Democracy in America…

Topic: Democracy in America… (Read 69242 times)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #250 – 2014-11-19, 17:09:59

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-11-19, 04:17:39

(Unless you secure some "privileged class" special deal…) This is

Don't get it? Getting rid of net neutrality is what will create special classes. Net Neutrality has been the default from the beginning, and now it's ever so sinister. Having different hosts artificially constrained by the telecoms will slow down the entire internet, hence the "Internet Slowdown" protest. This is just the nature of the network. This will include those in the "internet fast lanes." You can argue that through improvements in technology, the internet will not actually get slower - if you actually presented something to counter my arguments. That might be true, however the network will still not operate at optimum bandwidth, ie it will be slower than it should be. With less than optimal capacity, the internet in the US will not be able to support, or will poorly support future web technologies, ie faster and improved methods of video streaming, true web applications (not simply links to sites that can do just one simple thing, as many or most of them are now.) This in part political argument, part technological. This covers the technological in the simplest of terms possible.

The political argument, again is free speech. The internet will be the primary tool of exercising the First Amendment rights in the future. Indeed, you can say that is already. If you can assign additional bandwidth to favored hosts, you can reduce it for hosta whose content is "controversial" (including conservative to rightwing ones. But it gets worst. The government has already demanded user info from service providers such as Verizon. Now the government will have the tools to have dissenting voices bandwidth throttled. Dynamic IP addresses, you might say. Tracking the change from one IP to another is trivial. Think most, if not all VPNs can't be tracked and cracked. Think this is Katsungian? I can see that, but within the loss of treating all internet traffic equally is the potential for tyranny. (for the sake of a reminder, net neutrality is not an Obama thing, but how the internet has been since day one. )

Quote from: Macallan on 2014-11-19, 10:39:06

Possibly, but mostly weapon grade projection

Quite so. He can't make it through a single post without a personal attack on me.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #251 – 2014-11-20, 03:59:27

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-11-19, 04:17:39

You could read Epstein's Hoover Institute piece "Hands Off The Web"… But you won't like it.

Not for the reasons you think. It seems to confuse the various prices plans offered by the ISPs with lose of network neutrality. I have a decent plan with a major ISP (10 Mbps down with C+e will likely remain the same. Nor does it address that for technical reasons, the content providers (including the most bandwidth heavy one - Netflix) oppose lose of network neutrality, despite the fact they stand to gain monetarily by charging the cable companies extra for the bandwidth they use from their servers.

The article on the site named after the president who's economic policies were the greatest failing in US economic history says this silliness "Preemptive rate regulation will not do anything other than retard the huge expansion of the Internet that has taken place under current legal regimes" despite the arguments that current startups, including Facebook likely could not have occurred with network neutrality? FB is easy to deride, all the pages asking you to "like" them, numerous videos of idiots doing idiotic things, etc. But such startups have also grown into major means of exercising First Amendment rights, which is what this thread ostensibly is about. Further at the time of the AT&T breakup, it was a near monopoly (with a couple smaller competitors, MCI and Sprint that weren't much of a threat.) In fact, the destruction of the original AT&T opened the door for greater innovation by it's successor companies. Yes, AT&T put itself back together but now with innovations that wouldn't have happened under the old monopoly. Lest you forget, monopolies tend not innovate.

Lose of net neutrality means that the ISPs could throttle traffic to apps and sites that are not their own, and direct users to their own content by force and thus dissenting opinions are given inadequate bandwidth, despite the user paying for a fast plan. In the days of AOL, a common compliment was busy signals while attempting to access the network (which were in part a function of the limited, dial-up technology at the time. ) Now we'll can have a "busy signal" when attempting to access, or even create content on sites and apps not controlled by the ISP or it's allies. As I've said before, it doesn't even have to be deliberate given that bandwidth is a finite resource. Therefore, it's intellectually incoherent to claim to a supporter of freedom of speech and expression, which not supporting net neutrality.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #252 – 2014-11-20, 05:06:37

Well now Sanguinemoon being an average Joe you won't know much about what is supposed to be democracy and ther light for the world.

A Democrat machine was out in front with corporate money ast the last Preseidential circus that passes for an election sustem. It was a Demcrat regime that brought out more drones and killing people than the previous man GW Bush. Bush for all his faults actually had corporate money fraudsters charged - how many did the Democrat President do? None.It actually doesn't matter a hoot who is in the White House the imperialism continues with all those hundreds of military bases, get involved in wars to boost the copers of the armament industry. City police forces increasingly like the army (you are slowly heading for a police state). Heavens even have soldiers out on city streets! Towns going bankrupt including the big city of Detroit with large numbers of people switched off from water. I watched the city fire brigade in a documentary and the the city has more fires than anywhere in the country and the firemen haaen't had a raise for a long time. Even have to deal with dud gear! Imagine a massive bankrupt city in a modern country tens of millions of poor. And to crown it all the turnout at the national election was pathetic so that tells you the undercurrent amgst so many people who see it pointless to bother voting. It is a cosy system for the scores of millionaires on the Hill and any idea of for the people went a long time ago.

Vote for outwith the Republicans and Democrats? No chance as those two have sewn the system up. The very practical internal history internally contradicts the principle of democracy. Saying it is a basic capitalist society is now wrong as Wall Street now gets away with just about anything like jailing the money stealers I mentioned nor their misuse of the capitalist basis.

The traditional gap between the top and the bottom will of course always be there but the gap is now a massive chasm as the ordinary citizen struggles with no such success. Sneer all you like but my facts are there and what you need to do is get out and look and will realise you and the people are being dreadfully conned.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #253 – 2014-11-21, 03:20:37

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-11-19, 19:59:27

the site named after the president who's economic policies were the greatest failing in US economic history

You're a child of your age, Sang; and you believe all the ideological spin you were spoon-fed. Such pap -as history- is only fit for anemic "soldiers"… cannon fodder for the progressives. (I'll italicize the term — for a while: You can re-claim liberal -from me- when you show substantial liberal tendencies.) The policies of the first FDR administration were those of the Hoover administration… Whatever good came from them redounds to him.
But history is not your forte.

Let's return to something else which is not your forte: Economics.
Net Neutrality is a scheme to spread scarce resources in such a way as to make everyone unhappy — socialism, applied to the Net. Re-distribute bandwidth according to demand…as determined by bureaucrats.
Google, Yahoo, Netflix and others know their demands upon the pipes are excessive. They'd rather not pay a premium for access; but they also don't want to provide such access themselves. (There are signs that they can and would, given politically sanctioned and partially-funded agreements with local governments… I'm not opposed to such "partnerships" — unless they are both exclusive and discriminatory: Others should not be precluded from offering similar services. (You know: That ol' monopoly thing-ie.) But they (almost everyone in the game…) has gone far towards doing just that.
Why? you might ask. Because stuff costs money, one way or another.
It's not a new concept!

Your idea of free speech seems to demand that the New York Times and Playboy both publish my words. That Barnes & Noble and Amazon give my books prime placing. That ABC, CBS and NBC offer me time to respond to any opinion I disagree with… (We tried that for a while: It was most inappropriately called the "Fairness Doctrine".) In short, you don't want a marketplace of ideas; you want a fairy-tale world where competition is forbidden…
Only government can provide that, Sang. And what necessarily comes with such power is — precisely the evils you say you fear!

—————————————————————————————
I think you should revisit the D.C. Ciruit's decision… It made a lot of sense, for the real world. (Not so much, for the paranoids among us, however: You can't have everything!

)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #254 – 2014-11-21, 04:36:34

[glow=blue,2,300]"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary,
in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many,
and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective,
may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." [/glow]

Today, we have witnessed Congress & the Constitution made virtually irrelevant in short order,
by a man who would be King.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #255 – 2014-11-21, 06:12:35

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #256 – 2014-11-21, 06:34:11

No, Smiley… Nor does what Madison wrote in No. 47 apply.

We have a president who would do what he wants. We have a congress that would avoid responsibility. And, bizarrely. we also have a president who would avoid responsibility… He'll not likely follow John Quincy's example, eh?

I assume you mean Obama's "sort-a amnesty". We've seen an act of desperation (…or compassion, depending on your view of sovereignty). But previous acts by the current administration are more egregious — and congress did nothing.
Don't think that the Supreme Court will interpose itself in what is, after all, a fight between the political branches. That's not their job. (And I -too- wouldn't want it to be.) Perhaps come January things will look different!
There's a reason, why the current immigration laws seem in-adequate: They have been haphazardly enforced, if at all.
(A side-note: I think most Hispanics emigrating to the U.S. —Cubans excepted, but not necessarily— want to re-create their failed societies here! The fellow sitting atop the crow's nest doesn't fear the sinking of the ship so much…!

Seriously, I think their agreeableness with corruption means they're generations away from becoming "Americans". That phrase used to mean something: Becoming Americans. Since at least one party representing half of the electorate agrees, what are we to do? Obviously, no one yet knows.)

Are we a rich enough nation, that we can take in all comers? I don't think so. If everyone who wanted to came to the U.S. -excepting, of course, Howie- we'd tip into our oceans! Eventually, we'd all drown.
(A democratic congress-critter asked a military general officer if our presence on Guam posed that problem…

He replied: "Ah — we haven't considered that possibility, sir.") But —

What has all this to do with the perennial attempts to proscribe and limit or repeal the !st Amendment right to free speech?

Of course, before you can proscribe the speech of your "opponents" you need to elect your cohorts… Call it campaign finance reform, if you like; it's always been an incumbent protection scheme.
I'd say the ball's in your court… But an ace is what it is!
Your serve…

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #257 – 2014-11-22, 00:46:03

I think we're gonna have to see if Congress and SCOTUS will combine to reign in Obama's tendency to rule by executive order. When one man gets it into his head that he, and he alone can make law-- we have a problem.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #258 – 2014-11-22, 02:34:59

Now for a little perspective on executive orders.

It takes 30 seconds to find out that Obama is not ruling by executive order. But everytime he does issue one, the GOP wants to pretend that he's "king" or a dictator, despite the fact that their boys have a tendency to issue more than Democrats and Obama issues fewer than any president since Grover Cleveland.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #259 – 2014-11-22, 03:48:11

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-11-21, 18:34:59

It takes 30 seconds to find out that Obama is not ruling by executive order.

If you don't know what executive orders are, you can believe that...

Had you meant the accurate "He's illegally abrogating or re-writing statutes" I'd agree. Calling such "executive orders" is more than a stretch!

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #260 – 2014-11-25, 12:06:32

You could just as easy put a Republican President in that King like cartoon so doesn't make a damn difference which party. Your first office has too many powers.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #261 – 2014-11-25, 13:00:26

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-11-22, 02:34:59

It takes 30 seconds to find out that Obama is not ruling by executive order. But everytime he does issue one, the GOP wants to pretend that he's "king" or a dictator, despite the fact that their boys have a tendency to issue more than Democrats and Obama issues fewer than any president since Grover Cleveland.

Yeah, but none of the other guys did it while being black, so they don't count

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #262 – 2014-11-25, 14:43:33

Quote from: Macallan on 2014-11-25, 13:00:26

Yeah, but none of the other guys did it while being black, so they don't count

True enough. For whatever reason they GOP has lost it's collective mind about the president, but see below for another likely explanation.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-11-25, 12:06:32

You could just as easy put a Republican President in that King like cartoon so doesn't make a damn difference which party.

It makes a difference for the sake of perspective, owing the insanity the GOP's insanity over this president. The reason for this particular executive order is simple. The Senate passed immigration reform, the House sat on the legislation for over 500 days and lacked the bollocks to vote "yes" or "no." So Obama stepped in. This congress is useless. What are the taxpayers paying them for? To hide behind the capital building and drink beer all day, probably Coors Light at that? Maybe they drink Hurricane, which explains their collective lack of cognitive ability, insanity, and amnesia of anything that happened prior to 2008 (including what their own party did.) Bad beer will do it everytime.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #263 – 2014-11-25, 21:46:24

Nobody issued fewer executive orders than William Henry Harrison. Of course, the fact that he died 30 days after his inauguration may have had something to do with that. (He died of flu, which he caught while giving his inauguration speech in a downpour.)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #264 – 2014-11-26, 03:34:43

That's nice. It's not even the sheer number of executive orders, but the rate that they're issued to compensate for the two years Obama has left in office. Scroll back up to the chart that shows the rate per day. Obama is not issuing an unusual amount of executive orders by an stretch of the imagination. In fact, it's astounding people still believe claims like that in age when such information is so readily available is astounding. Maybe when loss of net neutrality is complete, a GOP leaning ISP can throttle bandwidth to sites that supply such objective information (which is what that fight is about, Oakdale - not if Comcast or some other ISP makes a special deal with Netflix :p )

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #265 – 2014-11-26, 07:35:37

Of course, from your point of view, what the executive orders involved and what their legality might be — well, that's beside the point!
Only the political import and impact matter, to you… (Am I wrong? Please explain, if so.) You like "pretty" charts and prefer not to deal with actual data; you're ill-ness requires spin-doctors — a constant, persistent and perpetual rehab.
But you will not recover. You're hooked, and you want to go as far as you can without having to suffer withdrawal symptoms! (You think you're a big tuna being caught by Hemingway… What a great short story your incoherent striving might make…) When you hit rock-bottom, you'll likely crash and burn.
(I hope not.)
It's your political allies who've abused the political processes, regulatory agencies and the rule of law. Of course, you care nothing about that: You just want what you want!
And you don't care — what it costs others.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #266 – 2014-11-27, 04:11:27

Sanguinemoon, you do have a very brave and sensible point there about how useless Washington DC is and I would add that increasingly many are realising this. You just have to note the deflating percentage of votes cast at the recent national elections to show the people are fed up with their representatives and what they do not do.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #267 – 2014-11-27, 16:44:10

Yup, disgust is with Washington is mounting in this age when paying a senator or representative is "free speech" but the obvious potential for censoring the major conduit of real free speech is just fine and reduced to making sound like it's only about an ISP making a deal with Netflix. Even if it starts out that way, I guarantee in a few years that will change. All the so-called Liberals will be able to do is shake their heads and say "we told you so" and the GOPers will have the idiocy to try to blame the Democrats and the government when some of their controversial sites are suddenly slow - despite the fact the controversial leftist sites will be throttled as well. The outcome might be positive in the sense of screwballs to the Left and Right's blogs taking forever to load and therefore reduce readership of them and thus reducing political polarization somewhat (playing the devil's advocate a little here.) But it will still be censorship and and affront to everything this country is supposed to stand for.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #268 – 2014-11-27, 22:10:06

Spot on and the real people are being sorely let down considering their loyalty and decency has been played with.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #269 – 2014-11-28, 05:14:04

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on 2014-11-27, 08:44:10

the obvious potential for censoring [of a] major conduit of real free speech

…Obviously requires government regulation! (You know: Lest evil people do evil things…)

Next thing you know, an honest citizen won't be able to buy beer on Sunday… That's real suppression; no doubt about it! Let's have the Constitution amended to prevent that — quick, before it's too late!
——————————————————
@Sang & RJ: How -exactly- do you guys determine what is "real"? (As in "real people" and "real free speech"…) Some kind of Turing Test, I presume…

Would you or your posts pass, I wonder?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #270 – 2014-12-09, 10:53:03

This is *slightly* off-topic, but I do believe I've found the perfect Christmas gift for Oakdale and Sanguinemoon. Problem: It's not for sale, if you want one you have to build it yourself-- and I haven't found the list of parts for the thing yet. The basic device is a machine that turns itself off every time you turn it on---- that's all it does. Two of these things are set up, one painted red and the other blue to represent our two major parties here, a stick is placed on the switches so turning off the one turns on the other and vice-versa, then you let the machine "political parties" go at it. These two machines are almost as useful and produce about as much as actual government, and are certainly making about as much sense as political debate. Watch-- and have a bit of fun.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5kLizZHUo[/video]

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #271 – 2014-12-09, 19:11:18

not sure if Sang and Oak have different Perspective of Perception

there Are Conflicts of interest .

or this is just my assumption .

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #272 – 2014-12-09, 19:55:22

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-12-09, 10:53:03

This is *slightly* off-topic, but I do believe I've found the perfect Christmas gift for Oakdale and Sanguinemoon. Problem: It's not for sale, if you want one you have to build it yourself-- and I haven't found the list of parts for the thing yet. The basic device is a machine that turns itself off every time you turn it on---- that's all it does. Two of these things are set up, one painted red and the other blue to represent our two major parties here, a stick is placed on the switches so turning off the one turns on the other and vice-versa, then you let the machine "political parties" go at it. These two machines are almost as useful and produce about as much as actual government, and are certainly making about as much sense as political debate. Watch-- and have a bit of fun.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5kLizZHUo[/video]

No truer words.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #273 – 2014-12-13, 02:09:38

Brilliant mjsmsprt40 and a lot cheaper than the machine on the 'Hill.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #274 – 2014-12-24, 08:34:36

Quote from: jax on 2014-10-01, 01:36:04

North Korea scored the lowest with 1.08, remaining at the bottom in 167th place, the same as in 2010 and 2011.

Speaking of North Korea, what do all of you think about the ongoing kerfuffle about the movie The Interview?