I came across a piece in the New York Times on migration into Europe this morning.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/world/europe/austria-migrant-crisis-truck.html? (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/01/world/europe/austria-migrant-crisis-truck.html?)
And this.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/28/world/europe/countries-under-strain-from-european-migration-crisis.html (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/08/28/world/europe/countries-under-strain-from-european-migration-crisis.html)
And this, too.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34113471?ocid=global_bbccom_email_01092015_top+news+stories (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34113471?ocid=global_bbccom_email_01092015_top+news+stories)
Do our European and UK posters see migration as a crisis?
The US has migrant "problems," too, but we've a large area to absorb migrants, more-so than Europe. I don't see it as a big problem, but many here do.
Do our European and UK posters see migration as a crisis?
On the face of it, people dying and starving does sound like a crisis. However, I think the entire crisis-idea is self-caused. Disallow people from working or immigrating legally, for instance, and you've got a crisis on your hands. But perhaps a crisis is exactly what the relevant people want, to dissuade others from following.
I work with refugees at an international Catholic NGO. Refugees aren't migrants and they pose very specific problems.
I work with refugees at an international Catholic NGO. Refugees aren't migrants and they pose very specific problems.
Please....go on. :wait:
It is a crisis and includes from round the world and much of a damn distance. Europe simply cannot keep taking them and that includes Great Britain. Our import has run ito the 10 figure mark and still getting flooded on this island. Most people are not happy with the flow in because everything is effected. Housing, schools, Welfare State costs (benefits, etc), administration.
I am well aware of the pundits who wax about the difference between immigrant types like those fleeing battle and those who are after a cumfy life style supplied with putting nothing in but there has to be limits. The more that flock because it is easy the more it costs each country's government. When you watch the crowd sitting outside the main railway station in Budapest demanding their rights someone should tell those from the distance world that they should try in the first free country them come to. They just see Europe as a gravy train to solve their problems but the level is getting ridiculous and increased bills mean increased taxes plus all that I mention in providing living for them.
As for us on top of all the added problems created on this island the population is mushrooming and as I said ages ago as a young lad it was 48 million now just over 61 million and within a short time to be over 75 million with no sign of stopping. They also breed like flies compared to the indigenous. How the deuce we can cope with this is beyond me and will be a nightmare and dynamite.
It's not any crisis for the European countries, though the receiving islands and coasts can be overwhelmed (which would include the whole of Malta, parts of Greece and Italy), and the EU hasn't exactly been forthcoming. It is clearly a crisis for the refugees, particularly the ones travelling by way of Libya, which has proven particularly deadly. According to Wikipedia the number of immigrants moving into the US was 900,000 at the highest a decade ago, around 300,000 now. The number of refugees is already higher than the latter number, but will not reach the former.
In 1990 Beijing had a population of 10-11 million, now 25 years later the population is 21-23 million. This means that the annual population growth has been 400,000-500,000. That is a similar number to the total refugee flow to Europe for a single city, every year for a quarter century. And Beijing isn't even the largest, or the fastest growing, city in China.
The number of people isn't a crisis, that so many of them are dying is. The Mediterranean is a deadly moat to cross. The Bay of Bengal is second deadliest, and the Sahara around third.
The UK is the third largest country in Europe, 1½ million less than France, but the seventh largest recipient, between Netherlands and Belgium. By capita they are on the 15th position (2014 numbers).
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.static-economist.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Foriginal-size%2Fimages%2F2015%2F09%2Fblogs%2Fgraphic-detail%2F20150905_woc966_0.png&hash=ce7364e436f19e734c47c9dc87ee8958" rel="cached" data-hash="ce7364e436f19e734c47c9dc87ee8958" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.static-economist.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/original-size/images/2015/09/blogs/graphic-detail/20150905_woc966_0.png) (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart)
A study has shown that Germany needs more immigrants to compensate for the gap left by retiring baby boomers. Non-EU countries could become an important source of qualified labor as the EU population shrinks.
http://www.dw.com/en/germany-needs-more-immigrants-study-says/a-18344745 (http://www.dw.com/en/germany-needs-more-immigrants-study-says/a-18344745)
Please....go on. :wait:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=1467.3;msg=45547)
Sorry, these are serious, very serious, matters that have no place at DnD by my part. I just wanted to underline that there are huge different problematics between economical migrants and war refugees. You can't treat both the same way.
You always have the Great Defender of Orange Tree "Christianity" explaining everything about those "that also reproduces as flies" or, in his prime minister words, those that "are a plague". Protestants at their best.
May I say firstly that Belfrager is retreating into the same mind as so much of the media going off it's head on the European crisis. It is know there is a difference between migrants and refugees however for the media they have went into rather wild and controlling view rather than stating the news. In addition I would also say to im that the guff about our stance is such. I would inform him and anyone else that there are 8 million people living in Great Britain who were not born here.
So we have over the years been doing our bit and suitably overlooked. Whatever crisis happens elsewhere in the world does not means that Europe automatically has to be the absorber and on principle people should according to principle seek the first place they come to but no that is casually put aside. We will no doubt take several thousand but the so-called livberal mind time after time just ignores too that we are not a very big island and cannot keep mushrooming our population. As for breeding big that IS factual and when a society falls below - what is it 2.1 or 2.4 children it is in decline. Our incomers have 45, 6 and even more. With 2 million taken in under the Labour government and this continuing the pressure on everything gets intense. Housing, utilities, schools, health service all get effected. When I listen to dumb ass politicians saying we should be taking in a 5-figure sum on top of what we are presently suffering in the six figure mark annually the same smart alecs would not wan them living in their posh areas.
The principle of refugees as such is one thing to deal with but just to assume that Europe can keep taking in untold numbers and this will not only effect cost but infrastructure is beyond understanding. Belfrager is correct then in distinguishing the two different types but what is presently happening is over the top. As for the dig at Prots kind of desperation there and we also took in large numbers of French Protestants after the French king pressurised by Belfrager's Church rang the bells for the extermination. The EC worse off places like Portugal have been kept alive by EC money so we help to subsidise places like Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Italy and just look at their spiritual and disruptive history. Pity they did not have a William (Bel got mixed up on his Dutch Royal knowledge elsewhere!). :cheers:
May I say firstly that Belfrager is retreating into the same mind
The only "retreating" Belfrager does is into the basic principles and moral duty of Christian solidarity and misericordy for those that suffers. Nothing else matters and end of discussion.
Every word you add, rjhowie, only puts you more away from such principles.
Acta non verba.
I have a good deal of respect for you, Belfrager.
We Westerners are nice and moral people.
The "Friends of Syria" (USA, EU and the Gulf-monarchies) have imposed four years ago an embargo on Syria and have frozen all its asset abroad.
No imports from Syria and no exports. Syria should be deprived of any means of income and the population starved out. No small country can survive under such conditions.
At the same time a civil war was successfully staged, mostly with the help of foreign fighters.
Main goal was and still is - regime change. The hegemon doesn't like Assad and he must go at any cost.
Who will take responsability for this crime? Who cares about the suffering, poeople living there had to endure since. Who will take care of the millions of Syrian refugees. Who cares about the people still living there?
Since we Westerners are nice and moral people, the hegemon is now urging the EU to absorb refugees. And since we are so nice and moral, Merkel will follow Washington's call.
1000.000 or maybe even 2000.000 will be given entrance to Germany.
They will symbolize Western generosity and morality or hypocrisy - take your pic.
Edit: Corrected the number (I missed a zero) of refugees planned to be given entrance to Germany.
We Westerners are nice and moral people.
No better, no worse than others. Let me add that Merkel is no Obama puppet.
Let me add that Merkel is no Obama puppet.
It depends on how you would define "puppet".
However, you seem to know better about our government than I do.
No better, no worse than others.
Hm, I'd go with better than most, worse than some.
to stop Mid-east Migrants is not that complicated .
just declare your goverment is Syaria and Khilafa .
declare Death to all infidels .
since most emigrants from mid-east are Kafir / infidels .
therefore they aint migrate to your Country .
May I say firstly that Belfrager is retreating into the same mind
The only "retreating" Belfrager does is into the basic principles and moral duty of Christian solidarity and misericordy for those that suffers. Nothing else matters and end of discussion.
Every word you add, rjhowie, only puts you more away from such principles. Acta non verba.
I've got nothing to add to that, but it needed repeating.
May I say firstly that Belfrager is retreating into the same mind
The only "retreating" Belfrager does is into the basic principles and moral duty of Christian solidarity and misericordy for those that suffers. Nothing else matters and end of discussion.
Every word you add, rjhowie, only puts you more away from such principles. Acta non verba.
I've got nothing to add to that, but it needed repeating.
===============
Every word you add, rjhowie, only puts you more away from such principles. Acta non verba.
That should do it.
BTW, the USA anounced that it will permit entrance to 10.000 Syrian refugees till the end of 2016.
David Cameron has anounced, approval for 20.000 Syrian refugees.
No mentions about Iraqi refugees. Probably because Iraq is considered now a safe country since it got liberated by the coalition of the willing.
Britain is taking in Syrians from the organised camps as this country is not part of the borders thing like the rest of Europe. The PM was right to say that such a direction is better than just giving encouragement to waves of people to think they can flock into European countries in their massive numbers and we pick up the cost. The media has went over the top. And anyway where the 20,000 are going to stay here will be very, very interesting. We have in practical terms taken in hundreds of thousands annually from across the world and there is a housing problem never mind the massive cost of welfare, etc. Many of hose immigrants we already have are in often overcrowded homewsgiven free and most live off the Welfare State causing extra pressure on schools, health services and much more. We simply cannot keep being flooded in.
There has been a great deal of Western hypocrisy over ME issues including Syria and we do not have innocent hands any more than we had in cusaing a mess in Libya and other places. On top of that it should be ME countries that militarily taken on ISIS on the ground. How many immigrants have the Gulf States or Saudi Arabia the rich places. For all intents more or less nothing.
I wasn't sure before now. I had my suspicions of course, but couldn't be sure.
Now I'm sure.
There is at least one Redneck in Glasgow, Scotland.
Now, now. For once Howie has a point.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/the-arab-worlds-wealthiest-nations-are-doing-next-to-nothing-for-syrias-refugees/
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/COCZJqlWsAAWT7h.png)
....
Moreover, these countries aren't totally innocent bystanders. To varying degrees, elements within Saudi Arabia, Qatar, the U.A.E. and Kuwait have invested in the Syrian conflict, playing a conspicuous role in funding and arming a constellation of rebel and Islamist factions fighting the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.
BUT for Howie's complaints about refugees in Britain, countries like Iraq are far less able to handle the influx and I have no idea how Turkey is handling 1.8M of them.
I have no idea how Turkey is handling 1.8M of them.
More importantly, what will Turkey do in the longer run. I've read that the Turkish gov't expected Syria's problems to be short term problems. That's obviously not the case. I wonder how many Syrians in Turkey plan to travel to European countries.
Just about every war was expected to be short--- with the notable exception of the "war on terror" which is expected to be without end.
In America's Civil War, when it started both sides expected there would be a few skirmishes and then it would be over.
In WW1, both sides expected the fighting to be over before Christmas in the first year of the conflict.
So-- Turkey expected the Syrian troubles to be short-lived and instead they're going on and on. What a surprise.
I wasn't sure before now. I had my suspicions of course, but couldn't be sure.
Now I'm sure.
There is at least one Redneck in Glasgow, Scotland.
Who will proudly take your assessment as a compliment.
From the BBC this afternoon:
Germany can cope with at least 500,000 asylum seekers a year for several years, Vice Chancellor Sigmar Gabriel has said.
Germany expects more than 800,000 asylum-seekers in 2015 alone - four times the 2014 figure.
Mr Gabriel reiterated that other EU states should share the burden.
I know that Scotland will do its share.
I know that Scotland will do its share.
As the USA does???
Keep in mind that without US meddling we wouldn't witness today neither a Syrian 'crisis' nor ISIL.
Wonder how the next mess done by the self-proclaimed 'world-police' will look like.
I will ignore the nonsense fro mjsmsprt40 as he comes from the State of would-be virtue, Illinois.
Scotland i understand will take some but not many. For an awful long time Scotland has had a population a fraction over 5 million but now for the first time has soared to a half million more. As the indigenous population bay producing is low it would not take anyone much intelligence (I include Illinois in passing) much brain power to work out where the growth is from. On top of that I have already intimated that Gt Britain has 8 million who were NOT born here and there is a limit an island can take. We also dish out far more than any other European country in aid as well and I think it is ridiculous that tens of thousands can just march into Europe and act as if they are something thus encouraging a stream that will go on and on. Who knows what this heavy intake might do in future years and decades either?
Basically war and fleeing such can be genuinely emotional but just to have floods of them at great cost and no end in sight brings up other important issues. In view of the intake we had under the Labour government lot of some 2 million and which is still going on in the numbers reaching 6-figures annually the pressures on the country are great. The media made great use of the tragedies and if things like the Turkish solider gently carrying the body of a three year old boy on a beach. Another was a photograph of a man and wife both lying together grasping a bay in their arms. What they did not say was that in a filmed version i noted on television the man did that quite deliberately for attention.
For large numbers to go through processing at camps in Turkey, etc whilst these legions march into Europe as if they owned it is all damn wrong. The government here was quite right to say that the 20,000 will be from the camps as the others who just ignore such and flock here to Europe get away with that? We have and are doing our bit but there has to be a limit and this place IS getting overcrowded and the cost in admin, housing, schools, welfare, health, etc is getting out of hand.
When one gets away from the emotion of what the media produces there has to be control over Euro entry and that those rich countries in the ME as I reminded do nothing is a disgrace. In a poll the other day it actually stated that some 27% were all for the lot skipping the camps and m,arching into Europe but 45% said "no" to this being allowed.
Keep in mind that without US meddling we wouldn't witness today neither a Syrian 'crisis' nor ISIL.
Wonder how the next mess done by the self-proclaimed 'world-police' will look like.
There are a range of ideas on the Middle East generally and Syria specifically.
So it's easy to say, hard to prove. I agree that the US has fiddled too much in the region, but you'll have to show me that Syria would be fine otherwise. Did the us cause the uprising against Assad? I don't think so.
In the meantime...
The German government is accused of selling weapons and security systems to dictatorial regimes and supporting them against democracy calls of their nations, especially in the Middle East and North Africa. Selling arms to such regimes takes place despite the fact that Saudi Arabia has not been playing a peaceful role in regional developments during the past few months.
It has been suppressing the popular uprising in Bahrain, on the one hand, while playing a sinister and destructive role in the Syrian unrest, on the other hand.
Israel, another major customer of German weapons in the Middle East is still pursuing its warmongering policies in the region after being delivered very advanced German submarines. Tel Aviv continues to threaten Iran with the use of force over Tehran’s nuclear energy program and has frequently underlined the role of these submarines in any possible attack against Iran.
Germany and Saddam’s Regime The issue which cannot be easily ignored is the high-profile part played by (former West) Germany and German companies in providing Iraq’s former Baathist regime with all kinds of weaponry during its eight years of imposed war against Iran. Experts say no country ever helped Iraq with building weapons production complexes and a chemical weapons arsenal as much as Germany did.
In the meantime, Iraq imported a total of about 625 million dollars worth of military equipment from Germany between 1982 and 1986 to become the fourth biggest importer of German weaponry in the world. Of course, the figure only encompasses weaponry exports for which an official permit had been issued.
I guess there's a bit of guilt everywhere.
It ems that a sizeable number of immigrants coming into places like Italy, etc refused to give information on themselves so that is a dangerous side to things.
It ems that a sizeable number of immigrants coming into places like Italy, etc refused to give information on themselves so that is a dangerous side to things.
From rj
"As the indigenous population bay producing is low it would not take anyone much intelligence (I include Illinois in passing) much brain power to work out where the growth is from."
Does this sentence mean ANYTHING to ANYBODY?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.meme.am%2Finstances%2F500x%2F55425855.jpg&hash=75e0820dca36c5ba7451d9960b7150e5" rel="cached" data-hash="75e0820dca36c5ba7451d9960b7150e5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/55425855.jpg)
"Get us out of here ensignbb3!"
The German government is accused of selling weapons and security systems to dictatorial regimes and supporting them against democracy calls of their nations, especially in the Middle East and North Africa. Selling arms to such regimes takes place despite the fact that Saudi Arabia has not been playing a peaceful role in regional developments during the past few months.
I believe the Dutch government sold a few hundred tanks to Saudi Arabia — supposedly we don't need them anymore.
So it's easy to say, hard to prove. I agree that the US has fiddled too much in the region, but you'll have to show me that Syria would be fine otherwise. Did the us cause the uprising against Assad? I don't think so.
Whatever you think...
It wasn't either the first nor the last uprising staged by the USA abroad.
BTW, the last one I know about was in the Ukraine. According to Victoria Nuland the USA did spent $5 Billion for a regime change there.
In the meantime...
The German government is accused of selling weapons and security systems to dictatorial regimes and supporting them against democracy calls of their nations, especially in the Middle East and North Africa...
Let's see:
- Saudi Arabia
I thought that Saudi Arabia is a close ally of the USA. BTW, military aircraft operated by Saudis (http://www.combataircraft.com/en/Military-Aircraft/Saudi-Arabia/).
- Israel
Who ever wrote that artcle must have been joking.
Who is the main military partner of Israel? Who vetoed several UN resolutions concerning Israel?
I assume, it won't be a hard guess for you.
- Bahrain
Isn't Bahrain another close ally of the USA? Am I missing something (http://militarybases.com/nsa-bahrain-navy-base-in-bahrain-bahrain/)?
- Saddam’s Regime
Experts say no country ever helped Iraq with building weapons production complexes and a chemical weapons arsenal as much as Germany did?
What do those experts say about the germs which Saddam got to build its biological arsenal? Guess wherefrom did Saddam got those germs?
Another guess that shouldn't be too hard for you. (hint - it wasn't Germany)
I guess there's a bit of guilt everywhere.
"Everywhere" might include Tuvalu as well. ;)
However the amount of guilt might differ substantially to say the least.
However the amount of guilt might differ substantially to say the least.
I feel soooo guilty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_biological_weapons_program#The_program (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_biological_weapons_program#The_program)
In the early 1980s, five German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin to Iraq. Iraq's State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) also ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.[3] Strains of dual-use biological material from France also helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program. From the United States, the non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples to Iraq up until 1989, which Iraq claimed to need for medical research...
I have no sympathy for too many things that the U.S. has done in its brief history. If we are somehow guilty for out histories, you might consider Germany's checkered history in the 20th century.
You're personally guilty for the Hitler era, aren't you?
(https://tothewire.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/swastika-inverted.jpg?w=300)
All of this guilt business is asinine, isn't it, to the extent that it is applied to people who have nothing to do with it?
Bye-bye, RjKrake!
Certainly much oif the West has been quite happy selling to some awful modern dictatorships but drifting back to the present European fiasco not all those we keep seeing on television are refugees. As for Germany allowing a massive flood some are saying it is because of the Nazi history. At least Mussolini wasn't much into exporting his fascist ideology! Wonder who the gauliters of Syria and Afghanistan were back then. Hhhmmm.an awful long way away. Now I note that Austria is getting a bit of a panic and is going to tighten up it's borders and quite right to do so. Hungary is correct too. It is not a big place and the numbers flocking into Europe will in the long run create all sorts of future situations not too healthy I may say. It is still a great annoyance of the large numbers who refuse to give any details of themselves but think that they should be able to get what they want no matter the financial cost to European countries.
I feel soooo guilty.
Whether you feel or not guilty, it's not my business.
However, pointing the finger at the US government is not the same thing as pointing it at you.
If you feel offended nevertheless for whatever reason, that's your problem. I can't help.
You're personally guilty for the Hitler era, aren't you?
(https://tothewire.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/swastika-inverted.jpg?w=300)
I wasn't even born at that time, so go and figure.
The things I'm speaking about, belong to the present. Wonder if you can grasp the difference?
Never mind.
Have a nice day, Mr. Whitewashwish! :)
Ich mochte bitte ein tasse kaffee. :coffee:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sectalk.com%2Fboard%2Fpublic%2Fstyle_emoticons%2Fdefault%2Ftrollface.gif&hash=665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" rel="cached" data-hash="665db6eec9584d69e6bd4e70d368aa3a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.sectalk.com/board/public/style_emoticons/default/trollface.gif)
Hier, bitte sehr. :)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.funzentrale.com%2Foriginal%2F2015%2F22%2F4437015374463734074072280-195297.jpg&hash=bdbbc81235ca96d3cb6f8d2dfbd19111" rel="cached" data-hash="bdbbc81235ca96d3cb6f8d2dfbd19111" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.funzentrale.com/original/2015/22/4437015374463734074072280-195297.jpg)
Now who is next for the smart alex list?! :D
Hier, bitte sehr. :)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.funzentrale.com%2Foriginal%2F2015%2F22%2F4437015374463734074072280-195297.jpg&hash=bdbbc81235ca96d3cb6f8d2dfbd19111" rel="cached" data-hash="bdbbc81235ca96d3cb6f8d2dfbd19111" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.funzentrale.com/original/2015/22/4437015374463734074072280-195297.jpg)
Danke herr! :coffee:
:P
This is one time I for one am inclined to stay the heck out of it. The only way to fix it would be to make Syria glow in the dark--- and nobody will like it if we do that.
http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/09/world-begs-us-military-force-syria-bitch-later/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=World%20Begs%20U.S.%20To%20Use%20Military%20Force%20in%20Syria%20So%20They%20Can%20Bitch%20About%20It%20Later (http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/09/world-begs-us-military-force-syria-bitch-later/?utm_campaign=coschedule&utm_source=facebook_page&utm_medium=Duffel%20Blog&utm_content=World%20Begs%20U.S.%20To%20Use%20Military%20Force%20in%20Syria%20So%20They%20Can%20Bitch%20About%20It%20Later)
This is one time I for one am inclined to stay the heck out of it. The only way to fix it would be to make Syria glow in the dark--- and nobody will like it if we do that.
< cough >
Did you check your source wherefrom you are quoting?
The Duffel Blog (http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/09/world-begs-us-military-force-syria-bitch-later/):
is an American military news satire organization featuring satirical articles reporting on US military news. It is often described as "the military version of The Onion."
:D
Krake--- you think I didn't know? Come on--- just read the piece and you know it's satire.
However, having been a member of DnD for all this time, and a member for quite awhile on MyOpera Debates and Discussions before that--- I daresay that bit of satire hits very close to the mark. I see very little from the "chorus" here that doesn't try to blame America for every bad thing that happens anywhere in the world.
Two people does not make a chorus. :P
I daresay that bit of satire hits very close to the mark.
Except it hits in the other direction. :D
I see very little from the "chorus" here that doesn't try to blame America for every bad thing that happens anywhere in the world.
Have you ever asked yourself, why America with its 1400 military bases abroad and not someone else like Switzerland?
Have you ever asked yourself, why America with its 1400 military bases abroad and not someone else like Switzerland?
Don't underestimate Switzerland, they control the Vatican guard... :)
Americans are increasingly being driven to believe that the world is against them (as if anyone had no better thing to do than to pay them attention...). Obviously a strategy for getting the population's support in order to maintain a belligerent, intrusive and irresponsible attitude all over the place that they confuse with "external policy".
This wave of refugees from Syria and around countries is the direct consequence of American (and also their European support) governments in keep governing against their population's will and desires.
A real on the spot assessment there, Belfrager.
Except it hits in the other direction.
Like in Bosnia and Kosovo?
Certainly as jimbro points out, America is a big place and Europe is of course not a country and many of the countries are not very big or have a lit of space and financial resources. About a third of the half a million flooded into Europeare Syerians but th rest come from all over the damn world and as far away from Europe as one can get - Yemen, Afghanistan, etc. That they think they can all just flood in willy-nilly from the far corners is a nerve and unacceptable. When you see some of their placards the thumbs up and so on they seem to think they should be applauded. We have been heavily funding camps and to help move people but this other lot think they can ignore that and do what the they like.
A real on the spot assessment there, Belfrager.
At the rate you two are finishing each other's thoughts/sentences, you'll be Catholic in no time Howie. :o :devil:
If I may, I'd like to broaden the context a bit because I think that what we are seeing now it's just a tip of the iceberg compared to what the world will face in the future.
The present crisis is seemingly about fleeing a war zone (Syria) yet what percentage of those people come from Syria? The answer is that they come from all over the place, See here, paras 4, & 5. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-24583286) Yes war seems be a major reason, but there are others, as rjh has pointed out such as economic for example.
But what is the future: I suggest that, as resources diminish we will see greater instances of famine in different parts of the world; we will also continue to see economic differences which will result in mass migration; as global warming takes effect we may even see migration due to that, or even population pressures of other kinds as individual countries reach their limits.
What I miss in the current "debate", or at least what passes for one, is a long term policy on how to deal with such migrants "swarms" in the future. ((an aside: the words "swarm" was a word used by David Cameron and he got a lot of stick for using it, but in fact it is quite a good analogy for a bulk influx of people suddenly appearing)).
To continue: Such migrations will again raise the questions we have today; tough questions such as
--- Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture
--- Are they fleeing persecution or danger
--- Are they economic migrants
--- Should they all be resettled or sent back and by what criteria
--- Which country should take them in, their arrival point (current international law) or shared
--- shared by whom, locally, or across a continent, across similar cultures or across the whole world
--- Who should pay
--- Who is going to answer these questions, each country by itself or by international agreement
So lots of questions which I think need to be answered for the long term, and this is as good a crisis as any to start trying to answer.
Because it will happen again and again an again
There is statistics. The relatively safe waters between Turkey and Greece are predominantly travelled by Syrians, Iraqi, and Afghans. Some Eritreans take this route, and while the number of Yemeni fleeing their civil war has been relatively low, this number is likely to increase unless or until this conflict is ended.
Swarm is not and was not an appropriate word, as it was used with intent and pre-meditation to take away people's humanity and individuality. I see no particular reason to be upset by that, he wasn't calling them "cockroaches", but neither is it something to be applauded or emulated. Politicians live and die by the word, and this was no off-the-cuff remark. Words might matter, but action, or inaction, matters more.
Britain, and yes Cameron, has a particular responsibility, as they were the primary force to torpedo the EU Mediterranean "Mare Nostrum" rescue fleet. Their theory was that rescuing people from drowning would encourage them to take the journey, and Our Sea has overflowed with deeply discouraged dead. Dead people in their hundreds could be laid at the doorsteps of Downing Street 10, but that might be considered an encouragement.
The UK government can feel encouraged that less Syrians take the Libyan route now, but then it was often quite involuntary to begin with. Syrians and other Asians take more natural Asian routes these days, leaving it for the Africans to take their chances in Libya.
At a first glance, I see too many questions:
To continue: Such migrations will again raise the questions we have today; tough questions such as
--- Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?
--- Are they fleeing persecution or danger And so what?
--- Are they economic migrants And so what?
--- Should they all be resettled or sent back and by what criteria Why not let them choose for themselves? Are they cattle? Are they criminals?
--- Which country should take them in, their arrival point (current international law) or shared Idem
--- shared by whom, locally, or across a continent, across similar cultures or across the whole world
--- Who should pay
--- Who is going to answer these questions, each country by itself or by international agreement
(...)
Because it will happen again and again an again
Well what an example of American high education Colonel Rebel is!
I am Catholic and the principles of Protestantism are with me on this one. Catholic of course means universal and I have no problem - it is Roman Catholic that IS the prob. The word is used in some Kirk services at certain times and rightly so as we are part of a universal faith and at the same time not part of the wanderings of the Roman use of the wording. Many years ago i had to actually explain to a woman higher than me in the city Education Dept why when we all chatted about some religious item I referred to her as a Roman Catholic and not Catholic. For an intelligent woman she was not aware what the word 'Catholic' meant and there were times when an anti-religious bloke argued she had to fall back on the Catholic Protestant as she was incapbae. Thank you John Knox, Marton Luther and co (!).
:knight:
Well what an example of American high education Colonel Rebel is!
I am Catholic and the principles of Protestantism are with me on this one. Catholic of course means universal and I have no problem - it is Roman Catholic that IS the prob. The word is used in some Kirk services at certain times and rightly so as we are part of a universal faith and at the same time not part of the wanderings of the Roman use of the wording. Many years ago i had to actually explain to a woman higher than me in the city Education Dept why when we all chatted about some religious item I referred to her as a Roman Catholic and not Catholic. For an intelligent woman she was not aware what the word 'Catholic' meant and there were times when an anti-religious bloke argued she had to fall back on the Catholic Protestant as she was incapbae. Thank you John Knox, Marton Luther and co (!).
:knight:
Since you've decided to be tiddling and nit-picky, I'll add "Roman" to my previous statement, right before the term "Catholic".
P.S.
Scotland will be independent in your lifetime. :yikes: :eyes: :nervous:
There is statistics. The relatively safe waters between Turkey and Greece are predominantly travelled by Syrians, Iraqi, and Afghans. Some Eritreans take this route, and while the number of Yemeni fleeing their civil war has been relatively low, this number is likely to increase unless or until this conflict is ended.
Swarm is not and was not an appropriate word, as it was used with intent and pre-meditation to take away people's humanity and individuality. I see no particular reason to be upset by that, he wasn't calling them "cockroaches", but neither is it something to be applauded or emulated. Politicians live and die by the word, and this was no off-the-cuff remark. Words might matter, but action, or inaction, matters more.
Britain, and yes Cameron, has a particular responsibility, as they were the primary force to torpedo the EU Mediterranean "Mare Nostrum" rescue fleet. Their theory was that rescuing people from drowning would encourage them to take the journey, and Our Sea has overflowed with deeply discouraged dead. Dead people in their hundreds could be laid at the doorsteps of Downing Street 10, but that might be considered an encouragement.
The UK government can feel encouraged that less Syrians take the Libyan route now, but then it was often quite involuntary to begin with. Syrians and other Asians take more natural Asian routes these days, leaving it for the Africans to take their chances in Libya.
I don't agree with your assertion that swarm is not apt, nor with the assumption that it was an intended belittling of the refugees by Cameron, such is the language of political bias. We can readily see that many of the refugees act as groups, following the current flow and favoured destinations and generated by some crisis. Any collective name is by definition collective, why even the term "refugees" puts such people into a box and is in no way used prejoratively. Indeed, there is, I see, a mathematics associated with the behaviour of swarms which might help in anticipating such things in the future. But at the time I think it was just a turn of phrase, not some Machiavellian insult.
It was an EU decision to curtail the Mare Nostrum effort, a decision which I agree was supported by Cameron, then recognised as a mistake and its successor operation supported by the UK.
At a first glance, I see too many questions:
To continue: Such migrations will again raise the questions we have today; tough questions such as
--- Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?
--- Are they fleeing persecution or danger And so what?
--- Are they economic migrants And so what?
--- Should they all be resettled or sent back and by what criteria Why not let them choose for themselves? Are they cattle? Are they criminals?
--- Which country should take them in, their arrival point (current international law) or shared Idem
--- shared by whom, locally, or across a continent, across similar cultures or across the whole world
--- Who should pay
--- Who is going to answer these questions, each country by itself or by international agreement
(...)
Because it will happen again and again an again
Sorry to confuse you, but I see the EU is making a start on some.
Language is always intentional when somebody using it for a living make prepared statements. It was by no means any anti-immigrant rant, you'd have to look elsewhere for that, but the intent was to depict migrants as a problem, tinged with threat of invasion. Some British media may have made too much out of it, doesn't mean it was untrue.
Other wordings I'm fine with. All refugees are migrants, not all migrants are refugees, including the European ones. EU decisions are made by some alliance/coalition of governments, with at least one of the big three, UK, France and Germany. They should be geared towards a reduction of death in transit, not the other way around.
Speaking of which, the EU has found the key for relocking refugees (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-15-5698_en.htm).
How has the distribution key for relocation been calculated?
The proposed distribution key is based on:
a) the size of the population (40% weighting),
b) the total GDP (40% weighting),
c) a corrective factor based on the average number of asylum applications per 1 million inhabitants over the previous five years (10% weighting with a 30% cap of the population and GDP effect on the key to avoid disproportionate impact)
d) a corrective factor based on the unemployment rate (10% weighting with a 30% cap of the population and GDP effect on the key to avoid disproportionate effect).
The corrective factors for the average numbers of asylum applications and unemployment rate are applied inversely, meaning that high existing asylum application numbers and a high unemployment rate would result in fewer individuals being relocated to a Member State.
Which nationals are most likely to benefit from the relocation scheme?
The relocation mechanism will only apply to those nationals who have an average EU-wide asylum recognition rate equal to or higher than 75%, on the basis of EUROSTAT data for the previous quarter. For 2014, two nationalities had a recognition rate above 75%: Syrians and Eritreans. According to the data for quarter 2 of 2015, the 75% threshold is now passed by Syrians, Eritreans and Iraqis. The nationalities falling within the threshold will be updated quarterly on the basis of EUROSTAT figures.
Why did the Commission choose the 75% recognition rate?
The 75% recognition rate threshold has two objectives: to ensure that all applicants who are in clear and urgent need of protection can enjoy their right of protection as soon as possible; and to prevent applicants who are unlikely to qualify for asylum from being relocated and unduly prolonging their stay in the EU.
This makes a lot of sense. From some countries, the three mentioned (Syria, Iraq, Eritrea), almost all refugees get asylum. From other countries, e.g. non-members from Former Yugoslavia and Albania, practically nobody does. The Balkan group comprises half the applicants to Germany and a high number of applicants in other countries.
In the meantime! (http://metro.co.uk/2015/09/24/turns-out-the-man-who-wanted-to-leave-manchester-only-pretended-to-be-an-illegal-immigrant-5405939/)
At a first glance, I see too many questions
Some of them deserve the predicate: "perverse"
Even the predicate "perverse" seems too pale for one of them: "Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture
And so what?"
After fu**ing up entire regions for 'convenient' regime changes, put the blame on the
culture of those you've fu**ed up.
At a first glance, I see too many questions
Some of them deserve the predicate: "perverse"
Even the predicate "perverse" seems too pale for one of them: "Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?"
After fu**ing up entire regions for 'convenient' regime changes, put the blame on the culture of those you've fu**ed up.
Understanding is not always possible, krake, by ignoring difficult questions.
The Taliban culture was a good example, I think, of a culture making life intolerable for its people and what about these people? (http://time.com/4031569/migrant-crisis-europe-african-refugees/). Each migration is different and has lessons to be learned. It's not all America's fault!
Understanding the reasons for mass migration is part of the task at hand which, as I wrote, is bigger than the current crisis.
Shifting blame to the US is very convenient, isn't it.
There is something to be said for "you break it, you buy it". Arguably the US broke Iraq, but they didn't break Somalia, they didn't break then-Yugoslavia (neither did Germany), nor Afghanistan for all Brzezinski's crowing, though they still have special responsibility, like Europe has for Libya, and Russia for Ukraine. Eritrea, the dictatorship that is now exporting so many of its own people, was the darling of the European radicals and the communists.
Understanding the reasons for mass migration is part of the task at hand which, as I wrote, is bigger than the current crisis.
Irrelevant. Unless somebody's going to
fix them.
Understanding the reasons for mass migration is part of the task at hand which, as I wrote, is bigger than the current crisis.
Irrelevant. Unless somebody's going to fix them.
To use a medical metaphor, a good diagnosis is always useful.
Btw, here's the passport power index: http://www.passportindex.org/byRank.php
It's more interesting bottom-up.
Not completely right there jax on the former Yugoslavia and America not supporting the breakaways. Anyway on the main theme I don't what us here to be taking any more people in. Two governments ago that mouth, Blair had 2 million dumped in this island and today politicians are squealing about financial issues but when it suits try to skip round immigrants. At last the other night on the BBC news mention was made of the strain on schools, housing, welfare, and constant arrivals making these matters damn worse in actual practice.
Thank goodness we were not part of that EC shambles agreement on immigrants, etc and the way that loopy organisation runs Europe is a joke. Ages ago we coped with the French Huguenots and the Irish but the island had a smaller populationand many of those flooding in here are going to be welfare cases. And isn't it interesting that all those floods of people on boats have life jackets?? In one tv news item a week or two ago many were bought in Turkey so profit is being made by some dastardly people. I Miss Enoch Powell.
Irrelevance, irrelevance, irrelevance. The only thing that matters is if we want to be an Europe that saves people or an Europe that abandons people.
The bottom line is that we have to do it for us in the first place, for our human and moral imperative. A better world begins with each of us caring about the other, not to leave him alone to disgrace and misfortune.
Indifference kills much more cats than curiosity.
There's been a suggestion that borderguards from the countries where the migrants are aiming at should be working/cooperating at Schengen external checkpoints. What do you think of this, Belfrager? Would you like Germans to patrol the coasts of Portugal?
Would you like Germans to patrol the coasts of Portugal?
I would. Not just Germans, of course.
There's been a suggestion that borderguards from the countries where the migrants are aiming at should be working/cooperating at Schengen external checkpoints. What do you think of this, Belfrager? Would you like Germans to patrol the coasts of Portugal?
Working/cooperation it's different from intromission and sovereignty reduction. I suppose that Schengen agreeements already establishes the conditions/requirements for cooperation between countries, what's needed and how it should be done.
Greece and Italy don't need German intromisson, they need all other members financial support for better performing a common cause.
All this problematic it's showing clearly the farse the UE has turned into under German "leadership". There's absolutely no common strategies, efforts or anything else but always the reinforcement of German (and it's facade alligned countries) authority and command.
Jaques Delors and others dream about an "Europe of Nations", one Country one vote, has finished. Every crisis turns it evident.
If we accept an "European Army" who's going to command it? Who's interests it will serve?
Irrelevance, irrelevance, irrelevance. The only thing that matters is if we want to be an Europe that saves people or an Europe that abandons people.
The bottom line is that we have to do it for us in the first place, for our human and moral imperative. A better world begins with each of us caring about the other, not to leave him alone to disgrace and misfortune.
Indifference kills much more cats than curiosity.
It's more complicated than re-settling anyone who gets off a boat, it is also about the wider issues some of which I mentioned above, including for example providing support of one kind or another to enable countries to provide a stable and attractive place for their people to live.
Take a look at this - Aid to developing countries rebounds in 2013 to reach an all-time high (http://www.oecd.org/newsroom/aid-to-developing-countries-rebounds-in-2013-to-reach-an-all-time-high.htm) which shows the bigger picture of such support world-wide in terms of total amount and as a % of GDP.
You can see which countries are really trying to help and which are not.
@Jax - ref my last post - do you know what China's approach to overseas aid might be?
It's more complicated than re-settling anyone who gets off a boat, it is also about the wider issues some of which I mentioned above, including for example providing support of one kind or another to enable countries to provide a stable and attractive place for their people to live.
We must not confuse things and even less as a way for getting excuses.
One thing is what to do whith those that are already here knocking at your door, that's what I speak about.
Another thing is what to do in order those that still remains there have what you say, the possiblity of living in their countires as they always done.
As for the second, it's very obvious that those already here are the consequence of what shouldn't had been done. Course the Atlantic is way too large for them to get to the main responsible's land.
It's more complicated than re-settling anyone who gets off a boat, it is also about the wider issues some of which I mentioned above, including for example providing support of one kind or another to enable countries to provide a stable and attractive place for their people to live.
We must not confuse things and even less as a way for getting excuses.
One thing is what to do whith those that are already here knocking at your door, that's what I speak about.
Another thing is what to do in order those that still remains there have what you say, the possiblity of living in their countires as they always done.
As for the second, it's very obvious that those already here are the consequence of what shouldn't had been done. Course the Atlantic is way too large for them to get to the main responsible's land.
??? What confusion? All the aspect I've mentioned are linked, so ignoring the implications of the influence of one over the other.
Have as look at This Graphic (http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2015/09/daily-chart). There you will see the top the league for accepting migrants is Sweden, and the success rate of applications to stay is the highest at 76.6%. Small wonder that migrants favour Sweden as a destination.
I don't see how many ultimately achieve residence in one country having been rejected by another (which would be interested to know).
I can't be bothered to research how many migrants are fleeing persecution/death, but I doubt it is 76.6%, and I also doubt that percentage is a consequence of western actions.
And so what? You speak about graphics, numbers and statistics, I speak about human beings.
For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.
That's all that matters when the time comes. I consider these being one of such times. Entire families are drowning at our shores.
We must resist to use abstractions in order to distract us from our moral imperatives.
I'm very cathegoric on this matter.
I'm very cathegoric on this matter.
Have you taken in any refugees — to your farm? :) Or have you expected your government to do so, on your behalf? :(
Have you taken in any refugees — to your farm? :)
I work for people who have nothing and consider to do so to be something more rewarding and fulfilling than anything I've done before.
Well i have in my non-work voluntary side done the same thing as Belfrager whilst my one reservation is that it does not mean an automatic open door on an island.
The refugee crisis has led to an upsurge in volunteer support among most of Europe. In Germany a school class decided that they too wanted to help the refugees.
How was that reported in the UK?
(Huffington Post UK (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/10/16/daily-express-children-forced-to-serve-migrants-story-ignores-fact_n_8310822.html))
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRYzHijU8AA8-iY.jpg)
How was that reported in the UK?
Simple, that Dolly Parton doesn't have cancer, just kidney stones.
The refugee crisis has led to an upsurge in volunteer support among most of Europe.
And an upsurge of far right national sentiments in wide parts of same Europe.
I assume you're back from China.
Actually I am going to China in a couple days.
Usually cause is expected to precede effect. The upsurge in the nasty right in many parts in Europe happened before the dramatic increase of refugees going to the EU. Most nasty right groups have stagnated or had a decline the last few years, so, unless these groups somehow attracted the refugees to come to Europe or the refugees caused the groups to collapse, causation is dubious.
The latter actually has happened to some extent with the less-nasty, e.g. in Norway the right-wing party use anti-immigrant rhetoric to shore up votes come election time. Unfortunately for them it happened at a time when the national mood turned and the rhetoric backfired badly. But on the whole high or low immigration level is not directly related to the extreme right, though immigrants are great foils for arson and murder.
It could be some years from now, depending on how competently migration is handled. Syrians (and also Eritreans, Iraqi, Afghans) have made themselves a significant part of German and Scandinavian economy. Badly managed this will come at a damaging political and economic cost. Well-managed North Europe just got bigger.
Syrians (and also Eritreans, Iraqi, Afghans) have made themselves a significant part of German and Scandinavian economy.
I can't tell for Scandinavia but the above statement doesn't apply to Germany.
A few facts on the ground:
The average refugee is a male at age between 18-30.
More than 80% of them are unqualified, I mean without any professional training.
Those few which have a professional training, don't meet the standards required here.
Afirming that these people are or will be anytime soon a significant part of our economy is a huge stretch to say the least...
However, if by "significant part of economy" you mean huge expenses, than the statement is true.
Some might be interested in this foreigner's perspective on Pegida:
I was riding the U-bahn when I saw a couple of papers that had been left on the floor: there was a Pegida rally occurring here in Munich in a couple of days. Pegida (a German acronym for "Patriotische Europäer gegen die Islamisierung des Abendlandes," which translates to "Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the Occident") is a notorious protest group which was formed last year, and since then has been protesting... well... the Islamisation of the Occident. I didn't know much about them, and I suppose there wasn't much to know, really: they were, as far as I could tell, like pretty much any other group of Western people who were trying to preserve their cultural and ethnic heritage against the influx of foreigners streaming into their country. I knew, also, that they had received a lot of opposition from pretty much everyone: they are often compared to Nazis or labeled an "extreme right-wing" group, and I don't think I've ever met someone who actually voiced support for them, but I've seen plenty of people voice opposition to them.
I was curious enough that I ended up going to the rally. I'm not really the sort of person to get involved in political demonstrations or events, because I don't think that they do much good, and they serve more to disrupt the civil peace than anything else, but I'd never actually been to a genuine political rally, and I thought that since Germany is going through a historic moment with all the people flooding into it from the Middle East, now would be a good time to watch history unfolding as people react to the events happening around them.
[…]
I've only bothered to inform myself about this particular event through the French news:
Pour célébrer son premier anniversaire, le mouvement d’extrême droite Pegida (Patriotes européens contre l’islamisation de l’Occident), qui réunit ses partisans tous les lundis à Dresde (Saxe, est de l’Allemagne), avait promis, lundi 19 octobre, un rassemblement exceptionnel. Il le fut. Non en raison du nombre de participants – Pegida a déjà réuni davantage que les 15 000 à 18 000 personnes comptabilisées – mais en raison des propos qui y ont été tenus. L’invité vedette, Akif Pirinçci, un écrivain allemand d’origine turque a en effet regretté la disparition des camps nazis. Un délit passible, selon certains juristes, de trois à cinq ans de prison.
[…]
Akif Pirinçci is an asshole, maybe even an agent provocateur.
Aside of Pegida and far-right nationalists, the average citizen is worried and there are good reasons for it.
It's no wonder that Frau Merkel's approval rates are shrinking dramatically.
I have a feeling that many of these long columns are economic ones and what makes me sigh is that so many wave at the camera or smile as if they are something special. That places can be overflowed or not be able to cope with them matters not a jot as if it is some deeply embedded right. The EEC is a damnable mess of a thing and neither do you have to be away out on the would-be far right stuff we get hit with on the news to object. The EU is a mess, is financially a shambles and corrupt as hell and time the thing collapsed.
Simple, that Dolly Parton doesn't have cancer, just kidney stones.
Don't forget "Sin bin for Boris after rugby ruck with 10-year-old."
That's important, too.
Yep.
Yep.
That lies in their culture.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKv6o7YqHnE[/video]
Better than Shakespeare. Almost, that is.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsXKT5RhJf8[/video]
The story of two wetsuits.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2y3Uspr8Bg[/video]
Very sad story. This one's lighter.
https://www.ted.com/talks/maz_jobrani_a_saudi_an_indian_and_an_iranian_walk_into_a_qatari_bar?language=en (https://www.ted.com/talks/maz_jobrani_a_saudi_an_indian_and_an_iranian_walk_into_a_qatari_bar?language=en)
I grant you, the guy's routine is funny…
Two Arabs walk into a bar. One says to the other, "Have I got time for a drink?"
"I don't know," says the other: "Let me check my vest…"
Not so funny.
It can be taken as a basically sad story but this an increasing trait on the media I am afraid. Time after time we got repeats of the policeman finding a dead bay on a beach people had landed on. There has also been other tales of individuals with a child or children the subtly trait being given that the main prooprtion of immigrants are children.
As for the Calais mess last month i came across a passing news item where a known British charity had retreated from the Calaise involvement as they thought it was essentially people who were more economic than principally crowded with around 2 million under the last government. It is so easy to nurture the emotions already challenging matter of housing, education, health services, welfare et al. Space and cost are not persistent open doors. The south east of England needs a million new homes in the next decade, London's numbers ever enlarging as are other places. The pressure is there and subtly ignored by the overly emotional brigade minds.
It is also very clever how comments such as the value to countries - oh yeah? Our Welfare State is a big attraction and the cost mushrooming on health and money items. Neither can we keep a permanent open door because where are they going to live? Migrants tend to have big families and indeed give more births that the indigenous who decline in that sphere. We also get this modern stuff that some tradtions who settle here moan about not getting enough from the State or the country??Kind of almost laughable where in places the indigenous are rapidly becoming a minority (like London!) and so on. So it is one thing to help immigrants BUT there has to be a limit because of not hust the space but the sheer increasing cost of legions coming in.We have had over 350 incidents on suspected terror machiniations and not from the indigenous and the other night when i heard one fighter for the immigrants saying that they did not get enough from us I had to shake my dashed head.
German app to teach refugees how to live in Germany (https://www.ankommenapp.de/)...
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUlwZT2n.jpg&hash=221d38c7dc8ed46c1d19eb0c88003299" rel="cached" data-hash="221d38c7dc8ed46c1d19eb0c88003299" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/UlwZT2n.jpg)
This is more to the point.
(https://33.media.tumblr.com/6565272775f7dc3bd5886e586257d6f3/tumblr_nwaboiQeiZ1txekqdo1_500.gif)
German app to teach refugees how to live in Germany (https://www.ankommenapp.de/)...
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FUlwZT2n.jpg&hash=221d38c7dc8ed46c1d19eb0c88003299" rel="cached" data-hash="221d38c7dc8ed46c1d19eb0c88003299" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/UlwZT2n.jpg)
You probably mean: "app to teach how to
behave". ;)
I notice that earlier here the would-be open minded liberal entourage commenting about anti-immigration in Europe use the rightist patter. That is a rather poor attempt at almost justifying the open door mentality. The sheer cost of immigration is an added pressure on the continent and money is not massive. Germany has already seen what the open door mentality brings - a million extra costing people. In addition we get emphasise on news item on children and they do suffer but it is being used subtly. Two governments ago here in GB the Labour party overseen an inflyx of 2 million onto this small island and the do-gooding fraternity seem to think this sharing can continue indefinitely? We already have too many and as a side to that the lot in that "jungle camp" at Calais are mostly money seekers.
Europe will not be able to cater for these armies of fleers no matter what the extra good might want to brain us with. This island is expected to keep population rising to over 70 million within a decade and continue in that mode. The pressure on social affairs, health services,crime, schools, housing(plus ghettos) and so is getting very strained and the sheer cost of the arriving is ridiculous.
Turkey is a mess of a country as it is and it is getting money to stem the travellers hut this is another damn mess. Turkey could be doing something to stop the constant flow of people. Last night I watched a Turkish police car stopping and the officers got out and stood watching the people being crowded onto a large and dangerous dinghy to the poin of danger. What did they do/ They just didn't bother got in the car and drove away.
You probably mean: "app to teach how to behave". ;)
Nope, it's about many different aspects of life in Germany (LEARN GERMAN - LIVING IN GERMANY - ASYLUM, APPRENTICESHIP, JOB).
As one can conclude from the above picture it's not forbidden to put your hands on a man's ass...
Another example of life in Germany:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtkaZ5G8.jpg&hash=bf2c07048e880dbd5caadd47cb451f50" rel="cached" data-hash="bf2c07048e880dbd5caadd47cb451f50" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/tkaZ5G8.jpg)
Disguised under "a guide" I see nothing but treating refugees as childish idiots.
Nope, it's about many different aspects of life in Germany (LEARN GERMAN - LIVING IN GERMANY - ASYLUM, APPRENTICESHIP, JOB).
Another example of life in Germany:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FtkaZ5G8.jpg&hash=bf2c07048e880dbd5caadd47cb451f50" rel="cached" data-hash="bf2c07048e880dbd5caadd47cb451f50" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/tkaZ5G8.jpg)
Sorry but you got it wrong. It wouldn't be for the first time. :)
an attempt to instruct the newcomers in proper behavior in the form of a 14-panel cartoon (http://www.br.de/fernsehen/ard-alpha/sendungen/punkt/kulturguide-arabisch-100.html) similar to an airplane safety information card
Anyway, an app to learn Portuguese (since it's a less difficult language than German) would make probably more sense...
Imagine - millions of refugees rebuilding Portugal and making it the most shiny place in Europe. Wonder if you can. ;)
Anyway, an app to learn Portuguese (since it's a less difficult language than German) would make probably more sense...
Wonder why there's not one single German that can speak it properly...
Imagine - millions of refugees rebuilding Portugal and making it the most shiny place in Europe. Wonder if you can.
You have a very strange concept of "shiny place"... :eyes:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FchNe2Et.jpg&hash=10357e66ae442b6eb057cd85041235ba" rel="cached" data-hash="10357e66ae442b6eb057cd85041235ba" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/chNe2Et.jpg)
The 4th Reich messed up their participation of the over the top influx and expect everyone else to be as daft.
There have been other people slaughtered but it is always the Jews who are specialised. Turkey did a mass killing of Kurds in the early 19th century and the Communists in Cambodia did the same. Both those incidents are in 7 figures. The Soviets transported hundreds of thousands far away from their traditional homelands (and far more killed than Jews) so such is history.
What I iften notice about thismEuropean migrant invasion is the number of participants who wave at the camera, smile and so on. Now I can accept there are genuine people fleeing war and such but they cannot all keep coming to Eorope because it is more advanced, prosperous, etc than there places but it simply cannot continue practically. In Germany there are not enough places to put them and one of the tv channels here did a hour on the subject and towns are already feeling the satrain and put into all sorts of places such as empty workshops or small factories. Families are separated by sheets they put up.
In Germany alone at the present rate of the flow by the end of 2016 there will have been another million. What should have happened is for more settlements nearer to places like Syria Nd Iraq which would make more prctical sense than the very serious problems Europe is getting and will continue to do so. Turkey is a disgusting partner in the flow to Europe and the sellers in Turkey get a good wack selling life jackets. Why doesn't that semi-dictatorship not do more to ease things/ Te hard truth is it hasn't bothered it's backside and the West still treats that control freak excuse of a so-called democracy as if it is something.
The obvious solution to it all.............is Scotland.
Those rouges have only 5 million ppl and are facing the same problem the Japanese are facing; too many old folk and not enough young 'uns to pay taxes to support the old folks.
As an apparently keen observer of Scottish and British politics, no doubt our reputable R.J. Howie has foreseen what the ever smarmy D. Cameron intends to do; ship the 100,00 or so migrants up north, before they vote on independence again in 2020. :sherlock:
I await Mr. Howie's no doubt colorful response, but leave him with this:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vkYiCdn834[/video]
No I won't listen to that keech dear boy and with HM The Queen's picture on my living room above the fireplace, King William of Orange on a bedroom wallI emphasise the cry of my corner on "No Surrender" (shouted from the walls of Londondery during the terrible sige of Londonderry in 1688 :up:)
Another 3 months and the annual marching season of hundreds of lodges that are all Unionist will be in full process. :knight: :hat:
ps. I also still have one of the great principled man General Robert .E Lee on another room.
No I won't listen to that keech dear boy and with HM The Queen's picture on my living room above the fireplace, King William of Orange on a bedroom wallI emphasise the cry of my corner on "No Surrender" (shouted from the walls of Londondery during the terrible sige of Londonderry in 1688 :up:)
Another 3 months and the annual marching season of hundreds of lodges that are all Unionist will be in full process. :knight: :hat:
ps. I also still have one of the great principled man General Robert .E Lee on another room.
lol, I'll never understand your aversion to your own country's national anthem. Understandable that you prefer God Save the Queen, as you are an ardent monarchist, but to dislike Oh Flower of Scotland is perplexing to say the least.
One assumes this is the picture?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sonofthesouth.net%2Fleefoundation%2Frobert-e-lee-pictures%2Frobert-e-lee.jpg&hash=ca79d3a749919b57fb70d0d120f51686" rel="cached" data-hash="ca79d3a749919b57fb70d0d120f51686" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/robert-e-lee-pictures/robert-e-lee.jpg)
Rihanna can speak for himself but I suspect it is because it is overtly Nationalistic. From the English perspective it is anti english but it is also anti Unionist Scottish.
It probably did not matter a few years ago but the Scottish Referendum has divided Scotland and increased sensitivities.
Of course Scotland is not the only country to have such outmoded hostilities in their National Anthem.
String does touch on factual points and that dirge "Flower of Scotland" is a dreadfully anti-English far too indepth nationalistic load of Scots keech. At the last General election I was one of well into 400,000 Scots who voted for a Scottish Unionist party and will do so again at the next Scottish Parliament one. The hundreds of all-Britain Orange Lodges and plus the Black Order Lodges sing God Save The Queen at the end of meetings, rallies. Indeed they actually sing the two verses and before some amateuristic history limited brain comes on and yaps that there was a verse at rebellious Scots that was never part of the actual Anthem. Mind you when there were rebellious Scots like at 1745 and that creep "Bonnie" Prince Charles he was defeated resoundingly at Culloden by a British Army with as many Scots as English in it so good for them! :knight:
On the theme of immigration there are enough immigrants into Europe and Gt Britain and the massive numbers of Muslims a basis for a future Armageddon. :mad:
On the theme of immigration there are enough immigrants into Europe and Gt Britain and the massive numbers of Muslims a basis for a future Armageddon. :mad:
I think the massive number of protestants in the North to be much more worst for Europe...
In fact, protestants are nothing but the sunites of christianism. Or the xiites... depending on the approach.
Whoo-hoo! Now wasn't it Papist mixture of Christianity and paganism that showed how to burn people to death, boil in tubs of oil and create instruments to torture and dissect people to death. Protestantism set the sites on getting back to the simplicity of the man from Galilee as well as greater freedoms and laying the ground for democracy. Tell you what Belfrager. You take in the army of people and see how long the country lasts.
Tell you what I will do. I am conducting and preaching at a city centre church (for the second time) during a minister vacancy next Sunday and will think about you dear boy. Next time you are in a masshouse don't faint because a Prod is praying for you and an Orangeman at that! :cheers:
ps. That is (diet) Irn Bru in the glass as I don't drink.
By the way Colonel that is as I have known for a long time an excellent picture of a man who was highly regarded and respected. His men getting a new uniform made for him when he went to sigh the surrender papers says much. Everyone remember this. He had no slaves but the founding President of that mess-up called the USA Washington had them!
Another day, another assault reported from Germany.
https://www.rt.com/news/330967-germany-elderly-attack-train/ (https://www.rt.com/news/330967-germany-elderly-attack-train/)
Merkel was a fool to accept male refugees. It will be her political untergang.
Merkel was a fool to accept male refugees. It will be her political untergang.
I agree on this and most people here no matter of what political color do as well.
Wonder if you know why she did it. At any rate it wasn't human kindness something she was praised for oversea.
But the ultimative plan of our ally had to be cached into a toughing narrative...
She got duped and tries now disperately to paddle back so far she can.
Nobody really cares about her political future, something that isn't important.
Due to her stupidity she did a lot of harm to the EU - raise of nationalism, xenophobia and social tensions. It's a dangerous mix...
The damage she did in Germany is immense. No, I don't even take into account the aprox 50 billions of EUR which the tax payer will have to pay for refugees this year. The political damage is much worse.
The fourth pillar of a democracy is a somehow functioning free press. If you turn the media exclusively into a propaganda tool at a degree that even the stupid can realise the lie than you get a problem. Not only that nobody will believe anymore what your "free" press tells but it will be met with hostility.
We are at a point now that reporters of the "free" press need bodyguards when reporting live from demonstrations - the result of bias and falsehood.
The public service television financed with tax money and supposed to be independent, became a propaganda and desinformation cornet that hurts any normal being's intellect.
Well, I'll stop here because I get only pissed off thinking about it and the above should suffice for my todays English exercise. ;)
The sheer cost of all these armies of "refugees" is something else never mind the aftermath in the longer term. The thing has got out of hand and that damn country and control freak, Turkey has a lot to answer for too. As for that lot at Calais money is the aim for most of them. We have had eniugh on this island and when I listen to all the guff of the so-called concerned and allegedly open minds they always ignore the question of cost where they will live and so on. Already education, housing, welfare and much else is under strain and especially down south in England although the population up here has seen a marked increase. Trouble also is that ghettos become standard and many of the indigenous flee. All of which contradicts that mindset I mention who studiously ignore too the fact that we live n an ever increasing over populated island. That we are expected to take on board the population will soar to over 70 million the "experts predict 100 million by the end of the century.
The traditional indigenous (and I remember when London was once a traditional English city) has been on the slope down to around what is it 1.4 children? The incomers have big families and the day will come when the community divisions will not be nice to know later this century.
and the above should suffice for my todays English exercise. ;)
People are exercising too much English... it affects the brain.
Too much self styled pomposity on this form and that latest rubbish from Barulheira well proves my point. Anyone who has an average brain wil know how statisticians and the experts in such fields operate. What I have said is direct as always and the grey cell assumers sniffingly cannot answer such so drift into their world of incapability. For the feeble brainers here may I simply point out ho the experts average things. Now have your bedtime glass of milk and biscuit give a parent a hug and get to sleep for school in the morning.
A little bit of humour and imagination can help sometimes.
I love short remarks.
People are exercising too much English
Who here writes Portuguese? Raise your hands, please.
People are exercising too much English... it affects the brain.
You have all my compassion dear Bel. :(
If you think the damage is persistent, why don't you consult a doctor?
:lol: The German kind of humour...
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/20/34/6e/20346e6e15ecf23e80442ea1a8b272a2.jpg)
Merkel was a fool to accept male refugees. It will be her political untergang.
I agree on this and most people here no matter of what political color do as well.
Wonder if you know why she did it. At any rate it wasn't human kindness something she was praised for oversea.
But the ultimative plan of our ally had to be cached into a toughing narrative...
She got duped and tries now disperately to paddle back so far she can.
Nobody really cares about her political future, something that isn't important.
Due to her stupidity she did a lot of harm to the EU - raise of nationalism, xenophobia and social tensions. It's a dangerous mix...
The damage she did in Germany is immense. No, I don't even take into account the aprox 50 billions of EUR which the tax payer will have to pay for refugees this year. The political damage is much worse.
The fourth pillar of a democracy is a somehow functioning free press. If you turn the media exclusively into a propaganda tool at a degree that even the stupid can realise the lie than you get a problem. Not only that nobody will believe anymore what your "free" press tells but it will be met with hostility.
We are at a point now that reporters of the "free" press need bodyguards when reporting live from demonstrations - the result of bias and falsehood.
The public service television financed with tax money and supposed to be independent, became a propaganda and desinformation cornet that hurts any normal being's intellect.
Well, I'll stop here because I get only pissed off thinking about it and the above should suffice for my todays English exercise. ;)
1. I expect we nudged her into it (but of course, PR also played a part, as I think you'll agree).
2. RT (a tad biased of course) has reported extensively on the censorship of y'alls press. That is perplexing to me, seeing as how Putin routinely censors their press.
3. Wenn ich mehr Deutsch sprechen könnte, würde ich auf Deutsch schreiben. Leider kann ich nicht. :(
1. I expect we nudged her into it (but of course, PR also played a part, as I think you'll agree).
The plan was to flush Syria leaving Assad as allone as possible. The PR part was that people is fleeing from Assad's troops. (BTW, our actual mainstream tenor is that people are fleeing from Russian bombs.)
Therefore her public call aimed at Syrians only(!) with the promise of a safe harbor in Germany. It was meant to be received by the Syrian middle class (at least what still left from it) and Assad's military.
She was to stupid to realize that the plan was a double edged sword...
Human lifes have never been (or are) an issue, neither for her nor for the US led coalition, cynically named: "Friends of Syria"
Now she pays billions of EUR to sultan Erdogan in the hope that he might be helpful in stopping the flood, while she turns a blind eye to the terror/killings the sultan unleashed lately at home on Turkish Kurds.
3. Wenn ich mehr Deutsch sprechen könnte, würde ich auf Deutsch schreiben. Leider kann ich nicht. :(
Your German is just fine and this is an English language forum anyway. :)
I can't sing, either, but I speak decent English. And I understood the Rebel's Deutsch!
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMVFL1yAw9E[/video]
Another day, another assault reported from Germany.
https://www.rt.com/news/330967-germany-elderly-attack-train/ (https://www.rt.com/news/330967-germany-elderly-attack-train/)
Merkel was a fool to accept male refugees. It will be her political untergang.
Ah, yes, another assault from RT.
Russia having success in hybrid war against Germany (http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2016/02/07/russia-having-success-in-hybrid-war-against-germany/)
Until recently, Germany had largely been spared the wrath of Russia’s state propaganda machine. Germans, in their eagerness to be conscientious world citizens and reliable business partners, were seen in the Kremlin as allies to coddle and co-opt. That view changed abruptly in 2014, when Angela Merkel led the drive for European Union sanctions to punish Russia for its war against Ukraine. Now, as the German chancellor flounders domestically because of her open-door refugee policy, she has made herself vulnerable to attack. “I’ve never seen so much glee from the Russians as during Germany’s refugee crisis,” said a diplomat in Berlin.
On Jan. 16, Russia’s state-run Channel One led the 9 o’clock evening news with a shocking report from Berlin. “Evidence has emerged that migrants in Germany have started raping children,” presenter Yekaterina Andreyeva said in the intro. That evidence came in the form of testimony by the “Aunt Marina” of a teenage girl, identified as Lisa, who claimed she had been abducted on her way to school and raped by migrants for more than a day. More proof that Germany is going to hell in a hand basket was a blurry video of a supposed recent arrival who bragged about raping a “virgin” with five other men. (Germany’s Bild newspaper later reported that the video had appeared on YouTube more than six years ago.)
The story you with the hoodlums you referred to I think is actually real, though not Syrian and not refugees. Of course the Russians are not the only ones with a well-developed and modernised propaganda apparatus. A bit like early spam it was easy to see who was behind it, what they wanted and how fake it was, atrocious spelling and ridiculous plot. Now we got scams that are very professional and very believable for non-paranoid among us. Likewise propaganda is no longer of the crude Stalinist or Comical Ali variety.
Facebook, and to a large extent similar social media, is particularly vulnerable to manufactured viral untruth, and counter-strategies are not working too well.
Ah, yes, another assault from RT.
Is this also an assault from RT?
Two minors raped by four ... (http://mobile2.bazonline.ch/articles/568e5f83ab5c377b3c000001)
Guess what, no single word about it in our media.
Fact is that there are guidelines to keep secret crimes committed by refugees. AFAIK, not only here in Germany.
The events in the night of New Year's Eve have been kept secret for almost two days. In the end they had to bring it into our media because social media networks did already run hot...
The transatlantic call to unleash the media/propaganda war, bears its fruits... Not neccessary the one it was hoped for.
"Lügenpresse" is the new label our media can choke on over its biased campaign.
Nice source you got Jax, bild.de is the most rotten tabloid one can imagine. Compared to it, the British tabloid "The Sun" is for high profile intellectuals. :)
As for the 13 years old Lisa:
- First official comment in "Der Spiegel": Nothing at all happened. It's a lie.
- Days later: She had no sex during the time of her disappearance.
- Days later: Well, she had sex but it was before her disappearance. And anyway, the sexual contact with the two guys (of Turkish origin?) was on mutual compliance...
Turkey is a farce of a country. You just have to see the way the press and government opposition is treated and if you dare to criticise the President watch out. I indicated a wee while back of an incident on a news item on tv that showed the Turkish police stopping to watch migrants loading up n those dodgy boats and did nothing they just got back into the car and rove off. It is also a disgrace in relation to the Syrian crisis and the Kurds. Democracy?
I have mused on the so-called figures of deaths in Syria. A year ago it was over 100,000" then within weeks it was over 150 thousand now we are getting assumptions of over 200 thousand or near a quarter of a million. In Leppo the largest city now in a full military conflict again the West deliberately ignores that one half of the place supports the Assad regime and the other half the rebels of all sorts. Now thrown in the stuff about Russian planes killing civilians in the civil war. Now this would indicate an oddity in that US and Western bombers cannot killcivilians? Remarkable! However remembering how the US destroyed a hospital and had a long list of killing lots of civilians in Afghanistan, etc I will not be too easily moved from my view.
I dare say that the Syrian government does have some blame in a civil war but for goodness sake let us not have any lectures from the West in the record it has in supporting vile dictatorships like places such as saudi Arabia and others. Whether people in the west through subtle propaganda see only one side in Syria is a nonsense as there are people in Syria who do support Assad whether our politicians like it or not. America also pumped in guns and military equipment to "moderates" then they found hardly any "moderates" got the stuff it was more dangerous people but that is quickly ignored. Trkey is up to it's neck in dishonesty leetting ISIS cross the Border and move oil etc but then that is okay because that semi-dictatorship is in the war-mongering lot from the past namely, NATO.
Whatever faults there were in Syria there was freedom of religion for example and now we have Christians everywhere fleeing and many of their villages and places destroyed by rebels. Navies should have been employed a while ago to stop these dinghy convoys of people and so too should Turkey have stopped them. The Turks who seell the dingy fare are making lots of money.Principles? Tosh