No against the Yes lot. Luxor would find it very difficult to balance that out. Even in rural Perthshire they wrecked hoardings put up by a farmer. There is a sad undercurrent on the Yes side that Salmond does nothing about because he things he is right in everything and no-one else counts. He lied about the NHS and in fact his government dished out money for it to local authorities to include private use. He lied about Scotland never getting the government it voted for. As i pointed out (again for Luxor's info!) on 2 occasions since the second Wordl War, Scotland voted Tory and the UK got a Tory government and 8 times it voted Labour and we got a Labour UK government. That is called truth and democracy!
The polls show a country deeply divided but Salond has no consideration for that it is just sheer hypocrisy and personal aggrandisment that he portrays perfection and anyone opposing is almost a traitor. Well the mob element not only show that they prove it! Many folk are too frightened to say they do not want a separate Scotland because of the attitude they get and cannot handle. In a Yes win there will be around half the population who are struck somewhere in a situation they don't want to be in. Equally in a No win there will be a slight difference in that Devo-Max giving more powers will be brought in and thus reducing the other side.
The SNP would also have a problem with a "Scottish Defence Force" because only a tiny number of present serving military want to be in it so I will encourage The Boys' Brigade and the Scout Movement to volunteer! The two strutting pals Salmond and his pain in the backside Sturgeon should get their act together. Salmond has been going flat out and admitting at the same time that a No vote would put the thing on the back burner for a long time. Over the same weekend Sturgeon when asked about a No win said they would immediately start the thing again! The SNP is also being dishonest in zipping themselves about being republican orientated not wanting to loe votes and show an political immorality for a stance at any price.
Finally, here is an interesting bit of news. Bookmakers are going for a No win and you don't get poor lawyers or bookies!
Psssssst..........RJ....I love Corporations....I used to own one, & proud to have employed over 80 co-workers.........Corporations big or small employ people, & account for over 85% of all jobs.
So, you..RJH, as the voice for Mother England, & the voice of Anti-Independence, tell us why do you hate Corporations & Banks again, & how would your Mother England fare without Corporations & Banks, that has always ruled Her every move -- a fact that you can't deny?
After all, you want Scotland to continue to prop your Mother England up, or rather as you insist...Great Britain.
United Kingdom = [glow=blue,2,300]ENGLAND, [/glow][glow=black,2,300]SCOTLAND, [/glow] WALES, & ULSTER.
Britain = [glow=white,2,300]ENGLAND, [/glow] [glow=white,2,300]WALES, [/glow] & ULSTER.
Britain is supposed to be the biggest of the British isles, thus Great Britain. Being now a geographical term there is no room for any part of Ireland (which, if there had been any symmetry to this, should have been Lesser Britain), but would include Scotland.
Scotland wasn't part of the Roman conquest, though this was from before Scotland became the Scots' lands.
Going further afield than the ancient Romans, 'Yes' in Scotland could mean 'maybe' for Chinese companies (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2014-09/18/content_18617865.htm)
As Scotland votes on Thursday on the question of independence, the whole world is watching—and that includes China.
Independence could mean uncertainty for Chinese companies, so they might invest less in the United Kingdom generally in the short term, experts said.
Premier Li Keqiang was asked about the referendum during a visit in June. Li said he wanted a "strong, prosperous and united United Kingdom".
That message was echoed by Vice-Finance Minister Zhu Guangyao, who said stability was vital for foreign investors. Zhu commented after a UK-China investment meeting in London earlier this month.
According to advisory firm CrossBorder Capital, investors have pulled money out of the UK at the fastest pace since the financial crisis of 2008 amid fears that Scots will say "yes" to independence and trigger a broader political crisis.
That is just saying that the first couple years after a divorce would be lean years, as all the fear, uncertainty, doubt will be sorted out.
Final post before the vote: (went out celebrating Scotland's independence a day early, and have subsequently forgotten how to post a video)
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RPaJhlIIYjM
United Kingdom = ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, WALES, & ULSTER.
Hrm, I think I can make that 25% better.
United Kingdom = ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, WALESSee? It looks better already.
I wonder if Scotland going its own away will eventually lead to Northern Ireland (Ulster was originally larger than Northern Ireland is now) breaking away and joining the Republic, where it belongs.
And there's the Shetland Islands, full of oil....
The pawned islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shetland#Pawned_to_Scotland)...
but stand by what i said about the intimidation and ire of the Yes people.
You can stand by anything you like. It doesn't disguise the fact you are talking utter nonsense though.
The facts outweigh your skewed version of what is going on here.
Elections, Scottish style - draw your own conclusions (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2760039/Salmond-s-bullies-hit-blind-man-face-just-supporting-No-campaign.html)
Former Merseyside council leader Marie Rimmer charged over alleged assault at Scottish independence polling station. (http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/former-merseyside-council-leader-marie-7795001)
Surprised the daily fail missed that one. (Not really) (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink.gif)
One way or another, tomorrow the United Kingdom will be much more the Not-United Kingdom.
Oh dear. Luxor omitted to mention an SNP councillor who was fined recently for an incident. Considering that in general the NO Campaign has been very much different from the rag tags on the Yes lot tearing down No stuff, destroying hoardings and being generally belligerent it is hardly surprising that most people keep their opinions to themselves. Salmond lied about the NHS, EEC, currency and just about everything in-between.Being a Unionist with a capital U and unafraid of anyone I stand by my corner. One thing that has been an education is the number of mental midgets who worship Salmond as if he is Moses. The vast majority of wrecking, intimidating, trying to get NO public meetings off the street and such childish behaviour has unfortunately been in the Yes corner. Not saying it is the general way they all act but far too many would-be modern Jacobites!
Celebrate what you like Colonel the trouble is what is happeing here couldn't happen in the ex-colonies so I do hope one day there will be democracy in the subtle dictatorship.
Oh dear. Luxor omitted to mention an SNP councillor who was fined recently for an incident.
Told you before I don't care what the SNP do. Nobody is voting for the SNP, it's a
referendum.
As for the rest of your blah, blah, blah. Pure waffle of the highest order, not that I expect anything else. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
Fined for an INCIDENT?
What did he do, Put on a silly hat and a sash?
.....what is happeing here couldn't happen in the ex-colonies so I do hope one day there will be democracy in the subtle dictatorship.
What we have here, with all it's faults, & with all it's shortcomings, America is the only place in the World for us proud Americans.
Mini-Dictatorships like Obama & his ilk will come, & they will go, but America -- as founded back 238 years ago ---- is still going proud & strong ---
under the rule of law ....
'OUR CONSTITUTION' --
much to your personal chagrin -- & it will endure long, long after all present here have turned to dust & bones.
BTW..... we don't envy in the very least what you have there.
You're happy with that, so you keep it all to yourselves..thank you, but no thank you ...... (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/adoreen7.gif)
No, we here have no craving for what form of democracy that you have, & if we did, we'd move there to have it, always knowing if we wanted, we can come back here to open arms any time we wished.
We wouldn't want
your type of democracy either, because we prefer to the Checks & Balances we have within our Constitutional System ...... within
our-- [glow=green,2,300]
Constitutional Republic.[/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/signsandflags2.gif)
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/exitstageleft.gif) I hope you enjoy your 'New' Scotland. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/exitstageright.gif)
I hope your elected servants serve you well.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif) [glow=blue,4,400]May God bless & protect Scotland, now & forever!!! [/glow] (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
RJH....I suggest you seek medical help .... that shallow wheezin' sounds none too good ole man. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BigGrin02.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/asswave.gif)
Ot's the middle of the night and the NO Campaign is in front and doing well. Luxor is repeating that rubbish about it not being an SNP thing. Really? considering they were the party that proposed the Referendum in the Scottish Parliament in the first place there wouldn't be a vote but for them. Have already said this but Luxor falls back on wafffle himself in place of common sense and real purpose. On the other hand it may be a surge of disappointment and frustration that his lot of banana tartanites are getting stuffed just as I stated they would. In view of what is presently happening he cannot come out withj sense bu like the hordes of would-be non Nationalists talk gibberish. If you are wanting to be typical of the mindset that followed the SNP arrogant and intimidating band wagon then fair enough. We live in a democracy and cannot stop people being ful of guff!
Salmond the SNP Leader was so full of himself as he always is. There would be a resounding Yes vote and Scotland will have spoken - well Scotland is speaking and his lies and bluster as well as failed economics/currency answer gets him slapped. Think I will keep my Union Flag pole outside the upstairs window until the final result is in. Maybe he and that female arrogant, Sturgeon are out somewhere looking for the masive majority they have lost somewhere. So sulk away separatists.
And meantime I will wait until the final is in and then a celebration meal in a posh restaurant and my equally celebration holiday break. You tried Luxor and anyone else but too many people were being frightened by the Brigadoon street marauders! :cheers: :hat: :up:
Ot's the middle of the night and the NO Campaign is in front and doing well. Luxor is repeating that rubbish about it not being an SNP thing. Really? considering they were the party that proposed the Referendum in the Scottish Parliament in the first place there wouldn't be a vote but for them. Have already said this but Luxor falls back on wafffle himself in place of common sense and real purpose. On the other hand it may be a surge of disappointment and frustration that his lot of banana tartanites are getting stuffed just as I stated they would. In view of what is presently happening he cannot come out withj sense bu like the hordes of would-be non Nationalists talk gibberish. If you are wanting to be typical of the mindset that followed the SNP arrogant and intimidating band wagon then fair enough. We live in a democracy and cannot stop people being ful of guff!
Salmond the SNP Leader was so full of himself as he always is. There would be a resounding Yes vote and Scotland will have spoken - well Scotland is speaking and his lies and bluster as well as failed economics/currency answer gets him slapped. Think I will keep my Union Flag pole outside the upstairs window until the final result is in. Maybe he and that female arrogant, Sturgeon are out somewhere looking for the masive majority they have lost somewhere. So sulk away separatists.
And meantime I will wait until the final is in and then a celebration meal in a posh restaurant and my equally celebration holiday break. You tried Luxor and anyone else but too many people were being frightened by the Brigadoon street marauders! :cheers: :hat: :up:
Congrats Mr. Howie. :cheers:
Who would have thought it. Dressing up in a silly hat and a sash and marching in the street convinced the voters!
Now how about keeping quiet and not gloating.
Glasgow voted yes, silly hats and all, but the rest of Scotland mostly did not, so Norway wouldn't get a new neighbour after all.
You don't have a successful campaign when even Edinburgh, the would-be capital, voted no 61%-39%, one of the lowest yes votes in the country, barely above the border areas and outlying islands.
Scotland decides [no] (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/events/scotland-decides/results)
I guess it is the time to congratulate Labour and give condolences to Cameron, Scottish separation would mean dominance of the Conservatives in perpetuity, or maybe a little bit shorter.
The result is a. No vote, preventing disaster for both Scotland and the rest of the UK.
So no non-united UK, Belfrager.
Details here:
www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results (http://www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results)
I guess it is the time to congratulate Labour and give condolences to Cameron, Scottish separation would mean dominance of the Conservatives in perpetuity, or maybe a little bit shorter.
No, Jax, that's not true - you should not have paid so much attention to the SNP propaganda; Labour would have won in the UK without the Scottish Vote in all the "Tony Blair" elections. There are many floating voters, including me.
True, though I stay with the quip 'a little shorter than perpetuity' The British system seems geared towards letting governments hang on a little (or a lot) too long, the first past the post, long terms, and government choosing election date allow them to hang on even years after they have lost their charm.
It doesn't sound much like SNP propaganda, not good one anyway, that their southern brethren should suffer through years of Conservative rulership. In my living memory Conservatives has been a fringe party in Scotland, SNP and Scots generally would presumably prefer Labour in power to the Conservatives. Of course, Scotland would give little boost to Labour if the Scots vote SNP anyway. We'll see next election.
Anyway, that's two referenda done and over with. The first one, ditching the silly first past the post system, was defeated 68%-32%. This one was defeated 55%-45%. We'll see how the third one, leaving the EU, will fare. My guess is a hat trick for conservativism, "we'll keep what we've got, thank you".
55% No to 45% Yes.... That's a defeat for an Independent Scotland-- for now.
It occurred to me, as I heard about this on the radio in the van this morning, that next time out just maybe the "Yes" people might smarten up a bit. Imagine what the outcome might have been if they could have voiced an actual plan about what an Independent Scotland would look like, and how, pray tell, they planned to make that happen. As it is they sounded more than a little like the "Occupy" protesters we have here. As many different ideas as there are people to voice them, and no clear idea about what tomorrow would look like if they won.
You know, here in the 1860s we had a bloody war between the North and the South. The Southern states lost the war, but, if they had won they at least had some idea about how to make their government work, what they would use for money, how they would put together an army and navy and so on. The CSA did at least have a working government during their short and rather stormy existence. I don't recall the SNP putting forth any sort of actual plan for the next day if they won independence. They were just sort of hoping it would all sort out somehow.
mjm . . The SNP did give a plan but unfortunately for their cause there were very real financial problems which they could not resolve and thus discuss. That left them vulnerable to the charges of proposing a risky adventure and refusing to answer the big questions.
I put that as neutrally as I can because I don't want to rehash the whole business. In fact I stayed largely away from discussions in this forum to avoid loosing some friends here. I admit to some lapses, but I did, on the whole, avoid contributing to the vitriol (here).
I dont think the independence thing will surface again for a while, certainly not in my lifetime anyway.
So no non-united UK, Belfrager.
You're going to give them all you've been forced to promise at the referendum and much more and it will always mean a less-united kingdom.
Or, probably, you will forget all the promises you made and the independentists will create you such confusion in the streets that will be not pretty to see.
Once-United Kingdom no matter the cosmetics.
Ah, and congratulations to the Yes side. Such results against a campaign of fear and intimidation made Scotland and their People stronger in their way towards the Independence. You were able to make the occupiers to shake in panic. It's just a matter of time.
So no non-united UK, Belfrager.
You're going to give them all you've been forced to promise at the referendum and much more and it will always mean a less-united kingdom.
Or, probably, you will forget all the promises you made and the independentists will create you such confusion in the streets that will be not pretty to see.
Once-United Kingdom no matter the cosmetics.
Ah, and congratulations to the Yes side. Such results against a campaign of fear and intimidation made Scotland and their People stronger in their way towards the Independence. You were able to make the occupiers to shake in panic. It's just a matter of time.
That's rubbish Belgrade, I know you have an anarchic front back & side to you but adopting a federal form of goverment does not result in disunity . . As for "The Occupier" that is merely proxy paranois on your side :)
Well project fear won in the end. Proud of those of us who voted for independence, the rest of them... well not so much. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink.gif) But I'll get over it.
Those who voted for the status quo, believed they were doing the right thing. I think they will learn in time that they were lied to.
I'll pick myself up and carry on and I will have my revenge on my local MP at the ballot box. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
adopting a federal form of goverment does not result in disunity . .
You're not the US, you're not Brazil, you're not even Germany, you're the UK and a more federalist oriented organization is not compatible with your until yesterday form of Identity.
It's not Belfrager against Great Britain (that's another story and strictly between me and the English) but what any international analyst, if not engaged to London government, are saying all over the world.
Belgium, Spain and many other country's governments, countries artificially united under certain forms that represents no more the reality, are exulting with the referendum results because it could postpone for a while their disintegration. So it is the EU that can't even deal with the actual ones even less with a myriad of new ones.
Not for long. Nothing can stop the winds of change.
Europe will not win anything with it's total disintegration but how to deny each one's right to self determination? is better together everything you have to say? will not be enough.
Glasgow voted yes, silly hats and all, but the rest of Scotland mostly did not, so Norway wouldn't get a new neighbour after all.
But Edinburgh, the city Howie rags on, went overwhelmingly for "No" Maybe he should consider a move?
Bel, maybe a bit of a history lesson is in order. One thing about the way government is done in the UK-- it isn't the way it was done way back when. They've gone through a long line of changes, from the days when kings ruled by divine right to today when they have the form of democratic government they have now. Changing to a more federal system will, at least, be likely to be less bloody than when they tried to make the King listen to Parliament the first few times around.
I guess I have to give the old German socialist I had occasion to work with a point. He said government is an experiment and we keep seeing what works until we hit the right combination. He may be right about it being an experiment, though he was likely wrong about his proposed solution.
The voices in my head keep telling me that Salmond & gang never expected to get a majority for outright independence ( and they were probably surprised by how close they got ), hence the apparent vagueness. Scaring Westminster into giving them more autonomy was probably the plan all along and by the look of it, that's probably going to happen.
Bel, maybe a bit of a history lesson is in order.
Indeed, we just have to determine who needs the lesson.
I'm sorry but you are far away from European reality as much as I am from American one. I know perfectly what I'm saying, how the English got scared with the possibility of their United Kingdom to finish (and it has already finished
in facto even if not
in jure) is something that you don't see everyday and makes the entire continental Europe to smile.
England has turned much more isolated with this result where everyone in Europe sees the result of menaces, a strategy of fear and false promises.
Those speeches, my God... beyond pathetic. "Yes" had a major victory, that you can be sure mjm.
Wait for the next episodes and you'll see that I'm right.
@Macallan
I can't believe 45% thought that sounded like a good idea. Seemingly bad for both in the long-run, to this ignorant nobody anyway. That at least makes more sense.
@Macallan
I can't believe 45% thought that sounded like a good idea. Seemingly bad for both in the long-run, to this ignorant nobody anyway. That at least makes more sense.
Many of them probably just had enough of some clowns in London making all the important decisions for them. Many probably feel dominated by the big neighbour in the south. But then again, this whole united kingdom thing started with the king of Scotland becoming king of England ( and Ireland ) as well, not the other way around :right:
Should have told them to vote for English independence :left:
( and don't tell me you wouldn't vote for TX and OK leaving the US :whistle: )
this whole united kingdom thing started with the king of Scotland becoming king of England ( and Ireland ) as well, not the other way around
I was thinking that when mjm made his comment but didn't have the time to fact check it so I left it alone. European monarchs get a little confusing for me, they're all related somehow.
( and don't tell me you wouldn't vote for TX and OK leaving the US :whistle: )
I'd like to see the day the vote could be taken. Which is why what you said makes more sense to me, I suppose.
True about the king of Scotland becoming king of England and all. Howsomever, history shows that the Stuarts didn't keep the job long. Had a run-in with Parliament along about the time Charles the First was trying to be the unquestioned King who dare not be disturbed by any Parliamentary shenanigans, and ended up losing his head over the deal. Charles the 2nd got to sit on the throne for a while but not long, and the throne eventually passed to William, who fought the Jacobites till the Crown was firmly in Protestant hands-- where it remains today.
Stand by. Re-installation in progress, this may take several minutes.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bx4_zAjIYAAFnEH.jpg)
Well as i said we won.
And what do you know, Luxor is going to vote for who at the next election to get his own back? Kind of leaves him with the Greens (smile) or the SNP he claimed he didn't generally support. As for fear being the winner I can understand that being said if a Yes man as the security man at my local co-op store was gutted and hardly talk (?). We were being constantly told by Yes we on the No side were going to get walloped and that it would be a resounding rout. Trouble is that the Yes got carried away with all their posters, flags and posters on windows and such but as one canny Glaswegian said on Channel 4 News he wasn't worried and smiling said all the empty windows were the No people. A stretch I know but more than an element of truth.
Now we can get back to a normal life and how glad I am that television will move on from the pointless continual hype that bored us all to death. They just repeated everything daily so all of us onboth sides can relax and get on with life. Now for that holiday break"
Kind of leaves him with the Greens (smile) or the SNP he claimed he didn't generally support.
Well it's not as if I will ever vote for any labour or liberal candidate ever again, (nor tory, not that I ever would) and I will be making sure my local MP and my MSP get told to their faces directly. I hope they both are ready for what is coming to them, because I'm not going to be very polite.
If voting SNP is the way to do it then yes, that is what I will do. Heck I might even join them just to piss you off. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ThumbGood2.gif)
We saw what being part of the union means, in George square last night. Vile, bigoted, loyalist Neanderthals on the rampage with their nazi salutes. Scotland's shame, right enough. I dread to think what they would have done if they had lost.
Enjoy your holiday rjh, but it won't be back to normal, the UK Parliament has to deliver on the pledge made on it's behalf by the the party leaders, and do it in good time and good order.
I look forward to more powers being given to the Scottish Parliament. It would reduce some of that anti Westminster whinging that some of you folks enjoy and hopefully make the Scottish Government more accountable for their tendency to over-spend.
Things can hold it up; for example a solution to the West Lothian question needs to be found and we know that the Labour partyrefer to keep hold of that bit of non- democratic behaviour.
More importantly, since the result of the referendum was to stay in the Union, the increase in powers for the Scottish Government needs to ensure not only the large Scottish wish for just that but also elements that bind the Union together. So it won't be Devo-max, as the nats would like,, there will be substantial reserved taxation and responsibilies. Corporation tax is one such an example. That alone could see the SNP Government crying foul with the potential for holding up the whole thing.
The other reasons for delay are, of course, the shear inefficiency of Goverment, any Government. Anyone who has worked in an organisation used to meeting deadlines could do it, but I doubt our politicians can. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.
As a Brit that oscillated between Brit to English and back again, I want those pledges to be enacted in full. That is regardless of whether I agree with them all. A promise has been made and I expect (want) it to be kept.
We saw what being part of the union means, in George square last night. Vile, bigoted, loyalist Neanderthals on the rampage with their nazi salutes. Scotland's shame, right enough. I dread to think what they would have done if they had lost.
Now you know that's not true as you would no doubt point out for the ultra extremist behaviour of some claiming to be on the Yes side. Wait till this time next year when Rangers get back in the Premier Division, and we'll probably see the same sort of thing with a different excuse.
You're hurting right now which is understandable, but the aim should now be to get things sorted, not prolong bitterness.
In the meantime, Scotland's prosperity continues (http://glasgow.stv.tv/articles/292485-bae-systems-to-put-200m-scotstoun-development-contracts-to-tender/), and several thousand Scottish ship builders can relax. This would not have happened if there had not been a No vote.[/QUOTE
Wait till this time next year when Rangers get back in the Premier Division,
That's the very lot that was on the rampage last night. I'm a rangers supporter and they sicken me.
Wait till this time next year when Rangers get back in the Premier Division,
That's the very lot that was on the rampage last night. I'm a rangers supporter and they sicken me.
I'm a Bournemouth football supporter myself. Our supporters don't do that sort of thing. We cant get our zimmer frames to go fast enough.
'Nuff said.
Our supporters don't do that sort of thing. We cant get our zimmer frames to go fast enough.
:))
Can I firstly say to string that the problem will not be a problem! All three main parties have agreed on further changes and what is being thrown is is that parliament does noit know what to do with England. The Scottish question is straightforward but it is absolutely wrong for not just Scots but Ulster and Welsh MPs to decide on purely English issues. English people have no great desire for a parliament for their own and what Westminster needs to do is correct this wrong I mention.
As for Luxor's seemignly balanced points that is actually not the case actually. The picture is being given that YES people were so sel-disciplined and well mannered and that has certainly NOT been the case. Time after time it went far beyond normal election routine and No posters either destroyed or painted over, hoardings by indiviuals destroyed. At NO public things in the street a concerted attack. These things were not routine heckling (such as PM John Major getting routine heckling) this was far more vicious and disgraceful. The former Cabinet Minister, Murphy's treatments was not just shicking but a damnable disregard for normal heckling and such. He was called a Ped the fg---and other words thrown at him along with eggs, people going right up into his face and screaming abuse at him. The year before the UKIP Leader and that threateneing young crowd of YES fanatics trying to force him off the street and he ended up in a pub for protecxtion. He won a European seat up here which shows that there were those of that ilk but these other clowns don't know what democracy is. Virtually all the incidents could be atributed to the YES brigade. Now to the Glasgow incident and incident for a broader picture.
Firstly due to YES starting to treat George Square as their domain was a niggle to many NO people including Luxor's Rangers associates. Unfortunately what Luxor did no include here was the matter of the YES lot climbing all over the large Cenotaph in George square in front of the City Chambers. That was a disgusting thing in itself. I can appreciate Luxor's gutted feeling having lost substantially and any keen supporter os a matter will feel that but one hoped he would not have fell into the niggles corner of others. The crowd that tramped to the BBC Scottish HQ and acted like "weans" over something that was daft is yet another example of young fanaticism. However in fairness he has the sense to have a sigh and then get on with his life loke all of us.
I dare say, I would have been greatly disappointed if we NO lot had been trounced but astute enough not to fall back on mouthings from Salmond after his resignation. He was a clever cookie and with that added sleekitness and a clever cookie but doesn't make him Moses. I too will get on with my life like Luxor with the following caveats. There is no wide appetite in Wales for independence nor in Ulster. Scotland will get the extra powers and may well take longer than a afew months. For thos who lost and gripe at such may I remind that the Dr Goebells of the YES side (Salmond) had said that everything in an independent Scotland would be done in 19 months so shows a different slant to that argument.
Meanwhile my week in Ulster is to follow and then when to go back to the Netherlands. :)
Unfortunately what Luxor did no include here was the matter of the YES lot climbing all over the large Cenotaph in George square in front of the City Chambers.
Ah how predictable, always the other guys fault with you isn't it. You should be captaining the Starship Enterprise, so often that you set your shields to deflect. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/FacePalm2.gif)
The people in the square were having quite a civilised vigil, but the loyalists orchestrated their plans online and went there to cause nothing but trouble.
Eleven arrests after loyalist No supporters' descend on George Square (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/eleven-arrests-after-loyalist-no-supporters-descend-on-george-square.25379996)
They're shouting at us, calling us scum. It's awful to come here and feel threatened (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/theyre-shouting-at-us-calling-us-scum-its-awful-to-come-here-and-feel-threatened.25386301)
George Square Trouble: The night our readers became reporters. (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/george-square-trouble-the-night-our-readers-became-reporters.1411314286)
Pity they have taken the video clips off those pages, guess they are now criminal evidence.
Luxor's Rangers associates.
I can assure you they are no associates of mine, but I'll not be far wrong in saying they are associates of yours. Rangers "fans" (I use the term loosely) who shout your favourite war-cry of "no surrender", The same clowns that were marching with their flutes the week before the referendum..
Oh you drift into the corner I was afraid you might. The security guard at my local co-op was in the same depressed mood. Mind you he could never answer my questions on how Scotland votes, economy and much else. I will accept that many in the Yes side were intelligent but there was a wide romantic and emotional thing rather than a deep common sense amongst many of your ilk. I also kind of expect you to be petty about the Edinburgh event. The one your people had was very much outnumbered by last saturday which you choose to ignore. Constantly No people were called scum, cursed and swore at and that Brigadoons had no respect for the Cenotaph is ignored. One can understand those of a deeper conviction with Yes being gutted but the dross that constantly interrupted No gatherings and cursed, swore and threw things are hardly something to be ignored. But if happens on the nationalist side that is of course nothing but outside of that that is a different logic. That you choose to be so knuckle-dragger and miscall the speeches and parade in Auld Reekie (Edinburgh to foreigners) is of course due to you being gutted but is rather immature. It was more colourful and had more watching than your folk. Don't mind you being a bit put out because you lost so weightedly instead of what the gaulitier from the north east was drumming into you all. You try to show maturity by saying you will pock up life and get opn but just like Salmond sour grapes and sneering at what my organisation did.
I had said one could undertand the disappointment of separatists being beaten and by the margin told would be a nonsense but I would have just accepted defeat, got on with my life and hey, maybe left the place! What I wouldn't do is look for culprits be snidy and so on. One supposes with the kind of nonsense we are getting from the Yes people that so many Scots are traitors, quislings and worse is a bigger problem. It is sour grapes with bells and whistles. I respect your right and entitlement but I am not going to apologise just because we won, I was deeply involved and because of those grapes!
I respect your right and entitlement but I am not going to apologise just because we won,
Did anyone ask you to apologise? No don't think so. I just won't let you get away with making accusations about a group of people, when the polar opposite is nearer the truth. I ignored your mentioning of Cenotaph because you provided no evidence of it. But if there was (which I would never condone, no matter who done such a thing), I think throwing Nazi salutes in front of it is far more offensive. Don't you?
As for moving on after the result, I have done that already. All it took was a nice pipe full of my favourite tobacco. You should maybe try it.
I doubt much can be inferred from that riot on Glasgow whatever the cause; passions were high after the Referenidum and alcohol had played it's part. Who'd have thought that - in Glasgow of all places.!
Another example of post-Referendum passion is reported here (http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/call-to-boycott-firms-who-scared-scotland-1-3548093)
Without, if possible, the recriminations, what do our Scottish folk think of the proposed Boycott.
Without, if possible, the recriminations, what do our Scottish folk think of the proposed Boycott.
I can understand why some folk will boycott them out of principle as a lot of folk seen it as a threat. Personally I take my business to whoever gives me the best value, regardless of who they are and I can't see that changing any time soon. As we Scots are supposed to be more prudent than others, I guess most of us will do the same.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear some of you take rj seriously.
A follow-up question and a comment/question to Luxor and Mr. Howie:
1. Will we be seeing a "Neverendum"?
2. From what my Scottish friends reported (were all in the pro-Union camp and most are from Edinburgh), the Yes lot could have done better, but apparently had quite a few knuckleheads along the line of the video I am about to post. If so, I can certainly see how this hurt the Yes lot. Is this true? (Warning: Turn your volume down)
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciPu4DnKBuM[/video]
Quite lucid, compared with some of the rhetoric.
Colonel, Sir, not having been in Scotland but watching closely from afar I cannot judge if Connery had any pulling power for the SNP. His stance is somewhat vulnerable, loving Scotland so much that he chooses to live away from it without, it was claimed, paying his tax dues. Whether the latter is true I have no idea, but that was a perception.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear some of you take rj seriously.
I think one has to, he represents the opinion of many. You take your pick and make your choice on what part you agree with.
That's the fun of having exposure to diverse opinions.
Will we be seeing a "Neverendum"?
Watch this space... (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BigGrin.gif)
the Yes lot could have done better, but apparently had quite a few knuckleheads along the line of the video I am about to post.
There's bound to be one knuckle head somewhere, though I doubt that noisy video is proof of any. Oh and
James Bond Sean Connery is an irrelevance to most of us. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Yes.gif)
@string and @Luxor: Thank you both for your answers.
Kinda figured my friends were being, as you all say it, "cheeky". lol :cheers:
The voices in my head keep telling me that Salmond & gang never expected to get a majority for outright independence ( and they were probably surprised by how close they got ), hence the apparent vagueness. Scaring Westminster into giving them more autonomy was probably the plan all along and by the look of it, that's probably going to happen.
That's what it felt like all along. Who calls for an independence referendum without any incident triggering it and expects to win? I also wonder how many "Yes" voters were thinking along the same lines.
There will be a number of fall-outs from the Referendum. One will be a large increase in the powers and responsibilities devolved to Scotland. The SNP posture is that this should be the so- called Devo- Max where virtually everything is devolved except defence and foreign policy. When they don't get that they will claim foul but in fact it has not been promised. The result of the Referendum was to maintain the Union and, if Cameron does his job properly, those new powers will be scaled to ensure that the UK can perform it's role and will need sufficient funding to do that.
After the dust has settled, the SNP will yet to inch toward independence while the UK will continue to demonstrate the advantages of working together, increasing Scotland dependence on England.
That's the essence of the game and that's what will happen.
When is the next vote scheduled?
I'd like to see another one where the "Good Guys" win, instead of the "Villains". (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BigToothSmile.gif)
Mel Gibson hopes to wrap up Braveheart 2: The Referendum in time for the Christmas season 2015.
Well Luxor I don't drink or smoke so pointless advice and by the way the group in George Square that you have fallen back to (small lot they were too and your side have had their share of wrong activity remember) were following comments made elsewhere that many of the Yes people especially the more aggressive and they were about in Scotland were acting like Hitlers hence the mock stuff. It suits you to say what you did. There has been a lot of bad grace since the Referendum and indeed hints from Salmond and other figures in subtle criticism of the 55 and overs voting No. And here is an interesting bit of news.
Stan Blackley who is th ex-deputy director of communities at the YES Campaign took a step backwards and said that the Yes Campaign failure be finger pointed to the SNP and it's meddling. It is also interesting that an SNP member of the Scots Parliament has resigned from the SNP thus cutting the majority closely. That big mouth, Tommy Sheridan and his wee Bolshie party are encouraging people to join the SNP. Having done in his former comrades in the Scottish Socialist party then started another rump jumps on every bandwagon that comes along. His wee bunch ans the SSP have no reps at all but can mouth off as Yes mouths. Don't get me started about that leading Green Party yakker, Harvey. On BBC Scotland 2014 (Tues night) he made a disgraceful reference to The Queen.
Now there is this daft "45" movement being rolled out and so much for the Yes idea of democracy, decisions made and cannot get on with it. They lost so somehow we need a new idea on democracy! Another little subtle bit of propaganda is this constant statistical other stuff we get from Nats on 45% of Scots. Yet another wee bit of a subtle propaganda. However for a Moment let us look at this bit of propaganda which I say is not accurate.
The Yes got 44.7% of votes cast but that does not make 44.7% of eligible voters in actuality. Of a turnout of 84.59% that makes 37.8% of registered voters. As 3% did not register it's only 36.7% making the gap wider. You would not think of this being a fact if we listened to the grudge propaganda that is being emitted. So the No side was even further in front. Too many separatists just repeated some of the would-be Feuhrer's throwaway words. Thing such as the utter and complete lie about Scotland not ever getting the UK government it votes for . That one I have already rubbished by the 10 General elections since WW2 when Scotland voted twice for the Conservatives and the government was Tory and the 8 time it voted Labour and we got a Lab government. He also went on sneering at the Scots Tories as if they were somehow a tiny rump and he could rubbish that group yet at the last general Election with over 400,000 votes the Scots Tories were not far behind the SNP vote! Add the Labour and LibDems gives yet another different slant.
I am glad that Salmond has gone along with his sneering, bullying, smart alex and domineering arrogance. He also has been very vindictive about the time it will take to allocate more powers to the Scots parliament. Kind of bemusing when the same man came out with the guff that an independent Scotland would be all done and sorted in 18 months. Well Im am glad that gradually the media is getting back to some sort of normality instead of the constant barrage and repeats of the same stuff. Luxor can have his self threatening tobacco (tut,tut!), I will sip my occasional glass of Irn Bru (sugar free one) due to health issues! :cheers:
I will sip my occasional glass of Irn Bru (sugar free one) due to health issues! :cheers:
Careful, rj, I found this recently at a site devoted to scientific research on the food industry.
Irn-Bru is a Class A drug manufactured and sold in Scotland. In consists primarily of sugar, artificial flavouring, sugar, more artificial flavouring, sugar, urine, a pinch of artificial flavouring, and sugar. It was designed by health experts in 1901 to get Scotsmen off their arses to do anything except drink.
Oh but i worked in education and a school not far off from where I live dear boy.
Have you observers noticed that Luxor is incapable of being able to reply to a detailed thread submission here?! Instead he has to fall back on the satirical bent of some time ago. Kind of tells you all something........ :up: :D
Have you noticed that rj's understanding of numbers matches his understanding of words?
The Yes got 44.7% of votes cast but that does not make 44.7% of eligible voters in actuality. Of a turnout of 84.59% that makes 37.8% of registered voters. As 3% did not register it's only 36.7% making the gap wider.
It doesn't occur to you that the folks unregistered to vote likely would have had roughly the same "No" to "Yes" ratio, if not slightly more in favor of the "Yes" owing to the fact the younger people would have been likely to vote to vote "Yes" and not be registered? That analysis seems to a desperate, transparent attempt to minimize the "Yes" vote.
Have you observers noticed that Luxor is incapable of being able to reply to a detailed thread submission here?
Did it not occur to you that I have other things to do, than rush to reply to your posts. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/omg.gif)
the group in George Square that you have fallen back to (small lot they were too and your side have had their share of wrong activity remember) were following comments made elsewhere that many of the Yes people especially the more aggressive and they were about in Scotland were acting like Hitlers hence the mock stuff.
Your usual reply, whatever the no lot did it was the yes lot's fault. What utter guff. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/rolleyes.gif)
That big mouth, Tommy Sheridan and his wee Bolshie party are encouraging people to join the SNP.
And...? It's a free country, he can encourage people to do anything he likes, why the hell would I or you even care. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Shrugs.gif)
Don't get me started about that leading Green Party yakker, Harvey. On BBC Scotland 2014 (Tues night) he made a disgraceful reference to The Queen.
A disgraceful reference to the queen, really? He was asked about Cameron's overheard conversation where he was heard to say that the old bat was purring. So he said he couldn't care what sort of animal noises came from the palace. Purring = cat = animal. Jeez if you think that's disgraceful then you really need to get out more. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/ShockedFaint.gif)
The Yes got 44.7% of votes cast but that does not make 44.7% of eligible voters in actuality. Of a turnout of 84.59% that makes 37.8% of registered voters. As 3% did not register it's only 36.7% making the gap wider.
Oh you can do maths. How clever, here have a gold :star: .
I will sip my occasional glass of Irn Bru (sugar free one) due to health issues!
Careful! It rots your teeth, that stuff. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Yes.gif)
Well you can be as smart as you like boy but it covers the attitudes being expressed by Yes people. Sour grapes is a good description. Salmond did give a sleekit jibe at older people and neither did he take a landslide of the young 15/17's. Interestingly they also couldn't make it in areas where they were supposed to have a grounding and when one of their Yes leaders made the comment about the SNP's attitude says something - then that other SNP Scottish ParliamentMember delaying his resignation until after the vote. He is now an independent Nationalist so no longer under the whop. That other mouth who will now be the Leader will have things behind the scene to contend with unlike before. She has to go along with the Unionist direction as she had to admit because people have had enough of the more aggressive people who did the Yes Campaign no favours.
I suppose it is natural to have been defeated as per the gap and general griping but that is democracy. So you do your wee dance and be as snidy as you want but you lost so get used to it although it seems the more aggressive losers cannot even superficially you are tryg to show you are not of that ilk. Of course you may be hiding your bitterness at the obvious defeat or not wishing to acknowledge the result but whatever, it is done, dusted. Like you, i will get on with life but deeply more happy of course. The dig at practical arithmetic does say something which is unfortunate for you not I!
Best of luck and I am now organising my winning break! 8)
I just want to know who taught Mr. Howie how to use emotocons? (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sectalk.com%2Fboard%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Ftrollface.gif&hash=665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" rel="cached" data-hash="665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.sectalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/trollface.gif)
Maybe the same person who taught him how to be a sore winner.
So you do your wee dance and be as snidy as you want
I suggest you turn round and look in your mirror. There you will see the one who is being snidy.
But I won't apportion blame, it's the upbringing at fault. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Whistle.gif)
Next time I hope the Scottish pro Independence will not forget to hire the DnD specialists to do the political marketing of the campaign.
You can't lose. :)
Unfortunately, you'll have no second time.
Saxons have a nice saying, you'll just have one occasion to cause a first good impression, independence referendums are like that. They will never give you a second chance.
They will never give you a second chance.
They, whoever "they" are, won't have a choice. Personally I would just declare independence and to hell with another referendum. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink2.gif)
They will never give you a second chance.
They, whoever "they" are, won't have a choice. Personally I would just declare independence and to hell with another referendum. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink2.gif)
To Hell with the majority of Scots?
Surely not!
Such passions!
To Hell with the majority of Scots?
Surely not!
Such passions!
It would be my policy before I was elected, so I would be fulfilling my manifesto. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BigGrin2.gif)
Shows how much you know tt92. I dare say that the Yes lot would have been even more sore winners. There was a whole phalanx of them strutting about with saltires, trying to destroy No street meetings and act like Rob Roy. I am not saying all of them but a jolly good number of near fanatics. They were carried away with their romantic view of Scotland. Those Yes people I know in my world(minority) are still acting like miffed children. Luxor is adopting that old idea of pipe smokers feeling they are somehow different!
Anyway the thing is past, done and dusted so the thing should be let go here.
They will never give you a second chance.
They, whoever "they" are, won't have a choice. Personally I would just declare independence and to hell with another referendum. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/Wink2.gif)
Declare ..... Never ask!!!
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FfdK2eUf.gif&hash=38fac407f8edec0f70ec78c768ae67ed" rel="cached" data-hash="38fac407f8edec0f70ec78c768ae67ed" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/fdK2eUf.gif)
Drop me a line if ya need a sharp shooter to clear the road ahead fer ya Luxor!
It would be my distinct pleasure ta grave a few Brits....
It's none of your business SF. But just to humour you ...
Actually I'm surprised at your imagined Scot-friendly stance after the vitriolic things you have said about them in the past. Presumably you have now seen the light,
... so let's hear it for the Black & Tans and their glorious history in Ireland.
But then your muddled hatred of Britain leads you apparently to all sorts of strange alliances.
You now ally yourself with the SNP, who are very left wing politically, far more left of the social minded mainstream British political parties. They adore the National Health Service and large Welfare spending and they have spoken about nationalising the Oil industry and they espouse a policy of taxing the rich more and more and more and more. Just up your street now it seems, Oh and no doubt they will go after those who avoid paying tax: all good socialistic stuff.
Have a look at the sort of people people you now so admire. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA1_jUL0gK4). By your previous standards they are commies. ... and you want to subject the Scots to that!
Don't forget to read your little red book tonight.
As for your offer of a sharp shooter, "sharp" is not exactly the word I would use.
To Hell with the majority of Scots?
Surely not!
Such passions!
It would be my policy before I was elected, so I would be fulfilling my manifesto. (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/253164678/BigGrin2.gif)
That is really too much for me to let go by.
Yes - I know the "plan" that is doing the rounds - a fairly-land wet dream as far as I'm concerned which sums up the SNP/Yes Conpaign; it's never going to happen, but I almost wish the SNP would try this particular form of political suicide.
Have a look at the sort of people people you now so admire. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA1_jUL0gK4).
Funny accent... I can understand two thirds of the words but then I get distracted until I realize that I'm listen to a continuous onomatopoeic sound and understanding nothing at all of what he says...
Kind the way rjhowie writes but in verbal mode...
Yes - I know the "plan" that is doing the rounds -
Oh come on, you can't take what Jim Sillars says (or what the press prints), to be the plan. He's always been a controversial figure since his labour party days and he doesn't make the SNP's policies. I think they are a bit more democratic than that.
Besides that, I was stating what I would do personally, not what the SNP would do.
It's not over yet. This has been going on since at least the time of William of Orange fighting the Jacobite forces, probably before then-- and I seriously don't think one attempt at the ballot box will end the conflict now. This is something that has been going on a looooonnnnnnngggggggg time, and feelings run deep on both sides.
They adore the National Health Service and large Welfare spending and they have spoken about nationalising the Oil industry and they espouse a policy of taxing the rich more and more and more and more. Just up your street now it seems, Oh and no doubt they will go after those who avoid paying tax: all good socialistic stuff.
So they sound to the left of socialist/commie/fascist (depending on what day of the week it is) Obama :left:
It's not over yet. This has been going on since at least the time of William of Orange fighting the Jacobite forces, probably before then
Celebrating a gay foreign prince's victory hundreds of years ago seems a full 20 percent more daft than anything that happens in America :left:
Um, just because he wasn't a lecherous drunk doesn't make him gay. :P
Um, just because he wasn't a lecherous drunk doesn't make him gay. :P
It's not like gays can't be lecherous drunks :right:
Yes - I know the "plan" that is doing the rounds -
Oh come on, you can't take what Jim Sillars says (or what the press prints), to be the plan. He's always been a controversial figure since his labour party days and he doesn't make the SNP's policies. I think they are a bit more democratic than that.
Besides that, I was stating what I would do personally, not what the SNP would do.
Different posts, different points. Jim Sillars may well be a carbuncle on the Yes part of the indy movement, but he remains a fellow traveler; I'd surprised if many take him seriously, excepting the late mighty leader, Uncle Alex.
But UDI - that certainly is a subject being drooled over by some SNP types.
Just to put the Referendum in a little bit of perspective for the benefit of the non-Brits here:
Look at this map (http://s16.postimg.org/44uxr6fth/Screen_Shot_2014_09_19_at_23_09_19.png). That shows the regions excluding the Shetlands that voted in the Referendum. Just 4 voted for independence, with the latter's major support coming from the urban Glasgow and Dundee.
Hardly a ringing support for independence in term of the regions.
It is also interesting to not that a relationship is indicated between "deprivation" and the Yes vote.
see here (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByTHi9uCQAArZng.jpg:large) - have fun interpreting that!
Reneging on a commitment to respect the result of the Referendum, factions within the SNP have suggested having a UDI on the basis of their manifesto for the next Scottish Election. There are legal problems with such an approach, but just imagine how the majority of the Scottish Regions would feel about being tricked down that route by a cabal of fanatics in a couple of small areas of Scotland. Not the way to a content and happy Scotland, let alone one with increased prosperity.
Um, just because he wasn't a lecherous drunk doesn't make him gay. :P
It's not like gays can't be lecherous drunks :right:
Well played. In any case, those James and Charles fellows were heterosexual lecherous drunks maintaining several mistresses, whose interests were primarily invested in their lifestyles. Willem III was interested in more state-related affairs. A cynic might say that made him a far more dangerous man. ;)
I have to say that string is perfectly right about the spread of the No vote and that as I pointed out in hard statistics it was in the 30's percentage-wise for separation. It would be so easy to dwell on history of course but in 1707 there was the same emotiona lromanticism which flew in the face of practical life. We as a nation were very poor, more or less bankrupt after the Darien Scheme so had to grasp the chance to improve as we obviously had a problem. The s-called Bonnie Prince Charlie was a drunken bum in modern terms. and the majority of Scotland especially in the Lowlands had no time for him at all. Yet again there was an example of what went on behind the scenes in a movement. Petty jealoisy even down to where particlar groups of highland clans would be near the Pretender. They also messed up the march south into England and in a state of argument and division had to go back up north where a British Army done the Jacobites in. It does irritate me often when on tv some clown will say that an engliash Army routed him at Culloden. The Jacobites could shout all the yells but they were up against a tough cookie!
Anyway as for today i do have to comment on something Luxor said about Jim Sillars the former deputy Leader of the SNP. It was NOT a case of the newspapers somehow slagging him off wrongly. Indeed, i watched him TWICE on television coming out with very hard and very left-wing rubbish along with his republicanism. At least he was honest which a lot in the Yes and especially SNP did not have th guts to admit. The man is a damn fool.
Look who else was in the Yes camp. The Scottish Socialist party.' A rump that has no representation at all. Add that liar and ex-jailed man Tommy Sheridan who left that party he started because he could not dominate (he also did them in) and started an even smaller lot. The Greens are the standard Jesus sandal lot. My fellow countrymen who wanted interdependence had to really support essentially the SNP bandwagon and even if they were not happy with some of the antics had little choice. A passing matter was a poll that referred to religion although did not get prominence as it was more constructive not to drag it in.
The Herald had an advert from a list of professionals who were RC's. It was headed around something like '100 (R) Catholics for independence.' More thinking people were a bit put out by that from various sides. The same poll had apparently indicated that 70% of members of that tradition had voted for the Yes. That I was not surprised at and would no doubt have been mainly working class ones who use Celtic Club ground as their place of worship than something proper. The middle class was more No orientated. The fact that those 70% were from a tradition of Irish immigration in the 19th and early 20th century is not a surprise (especially here in Glasgow and west Scotland). Had Charles Stuart won we would have had a less progressive place and thankfully at the Glorious Revolution of 1688 (which mjsmsprt40 partially refers to) we got a Bill of Rights the end of the Stuart system that punished you or executed for having anti-government thought, It laid the ground for our modern democracy along with banning Stuart torture stuff. As for me, I voted on politics myself and happy with the two results - the removing of the Stuarts/Jacobites and the decision recently.