Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #250 – 2014-03-18, 19:08:24 With regard to Crimea, [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ5ICXMC4xY[/video]
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #251 – 2014-03-18, 21:17:06 Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-18, 15:12:27Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.What your math is worth for, keep in mind that voter turnout was around 75%-80%. So basically the referendum was rejected by at least 20% of Crimeans.The 95.5% are the result of those who took part at the referendum.While ethnicity might have been an important factor at the ballot box, it for sure wasn't the only one. Material damage considerations might have been an important factor too. The IMF will impose draconic austerity measures. (e.g. cutting of social spendings - pensions halved, increase of gas prices up to 100%, increased prices for electricity up to 40%, depreciation of the local currency, and so on). Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-18, 15:12:27How is Russia possibly not the aggressor? Their troops spread from the base and took over Crimea, Russian troops amassed on the Ukrainian border and the fucking launched an ICBM (albeit unarmed ) at the Ukraine, and sank a Ukrainian ship.Russia launching an ICMB at the Ukraine?Where did you got that nonsense from? Another spam mail? According to Caitlin Hayden, spokeswoman of the National Security Council, it was a routine test launch of an ICBM and Russia provided advance notification of this launch to the United States as required under the New START Treaty.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #252 – 2014-03-18, 23:27:55 Regardless what Americans and Germans says, mother Russia keeps on conquering...Simple as that.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #253 – 2014-03-19, 00:20:07 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-18, 21:17:06Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-18, 15:12:27Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.What your math is worth for, keep in mind that voter turnout was around 75%-80%. So basically the referendum was rejected by at least 20% of Crimeans.The 95.5% are the result of those who took part at the referendum.I dimly remember that the Tatars wanted to boycott the referendum anyway. Doesn't mean they all did of course.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #254 – 2014-03-19, 01:04:00 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-03-18, 18:52:55May I remind you Sanguinemoon you fit neatly into the silly side of the Western propaganda? Kosovo was a province of the Republic of Serbia and held a referendum in which the majority were Albanian ethnics and guess what there was a small minority of Serbs who objected just like you say about the Tatars. Somehow that was of course fine but the Crimea principle is different? Wake up. Putin has already publicly stated on television that the minorities will be recognised and there will be 3 offical languages - namely Russia, Tatar and Ukrainian. The murderous coup lot in Kiev canclled Russian at the start as an offical language even though they knew the ethnic leaning in the east and Crimea (where over 90% speak Russian). So it was okay for Kosovo which was led by the KLA funded by drug running but somehow not in Crimea. When you cannotjustify the similarity you result to the rather immatre thing the vote was fixed. Not according to foreign watchers who were present.The West thinks it has some inherent God-given right to do what it wants and stuff anyone who challenges them. That they cannot control a country in this case Russia gets right up their arrogant noses. The rebellion take over in Ukraine was led by militant and vicious thugs from the neo-Nazi quarter (some had SS symbols on the back of their helmets) and they took over a legitimate government and therefore illegal. They ignored their own constitution because it souited them and now the bleat that Crimea is acting un-constitutionally. May I remind you and the other lapdogs that Crimea has a legitimate government unlike Kiev. So9 you and others condemn the Crimeans but applaud the dangerous illegal lot in Kiev? Kiev totally ignored any consultation with the east or south of the country as they were hell-bent on their own agenda and stuff anyone else.It is not Russia that is causing the problem it is the dangerous cabal in Kiev allied with the hypocritical West creating all sorts of propaganda nonsense. All the tripe about invasdions is just that - tripe and the propaganda here in our media is unbelievable! There is no independent news reporting it is all partisan. Try Kiev if there is any further disintegration and when you consider that Putin has said he would rather see Ukraine sorting itself you of course choose to ignore that and absorb the braining of the propagandist machine here in the West.As for trying to contain a powerful nation,like Russia through sanctions will also be bad for us let us not forget. The West has been too fond of thinking it has the moral high ground for some reason beyond comprehension.Even beginning to compare this situation to Kosovo is buying Putin's propaganda. The situation is not the same. There was ethnic cleansing and genocide in Kosovo, but not in Crimea.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #255 – 2014-03-19, 01:10:27 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-18, 21:17:06Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-18, 15:12:27Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.What your math is worth for, keep in mind that voter turnout was around 75%-80%. So basically the referendum was rejected by at least 20% of Crimeans.The 95.5% are the result of those who took part at the referendum.While ethnicity might have been an important factor at the ballot box, it for sure wasn't the only one. Material damage considerations might have been an important factor too. The IMF will impose draconic austerity measures. (e.g. cutting of social spendings - pensions halved, increase of gas prices up to 100%, increased prices for electricity up to 40%, depreciation of the local currency, and so on). Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-18, 15:12:27How is Russia possibly not the aggressor? Their troops spread from the base and took over Crimea, Russian troops amassed on the Ukrainian border and the fucking launched an ICBM (albeit unarmed ) at the Ukraine, and sank a Ukrainian ship.Russia launching an ICMB at the Ukraine?Where did you got that nonsense from? Another spam mail? According to Caitlin Hayden, spokeswoman of the National Security Council, it was a routine test launch of an ICBM and Russia provided advance notification of this launch to the United States as required under the New START Treaty.Yes, Krake. An ICBM "test fired" over the Ukraine. Routine my ass. The "routine" launch was just in time to threatened the Ukraine. Sure. Drink some more Kool-Aid. Last Edit: 2014-03-19, 01:33:17 by Sanguinemoon
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #256 – 2014-03-19, 01:31:04 Breaking news: PUTIN wants to annex Josh for repeated bastardization of the English language, amid fears he (Josh) may be corrected by native English speakers. More at 10.........
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #257 – 2014-03-19, 03:02:12 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-18, 13:34:21Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-18, 05:30:07I consider troops all over the place during a referendum as invasion. It's everywhere in the media, unless you are wilfully blind http://yle.fi/uutiset/venaja_kokoaa_krimille_raskaita_aseita__ukrainan_sotilaat_pyytavat_kaskyja/7139315Russiam military all over the place during the referendum? Like in the picuture you are linking to? Is the building we see in the background a polling station? Are the two ladies we see in the picture coming from the polling?That's Perevalnoye days before the polling. Look up where Perevalnoye is in Crimea. Look for pics of the exact polling moment yourself. There's a pretty big principled difference we have. For you, referendum at gunpoint easily counts as referendum, to me it doesn't. Quote from: krake on 2014-03-18, 13:34:21Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-18, 05:30:07You missed - again - where the international border runs. It may very well be that Saakashvili started the assault on Aug 8, 2008, but he was within his own borders, whereas Russians were not and are not. Plus Russians reportedly attacked outside South Ossetia into Georgia proper too, just like they are all over Crimea now, not only at the military base. Saakashvili didn't start Russia's military presence in South Ossetia and Ukrainians didn't start Russia's military presence in Sevastopol.International borders? That idiot was within his borders?Let's assume Saakashvili wasn't within his own borders. In whose borders were Russians then?I think I know where you are coming from. The only way your position can make sense is that you have a bunch of national guilt towards Russians from WWII. You think Russians suffered a lot back then and now you can show your gracious support for compensation. Here's an exercise for you, if you really want to show compassion: Think of all the peoples squeezed between Russia and Germany during WWII. When you can pull that off, this is the beginning of understanding. To me it's not a West against East situation, but a gloomy threat to everyone between West and East - again.Edit: As the news says, last night Ukrainian minister of defence gave permission to Ukrainian soldiers to use arms in self-defence. This is too late. It's already over. What Russia is doing is taking an opportunity to move into a power vacuum and take over the power. This makes perfect realpolitikal sense, but is of course not justified by any law other than might makes right. Last Edit: 2014-03-19, 04:20:56 by ersi
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #258 – 2014-03-19, 05:27:16 If "the referendum" was run by RussiansPutans, there was no referendum. And what about the preparation period? Was there any?Who held "the referendum"? How had it been prepared? Was there any international observation-participation there?..Take those questions, weigh in possible answers and get that "the referendum" could be no more than masquerade.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #259 – 2014-03-19, 06:35:35 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-03-13, 05:40:54......America, time after time, has interfered with, disrupted countries then destroyed them when it suited. Often using the claptrap of looking after their interests.......I offer no apology, or offer any pity whatsoever for then American President Truman's decision to fry a couple hundred thousand of jap men, women, & children in Hiroshima & Nagasaki to force the beginning of a world peace, as opposed to a continuing of the world war.BTW ...... to all resident American 'bleeding heart' apologists .... it worked, & it did save American lives. Last Edit: 2014-03-19, 07:00:52 by SmileyFaze
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #260 – 2014-03-19, 06:40:08 There were Soviets - who held an inland victory, etc.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #261 – 2014-03-19, 07:17:12 Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-03-19, 01:10:27Yes, Krake. An ICBM "test fired" over the Ukraine. Routine my ass.You keep repeating that nonsense. Do you? Even so it won't become more credible.Once again no, it wasn't fired over the Ukraine. You might check your email again if that's the only source of your informations.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #262 – 2014-03-19, 07:19:03 Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-03-19, 01:31:04Breaking news: PUTIN wants to annex Josh for repeated bastardization of the English language, amid fears he (Josh) may be corrected by native English speakers. Even better:PUTIN will send Josh for bilateral talks to Washington.Josh will explain to Obama that Pootin isn't the president of Russia. Obama will think that a cactus revolution, missed by the NSA, took place in Russia.Obama will show his gratitude and Josh will return to his basement with a few bags stuffed with $$$.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #263 – 2014-03-19, 07:51:50 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 03:02:12Edit: As the news says, last night Ukrainian minister of defence gave permission to Ukrainian soldiers to use arms in self-defence. This is too late.Too late you say?Imagine the carnage if that order would have been given in due time in an attempt to stop the Crimeans.I assume you would have enjoined the bloodbath blaming Russia for it and taking side with the putschist and their Right Sector.Only person able and willing to prevent such a bloodbath was Putin and fortunately he did it without firing a single shot.Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 03:02:12I think I know where you are coming from. The only way your position can make sense is that you have a bunch of national guilt towards Russians from WWII. You think Russians suffered a lot back then and now you can show your gracious support for compensation.You are utterly wrong. I feel no guilt for things I or my generation is not responsible for. In contrast to some others I'm living in the present and the only thing I care for is the future.Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 03:02:12To me it's not a West against East situation, but a gloomy threat to everyone between West and East - again.A gloomy threat to everyone between West and East?You mean 'New Europe' where resentments and pathologic fears are easier to get stirred up? A great opportunity for geostrategic games. Even fascists are welcomed as they were in times of ideologic war ("Gladio", you probably heard of it).Europe has many common interests with the USA.To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #264 – 2014-03-19, 08:06:31 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 07:19:03Josh will explain to Obama that Pootin isn't the president of Russia.Not A president.There are differences even in the negative.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #265 – 2014-03-19, 08:50:36 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 07:51:50Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 03:02:12Edit: As the news says, last night Ukrainian minister of defence gave permission to Ukrainian soldiers to use arms in self-defence. This is too late.Too late you say?Imagine the carnage if that order would have been given in due time in an attempt to stop the Crimeans.Nobody was ever stopping Crimeans. And nobody was stopping Russian soldiers from spreading all over Crimea. That's the way for Ukraine to lose their territory.Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 07:51:50Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 03:02:12I think I know where you are coming from. The only way your position can make sense is that you have a bunch of national guilt towards Russians from WWII. You think Russians suffered a lot back then and now you can show your gracious support for compensation.You are utterly wrong. I feel no guilt for things I or my generation is not responsible for. In contrast to some others I'm living in the present and the only thing I care for is the future.In this case your position makes absolutely no sense. I am still looking for evidence how you would make sense.Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 07:51:50Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 03:02:12To me it's not a West against East situation, but a gloomy threat to everyone between West and East - again.A gloomy threat to everyone between West and East?You mean 'New Europe' where resentments and pathologic fears are easier to get stirred up? A great opportunity for geostrategic games. Even fascists are welcomed as they were in times of ideologic war ("Gladio", you probably heard of it).Hmm, so all the historical wars and occupations that swept over these territories were the fault of the people who suffered from it? And the current occupation and annexation of Crimea is the fault of Ukraine? I have lost all hope that you begin to make sense.Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 07:51:50Europe has many common interests with the USA.To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!So you prefer to be the chessman of Russia's geostrategic interests. Whereas I refuse to be a chess piece at all.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #266 – 2014-03-19, 09:14:15 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 07:51:50Europe has many common interests with the USA.To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!I don't think either we (the EU) or Russia much care what the US thinks about this.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #267 – 2014-03-19, 12:44:25 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-19, 09:14:15I don't think either we (the EU) or Russia much care what the US thinks about this.Which US would that be? My little corner of the US could care less about Crimea, Ukraine, Moldova.===================================================QuoteCrimea belongs now to Russia. What will stupid Americans do? Follow publiclyFollow privatelyOther Answers (17)Oldest StephenG answered 8 hrs agoNo it doesn't21 Chemical Goldblum answered 8 hrs agowe dont actually care11 Richard England answered 8 hrs agoI'll be 1 step behind you..So you can count me among the stupid Americans.=========================================How about the rest of you? Frenzie? Krake? Josh? Macallan?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #268 – 2014-03-19, 19:17:35 I don't really know much about Crimea—besides this:Quote from: TennysonHalf a league, half a league, Half a league onward,All in the valley of Death, Rode the six hundred.'Forward, the Light Brigade!Charge for the guns' he said:Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.'Forward, the Light Brigade!'Was there a man dismay'd?Not tho' the soldiers knew Some one had blunder'd:Theirs not to make reply,Theirs not to reason why,Theirs but to do and die:Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.Cannon to right of them,Cannon to left of them,Cannon in front of them Volley'd and thunder'd;Storm'd at with shot and shell,Boldly they rode and well,Into the jaws of Death,Into the mouth of Hell Rode the six hundred.Flash'd all their sabres bare,Flash'd as they turned in airSabring the gunners there,Charging an army while All the world wonder'd:Plunged in the battery-smokeRight thro' the line they broke;Cossack and RussianReel'd from the sabre-strokeShatter'd and sunder'd.Then they rode back, but notNot the six hundred.Cannon to right of them,Cannon to left of them,Cannon behind them Volley'd and thunder'd;Storm'd at with shot and shell,While horse and hero fell,They that had fought so wellCame thro' the jaws of Death,Back from the mouth of Hell,All that was left of them, Left of six hundred.When can their glory fade?O the wild charge they made! All the world wonder'd.Honour the charge they made!Honour the Light Brigade, Noble six hundred!
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #269 – 2014-03-19, 19:51:29 Wait--- it gets better. For Crimea to become part of Russia, it first has to declare independence from Ukraine. According to at least one blog posting, once Crimea becomes independent Turkey can claim its right to the place by treaty the Ottoman Empire made with Catherine the Great. This could get to be some -- "fun"....Further developments as they come.http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #271 – 2014-03-19, 21:38:40 Why does the Crimean situation remind me so much of a rabbit (Crimea) at a convention of carnivores (Russia, Ukraine, Turkey and probably a few others)?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #272 – 2014-03-19, 22:06:51 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 08:50:36In this case your position makes absolutely no sense"In this case your position makes absolutely no sense to me"I've corrected it for you Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 08:50:36Hmm, so all the historical wars and occupations that swept over these territories were the fault of the people who suffered from it?Historical wars and occupations?The people of those territories (whatever territories/nations you have in mind) don't hold an exclusive monopol over suffering.Two world wars of the last century, add historical wars of earlier centuries, the bombings of this century and you'll get the picture.Blame Russia or Putin for all nations' /people's sufferings if it makes you feel better.Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-19, 08:50:36So you prefer to be the chessman of Russia's geostrategic interests. Whereas I refuse to be a chess piece at all.Russia's geostrategic interests?Are you kidding or just blinded by hatred?Who were the main meddling actors in the Ukraine? Russia? Putin?Wherefrom got the rebels backing?Didn't the legally elected president offerered the 'opposition' to make part of his government till next elections (2015)?Didn't he also agreed to prepone the elctions for the end of this year? There was no chance for him to become reelected. Not by Ukrainians and not by Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity. Why then the rush?Why the putsch? Orchestrated by whom? By Russia? By Putin?Cui bono?There is a single profiteer. The actual situation is a win win situation for someone.It isn't the Ukrainian people, it isn't Russia (nor Putin), nor can it be any European country (Fuck the EU).BTW, you don't have to agree because unlike your false reasoning about me I see where you are coming from.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #273 – 2014-03-19, 22:17:23 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-19, 22:06:51There is a single profiteer. The actual situation is a win win situation for someone.It isn't the Ukrainian people, it isn't Russia (nor Putin), nor can it be any European country (Fuck the EU).Right to the point.And who has created such situation? Mrs Merkel.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #274 – 2014-03-19, 22:25:36 Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-03-19, 22:17:23And who has created such situation? Mrs Merkel.She was a serviceable accessory, out of question.