We have several countries represented here, each with its own approach to this matter, so there should be lots of views on it. Maybe you agree with the approach in your country or maybe you don't.
The question is;
When can a Death Sentence be appropriate punishment?
Moved.
This is a boring topic. There can only be two views: for and against. However, the nuances or reasons to support one or the other can make it interesting.
I think capital punishment is justifiable if it's propertionate to the crime, just, swift, and secure. To be proportionate, it must be applied only to murderers. For the punishment to be just, the murderer must have pre-meditated the act and show no signs of regret. To be secure, the convicted must be the actual murderer beyond any doubt. Also the legal system and courts of law must be free from delay, ill will and corruption.
Since all these aspects never come together, my answer is that death penalty is hardly ever justifiable. The courts and laws in my country are so corrupt that it's only right that the capital punishment is not applicable here.
Murders, pedifiles and stupid people. They should designate one whole state to those types of people and let them have at it. That way the system isn't necessarily eliminating them, just setting it up. ;)
The world would be a lot safer without a lot of people - not just murderers.
I feel that the Death Penalty is appropriate for the most heinous of crimes only when it is absolutely certain, either by confession, & corroboration -- or -- by irrefutable evidence by a unanimous vote of a jury of peers, & the sentence of death must be carried out swiftly if not immediately.
If that can't be the case, then I am against the death penalty.......
Otherwise, for those most heinous of crimes, as I have outlined in another thread, I'm all for bringing back the 1930's style of American penal institution that featured 'chain gangs', slop on the plate twice daily, & 'hard' labor -- emphasis on the word 'hard', without any possibility of parole, for life.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhewnztA.jpg&hash=c86a21ba82d029335d557ed1b3c30094" rel="cached" data-hash="c86a21ba82d029335d557ed1b3c30094" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/hewnztA.jpg) (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FkdVqKcb.png&hash=8bc69d5a3f5a7fd15303ef4083d3676e" rel="cached" data-hash="8bc69d5a3f5a7fd15303ef4083d3676e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/kdVqKcb.png)
Here 'Chain Gang' criminals dig out the mountain track with hand tools (sledge hammer, shovels, pick axe, etc), remove all the rubble, & then lay all the track from dawn to dusk, 6 days a week, every week of the year.....year after year under armed guard, until death separates them from their tools.
BTW.....no Cable Color TV or other similar niceties on their off day.
On that day they bury the dead, & wash....not necessarily in that order. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chuckle002.gif)
I think capital punishment is justifiable if it's propertionate to the crime, just, swift, and secure.
Military laws are one thing, civilian laws a different one. I suppose that the thread refers to death penalty regarding civilian societies. In such case, death penalty is
never justifiable for the following reasons.
The reason to be for penalties, in
advanced civilized societies, has three objectives, all of them fundamental:
a) To be a punishment for the individual so he doesn't commit the same behavior/practice again.
b) To be an example for the other individuals so they don't do it.
c) To be a way of rehabilitation so the once criminal can reintegrate into society again.
As obvious, death penalty contradicts the last objective - in fact, it is substituted by a primitive impulse, Revenge. It's not even clear if death penalty has any value regarding objective b). Ahh, it is reported to work very well regarding a)...
But there's more reasons against death penalty from a pure law point of view, its
irreversibility in case of error being just the first one. The second problem would be indemnity in case of error, how much does
your life values?
And there's torture. All forms of death penalty are, as obvious,
simultaneously a torture.
There's a third order of reason, which is more from philosophy of politics, has the State -
basically just a concept - the right to kill the ones it represents? I think not.
And there's moral. To kill, in times of peace and out of legitimate self defense, it's
morally wrong. Period.
Therefore, no one should endorse the "State" to kill in his name.
Let's try one of those smileys…
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhuWSrhp.png&hash=c4ecf66400a71dd71883016307af2d88" rel="cached" data-hash="c4ecf66400a71dd71883016307af2d88" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/huWSrhp.png)
Military laws are one thing, civilian laws a different one. I suppose that the thread refers to death penalty regarding civilian societies. In such case, death penalty is never justifiable for the following reasons.
I agree with all the reasons you provide to reject the death penalty. However, I disagree with the generalisation that it's never justifiable and that military law and civilian law are strictly apart. Wars may last for years or decades, so the "order" under them is not so temporary or irrelevant to the discussion.
My generalisation is that death penalty looks impracticable in every way, no matter how well intended. Still, there are cases when it has an effect to deter a bigger evil. Granted, those cases are specific and limited. In general the death penalty is impracticable.
I'm against the death penalty under any circumstances. The major problem with it is that people have been executed who were later found to have been innocent.
The following site provides 10 examples of justice gone wrong. It's clear to me that this is the tip of an historical iceberg.
http://listverse.com/2013/04/09/10-innocent-people-sentenced-to-death/ (http://listverse.com/2013/04/09/10-innocent-people-sentenced-to-death/)
Actually I did not mean just civilian penalties.
In the latter case there's a whole plethora of considerations for example one could argue that war itself is a form of outsourcing the death penalty to the commanders in the field This is because a commander can decide who his troops are going to attack and thus, probably kill. I don't know how far one can take that downwards in the chain of command, from the politician who declares war, through the general planning an attack that will maximise fatalities on the enemy's side to the soldier tasked with deciding who to aim at on a battlefield.
I was watching a debate on the justifiability of wars, and the concept of a "Just War" was brought up. Apparently a Just War is not about murder but about killing on behalf of a legitimate government. A curious notion, no doubt of interest to the usual culprits, the politicians. Then it's OK.
Apparently.
As has been mentioned, a major difficulty in agreeing the concept of a death penalty is the security of the verdict. There have been so many cases where mistakes have been made and, from my perspective, where th penalty was in accordance with the law but that the law was daft and merely itself an instrument of murder. One things of religious excesses and verdicts handed down to the mentally ill who were not responsible for anything they did.
- Since the prehistoric, State of War has ever been a separate "legal" occurrence. It hasn't borrowed from or intersected with laws of "times of peace".
- "Kill/not kill a criminal"? You consider death sentencing and remember "penitentiary" (ie confinement), but what about seeing the whole spectrum weighing in treating perps? E.g., depriving some of additional rights along with imprisoning? Then - maiming, or some other - more up-to-date - methods of "taming" the 'bad guys'?
Because you know what? 1) You sentence a VERY bad guy to death - then it MAY appear that that guy was not so bad or not bad at all -- or 2) fearing killing a "good guy" by mistake, you confine all :bandit:s whatever they've been proven by court to have done, then -- what is the statistics about isolated "devils" having got to make themselves or otherwise occur free and not confined? Be it a parole/pardon after a long period and with the political circumstances changed - or just drastically changed "political circumstances" -- such as an uprising or war?
Dead people cannot be punished.
Dead people cannot be punished.
;D Ask a Catholic. ;D
Honestly, I think the death penalty is the easy way out. If it was worth it to them to commit the crime then it was worth spending the rest of their lives rotting somewhere.
Honestly, I think the death penalty is the easy way out. If it was worth it to them to commit the crime then it was worth spending the rest of their lives rotting somewhere.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhuWSrhp.png&hash=c4ecf66400a71dd71883016307af2d88" rel="cached" data-hash="c4ecf66400a71dd71883016307af2d88" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/huWSrhp.png)
See here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=137.msg7061#msg7061)
Sounds kind of harsh. It doesn't apply to all crimes/criminals in my book. Just the one's that would be up for possible execution.
Murders, pedifiles and stupid people. They should designate one whole state to those types of people and let them have at it.
Wow, that state would be the most populous state of our planet ;)
They should designate one whole state to those types of people and let them have at it.
I think they already did :right:
I'm against the death penalty under any circumstances. The major problem with it is that people have been executed who were later found to have been innocent.
Exactly. We cannot rule out errors, human or not, therefore no punishment should be irreversible.
I'm against the death penalty under any circumstances. The major problem with it is that people have been executed who were later found to have been innocent.
Exactly. We cannot rule out errors, human or not, therefore no punishment should be irreversible.
Irreversible? You mean keep the death penalty, but along with each such judgement also execute the judges?
Often, the lack of punishment is irreversible. (Here, at least.)
Often, the lack of punishment is irreversible. (Here, at least.)
Do you mean double jeopardy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_jeopardy)?
No. I mean something like this:
Brazil: Criminal gangs set buses alight in Sao Luis
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25607753 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-25607753)
Irreversible? You mean keep the death penalty, but along with each such judgement also execute the judges?
That's a very nice idea...and the jury members, too.
Often, the lack of punishment is irreversible.
You live in Brazil which needs to punish its football fans.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.rt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F20%2F5d%2F20%2F00%2Fbrazil_protest.si.jpg&hash=a90df1628b315eb8fed7011493b7de1e" rel="cached" data-hash="a90df1628b315eb8fed7011493b7de1e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.rt.com/files/news/20/5d/20/00/brazil_protest.si.jpg)
They should designate one whole state to those types of people and let them have at it.
I think they already did :right:
Forgive me for I live a sheltered life, I'm not following you on that one. The only thing that comes to mind is Alcatraz but I'm talking about more than just an island/prison.
We have several countries represented here, each with its own approach to this matter, so there should be lots of views on it. Maybe you agree with the approach in your country or maybe you don't.
The question is;
When can a Death Sentence be appropriate punishment?
I think you may have begged the question when you referred to it as "punishment".
A death sentence isn't punishment. Life in prison without a chance of parole is punishment.
Putting a pedophile in prison...now, that's real punishment. Prison justice can be brutal.
football fans
You are right - although that picture isn't about those.
Putting a pedophile in prison...now, that's real punishment.
Here, that's vacations.
Putting a pedophile in prison...now, that's real punishment.
Here, that's vacations.
Vacations? Back when I lived in Brasil jail riots with hundred of deaths were an everyday thing... can't believe that today Brasilian jails excels Swedish reclusion "hotels"...
My bad. I should have said that that's vacations for gang leaders and their followers. Criminals without protection (pedophiles for instance) inside a jail are really in a bit of a trouble.
We have several countries represented here, each with its own approach to this matter, so there should be lots of views on it. Maybe you agree with the approach in your country or maybe you don't.
The question is;
When can a Death Sentence be appropriate punishment?
I think you may have begged the question when you referred to it as "punishment".
Hi tt - you mean in the sense that it might not be a punishment? For suicidal criminals with a fetish for exhibitionism I suppose! :)
We have several countries represented here, each with its own approach to this matter, so there should be lots of views on it. Maybe you agree with the approach in your country or maybe you don't.
The question is;
When can a Death Sentence be appropriate punishment?
I think you may have begged the question when you referred to it as "punishment".
Hi tt - you mean in the sense that it might not be a punishment? For suicidal criminals with a fetish for exhibitionism I suppose! :)
No.
I meant that the way the question was phrased already assumed that the purpose of a penalty was to punish.
Oh I see what you mean tt. Good point, there could be other reasons for the Death Penalty such as vengeance, political, probably others. in the ones I have mentioned I would not (from my viewpoint) expect there to be any defensible justification).a
there could be other reasons for the Death Penalty such as vengeance, political, probably others.
I think Belfrager eloquently explained (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=137.msg7090#msg7090) the reasons for applying penalties to misbehavior. But in the case of some kind of sociopathic psychopath, preventing recidivism would be impossible except through continued imprisonment. I think you can probably build some kind of argument on that, although I would reject it for the same reasons as Belfrager.
The only thing that comes to mind is Alcatraz but I'm talking about more than just an island/prison.
I'm afraid Macallan meant something bigger than a small island/prison :-X
The only thing that comes to mind is Alcatraz but I'm talking about more than just an island/prison.
I'm afraid Macallan meant something bigger than a small island/prison :-X
As I'm sure he did. I was just saying the only thing that came to mind at the time. I'm not highly educated on history nor a lot of current events. That's why I asked what he was referring to. I strongly dislike watching the news. Something about all the negativity that comes from it puts me off.
There WAS an ISLAND. One of our users seems to descend from those bad guys having been gathered there əɹəɥмəшos;)
As an alternative to the death penalty, all so convicted criminals (the worst of the worst) shall be deemed by law to have forfeit all rights to any appeal.
They should be shipped off to:
[glow=black,2,300]Devil's Island [/glow]-- Île du Diable, Île Royale, & Île Saint-Joseph = Îles du Salut
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FyRkVJC6.jpg&hash=537820b74d7f39f40ddba2fb1c054274" rel="cached" data-hash="537820b74d7f39f40ddba2fb1c054274" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/yRkVJC6.jpg)
These Islands should be bought, & then the most heinous convicted criminals should be sent there to rot, as their entry point into the bowels of hell for all eternity.
This Penal Colony Group are for those who, based on their crime(s), don't deserve to be returned into society for any reason whatsoever.
These islands should be reserved for severe punishment through hard physical labor, & the lowest of all human living conditions permissible under law.
No prisoner should ever be permitted to return from there --- ever.
Too much effort for nothing. Just get rid of them. I prefer my taxes to be applied in something useful.
Too much effort for nothing. Just get rid of them. I prefer my taxes to be applied in something useful.
I understand that because of all the appeals etc. involved in applying the death penalty, it's not actually any cheaper than keeping someone under lock and key for decades.
You'll save your taxes when you've got mistaken... [abbr=:rip:](https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlgOjjAp.png&hash=bbf50e76e3ed4c10b019926fcd85e6dd" rel="cached" data-hash="bbf50e76e3ed4c10b019926fcd85e6dd" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/lgOjjAp.png)[/abbr]
Too much effort for nothing. Just get rid of them. I prefer my taxes to be applied in something useful.
I understand that because of all the appeals etc. involved in applying the death penalty, it's not actually any cheaper than keeping someone under lock and key for decades.
Yeah, special facilities and whatnot, much more expensive than regular prison.
That said...
The growing randomness of execution protocols forced by the boycott has led to parallels being drawn with 1972, when the US supreme court imposed a moratorium on the death penalty across the country. The highest judicial panel in the nation ruled in Furman v Georgia that capital punishment was so inconsistent in its application in different parts of the US that it was unconstitutional.
The court lifted the moratorium in 1976 after death penalty states promised to adhere to new guidelines. One of the changes that emerged was the use of pharmaceuticals in lethal injections that were first used to kill Charles Brooks in Texas in 1982.
The current mayhem over lethal injections has led some prominent public figures to say that the US supreme court should consider imposing a new moratorium. Former president Jimmy Carter told the Guardian last year: “It’s time for the supreme court to look at the totality of the death penalty once again.”
Full article here (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/30/death-row-inmates-longer-deaths-scramble-drugs).
Too much effort for nothing. Just get rid of them. I prefer my taxes to be applied in something useful.
Like figuring out if they actually got the right people?
No.
It seems that many of you have an absolute trust on your justice system. I don't.
Regarding getting somewhere to send criminals, that's not a new idea. All colonial countries had some place like that.
One gets free of criminals, no expense (but for the boat trip) and bandits get a place where they can kill themselves freely without disturbing the good consciences.
The ostrich strategy, hiding the head below the ground. No see the problem, there's no problem...
It seems that many of you have an absolute trust on your justice system. I don't.
Funny isn't it, how some people who wouldn't trust their governments with their kitchen trash, are all for letting that same government kill (semi) random citizens.
No see the problem, there's no problem...
Very common among management types.
If they'd let me do it like I was trained, & trained others to do it in VietNam (a bullet in the head or center mass), I'd eradicate anyone they (the State/Government) would contract me for, at a very minimal cost (hell, some I'd even consider doing for free (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/CoolGlasses.gif)) ............ I never had any complaints from the subject(s) either. (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FBlLv9nr.png&hash=781a6c4f553cc76e363ebc6e339c0feb" rel="cached" data-hash="781a6c4f553cc76e363ebc6e339c0feb" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/BlLv9nr.png)
The ostrich strategy, hiding the head below the ground.
To defend ostriches. Just to remind people if they forgot.
The widespread expression is based falsely: the birds plunge their heads into grass to prey.
Like figuring out if they actually got the right people?
And SF said those island can be bought and sold. For profit prison colonies? What could possibly go wrong?
This Penal Colony Group are for those who, based on their crime(s), don't deserve to be returned into society for any reason whatsoever.
Life in prison is life in a
penile colony. :'(
We have several countries represented here, each with its own approach to this matter, so there should be lots of views on it. Maybe you agree with the approach in your country or maybe you don't.
The question is;
When can a Death Sentence be appropriate punishment?
I favor the death penalty in only one kind of case; any kind of sexual abuse of children.
In those types of instances, hang the bastard/line up the firing squad, and end his/her life, no exceptions.
Otherwise, I do not favor the death penalty.