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Messages - Al-Khwarizmi

1
Otter Browser Forum / Re: qtwebengine version with single process option?
Oh, this is a pity... that is also one of the various reasons why I hate Chrome. I didn't know we would have to suffer it in Otter as well.

Chrome is the scour of browsers.

Edit: it's funny that this post appears as posted by Chrome, lol (it actually wasn't...)
2
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Zoom Page and Fix-to-width in Otter no Opera-like features

In Preferences > Content it's limited as low as 250%. I agree that this should be higher because something like 180% to 200% is simply the desired default display size on my UHD monitor. (On the flipside because you see more detail there's less desire to zoom in — I don't think I ever really do anymore.)

I use everything from 150% to 200% already on my 1600x1200. If I get an UHD monitor at any point, I'll need 400% for some websites for sure.

Most programs and websites are configured by default for font sizes that are way too small. https://medium.com/@martinpielot/what-is-the-optimal-font-size-for-the-body-of-websites-1093ca7bf9f0#.j4x44rs8o

https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2011/10/16-pixels-body-copy-anything-less-costly-mistake/
3
Otter Browser Forum / Re: What I need.
I'm already using Otter for like 20-30% of my browsing. The progress in the last months has been amazing!

It will become my primary browser as soon as it gets password manager, "click tab to minimize" and address bar completion. In fact, I think with only the first two (which I know are coming quite soon) I'll already make it primary, although the address bar completion would help for recommending it to other people as it's something people expect.
4
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Beta 6 release (01-06-2015)
Why is there even such a policy? The point of open source is to share code and not reinvent the wheel (as long as licenses are respected and authorship is attributed, of course)!

Congratulations for the new version, I'll try it when the win64 binaries are online but speed dial + source viewer (also of course MDI but I already have it in the weekly) sound great!
5
Otter Browser Forum / Re: "ability to add custom toolbars", is there a howto somewhere?

And I guess all toolbars, including custom ones, will have to be integrated into the View > Toolbars menu (to allow enabling/disabling) and be customizable through a GUI, just like in Opera. I doubt this is high on Michał's priority list though.

Now there is a GUI. Try right-clicking the toolbar and going to the "Customize" menu. It still has some rough edges in the case of the menu bar, but for the rest it's working like a charm for me.
6
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Feature Requests
You can already place the tab bar at the bottom, just drag it and drop it there!

It can also be placed on the left or right, but at the moment with the drawback that tabs rotate 90º and are vertical, which is far from ideal. Horizontal tabs at the side are coming in the future.
7
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Otter advantages over Vivaldi

OK - so I put tabs on the right.  They are oriented vertically so that one can't read the tab.  Is that right?  I prefer horizontal tabs, one on top of the other, at the right edge of the browser window.  Can Otter do this?

No, not at the moment. It's planned in the issue tracker, but not done yet: https://github.com/OtterBrowser/otter-browser/issues/110

I agree it's a rather important feature.
8
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Otter advantages over Vivaldi
Quote from: ayespy

I'll just make a last reply here, and then leave you folks to your tea and biscuits.  It's pretty clear a significant share of commenters are living in a sort of alternate reality, receiving positive reinforcement from each other, and contemptuous of the outside world.  I fear I could not make myself at home, nor be accepted ultimately, any more than a mainstream pediatrician at an anti-vaxxer rally.

A rally of one, I guess? As far as I can see, there is one user that has replied to your posts in an aggressive way. I think that comments like "what kind of idiot found to compare that shit with Otter" are out of place in a forum. But I don't think that represents the attitude of the majority of the forum, in fact the rest of the users have replied to you in a totally civil way (and some of them agreeing with your view, e.g. ersi, "I completely concur") so I think generalizing and talking about a rally is unfair. Although I can perfectly understand that you posted in a bad mood after you have been called idiot, I think you should rethink your view of the rest of the posters.

Quote from: ayespy
I did not claim or imply one should not care what his happening to his  machine.  I  merely made the point that, on the whole, users care about USE, rather than technical niceties.  The stated aim of both Otter and Vivaldi has been to restore the user experience classic Opera aficionados lost when Presto was abandoned.

I agree. I'm a pretty technical user and open a huge lot of tabs, so I do care about things like single-process or RAM usage, but most users don't. And even in my case, those issues take a back seat to UI and functionality. I would be quite happy with a browser with all the functionality of Opera Presto even if it's hurdled by the Chrome engine, than a very lightweight browser with less functionality.

Quote from: ayespy
The thrust of my comment, as has been acknowledged in the past by Emdek, was that VISIBLE features matter.  Users care first about what they can see and touch in the experience, and second about matters like resource footprint and security.  Emdek has shown a reluctance to reveal any feature before it is "fully ready," and I think this reluctance, plus a shortage of available developer-hours has led to a project which, to a bystander, looks frustratingly slow in progress toward its stated goal.

Vivaldi, by contrast, has both more guys, and a different emphasis.  It's trying to show as much as it can, as fast as it can, without actually blowing up anyone's machine, and in less than a week attracted half a million users, and is likely pushing a million now.  Its forums and blogs are a hotbed of activity, with hundreds of new comments every day.  What does this demonstrate?  That users care about USE.  It does not prove that one browser is good and the other bad, that one is superior to the other, or that one project is more noble than the other.  It demonstrates that users care about USE.

I totally agree about visible features being the most important. But for the record, currently for my particular priorities, Otter is ahead of Vivaldi in visible features and functionality. It has more mouse gestures (including down over a link), it has the standard menu bar AND title bar (Vivaldi allows me to show a menu bar, but it's collapsed with the titlebar), it has per-site settings including proxy settings... that's stuff that I use, and especially the menu bar thing is very important for me personally. I understand that other people have different priorities and for them Vivaldi may be ahead in functionality, but that's very far from a universal truth.

Re the Vivaldi forums having much more activity than this one and the browser having more downloads, well, it's a browser made and endorsed by no less than the former Opera creator, with much more resources for marketing and getting the product known, and it had a thriving community even before the browser was released or even announced. So I don't think it's fair to say that the relative sizes of the communities or number of downloads are an indicator that users prefer Vivaldi to Otter.

Quote from: ayespy
But I will point out that there is no topic at the Vivaldi forums called "Vivaldi advantages over Otter," and nothing but admiration on that site for the aims and the efforts of the Otter project.  It would seem no one over there feels the need to convince themselves that their interest in the project they are flocking to needs to be defended.

Vivaldi is the larger project, with downloads in the hundreds of thousands, the support of Von Tetzchner, a company and a large development team, so it's not strange that people don't feel the need to motivate themselves. Otter was seen as in danger when Vivaldi was announced, probably some users thought that Emdek could abandon the project if he didn't have enough motivation, so it was important to make it clear to him that we need Otter! We need to stick together because we are the underdog.

Quote from: ayespy
To the degree one engages in an effort here to validate this project as BETTER than another, and seeks reinforcing feedback from other members within an undeniably small club, one will only succeed in adding blinders to one's blinders, and missing chances to attract a big enough user base to preserve project momentum toward ultimate success.  My advice was not to get too damn busy patting yourselves on the back.  Yes, you need to believe in what you are doing, in order to continue doing it.  No, defects in what someone more successful is doing, is not proof of your own virtue.  What will prove the virtue of the project will be its ultimate success.  The universe has signposts pointing toward success, if you will heed them.

I totally agree with that. However, note that the thread is not a back-patting fest, it contains self-criticism as well, as can be seen in the first page of the thread.
10
Otter Browser Forum / Re: "Should I stay or should I go?"

I am able to use Otter with the address bar it has by now, even though it's admittedly incomplete. I am more sorely missing cookie management and some big features like Notes. I would very much like to be able to compose into Notes with any text editor of my choice. I wanted this for Opera already a decade ago.

I don't care that much about the address bar myself, either, but I was mentioning it as the biggest feature that is missing for the big public (I think), not for me. My non-geek family members aren't going to miss things like Notes (they don't know what it was) but they could miss the address bar.

For me personally, the pet features missing are MDI, "click tab to minimize", and then indeed, notes.
11
Otter Browser Forum / Re: "Should I stay or should I go?"
I think the current status of Otter vs. Vivaldi is not the most relevant issue. Even if Otter were behind, the sole fact that it's open source whereas Vivaldi could vanish in a whim due to not making enough money should be more than enough argument for Otter.

But anyway, yes, I also tried Vivaldi yesterday, and it's definitely behind Otter. It has the advantage of the autocompleting address bar, and somewhat better eye candy, and some loved features like Notes. But the foundations seem much less solid. It feels rather slow, has much less customization, doesn't have mouse gestures, quick preferences, etc... and doesn't have the ability to get a proper standard title bar separated from the proper standard menu bar, which annoys me quite a lot.

As I said yesterday on IRC, as soon as Otter gets an autocompleting address bar, it will be in a state where I can not only use it myself (I already use it, together with O12 and Chropera in more or less equal standing at the moment) but also recommend it to the non-geek family. It does crash sometimes, but not more than Chrome or Chropera in my experience.
13
Otter Browser Forum / Re: "Should I stay or should I go?"
Stay! Vivaldi is closed source, so it's likely to go the way of O12 at some point. An open-source project is much more valuable. And anyway, if Vivaldi gets good in the future, having two good browsers would be a good thing. Otter would be my primary browser and Vivaldi the secondary :)
14
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Feature Requests
Yes, from what I know you do need to press Alt, which is dumb... but you press Alt once, enable the option to show menu bar, and you have the menu bar there forever. In Chrome there is just no option to have it. For me, that's a difference like light and day. Program that doesn't have a standard menu bar -> program that gets uninstalled from my PC.
16
Otter Browser Forum / Re: The sad fate of the more esoteric features
I loved the "suite" features of Opera. I didn't use email because I have always been a webmail user, but I did use the IRC and torrent features.

I've always had mIRC and uTorrent installed, but sometimes I just needed a quick chat, or I clicked in a torrent link to download something one-off for a public tracker, and the Opera features were much more convenient than launching the full-blown client, even though I used these for more serious use (e.g. private trackers, seeding torrents for a long time, etc.)

The RSS support was also great, another feature lost with Chropera.
17
Otter Browser Forum / Re: Otter browser and competition

I also consider Maxthon (now at v0.9.2.1 for the Linux beta) a candidate for an Opera replacement because its Windows version has pretty much all of the major features I knew and loved from Opera Presto: highly configurable Speed Dial page, mouse "rocker" gestures for Forward and Back actions, popup blocking, ad blocking, general form autofill (not just passwords), configurable default page zoom (other than 100%) etc.

The other day I installed Maxthon. I saw no standard menu bar. And no way to enable it. I uninstalled Maxthon.

It seems that they did have a standard menu bar until version 3, but removed it. Programs don't want me to use them these latest years.