Your eager and ever helpful Forum Administration has evolved a new set of custom Terms and Conditions which apply to this forum (see T&C link at the top of the page).
These T&C now apply to new members and in principle are effective immediately to existing members but subject to any alterations which may arise from comments made in this thread. Continued use of the DnD Sanctuary is taken as agreement with the T&C.
If you have comments or questions, please post them here. As interlocutor I will answer them where I can and where I cannot I will collate them for discussion within the Administration, but only at the end of this month to avoid frequent interruptions of the Administrators work during this busy period. I will report back on their resolution. Note that the Administrator has the final say on all these matters.
Please keep your comments strictly on the existing T&C. If needed, the T&C will be updated in late January / early February so I would like comments, please, within two weeks.
Would you accept some minor gtammatical edit suggestions?
At the first glance, it seems to be mostly punctuation (minor) and syntax (few).
Would you accept some minor gtammatical edit suggestions?
At the first glance, it seems to be mostly punctuation (minor) and syntax (few).
Yes - please try to put everything on one post.
ׂ
May I suggest a line-break between each rule and responsibility. It's a bit of a strain on the eyes to read it in it's current form. :)
"Its".
"Its".
In responsibilities 4 and 12.
The DnDSA does not own material posted within the DnD forum, the material remaining the property and/or sole responsibility of the forum member who posted it. If, without the written consent of the originator, posts are quoted externally, the responsibility for that act will lie solely with those that Instigated and/or carried it out. Notwithstanding this restriction the DnDSA is hereby granted the right to reissue any or all posts should the DnD or its derivative have to move.
You remain solely responsible for the content of your posted messages. Furthermore, you agree to indemnify and hold harmless the DnDSA, its staff, other members of this forum and its subsidiaries and any related websites to this forum. The DnDSA of this forum reserve the right to reveal your identity (or any other related information collected on this service) in the event of a formal complaint or legal action arising from any situation caused by your use of this forum.
the poster’s IP address is recorded to enable contacting your ISP should banning be required.
No ISP will administer bans of their customers for this board specifically.
The banning referred to is banning by DnD, not the ISP.
May I suggest a line-break between each rule and responsibility. It's a bit of a strain on the eyes to read it in it's current form. :)
Thank you, I'll ask Frans if this can be done to aid this review process.
Is the distance sufficient now?
Is the distance sufficient now?
That was quick, it's better but maybe could do with another line-break more for emphasis than anything else. :)
That was quick
That's the benefit of separating semantics and presentation. :) I simply defined some padding between list items. However, it uses the same lists as the rest of the forum, so adding more would negatively affect the rest of the site. I suppose I could consider dedicated rules styling, but I'd prefer not to.
"Its".
The use of the word "its" is correct and does not need changing; it is the possessive of "it" and is not short for "it is".
Please state to which line you refer when making a comment.
If you have further grammatical inputs please, as I mentioned earlier, try to put everything into one post not spread out in different posts.
The use of the word "its" is correct and does not need changing...
I was, have been and am fully aware of that.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9no1k4p.png&hash=4bccd7c5e405e4719ff2b20301d90f4c" rel="cached" data-hash="4bccd7c5e405e4719ff2b20301d90f4c" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/9no1k4p.png)
If you have further grammatical inputs...
"Further" is the wrong word...
Later... (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=103.0)
In the first place, who did these rules?
I mean, who is the Forum Administration?
Something that always has irritated me in Opera Forums was the lack of transparency.
I suggest a thread, locked, meant to inform posters in a concise way about who are the people behind decisions.
That will make an huge difference from MyOpera, where everything was obscure and non- transparent to posters.
And, please. First, the content, then the form. Grammatical hallucinated will have their time to post. :)
In the first place, who did these rules?
I mean, who is the Forum Administration?
Something that always has irritated me in Opera Forums was the lack of transparency.
I suggest a thread, locked, meant to inform posters in a concise way about who are the people behind decisions.
That will make an huge difference from MyOpera, where everything was obscure and non- transparent to posters.
And, please. First, the content, then the form. Grammatical hallucinated will have their time to post. :)
First of all, let me make a plea that we stick, in this thread, to the matter in hand and limit it to comments (real comments that is) about the T&C, if there are any, so that we can move on from there in setting up the DnD Sanctuary. If other things like Transparency need to be discussed in due time then I suggest threads are started on that subject to pave the way.
However, not wishing to duck the question I will give an answer from my viewpoint but obviously reserving the right of Frans to give his own much more definitive remarks, him being the Boss.
So who wrote the T&C? Well I produced the first version which was subsequently updated following discussions with Frans and with the rest of the "team" who you can identify well enough by looking at the members list - they are either Administrators, Moderators or Staff. Basically they are people that have offered or been asked to help. So the result from that is that if there is anything bad about the T&C you can blame me and for anything good you can praise the other guys.
My part started when I offered to help was accepted by Frans (see Thread on Moderation).
As far as transparency is concerned, please remember the Sanctuary is still in an experimental phase and its “all hands to the pump” to get the thing up and running and on a secure footing. Frans is extremely busy and will presumably in time get round to some of the niceties but for now let’s give the guy a break from doing purely Admin stuff when there’s a lot of technical work around. It was with that in mind that I offered to help. The T&C, while a somewhat boring subject, is useful to set up quickly in that it will cover especially new members. Those already here are mostly familiar with our evolved D&D etiquette and know this as a sort of bench-mark.
I have deliberately not put detail on the Forum Administration (DnDSA)in the T&C; that will evolve in due time, but it’s not fully set up and, methinks, not the most urgent thing at present.
Finally on Transparency, please remember that this thread is here so that Members have the transparency and opportunity to have their say about the T&C. I certainly take responsibility for putting those time limits for comments but I maintain that is practical, necessary. and needed now.
Regarding the T&C themselves, I have tried to cover the concerns raised up to now in DnD. In that I have been helped/hindered by the large number of examples available through looking at other forums and have used some things and discarded others. Unusually for these things the ownership of posts is that of the posters, excepting an ability of Frans to move the whole thing to another site if that is what is needed due to any change in the Dvd situation, without having to ask each one of us for permission to copy our posts.
Inevitably there are some “do or don’t” remarks on posting. That is necessary to warn and stop unpleasant posters who might infect us. The level at which these things are enforced by Moderators will evolve; they are kept deliberately subjective so that the DnD can evolve its own character, being neither too fussy nor too heavy-handed. I’m a poster as well as a stupid volunteer so I am interested in posting in an environment similar to the pleasant one we have enjoyed in D&D for some years, with the same silliness, perspicacity and blood and thunder.
Can we please now put this type of discussion aside, or in another thread, and concentrate on the T&C.
edit: this will be my last post here for a couple of days because I am now starting my travel back to Wessex
Frans is in the group.
The group is closed.
I put it there so that I myself primarily could edit that "in place". What?
Josh, the idea is that feedback is posted here for all to see. You can come up with feedback however you want.
As noted by string above, he produced the bulk of the text, taking into account a few remarks I made in advance. After a bit of back and forth between us, we presented the text to the other moderators for comments. A few more things were altered, and we both feel the text is now essentially finished. However, if someone thinks we overlooked anything, if something's unclear, or if there are any other concerns, that's something we'd like to hear. For further details please reread the OP, because this is string's show.
I'd like to thank string for taking care of this for me. It's much appreciated.
If you have comments or questions, please post them here.
What exactly did you want to mean by saying
express your own opinion or experiment with opinions not your own...
? It is for editing purposes...
Next...
P.4
the responsibility for that act will lie solely with those that Instigated and/or carried it out.
Cosmetics: lose the capital...
P.12
The DnDSA of this forum reserve the right
The underlined is grammatically redundant (DnDSA is no else than "of this forum", will you?) And... The core word of the abbreviation is "administration" - I believe it's singular, so the verb must be sigmated: "reserves". Forgot: have we had "the" with "DnDSA" so far? Let's be uniform, will we?
The above is on the first part ("Responsibilities").
I have an overall note also: should we have a "Terminology" part? "Such and such means such and such" - this sort...
Thank you for your answer string, I´m elucidated.
Ok, going to read it.
A proposed addition to the posting rules regarding text-speak.
Text-speak (Txtspk) while not against the rules (we know that many people only access this site via mobiles) it is not encouraged. Many people tend to ignore posts containing text-speak and we wouldn't like you to think that other members are ignoring you. They're not, they just prefer to read lucid posts in English
@ Josh - thank you for your comments; here is my response which will be forwarded as input to the DnDSA
Misc Josh
Comment
Should we have a "Terminology" part?
Initial Response for DnDSA visa
Will be referred to DnDSA but I don't support the idea. While I agree that many terms are open to subjective judgement, that contributes to the flexibility afforded the Moderation task and being stuck with defined, but in themselves subjective, definitions. If there are specific crucial examples, they can be suggested.
R1 Josh
Comment
What is meant by "express your own opinion or experiment with opinions not your own"
Initial Response for DnDSA visa
The meaning seems clear to me - it refers to Members acting as Devil's Advocate or perking up a discussion with some exaggerated viewpoint. However will be referred to DnDSA for review
R4 Josh
Comment
Remove capitalisation of Instigated
Initial Response for DnDSA visa
Agreed
R12 Josh
Comment
Change "The DnDSA of this forum reserve" to "The DNSA reserves"
Initial Response for DnDSA visa
Agreed
@ Luxor - thank you for your comments; here is my response which will be forwarded as input to the DnDSA
PR Luxor
Comment
Add guideline for Text Speak as follows: Text-speak (Txtspk) while not against the rules (we know that many people only access this site via mobiles) it is not encouraged. Many people tend to ignore posts containing text-speak and we wouldn't like you to think that other members are ignoring you. They're not, they just prefer to read lucid posts in English
Initial Response for DnDSA visa
Agreed - to be added as new Para under Posting Rules
R1 Josh
Comment
What is meant by "express your own opinion or experiment with opinions not your own"
Initial Response for DnDSA visa
The meaning seems clear to me - it refers to Members acting as Devil's Advocate or perking up a discussion with some exaggerated viewpoint...
Hey! I asked for a plain explanation, not for exercise in poetry.
Poetry is also acceptable in DnD.
Poetry is also acceptable in DnD.
Complaining about poetry on the other hand... :right:
I hate Terms and Conditions of any sort but these particular ones are special to me.
Congratulations, we are near the best T&C running on the internet. :)
Made by us to be accepted by us, that's the idea. :)
This is a reminder to those who might wish to make comments to do so before the 22nd Jan because on that day I shall start wrapping this up for conclusion with the Administration and getting the final version sorted; not that everything will be frozen for ever but we should move on.
I was checking through the comments received and see that I owe jn7 an apology because I responded too briefly to his remark. So - sorry jn7 :-[.
The Phrase "should banning be required" in R8 could be interpreted as, colloquially, "should a poster do something really naughty", banning being the ultimate sanction for naughtiness in DnD. It does follow on from the previous paragraph but jn7 was right to question it - I shall think of some better phrasing.
before the 22nd Jan
what?
Give me GMT, I'd say UTC even.
In T&C/Responsibilities
The DnDSA does not own material posted within the DnD forum, the material remaining the property and/or sole responsibility of the forum member who posted it. [...]
Very well. I presume that the platform itself belongs to someone (the Administration?) and, therefore, can be sold to someone at any moment. Is my interpretation correct?
What exactly do you mean by platform?
By "platform" I mean the several technical aspects (both hardware and software) that allows the content (our content, according T&C) to be posted.
For example, imagine that the Administration receives a proposal to sell the platform to a third party. Do users have a voice about it or not?
Another example, publicity. Can the Administration sell advertising space in the forum?
Please understand that I'm not trying to create difficulties and I very much appreciate all your effort but I'm increasingly worried with that kind of things that can suddenly alter the whole spirit of a digital community. MyOpera's attitude was enough for something I don't like.
By "platform" I mean the several technical aspects (both hardware and software) that allows the content (our content, according T&C) to be posted.
For example, imagine that the Administration receives a proposal to sell the platform to a third party. Do users have a voice about it or not?
Another example, publicity. Can the Administration sell advertising space in the forum?
Please understand that I'm not trying to create difficulties and I very much appreciate all your effort but I'm increasingly worried with that kind of things that can suddenly alter the whole spirit of a digital community. MyOpera's attitude was enough for something I don't like.
Good Questions, Belfrager, very good questions, and ones which we have considered in drafting the T&C. You will probably have noted the last sentence in R4 where it states
“Notwithstanding this restriction the DnDSA is hereby granted the right to reissue any or all posts should the DnD or its derivative have to move”. An immediate aim of that sentence was to allow some flexibility in the citing of DnD (as a minor example Frans has just moved the DnD to another domain – i.e.thedndsanctuary.eu). That was foreseeable, but who knows what else will need to be done in order to keep this Community up and running.
As far as advertising is concerned, this is part of a wider matter of how to finance this forum, a thread on this has just been opened. On the general matter of the character/environment /spirit (*) of DnD, I think that all of us share the same wish to make this a place we all like to inhabit so by all means express your reservations in that thread :)
(*) I was going to write spritus sanctorum but for some reason Google translates that as Ghost! Not quite the pun I intended.
If you have comments or questions, please post them here.
What exactly did you want to mean by saying express your own opinion or experiment with opinions not your own...
? It is for editing purposes...
Next...
P.4the responsibility for that act will lie solely with those that Instigated and/or carried it out.
Cosmetics: lose the capital...
P.12The DnDSA of this forum reserve the right
The underlined is grammatically redundant (DnDSA is no else than "of this forum", will you?) And... The core word of the abbreviation is "administration" - I believe it's singular, so the verb must be sigmated: "reserves". Forgot: have we had "the" with "DnDSA" so far? Let's be uniform, will we?
The above is on the first part ("Responsibilities").
I have an overall note also: should we have a "Terminology" part? "Such and such means such and such" - this sort...
Neither string's answer was helpful, nor anything has changed at all in the "Resp." part so far yet...
For easy reference, here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=102.msg5157#msg5157) is string's reply. I think it would be useful if you could clarify what you thought was unhelpful?
As for nothing being changed yet, remember, "If needed, the T&C will be updated in late January / early February."
In the first place, I was up to correcting some grammar. Syntax included.
All few instances may be considered minor, still...
My first doubt was about a syntax thing. "Not your own" or something was/is noun-postpositive, which lexical group I had never encountered before in such a position. So - regarding that I could be just unaware of such a use - I just wanted to clear the cracking semantics - what the author was thinking when writing this, ie.
I guess syntax shifting is admittable in poetry, is it?;)
So are you saying you'd like the text to be changed to something like this?
"express your own opinion or experiment with opinions [that are] not your own""
Not exactly. As a sorta specialist(haha), I understand that the form expresses the thought. So I needed to see what was the thought behind the form.
One, I mean a person who cares, shouldn't consider the form only when the task is to pass the idea unharmed. So I wanted to know what the idea was, first, before judging any form...
Consider it as an attempt of direct translating - from the author's thought language - not at all from the form/"language" he used to translate his thoughts' one to... Whatever.
@Josh - of the 4 points you made I did not agree that the first two were valid but nevertheless wrote that I would pass them on for adjudication by the Administration
I agreed the second two points and wrote that I would recommend that they be implemented.
The T&C has not been changed yet because that will only be done when changes are sanctioned by the Administration.
On the purely grammatical issue of the phrase "not your own", it is a typical literary convention often used ion both spoken and written English. Frans is correct in his interpretation of it.
The T&C has not been changed yet because that will only be done when changes are sanctioned by the Administration.
Bush?
On the purely grammatical issue of the phrase "not your own", it is a typical literary convention often used ion both spoken and written English.
The question is not in any phrase on its own.
When I say syntax, I mean syntax.
2. Respect the law of the country from which you post...
I object!
"The law" in today's Russia is not written by people nor for people. :P
There's not much we can do about that Josh!
The time limits for new comments has now expired and the T&C are expected to be updated early next week.
This thread will remain viewable for a while to enable those who have commented to check the new version against their comments.
Thanks to all who participated in the review.
I updated the T&C to what is for now their final version. Thank you for your feedback.
The Otter "Ping" has raised a case where our T&C can't be applied with regard to the Rule which states:
"4. The DnDSA does not own material posted within the DnD forum, the material remaining the property and/or sole responsibility of the forum member who posted it. If, without the written consent of the originator, posts are quoted externally, the responsibility for that act will lie solely with those that instigated and/or carried it out. Notwithstanding this restriction the DnDSA is hereby granted the right to reissue any or all posts should the DnD or its derivative have to move."
In discussions in the Otter "Ping", it may happen that one of our Members posts a useful idea which is taken up by Otter and incorporated in the Browser. The usefulness may or may not be recognised when it is posted but the current T&C state that it can't be used or re-quoted (this would most importantly apply to any code suggestions) without the consent of the poster. To apply such a restriction would be inhibiting on the cooperation which we hope to achieve; and time-consuming if we were to implement it.
In some future Ping application of the rule might well be appropriate but not, I feel, in the case of Otter, an Open Source project, where, literally, free exchange of ideas and information is necessary.
I am therefore proposing that we add new text to rule 4 of T&C as follows:
"In the case of Pings whose nature require the free exchange of information, and this is approved by DnDSA, posting shall be treated as free information for uninhibited use by the Ping partner or, if appropriate, as fully open source material. Such Pings which come into these categories shall be clearly identified as such when they are initiated."
With respect to the last sentence a provisional statement will be added to a sticky in the Otter Ping shortly. Apologies are due in that it is after-the-event; if any past Otter Ping contributor has objections please inform me or Frans. If there are no objections concurrence is assumed.
The T&C will be changed in 1 week unless there is a contrary consensus.
This is to inform everyone that the above change to the T&C has now been added.