The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Topic: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga (Read 346886 times)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1825 – 2016-11-26, 23:57:34

I'm not with the left's program, Sang… (Nor the "Never Trump" Republicans'.) Trump won the nomination, and then the election. Now he's preparing to assume office. It's called the transition…
The position of Legal Counsel is long established. It doesn't have the implications you seem to think it does.
But I suppose you can continue to dream!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1826 – 2016-11-27, 01:42:26

An election is a valid process and we have to live with the outcome whatever one may have as a sided opinion. In hard practice Americans will have to wait until the new leader THEY have elected gets in and people see what the actual practice will be. After four years you have the opportunity of chasing him but if he gets in again then tough we are not taking you back.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1827 – 2016-11-27, 02:15:48

I'm glad to hear that the bust of Churchill will be prominently displayed in the White House…

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1828 – 2016-11-27, 04:39:19

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-26, 23:57:34

I'm not with the left's program, Sang... (Nor the "Never Trump" Republicans'.)

Do you deny there's the potential for conflicts of interests as well violation of the Emoluments Clause clause to the constitution? Just for a quick example, the state-owned Bank of China is a tenant of Trump Tower in Manhattan. You're forgetting, Painter is not "the Left." He's former the former Bush Whitehouse ethics lawyer.

If Hillary teaches us anything, it's that this doesn't even necessarily have to be legally correct (the ethics lawyers will figure this out.) Legally, Hillary wasn't breaking the law using private email servers. She was cleared twice by the FBI. But the mere suggestion by Republicans that she was swung enough votes from her to cost the election. Unless Trump turns his assets over the a Blindtrust, Democrats could hold Trump to one term on the suggestion of scandal - taking a page from the GOP playbook. What comes around goes around. I wonder how many business dealings with the Russian government he has; I'll bet that will go over well nice in middle America regardless of if the dealings are technically legal or not.

You also forgot that I noted Trump getting impeached might not the best thing to happen. Impeachment attempts need to be reserved for if Trump truly goes haywire, not merely for not liking that he won. You confuse stating the possibility of impeachment if he fails to put his assets in a Blindtrust with actually agitating for it.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1829 – 2016-11-27, 05:06:15

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-11-26, 20:39:19

Do you deny there's the potential for conflicts of interests

Anyone who hasn't lived under a rock before public service has "the potential for conflicts of interest"… You're playing with words in a highly partisan way! Not unusual for a Democrat. But not convincingly un-hypocritical, BTW.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-11-26, 20:39:19

[…]as well violation of the Emoluments Clause clause to the constitution?

Yes. Since Trump has not assumed office yet, your premature "misgivings" are just another example of sore loser syndrome.
When you're in your safe-space, do you mewl and cry to yourself, "Surely there's something we can get him on?"

If Trump has ethical problems, the Ethics Court will deal with them. If he has legal problems, our local or Article III courts will deal with them. If Trump has problems with convincing the formerly-known-as Sanguinemoon of his bone fides and good intentions, that guy probably won't vote for Trump for a second term… Sobeit.

(The Ethics Court is -of course- the court of public opinion… You're as much a juror as everyone else; and, in the grand tradition of the Democrat party, you've already made up your mind: Evidence and testimony are for wimps who don't have the courage of their convictions!)

The Clause clause? You mean the few words you'd pick out to apply for the purposes of innuendo?

—————————————————————————
Adler (over at the Volokh Conspiracy) concludes:

Quote

Whether or not one concludes that Trump’s business dealings violate the letter or the spirit of the Emoluments Clause, the underlying controversy is almost certainly non-justiciable. It is difficult to conceive of a scenario in which someone would have standing to challenge Trump’s arrangements, and even harder to think what sort of remedy could be ordered by a court. In other words, if there are concerns about how President Trump handles his various investments, the only remedies will be political.
Whether or not one concludes that Trump’s business dealings violate the letter or the spirit of the Emoluments Clause, the underlying controversy is almost certainly non-justiciable. It is difficult to conceive of a scenario in which someone would have standing to challenge Trump’s arrangements, and even harder to think what sort of remedy could be ordered by a court. In other words, if there are concerns about how President Trump handles his various investments, the only remedies will be political.
(source)

Or -as I've said- you want to use whatever you think you can get away with, Sang, to get a "re-do" on the election…

Good luck with that! (No: I really mean that! Should you manage to install Mrs. Clinton as president, the Democrat party is doomed. Even most Democrats won't accept that…)
______________________________________________
A commenter to Adler's post said:

Quote

I argued before the election that Trump would be a better choice than Hillary simply because he can be impeached if he steps out of line, while Hillary thinks she is above the law and has been repeatedly proven right. So I'm almost rooting for him to be impeached, as much to restore Congress to its rightful place as the most powerful branch as for any other reason. I am chomping at the bit waiting for the Pence adminstration to start.

But don't you think we should actually wait for Trump to do something wrong first? For everyone that slammed Trump saying the system is rigged, and for saying that he wasn't sure he would respect the results, don't you think maybe we should respect the results now. Then let the system work when it needs to?

I'll be right there in the cheering section if he gets impeached, but maybe where I'm a little out of step here is I think we should wait for him to do something wrong first.

I wouldn't argue with that…
Trump needs to honor his oath. Congress needs to step up and do their job.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1830 – 2016-11-27, 14:39:10

Unfortunately the bust of my hero Sir Winston Churchill should be a reminder of democracy. Ah well, it keeps hope open for, one day!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1831 – 2016-11-27, 17:20:52

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-27, 05:06:15

Whether or not one concludes that Trump's business dealings violate the letter or the spirit of the Emoluments Clause, the underlying controversy is almost certainly non-justiciable.

So even he can't rule out the possibility that Trump could well violate the Emoluments clause. The remedy wouldn't go to the courts, but to Congress for impeachment. You try to put me in a small liberal box, so let me clarify that the Republican Congress seems unlikely to impeach him unless the rest of his presidency his horrifying. But the situation is still ammo against him in 2020 unless he puts his assets into a blind trust or liquidates, even if he finds some legal loophole.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-27, 05:06:15

I argued before the election that Trump would be a better choice than Hillary simply because he can be impeached if he steps out of line, while Hillary thinks she is above the law and has been repeatedly proven right

Now this is just jackassary. Jackassly partisan enough to throw everything else he says into doubt. Maybe Hillary is a crook. Think Trump isn't? I mean seriously. Besides, with a Republican congress, it would be easier to impeach her than him if she thinks she's above the law or not. If I hallucinate that I'm above the law and rob the Seven-7, I'd still go to jail with my delusion as company. Do yourself a favor and get off the right-wing blog and get other opinions. If you're gonna post articles like this, I might as well post from Daily Kos or Move On to get the same level of bias and idiocy.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1832 – 2016-11-27, 17:40:24

...of course, Sang, a law professor's opinion on the law is idiocy -- if you don't agree with it! That's your criterion, and has been for as long as I've known you.

Now your goal is to stop Trump -- in 2020? Sigh. Four more years of your predictions. Oh, and polls!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1833 – 2016-11-28, 12:49:10

I think what you have to realise midnight is that youth might be full of energy but common sense must also be the rule.

Why is democracy okay if people vote for liberal suggested mindsets but if you do not agree with such you are a pariah? Not very principled or frankly properly democratic thinking!. What if Hilary Clinton had won and all her supporters scoffed at Donald trump. That would have been a right? Whether someone is right, left or centre they have a right to that opinion and have to accept that in a free election principles of rights are the criteria. As it happens right now it is the liberal thinking of Democrats (well partially0 that is moaning and going bananas and the legions of the youthful there get carried away with their emotions and not with common sense. You had a election and dished out lots of stuff that did not make you much different from the other lot and now going ape because you lost?? Don't boast about democracy and how great a leader in it you are as there are other nations that follow that better and wider. Too much political immaturity has been shown by especially younger people.

You practiced the system during the course of the election but now going rather daft I am afraid because you lost!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1834 – 2016-11-28, 15:44:28

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-27, 17:40:24

if you don't agree with it!

No, if he shows he's blatantly biased

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-11-28, 12:49:10

You had a election and dished out lots of stuff that did not make you much different from the other lot and now going ape because you lost??

No, because a lunatic won. Now he's ranting that "millions voted illegally" with zero evidence. And don't forget he said that if he lost it was voter fraud (although the ones caught doing that were trying to vote for him multiple times like idiots...) Oh and it's not even the Democrats that started the recounts, it was the Green Party that never had a chance of winning.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1835 – 2016-11-28, 16:16:46

The greatest problem with democracy is that any fool's opinion can be as valid as the solution very much needed. And the change we need never comes the way we want it. Shown how foolish the matters you deliberate over are, y'all still persist.

If you have faith in the system you should be excited to learn if that faith is justified.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1836 – 2016-11-28, 19:48:10

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-11-28, 07:44:28

No, if he shows he's blatantly biased

You didn't even notice that I quoted from Prof. Adler and a commenter to his thread…

Your definition of "blatantly biased" is what I called it.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-11-28, 07:44:28

No, because a lunatic won.

I'm pretty sure you meant to say "because my preferred lunatic didn't win"…

And, like I said, we're likely going to hear you whining for the next four years, at least.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1837 – 2016-11-29, 03:16:01

If Trump has problems with ethics (which, in Washington, DC, seems all-but impossible — unless the other party reigns…) then Congress is empowered to deal with them.
As an example that Sang would never have thought of: Prior to the campaign, Trump had made overtures in Cuba; casinos and hotels being of particular interest to him. He's since castigated Obama's executive action re-opening "relations" with the Communist country… Indeed, he pledged to rescind the Obama administration's actions.
This would, of course, mean forgoing many substantial lucrative deals!
If Trump calls for the usual concessions from Cuba before normalizing relations with that country (…and rescinds Obama's executive order), I'll suspend most of my concerns about his robber baron personae… Will you, Sang?

If he doesn't, well — we could have got Hillary!

——————————————————————————————————————
Here's an interesting scenario, Sang: Petraeus is being considered for Secretary of State!
(I still maintain that Petraeus was prosecuted, because he disagreed with POTUS…)

Who -in Congress- can object, considering Mrs. Clinton's, er, lapses?

(Well, maybe Harry Reid: Who boasted that his lie about Romney's taxes made him lose the election! Because, of course, that's what Democrat politics is about: Winning! No matter how…) Well, consider: There aren't enough Dems… Not nowadays! (Of course, in California and New York there are! Are you calling for the elimination of the electoral college yet, Sang? Because only urban voters' votes count…

)) [parse, Sang, parse…]
——————————————————————————————————————
You can chime in any time, Sang… Knowing that your usual shtick is what it is, you'll likely not. (You're waiting for "the usual suspects" to come up with a narrative…

How else would you know what to say?)
That's what losing looks like!

How's your "safe space" working out for you…

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1838 – 2016-11-29, 20:43:35

Well now midnight I have to sigh as both sides - Clinton and Trump had some daftness about them. For someone with the experience of Clinton coming out with that utter guff about Russia involved in the election for example! Not one bit of evidence whatsoever apart from limited minds fooled by the corporate media. On your description on Trump if we follow that line up what is that saying about millions and millions of your fellow citizens then? People in various countries have got a wee bit fed up with the regular politicians and we can see that very plainly in who they are supporting in the populist corner. It is also why so many Americans went for the Sanders corner amongst others.

Yes Trump came out with that weird thing on the voting corruption whilst Clinton has supported that Green woman. Such is politics. On some passing points Trump has mellowed on pre-election guffaws so let us see what happens in practice eh? You had an election and the result is there so let us see?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1839 – 2016-11-30, 07:16:43

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-11-29, 20:43:35

You had an election and the result is there so let us see?

That's why there's evidence being gathered for impeachment if he proves to be a lunatic. Even the quote from Adler that Oakdale posted doesn't contradict the possibility that his business dealing with foreign governments could results in impeachment if necessary. At least the constitution provides a means to remove would-be dictators and corrupt presidents.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1840 – 2016-11-30, 08:02:24

You still refuse to see, Sang, that impeachment is a political remedy… Those who have little political power -like the Democrats nowadays- can't apply such a remedy, to achieve political power — which is, after all, what they and you want.
You misread the electorate. Even with the entire mainstream media and most of the polls in your camp, you still managed to lose the election.
Better luck next time!

(Choose a better candidate… But you have a very shallow bench.)

Why is it, I ask you, that you always focus upon unfounded prediction and rumors and innuendo? Because that's how you roll! Your fantasies are what drive you…
Reality is but an obstacle!

And let's be serious: You don't in the least object to corrupt politicians and megalomaniacs…so long as they seem to agree with your peculiar views.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1841 – 2016-11-30, 10:31:33

any impeachment act will be failed .
unless president trump piss off some republican .
then perhaps he will be impeachable .

on the other hand , political climate in the US is bad , very bad .
opposition party is the minority .

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1842 – 2016-11-30, 10:58:47

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-11-30, 08:02:24

You misread the electorate. Even with the entire mainstream media and most of the polls in your camp, you still managed to lose the election.

You're also failing to note many of Trump's victories were within the polling margin of error. Of course impeachment is political. Duh.

Having said that, a egregiously violates the constitution, Congress will be stuck with little choice. Time will tell if Trump actually violates the Emoluments Clause, still having until Jan 20 to make a decision. Maybe McGahn will tell tell him to put his assets in blind trust and he'll listen for once in his life. But there has to be point in a given president is objectively not obeying the constitution and is committing "high crimes and misdemeanors."

I followed the a link in Adler's article to one by Zephyr Teachout [/quote] She noted two historic examples of presidents being forced to give up emoluments and concludes:

Quote

The sheer volume of Trump’s enterprises, and his role as a promoter in them, makes this a near-impossible task, as does the difficulty of defining which of the transactions falls within the prohibition, and which do not. But the Constitution is clear that Congress has an obligation to stand as a check on inappropriate foreign influence. Congressional leaders should be among the loudest voices demanding he liquidate his assets and create a true blind trust, because of the burden that the alternative poses.

The emoluments clause is not an arcane rule. It is a fundamental principle of our country.

Despite the common opinion impeachment is all political, Trump could leave even a GOP dominated Congress no choice in the matter. This is gradually gaining traction already, with even conservative legal minds noting Trump could have a big problem with this.

If he fails to do the right thing, we'll find ourself staring past usual childish cries for impeachment if the president makes a policy we don't like, and straight at at him as he tears the constitution to shreds.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1843 – 2016-11-30, 19:06:55

Chimpanzee?! all this is doing is showing what I said about elections and the end result has to be got on with. Both Trump and Clinton came out with some daft stuff and that matter of foreign interference being dished out by Clinton and which i a lie is head-shaking. Some of Trumps were equally mouthing but why did so many Americans fall in behind him even if outside the youthful antics or liberal school minds? He was touching on something that more and more people were getting fed up with in the control of the country and so many feeling out of things.

This Presidential Election was one of the worst you have had for an awful long time and both sides had things that were not very mature or sensible. What an actual poor choice people had over there because many sensible people were not Clinton fans and fell back on that old escape of the 'lesser of two evils.' On the other side growing numbers of especially the less comfortably off were in their way fed up with what passes as a system and Trump's highly separate political corner touched them. It does not solve the situation but it does show you have a very displaced fundamental system I am afraid.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1844 – 2016-11-30, 22:44:24

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-11-30, 19:06:55

Chimpanzee?!

Who's the chimpanzee? Trump? Clinton? The English?
I agree.

Well, let's remain politically correct, no chimpanzees.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1845 – 2016-12-01, 01:28:34

They run Portugal.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1846 – 2016-12-01, 05:26:23

I especially like the "fake news" meme… You know, where Hillary was 90%, 80%, 70% assured victory — according to the polls!

I'm sorry to say that I have to agree with RJ here: Russia did not interfere with our election(s)… Absence of evidence usually does imply evidence of absence.