I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff in Ukraine and how peaceful protestors should be allowed freedom to protest. Eh? Peaceful protesters can someone find them.Kind of funny when one remembers how the anti-Wall Street folk were treated. Anyway he along with the EEC are sticking their noses into a situation they should keep well out of. Time after time we have been media brained into a one sided report and interviews. Ukraine had an election and produced a President and there he stays until the next one. He has in fact bent over backwards and too much as it happens for all the good it did him. Doesn't Obama and the EEC leaders have sponges for brains? There are TWO SIDES BUT SOMEHOW THAT IS IGNORED. When the first report came out about deaths there was deliberately no mention that almost half were policemen. Molotov cocktails, firing bricks and anything that hands can lay on at the officers. One policeman was actually beaten to a death pulp my the mob . And mob is what they are. They yak about Ukraine then attack and burn government buildings so how does that help any future governemnt. Neither can an elected man be expected to give up by terror gangs on the street.
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs. Now talk about sanctions? Can we remind everyone that one half of the country does not want to be in the EEC. And anyway what financial advantage is there in it? No-one has said that. There are two sides and if the terror gangs on Kiev streets are not careful there will be 2 Ukraines. Fair reporting is well overdue instead of the one-sided lynch mob mentality in DC and Brussels.
I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff in Ukraine ...
When it comes to the Ukraine, watching Obama on TV is futile.
As any other state the USA has its own interests regardless of the president in power, be it Bush, Obama or whoever.
Now as the only superpower left, the USA has more abilities than ever to push those interests by diplomatic maneuver or as a last resort by force.
These aren't breaking news and the world has to deal with it.
So far, the main problem in the Ukraine is not Obama but Yanukowych himself.
So not only did Yanukovich everything wrong in the past, he still does everything wrong now. I see him as the number one culprit for the current situation and I am afraid at what else he might completely FUBAR before he is finally kicked out of power.
Dealing with an urban armed insurrection: back to basics (http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.de/2014/02/dealing-with-urban-armed-insurrection.html)
What about the people's right for a revolution? I second that right.
Peaceful protests do not always work...
It may not be the case in a particular situation - nevertheless it should be considered.
What about the people's right for a revolution? I second that right.
You probably don't mean cultural revolutions. Do you? ::)
Please enumerate the states whose constitutions are stating people's right for a revolution. ???
BTW, how about people's right for a civil war? :o
You're ridiculous, as most people are - to me.
People's rights are not written. Not always - or not often, at least.
You seem to live in an artificial environment, not comprehending the general frame of reference. Which is: people are born not by governments, or laws, or any other established institutions, but by people.
People exist with or without such institutions -- the institutions do not.
Everything institutional is only present in this wider frame of human beings (this latter one is not at all ultimate/terminal).
You're ridiculous, as most people are - to me.
Welcome to Josh's little world :)
Everybody's world is the world of their perception. It is somehow tricky to try to learn what the other 'worlds' are, let alone that the question of "the true reality" is debatable - at very least...
Judging by the level of violence by the opposition the destruction of government buildings and so on the Ukraine mobs want to remove a democratically elected president?? That simply leaves the door open for those opposed to these gangs to do the same and where are we? A while back the so-called orange revolution put in someone that the present government supporters didn't want so the bias on Ukraine is prolific. Every time a news item comes on it is a loaded report.
Whatever faults the President has he has given in time after time and what has it produced? The simple answrr is more violence. The "opposition" seem to think that getting into the EEC will solve their economics but the EEC has not indicated a pennt towards any entry and the situation may be worse. Now the President has left Kiev to go to the east of the country to have a discussion. People there are now talking about defending their towns from the "opposition" if it tries its hand there. Why the US the EEC think that they have a right to stick their nebs in beats me. Who do they think elected the President and government. At each attempt for a break the fanatical and emotional terror mob in thesuare just go daft and worse. They started the shooting incidents and amongst the opposition are fantical nationalists.
The end game is moving towards a possible civil war and the eventual answer may well be two Ukraines. Indeed the EEC will not help Ukraine and it is time we got more balanced reports on the media with people from BOTH sides.
Speaking of answrrs and pentts, the standoff is not about economics, but about politics -- in the sense of being not under Russia.
...and the eventual answer may well be two Ukraines.
And there've always been two Ukraines - the west one and the east one. The Russian empire's history had made it for that.
Speaking about the opposition, there's news come just recently that it appeared to be "two oppositions" - the one who made a treaty with Yanuk, and the other - who don't want any treaties but that Yanuk just goes away straight now.
It may well go beyond your idea of the 2 presently inside the one State. The antics of the opposition make that even more likely and there has been far more intereference from the West than further east. Nor does the situation get away from the actual bias that we are being hit by. Indeed the impression is being given that the militants somehow are the only people and that those from areas that support the President are invisible. Wrecking, killing especially policeman who essentially for the most part were not gun using says much about those that are desperate to be in the EEC. For my view the so-called opposition are not very mature too emotional without reason and viloent because they couldn't win the last election. Those not part of the oposition have been virtually ignored as they haven't been destroying things and that the West ignores this is ridiculous.
And in more basic terms all those supposed nationalists who will subjugate their sovereignty for EEC membership they could maybe find out what finance they are liable to get. Nothing has been promised has it? As for Russia apart from the loan (and that is all it is) they have not come out with the hypocrisy of DC or Brussels. Now as I intimated people in east Ukraine and parts of the south are making it obvious they will not tolerate any invasion by the "opposition" and it's diabolical violence.
What the east of the country should do now the President is there is declare separation as they are in a slightly better situation then let the west into the EEC and then it will see that they have been conned by the politicians from elsewhere who simply go to interfering in the Ukraine to get some of the usual not very discrete asides at Russia. Let DC and Brussels face their own financial headaches and keep their noses out. A new East Ukraine has more to lose than the stupidity of the west part of the nation.
What about the people's right for a revolution? I second that right.
You probably don't mean cultural revolutions. Do you? ::)
Please enumerate the states whose constitutions are stating people's right for a revolution. ???
BTW, how about people's right for a civil war? :o
Oh, gee, Krake---- OK, it's not in our Constitution. It sure is in the Declaration of Independence though, here in the States. Our Declaration gives us the right to replace our government if the government no longer serves the people. It's stated right there.
About the Ukrainian mess: I confess to not knowing enough to make a good judgement, beyond that it appears the president has left town and the protesters may be running the place.
About the Ukrainian mess: I confess to not knowing enough to make a good judgement, beyond that it appears the president has left town and the protesters may be running the place.
You've joined the crowd. None of us here really knows what's going on down deep but for Krake and Katsung. Insights into the world are what keep me coming back.
I plan to open a thread on the emergence of China as a global power and its impact on Obama's presidency. That way I'll find out what the international media, assorted think tanks and Ivy League scholars can't explain.
I've been hanging around D&D for over 10 years, and now DnD, because I've enjoyed the variety of
opinions and observations that members offer, but not because of the expertise that they bring to the table. Where else could I find a Katsung, an rjhowie, a quirky chap from north of Chicago, an ex-ESA engineer? ;)
Our Declaration gives us the right to replace our government if the government no longer serves the people. It's stated right there.
It makes the case for America's independence, but isn't law. Besides the civil war, there have been other rebellions (as early as 1787, just four years after America won independence). Those were squashed, making the government's stance on that issue clear. There may be a moral right, but not a legal one.
Indeed the impression is being given that the militants somehow are the only people and that those from areas that support the President are invisible.
What meaning are you having in mind by "support"?
Take Russia. Anti-Putin protesters gathered on the streets voluntarily, had numbers. While Putin's crew was claiming their support was greater, they gathered "the supporters" (most of whom appeared to not be such) applying certain leverages...
There may be a moral right, but not a legal one.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.picgifs.com%2Fgraphics%2Fr%2Frussia%2Fgraphics-russia-962745.gif&hash=94f5c2841cf1e2a65398914774b89a12" rel="cached" data-hash="94f5c2841cf1e2a65398914774b89a12" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.picgifs.com/graphics/r/russia/graphics-russia-962745.gif)
None of us here really knows what's going on down deep but for Krake and Katsung.
Thanks, very kind of you sir. :)
I plan to open a thread on the emergence of China as a global power and its impact on Obama's presidency.
You could open a thread about the USA as a global power and its impact on the world. :)
I'm sure you know more about the USA than me or Katsung and at any rate more than about the Ukraine.
It might not necessarily be the case. For example, myself am not exactly interested in wassups in Russia, and I get to know something sometimes with a heck of a delay. I know more about world affairs, troubles in the UK, and I also know when the Webb space telescope is scheduled to launch.
Please enumerate the states whose constitutions are stating people's right for a revolution. ???
BTW, how about people's right for a civil war? :o
Oh, gee, Krake---- OK, it's not in our Constitution.
I was pretty sure it isn't.
It sure is in the Declaration of Independence though, here in the States. Our Declaration gives us the right to replace our government if the government no longer serves the people. It's stated right there.
Your "Declaration of Independence"?
Are you kidding me? ::)
Have you been at the National Museum of American History lately? :)
Just asking because that's the right place and only meaning for that paper. ;)
Hey, stop tripling, for a second.
We don't talk about legal bodies, do we. Not everything is under the rule of law -- for example, how to poop, how to wipe, etc.
I mean what? There are things - and there are laws -- not everything in the Universe - or in the human existence - is covered by bureaucratic paragraphs: there was life before legislation - and will be after it; human beings lived on Earth before the First Session Of Parliament - and they have chances to survive long after The Last One...
You're ridiculous, as most people are - to me.(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/finger007bi7.gif)
People's rights are not written. Not always - or not often, at least.
You seem to live in an artificial environment, not comprehending the general frame of reference. Which is: people are born not by governments, or laws, or any other established institutions, but by people.
On the rest of your post, I'm in agreement. Tell me about universal rights after the next mega-asteroid strike. Tell me about the joy of a loving God.
On interviews from western Ukrainers it is the thing about jobs in the EEC and in the end more immigrants for elsewhere. In the east of the country there is much in the way of industry the excellent black earth and farming matters. The new acting President wants good relations into Europe then with Russia whilst at the same time withdrawing representation in Moscow? Somehow the morality here in the West is that it is okay for us to interfere in a nation but not someone else. Oh dear how ludicrous. Now places in other parts of the Ukraine have came out with sticks and things in case the wonderful opposition has the temerity to come into their towns and cities.
Going into the EEC the way it is will be a nightmare and what effect will it have where all that commercial side is in east Ukraine? The sad fact is that the idiots in the square are uncontrolable and some of the groups are the same ones who supported the local Nazis in WW2. As for that female fiormer Prime Minister recently realised the media goes on as if she is Joan of blooming Arc. Yet when she was in power she was intolerant, bitchy and got the country into an economic mess. But the orange revolution was the thing and when it is Western leaning you can expect it to be wonderful of course. No doubt the folk in th east and parts of the south want the country to stay as one but if they are just pushed aside or dealth with willy-nilly to put up with anything maybe they could have a few thousand people in a town square and force a revolution too. Considering the amount of trade between Ukraine and Russia especially in the East why wasn't Russia more deeper in the picture along with the EEC and America.
With new elections in May following the gradual take over by a motley crew things will not stop there and if it means eventually a break-up then so be it.We can blame the retrogrades in Kiev and the interfering governments of the Western World. Supporting the killers in Kiev is anew morality? Groan.
Yanukovich has been announced "wanted". Charges: murder.
BBC Something
And the warrant is from a crowd of fanatics including a minister from an extreme nationalist bent so what does that tell you JoshL. Theh look at the potential candidates for President. The ex-boxer and that arrogant woman who had a bad reputation as Prime Minister years ago. With the burning of party offices by the wonderful "opposition" we can just see what the elections will be like. Anyway the warrant is a load of baloney and were they going to include the street killers of all those policemen/ No bets on that one.
And if this new regime which is a motley crowd of oddities wins the election what happens if folk in the east/south take up violence will the US and Europe come to their aid? No chance. Seems the people in the east have been out on the streets and makint it plain that the Kiev mobs try anything in their part of the country there will be big trouble. Ukraine's temporary President leads the banning of Russian as second language but wants a good relationship with the russian Federation?? So many Russian speakers in the east should stick together and if need be split as they will be more comfortably off than the banana heads in the west. Easterners want nothing to do with what has riculously happened in Kiev and the goings on inside the parliament are no better. For anyone of thoughtful mind it is painfully obvious that there are 2 completely different vies inside Ukraine what it should be. If Russia (one country) makes a routine comment it is interfering in sovereignty yet the US and a group of European countries can do what they like? Gorbochov was right in his interview.
The Ukrainian "scotland" has already separated from the "mainland", so relax: loyalists in Ulster is ok, while similarly feeling guys in the Republic do not look so ok already.
BBC 2's said Russia said Yanuk "resurfaced" in Russia.
So he resurfaced in Russia? His life was threatened by some of the extremists nuts who now form the Kiev government. Neither am I going to get distracted by that daft comment about an Ulster comparison. The ex-Prsident of Ukraine was democratically elected and certified by international people and the system rubbed out by a coup of street protestors many of who are fanatical fascist inclined including in the new "government." Now the acting President is taking a stance about the Crimea against the "legimate" government! I can hardly belive his brass neck.
Crimea was part of Russia when Josh's Red pals ran the then dictatorship and transferred the peninsular into Soviet Ukraine. I have said that if kiev worls on street people being allowed to take over the country then they have started a precedent and vwallah! - Crimea! The Western media and true to form comes out with gun carriers taking over the regional parliament down there and now 2 airports. Does that sound familiar to anyone? Kiev mark 2 BUT with less violence and deaths to report. The place is a Russian enclave and considering the self appointed lot in Kiev quite right to say they do not want to be part of something that they are totally and locally against.
Western leaders like Obama, Kerry and Cameron come out with this completely laughable stuff about Russia not interfering in Ukraine! You have to wonder about the mentality and sheer gall of such rubbish. It is okay for their pals in Kiev to bludgeon and shoot their way into power but woe behide anyone not in their pocket doing so. Politicians from the West went into Ukraine and guffed about support and for non-violence yet fully aware that the opposition well included a sizeable extreme nationalist lot were beating and killing.
If the West and the EEC continue to be behind this motley crowd of street fighters who think they will run Ukraine then Europe has a problem. Many follow the tradition that supported the SS in WW2 and unashamed and now are in government. Now it seems there may well be a referendum down at the Crimea on seceding and traditional home connections. Good luck to them a the referendum does take place as that is more democratic that what the West is supporting up north as the alternative is a cauldron of fire.
Here's what modern life can give us: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html
And talk about sheer audacity with Obama warning about infringing sovereignty and interfering in another country?! Another example of somewhere that preaches rights and values but certainly does not exercise such themselves. Ukraine has been taken over by a minority and it does include some very nasty pro-Nazi people. On Friday night I watched an inteview with people from one of the "Nationalist" parties who stated quite frankly the word National Socialism.Another lot had badges quoting "88" representing the 8th letter of the alphabet twice for Heil Hitler. Some are in this artificially created government. In fact the Minister of Defence is a frightening nationalist and another has said no-one will take his gun, nife, etc away. How wonderful our Western media is in reporting. The Kiev Square was a hell place of violence and death but the mob did a coup and the West supports it. Now when others come out (and no killing) in Crimea and take a stand they are hinted as being terrible!
As for Ukraine and the EEC those Ukrainians who are desperate to be in that motley crowd of head banging wasters are bashing a daft cause. Just look at the state of Europe in the EEC. There has been no clearance of it's annual accountancy by auditors for years. Ukraine thinks going into that bunch that will solve their problems - no it won't and they will then become like the Greeks, Portuguese and others on the tour round looking for a job or on the welfare system. It doesn't matter who you watch, Sky, ITV, BBC they are all so one-sided it is damnable. I do hope the peninsular does do a referendum and as it was party independent anyway it will be a short move getting out the fiasco as they have been ignored by the weird bunch of new Kiev government who haven't a clue on running Christmas Club never mind a country.
Hard-core heroe of the maidan?
[video]http://youtu.be/xY3Bpn5OIC4[/video]
He has left the maidan for now, there's much work to do in the Ukraine
[video]http://youtu.be/_7FH2kgjtfU[/video]
Speaking with a state prosecutor
[video]http://youtu.be/q8JC-ZjqFb4[/video]
He also has the blessing of some clergyman like Rev. Mikhaylo Arsenych.
[video]http://youtu.be/C5EXdbzIDEk[/video]
Ukraine has been taken over by a minority...
You don't think they're a majority, do you?
Like in the last video?
...who stated quite frankly the word National Socialism.
The word or some
National Socialism?
The thing is - let alone SOCIALISM (which is evil by itself) - the wordS themselves may just be considered hacked. Yeah, by NSDAP.
See, Britain does already have socualists in power, the USA has a socialist president. They just don't call themselves socialists.
Next, THE WORD "national", as an adjective to - what? ok, "socialism", "healthcare"? The word is ok. If you, for example, oppose the socialism in Britain going nationally - it doesn't make somebody a Nazy.
What I say -- THE WORDS are ok (except what I stated about socialism, of course).
Here's what modern life can give us: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html
Forget all that, Frenzie. Our resident expert on everything, rj, will explain everything.
And Josh has worked himself into a Russian frenzie.
What's going on here?
And talk about sheer audacity with Obama warning about infringing sovereignty and interfering in another country?!
One could also say:
"And talk about sheer audacity with Putin warning about infringing sovereignty and interfering in another country?"
Hypocrisy rules!
cartoon in the Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/)
The outcome? The Crimea, a strategic "necessity" for Russia, separates from the Ukraine and becomes a Russian Vassal State.
Nah -- "Overseen Territory".
And talk about sheer audacity with Obama warning about infringing sovereignty and interfering in another country?!
One could also say:
"And talk about sheer audacity with Putin warning about infringing sovereignty and interfering in another country?"
Hypocrisy rules!
cartoon in the Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/opinion/)
The outcome? The Crimea, a strategic "necessity" for Russia separates from the Ukraine and becomes a Russian Vassal State.
Or....
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS0oOesZVOXTpg8SJDQkOqZ2hwwRQ7bH4eR5nBG7y8ciPI9fNOxCQ)
Just my personal, uninformed opinion-- take it for what it's worth:
I hear that Obama is threatening Putin, telling the Russian leader that he'd better not interfere with Ukraine problems. I have a suspicion that it's not so easy, and that in fact Russia has plenty of good cause to stick its oar into the Crimean situation.
You have a former state of the Soviet Union that broke away several years back, now in the midst of an internal revolution. This state borders Russia, so I would hazard a guess that it matters very much in the Kremlin which way things go in Ukraine. Russia doesn't need a potentially hostile state on its borders, partly because it already has enough hostiles on its borders. Besides-- Obama, fair is fair. We send our ships, planes and men all over the world trying to make sure that foreign governments are friendly rather than hostile towards us -- or else then we want to warn Russia about interfering with a potentially hostile state on its border. Somehow, I'm not in a mood to blame the Kremlin a whole lot if they choose NOT to listen to Washington.
Well jimbro you live in a nation where hypocrisy is a global capital word inspiration. Your leadership is hand in glove with israel which has ignored the UN and the world time after time. You (and well you know I mean country so don't hive off on that stuff a usually do). Israel has long invaded sovereignty for it's own ends and has it's military and existence funded by America the great leader of the Free World (groan). Time after time DC has disrupted country after country and found excuses for war. Usually followed up by the corporate masters following for money making. Hundreds of military bases everywhere and contradicts it's own Founding Fathers on rights, freedom and much else.
As for Ukraine and minorities as referred to earlier. The mobsters in the Kiev square who took over the nation were a minority and replaced a voted in government so because it suits the West at it's sniping on Russia that makes it okay. However in the East of Ukraine there have been a whole series of protests from people who object to then cabal that has taken over in Kiev. Can I say mjsmsprt40 there is much in what you say but as a passing explanation - just to clarify for you can I say that Crimea was part of Russia in the USSR days and long ago in Kruschov's time (?) he gave it to Ukraine So it wasn't taken off Russia so to speak. The majority there are Russian and from the start of the Ukranian link have always had their own provincial government.
Now Crimea has stated it will be holding a Referendum this month on it's position and may I also say that in the last 2 weeks over 140,000 Crimeans have applied for Russian passports. Up until now they had to have Ukrainian ones to get access to things lie pensions, etc. So Crimea IS Russian and I do hope they vote for a walk away rather than be under the clowns in Kiev. This may spread across the east as well in due course after they see what happens in Crimea and in the circumstances why not? Those in Kiev and the west of the country are hell bent on being in Europe and the EEC because the country is just on the edge of default and bankruptcy not only to Russai which dished out but other places. So in the end either a Ukraine and a completely separate Crimea or perhaps an East and West Ukraine as the best solutions bceause neither is going to accept the other.
For the West to execrise the sheer gall towards Russia bearing in mind what we have done over theworld to suit ourselves is frankly absurd. As for the unpopular man in the White House he apart from being hopeless is incapable of doing anything. What a change to find the corporate global State that thinks it has a right to rule the world having a nation it cannot control. Not before time.
East Ukraine and Crimea should go their way and the West it's as the best solution. Come back in 10 years and the West half of the country will still be a banana republic run by a motley crew.
As far as I could understand the Scottish English...
O'k, "the majority" is [almost] always passive. They "disappear" every moment when an action has to be undertaken, or a non-trivial decision made.
Those "majorities" sorta exist - physically (as a propagating mass), and statistically. But they don't exist regarding any decisions other than ALLOWED AND REQUIRED by the powers that be. I.e. polls, 'elections', that sort. THEN they do exist - SOMEHOW!!!...
Besides-- Obama, fair is fair. We send our ships, planes and men all over the world trying to make sure that foreign governments are friendly rather than hostile towards us -- or else then we want to warn Russia about interfering with a potentially hostile state on its border. Somehow, I'm not in a mood to blame the Kremlin a whole lot if they choose NOT to listen to Washington.
There are things that Obama can do, but none of them will have the wanted effect, ie., to make Russia pull back. See...
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/8-things-obama-must-do-about-ukraine-104128.html#.UxNIs_ldV5c (http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/03/8-things-obama-must-do-about-ukraine-104128.html#.UxNIs_ldV5c)
This business is in Europe's backyard, and if they can't/won't do anything, what can the US do? Nothing. Personally, Americans have grown weary of our meddling abroad. We need to butt out.
Now, if Germany were to retool, perhaps.... ;D
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FSvcrPYl.jpg&hash=793dd518edc8cac40512aff7d85e56ba" rel="cached" data-hash="793dd518edc8cac40512aff7d85e56ba" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/SvcrPYl.jpg)
This business is in Europe's backyard, and if they can't/won't do anything, what can the US do? Nothing. Personally, Americans have grown weary of our meddling abroad. We need to butt out.
Now, if Germany were to retool, perhaps.... ;D
No, thanks.
We ruled Crimea for a very short time before. That was enough. Let the US do it. They have the necessary experiece (http://www.bearcanada.com/fae/usa/usmilinterventions.html) and the adequate 'tools' for doing so.
Besides, based on its high moral grounds the USA enjoys worldwide respect, trust and credibility ... :)
Last but not least Crimea and the Ukraine are also in Russia's backyard. Doesn't seem to make any difference for the USA anyway...
No, thanks.
We ruled Crimea for a very short time before. That was enough. Let the US do it. They have the necessary experiece (http://www.bearcanada.com/fae/usa/usmilinterventions.html) and the adequate 'tools' for doing so.
Besides, based on its high moral grounds the USA enjoys worldwide respect, trust and credibility ... :)
Last but not least Crimea and the Ukraine are also in Russia's backyard. Doesn't seem to make any difference for the USA anyway...
Which USA would that be? Not mine, I assure you, but there many USAs.
Putinville will have it's way. I'll drink my caffeine free diet Coke, post on DnD and watch the final round of The Honda Classic golf tournament at 1 PM and the NASCAR race at 2:30 PM. I'm getting ready to prepare some Ramen Noodles in chicken stock that I made yesterday. My little USA is working just fine.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/bsflagm.gif) ;D
Not mine, I assure you, but there many USAs.
I know (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.en.kolobok.us%2Fsmiles%2Fartists%2Fjust_cuz%2FJC_cheers.gif&hash=fa60f7cb2c98ed1aa1e9034a104d28fc" rel="cached" data-hash="fa60f7cb2c98ed1aa1e9034a104d28fc" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.en.kolobok.us/smiles/artists/just_cuz/JC_cheers.gif)
I also know that it isn't the USA of some US residents posting here on DnD neither.
But for the world there is only one USA no matter how each of its residents might feel or think. This applies for any other country too, unfortunately. :(
I also know that it isn't the USA of some US residents posting here on DnD neither.
But for the world there is only one USA no matter how each of its residents might feel or think. This applies for any other country too, unfortunately. :(
Which world?
Which world?
People living beyond US (official) borders.
It seems that Russia's borders now encompass the Crimea.
Putin has now control of the Crimea but appears to have lost control of himself.
It seems that Russia's borders now encompass the Crimea.
Putin has now control of the Crimea but appears to have lost control of himself.
But he's in total control of his image.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autostraddle.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F12%2Fputin-shirtless1.jpg&hash=c1921e2c674f86f57c9f572bbcd826ca" rel="cached" data-hash="c1921e2c674f86f57c9f572bbcd826ca" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.autostraddle.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/putin-shirtless1.jpg)
Nice tits, Vladimir.
Crimea became another Ossetia. I don't remember what Nato was saying at that time, but it was the same thing: Everybody talking, only Russia actually doing stuff.
A bit different.
Besides, did you know there was a guy, Khruschov, who in times of the USSR "redivided" the state - on which occasion the Crimea went to Ukraine. Which was not a big deal while there was an empire - but not later, '80s+. By many Russians the peninsula was thought to have been a RUSSIAN stronghold for long, aka "forever"...
A bit different.
Besides, did you know there was a guy, Khruschov, who in times of the USSR "redivided" the state - on which occasion the Crimea went to Ukraine. Which was not a big deal while there was an empire - but not later, '80s+. By many Russians the peninsula was thought to have been a RUSSIAN stronghold for long, aka "forever"...
Isn't there something in the
Old Testament about Khruschov and Adam and Eve? And this, too.
"Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for Putin to enter the kingdom of God."
Such a good book!
A bit different.
Besides, did you know there was a guy, Khruschov, who in times of the USSR "redivided" the state - on which occasion the Crimea went to Ukraine. Which was not a big deal while there was an empire - but not later, '80s+. By many Russians the peninsula was thought to have been a RUSSIAN stronghold for long, aka "forever"...
I know full well that the borders of the "republics" within Soviet Union have been re-drawn, sometimes considerably, a number of times. Also, everybody knows that Russians have very difficult to distinguish between Russia and Soviet Union. Both are "nasha rodnaya strana". Even more, Russians have a hard time breaking apart from their great imperial past. Schizo situation for them, dangerous for themselves and for everyone close by.
But he's in total control of his image.
Not really. He gets legislation passed against gays, but posts photos seemingly designed to appeal to them ;)
Oh yeah, GOP has been busy finding ways to blame the whole situation on Obama instead of coming up with any ideas of their own, as usual.
...everybody knows that Russians have very difficult to distinguish between Russia and Soviet Union.
Do they?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FlA5ANCA.png&hash=94dd04c77fca59d12b4388566c51412e" rel="cached" data-hash="94dd04c77fca59d12b4388566c51412e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/lA5ANCA.png)
Does anybody think that this Ukraine business has any wider impact, or is it just a case of Russia dealing with it's relatively local issues? Does it matter what the EU "thinks"?
dealing with it's
Tut-tut.
::)
Does anybody think that this Ukraine business has any wider impact, or is it just a case of Russia dealing with it's relatively local issues? Does it matter what the EU "thinks"?
If this doesn't break into WWIII, it defies historical knowledge. All elements are in place: The economic interests (the pipes in Caucasus, across Ukraine, and the Baltic Sea), the ethnic conflicts (everywhere from current Russian borders to the borders of former Soviet Union), even the recent agreements between Russia and Germany and between Russia and the Baltic countries spell out a number of the same details as they did last time.
At least Sweden is getting ready for war:
Must increase the defence budget (http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=83&artikel=5799008)
It's natural that Russia is coming back (http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=109&artikel=5798701)
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs.
I agree. There isn't much that anybody could do even if they wanted to.
We have a problem examining the innards of such events. OWS, which you mentioned, is beyond me and you. OWS was even more complicated than what
appears to be going on in Ukraine and Crimea. All we're doing is guessing.
Does anybody think that this Ukraine business has any wider impact, or is it just a case of Russia dealing with it's relatively local issues? Does it matter what the EU "thinks"?
If this doesn't break into WWIII, it defies historical knowledge.
I hope I remember to mention this to you in six months.
I will remind it to you myself as soon as the internet is back up after the war.
Funny guy. :)
Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia have Russian speaking populations. What if Russia steps into those states to "protect" them from the evil West.
There could be a trade war, Russian oil versus Mac Burgers. But I can't see the West getting involved militarily in a wide ranging war. Depends on how the Ukrainians react and that will depend on Putin's wish, or ability, to cool things.
Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia have Russian speaking populations. What if Russia steps into those states to "protect" them from the evil West.
And some Russian speaking living on Brighton Beach. And in London: several Russians own there some property:whistle:
If this doesn't break into WWIII, it defies historical knowledge.
History never repeats dear Ersi :)
Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia have Russian speaking populations. What if Russia steps into those states to "protect" them from the evil West.
Any Russians in Grand Rapids?
Any Russians in Grand Rapids?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/avs/avatar_29_1391706811.png)
Look like?
What you forget is that the Crimea has been definitively kind of Russian for an awful long time. Note the stuff about the Baltic States which are in a different league but should tell you (in case the carefullt dished out media doesn't) that the mayor of the Estonian capital has came out in support of Russia.
A Colonel in the Ukranian Army made great play of the fact they had called up Reservists but omitted to say that less than 2% had responded. Units of the Ukranian Army special forces had refused to be involved in Crimea and the naval units in Crimea are in process of changing sides against Kiev. A Rear-Admiral has been filmed taking an oath of allegiance to the prime minister and goverment in Crimea. With moral in the Ukraine Armed Forces dissolving and defections they can make noises but that is all.
The West went to great lengths to support what was a coup by a selection of the population - probably around 30% if lucky. We go on about democracy yet support a coup against a democratically elected government/ The fact that it includes very extreme fascists someohow is not important. One representative of one of those parties has stated on television they are National Socialist "Just like Hitler but not as bad." That was obviously a quick thought of a reply. Who is prominent in the Defence Minisyry, etc? Fanatical nationalist extremists hence the sabre rattling.
Immediately the hoodlum sponsored government took over in Kiev they deleted Russian as the second official laguage but yesterday came out with stuff they were not picking on anyone. In the Crimea over 90% Russian is used in official and other areas so what does that tell people there? Over a hundred thousand seeking solace in Russia and hardly surprising. It is obvious that divisions are deep yet we in the West go hell bent on supporting a coup and illegal goverment as if it included all Ukraine. It doesn't an will not. The country needs reappraisal and if that means East, West and if need be Crimea as separates then so be it. The West can then tramp off into the EEC and see what that brings them. They will be burdened with more debt, restrictions and austerity packages. Anyone remember Ireland, Spain, Portugal, Greece?When one listens to Obama, Kerry (was his last job in a carnival?) and Cameron you could groan. All that tripe from DC about invading a sovereign state baloney. What has America been doing for decades but the same damn thing if it does not get what it wants.
On the economic front the murmurings about economic restrictions. visas and all that stuff is silly. The Russian Federation has the world's fifth economy, Europe depends on the pipelines and so on. Cameron knows that but toes the DC line. The West has been very immoral on the so-called principle regarding Ukraine and it is because unlike other parts of the corporate world which it for a while has dominated and controlled the modern Russia is one it cannot get away with that on. So let Ukraine divide and then let the bit that is in decline and run by illegal government slide into Europe it will find that is a mistake. Crimea already officially a semi-autonomous State will vote for separation and that is one H of a more democratic than the lot in Kiev we are supporting.
What you forget...
You seem to have missed something...
A bit different.
Besides, did you know there was a guy, Khruschov, who in times of the USSR "redivided" the state - on which occasion the Crimea went to Ukraine. Which was not a big deal while there was an empire - but not later, '80s+. By many Russians the peninsula was thought to have been a RUSSIAN stronghold for long, aka "forever"...
I know full well that the borders of the "republics" within Soviet Union have been re-drawn, sometimes considerably, a number of times. Also, everybody knows that Russians have very difficult to distinguish between Russia and Soviet Union. Both are "nasha rodnaya strana". Even more, Russians have a hard time breaking apart from their great imperial past. Schizo situation for them, dangerous for themselves and for everyone close by.
::)
Don't see the Imperial past as a problem at all as we are in the 21st century and not the same thing at all. I must remind that the USand to a lesser extent the EEC in Europe are not something written in stone. One recent headline here said that Rssia was going against those two - well excuse me but ther planet is not owned by them. If you want to see a nation that is doing an Imperial modern stance look across the Atlantic. Invassons, destabilsing, back handers via the CIA and what have you. Your country has to go an awful long way to catch up with that lot. Do you have hundreds of bases across the globe? no you don't.
What was done in Kiev was illegal but what has been done is legal and more normal. There the Prime Minister WAS elected. Kiev by virtue of the way the government was taken over are the wrong ones but the West totally ignores principles when it suits them. Let it take the West of Ukraine and see what happens when it goes into the EEC and all the extra money worries the cuts and having to live frugally because of economics. The same "oppoistion" was vehement that the oligarchs had to be got rid of and what do we find? Appointments to government positions, governors, etc are billionaires and millionaires. That arrogant woman was released from jail as a hero is another wealthy one and has a whole series of wealthy homes. Principles be damned. Then more baloney from outside on the Crimea where the parliament has made decisions having been elected as their prime Minister. Somehow that is nothing but a crowd of bandits who destroy the same process in Kiev are heroes?
The news reporting is appalling. One Sky reporter from Ukraine rabbited on about the Russians saying people would be safe and he commented "believe that if you can." Another load of cobblers was the Russian Navy giving the Ukrainian navy until 5am to surrender or they were for it. We officially recognise an illegal takeover of a voted in government and that is oaky. Then the television and newspapers join the lies. Where is the neutral reporting?
The Ukraine military is in a state of flux and apart from the fact they would have a hard job against Russian speical forces they are dubious. A whole section of the air force has already changed sides so to have navy people and it wasn't Russia that caused this it was the motley crowd of bandits and Nazis who took Kiev over. So that mob was supported by the arrogant West led by Obama who thinks the world's fiefdom is their right. Wrong side of history (according to Obama). Now if it wasn't so serious you could almost laugh at yet another hypocrisy. Ukraine has lost Crimea and the Referendum result in no doubt and maybe part of the East will in time go and all because of doubtful people in Kiev. It is their fault and not Russia's
If Russia had as many military bases across the Earth a history over the last while of wars and wars, intrigue, de-stabilising and destroying governments then one could yak with some basis. As I pointed out the country is so deeply divided and you can blame the Kiev lot for making it a heck of a lot worse whilst thinking they will be saved by US and other handouts. They don't know what is ahead of them in reality. Two Ukraines will be way forward.
Your country...
I don't own a country.
-_-
Right, RJ. Very convincing argument there you are making that US is worse. Unfortunately I live next door to Russia, not US, so that's what I am dealing with. Sad story that empires are written in stone but everything between them is not.
If this doesn't break into WWIII, it defies historical knowledge.
History never repeats dear Ersi :)
Remember the previous attack Russia made - Ossetia? Also around Olympics, Beijing 2008. In fact both the war and the olympic games opened at the same time. This does not qualify as a copy-paste repetition, but enough elements are in place - for me. Maybe not enough for you.
Remember the previous attack Russia made - Ossetia? Also around Olympics, Beijing 2008. In fact both the war and the olympic games opened at the same time. This does not qualify as a copy-paste repetition, but enough elements are in place - for me. Maybe not enough for you.
Even the West had to drop these claims. Too many evidences.
Did Saakashvili Lie? (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/did-saakashvili-lie-the-west-begins-to-doubt-georgian-leader-a-578273.html)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F68407000%2Fjpg%2F_68407010_toastwithhilaryafp.jpg&hash=9e7bd32ffa113f3e98a3bbd4d7477685" rel="cached" data-hash="9e7bd32ffa113f3e98a3bbd4d7477685" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/68407000/jpg/_68407010_toastwithhilaryafp.jpg)
Wasn't Saakashvili (http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2013/november/26/us-dead-enders-still-dream-of-color-revolutions.aspx) the Rose Revolution man backed by the USA and promised even NATO membership?
This is the way Washington's darling dealt with demonstrations in his country
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fpics.top.rbc.ru%2Ftop_pics%2Funiora%2F05%2F1194470851_0205.400x300.jpeg&hash=425b6b1609922a4e94273ceabc80a7d5" rel="cached" data-hash="425b6b1609922a4e94273ceabc80a7d5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://pics.top.rbc.ru/top_pics/uniora/05/1194470851_0205.400x300.jpeg)
source (http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/showthread.php/5586-Georgian-dictator-Saakashvili-harsh-break-the-demonstration)
But you're right Ersi there are enough elements (http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2014/0130/Saakashvili-Ukraine-is-first-geopolitical-revolution-of-the-21st-century-video) in place which remind us of 2008.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.csmonitor.com%2Fvar%2Fezflow_site%2Fstorage%2Fimages%2Fmedia%2Fcontent%2F2014%2F0130-omisha%2F17954871-1-eng-US%2F0130-omisha_full_380.jpg&hash=5e4d40a5f5f3de140b274268772db878" rel="cached" data-hash="5e4d40a5f5f3de140b274268772db878" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/content/2014/0130-omisha/17954871-1-eng-US/0130-omisha_full_380.jpg)
Mikheil Saakashvili, and various members of his government, have long been accused of crimes which no person, and no politician, would be allowed to commit under the laws of any EU member country.
These include extrajudicial murder, embezzlement, misuse of administrative resources, misuse of public funds, false imprisonment of opponents, seizure of private property, electoral fraud, torture, political terrorism and war crimes. These allegations have long been supported by evidence which meets the standard required in every EU member country, much of which is publicly available.
source (http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/11/08/276209/)
Krake, there are two distinct things. One thing is a govt being a bastard within its own borders. The other thing is a govt playing the police outside its borders. I know full well how economically corrupt politically immoral criminally insane my own current govt is. And I know full well that the legitimacy of the current Ukrainian clique is suspicious from any angle you look at it. In either case, outsiders should not interfere.
The topic here is #2. Outsiders are interfering. Ukraine is not being allowed to let its own blood and calm down in the manner and time of its own choice. From the point of view of the people of Ukraine, the best that could happen is to keep the matter internal. It should not be anyone else's business, except Cuban doctors sewing up pieces of flesh and Swedish philanthropists sending warm blankets.
What I mean is that Ukrainian riots, and the coup where the army didn't participate, should not be any outsider's military business. There is absolutely no question who stepped over the line here.
All govts are bastards, but being a bastard within their own borders is kinda legitimate. Being a bastard outside its borders is definitely illegitimate, no matter which govt does it, US, Russia, whoever.
This does not qualify as a copy-paste repetition, but enough elements are in place - for me. Maybe not enough for you.
No no, my comment was a light approach about the big historical theories, not intended as specific for this situation.
You are right that no outside intervention is justifiable but as I hear it happens that Crimea is an autonomous province of Ukraine. The question is if such autonomy grants its habitants the right to ask for a Russian intervention.
As I know, there's an agreement until 2045 for Russian army permanence and Crimea has deep and close cultural attachments wit Russia. Probably also economic.
So, what do people from Crimea wants? That's the first part of the equation I need to know.
As I know, there's an agreement until 2045 for Russian army permanence and Crimea has deep and close cultural attachments wit Russia. Probably also economic.
So, what do people from Crimea wants? That's the first part of the equation I need to know.
The agreement concerns Sevastopol, Russian military base in Crimea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevastopol#Russian_naval_base_and_ownership_dispute). The agreement does not concern the status of Crimea. Autonomous or not, the international border runs so that Crimea is Ukraine, not Russia.
What do the people want? As it says in the news, the parliament and govt HQ of Crimea have been overrun. There's nobody now who could with any air of legitimacy claim to be representing the people there.
The legal concept that is the standard for evaluation for me is jurisdiction. Russia crossed the line of jurisdiction.
Autonomous or not [...]
The legal concept that is the standard for evaluation for me is jurisdiction. Russia crossed the line of jurisdiction.
What autonomy serves for? exactly for delimiting jurisdiction.
It's complex, but taking in account the state of revolution Ukraine is passing by I'm afraid that the law of the stronger will win.
Putin is doing his move, we'll see how the others will answer...
Autonomous or not [...]
The legal concept that is the standard for evaluation for me is jurisdiction. Russia crossed the line of jurisdiction.
What autonomy serves for? exactly for delimiting jurisdiction.
It's complex, but taking in account the state of revolution Ukraine is passing by I'm afraid that the law of the stronger will win.
Putin is doing his move, we'll see how the others will answer...
Law of stronger breaks jurisdiction. It's not Ukraine interfering with Crimea's affairs there, is it? It's not Ukrainians deposing the administrative and legal institutions in Crimea.
It's right that I have little clue about the concept of autonomy actually, but it's absolutely sure that Russians (and perhaps also Ukrainians) have equally little. You see, many member republics in Soviet Union had their own supposedly autonomous entities while each member republic of Soviet Union was supposedly "sovereign". You can imagine what meaning those words had. Russia calls itself a federation right now and is full of autonomous member republics and other autonomous entities. In imperial times Russia never was a federation, it only had provinces with some regional laws.
So I am sure that these distinctions are merely nominal for Russians. There's no content or context to legal concepts for them. Might makes right and that's it.
Might makes right and that's it.
No truer words have been spoken.
I always liked a good selfie, but this one is a gem.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bh4PYsHIcAAIIQU.jpg:large)
And then there's this gem of soldiers around a campfire.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/140303/ukrainian-soldiers-wait-war-crimean-base-video (http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/europe/140303/ukrainian-soldiers-wait-war-crimean-base-video)
A power an autonomous territory never will have nowhere is the power to invite foreign forces, and generally it does not have Westphalian sovereignty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_sovereignty) (it is not a nation-state). How autonomous the territory will be, within these constraints, varies from symbolic to actual self-rule.
International law is rather nebulous, but by treaty it seems that sovereignty is overridden if the state is committing genocide on its own populace. That is not happening in Ukraine.
Another alternative is an outright separation, the conditions of which are not that clear either, but seems to require either a war or a mutual agreement with the sovereign state it is a part of.
International law is rather nebulous, but by treaty it seems that sovereignty is overridden if the state is committing genocide on its own populace.
By "by treaty" you meant UN treaty?
Another alternative is an outright separation, the conditions of which are not that clear either, but seems to require either a war or a mutual agreement with the sovereign state it is a part of.
Usually war first and agreement later, if there's someone alive to sign it. Some separations are amazingly peaceful though. Soviet Union imploded so suddenly and completely that very little blood was shed. This does not happen often.
Another alternative is an outright separation, the conditions of which are not that clear either, but seems to require either a war or a mutual agreement with the sovereign state it is a part of.
The reason it's called The Eighty Years' War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years'_War) is because Spain was a bit reticent regarding such an agreement, no matter the de facto situation. In turn, it took The Netherlands a decade or two before it officially acknowledged the independence of Belgium.
Here's a patriotic song, reasonably well-known among those in the know. It's a folk song that was popular in the 16th century.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3DeBtmY3i4[/video]
http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/duys001oude02_01/duys001oude02_01_0184.php
Een Liedeken gemaect by M. Arent Dircxz. Vos
in zijn leven Pastoor inde Lier (1566)
Slaet op den trommele van dirredomdeine,
slaet op den trommele van dirredomdoes,
slaet op den trommele van dirredomdeine,
Vive le Geus is nu de loes.
De Spaensche pocken, licht als sneeuw vlocken,
de Spaensche pocken, loos ende boos,
de Spaensche pocken, onder sPaus rocken,
de Spaensche pocken groeyen altoos.
De Spaensche Inquisitie, voor Godt malitie,
de Spaensche Inquisitie, als draecx bloet fel,
de Spaensche Inquisitie ghevoelt punitie,
de Spaensche Inquisitie ontvalt haer spel.
Vive le Geus! wilt christelick leven,
Vive le Geus! houdt fraye moet;
Vive le Geus! Godt behoed u voor sneven,
Vive le Geus! edel christen bloet.
De Paus en Papisten, Godts handt doet beven,
de Paus en Papisten, zijn teynden haer raet;
de Paus en Papisten, wreet boven schreven,
ghy Paus en Papisten soect nu oflaet.
Oflaet in tijts noch, Godts woort te krencken,
oflaet in tijts noch, u godtloos spel;
oflaet in tijts, och wilt u bedencken
oflaet in tijts, en valt Godt niet rebel.
Tswaert is getrocken, certeyn Godts wraec naect,
tswaert is ghetrocken, daer Joannes aff schrijft;
tswaert is ghetrocken, dat Apocalipsis maect naect,
tswaert is ghetrocken, ghy wert nu ontlijft.
Tonschuldich bloet, dat ghy hebt verghoten,
tonschuldich bloet roept over u wraeck;
tonschuldich bloet te storten heeft u niet verdrooten,
tonschuldich bloet, dat dronct ghy met den Draeck.
Granvelle.
U vleyschen arm, daer ghy op betroude,
u vleyschen arm beswijckt u nou;
u vleyschen arm, die u huys boude,
u vleyschen arm wijckt van u schou.
Prince.
Princen der princelijcker Geusen Prince,
princelick met u gheest haer doch regeert;
princelick drijvense u eer, aldus bemintse,
princelick wert u rijck alsdan vermeert.
What I am reminded of everytime Mr. Howie bloviates about, "The EEC": http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/East_Empire_Company_Warehouse (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/East_Empire_Company_Warehouse)
Here's a patriotic song, reasonably well-known among those in the know. It's a folk song that was popular in the 16th century.
:knight: Thanks for sharing that pulse pounding gem! :jester:
For news updates on the Ukraine situation I've found the BBC news site good.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/)
What I am reminded of everytime Mr. Howie bloviates about, "The EEC": http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/East_Empire_Company_Warehouse (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/East_Empire_Company_Warehouse)
Howie's the name, bloviating's the game.
So I am sure that these distinctions are merely nominal for Russians. There's no content or context to legal concepts for them. Might makes right and that's it.
Not surprisingly... Crimea's location (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_Sea_map.png) lefts no doubts about who's the boss there...
Naturally Putin can always evoke "preventive self defense", someone has given the example to him...
So I am sure that these distinctions are merely nominal for Russians. There's no content or context to legal concepts for them. Might makes right and that's it.
Not surprisingly... Crimea's location (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Black_Sea_map.png) lefts no doubts about who's the boss there...
Naturally Putin can always evoke "preventive self defense", someone has given the example to him...
This is a job for Super Portugal!
Why do we want to get involved in this countries political civil war is beyond me, hell we're involved in our own, & until we resolve ours we shouldn't even be considering thinking about theirs....this goes for Europe & Russia too....back off until you get your acts together & settle your own internal upheavals.....
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7H1P2kLrqQ[/VIDEO]
For news updates on the Ukraine situation I've found the BBC news site good.
For those watching BBC this might be old news:
Kiev snipers hired by Maidan leaders - leaked EU's Ashton phone tape
Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked call
source (http://rt.com/news/ashton-maidan-snipers-estonia-946/)
The Northern half of Ukraine is pro Europe (they believe that they have a place there... we''l see that...), the Southern half is pro Russia and Crimea, the southerner peninsula - is simply Russia.
Europe has no military forces (and even they have they would never use it) and the US only appears against the Saddam Husseins of this world.
I would bet my money that Putin has already won. He studied the adversary weaknesses and acted.
"Mother Russia" is back to the game and what a comeback.
In any case, I doubt that the US has much of a show there unless we did get European backing. If Europe decides to let what happens happen, there isn't a lot the US can do beyond posturing-- because we can't risk making enemies out of the rest of Europe.
In any case, I doubt that the US has much of a show there unless we did get European backing. If Europe decides to let what happens happen, there isn't a lot the US can do beyond posturing-- because we can't risk making enemies out of the rest of Europe.
The US has
NO business there. Let Scotland handle it.
In any case, I doubt that the US has much of a show there unless we did get European backing.
The US already got backing from Europe to 'liberate' Iraq.
If Europe decides to let what happens happen, ...
You mean this?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi44.tinypic.com%2F2ez1m3k.jpg&hash=74274479d0a71554c2d776be8eef10a7" rel="cached" data-hash="74274479d0a71554c2d776be8eef10a7" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i44.tinypic.com/2ez1m3k.jpg)
For better understanding (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/01/can-ukraine-control-its-far-right-ultranationalists.html)
1. Why did the opposition oust Yanukovich after he conceded to their demands?
2. Why is the coup-appointed govt replacing oligarchs linked to Yanukovich with... oligarchs?
3. Why did the post-coup Parliament strip Russian language of its regional status?
4. Why did Kiev attack the Constitutional court?
5. Why would the West support the coup in Ukraine?
You must be very naive if you think that the USA gives a damn about Ukrainians. However the USA can't afford a military intervention this time. Nevertheless it's a good opportunity to create tensions between Russia and Western Europe, to curbe down economic ties and last but not least to create tensions among European countries. Who do you think will profit? The Ukrainians? The EU?
How about destabilizing a little Eastern Europe and keep Europeans busy for a while?
BTW, "Fuck the EU"!
It's all about geostrategic interests. You probably already heard about Zbigniew Brzezinski (http://www.sikharchives.com/?p=7187) and his obsession.
Regarding the latter part of your post, @krake, I disagree.
I have observed our military-industrial complex for years now, and if you think we "cannot afford another intervention", you are sadly mistaken.
Mind you, let me state I am against intervention, but the MIC is chomping at the bit this very moment. "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, INTO UKRAINE!" they say. GO SCREW YOURSELF MIC! says I.
...to curbe down...
"Curb".
@krake
Who's the guy?
One of our spy cameras has spotted Krake in a huff after losing a discussion:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%2F__cb20120129140831%2Fclash-of-the-titans%2Fimages%2F9%2F90%2FThumb_Kraken.jpg&hash=2c1e872eb0ec6c0de3b4a7b1992c0fdf" rel="cached" data-hash="2c1e872eb0ec6c0de3b4a7b1992c0fdf" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120129140831/clash-of-the-titans/images/9/90/Thumb_Kraken.jpg)
Handling an old-style mobile keyboard:
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You must be very naive if you think that the USA gives a damn about Ukrainians. However the USA can't afford a military intervention this time.
I hate to keep repeating myself, but which USA? The Republican USA? The Democrat USA?
If you mean the personal USA, the Jim-usa, well, I care about people being shot, dismembered or sauteed. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/bigsnarl.gif)
Regarding the latter part of your post, @krake, I disagree.
I have observed our military-industrial complex for years now, and if you think we "cannot afford another intervention", you are sadly mistaken.
Mind you, let me state I am against intervention, but the MIC is chomping at the bit this very moment. "OUT OF AFGHANISTAN, INTO UKRAINE!" they say. GO SCREW YOURSELF MIC! says I.
So young, so negative, so just-out-of-college. If it's good for business, it's good for Colonel Rebel.
I have to wonder about the intelligence of Kerry because he looks like an amateur in a professional show. He comes out with complete piffle and knows little. Both he and Obama would be better sticking plaster oj their lips. Both wre completely over the top.
Here we had the US President talking about invading sovereignty and acting wrongly yet what has been the history of the United States of America since the end of WW2?? De-stabilising, invasion, ignoring sovereignty, creating war on stretched motives and still at it as we debate with drones. At least one television announcer described it as hypocrisy and one can just image the stuff dished out on tv over there and not just from Fox. Kerry stood there in front of the media like a wet sponge going on about how the former Ukrainian government had gunned down democratic protestors in the square. Now the revealed phone dicsussion between baroness Easton and the Estonian Foreign Minister betrays something else! Over 20 riot policemen were killed and around 130 injured and wounded by gunshots. Begs the question as to the rubbish talked by Kerry as being baloney. Now it appears much of the sniping was from Hotel Ukraine at the square which also happened to be the HQ of the wonderfully peaceful protestors. The police were not gun armed and the shooters were knocking off both the police and rival opposition groups.
Kerry also talked stupidly about how bad the square;s "peaceful protestors were treated. Eh? Throwing Molotov cocktails at police and setting them on fire, using catapults and anything they could find including their eventual shooters. The former President gave in to one demand after another although you tend to get that ignored. The "government" that took over from the elected one did not represent Ukraine one damn bit. It only represented essentially th west of the country and that is made obvious when immediately they banned Russian as the second official language right away even though but is premier in the east and southeast including Ukraine. So the Kiev bandits weren't thinking a joy of all-Ukraine but just their desperate attempt to be in Europe. I have seen excerpts of US TV news items including going on about a deadline for Ukrainian soldiers to lay down their arms by 5am or be eradicated. It was never ordered and didn't occur. Neither has there been a violent invasion. It has essentially been peaceful.
The West led by the US has been hell-bent on supporting a partisan bunch who destroyed the elected system and democracy even though an election had been offered. The West doesn't care a dman on the fact that much of Ukraine did not want the revolution by a motley crowd of rejects. Some of the Nationalist and Nazi people were released from jail and now "serve" in the restricted regime in Kiev. Maybe some clever clown like jimbro and his new sidekick fro, south of the Mason-Dixon coul explain this odd way of loking at things. That is in accepting a restricted government that DID NOT include the east or south of the nation they just did what they wanted. The media is also unbelievable in it's bias. This has included commented on mobs of protestors in the east and south which has no comparison to the brutal things who caused mayhem in Kiev and killed.
President Putin has been conned by the West before in places like Libya and elsewhere and isn't going to let it happen again. He, I think, would prefer to see a more federalised Ukraine to acount for the proportion of his people who live there and predominate in many places. The mobstsre in Kiev did try to get down to Crimea and take over an offical building but got chased so does not indicate a willingness by the Crimea to even be in a federal system. Keep this in mind that in Crimea the ELECTED parliament has voted unanimously that it won'ts to be returned to Russia. The Referendum will fully endorse that. Compare that to kiev's mobsters. And lastly for now.
The West has been mouthing away in agreement with the Kiev "government" on getting rid of the Ogliarchs. Yet the new Prime Minister is a rich one and they have appointed billionaires as 2 regional Governors which contradicts what that lots rank-and-file people say in the street. If part of Ukraine ends up in the EEC it will suffer even further hardship because Europe will lay down restrictions and toughness on money so that people will be even worse off. Due to the Kiev lot and the West supporying bandits Federalism may vanish as an idea. America thinks it has some God-given right to be masters everywhere and practice hypocrisy on a vast scale with the rest of the West just sheepish=like following. Face facts would-be funny men here as you will believe anything people like Obama, Kerry (what a disaster) and Cameron etc yak out. Obama should retire early to Chicago (sorry mjsmsprt40). Leading a nation that has interfered, caused so many wars and destroyed countries now being left ineffective. Boy that has been a long time coming and more please. Thank you President Putin!
...sticking plaster oj their lips. Both wre completely over the top.
Are you corrupting English or improving it?
"Oj" and "wre" look like some Scandinavian dialect, huh?
Maybe some clever clown like jimbro and his new sidekick fro, south of the Mason-Dixon coul explain this odd way of loking at things.
:)
Oj, bro! Wre that, will ya..
Oj, bro! Wre that, will ya..
Absolutely, my Putinesque friend!
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fthesamnet.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F09%2Fputin_medvedev_relationship.jpg&hash=15ff7dd8646dfe132a8ef6880830e27f" rel="cached" data-hash="15ff7dd8646dfe132a8ef6880830e27f" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://thesamnet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/putin_medvedev_relationship.jpg)
This is a job for Super Portugal!
Go back to your pension that you take from the people that your country explores. Use it while you can because it will end soon.
Meanwhile:
Russian President Vladimir Putin nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/vladimir-putin-nominated-nobel-peace-prize-article-1.1711989)
Is it April 1st?
Firstly no great in depth stuff from jimbro who will usually come away with not knowing much about a subject so switch to the would-be satirical bent. As for the puppet picture that is a hoot coming from a man who lives in a nation that is run by big corporates and brains the ordinary into thinking their voting makes a difference. And may i remind you string that Obama got the Peace Prize for what actually. He did nothing so you should have remembered that in your mockery. Anyway from those using their non-jimbro grey cellss.
The "Prime Minister" of Ukraine has condemned the parliament in the Crimea for it's vote for going out and for having a Referendum! He really has a damn nerve saying a democratic system is illegal. His would-be attempts at being reasonable to Russia are based on a more practical basis. They owe the Russians a lot of money and if Russia does anything with gas supplies it is going to be even worse for them in Kiev and elsewhere.It is him that fits the word for goodness sake. Kerry is stupid enough but is that eejit Prime Minister worse. He also came out with the stuff about the Crimea always being there so a neat part picture of history. worse? He was never elected nor his "government." However the Crimean PM and parliament WAS. So a bunch in Kiev put in by a mob is somehow legitimate and a parliament and vote system is not?? Note too that the rich people put into power in Kiev that I mentioned and Oligarchs include that bespectacled Prime Minister.
So the Crimea operating a democratic system is illegal but the illegal lot in Kiev are legitimate?? And what about the gunmen that Kerry went on about as being sent by the ousted President. One of the groups in the opposition went out of it's way to kill opponents and 26 policemen (remember the riot police had no guns. A silence here on that one too. The sheer gall of Obama and his dopey Kerry lecturing us all on respecting democracy, sovereignty and such when all that America has done since WW2 has created wars, ignored governments, invaded, left a shambles. And the US is still ignoring sovereignty and drone killing (usually as a break from the US killing families with their wonderful marines or fighter pilots having a wingding doing the same. Talk about sheer gall and hypocrisy. .What sort of morality is that? The media are over the top. The mayhem in Kiev was okay but when Russia moved to the Crimea we got bullyboy tripe and mayhem warnings yet in practice it was the alternative. I noticed in someone's newspaper a picture of a Russian warship face on and the article said it was heading for their reporter and he ducked waiting for a shell! Completely stupid.
The coup lot in Kiev did not take the East nor South of Ukraine into it's plans at all with the net result that those areas feel no solidarity with the government stealers. It scrapped Russian language so what does that tell the east and south? I did think that there might have been something in the possibility of a Federal system but that is vanishing quickly due to the double-standards of the West. And we should all know that the rump in the west if it gets into the EEC will suffer more economic hardship and be forced into austerity and crippling debts. By a vote the Crimea by the end of the month will be back where they have always wanted to be.
Meanwhile:
Russian President Vladimir Putin nominated for Nobel Peace Prize (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/vladimir-putin-nominated-nobel-peace-prize-article-1.1711989)
Is it April 1st?
These can nominate a living candidate:
- Members of national assemblies and governments of states
- Members of international courts
- University rectors; professors of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology; directors of peace research institutes and foreign policy institutes
- Persons who have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
- Board members of organizations that have been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize
- Active and former members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee; (proposals by members of the Committee to be submitted no later than at the first meeting of the Committee after February 1)
- Former advisers to the Norwegian Nobel Committee )
That is a quite numerous list, must be close to 100,000 people worldwide today that have the right to nominate somebody. Being nominated means nothing, and nominations in principle aren't public.
But at least he got a cool motorcade...
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4POZ_3zgeYo[/video]
String, Jax found a brother putinist?
But at least he got a cool motorcade...
That's the way it goes with evil dictators.
Evil dictators? You are like some fanatical Fox TV follower. He was elected may I remind and you are fond of labelling others as being stuck on themes and you have one about Russia. Unfortunately you are so riven you fail to understand your own phobia. The way your country is run does not give you much real appraisal. One would have thought you were brighter than the media you have over there and the one-sided guff. You deliberately ignore the fact that the "revolution" did not include the east or south as they had no interest in all-Ukraine just their local situation. So the government in Kiev is not legal as it was never elected and threw out an elected President. He might not be everyone's cup of tea but his election was checked by European observors and got a clearance so what don't you understand. In addition the parliament in Crimea is an elected assembly unlike what is going on in Kiev. The acting Ukraine Prime Minister is acting and smart actor at that. So they essentially only represent the west and ignored the rest of the country. Obama and Kerry are something else. They bleat about democracy whilst supporting a faction that includes Nazis who are not going to go away. While at the same time the Laurel and Hardy two condemn democratic Crimea. And as I also reminded your nation has a long history of arrogance, and destroying governments and countries.
However I will acknowledge one leading US politician and his comments on tv were straight and honest. That was Ron Paul whom I found no fault with in his public statements about US global arrogance and lies on democracy, rights and sovereignty. Right this minute the US is still disrespecting that word sovereignty. The media here right across the West has been appalling. It either contorts or outright lies. The acting Prime Minister went on about invasion and Russian tanks in Ukraine when that is untrue and even Ukrainian border guards have said that is not the case. For a bunch of people who created an illegal coup, immediately banned Russian as the second official language and didn't include the country in their take over. The violence that erupted in Kiev was theirs alone and the rest of the country did not see that as they were not to be included.
The acting Prime Minister went on about invasion and Russian tanks in Ukraine when that is untrue and even Ukrainian border guards have said that is not the case.
When politicians want to build consensus, but the facts don't warrant the need, they fabricate provocatively hoping their opposition gets aggravated enough to take the bait, & react in a way that would warrant the need for a consensus to act in
retaliation protecting the women, children, & the elderly, thus ensuring their political longevity.
I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff in Ukraine and how peaceful protestors should be allowed freedom to protest. Eh? Peaceful protesters can someone find them.Kind of funny when one remembers how the anti-Wall Street folk were treated. Anyway he along with the EEC are sticking their noses into a situation they should keep well out of. Time after time we have been media brained into a one sided report and interviews. Ukraine had an election and produced a President and there he stays until the next one. He has in fact bent over backwards and too much as it happens for all the good it did him. Doesn't Obama and the EEC leaders have sponges for brains? There are TWO SIDES BUT SOMEHOW THAT IS IGNORED. When the first report came out about deaths there was deliberately no mention that almost half were policemen. Molotov cocktails, firing bricks and anything that hands can lay on at the officers. One policeman was actually beaten to a death pulp my the mob . And mob is what they are. They yak about Ukraine then attack and burn government buildings so how does that help any future governemnt. Neither can an elected man be expected to give up by terror gangs on the street.
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs. Now talk about sanctions? Can we remind everyone that one half of the country does not want to be in the EEC. And anyway what financial advantage is there in it? No-one has said that. There are two sides and if the terror gangs on Kiev streets are not careful there will be 2 Ukraines. Fair reporting is well overdue instead of the one-sided lynch mob mentality in DC and Brussels.
I can see the historical reasoning for your position. Britain has a fine tradition of invading and annexing other countries and territories. However, it is baffling the you criticise the EU (the EEC hasn't actually existed for some time :p ) and the US for their actions when Russia used the internal affairs of the Ukraine to justify military aggression. I say not only sanctions, but eject the Russia from the Un Security Council and the G8. And post erotic photos of Putin on gay websites and magazines.
I say not only sanctions, but eject the Russia from the Un Security Council and the G8. And post erotic photos of Putin on gay websites and magazines.
Whilst not new, that's a great idea but needs some improvements.
Throw out China as well as a second step and replace the Un Security Council with NATO.
Unrelated,
do you find shirtless Putin erotic? :o
do you find shirtless Putin erotic? :o
He doesn't care what Obama or any other Western politician has to say, so we need a more creative way to personally punish Putin (say that three times fast.) So I figured that would be a great way to humiliate him internationally.
He doesn't care what Obama or any other Western politician has to say
Indeed, Russia isn't part of the COW (coallition of the willing). Indisputable, this has to be changed!
do you find shirtless Putin erotic? :o
He doesn't care what Obama or any other Western politician has to say, so we need a more creative way to personally punish Putin.
Publish one of his tit photos on the cover of
Playgirl magazine.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-Gp6A-VXXECI%2FUVBhZaDLTbI%2FAAAAAAAAAQ0%2FTl5QkfhiHzw%2Fs1600%2Fputin-horse-31.jpg&hash=d186e8bde6835f144dfc14b5c04c28be" rel="cached" data-hash="d186e8bde6835f144dfc14b5c04c28be" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Gp6A-VXXECI/UVBhZaDLTbI/AAAAAAAAAQ0/Tl5QkfhiHzw/s1600/putin-horse-31.jpg)
I swear guy needs a man-bra.
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Here you can see how the Ukrainian leaders lived: http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/2014/02/blog-post_23.html
Here you can see how the Ukrainian leaders lived: http://4ubuk.blogspot.se/2014/02/blog-post_23.html
This will probably change by now since oligarchs have been replaced by ... oligarchs :)
I wondered why Cameron had backed away from tough sanctions.
The importance of Russia to British businesses means the cost of imposing tough sanctions against Russia after its troops took control of Crimea could be higher than British Prime Minister David Cameron is willing to pay.
"Amidst all the calls for action on Ukraine, there will be voices cautioning on the need to look more at interests closer to home, and to weigh them in the balance" said Nicholas Redman, Senior Fellow, at the International Institute for Strategic Studies think-tank.
Also important is the fact that resident Russian oligarchs have massive investments in the UK.
Money trumps pretty much everything.
Sanguinemoon may I remind that referring to Gt Britain you are going back into far history. Which nation in modern times has done more invasion, disruption of governments and countries? Easy answer hence the outright modern arrogance from politicians sniping at Putin. The US didn't car a damn about anyone else with their regular incursions. What I would like to know is why Obama and Kerry ignored that recorded conversation between the Estonian Foreign Minister and the EEC top woman. With a pause for clarification how much coverage did that get in the US media?
The hype continues with the Ukraine interim Prime Minister getting all arrogant over Crimea being theirs and always will be mince. A neat dance on history. Why is it okay to sook in with a crowd that took over Ukraine by force against a legimate government and ignored the constitution they bleat about? Likewise the Crimea Government was still intact and made it's vote democratically and now the Referendum. Considering the Kiev rebels ignored the constitution and took over illegally and the Crimea is being legal the West is pursuing a farce. So it is okay to have a stolen government in Kiev that made no effort to include the rest of the country. Banned Russian as the major language in the east and south even amongst non-ethnic Russians as all spot on? At the same time the legitimate government of Crimea is treated as if they are the bad guys.
Now the extreme nationalists and Nazis are in the Kiev government including one Nazi released from jail for violence. The leading neo-Nazi lot are now publicly recruiting for their private army. It makews you wonder where the morality is in the West with what they are supporting in Kiev. On the matter of sanctions there is another set of baloney. Not just here in Britain but in the US as well. For the US to consider the direction they are going in with their increasing debt is just unreall and the same daftness here too. Germany knows too well that if Russia in turn cuts off the pipes they are out the window economically. Ukraine already owes Russia a great sum for the gas it gets and if cut off they are finished. It is high time all of us here in the West got beyond the stupid media hype that is showing itself in this thread too. Invasion tripe, media hype and so on. And before I forget the reference to Oligarchs. I had already raised that one here as it happens. Somehow it is okay for the rebel government okay to appoint them including provinces with a large Russian population and the excuses made for that exercise? The acting Prime Minister is from the same cumfy background and the reasons we are being told for appointing oligarchs is tripe in itself. Where the real principles are supporting an illegal government are beyond sense and dishing out money to a crowd of bandits and Nazis is unbelievable.
Ukraine in it's present form is finished and you can blame the Kiev bandits and Nazis.
So, around and around we go. Do we take the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government? Stay tuned, it's not over yet.
Do you know politics who are not criminals?:)
Mr. Howie in this thread:
(https://0-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1388/18/1388183889488.gif)
So, around and around we go. Do we take the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government? Stay tuned, it's not over yet.
It's more at stake than "the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government".
And you're right it's by far not over.
We'll keep tuned here in Europe to watch how far the USA will manage to destabilize Eastern Europe, to spoil relationship between Europe and Russia and to sow dissension among European countries. A nice tribute for American exceptionalism and hegemony.
And no I'm not speaking about Jimbro's USA, probably neither about yours but the USA with military basis all over the world meddling in the affairs of almost every country on this planet.
So, around and around we go. Do we take the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government? Stay tuned, it's not over yet.
It's more at stake than "the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government".
And you're right it's by far not over.
We'll keep tuned here in Europe to watch how far the USA will manage to destabilize Eastern Europe, to spoil relationship between Europe and Russia and to sow dissension among European countries. A nice tribute for American exceptionalism and hegemony.
And no I'm not speaking about Jimbro's USA, probably neither about yours but the USA with military basis all over the world meddling in the affairs of almost every country of this planet.
Also a nice tribute to the lack of backbone by Germany, the undisputed leader of said EU/Europe. We've basically given NATO orders to listen to what Merkel has to say, so while it's entirely appropriate to heap blame on our foreign policy (as you will recall, I am the biggest critic of our despicable rampant Interventionism), you lot can take some blame as well, along with the UK.
All of that is in your neck of the woods, after all, and they have been wanting to join your EU for some time now....
But of course, feel free to project upon us, as we are used to it, and deservingly so. :beer:
....All of that is in your neck of the woods, after all, and they have been wanting to join your EU for some time now....
But of course, feel free to project upon us, as we are used to it, and deservingly so.
I wouldn't go that far. England, ala Churchill, had been begging the USA on bended knee to get involved in Europe for years, before he finally succeeded in getting Roosevelt's promise for troop deployment around the mid-end of 1941 (in secret/private talks before signing the Atlantic Charter if I recall) - start of 1942 (after Germany declared war on the USA).
Looks like Déjà vu all over again --- with similar players, but different motives.
When will we ever learn to ignore the whimpering Brits -- let them stew in their own swill for once?
So, around and around we go. Do we take the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government? Stay tuned, it's not over yet.
It's more at stake than "the word of the questionable government about the outright criminal government concerning the renegade government".
And you're right it's by far not over.
We'll keep tuned here in Europe to watch how far the USA will manage to destabilize Eastern Europe, to spoil relationship between Europe and Russia and to sow dissension among European countries. A nice tribute for American exceptionalism and hegemony.
And no I'm not speaking about Jimbro's USA, probably neither about yours but the USA with military basis all over the world meddling in the affairs of almost every country on this planet.
I haven't seen a president like the one we have before, inclined to meddle and upset existing governments and set up revolutionary ones. GWB did some meddling alright, but at least he had an idea of setting up governments friendly to the US. Obama just seems to like revolution for its own sake. Frankly, he's more than a little frightening that way.
I have no idea how you think "Obama just seems to like revolution for its own sake." Oh maybe the "Arab Spring?" The only reason conservatives opposed that was an attempt to pin something else on Obama that he had nothing to do with. If a Republican had been president, they would have all for it. Blind speculation? Hardly, and history shows us this. Through this century, American president supported foreign revolutions if they thought the resulting new regime would be pro-American. Never mind that the resulting Right Wing/Military governments were often worse than the socialist/communist regimes they replaced. One would think a knowledge of history to be prerequisite to calling oneself conservative, but it seems that in America the opposite is true.
You really really pushing the boat out there mjsmsprt40. You have never seen a President so willing to interfere in other countries?? Your country has been doing it since World War 2. Country after country that was destabilised, attacked, invaded (leaving a mess the norm) so come on now boy, waken up. So it isn't just Obama and the one before him it is a whole damn list.
And as usual that mental midget stuff from Smileyfaze going back to WW2 and us. We stood alone against Hitler and if you had not came in and say we had gone under you would have been next on Hitler's list. Your lot made a tidy sum out of the 2nd World War and it took us decades to clear the debt we occured during that war. The US as usual leads the pack baying at Russia and Putin and true to form jimbro comes in with his almost continual sniping at Putin.
Let's get this straight. The Ukrainian President was hardly squeaky clean but he and his government was democratically elected - note that favourite word of you ex-colonists re democracy. It had observers from the West - Europe. The democratically elected government was overthrown by a select group of Ukrainians from the west of the country. They in their street fighting created the mayhem even although the democratic government kept bending for them. So theeast and south of the country wasn't part of the putsch. This temporary government has 6 Nazis in ministerial office. Russian as I pointed out was immediately taken out a an official language and removed from government websites. What does that say to the mainly ethnic Russians/ They were not part of the coup and far from happy and no small wonder.
Russia at not time has demanded Crimea back although the political leaders in the West and the lying media have contorted things into that as a fact of life. We get the rebel government saying that what Crimea is doing is illegal and against the constitution. What a damn laugh. A bunch of power seekers ignore the constitution, create mayhem and being un-elected, illegal! Crimea will vote to get out and there maybe some more movement in the east and I cannot blame them the way they are being lied about.
What America as usual is doing and the West following is immoral, deceitful, arrogant. When it comees to being illegal, dangerous wreckers of countries we just need to look across the Atlantic. It preaches democracy and doesn't practice i. Ron Paull was right in that America creates more harm and danger to itself the way it thinks it has some special right to control the world. Grow up.
We stood alone against Hitler and if you had not came in and say we had gone under you would have been next on Hitler's list. Your lot made a tidy sum out of the 2nd World War and it took us decades to clear the debt we occured during that war. The US as usual leads the pack baying at Russia and Putin and true to form jimbro comes in with his almost continual sniping at Putin.
If not for Russia, you'd be speaking German today.
In any reasonable context, Putin and his millionaire friends would be recognized for the criminals they are.
On a thickly wooded mountainside overlooking Russia's Black Sea coast, an extraordinary building has gradually taken shape. It is alleged to be a palace built for the personal use of Vladimir Putin, with massive and illegal use of state funds.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17730959 (http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17730959)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTazZ2Y_kJuVgP1RuL2wpirQkrknLHYH-zVTJNET3RZH-3PuZxm)
More than 850 Russian oligarchs and Chinese millionaires have won the right to live in Britain in the last five years under a scheme which has little benefit for British citizens, official government advisers have disclosed.
Professor Sir David Metcalf, chairman of the Home Office’s Migration Advisory Committee (MAC), said the government had effectively been “giving away” visas to some of the world’s wealthiest people.
A report by the committee revealed 433 Russian millionaires have come to this country since 2008 under an “investor” visa scheme which allows successful applicants to live in Britain in return for a minimum £1 million investment in government gilts - effectively a loan - but does not grant them a UK passport.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/)
but the USA with military basis all over the world
/ˈbeɪsɪs/ is a singular, Latinism [roughly] for "base", whose plural is "bases" - 'same' as for "basis" - and is {quite similarly to the latter's} pronounced /ˈbeɪsi:z/.
Not to forget that /s/ is strong and /z/ being weak.
but the USA with military basis all over the world
/ˈbeɪsɪs/ is a singular, Latinism [roughly] for "base", whose plural is "bases" - 'same' as for "basis" - and is {quite similarly to the latter's} pronounced /ˈbeɪsi:z/.
Not to forget that /s/ is strong and /z/ being weak.
OMG! A spelling Nazi lurks in the shadow.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fepicdemotivational.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F05%2Fdemotivational-posters-spelling-nazis.jpg&hash=926a43aa262b8b35255f6378597ef8a3" rel="cached" data-hash="926a43aa262b8b35255f6378597ef8a3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://epicdemotivational.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/demotivational-posters-spelling-nazis.jpg)
/ˈbeɪsɪs/ is a singular, Latinism [roughly] for "base", whose plural is "bases" - 'same' as for "basis" - and is {quite similarly to the latter's} pronounced /ˈbeɪsi:z/.
One /beɪs/, two /ˈbeɪsɪz/. With an /ɪ/. But indeed, one /ˈbeɪsɪs/, two /ˈbeɪsi:z/.
It's a "happy vowel". We distinguished it from both vowel 1 and vowel 2. In the phonetic context.
I seem to remember that we drew it as "i" not "ɪ", and often looking like that /i:/ but ONLY with the upper 'dot' present in that ":" extention.
You might be right:
English definition of “bases”
bases
› /ˈbeɪ.sɪz/ plural of base (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/base_1)
› /ˈbeɪ.siːz/ plural of basis (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/basis_1)
(Definition of bases from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus (http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british)© Cambridge University Press)
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/bases?q=bases
It might be that thing you cited earlier - /i/ -- might it?
My friend Axonn decided to share his perspective:
http://www.axonnsays.com/2014/03/ukraine-and-what-it-means-deep-under/
It might be that thing you cited earlier - // -- might it?
In some dialects, perhaps…
In any reasonable context, Putin and his millionaire friends would be recognized for the criminals they are.
That's a very reasonable context indeed. There are good oligarchs, those who can be instrumentalized for US interests and bad oligarchs, those who can't.
Wonder who is financing the presidential campaign in the USA?
I almost forgot, you did a donation for Obama's, so it was financed by the masses.
Furthermore every military base, every war, regime change, covert operation the USA gets involved serves the interests and the wealth of the American people. That's how real democracy should work.
BTW, wonder how the master of the free world would react if Russia would finance and back a hostile regime change at America's front-door and also would try to build some 'defence' shields in order to protect the region from the threat of Iranian nuclear attacks.
As for Putin being a criminal, he for sure has less blood on his hands than the former leader of the free world, G.W. Bush or the actual one, the master of the drones and Nobel prize laureate for peace.
--------------
Kiev government is blocking the electronic system of Crimea’s treasury freezing its accounts.
According to Crimean Deputy Prime Minister Rustam Temirgaliyev, Kiev’s recent moves will not affect state payments, including pensions, and Crimean authorities are now opening accounts in Russian banks instead of relying on the frozen ones.
Demonstrations against coup-imposed Kiev government in Southeastern Ukraine (Lugansk, Kharkov and Donetsk).
Vitaly Klitschko told BBC Ukraine that those demanding referendums in eastern Ukraine are simply “citizens of another state,” for whom the borders of the country “must be closed.”
Blackwater in the streets of Donetsk?
[video]http://youtu.be/s2uVyaKTQoU[/video]
That's a very reasonable context indeed. There are good oligarchs, those who can be instrumentalized for US interests and bad oligarchs, those who can't.
...........................
BTW, wonder how the master of the free world would react if Russia would finance and back a hostile regime change at America's front-door and also would try to build some 'defence' shields in order to protect the region from the threat of Iranian nuclear attacks.
...........................
As for Putin being a criminal, he for sure has less blood on his hands than the former leader of the free world, G.W. Bush or the actual one, the master of the drones and Nobel prize laureate for peace.
On the first, I believe that more of them live in London than in the US.
On the second, remember Cuba?
On the third, Putin is a criminal. Where do you think that mansion came from? Carefully saving his rubles?
Putin was also implicated in a criminal investigation by German authorities in the early 2000s into the St. Petersburg Real Estate Holding Company, called SPAG. The Germans charged that SPAG had been used to launder money out of, and into, St. Petersburg from a variety of sources, including the Cali cartel. Putin was a member of the SPAG advisory board and his name on the masthead attracted Western investors to St. Petersburg. Dawisha asserted that Putin provided protection for his co-conspirators when contracts were not fulfilled, and though legal actions were taken against SPAG, none of the Russian participants were indicted (see Duparc, Le Monde, May 26, 2000 and Belton, Moscow Times, May 19, 2003).
As for Putin being a criminal, he for sure has less blood on his hands than the former leader of the free world, G.W. Bush or the actual one, the master of the drones and Nobel prize laureate for peace.
Let's say that if he has, at least he have much more class doing it.
He's a KGB, so are their friends. Merkel is a Stasi, they must go well along, what gives an entire new perspective for the German intervention that has given half of Ukraine in a plate to Putin's hands...
Ah well the tripe is up to speed here I see. Putin and his Oligarch friends? Who do you think runs America but their own brand of that label. Suitably ignored is the fact that Ukraine was taken over by an illegal crowd who ignored the constitution that the nationalists and Obama/Kerry wax on. Six Nazis and ne-Nazis in the Kiev "government" and we in the West bleat about Russia suitably ignoring the Ukrainian Oligarchs involved in the Kiev cabal. Explain that one away. Explain why the putsch did not include the east and and south if the illegal takeover was so wonderful? Why did they not accept the elections assured by the democratically elected president? Explain why Russian was abolished as a State language and removed from government circles? Why has America and Europe ignored the taped conversation between the EEC leader and the Estonian Foreign Minister? The sheer gall of going on about democracy and acting constitutionally yet the dictatorship in Kiev is applauded??
The violence in Kiev was not created by the then government and people wonder why Ukraine is in danger of falling apart As for the German Prime Minister she knows only too well how much her economy depends on Russian fuel hence her more sensible approach than the neo-con hysteria the rest of the West is practicing. Now Russia is ceasing the special reduced price of gas in April which will make things worse in Ukraine apart from the fact tye already owe Russia a tidy sum.
Now NATO jumps on the bandwagon in activity in eastern Europe as a wee bit of sabre rattling. Why? Ukraine is NOT in NATO so noting to do with them any more than it has with the EEC. Again I state that due to the limited an minority status of the rebellion cracks are now appearing in cities across eastern Ukraine and it is all the fault of the idiots in Kiev. For all it's hypocrisy as "leader of the West", America studiously ignores the make up of the rebel government and it's fanatical and dangerous ministers from the extreme right. The east should join Crimea and say bye=bye and leave the west of Ukraine to languish in debt and get worse.
but the USA with military basis all over the world
/ˈbeɪsɪs/ is a singular, Latinism [roughly] for "base", whose plural is "bases" - 'same' as for "basis" - and is {quite similarly to the latter's} pronounced /ˈbeɪsi:z/.
Not to forget that /s/ is strong and /z/ being weak.
Really, you're going to play grammar nazi over that? The words are homonyms, so he most likely made a simple typo and knows the difference . You may stop being a schmuck anytime you want.
The words are homonyms, so he most likely made a simple typo and knows the difference . You may stop being a schmuck anytime you want.
Not all schmucks have control over their schmuckish tendencies. And don't forget that Josh is a Rooskie Putinite.
The words are homonyms...
They are not.
...is the fact that Ukraine was taken over by an illegal crowd who ignored the constitution...
Really?
La Bastille was taken over by a crowd that ignored the then "constitution" ("Fuck you!"/King). What?
Really?
La Bastille was taken over by a crowd that ignored the then "constitution" ("Fuck you!"/King). What?
The actual 'leadership' and the West are stressing all the time that the takeover was constitutional.
Wonder if you notice any contradiction in your comparison :)
No.
but the USA with military basis all over the world
/ˈbeɪsɪs/ is a singular, Latinism [roughly] for "base", whose plural is "bases" - 'same' as for "basis" - and is {quite similarly to the latter's} pronounced /ˈbeɪsi:z/.
Not to forget that /s/ is strong and /z/ being weak.
Really, you're going to play grammar nazi over that? The words are homonyms, so he most likely made a simple typo and knows the difference . You may stop being a schmuck anytime you want.
Might as well ask him to stop breathing :rolleyes:
Really, you're going to play grammar nazi over that?
Spelling and pronunciation aren't grammar. :P
(I'm surprised Josh didn't point that out.)
What gets me about all this is the (more than usually) blatant display of hypocrisy. Democracy is bad when the result is something our Fearless Leaders don't like.
Really, you're going to play grammar nazi over that?
Spelling and pronunciation aren't grammar. :P
(I'm surprised Josh didn't point that out.)
How about Pilkunnussija (http://www.cracked.com/article_19695_9-foreign-words-english-language-desperately-needs_p2.html)? :left:
Or flueknipper (http://www.economist.com/blogs/johnson/2012/02/punctuation)? :right:
The more generic mierenneuker (Dutch for ant fucker, i.e. nitpicker) might do too. :sherlock:
Edit: having read the second article, I realize that's exactly the same principle as flueknipper.
Edit 2: in French it's also a fly fucker.
http://www.presseurop.eu/nl/content/article/142881-vliegen-mieren-muggen
PS A less crude Dutch term is muggenzifter (mosquito sifter).
In german it's Haarspalter ( hair splitter ) or, Krümelkacker ( crumb crapper? ) :right:
( cue Josh freaking out about us being off topic :left: )
Josh may not be around, so in his behalf, stay on topic.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/beatdeadhorse.gif)
Josh may not be around, so in his behalf, stay on topic.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/beatdeadhorse.gif)
Why?
These are the most interesting and informative posts so far.
I am becoming concerned about developments. As you undoubtedly know, Crimea is campaigning to become part of Russia, breaking away from the rest of Ukraine. I have little doubt that if successful, Crimea will owe a lot of its "freedom" to the efforts of Putin and his friends. Wait until Putin tries to collect what's owed. Then that's when the trouble really begins.
Because, as we all know, Crimea never pays.
I am becoming concerned about developments. As you undoubtedly know, Crimea is campaigning to become part of Russia, breaking away from the rest of Ukraine. I have little doubt that if successful, Crimea will owe a lot of its "freedom" to the efforts of Putin and his friends. Wait until Putin tries to collect what's owed. Then that's when the trouble really begins.
Because, as we all know, Crimea never pays.
We are a generous lot, here at DnD.
We will pretend you didn't say that.
:D
Thanks to Germany, half of Ukraine is going to be Russian.
The funny part are two: that half of Ukraine always was Russian and that Americans can do nothing.
Ukraine, with its ballistic nuclear missiles, aren't exactly what American bravery uses to "fight".
I am becoming concerned about developments. As you undoubtedly know, Crimea is campaigning to become part of Russia, breaking away from the rest of Ukraine. I have little doubt that if successful, Crimea will owe a lot of its "freedom" to the efforts of Putin and his friends. Wait until Putin tries to collect what's owed. Then that's when the trouble really begins.
Because, as we all know, Crimea never pays.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.comicvine.com%2Fuploads%2Foriginal%2F11111%2F111111327%2F3599806-dwight.jpg&hash=c309a903a067d1f11416e5a8d96f8b48" rel="cached" data-hash="c309a903a067d1f11416e5a8d96f8b48" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111111327/3599806-dwight.jpg)
So now.....
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fglobal3.memecdn.com%2Fi-see-what-you-did-there_o_1137019.jpg&hash=02b628298045e15e8f59c0cce197e0a3" rel="cached" data-hash="02b628298045e15e8f59c0cce197e0a3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://global3.memecdn.com/i-see-what-you-did-there_o_1137019.jpg)
The two facedness of the USA on Ukraine and Crimea is unbelievable.
It was okay for Kosovo to break away from a constituent part of Serbia. And what about Czechoslovakia. That was okay too and South Sudan. It has all been a reidiculous media and White House mayhem creating a second Cold War attempt. Trouble is that the ex-colonies get the hump because they like to control anywhere they want in the world by economic management or war and often both. They cannot do that with the Russian Federation so tough one boys! Although Kosovo was a Serbian Province because it had eventually an Albanian majority di the US or it's poodles get bitchy? Nope it didn't so the West is very selective of it's principles. It was okay for Kosovo but not for Crimea. If it wasn't for wars Americans would never know geography.
And the hypocrisy by the White House on the Ukrainian consitution, rights and freedoms is hogwash. A minority around Kiev started this fiasco. Have we heard a word from the champion about rights and freedoms about the neo-Nazis in government? Nope. The Kiev rump which ignore their own constitution also overturned a properly elected President. He isn't an angel but he was elected. The Kiev mob as I said took Russian out as an official language and ignored the large ethnic population ion the east and southeast. The chased President had agreed to his powers being limited a change back to a previous constitution and so on but the West supports a crowd of bandits and thugs who are illegal. However compare that to the Crimea. They still have a parliament and elected Prime Minister. They have said that minorities will be respected including the Tartars. They have also said they would make the Tartar dialect a second official language whereas Kiev did the opposite on Russian.. Just shows the big difference and the hypocrisy here in the west. Many on this form are aware of this hence skirting around.
If Kiev keeps going the way it is they will be kissing goodbye to another chunk of the country and it is once again their fault.
It was okay for Kosovo to break away from a constituent part of Serbia. And what about Czechoslovakia.
Czechoslovakia is the wrong example. The secession took place in compliance of both parts.
Kosovo on the other hand is a fine example for a secession without mutual compliance.
The parliament of the Autonomic Republic of Crimea has declared its independence from Ukraine with reference to settled case laws at the United Nations International Court Of Justice. (ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW OF THE UNILATERAL DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE IN RESPECT OF KOSOVO)
You can download the document as PDF from here (http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/141/15987.pdf#view=FitH&pagemode=none&search=%22kosovo%22).
Most of you probably heard about Bank Stress Tests as a result of the global financial crisis.
The events in Ukraine are a nice Stress Test for our 'Free Western Media'. It fails the test miserably.
We can condense the result of the test in three words: bias, hypocrisy and double standards.
A minority around Kiev started...
O'k, you didn't get my explanation.
Now - if "a minority" did all this --- where hrucking was THE MAJORITY? When you don't get simple things, bro... ALL HRUCKING THINGS are made by hrucking minorities!.. Including (but not limited to) tech.progress, revolutions, and the evolution ("the majority" always dies failing to survive - while tiny minorities survive and make the species adapt).
In any actual terms, no MAJORITY ever exists (apart from voting or other stats lists) -- hardly an idea can be imagined to UNITE ACTIVELY ANY REAL MAJORITY - ACTIVELY being a NECESSARY term with the meaning that no Uncle Sam/Yanuk/Whoever came to "unite" them - AS IF. Being gathered by a shepherd does never count. Ever.
Yanuk?
O'k, you didn't get my explanation.
Now - if "a minority" did all this --- where hrucking was THE MAJORITY?
Where? At the Ukrainian presidential election, 2010 and don't tell me it was a fraud.
Furthermore it was only a matter of months up to the next elections...
Yanuk?
Yes.
Where? At the Ukrainian presidential election, 2010 and don't tell me it was a fraud.
I don't know!..
There were notions, nobody knows how justified.
Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-12, 04:49:42 (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.msg12745#msg12745)Yanuk?Yes.
Quote from: krake on 2014-03-12, 04:55:27 (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.msg12748#msg12748)Where? At the Ukrainian presidential election, 2010 and don't tell me it was a fraud.I don't know!..
There were notions, nobody knows how justified.
There were notions, nobody knows how justified.
Nor do any of the millions who surf the Internet know what nobody else surfing the Internet knows. Bravo, Josh!
(https://images.encyclopediadramatica.es/thumb/8/8a/Kirk_salute.jpg/180px-Kirk_salute.jpg)
You in the times of surfing the Galaxy?:)
There is to be a referendum in the Crimea - there are two questions, one which amounts to do you want Crimea to be part of Russia now and the second effectively do you want the Crimea to be part of Russia later.
The rational for this interpretation comes from the Moscow Times, an English Language paper in Moscow.
.
(http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/no-room-for-nyet-in-ukraines-crimea-vote-to-join-russia/496024.html}No Room for 'Nyet' in Ukraine's Crimea Vote to Join Russia[/url)
The rational for this interpretation comes from the Moscow Times, an English Language paper in Moscow.
. (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/no-room-for-nyet-in-ukraines-crimea-vote-to-join-russia/496024.html}No Room for 'Nyet' in Ukraine's Crimea Vote to Join Russia[/url)
Moscow Times is own by the Finnish publishing group Sanoma. Furthermore it has an alliance with the International Herald Tribune.
The newspaper is known for its critical positions towards the current Russian government.
Bit slow there string. The Crimea referendum has been on the go for more than the other day or two.
Let me remind you all again. The Kiev "government" in claiming that Crimea is acting illegally and backed up by the West is utterly ridiculous as a stance. The Kiev mob took over illegally and the violence by the ne-Nazis. Crimea on the other hand does have an elected government so the international hypocrisy is pathetic. America, time after time, has interfered with, disrupted countries then destroyed them when it suited. Often using the claptrap of looking after their interests. Well in a sens ethey were - commercial and corporate ones. However it cannot do it with the Russian Federation so goes bonkers and the West as usual goes along with it. Kosovo WAS a province of Serbia and the constant flow of Albanians into it for decades made a difference. They were in the majority so that was okay then wasn't it? The absurdity that the majority in Crimea cannot do what they want is ridiculous.
Whern I said that the Kievillegal set up distanced itself from the east and south east of Ukraine you all suitably ignored that and the banning of Russian as an offical laguage across the country. So much for inclusion. On the other hand the elected government in Crimea has stated it will make the Tartar laguage a second state language and you all just ignore what you don't want to hear. Russia is doing what America always claims in looking after it's interests and rightly too the way things are going in Kiev.
The propaganda knows no bounds and is Goebbells like in it's ridiculousness! The latest statements from Kiev is that there are 80,000 Russian troops in Crimea. Clatrap yet again and absurd claims of tanks and other stuff. They even include naval ships that in all probability are what was the small Ukraine navy. One exaggeration after another. Subtle ignoring of the Nazis in the Kiev corner and one standing for President. In the East growing unhappiness of what was done in Kiev without any thought of including them if they wanted and here we gt codswallop on the words "democracy", "rights" and "legimate." Now a Kiev Ogliagarch has been dumped in an eastern province by the Kiev rump much to the unhappiness of the locals. Kiev is putting up thenheat by saying it is recuriting the National Guard. All over the top stuff and pathetics in the West and here on this forum just trait along with the mince.
If Ukraine is so keen on keeping it'self together why did the West virtually encourage the rbele fanatics that fought in the Kiev streets? Why too has the aired conversation between the EEC chief and the Estonian foreign minister been ignored? Obama that fool, Kerry and Cameron have all been silence on that. The German Chancellor who was being a bit more reluctantly had obviously been leaned on regarding sanctions and stuff. However her country will suffer much in return and she knows it. Just shows what knowing and doing really means. With the track record of the Kiev lot and their Nazi allies how you keep a nation together is one big problem. Crimea will go by free and democratic ways and the West and the apologists here will go on about how terrible it is. The Kiev mob and the West is so damnably stupi in creating a distance right from the start with the rest of Ukraine where much of the industry is and will be their losss and their fault.
"America, time after time, has interfered with, disrupted countries then destroyed them when it suited."
Do you have a list of the destroyed countries? You do mean destroyed, don't you?
"With the track record of the Kiev lot and their Nazi allies how you keep a nation together is one big problem."
Why, you send in the evil dictator, Vlad Putin.
Did anyone else notice the similarities between what's playing out between Russia, Crimea etc. and the way the US annexed Texas and what's now the west coast states?
Did anyone else notice the similarities between what's playing out between Russia, Crimea etc. and the way the US annexed Texas and what's now the west coast states?
I did and it sickens me.
For a deeper insight into events in Ukraine, give this a glance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8US_7X0r3c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8US_7X0r3c)
That sniff stuff is very convincing... you know.
rjh - I did not know that the subject of the words to be used in the referendum had been discussed (or even known) before. Ah well we all make mistakes.
So you think the change in Government was due to an illegal act.
Actually I agree - it was - but then many countries have had illegal changes in Government according to the laws of the time; France, Russia, England, USA, to mention but four.
You are right that there are two sides, but what is different about Putin's Russia is that they have directly intervened militarily without any recourse to the UN and in disregard of their own international obligations. We have (you have) seen on the News Russian soldiers operating in the Crimea not very heavily disguised as Not Russian Soldiers.
Putin is in the process of annexing the Crimea using a fixed Referendum as a cover. I don't think anyone is fooled by that masquerading as legitimate due process, including yourself.
Had Putin waited I suspect that the Crimea would eventually have taken the path he wants, but as it stands he has made an everlasting enemy of a former ally and squandered a huge amount of international respect for Russia.
That's the idea: "our country is surrounded by foes - I'm the Saviour" and such stuff. It works on our populace well enough.
OK. Let me see if I have this straight (can't tell without a score card, and we're fresh out of score cards)
A president of questionable legality (Putin; just ask Josh about Putin's legality) is at loggerheads with a government that got to power by illegal coup (clue: the present government of Ukraine wasn't exactly voted in) over the Crimea, which -may- decide by questionably legal vote to secede from Ukraine and join with Russia-- long ago the Crimea was part of Russia and was made part of Ukraine in a Soviet restructuring, as I understand it now.
I would note that the guys presently running Ukraine appear to be the same sort that the Allies had to fight in WW2, and the fact that they're presently in power by the means they used does not bode well for future events. That our president says this government is "legal" boggles the mind.
Why do I have the feeling that this all looks like a South-Side gangland power struggle and we're rooting for the gang we each find least offensive, and hope we don't get dragged into their turf war?
Hmmm..... Nazis with nukes. That should keep you up at night.
That's the idea: "our country is surrounded by foes - I'm the Saviour" and such stuff. It works on our populace well enough.
Yup - Putin the Magnificent.
Just a reminder, Mr. Howie, for all the bollocks you post on here about Jim and I's country, it is YOUR country who has only failed to invade 22 or so countries in it's illustrious history.
But of course, I know you won't accept facts, as they have this annoying habit of getting in the way of one's bollocky posts.
(And yes, I shamelessly stole one of the UK's words;
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.sbnation.com%2Fimported_assets%2F1851811%2F61111-DrCox-deal-with-it-gif-scrubs-XgR3.gif&hash=8479a638e1a159fe9207dfff960600f4" rel="cached" data-hash="8479a638e1a159fe9207dfff960600f4" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1851811/61111-DrCox-deal-with-it-gif-scrubs-XgR3.gif)
Putin is in the process of annexing the Crimea using a fixed Referendum as a cover. I don't think anyone is fooled by that masquerading as legitimate due process, including yourself.
I'm not convinced that he even needs to fix it, the new gang in Kiev isn't exactly friendly to the russians living in the country.
No Southern mouth your country is a guilty party. Time after time it has stuck it's nose into countries all over the place as if you have some right to do this from on high. Jimbro does have a built-in mental thing about Russia even though your land is the most imperialist place on the planet. Your youthful belligerence does effect your grey cells the way you resort to the language you have to use. It is your lot that leads the support of an illegal government in Kiev and is rubbishing the Crimea which HAS an elected government. Macallan does have a point and you forget because it suits that much of the Russian population in Ukraine has been woefully treated. Your President and that other lying part of Laurel and Hardy, namely, Kerry go on about illegality yet support that illegal Kiev government and it's Nazi inclusion. Must say that you don't seem to know much about the place hence you falling back on abuse and young crassness.
President Putin does not have to influence or sneak about Crimea. It has always wanted to be Russian and the vote will show that at the weekend. Crimea is wise because if the Kiev bandits keep on the path to Europe they will go down the financial drain. The financial institutions only want Ukraine into their fold so they can give big loans and get great interest. They don't give a damn really. Maybe you could explain why your country thinks that a rebel government which only reflects on half of the country is okay and that including Nazis is okay. Talk about hypocrisy. At least after the vote Crimeans will not be saddled with the great future debt that Ukraine will be saddled with for decades. The east of the country should get out to.
mouth your country
President Putin
You're good at both failures. Not that inability to express something, but that something might not be worth expressing...
That's the idea: "our country is surrounded by foes - I'm the Saviour" and such stuff. It works on our populace well enough.
Yup - Putin the Magnificent.
It works here, too. Fear of Canada and Mexico is rampant. I have trouble sleeping. We must attack now. That's my red line and I'm sticking to it!
=====================================================
Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-03-13, 00:03:53
No Southern mouth your country is a guilty party.
Snap! Another brilliant put down by Mr. Howie. Old Southern mouth must be writhing with pain.
there are two sides, but what is different about Putin's Russia is that they have directly intervened militarily without any recourse to the UN
Without recourse to the UN? Are you kidding or simply short of memory? Any precedent where
souveran souvereign states have been bombed without UN mandate?
However, AFAIK Russian military didn't fire a sinlgle shot so far.
Putin is in the process of annexing the Crimea using a fixed Referendum as a cover. I don't think anyone is fooled by that masquerading as legitimate due process,
Russia (not Putin) is in the process to get Crimea, a teritory which btw was in its posssession for centuries.
If the vote of Crimeans isn't decisive what else could be?
Had Putin waited I suspect that the Crimea would eventually have taken the path he wants, but as it stands he has made an everlasting enemy of a former ally and squandered a huge amount of international respect for Russia.
So do you think the majority of Crimea's residents sympathize with the 'new Ukrainian government'?
Crimea will take the path it desires. You can bet on it. I'm afraid it won't be the path our leaders have planned for and the main reason for their enragement.
Everybody noticed how 'respectfully' Western media was reporting about the Olympics in Sochi... So far about 'international' respect.
souveran states
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.performancemotorcare.com%2Facatalog%2Fpinnaclewax_Liquid_Souveran_p.jpg&hash=70c77bf0c6d8e234f7d322c5344f0177" rel="cached" data-hash="70c77bf0c6d8e234f7d322c5344f0177" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.performancemotorcare.com/acatalog/pinnaclewax_Liquid_Souveran_p.jpg)States with wax industry?:)
That's the idea: "our country is surrounded by foes - I'm the Saviour" and such stuff. It works on our populace well enough.
It works here, too.
For sure it does.
The USA is however a special case since it has 'neighbors' all around the world :)
Well, now that the fear of Cuba is history and the fear of Iraq has been sorted out, what about the fear of Iran?
There is no reason to relax because the list of states representing a threat to the USA will be kept alive for decades to come.
Putin is in the process of annexing the Crimea using a fixed Referendum as a cover. I don't think anyone is fooled by that masquerading as legitimate due process,
Russia (not Putin) is in the process to get Crimea, a teritory which btw was in its posssession for centuries.
Given that rationale, Spain could claim the US, and Portugal could claim Brazil.
====================================
Well, now that the fear of Cuba is history and the fear of Iraq has been sorted out, what about the fear of Iran?
Who's afraid of Iran? That's US political bullshit.
Russia (not Putin) is in the process to get Crimea, a teritory which btw was in its posssession for centuries.
Given that rationale, Spain could claim the US, and Portugal could claim Brazil.
If the majority of US residents would decide to become part of Spain, why not?
Imagine Washington, D.C. being the new capital of Spain or Brasília the new capital of Portugal :jester:
Who's afraid of Iran? That's US political bullshit.
Unfortunately not the only one with a large geopolitical and economic impact.
The drama continues.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fl.yimg.com%2Fbt%2Fapi%2Fres%2F1.2%2F25ZwIwLpbzTYkpgvtpkObQ--%2FYXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM0MjtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01MDA-%2Fhttp%3A%2F%2Fmedia.zenfs.com%2Fen_us%2FNews%2Fucomics.com%2Fpo140311.gif&hash=51ce0e83362d5d7bc914da3939ea03f5" rel="cached" data-hash="51ce0e83362d5d7bc914da3939ea03f5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/25ZwIwLpbzTYkpgvtpkObQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTM0MjtweW9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz01MDA-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ucomics.com/po140311.gif)
there are two sides, but what is different about Putin's Russia is that they have directly intervened militarily without any recourse to the UN
Without recourse to the UN? Are you kidding or simply short of memory? Any precedent where souveran souvereign states have been bombed without UN mandate?
However, AFAIK Russian military didn't fire a sinlgle shot so far.
I said recourse, not mandate.
It has been referred to the UN now. (http://johnib.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/obama-kerry-work-last-minute-diplomatic-resolution-in-ukraine-crimea-offering-putin-an-exit-route/) Russia will vetoe the resolution of course, but we will see who is on what side of the argument.
But it may not come to that. Kerry is suggesting a way out for Putin's Russia whereby the democratic ticks and balances can be satisfied. It may well lead to the Crimea separating from the Ukraine, but if that is done it should be done properly according to the Ukrainian law, not at the point of the Gun. That's what Putin's Russia should have done in the first place; by demanding an end to the internal fighting and insisting on early new elections after Yanukovych fled.
Yes I say Putin's Russia deliberately. I don't have a problem with Russians as such, just with that facet of their character that seems to adore an autocratic leader, which Putin postures to perfection.
vetoe
vetoe
"veto":P
Surely you have something better to add than that Russian borscht.
vetoe
vetoe
"veto":P
OK. I give up. A Russian is trying to teach an Englishman how to write English. That is a bit of a howl.
Kerry is suggesting a way out for Putin's Russia
Kerry is suggesting a way out for Putin's Russia? You mean the guy in the picture below? :D
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fdavisenterprise.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F03%2F4kerryW-1024x700.jpg&hash=730a02ac5e2e47cd866d0eb97028882c" rel="cached" data-hash="730a02ac5e2e47cd866d0eb97028882c" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://davisenterprise.s3.amazonaws.com/files/2014/03/4kerryW-1024x700.jpg)
It may well lead to the Crimea separating from the Ukraine, but if that is done it should be done properly according to the Ukrainian law, not at the point of the Gun.
- According to Ukrainian law? Which Ukrainian law is the USA referring to? Does the USA mix up the Ukrainian law with US imposed law or that of the putschists?
According to Ukranian constitution the actual interim Ukrainian government has no legitimacy.
Even US law prohibits any form of aid to putschist regimes. So far about law...
- Russian 'occupants' pointing guns at Crimeans? Wonder how absurd propaganda can get.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.welt.de%2Fimg%2Fausland%2Fcrop125490970%2F1098727800-ci3x2l-w620%2FPro-Russian-demonstrators-take-part-in-a-rally-in-the-Crimean-town-of-Yevpatoria.jpg&hash=595482d1a953d26c36357a7214f4b89d" rel="cached" data-hash="595482d1a953d26c36357a7214f4b89d" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.welt.de/img/ausland/crop125490970/1098727800-ci3x2l-w620/Pro-Russian-demonstrators-take-part-in-a-rally-in-the-Crimean-town-of-Yevpatoria.jpg) (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2014%2F2%2F25%2F1393326170950%2FSevastopol-011.jpg&hash=e6c2ae346658687c1f2e271a59879ce3" rel="cached" data-hash="e6c2ae346658687c1f2e271a59879ce3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/2/25/1393326170950/Sevastopol-011.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbcimg.co.uk%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2F73179000%2Fjpg%2F_73179624_021282371-1.jpg&hash=32c2dc8bccea9e5647b9b496aaaad374" rel="cached" data-hash="32c2dc8bccea9e5647b9b496aaaad374" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/73179000/jpg/_73179624_021282371-1.jpg) (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia.komonews.com%2Fimages%2F140306_crimea_ukraine_660.jpg&hash=a6cfe7229d9c46ed9673680a52748082" rel="cached" data-hash="a6cfe7229d9c46ed9673680a52748082" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://media.komonews.com/images/140306_crimea_ukraine_660.jpg)
I don't have a problem with Russians as such, just with that facet of their character
That's priceless! :rolleyes:
OK. I give up. A Russian is trying to teach an Englishman how to write English. That is a bit of a howl.
I know a Russian woman who speaks and writes English, Dutch, as well as German very well indeed. Besides, Vladimir Nabokov could teach all of us a thing or two about English prose. :knight:
It works here, too. Fear of Canada and Mexico is rampant. I have trouble sleeping. We must attack now. That's my red line and I'm sticking to it!
North Korea is going to invade any day now :right:
Russia (not Putin) is in the process to get Crimea, a teritory which btw was in its posssession for centuries.
Given that rationale, Spain could claim the US, and Portugal could claim Brazil.
If the majority of US residents would decide to become part of Spain, why not?
Imagine Washington, D.C. being the new capital of Spain or Brasília the new capital of Portugal :jester:
How about giving Louisiana back to France? I'm sure they'd be thrilled. Both of them. :right:
Kerry is suggesting a way out for Putin's Russia
According to Ukrainian law? Which Ukrainian law is the USA referring to? Does the USA mix up the Ukrainian law with US imposed law or that of the putschists?
According to Ukranian constitution the actual interim Ukrainian government has no legitimacy.
One would assume the Ukrainian law about a referendum, which must be a nation-wide referendum.
The Kiev group did not consult the country beyond the western, eastern or southern areas did they? That is kind of illegal in itself and highly selective. The ousted President had been prepared to have the constitution altered and his powers reduced. That arrogant Kiev Prime Minister has a nerve telling Crimea it is acting illegaly. He has been blatantly mouthing about Russia and it's invasion of Ukraine. Where?
The only Russia military in Crimea is the large contingent connected with the Black Sea base and they are aloowed to move about regarding moving people and equipment. The West led of course by the US as usual has warped this into something else. Western media is going banas on an invasion that doesn't exist. The men in uniform away from the naval base are Crimean volunteers not Russian soldiers. Read that slowly so it registers. The people in Crimea never wanted to be in Ukraine but the Reds gave them no choice and west Ukraine has long sniped at east Ukraine because there is a large Russian. And so what if Russian troops were doing manoeuvres near Ukraine after all NAT does that near Russia. Poland for example as one.population. There are lies and damn lies and both are the sum together of what the West is dong about Ukraine and Russia. So if wego on with the threats and lay down restrictions Russia will do the same. Crimea is returning to Russia and quite right too.
rjhowie: There are lies and damn lies and both are the sum together of what the West is dong about Ukraine and Russia
West :down: Ukraine and Russia :up:
The rest of the globe ???
If it's from
The Onion you can believe it.
WASHINGTON—According to a poll released Monday by the Pew Research Center, the escalating conflict between Russia and Ukraine has left Americans sharply and bitterly divided along ignorant and apathetic lines, with the nation’s citizenry evenly split between grossly misinformed and wholly indifferent factions.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/ (http://www.theonion.com/articles/ukrainianrussian-tensions-dividing-us-citizens-alo,35428/)
No Southern mouth your country is a guilty party. Time after time it has stuck it's nose into countries all over the place as if you have some right to do this from on high. Jimbro does have a built-in mental thing about Russia even though your land is the most imperialist place on the planet. Your youthful belligerence does effect your grey cells the way you resort to the language you have to use. It is your lot that leads the support of an illegal government in Kiev and is rubbishing the Crimea which HAS an elected government. Macallan does have a point and you forget because it suits that much of the Russian population in Ukraine has been woefully treated. Your President and that other lying part of Laurel and Hardy, namely, Kerry go on about illegality yet support that illegal Kiev government and it's Nazi inclusion. Must say that you don't seem to know much about the place hence you falling back on abuse and young crassness.
President Putin does not have to influence or sneak about Crimea. It has always wanted to be Russian and the vote will show that at the weekend. Crimea is wise because if the Kiev bandits keep on the path to Europe they will go down the financial drain. The financial institutions only want Ukraine into their fold so they can give big loans and get great interest. They don't give a damn really. Maybe you could explain why your country thinks that a rebel government which only reflects on half of the country is okay and that including Nazis is okay. Talk about hypocrisy. At least after the vote Crimeans will not be saddled with the great future debt that Ukraine will be saddled with for decades. The east of the country should get out to.
We have come nowhere near invading all but 22 or so countries on this earth; an "honour" only the UK holds.
Why did the UK do this? Because it wanted things done it's way, same as we have been known to do.
Where the heck do you think we learned it all from old chap? :cheers:
We have come nowhere near invading all but 22 or so countries on this earth; an "honour" only the UK holds.
Why did the UK do this? Because it wanted things done it's way, same as we have been known to do.
Where the heck do you think we learned it all from old chap? :cheers:
I learned them from my mom. She was a tough one!
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQ7LdYR16IMTaG8zp6OIbd-uqHrK6QygMumXq8-ZdsNwCwgKq7nA)I loved her in spite of this sort of thing.
A weak reply by all accounts rebel man. You broke away from us well over two centuries ago and unlike us sticking to the 13 cooloies you lot wnet on to wipe out the red indians everywhere moving west. Something we never planned. Beaause your country became the champion at sooking in with dictatorships, creating wars and still doing it ais all of your own creation. After all you all stood on the premise you would be totally independent and rely on us for nothing and look at the damn mess ever since. Corporates planed the revolution and pulled the strings ever since. Really funny distancing yourselves then wanting to rule the world. No other nation since WW2 has been so deeply involved in creating mayhem than your lot. If anyone doesn't give in they can expect to be blooted the thing that tees you lot off is now there is one country you cannot control from your pathetic feeling the world must be run and influenced by you. For a young man you show why the land of nutjobs is still resonant. Education over there is a lot to blame (you noting jimbro?).
You do display the arrogance of know-it-all youth but if I was a betting man by the wime you reach your wineter years yo will be a comfortable off corporate. If aliens ever land here I hope they looked at hollywood first then plunk in the ex-colonies and give the rest of the world normality and fewer conflicts. :knight:
I just heard a little bit about this on the radio while on my way home. I'm fresh out of people to like over there, it seems that all the governments involved directly in this-- the Russian, the Ukrainian and the Crimean-- are up to their armpits in questionable-at-best activity. Crimea and Ukraine could be said not to even have legitimate governments at the moment, so it's an open question whether any decision made would be binding.
Poland, from a certain historic perretrospective, can claim (at least part of) Ukraine:)
And Germany could claim a wee bit of Poland! Now the north east of Italy including Venice has a separatist movement now.
Anyway, if it is okay for Czechoslovakia to be two places and Kosovo to vote to detach it is just as right for Crimea. It never wanted to be part of Ukraine and is going home. So the West has tio live with it and not just accept the separations it wants to supervise.
Where the heck do you think we learned it all from old chap? :cheers:
Yup. We learned from the best! :up:
Anyway, if it is okay for Czechoslovakia to be two places and Kosovo to vote to detach it is just as right for Crimea. It never wanted to be part of Ukraine and is going home. So the West has tio live with it and not just accept the separations it wants to supervise.
If Crimea wants to be separate, fine. But at issue is the Russian invasion and possible annexation by Russia.
"going on about rights and stuff"
Let them decide for themself. I might be wrong but I expect the majority will vote for 'annexation'.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-671121-galleryV9-fnko.jpg&hash=74a5364b2c48a3a8a172e13f7639d808" rel="cached" data-hash="74a5364b2c48a3a8a172e13f7639d808" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-671121-galleryV9-fnko.jpg)
Russian agent provocateur taking a bath in Sevastopol
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-671126-galleryV9-vnsm.jpg&hash=0f26414845d5e7c0f86f05a45879c24c" rel="cached" data-hash="0f26414845d5e7c0f86f05a45879c24c" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn3.spiegel.de/images/image-671126-galleryV9-vnsm.jpg)
Pro Russian militia pointing guns at voting Crimeans in Simferopol.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-671125-galleryV9-dfml.jpg&hash=907cfbc7f029cd44c014a47383f03066" rel="cached" data-hash="907cfbc7f029cd44c014a47383f03066" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn2.spiegel.de/images/image-671125-galleryV9-dfml.jpg)
Thousands of Crimean Tatar protesters chanting pro Kiev slogans.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-671120-galleryV9-vzhk.jpg&hash=f0bad2ed2f689f7d05074341703d1f46" rel="cached" data-hash="f0bad2ed2f689f7d05074341703d1f46" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-671120-galleryV9-vzhk.jpg)
For an incisive and thorough analysis of Monsieur Putin, watch this scholar of all things Russian dissect the man.
http://www.hulu.com/watch/603785#i0,p11,d0 (http://www.hulu.com/watch/603785#i0,p11,d0)
Sewastopol
balaclava (n.)
"woolen head covering", especially worn by soldiers, evidently named for village near Sebastopol, Russia, site of a battle Oct. 25, 1854, in the Crimean War. But the term (originally Balaclava helmet) does not appear before 1881 and seems to have come into widespread use in the Boer War. The British troops suffered from the cold in the Crimean War, and the usage might be a remembrance of that conflict. The town name (Balaklava) often is said to be from Turkish, but is perhaps folk-etymologized from a Greek original Palakion.
@Jimbro3738
(https://vivaldi.net/media/com_easysocial/photos/6835/32875/8398836c5a7ffbd3db093ec3982aabbe_original.png)
I had no luck with that.
You might bring another one for an incisive and thorough analysis of Lord Obama. Maybe I'll have more luck with it. :)
I had no luck with that.
You might bring another one for an incisive and thorough analysis of Lord Obama. Maybe I'll have more luck with it. :)
Try this one.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-march-3-2014-seth-macfarlane (http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-march-3-2014-seth-macfarlane)
This one worked for me :)
Latest graphic out of Russia.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Foblogdeeoblogda.files.wordpress.com%2F2013%2F08%2Fscreen-shot-2013-08-31-at-1-10-36-pm.png%3Fw%3D158%26amp%3Bh%3D174&hash=c335715e1335b8a4e69517459c47e981" rel="cached" data-hash="c335715e1335b8a4e69517459c47e981" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://oblogdeeoblogda.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/screen-shot-2013-08-31-at-1-10-36-pm.png?w=158&h=174)
Firstly the comment from Sanguinemoon about the "Russian invasion." Ehrm, where is it? The only Russian military are the 25,000 entitled to be in the Black Sea base and which Ukraine is paid for in big money. There are NO Russian troops and NO Russian tanks. Western leaders led of course by some numbskull in the White House for some time have elsewhere said how good it is for people to have self determination - yeah, provided it is sanctioned by the US of A. For a nation that has interfered continually across the globe since WW2 the sheer brass neck is astonishing. So too is the media and politicians hype. There wass also a lot of guff about Russian military activity manoeuvres at the Ukrainian border when in fact the even was 800 miles away. Television led be America showed those tanks and lied that they were in Crimea, etc.
Ukraine had a coup led by the far right on the streets of Kiev. There are dozens of neo-Nazis in the Kiev parliament and they are in the government including the deputy Prime Minister. One neo-Nazi is standing for President. Somehow the Western logic is that a duly elected government is taken out and rump take over and that is legal? At the same time the Crimea given away when it didn't want to be moved decades ago has a properly run referendum in the face of an illegitimate government that didn't include their tradition and they are illegal? How crassly stupid is that? The idiots presently running Ukraine and led by that despeicanle and arrogant Prime Minister who also lied about Russians are a danger. The Russian Federation was giving Ukraine a loan without conditions. Now the basket case country will have even more debt and even more conditions along with austerity. Talk about being bonkers.
A convoy of armoured vehicles and TANKS the other day headed towards the east of the countyry but were stopped by unarmed people who asked them nicely to go away and after a few hours they di so back towards Kiev. That was the Ukrainian Army. So if you want to look at rights and secession, etc you must be cleared by the West first based on it's record of being two-faced. One far right party boiss that clown standing for President has threatened to blow up a pipe line. Tv channels are still referring to the former government shooting down people in the Kiev square when it was actually a neo-Nazi lot who shot other fighters as well as policemen. It is frighteningly amazing how utterly criminal and outright liars the West lot are.
Nothing much from jimbro. If you don't know much about something fall back on clutching at pointless straws. The only thing he has give is his usual Cold War mentality obsession with Russia. Always the same when people don't see the thing in their own eye. In the end Crimea will return to it's home and whether the cabal here in the West huff and puff or not Crimea will become part of the Russian Federation and that will be that. However the way the Kiev illegals are acting towards Russian speakers may only make further collapse possible.
Firstly the comment from Sanguinemoon about the "Russian invasion." Ehrm, where is it? The only Russian military are the 25,000 entitled to be in the Black Sea base and which Ukraine is paid for in big money. There are NO Russian troops and NO Russian tanks.
Notice that your statement is self-contradictory. First, Ukrainians are being paid big money for the military base, and then there are no troops and no tanks? Is the military base empty?
Everything is there, I tell you. Fighter jets, artillery, tanks, navy, troops, and they are now openly all over Crimea. It's just like the South Ossetia war was. Nobody is doing anything, only Russia is doing something.
They look like tanks but they're actually rides at Disney World. And, yes, they are in Ukraine.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fgreengurlz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2Fukraine-says-80000-russian-soldiers-and-270-tanks-are-threatening-a-full-scale-invasion-300x200.jpg&hash=5172380b413142a1463ef0c60c8e68ce" rel="cached" data-hash="5172380b413142a1463ef0c60c8e68ce" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://greengurlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ukraine-says-80000-russian-soldiers-and-270-tanks-are-threatening-a-full-scale-invasion-300x200.jpg)
There are TWO SIDES BUT SOMEHOW THAT IS IGNORED. When the first report came out about deaths there was deliberately no mention that almost half were policemen. Molotov cocktails, firing bricks and anything that hands can lay on at the officers. One policeman was actually beaten to a death pulp my the mob . And mob is what they are. They yak about Ukraine then attack and burn government buildings so how does that help any future governemnt. Neither can an elected man be expected to give up by terror gangs on the street.
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs. Now talk about sanctions? Can we remind everyone that one half of the country does not want to be in the EEC. And anyway what financial advantage is there in it?
Senator McCain tops the list of utter balloons that gives America a bad name. He looks and sounds utterly stupid.
One policeman was actually beaten to a death pulp my the mob.Go back and read what you wrote.
He has a counterpart in Glasgow.
balloons
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.go4costumes.com%2Fstockimages%2F42942.jpg&hash=c4afef315b6067b169aeeabddba3c868" rel="cached" data-hash="c4afef315b6067b169aeeabddba3c868" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.go4costumes.com/stockimages/42942.jpg)
He may have meant "buffoons," but who knows. Scottish is a difficult language, and that's just one more Howieism to add to the growing list.
What's lost in all this buffoonery are the actual events in Crimea and eastern Ukraine. On those matters I have to admit to near complete ignorance, and in that respect I'm not alone among the posters in DnD.
We depend on press, internet and TV reports, then pick and choose the ones that support our built-in biases. Mr. Howie is not alone in that respect.
You're physically closer than most here, and I'm guessing that you're guessing, too.
"Buffoons,"?? ???
Look in the mirror.
"Buffoons,"?? ???
For a guy who spends so much of his time trying to teach English to English speakers, you're going to have to get used to looking up words in common usage.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buffoon
Aren't buffoons those big instruments in the woodwind section?
Notice that your statement is self-contradictory. First, Ukrainians are being paid big money for the military base, and then there are no troops and no tanks? Is the military base empty?
The Russians have paid for their military base in Crimea and you are wondering why the base isn't empty or are you considering the presence of the troops there 'invasion'?
The agreement the Russians have paid for allowed them for troops up to 250,000 in Crimea. So far about the invasion of Crimea...
It's just like the South Ossetia war was. Nobody is doing anything, only Russia is doing something.
Wasn't it Saakashvili who started (2008) the military assault against South Ossetia? Have I missed something?
They look like tanks but they're actually rides at Disney World. And, yes, they are in Ukraine.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fgreengurlz.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2Fukraine-says-80000-russian-soldiers-and-270-tanks-are-threatening-a-full-scale-invasion-300x200.jpg&hash=5172380b413142a1463ef0c60c8e68ce" rel="cached" data-hash="5172380b413142a1463ef0c60c8e68ce" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://greengurlz.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ukraine-says-80000-russian-soldiers-and-270-tanks-are-threatening-a-full-scale-invasion-300x200.jpg)
Just out of curiosity, may I ask you where in the Ukraine that picture was taken from?
I don't mean the exact coordinates but the region at least :)
The situation is of course no joking matter, but Mr. Howie is so terribly jelly (another word for Josh to look up, and this one will be difficult for him to find) that the UK cannot push it's weight around any longer.
I personally blame mass consumption of Diet Irn Bru (having tried the real Irn Bru and Diet). :right:
Uusal side step from across the pond. Russia has NOT invaded Ukraine and has NO tanks there. It is allowed to move troops in and out of the place. Time after time the West led by the usual lot preach aboutself determination and the right to sovereignty and et all but only if it suits them. I watched a US news programme last night and as usual like here the media is as bias as you can create. Even though the vast majority of the voters in Crimea said what they wanted they searched about for someone who objected! Crimea was part of Russia until the Reds gave it to Ukraine but the people have never been happy about that so why isn't the fount of all freedoms and rights acknowledging where the people want to be. Now the slant is on eastern Ukraine where the Ukrainian Army hadtanks on the road and on trains heading east. Then they were stopped by unarmed and peaceful protesters who asked them to go away and after some hours they did. Somehow Russian Army manoeuvres nearly 900 miles away are on the border.
A pefectly elected and legitimate government was taken over led by the fighters in the Kiev square.They were a vicious and bad lot and as pointed out the snipers were from a rebel group on thefar right as the police didn't have guns. Suitably ignored in the West of course. So dangerous neo-Nazi thungs suitably blindolded went berserk and created mayhem and led the killings then illegally took over the government. Did they consult the rest of the country in the east or south? No they did not and made it plain they couldn't care a damn that Russians made up much of the east and south. Somehow the warped minds in the US and folloed like lapdogs by Europe do a nonsense over Ukraine. Compared to the violence and evil going on around Kiev compare that with Crimea and what a damn difference. Also ignored is that Crimea has an elected government and it decided on the referendum because the Kiev Reich had notime for them so people here in the West should stop creating a cold war.
It is not Russia that is causing the problem it is the Kiev rump and they are getting away with it not Russia not the Crimea. The Southern loser is following the usual American hypocrisy line.
Notice that your statement is self-contradictory. First, Ukrainians are being paid big money for the military base, and then there are no troops and no tanks? Is the military base empty?
The Russians have paid for their military base in Crimea and you are wondering why the base isn't empty or are you considering the presence of the troops there 'invasion'?
I consider troops all over the place during a referendum as invasion. It's everywhere in the media, unless you are wilfully blind http://yle.fi/uutiset/venaja_kokoaa_krimille_raskaita_aseita__ukrainan_sotilaat_pyytavat_kaskyja/7139315
It's just like the South Ossetia war was. Nobody is doing anything, only Russia is doing something.
Wasn't it Saakashvili who started (2008) the military assault against South Ossetia? Have I missed something?
You missed - again - where the international border runs. It may very well be that Saakashvili started the assault on Aug 8, 2008, but he was within his own borders, whereas Russians were not and are not. Plus Russians reportedly attacked outside South Ossetia into Georgia proper too, just like they are all over Crimea now, not only at the military base. Saakashvili didn't start Russia's military presence in South Ossetia and Ukrainians didn't start Russia's military presence in Sevastopol.
"Buffoons,"?? ???
For a guy who spends so much of his time trying to teach English to English speakers, you're going to have to get used to looking up words in common usage.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/buffoon
"Buffoons,"?? ???
The results of the referendum are a little fishy. Really 96.8% in favor? If you're gonna rig an election give your side maybe 60-something percent :p I stepped outside and smelled a pile of horseshit, and now I know where it came from.
We were having even higher percent in some local "results" some time earlier --- an area showed a 146% for Putin. No kidding - it was true! Russians are very far ahead of the other world in the field of number sciences;)
The results of the referendum are a little fishy. Really 96.8% in favor? If you're gonna rig an election give your side maybe 60-something percent :p I stepped outside and smelled a pile of horseshit, and now I know where it came from.
The correct percentage was 100%. The stupid reporters don't understand numbers or percentages.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.verstaresearch.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F03%2FMath-Confusion.jpg&hash=b3a789fca4fce3c99ff112eef564a10c" rel="cached" data-hash="b3a789fca4fce3c99ff112eef564a10c" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.verstaresearch.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Math-Confusion.jpg)
The results of the referendum are a little fishy. Really 96.8% in favor? If you're gonna rig an election give your side maybe 60-something percent :p I stepped outside and smelled a pile of horseshit, and now I know where it came from.
The correct percentage was 100%.
Wrong. As Josh indicates, in Russia you can get voting percentages like 146%. From that they begin rigging downwards, but it's against their conscience to rig it
too much :D
My fair guess is that Crimeans were about 120% in favour of joining Russia. The official results are obviously rigged.
The results of the referendum are a little fishy. Really 96.8% in favor? If you're gonna rig an election give your side maybe 60-something percent :p I stepped outside and smelled a pile of horseshit, and now I know where it came from.
The correct percentage was 100%.
Wrong. As Josh indicates, in Russia you can get voting percentages like 146%. From that they begin rigging downwards, but it's against their conscience to rig it too much :D
:devil: It's called Putin math. :devil:
so, at 5:13 I received an email from the Financial Times indicating that Puti-kins annex Crimea, under pretext that the Russian speakers are being mistreated there.
It was gust[l]y, so I dropped in to the local library to take a warm.
Hear a talk: "Where are they?", "Went to Mitino {a district in Moscow - way too far from the city centre} for a rally [I mean 'mass-meeting]."
Then I interfere: "What rally?" They say: "A rally in defence of Crimea." I ask: "In defence from WHOM?" "I don't know."
Me: "Who invited then?" Answer: "The city administration.meant 'ours'"
I got it...
Guys, see? Can it be a "response" to the "sanctions against Russia" or what?:)
...under pretext that the Russian speakers are being mistreated there.
They spoke too much
:bandit::lol:
so, at 5:13 I received an email from the Financial Times indicating that Puti-kins annex Crimea, under pretext that the Russian speakers are being mistreated there.
Has your mail client no spam filter? :o
AFAIK Crimeans voted for annexation. It's the best pretext one can think of. :)
...under pretext that the Russian speakers are being mistreated there.
They spoke too much:bandit:
No, Josh...he meant Russian speaker systems for Russian leaders. The photo shows him putting on a CD on for his visitor, Mr. V. Pootin.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.guim.co.uk%2Fsys-images%2FGuardian%2FPix%2Fpictures%2F2010%2F10%2F5%2F1286291614253%2FDmitry-Medvedev-006.jpg&hash=f601a3f77b5bd9048101efa22d8539da" rel="cached" data-hash="f601a3f77b5bd9048101efa22d8539da" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/10/5/1286291614253/Dmitry-Medvedev-006.jpg)
I consider troops all over the place during a referendum as invasion. It's everywhere in the media, unless you are wilfully blind http://yle.fi/uutiset/venaja_kokoaa_krimille_raskaita_aseita__ukrainan_sotilaat_pyytavat_kaskyja/7139315
Russiam military all over the place during the referendum? Like in the picuture you are linking to? Is the building we see in the background a polling station? Are the two ladies we see in the picture coming from the polling?
You missed - again - where the international border runs. It may very well be that Saakashvili started the assault on Aug 8, 2008, but he was within his own borders, whereas Russians were not and are not. Plus Russians reportedly attacked outside South Ossetia into Georgia proper too, just like they are all over Crimea now, not only at the military base. Saakashvili didn't start Russia's military presence in South Ossetia and Ukrainians didn't start Russia's military presence in Sevastopol.
International borders? That idiot was within his borders?
I see, those bad Russians. Soviet Union or Russia it doesn't make any difference. Stalin (a Georgian btw), Brezhnev (an Ukrainian btw) or Putin they are all the same...at least for some.
Let's see about those international borders...
Wikipedia is anything but a Russian friendly outlet. Not even Wikipedia's presentation is as shortsighted as yours. :)
- 1991–92 South Ossetia War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991–1992_South_Ossetia_War)
- Russo-Georgian war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war)
Take a deep breath, you're right Ersi, Russia is a big threat. We are sooo innocent, peaceful and good whereas the only thing bad and snaky Russia wants from us is war.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BinWx6BCMAAynAA.jpg:large)
Stalin (a Georgian btw)
Ossetian, btw:)
Brezhnev (an Ukrainian btw)
Not exactly.
Though I don't know:faint:
Wikipedia
That bastard?:irked:
Even Katsung didn't dare to complain about their actions -- although exactly they plunged the most harm to him! :P
so, at 5:13 I received an email from the Financial Times indicating that Puti-kins annex Crimea, under pretext that the Russian speakers are being mistreated there.
Has your mail client no spam filter? :o
AFAIK Crimeans voted for annexation. It's the best pretext one can think of. :)
Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.
How is Russia possibly not the aggressor? Their troops spread from the base and took over Crimea, Russian troops amassed on the Ukrainian border and the fucking launched an ICBM (albeit unarmed ) at the Ukraine, and sank a Ukrainian ship. Oh yeah, Russia can turn US to radioactive ash - Kremlin-backed journalist (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/ukraine-crisis-russia-kiselyov-idUSL6N0MD0P920140316).
Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.
:irked: What bothers me is that nobody asked my opinion! :irked:
May I remind you Sanguinemoon you fit neatly into the silly side of the Western propaganda? Kosovo was a province of the Republic of Serbia and held a referendum in which the majority were Albanian ethnics and guess what there was a small minority of Serbs who objected just like you say about the Tatars. Somehow that was of course fine but the Crimea principle is different? Wake up. Putin has already publicly stated on television that the minorities will be recognised and there will be 3 offical languages - namely Russia, Tatar and Ukrainian. The murderous coup lot in Kiev canclled Russian at the start as an offical language even though they knew the ethnic leaning in the east and Crimea (where over 90% speak Russian). So it was okay for Kosovo which was led by the KLA funded by drug running but somehow not in Crimea. When you cannotjustify the similarity you result to the rather immatre thing the vote was fixed. Not according to foreign watchers who were present.
The West thinks it has some inherent God-given right to do what it wants and stuff anyone who challenges them. That they cannot control a country in this case Russia gets right up their arrogant noses. The rebellion take over in Ukraine was led by militant and vicious thugs from the neo-Nazi quarter (some had SS symbols on the back of their helmets) and they took over a legitimate government and therefore illegal. They ignored their own constitution because it souited them and now the bleat that Crimea is acting un-constitutionally. May I remind you and the other lapdogs that Crimea has a legitimate government unlike Kiev. So9 you and others condemn the Crimeans but applaud the dangerous illegal lot in Kiev? Kiev totally ignored any consultation with the east or south of the country as they were hell-bent on their own agenda and stuff anyone else.
It is not Russia that is causing the problem it is the dangerous cabal in Kiev allied with the hypocritical West creating all sorts of propaganda nonsense. All the tripe about invasdions is just that - tripe and the propaganda here in our media is unbelievable! There is no independent news reporting it is all partisan. Try Kiev if there is any further disintegration and when you consider that Putin has said he would rather see Ukraine sorting itself you of course choose to ignore that and absorb the braining of the propagandist machine here in the West.
As for trying to contain a powerful nation,like Russia through sanctions will also be bad for us let us not forget. The West has been too fond of thinking it has the moral high ground for some reason beyond comprehension.
With regard to Crimea, [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ5ICXMC4xY[/video]
Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.
What your math is worth for, keep in mind that voter turnout was around 75%-80%. So basically the referendum was rejected by at least 20% of Crimeans.
The 95.5% are the result of those who took part at the referendum.
While ethnicity might have been an important factor at the ballot box, it for sure wasn't the only one. Material damage considerations might have been an important factor too. The IMF will impose draconic austerity measures. (e.g. cutting of social spendings - pensions halved, increase of gas prices up to 100%, increased prices for electricity up to 40%, depreciation of the local currency, and so on).
How is Russia possibly not the aggressor? Their troops spread from the base and took over Crimea, Russian troops amassed on the Ukrainian border and the fucking launched an ICBM (albeit unarmed ) at the Ukraine, and sank a Ukrainian ship.
Russia launching an ICMB at the Ukraine?
Where did you got that nonsense from? Another spam mail? :)
According to Caitlin Hayden, spokeswoman of the National Security Council, it was a routine test launch of an ICBM and Russia provided advance notification of this launch to the United States as required under the New START Treaty.
Regardless what Americans and Germans says, mother Russia keeps on conquering...
Simple as that.
Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.
What your math is worth for, keep in mind that voter turnout was around 75%-80%. So basically the referendum was rejected by at least 20% of Crimeans.
The 95.5% are the result of those who took part at the referendum.
I dimly remember that the Tatars wanted to boycott the referendum anyway. Doesn't mean they all did of course.
May I remind you Sanguinemoon you fit neatly into the silly side of the Western propaganda? Kosovo was a province of the Republic of Serbia and held a referendum in which the majority were Albanian ethnics and guess what there was a small minority of Serbs who objected just like you say about the Tatars. Somehow that was of course fine but the Crimea principle is different? Wake up. Putin has already publicly stated on television that the minorities will be recognised and there will be 3 offical languages - namely Russia, Tatar and Ukrainian. The murderous coup lot in Kiev canclled Russian at the start as an offical language even though they knew the ethnic leaning in the east and Crimea (where over 90% speak Russian). So it was okay for Kosovo which was led by the KLA funded by drug running but somehow not in Crimea. When you cannotjustify the similarity you result to the rather immatre thing the vote was fixed. Not according to foreign watchers who were present.
The West thinks it has some inherent God-given right to do what it wants and stuff anyone who challenges them. That they cannot control a country in this case Russia gets right up their arrogant noses. The rebellion take over in Ukraine was led by militant and vicious thugs from the neo-Nazi quarter (some had SS symbols on the back of their helmets) and they took over a legitimate government and therefore illegal. They ignored their own constitution because it souited them and now the bleat that Crimea is acting un-constitutionally. May I remind you and the other lapdogs that Crimea has a legitimate government unlike Kiev. So9 you and others condemn the Crimeans but applaud the dangerous illegal lot in Kiev? Kiev totally ignored any consultation with the east or south of the country as they were hell-bent on their own agenda and stuff anyone else.
It is not Russia that is causing the problem it is the dangerous cabal in Kiev allied with the hypocritical West creating all sorts of propaganda nonsense. All the tripe about invasdions is just that - tripe and the propaganda here in our media is unbelievable! There is no independent news reporting it is all partisan. Try Kiev if there is any further disintegration and when you consider that Putin has said he would rather see Ukraine sorting itself you of course choose to ignore that and absorb the braining of the propagandist machine here in the West.
As for trying to contain a powerful nation,like Russia through sanctions will also be bad for us let us not forget. The West has been too fond of thinking it has the moral high ground for some reason beyond comprehension.
Even beginning to compare this situation to Kosovo is buying Putin's propaganda. The situation is not the same. There was ethnic cleansing and genocide in Kosovo, but not in Crimea.
Except, as I noted, results like that are always a big, steaming pile of bullshit. The Tatars (12% of the population) don't want to be part of Russia for historical reasons and said so. I'm not sure the Ukrainians (24% of the population) do either. The Ethnic Russians account for 58% (down from 67%.) There's no way for that referendum to not have been rigged.
What your math is worth for, keep in mind that voter turnout was around 75%-80%. So basically the referendum was rejected by at least 20% of Crimeans.
The 95.5% are the result of those who took part at the referendum.
While ethnicity might have been an important factor at the ballot box, it for sure wasn't the only one. Material damage considerations might have been an important factor too. The IMF will impose draconic austerity measures. (e.g. cutting of social spendings - pensions halved, increase of gas prices up to 100%, increased prices for electricity up to 40%, depreciation of the local currency, and so on).
How is Russia possibly not the aggressor? Their troops spread from the base and took over Crimea, Russian troops amassed on the Ukrainian border and the fucking launched an ICBM (albeit unarmed ) at the Ukraine, and sank a Ukrainian ship.
Russia launching an ICMB at the Ukraine?
Where did you got that nonsense from? Another spam mail? :)
According to Caitlin Hayden, spokeswoman of the National Security Council, it was a routine test launch of an ICBM and Russia provided advance notification of this launch to the United States as required under the New START Treaty.
Yes, Krake. An ICBM "test fired" over the Ukraine. Routine my ass. The "routine" launch was just in time to threatened the Ukraine. Sure. Drink some more Kool-Aid.
Breaking news: PUTIN wants to annex Josh for repeated bastardization of the English language, amid fears he (Josh) may be corrected by native English speakers. :right:
More at 10.........
I consider troops all over the place during a referendum as invasion. It's everywhere in the media, unless you are wilfully blind http://yle.fi/uutiset/venaja_kokoaa_krimille_raskaita_aseita__ukrainan_sotilaat_pyytavat_kaskyja/7139315
Russiam military all over the place during the referendum? Like in the picuture you are linking to? Is the building we see in the background a polling station? Are the two ladies we see in the picture coming from the polling?
That's Perevalnoye days before the polling. Look up where Perevalnoye is in Crimea. Look for pics of the exact polling moment yourself.
There's a pretty big principled difference we have. For you, referendum at gunpoint easily counts as referendum, to me it doesn't.
You missed - again - where the international border runs. It may very well be that Saakashvili started the assault on Aug 8, 2008, but he was within his own borders, whereas Russians were not and are not. Plus Russians reportedly attacked outside South Ossetia into Georgia proper too, just like they are all over Crimea now, not only at the military base. Saakashvili didn't start Russia's military presence in South Ossetia and Ukrainians didn't start Russia's military presence in Sevastopol.
International borders? That idiot was within his borders?
Let's assume Saakashvili wasn't within his own borders. In whose borders were Russians then?
I think I know where you are coming from. The only way your position can make sense is that you have a bunch of national guilt towards Russians from WWII. You think Russians suffered a lot back then and now you can show your gracious support for compensation.
Here's an exercise for you, if you really want to show compassion: Think of all the peoples squeezed between Russia and Germany during WWII. When you can pull that off, this is the beginning of understanding. To me it's not a West against East situation, but a gloomy threat to everyone between West and East - again.
Edit: As the news says, last night Ukrainian minister of defence gave permission to Ukrainian soldiers to use arms in self-defence. This is too late. It's already over. What Russia is doing is taking an opportunity to move into a power vacuum and take over the power. This makes perfect realpolitikal sense, but is of course not justified by any law other than might makes right.
If "the referendum" was run by RussiansPutans, there was no referendum. And what about the preparation period? Was there any?
Who held "the referendum"? How had it been prepared? Was there any international observation-participation there?..
Take those questions, weigh in possible answers and get that "the referendum" could be no more than masquerade.
......America, time after time, has interfered with, disrupted countries then destroyed them when it suited. Often using the claptrap of looking after their interests.......
I offer no apology, or offer any pity whatsoever for then American President Truman's decision to fry a couple hundred thousand of jap men, women, & children in Hiroshima & Nagasaki to force the beginning of a world peace, as opposed to a continuing of the world war.
BTW ...... to all resident American 'bleeding heart' apologists .... it worked, & it did save American lives. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/grin2.gif)
There were Soviets - who held an inland victory, etc.
Yes, Krake. An ICBM "test fired" over the Ukraine. Routine my ass.
You keep repeating that nonsense. Do you? Even so it won't become more credible.
Once again no, it wasn't fired over the Ukraine. You might check your email again if that's the only source of your informations. ::)
Breaking news: PUTIN wants to annex Josh for repeated bastardization of the English language, amid fears he (Josh) may be corrected by native English speakers. :right:
Even better:
PUTIN will send Josh for bilateral talks to Washington.
Josh will explain to Obama that Pootin isn't the president of Russia. Obama will think that a cactus revolution, missed by the NSA, took place in Russia.
Obama will show his gratitude and Josh will return to his basement with a few bags stuffed with $$$.
Edit: As the news says, last night Ukrainian minister of defence gave permission to Ukrainian soldiers to use arms in self-defence. This is too late.
Too late you say?
Imagine the carnage if that order would have been given in due time in an attempt to stop the Crimeans.
I assume you would have enjoined the bloodbath blaming Russia for it and taking side with the putschist and their Right Sector.
Only person able and willing to prevent such a bloodbath was Putin and fortunately he did it without firing a single shot.
I think I know where you are coming from. The only way your position can make sense is that you have a bunch of national guilt towards Russians from WWII. You think Russians suffered a lot back then and now you can show your gracious support for compensation.
You are utterly wrong. I feel no guilt for things I or my generation is not responsible for. In contrast to some others I'm living in the present and the only thing I care for is the future.
To me it's not a West against East situation, but a gloomy threat to everyone between West and East - again.
A gloomy threat to everyone between West and East?
You mean 'New Europe' where resentments and pathologic fears are easier to get stirred up? A great opportunity for geostrategic games. Even fascists are welcomed as they were in times of ideologic war ("Gladio", you probably heard of it).
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!
Josh will explain to Obama that Pootin isn't the president of Russia.
Not A president.
There are differences even in the negative.
Edit: As the news says, last night Ukrainian minister of defence gave permission to Ukrainian soldiers to use arms in self-defence. This is too late.
Too late you say?
Imagine the carnage if that order would have been given in due time in an attempt to stop the Crimeans.
Nobody was ever stopping Crimeans. And nobody was stopping Russian soldiers from spreading all over Crimea. That's the way for Ukraine to lose their territory.
I think I know where you are coming from. The only way your position can make sense is that you have a bunch of national guilt towards Russians from WWII. You think Russians suffered a lot back then and now you can show your gracious support for compensation.
You are utterly wrong. I feel no guilt for things I or my generation is not responsible for. In contrast to some others I'm living in the present and the only thing I care for is the future.
In this case your position makes absolutely no sense. I am still looking for evidence how you would make sense.
To me it's not a West against East situation, but a gloomy threat to everyone between West and East - again.
A gloomy threat to everyone between West and East?
You mean 'New Europe' where resentments and pathologic fears are easier to get stirred up? A great opportunity for geostrategic games. Even fascists are welcomed as they were in times of ideologic war ("Gladio", you probably heard of it).
Hmm, so all the historical wars and occupations that swept over these territories were the fault of the people who suffered from it? And the current occupation and annexation of Crimea is the fault of Ukraine? I have lost all hope that you begin to make sense.
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!
So you prefer to be the chessman of Russia's geostrategic interests. Whereas I refuse to be a chess piece at all.
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!
I don't think either we (the EU) or Russia much care what the US thinks about this.
I don't think either we (the EU) or Russia much care what the US thinks about this.
Which US would that be? My little corner of the US could care less about Crimea, Ukraine, Moldova.
===================================================
Crimea belongs now to Russia. What will stupid Americans do?
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Other Answers (17)Oldest
StephenG answered 8 hrs ago
No it doesn't
21
Chemical Goldblum answered 8 hrs ago
we dont actually care
11
Richard England answered 8 hrs ago
I'll be 1 step behind you..
So you can count me among the stupid Americans.
=========================================
How about the rest of you? Frenzie? Krake? Josh? Macallan?
I don't really know much about Crimea—besides this:
Half a league, half a league,
Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death,
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
Rode the six hundred.
Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.
Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
Left of six hundred.
When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
Noble six hundred!
Wait--- it gets better. For Crimea to become part of Russia, it first has to declare independence from Ukraine. According to at least one blog posting, once Crimea becomes independent Turkey can claim its right to the place by treaty the Ottoman Empire made with Catherine the Great. This could get to be some -- "fun"....
Further developments as they come.
http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/
Turkey! Turkey! Turkey! :headbang: :knight:
Why does the Crimean situation remind me so much of a rabbit (Crimea) at a convention of carnivores (Russia, Ukraine, Turkey and probably a few others)?
In this case your position makes absolutely no sense
"In this case your position makes absolutely no sense
to me"
I've corrected it for you :)
Hmm, so all the historical wars and occupations that swept over these territories were the fault of the people who suffered from it?
Historical wars and occupations?
The people of those territories (whatever territories/nations you have in mind) don't hold an exclusive monopol over suffering.
Two world wars of the last century, add historical wars of earlier centuries, the bombings of this century and you'll get the picture.
Blame Russia or Putin for all nations' /people's sufferings if it makes you feel better.
So you prefer to be the chessman of Russia's geostrategic interests. Whereas I refuse to be a chess piece at all.
Russia's geostrategic interests?
Are you kidding or just blinded by hatred?
Who were the main meddling actors in the Ukraine? Russia? Putin?
Wherefrom got the rebels backing?
Didn't the legally elected president offerered the 'opposition' to make part of his government till next elections (2015)?
Didn't he also agreed to prepone the elctions for the end of this year?
There was no chance for him to become reelected. Not by Ukrainians and not by Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity. Why then the rush?
Why the putsch? Orchestrated by whom? By Russia? By Putin?
Cui bono?
There is a single profiteer. The actual situation is a win win situation for someone.
It isn't the Ukrainian people, it isn't Russia (nor Putin), nor can it be any
European country (Fuck the EU).
BTW, you don't have to agree because unlike your false reasoning about me I see where you are coming from.
There is a single profiteer. The actual situation is a win win situation for someone.
It isn't the Ukrainian people, it isn't Russia (nor Putin), nor can it be any European country (Fuck the EU).
Right to the point.
And who has created such situation? Mrs Merkel.
And who has created such situation? Mrs Merkel.
She was a serviceable accessory, out of question.
Breaking news: PUTIN wants to annex Josh for repeated bastardization of the English language, amid fears he (Josh) may be corrected by native English speakers. :right:
Even better:
PUTIN will send Josh for bilateral talks to Washington.
Josh will explain to Obama that Pootin isn't the president of Russia. Obama will think that a cactus revolution, missed by the NSA, took place in Russia.
Obama will show his gratitude and Josh will return to his basement with a few bags stuffed with $$$.
This is why our countries run the world and run it well. :cheers:
As always, well played Sir.
:cheers:
And who has created such situation? Mrs Merkel.
She was a serviceable accessory, out of question.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FGEdtg16.jpg&hash=d1160a869124efd59075a5e8bc9ec4f7" rel="cached" data-hash="d1160a869124efd59075a5e8bc9ec4f7" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/GEdtg16.jpg)
Historical wars and occupations?
The people of those territories (whatever territories/nations you have in mind) don't hold an exclusive monopol over suffering.
Two world wars of the last century, add historical wars of earlier centuries, the bombings of this century and you'll get the picture.
Blame Russia or Putin for all nations' /people's sufferings if it makes you feel better.
You are thinking way too big for the situation. Remember, we were talking about Crimea and Ukraine. In the historical context, it's about Russia's ambitions to get back the borders of Soviet Union (or of Russian Empire, that makes about the same territory). It's not about all nations and all peoples, but people within and immediately around those borders. You seem very intent to ignore history.
So you prefer to be the chessman of Russia's geostrategic interests. Whereas I refuse to be a chess piece at all.
Russia's geostrategic interests?
Are you kidding or just blinded by hatred?
Who were the main meddling actors in the Ukraine? Russia? Putin?
Wherefrom got the rebels backing?
You mean United States (I mention it because you mentioned it before)? If so, then you are not just ahistorical, but totally uncontextual, probably kidding or blinded by hatred or all of that. The United States doesn't have direct power over Klichko, Tymoshenko, and others who were important in the Maidan riots. US/EU may have indirect influence by means of rhetorical support, but that's indirect and rhetorical, not "backing" in any relevant sense.
See the situation as it is. Russia is going ahead with the annexation as predicted. US and EU backing is nowhere to be seen. It's like with Hitler. Nobody did anything when Hitler anschlussed Austria and annexed Czechoslovakia. Only when he attacked Poland - which he actually agreed on by means of MRP - the West began doing something. Until then the "backing" from the West was pure rhetorics.
There were several ways to ground the situation earlier. Yanukovych could have used weapons against rebels, that's what normal heads of state do. Why? Because the rebels were about to overthrow the state and that's what head of state is supposed to do with such people. Yanukovych didn't do it. Maybe it was because the rebels actually had the backing of the people? Okay, this is too much for you. Then it was for some other reason, namely, because Putin reined Yanukovych. Who else could have kept him in line? Or, Yanukovych was just plain incompetent coward. That happens. Or the combination of everything I mentioned. You can freely add that United States and EU were major players and Yanukovych was listening to them - even though just before he had rejected the EU treaty proposition. You are free to think whatever you want.
Another moment was when the new government in Ukraine had taken over and Russia's troops began trickling into Crimea, and they moved the referendum in Crimea to an earlier date and changed the contents of it. This was the moment to protect the country, to give battle orders to Ukrainian troops in Crimea and push Russians back to the base. Why this should have been done? Because the new government had to show that it's in power now and is serious about keeping Russians at the base where they belong. With armed conflict erupting, the West would not be able to stand idly by any more and would be forced to take a real stance instead of turning the blind eye. You are again free to mumble something about Western backing here, but it's just irrelevant to the situation, because the situation is what it is. Instead of backing the new government, the West seems to have suggested to "wait and see" - which makes perfect sense for the indecisive West, but makes absolutely no sense for the Ukrainians. So much for "backing".
Cui bono?
Indeed, cui bono. My assessment: Ukraine was turned into a power vacuum and Russia is taking it over. Your assessment? That someone on the other side of the globe is "really" doing it all and we here are mere puppets? Are the existence of Soviet Union, Iron Curtain, etc. also due to that we are mere puppets of forces geographically on the other side of the globe? Poor Russians can't think and act for themselves, but are always victims of blind forces? Was Hitler also played this way? He did nothing of himself?
BTW, you don't have to agree because unlike your false reasoning about me I see where you are coming from.
Right. Namely, I stay within the geopolitical and historical context. You don't, and that's why I don't agree.
it's about Russia's ambitions to get back the borders of Soviet Union (or of Russian Empire, that makes about the same territory).
It's worse than that. Putin wants Alaska back, something that I support if Sarah Palin goes along as a part of the deal. Not only can you see Russia from Alaska, you can see Alaska from Russia, and Putin has his binoculars out.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fasiareport.ru%2Fimages%2Fstories%2Fpersons%2Fputin_binoculars_thumb_medium280_210.jpg&hash=c8fe2f386c84306467ba4dc3f8ce933d" rel="cached" data-hash="c8fe2f386c84306467ba4dc3f8ce933d" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://asiareport.ru/images/stories/persons/putin_binoculars_thumb_medium280_210.jpg)
http://voiceofrussia.com/2012_03_30/70148263/
Not only can you see Russia from Alaska, you can see Alaska from Russia
Good point there...
Be cautious Jaybro, some day you risk to win elections. :)
Right. Namely, I stay within the geopolitical and historical context. You don't, and that's why I don't agree.
I see your geopolitical and historical context. Good luck with it.
However, the pathologic dimensions of your hatred are remarkable. In comparison with your train of thoughts the Right Sector looks like an innocent gang...
Comparing Russia with Nazi Germany and Putin with Hitler can be dismissed as russophobic rhetoric. You are in good company with Hillary Clinton. However even Hillary had to whitewash her statement later. So far so good.
But this:
This was the moment to protect the country, to give battle orders to Ukrainian troops in Crimea and push Russians back to the base. Why this should have been done? Because the new government had to show that it's in power now and is serious about keeping Russians at the base where they belong. With armed conflict erupting, the West would not be able to stand idly by any more and would be forced to take a real stance instead of turning the blind eye.
Some of the Ukrainian units in Crimea might have obeyed the orders of the self-proclaimed 'leadership' whereas others might have not.
What next?
Should have loyal Ukrainian military in Crimea start fighting pro-Russian militias or/and Russian troops in order to keep Crimea despite the will of the vast majority of its inhabitants? Fine.
What next?
Send Ukrainian troops into Crimea and fight pro-Russian militias and the Russian troops stationed there? Fine.
What next?
Declare war and ask the NATO for help? Fine.
What next?
Start WWIII?
Hey, you are even ahead of Victoria Nuland. Not only FUCK THE EU but FUCK THE WORLD.
All this only to pacify your sick mind for a short time? Only for a short time because even assumed you would survive WWIII, it won't be very funny. Not even for you.
Democracy hits Ukraine (http://rt.com/news/ukraine-forced-resignation-nationalism-674/)
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!
Ukraine is of moderate importance to the US, but huge importance to EUrope. EU and the Ukraine would benefit greatly increased trade and cooperation (and a less dysfunctional Ukraine at their border).
Whether there are more similarities between Putin and Hitler remain to be seen. The worry is, as ersi points out, that a similar pattern to the creeping annexation/invasions of Hitler will be enacted. Whatever one thinks of the validity of the "interim government" in The Ukraine, the fact remains that Putin's Russia has intervened in the affairs of another country and is now in the process of annexing part of the territory.
Personally I don't have too much faith in the approach of the leaders of any country just now, I guess we will only find that out after the fact. Are the measures being put in place by the US and the EU going to repatriate the Crimea? I don't think so. Are they going to make matters worse? Of course they are. Did Putin do the right thing? No, of course not.
Actually I think Putin has been surprisingly simple minded. Or maybe cynically mendacious since it's clear that the annexation sits well with the Russian population (although I note not all) and this will help him go on, and on, and on in power. He could have waited and sooner or later, the Crimea issue would have fallen into his lap. instead he has precipitated the World into a very dangerous situation.
I don't see the US and the EU following the exact same paths on this one for very long, as Jax points out perspectives are different, but it will take time for Russia to regain / earn trust in its commitment to international agreements. Maybe it will take a change in Russian leadership before that can happen. Meanwhile damage will be done all round.
Krake, thus far I have gathered that your central thesis is "Fuck EU. It's America's fault what Russia does." How do you support this? I see that historical evidence matters nothing to you. What matters then? Hatred for America? How do you justify this?
You are right that I hate Russia. But I don't hate blindly. I am suspicious of Russians for good reasons stemming from living historical memory. Note that it's living memory, so it's not very historical actually, and definitely it's not pathological. It's common sense to have history as guideline. By extension, I hate all countries with imperial ambitions, including the United States, and I would like to see some forces to keep such ambitions under control, even if the forces in question be themselves against each other. Whereas in your case I see absolutely no rhyme or reason in your starting position and no guideline to your aims either. You make no sense from beginning to end. You are simply praising Russia for annexation well done.
I agree actually. The annexation is well performed indeed. Russians struck at the right moment: Olympics on one hand (maximum number of foreign nationals and officials in a vulnerable position) and Ukraine at its weakest on the other - the EU proposal rejected and the president powerless amidst of riots. Now, it's common sense that this is not an accident. It takes a considerable degree of calculation to fit the attack this way. So it should be self-evident that there's nothing accidental in Crimea's annexation. Russia was waiting for this chance all along.
Certainly US/EU had their part in the events, but whatever US/EU had in mind to achieve, they got fooled and Russia got the upper hand. Why do you irrationally laugh out the one side and, equally irrationally, defend whatever the other side is doing is beyond me. For me there's a right way to do things and a wrong way, and both East and West are wrong here. Plus you have completely forgotten the people of Ukraine who have fallen between the events. No perspective, no guideline, no rhyme or reason.
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!
Ukraine is of moderate importance to the US,
If you mean moderate
economic importance, then I agree.
Why would the USA invest more than a billion over the years for a regime change in the Ukraine? Human kindness?
Many countries where the USA has military bases is of moderate economic importance to the USA.
but huge importance to EUrope. EU and the Ukraine would benefit greatly increased trade and cooperation.
Nonetheless incomparable with the benefit of greatly increased trade and cooperation between Russia and the EU.
It would heve been a win-win situation (which Russia hoped for since the fall of the Berlin wall) for the EU and Russia.
What Russia got instead were new military bases in its neighborhood...
That's where geostratecic interests of the USA come into play. A divided self-absorbed Europe is a more convenient ally to deal with than a self-reliant one...
The EU isn't going to mess with Putin. The reason? Oil and gas imports.
Russia, the world’s largest oil producer, exported $160 billion worth of crude, fuels and gas-based industrial feedstocks to Europe and the U.S. in 2012.
You are right that I hate Russia.
I appreciate this honest statement. I mean it!
Since we already made clear our positions which differ for whatever reason, I'll stop arguing with you on this issue.
IMHO, it makes little sense, neither for me nor for you. :coffee:
The EU isn't going to mess with Putin. The reason? Oil and gas imports.
The EU is already messing with Putin and not only since the Maidan events.
What the EU isn't going to do is to commit suicide.
You are right that I hate Russia.
I appreciate this honest statement. I mean it!
Since we already made clear our positions which differ for whatever reason, I'll stop arguing with you on this issue.
IMHO, it makes little sense, neither for me nor for you. :coffee:
Fifty years of Russian occupation can do that to a person.
it will take time for Russia to regain / earn trust in its commitment to international agreements. Maybe it will take a change in Russian leadership before that can happen. Meanwhile damage will be done all round.
Why are you so pessimistic?
After all other countries starting a war based on fabricated lies managed to regain/earn trust in their commitment to international law in a relative short time.
Fifty years of Russian occupation can do that to a person.
Agreed.
BTW, did you know that one of Putin's brothers succombed during the siege of Leningrad?
Or that unlike some of our closest Western friends Russia didn't oppose the Reunification?
Or that Putin is speaking fluently German?
Weird world.
The EU isn't going to mess with Putin. The reason? Oil and gas imports.
That cuts both ways. Neither Norway nor Russia have enough LNG or pipeline capacity to freely sell their gas on the global market. The EU is a major source of Russian gas money, money the government needs. Disruptions, or talk of disruptions, hurt both parties badly, and both will go to great lengths to keep oil and gas out of any other disagreements they might have with each other.
That's where geostratecic interests of the USA come into play. A divided self-absorbed Europe is a more convenient ally to deal with than a self-reliant one...
It so happens that the exact same divided EU is also more convenient to deal with for Russia. Just like the United States who prefers separate agreements with the several member countries of EU instead of dealing with EU as a unity, Russia does the same. Have you not noticed how Russia plays the energy games with Germany specifically over the heads of everyone else in between, war machinery games with France specifically, and pulls the economic rug from under the Baltic countries and Finland from time to time with the ever-changing customs and border transport regulations that are fine-tuned for specific strategic goods of the neighbouring countries, not the first-rate members? Russia divides the EU as calculatedly as US does, and EU - particularly the "old" members - let themselves be puppeteered as moronically as with US.
You are right that I hate Russia.
I appreciate this honest statement. I mean it!
Since we already made clear our positions which differ for whatever reason, I'll stop arguing with you on this issue.
That's kinda disappointing. First, my position has actually not so much to do with hatred, but more with historical memory, which - incidentally but for obvious reasons - happens to involve hatred. And second, you did not make your position clear by any means. By that I mean precisely the reasons behind the position, those remain disappointingly non-existent. In my view, there's no position without reasons for the position. Well, I know, far from everyone is logical in this world and I must live with it, but, on the other hand, I am utterly logical and the world must live with it.
Well, I know, far from everyone is logical in this world and I must live with it, but, on the other hand, I am utterly logical and the world must live with it.
You may be fooling yourself. Are you sure you're not just reacting to past events?
Democracy hits Ukraine (http://rt.com/news/ukraine-forced-resignation-nationalism-674/)
RT!..:faint:
:zzz:
You are right that I hate Russia. But I don't hate blindly. I am suspicious of Russians for good reasons stemming from living historical memory.
There are Russians and Russians! :)
O'k, count me a Cactus.:cheers:
(which Russia hoped for since the fall of the Berlin wall)
Here you seem to reveal that you mix up entities.
Russia is an ambiguous contrivance (as most if not every country is), and is homogeneous neither synchronically nor diachronically.
Here you seem to reveal that you mix up entities.
Russia is an ambiguous contrivance (as most if not every country is), and is homogeneous neither synchronically nor diachronically.
Simply put, you can trust Josh. I don't, but you can.
You may be fooling yourself. Are you sure you're not just reacting to past events?
You mean it would be better to go out and invade
somewhere instead? Past events are what we are reacting to, otherwise it wouldn't be a reaction.
I'm guessing here that there are Russians and there are Russians means much the same as there's the United States and there's the United States. In both cases, the people are probably a good sort. The governments on the other hand--- not so much.
I'm guessing here that there are Russians and there are Russians means much the same as there's the United States and there's the United States. In both cases, the people are probably a good sort. The governments on the other hand--- not so much.
Michael, :lol:!
You see, people create governments - not that the latter come from Mars or any other place within GGG coverage.:)
And you know what?
There are people - and there are people: those who create governments are more. Much more than the others...
Wasn't able to get onfor the last day or so and now catching up. Putin and Hitler is just plain stupid.
I watched an interview on the BBC the other night quite late on and the interviewer Andrew Neil who is a dogmatic and arrogant so-and-so. One of the guests was a journalist from The Telegraph who took Neil on about time someone did.Neil was obviously livid at being contradicted and he was as greatly bias as most media clowns have been The reporter had been to Russia for years and reported on matters and he was right in saying the country had vastly changed from the days of the USSR. At no time has Putin said he is ready to invade and the Russian troops are there by agreement because Ukraine got big bucks for the lease. The propaganda from politicians in the West has been scandalous and full of lies, distortions and anything the Kiev rump claims is Gospel.
Within the last week 2 Russian unarmed protesters in the street were gunned down outside an extrem efascist office in the east of Ukraine, intimidations also going on in the east. The self proclaimed acting Prime Minister has repeatedly recanted public things he has said and has no power not his would-be government. It was a rightist cabal encouraged by the EEC and America and boy did the West make those neo-Nazi thugs become heroes. So an illegal; coup against a democratic government is okay but a referendum is not? If the West supports it then everything is fine and dandy but if not expect everything to be heaped on you. No a whole fleet of brand new lorries have been stolen from a company about to ship them. No compensation just the company told they would be taken over by the Ukraine National Guard. We can guess who will make the mainstay of that lot up as the military are in a state. Elsewhere a Vodka plant was attacked by a mob of extremists. The police called as the plant had a warning as the mob asembel but the police did not respond. When eventually they were called again they came up, stood and did nothing. But as I pointed out, Russia will not be treated like everywhere else and good luck to them and Putin. As long as we think we are the only ones to decide what is right and no opportunity for a different view we will go on having stupid situations.
Ukraine will default very soon. The so-called government has not control and the ne-Nazis have already stated they will not give up arms. Indeed now arms are being smuggled in clandestinely or have been stolen from Ukrainian military places where moral is at rock bottom. Ukraine is fallin apart not because of Putin nor Russia but because of the extremists who hijackled the Kiev rally lot and they only control a rump of the country. Europe and America knows only too well with dozens of fascist MP's and increasing influence the Kiev "government" is a frace with little control about to go financially belly-up. However they have got themselves in a corner and waffling on about sanctions and increasing them.
This in itself is another flawed "morality." The USA stumbling along with trillions which are increasing in it's debts the EEC financially in a mess. Crimea is now back where it has always wanted to be and good luck to it as they would not have been safe staying in the midden Ukraine has become.
On another note, I think it interesting that Russia is imperially "lifting weights". It reminds me of my younger days when the propaganda was always about being in competition with Russia. They were our enemy and drove us to be better simultaneously.
The question I have to ask is will Russia have the economy to back their imperial interests. We have the world's reserve currency in our back pocket whilst they have naught but the Ruble. From an article I read, their economy looks to grown only 1% this year.
Imperialists have a rough go of it with a shite economy like that. Heck, ours is only projected to grow 2.7%, IIRC.
Putin = KGB..........'nuf said.
Well, I know, far from everyone is logical in this world and I must live with it, but, on the other hand, I am utterly logical and the world must live with it.
You may be fooling yourself. Are you sure you're not just reacting to past events?
No, I'm not just reacting. I am comparing past events with the present based on certain characteristics. This is called comparative analysis. In politology, when you do
not do this,
then you are fooling yourself.
The question I have to ask is will Russia have the economy to back their imperial interests.
Russian economy stands on raw materials and basic goods. They suck at all finer industry and more advanced processing and services. So, I'd say as long as they go for places that have immediate natural wealth, they are on solid ground. Ukraine is a perfect choice in this sense.
In terms of realpolitik, Russia's behaviour is completely rational here. It's not ethical or legal, but they are picking up a treasure that is simply lying there and that nobody else wants. And nobody is stopping either. The latest news seem to indicate that nobody is even watching any more.
I reckon Mr Howie has just his comma button broken. What do you think?
[whisper=ersi]"news" is singular![/whisper]
[whisper=ersi]"news" is singular![/whisper]
News is like sheep. There's no newses and there's no sheepses.
Not at all: the words in your example belong to different classes - "news" being UNCOUNTABLE.
http://www.grammaring.com/nouns-with-a-plural-form-and-a-singular-meaning
http://www.grammaring.com/the-difference-between-countable-and-uncountable-nouns
I reckon Mr Howie has just his comma button broken.
Among other things.
Not at all: the words in your example belong to different classes - "news" being UNCOUNTABLE.
Then news is like shit. Some people are deep in it and some are full of it.
Not at all: the words in your example belong to different classes - "news" being UNCOUNTABLE.
Then news is like shit. Some people are deep in it and some are full of it.
I recognize that. It's from
Mark 3: 1.
We know that Crimea is a done deal, closed, c'est fini, shut the window!
But what if something unforeseen happens and Russian troops enter eastern Ukraine and shooting breaks out?
Mr. Glasgow will blame the US, the EU and Cameron in that order, but what about the rest of you?
But what if something unforeseen happens and Russian troops enter eastern Ukraine and shooting breaks out?
Could you give examples for such unforeseen scenarios?
Cui bono? :devil:
Russia? Putin? Ukrainian people? Europe?
It wouldn't be for the first time a region gets destabilized on purpose, however I hope that it won't come so far.
But what if something unforeseen happens and Russian troops enter eastern Ukraine and shooting breaks out?
:devil:
Russia? Putin? Ukrainian people? Europe?
It wouldn't be for the first time a region gets destabilized on purpose, however I hope that it won't come so far.
Cui bono? Germany. It would give Merkel an opportunity to show her balls.
I'm sure it won't. Just poking around for reactions.
BBC Sussex says 'Russians stormed ~something~'. War?.. ???
BBC Sussex says 'Russians stormed ~something~'. War?.. ???
It's Russians taking over Ukrainian bases, still in Crimea http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26698754
Shooting and explosions have been heard as Russian troops backed by armoured vehicles stormed a Ukrainian airbase in Crimea.
The storming followed an ultimatum by the Russians to surrender.
The Belbek base commander earlier told the few dozen troops still there to shoot in the air if they were attacked. He said he had been waiting for days for orders from Kiev but told the BBC that none had been issued.
We know that Crimea is a done deal, closed, c'est fini, shut the window!
But what if something unforeseen happens and Russian troops enter eastern Ukraine and shooting breaks out?
Mr. Glasgow will blame the US, the EU and Cameron in that order, but what about the rest of you?
This was still in Crimea, what was clearly America's fault and not aggression from Russia.
(Reuters) - Russian troops forced their way into a Ukrainian airbase in Crimea with armored vehicles, automatic fire and stun grenades on Saturday, injuring a Ukrainian serviceman and detaining the base's commander for talks.
This is an embryo of an idea, but Putin isn't the Russian Hitler. He's Mussolini. Far Right, drawing admiration from American conservatives. And then, the truth becomes known as he starts picking on small countries in an effort to rebuild a dead empire. First Georgia, now the Ukraine (not geographically small but the pro-Russian Yanukovych left the country militarily small and incapable of defending itself.) Of course, on Mussolini's case, it was Ethiopia.
As a side note, some Liberals are noting the GOP's hypocrisy in the situation. They didn't complain when it was South Ossetia and Bush was President, but now Obama's president and its all his fault.
You have a real nerve there Smileyfaze terror supporter. You have long outdone Russia in both the USSR and the more modern and wider Russia today when it come to such organisations. The CIA is high in the stakes of undermining, creating coups and murderous stuff so need no lessons from you.
As for the weird Mussolini stuff there is a backhanded compliment in that if we want to muse. That is that Musslonit produced a better Italy than the shambles before him and since. Benito wasn't interested in expanding his dogma overt the world like some we can think of either!
The base takeovers in Crimea is an interesting matter. Crimea is back where it wants to be and the Ujrainian military should have been gone or made preparations to be so. They weren't and the commanders locally were given NO orders from Kiev and a Colonel has already stated that in a television interview. He did seem rather demoralised by it all. The shotting was obviouls skywards as a kind of warning just in case and in the whole incident only one person injured. Contrasts completely from the criminals in Kiev that we the West supported. Ignoring the fact that it was obviously a terror lot that did the shooting in the square and not the unarmed police.
Because the Referendum was in a majority Russian area we have moaned about it being illegal because the illegal government in Kiev says so! How ridiculous is that one? It was the Crimea parliament which voted to have it but that is warped into being illegal and the Kiev illegality by a rump as legal. you couldn't make this up. Trouble is that if the West led by DC thinks it has the sole right to declare on rights, sovereignty and such and no-one else and will even find ways of bending UN resolutions or even ignoring them. Had Crimea been in a different corner and tremendously US-lined Obama and that dumbell, Kerry would haave been clapping their hands.
Europe is not completely united and Germany does have less than publicconcerns (understandably). Our politicians have been lying and the media fed the lies. Their is no balanced reporting and how many news stations carried that revealing telephone chat between the Estonian Foreign Minster and the op EEC woman a Baroness from GB?? It is also ok for the USA to send a warship to paddle about the Black Sea to "look after US interests." Funny that word 'interests' comes up in every war it starts. Anyone else claiming that word is somehow automatically in error. Now the smugs in the West are yakking on about the effect on Russia and getting at not using Russian oil (small wonder the Germans are worried the amount they use) but in hard terms oiol makes up for only 15% of it's economy unlike a decade ago so Western liars are deliberately working out of date.
Now more and more concern is erupting in eastern Ukraine NOT because of Russia/Putin but the Kiev rump that is making things awkward for them. They supported the previous democratic elected and fair situation and now dictated too by that rump which is heavily infiltrated by neo-Nazis and not very mice people at all. Kiev is making Ukraine destbilised and much of the industry and commerce is in the east so must have a death wish. Demands are being made for local referendums but they have no leadership or situation like Crimea. So if the western Ukraine aided by it;s Nazis wants to be in Europe and the east of the country where the industry is how is that overcome. One other tjhing that is certain is that the gradual rise of far rightists in Europe will be greatly helped by the illegal fiasco in Kiev.
Crimea is fortunate in getting out before things fall apart and the West has to huff and bluff having helped the Ukrainian disaster.
Are you still going on about rights and stuff?
Howie tells us "Because the Referendum was in a majority Russian area we have moaned about it being illegal because the illegal government in Kiev says so! How ridiculous is that one." It's not as large of majority as the media would have us believe, at 58%. At the rate the Ukrainian and Tatar percentage was increasing, in 10 years or less it would have not even been majority Russian. I still call "Bullshit!" on the referendum. It's illegal because it's fraudulent, get it? Without the Russian invasion and a more believable outcome, there would be no problem.
Being called Mussolini is not a compliment. It also means state-run press (such as RT, which enjoyed popularity among American conservatives who blissfully unaware that they were basically reading Pravda Reincrarnated) and limits of freedom of the press in independent media.
"Trouble is that if the West led by DC thinks it has the sole right to declare on rights, sovereignty and such and no-one else and will even find ways of bending UN resolutions or even ignoring them." No, it's that Russia shit all over another nation's sovereignty. The Ukraine was trying to put itself back together and here comes Puti-kins intentionally destabilising the region.
"Their is no balanced reporting and how many news stations carried that revealing telephone chat between the Estonian Foreign Minster and the op EEC woman a Baroness from GB?? It is also ok for the USA to send a warship to paddle about the Black Sea to "look after US interests." What balance are you looking for? The Ukraine did nothing to Russia and wasn't persecuting Russians. Maybe you read a Russian side of the story from state-owned Russian media that makes Fox News look like the very model of journalistic integrity? Putie has no excuse. How is this hard?
You have a real nerve there Smileyfaze.........(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mysmiley.net%2Fimgs%2Fsmile%2Fsign%2Fsign0035.gif&hash=8c674ae23eaeee63ea5d4d4baadccf2b" rel="cached" data-hash="8c674ae23eaeee63ea5d4d4baadccf2b" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0035.gif)(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mysmiley.net%2Fimgs%2Fsmile%2Fsign%2Fsign0040.gif&hash=c6d0a5373d13c163fbe02906b065d2a5" rel="cached" data-hash="c6d0a5373d13c163fbe02906b065d2a5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0040.gif)(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mysmiley.net%2Fimgs%2Fsmile%2Fsign%2Fsign0046.gif&hash=5c0e290604e68dea9ba29e6cf9a581fb" rel="cached" data-hash="5c0e290604e68dea9ba29e6cf9a581fb" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0046.gif)(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mysmiley.net%2Fimgs%2Fsmile%2Fsign%2Fsign0035.gif&hash=8c674ae23eaeee63ea5d4d4baadccf2b" rel="cached" data-hash="8c674ae23eaeee63ea5d4d4baadccf2b" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0035.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/Read%20the%20paper_smile28.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/Read%20the%20paper_smile28.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/reading.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/darkevil.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/darkevil.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/offtopic.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/offtopic.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/shots.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/shots.gif) It is also ok for the USA to send a warship to paddle about the Black Sea to "look after US interests."....... (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/violin4qi3.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/AcidTrip01.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/smokindope002.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/dopedoinlines01.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/blowjob003.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/little-rocking-monkey.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/chillpillsmilefc7.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/captianboat.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/olemantellsvl0.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/pope.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/Screamer02.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/Screamer02.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/thumbs/Flyboy09.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cray.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/BlaBlaBlaBla.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/koolaid.gif) Now the smugs in the West are yakking on about the effect on Russia and getting at not using Russian oil (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/koolaid.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/JerkOFF.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/JerkOFF.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/JerkOFF.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/HeadSlap.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/LOL%20mouth%20008.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/LOL%20mouth%20008.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cclown03.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hitler002.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/laughing6.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/flasher005.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/flasher005.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/muslim008.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/bj007.gif) Crimea is fortunate..... 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(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/imthinkin6.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/yawn.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/nocomment0.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/sleepingZzzzz.gif)
It's not as large of majority as the media would have us believe, at 58%. At the rate the Ukrainian and Tatar percentage was increasing, in 10 years or less it would have not even been majority Russian. I still call "Bullshit!" on the referendum. It's illegal because it's fraudulent, get it? Without the Russian invasion and a more believable outcome, there would be no problem.
Math for elementary school students:
- Crimea referendum voter turnout 83%
- Ethnic Russians 58% at the ballots
- Non Ethnic Russians 25% at the ballots
- Votes for joining the Russian Federation 96%
The referendum was triggered by the coup d'état which took place in Kiev.
Nobody was forced to take part at the referendum. If so voter turnout would have been 100% instead of 83%.
The vast majority of non ethnic Russians who took part at the referendum voted for joining the Russian Federation.
Crimea's landslide vote was expected and didn't came as a surprise, not even for those rejecting it.
Alea iacta est.
It's not as large of majority as the media would have us believe, at 58%. At the rate the Ukrainian and Tatar percentage was increasing, in 10 years or less it would have not even been majority Russian. I still call "Bullshit!" on the referendum. It's illegal because it's fraudulent, get it? Without the Russian invasion and a more believable outcome, there would be no problem.
Math for elementary school students:
- Crimea referendum voter turnout 83%
- Ethnic Russians 58% at the ballots
- Non Ethnic Russians 25% at the ballots
- Votes for joining the Russian Federation 96%
The referendum was triggered by the coup d'état which took place in Kiev.
Nobody was forced to take part at the referendum. If so voter turnout would have been 100% instead of 83%.
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Reports like this do not only concern Crimea, but all elections in Russia. It's absolutely normal. It's the way democracy works, as they say. "You, the people, voted for it, and we respect your wish and thank you for the mandate."
Nobody understands geniuses! Putin has been sponsoring a new fundamental research, which yielded in a groundbreaking DISCOVERY that the number of 'percents' in a whole actually is much more than 100 (or even maybe flexible!).
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua/) your only source?
BTW, just wondering if you are a sympathizer of the Tea Party :)
The Gateway Pundit:
Jim Hoft is active in the Tea Party and was the associate producer of Hating Breitbart.
From that site:
At the end of last year, the voting population of Sevastopol was 385,462. This tailored to the children who did not have the right to vote. 474,137 – 385,462 = 88,675 people accidentally appeared in Sevastopol to vote during the referendum. 474 137/385 462 * 100 = 123% of Sevastopol voted for entry into Russia.
Perhaps the answer is that some of Sevastopol's voters are allowed to vote more than once. Or, better yet, the Russian troops stationed there acquired voting rights.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsmileys.emoticonsonly.com%2Femoticons%2Fr%2Frussia-1591.gif&hash=80dd3ea380f0a90b3b413bffe873ac1d" rel="cached" data-hash="80dd3ea380f0a90b3b413bffe873ac1d" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/r/russia-1591.gif)
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua/) your only source?
As I said, it's not only about Crimea. You can find these things in Russian sources for all Russian elections. This is not a special case. It's a normal case. You can ask Josh, if you want some third opinion.
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua/) your only source?
As I said, it's not only about Crimea.
So you can't. Thanks.
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua/) your only source?
As I said, it's not only about Crimea.
So you can't. Thanks.
I will as soon as you tell me how you determine reliability of news sources. First: What makes Ukrainian Pravda questionable?
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Reports like this do not only concern Crimea, but all elections in Russia. It's absolutely normal. It's the way democracy works, as they say. "You, the people, voted for it, and we respect your wish and thank you for the mandate."
Referred document is in Ukrainian... Does it explain already everything or do you still need explanations?
Well, if explanations are still needed... Let's get back to the past to review how it all started.
97% of Crimea use Russian as their primary language. During years Ukrainian politicians talked about ukrainization and derussification. These talks made all Russian speakers doubtful about their future in Ukraine. When new group self-proclaimed themselves as government, first thing which they did was to cancel language law. This made Russian speakers even more doubtful.
So, to summarize: Crimea fought for their language, they got support from Russia, due to this support they were able to win, and now, when they already won, they create their most important document in... Ukrainian.
Official results of referendum in Sevastapol are available on site of Sevastopol City Council: http://sevsovet.com.ua/index.php/2011-06-30-23-44-03/12395-na-sessii-gorodskogo-soveta-utverzhdeny-rezultaty-obshchekrymskogo-referenduma-16-marta-2014-goda
The same results in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_referendum,_2014
Voter turnout: 89.5%
I will as soon as you tell me how you determine reliability of news sources. First: What makes Ukrainian Pravda questionable?
If official documents of Great Britain will be written in Ukrainian, what exactly will make those documents questionable?
Krake, I reckon the whole 'referendum' can be put on doubt. It's like with Poo-tin's "presidency" -- "everybody"'s talking about "the results" -- thus setting the trolley in front of the horse
(a Russian common metaphor for considering or doing things "through the arse").
Before anything else, a wise guy should ask if some procedure could have been considered viable from the very beginning: the word "PROCEDURE" is ALWAYS the key word when you're feeling like to consider living by law - a major cornerstone of democracy.
Actually, these figures were "normalised" after the fact as it is usually done in Russia http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2014/03/what-a-turnout-123-of-sevastopol-crimea-vote-for-merger-with-mother-russia/
Can you please give us at least a link to an official Crimean statement about the number of votes in Sevastopol or is the Ukrainian Pravda (http://www.pravda.com.ua/) your only source?
As I said, it's not only about Crimea.
So you can't. Thanks.
I will as soon as you tell me how you determine reliability of news sources. First: What makes Ukrainian Pravda questionable?
I reckon he didn't mean abstract reliability...
I think he meant that you should've backed some figures with a sourcelink to the "referendum-side".
So, to summarize: Crimea fought for their language, ...
Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.
Krake, I reckon the whole 'referendum' can be put on doubt.
I also think about it this way. When the whole referendum is illegitimate on several grounds, moved to an earlier date by unknown authorities in Crimea, or by authorities of as dubious legitimacy as those that are ruling Ukraine right now, and conducted under the watch of invaded army, then it's not a referendum in the first place and all arguments concerning any firgures are moot. Under these circumstances, "official" figures are as suspect as any other source. And this is normal in Russia.
This is my response to Sergey too.
Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.
Thus I can conclude you consider the Crimean majority socialists.
In the Greek~antiEU turmoil sense. Because you must be either an idiot (aka socialist) or dying from starvation right about now - or both - to oppose meaningful measures sensible for the future of your country.
Ersi, I believe he meant where that source had got the input data to calculate their sensation in the first place. I didn't take to proceed to THEIR source there, so I don't know if THAT OTHER source had any links to the official stats or not.
Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.
Thus I can conclude you consider the Crimean majority socialists.
In the Greek~antiEU turmoil sense. Because you must be either an idiot (aka socialist) or dying from starvation right about now - or both - to oppose meaningful measures sensible for the future of your country.
Average salary in Ukraine is $250/month, and IMF will reduce it further. For comparison: average salary in Russia is $850/month, and it grows. Interesting question: how many people will vote "no Russia, yes Ukraine" in this situation?
Of course, other factors may be important here too. Language policy, vision of history, interethnic relations -
in eyes of Eastern Ukraine Russia has obvious advantage here.
The only factor where advantage of Russia may be not clear is her political system. But we should remember that in this situation we compare Russia not to advanced European democracy. Comparison is done to corrupted and weak political system of Ukraine. What is better: Putin authoritarianism or permanent bordello in capital of country?
So, when Russia vs. Ukraine comparison is done - we have only one point where result is not obvious.
Not only for their language IMHO but the prospect of austerity that will be imposed by the IMF was an important factor as well.
Thus I can conclude you consider the Crimean majority socialists.
In the Greek~antiEU turmoil sense. Because you must be either an idiot (aka socialist) or dying from starvation right about now - or both - to oppose meaningful measures sensible for the future of your country.
You are aware about those meaningful measures. Are you?
Some of those meaningful measures sensible for the future imposed by the IMF floating around: pensions halved, gas prizes up to 100%, prizes for electricity up to 40%, lower wages, cuts for social spending, massive devaluation of the local currency, just to name a few of them.
You don't have to be neither socialist nor idiot to figure your living conditions for the next dacade...
Of course, not everybody will be affected, only the vast majority.
You don't have to be neither socialist nor idiot to figure your living conditions for the next dacade...
1. Me? No!:D
2. "The next decade" is not the future in terms of a country (especially that could apply to Greece - which can be considered THE most ancient in the entire Europen History).
You don't have to be neither socialist nor idiot to figure your living conditions for the next dacade...
1. Me? No!:D
2. "The next decade" is not the future in terms of a country (especially that could apply to Greece - which can be considered THE most ancient in the entire Europen History).
You might be an exception but people have to live in the present and not in a projected future. Wonder if you can grasp that. :headbang:
it's about Russia's ambitions to get back the borders of Soviet Union (or of Russian Empire, that makes about the same territory).
It's worse than that. Putin wants Alaska back, something that I support if Sarah Palin goes along as a part of the deal.
There is petition about Alaska already: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/alaska-back-russia/SFG1ppfN
It does not mention Sarah Palin, however.
...people have to live in the present...
Wonder if you can grasp that.
Exactly.
Of course it is a background. What it seems to me you don't is that that is exactly the cause of any socialism - which in turn, leads to the exactly opposite to what "people want" - but for the whole lot of further generations. Which future and which generations inherit the consequencies of those "immediate wants" in the form of an untreatable disease.
Full stop.
The Ukraine used to have the third largest stock of nuclear weapons, but they gave it up on the basis of inclusion of the Crimea in their country and the guarantee of their territorial integrity by the U.S., GB and Russia.
Really?:rolleyes:
That's reassuring! The only thing left is to regain the nukes!..:insane:
It's not as large of majority as the media would have us believe, at 58%. At the rate the Ukrainian and Tatar percentage was increasing, in 10 years or less it would have not even been majority Russian. I still call "Bullshit!" on the referendum. It's illegal because it's fraudulent, get it? Without the Russian invasion and a more believable outcome, there would be no problem.
Math for elementary school students:
- Crimea referendum voter turnout 83%
- Ethnic Russians 58% at the ballots
- Non Ethnic Russians 25% at the ballots
- Votes for joining the Russian Federation 96%
The referendum was triggered by the coup d'état which took place in Kiev.
Nobody was forced to take part at the referendum. If so voter turnout would have been 100% instead of 83%.
The vast majority of non ethnic Russians who took part at the referendum voted for joining the Russian Federation.
Crimea's landslide vote was expected and didn't came as a surprise, not even for those rejecting it.
Alea iacta est.
Politics for elementary school students: whenever an election is this loopsided, there's always fraud involved. Citing a high voter turnout does not negate the high probability that the ballots were stuffed.
To quibble about figures, the turnout of voters could not have been so high, as Ukrainians and Tatarians were opposed the referendum for obvious reasons. That's at least a fourth of the eligible population. But in general, why anyone thinks the referendum should have any meaning under the circumstances is beyond me.
To quibble about figures, the turnout of voters could not have been so high, as Ukrainians and Tatarians were opposed the referendum for obvious reasons.
During several recent weeks I've got information about situation in Ukraine from Russian media, Ukrainian media, Western media, and Crimean forums. All sources say the same: the only ethnic group which opposed referendum were Tatars. Their leaders decided to boycott referendum. The only experts who say that Ukrainians in Crimea opposed referendum are ersi and Sanguinemoon.
Will a call for a more robust British military presence in Germany send Russia a message?
Britain should make a “military statement” to Russia by retaining 3,000 soldiers in Germany in a reverse of planned defence cuts, the former head of the Army says on Monday.
Amid fears of further Kremlin land grabs in Ukraine, Lord Dannatt warns that with a “resurgent Russia” it is a poor time for the West to be “weak in resolve and muscle”.
He says in an article for The Telegraph that “greater military capability” must underpin diplomacy in crises such as those in Ukraine and Syria, and that maintaining a British presence in Germany would send that message.
That will make Mr. Putin think twice.
What the Western powers are thinking baffles me, but I baffle easily. Crimea is a done deal, so the West can find something else to occupy their collective minds.
Now, what's on the docket for Eastern Ukraine?
WASHINGTON (AP) — A top White House aide says it's possible that Russia could invade eastern Ukraine, and even U.S. military assistance would be unlikely to prevent it.
Deputy national security adviser Tony Blinken says Russia seems to be trying intimidate Ukrainians by massing thousands of troops along the border.
But Blinken also tells CNN's "State of the Union" that "it's possible they are preparing to move in."
Do you think that Obama will make yet one more
red line statement?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsaintpaulrepublicans.us%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F06%2FObamas-Red-lines.jpg&hash=e8d83556471e53e809efdfc3d36a0049" rel="cached" data-hash="e8d83556471e53e809efdfc3d36a0049" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://saintpaulrepublicans.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Obamas-Red-lines.jpg)
To quibble about figures, the turnout of voters could not have been so high, as Ukrainians and Tatarians were opposed the referendum for obvious reasons.
During several recent weeks I've got information about situation in Ukraine from Russian media, Ukrainian media, Western media, and Crimean forums. All sources say the same: the only ethnic group which opposed referendum were Tatars. Their leaders decided to boycott referendum. The only experts who say that Ukrainians in Crimea opposed referendum are ersi and Sanguinemoon.
Did the sources say "Tatars boycott the referendum" or "
only Tatars boycott the referendum"? You see, there's a difference. Anyway, here ERR in Crimea: Pro-Ukrainian Voters Boycotted Referendum (http://news.err.ee/v/politics/408c1783-6928-46bd-a74b-dd463838e919)
Anyway, here ERR in Crimea: Pro-Ukrainian Voters Boycotted Referendum (http://news.err.ee/v/politics/408c1783-6928-46bd-a74b-dd463838e919)
Kannel said voting was more active in polling stations in Russian-speaking areas.
According to Kyiv International Institute of Sociology 97% of Cirmea use Russian at home (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine). So, 97% of Crimea is Russian-speaking area, and hence, were more active in polling stations.
She said that many people have taken to the streets to celebrate the result, with bands playing music and people shouting.
Sure, everybody opposed referendum, and when it finally finished - they went to streets to celebrate it.
Sure, everybody opposed referendum, and when it finally finished - they went to streets to celebrate it.
You implied before that only Tatars oppose it. I can equally say that only Russians favour it. Minus Josh. He doesn't favour it.
What utter bunkum came from the USA woman on the UN Security Council. There she was talking about invasion attitudes, interfering with sovereignty, pressurising and all the rest of the usual Western tripe. This coming from her side and a country that has spent decades interfering across the world, unsettling States it couldn't initially coerce then find an excuse to attack them. The complete hypocrisy is overwhelming and then jimbro comes in with his usual very bias stuff. Look at your own corner boy. Trouble is that Russia is not rising up it is making it's independence very clear and the US and it's western controlled get the hump at not being able to dictate or do what they like anywhere else. For America to accuse Russia considering what it has done and still doing is so farcical and insulting intelligence.
Time after time Amercia uses the nonsense I mentioned of interfering over the globe because it thinks it has a special duty and right to do so and all for that old hoary "safeguarding our interests." No other modern nation can compete with the arrogance and political immorality of the USA. Russia has said it has no wish to be involved in invading Ukraine but that makes no difference to the idiots that run the DC corner. If it isn't them running the show or not conforming to their idea of the world you are beyond evil. Maybe someone can explain why America wants to be the worlds controller and stuff anyone else?
The only place that maintained a democratic system was in Crimea whilst the rest of Ukraine was taken over by a rump that couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. The West ignores that and the fact that a quarter of the Keiv "government" is extereme. The West has never been able to get to grips with the end of the USSR and the widening of Russia. It is a proud and patriotic land that does not have the imperial pretensions of the US and it is still good that there are a couple of places in the world that cannot be battered into line on false premise. Not only has the media been bias but actual governments and when an occasional journalist asks a representative at a press conference where certain information comes from they get brushed off.
Ukraine's only hope is a federal system and it better think seriously about all of it's people including those in the east of the country. As for that ballistic clown who is Prime Minister he has constantly changed his mind onNATO, Ukraine, Russia, EEC and even America. His rump caused the falling aprt of Ukraine not Russia which was giving aid and cheap power.The EEC is in no great position to dish out cash and some parts of it will be very niggled when it goes to someone outside of the thing and not them. Lastly, NATO should keep it's damn neb out of the matter as it is nothing to do with them.
Will a call for a more robust British military presence in Germany send Russia a message?
Britain should make a “military statement” to Russia by retaining 3,000 soldiers in Germany ...
WTF :irked:
Germans don't feel threatened by Russia.
The Brits should send their soldiers to Poland or even better in the Baltic ( Ersi will have a good sleep :zzz:), so they can be closer to the 'enemy' for sending messages.
BTW, the USA already has over 70 military establishments across Germany. :bug:
This is the highest number for a country in Europe, maybe even worldwide.
Quickie thought: If fraud in an election makes the election invalid, then we haven't had a valid election in decades.
What happened in the Crimean election is no less than what could have been expected, and with feeling running high as it did it just might be difficult to tell between a bogus "election" and the real thing.
Quickie thought: If fraud in an election makes the election invalid, then we haven't had a valid election in decades.
What happened in the Crimean election is no less than what could have been expected, and with feeling running high as it did it just might be difficult to tell between a bogus "election" and the real thing.
In Crimea, it's not (only) about fraud in the referendum, but that the referendum itself was a fraud. It should not have been moved to an earlier date. The authority that moved it was not an authority. The date was moved and the referendum carried out at gunpoint. Etc.
Edit: And why not compare Putin with Hitler when the annexation propaganda prior to the referendum was exactly based on invoking Nazi imagery?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.yle.fi%2Fuutiset%2Fukraina%2Farticle7131732.ece%2FALTERNATES%2Fw960%2FLKS%2B20140311%2Bsevastopol%2Bvaalit%2Bkrim.jpg&hash=8fc1da6e1220006f3e5475ba0b851b56" rel="cached" data-hash="8fc1da6e1220006f3e5475ba0b851b56" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/ukraina/article7131732.ece/ALTERNATES/w960/LKS+20140311+sevastopol+vaalit+krim.jpg)
That's how Nazi imagery looks like.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsusiemadrak.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2Fnazis-425x283.jpg&hash=58067b5fe255b0af2d57163f5b6565c5" rel="cached" data-hash="58067b5fe255b0af2d57163f5b6565c5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://susiemadrak.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/nazis-425x283.jpg) (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F03%2FNazisme-Ukraine-400x267.jpg&hash=a655a500c7f52a2acff8cb0acc60c0a1" rel="cached" data-hash="a655a500c7f52a2acff8cb0acc60c0a1" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Nazisme-Ukraine-400x267.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theblogmocracy.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FUkranian-Nazis-640x480.jpg&hash=eff3c3011c64d768b6e9eb5f317348a4" rel="cached" data-hash="eff3c3011c64d768b6e9eb5f317348a4" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.theblogmocracy.com/wp-content/uploads/Ukranian-Nazis-640x480.jpg) (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.indymedia.ie%2Fcache%2Fimagecache%2Flocal%2Fattachments%2Ffeb2014%2F460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_reversed_horizontal_wolfsangle_symbol_of_ukraine_far_rightsector_feb2014.jpg&hash=cb30b3f4500df39fdf6b0e4fbfd721e1" rel="cached" data-hash="cb30b3f4500df39fdf6b0e4fbfd721e1" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.indymedia.ie/cache/imagecache/local/attachments/feb2014/460_0___30_0_0_0_0_0_reversed_horizontal_wolfsangle_symbol_of_ukraine_far_rightsector_feb2014.jpg)
What utter bunkum came from the USA woman on the UN Security Council. There she was talking about invasion attitudes, interfering with sovereignty, pressurising and all the rest of the usual Western tripe. This coming from her side and a country that has spent decades interfering across the world, unsettling States it couldn't initially coerce then find an excuse to attack them. The complete hypocrisy is overwhelming and then jimbro comes in with his usual very bias stuff. Look at your own corner boy. Trouble is that Russia is not rising up it is making it's independence very clear and the US and it's western controlled get the hump at not being able to dictate or do what they like anywhere else. For America to accuse Russia considering what it has done and still doing is so farcical and insulting intelligence.
Time after time Amercia uses the nonsense I mentioned of interfering over the globe because it thinks it has a special duty and right to do so and all for that old hoary "safeguarding our interests." No other modern nation can compete with the arrogance and political immorality of the USA. Russia has said it has no wish to be involved in invading Ukraine but that makes no difference to the idiots that run the DC corner. If it isn't them running the show or not conforming to their idea of the world you are beyond evil. Maybe someone can explain why America wants to be the worlds controller and stuff anyone else?
The only place that maintained a democratic system was in Crimea whilst the rest of Ukraine was taken over by a rump that couldn't run a piss up in a brewery. The West ignores that and the fact that a quarter of the Keiv "government" is extereme. The West has never been able to get to grips with the end of the USSR and the widening of Russia. It is a proud and patriotic land that does not have the imperial pretensions of the US and it is still good that there are a couple of places in the world that cannot be battered into line on false premise. Not only has the media been bias but actual governments and when an occasional journalist asks a representative at a press conference where certain information comes from they get brushed off.
Ukraine's only hope is a federal system and it better think seriously about all of it's people including those in the east of the country. As for that ballistic clown who is Prime Minister he has constantly changed his mind onNATO, Ukraine, Russia, EEC and even America. His rump caused the falling aprt of Ukraine not Russia which was giving aid and cheap power.The EEC is in no great position to dish out cash and some parts of it will be very niggled when it goes to someone outside of the thing and not them. Lastly, NATO should keep it's damn neb out of the matter as it is nothing to do with them.
One takes it that you have moved to Moscow?
- "...and all of the usual Western tripe".
What happened in the Crimean election is no less than what could have been expected, and with feeling running high as it did it just might be difficult to tell between a bogus "election" and the real thing.
Rod Blagojevich ring a bell mjm?
One takes it that you have moved to Moscow?
- "...and all of the usual Western tripe".
Rj is the only foreigner on Putin's staff of cronies you recent Mississippi graduate over the pond.
What the Western powers are thinking baffles me, but I baffle easily. Crimea is a done deal, so the West can find something else to occupy their collective minds.
There are Western powers of different weights and with different interests.
Done deal or not, it has to be kept hot as long as it can serve someone's interests...
Just an example:
The USA is pushing hard for its Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership.
There is a lot of concern and scepticism in Europe regarding the TTIP because of the negative impact it might have by overruling national and EU legislation.
Corporation Carte Blanche (http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/criticism-grows-over-investor-protections-in-transatlantic-trade-deal-a-945107.html)
Economic ties and partnership with Russia is seen by the US as a threat, not only because of the TTIP.
Germany alone had 2012 a trade volume of 370 billion euros with Russia resuling in 500,000 (300,000 + 200,000) jobs.
Not to mention that German exports have covered almost all gas and oil imports from Russia.
Cui bono a divided, weakened and Russian hostile Europe?
Take your pick :)
One takes it that you have moved to Moscow?
- "...and all of the usual Western tripe".
Or Moscow has moved to him?:)
Imagine "the Russian authorities" helping organise the independence referendum? 97% will vote to join Russia, huh? :lol:
If I didn't know better, I'd swear that RJH is a Soviet apparatchik. He sounds like it at times, with a distinct hatred of all things American and a fair amount of bile for the rest of the West into the bargain.
If I didn't know better, I'd swear that RJH is a Soviet apparatchik. He sounds like it at times, with a distinct hatred of all things American and a fair amount of bile for the rest of the West into the bargain.
It's easy to see why, though.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_bm_lKSSRYNo%2FS-n9ezjXbqI%2FAAAAAAAABxU%2FI9pPFmyd7-g%2Fs1600%2Ftumblr_l1d0sltrC71qaq0a5o1_400.gif&hash=11fe75b39a761e81eff6bc061997531f" rel="cached" data-hash="11fe75b39a761e81eff6bc061997531f" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_bm_lKSSRYNo/S-n9ezjXbqI/AAAAAAAABxU/I9pPFmyd7-g/s1600/tumblr_l1d0sltrC71qaq0a5o1_400.gif)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsusiemadrak.com%2Fwordpress%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F02%2Fnazis-425x283.jpg&hash=58067b5fe255b0af2d57163f5b6565c5" rel="cached" data-hash="58067b5fe255b0af2d57163f5b6565c5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://susiemadrak.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/nazis-425x283.jpg)
Am I the only one who's immediately reminded of this?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theweeklings.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FRAD-Duke-Edwards-bumper-sticker.jpg&hash=1faf1d89ee2bdc458e5e945d1e5ca516" rel="cached" data-hash="1faf1d89ee2bdc458e5e945d1e5ca516" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.theweeklings.com/wp-content/uploads/RAD-Duke-Edwards-bumper-sticker.jpg) (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/David_Duke)
Am I the only one who's immediately reminded of this?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theweeklings.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FRAD-Duke-Edwards-bumper-sticker.jpg&hash=1faf1d89ee2bdc458e5e945d1e5ca516" rel="cached" data-hash="1faf1d89ee2bdc458e5e945d1e5ca516" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.theweeklings.com/wp-content/uploads/RAD-Duke-Edwards-bumper-sticker.jpg) (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/David_Duke)
If you vote, you vote for a crook.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.seppo.net%2Fcartoons%2Falbums%2Fcartoons%2Fglobal%2Fpoliticians%2FAmericaDumbestCriminal04.jpg&hash=449009aade798766ab079ea8e7eb21de" rel="cached" data-hash="449009aade798766ab079ea8e7eb21de" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.seppo.net/cartoons/albums/cartoons/global/politicians/AmericaDumbestCriminal04.jpg)
Well, Snowden told us about capabilities of NSA. But everything we know about capabilities of FSB is that they need permission of court to use SORM.
Very interesting talks were leaked from unknown source during all this situation. First it was fuck EU and $5 billion talk. Then it was (probably opposition) snipers talk. Now Tymoshenko talk.
http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/
Tymoshenko confirmed the authenticity of the conversation on Twitter, while pointing out that a section where she is heard to call for the nuclear slaughter of the eight million Russians who remain on Ukrainian territory was edited.
She tweeted “The conversation took place, but the '8 million Russians in Ukraine' piece is an edit. In fact, I said Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians. Hello FSB :) Sorry for the obscene language.”
What the Western powers are thinking baffles me, but I baffle easily. Crimea is a done deal, so the West can find something else to occupy their collective minds.
When a child misbehaves you ground him to make him not repeat his behaviour, not to undo what he's done.
What the Western powers are thinking baffles me, but I baffle easily. Crimea is a done deal, so the West can find something else to occupy their collective minds.
When a child misbehaves you ground him to make him not repeat his behaviour, not to undo what he's done.
And if the child refuses to be grounded?
Just curious.
One takes it that you have moved to Moscow?
- "...and all of the usual Western tripe".
Rj is the only foreigner on Putin's staff of cronies you recent Mississippi graduate over the pond.
Got it. :cheers:
@mjmsprt40: Agreed.
What the Western powers are thinking baffles me, but I baffle easily. Crimea is a done deal, so the West can find something else to occupy their collective minds.
When a child misbehaves you ground him to make him not repeat his behaviour, not to undo what he's done.
And if the child refuses to be grounded?
Just curious.
Nobody in the G# club sees itself as a child. In international diplomacy, the child analogy is bound to invite war.
The only experts who say that Ukrainians in Crimea opposed referendum are ersi and Sanguinemoon.
On a side note:
According to Ukrainian sources, Kiev ordered the complete withdrawal of its troops from Crimea.
However not all will follow the order since half of them changed sides by joining the Russian army.
The only experts who say that Ukrainians in Crimea opposed referendum are ersi and Sanguinemoon.
On a side note:
According to Ukrainian sources, Kiev ordered the complete withdrawal of its troops from Crimea.
However not all will follow the order since half of them changed sides by joining the Russian army.
Josh isn't sure what he'll do until he figures out which way the wind is blowing. On the one hand, he supports Putin because Russian borscht is delicious; on the other hand, the borscht is better in western Ukraine.
http://natashaskitchen.com/2010/09/26/classic-russian-borscht-recipe/ (http://natashaskitchen.com/2010/09/26/classic-russian-borscht-recipe/)
http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/
Shufrych's press service flatly contradicted Tymoshenko, slamming the tape as fake. The press release reads "The conversation didn't take place," as quoted by korrespondent.net.
Who is lying?
Shufrych who claims that the conversation didn't take place?
Tymoshenko who confirmed the authenticity of the conversation but claims that some part of it was edited?
As it looks both of them are lying.
To quote a famous British actor, "Everybody lies!"
That "phone conversation" thing is interesting as she has said it was made. What she wanted to do with 8 million Russians living in the present Ukraine was telling. Her time as Prime Minister was hardly one of progress, honesty or much else.One of the leaders of the far right has been shot by Ukrainian police (nice to know they are still about). This is the same man seen on camera threatening and then attacking a younger member of the Procurator's office and again taking his knife and guns out adding that no-one would take them away and what he would do with the head of Kiev's security. However there are a number of these same neo-Nazis still in the stolen government. Crimea is a done deal and now currency is changing and taxes and increased pensions etc.
NATO should bug off and so to should the EEC as Ukraine is in neither. The Ukrainian "Prime Minister" has as said changed on things repeatedly. He has been seen condemning Russia then later saying something had to be worked out. Russian was to be banned as an official language then he changed and said in mainly Russian speaking areas it would be ok. He huffed at America then was all for it. Visas would be introduced with regard to Russia then realised how many worked over the order so that altered. On the EEC he wanted Ukraine in that and his countrymen all speaking English to be better integrated. Now he has backed off. Don't let us forget NATO where he was keen to be in it but then felt that would not be a wise move in the circumstanced red sock over in the Eternal City. If Kiev wants to keep Ukraine together they better get their act together.
On the matter of sanctions and ancillary things it is all pointless and well over the top. Coups are supported by the West when it suits it. As long as the revolution is in what it wants that is fine but if not it is immoral,. Humbug. We in the West can get away with pushing the world about but that there are a tiny handful of places that can tell it to sod off is a good thing. As jimbro says on the matter of lying that is a wide remit and open to anyone. As an independent nation Russia will not be controlled by Western domination imperialism and quite right too.
http://rt.com/news/tymoshenko-calls-destroy-russia-917/
Shufrych's press service flatly contradicted Tymoshenko, slamming the tape as fake. The press release reads "The conversation didn't take place," as quoted by korrespondent.net.
Who is lying?
Shufrych who claims that the conversation didn't take place?
Tymoshenko who confirmed the authenticity of the conversation but claims that some part of it was edited?
As it looks both of them are lying.
Tymoshenko may say true. For me logic of conversion makes more sense if she would say "Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians". After all, she always looked as reasonable politician.
To quote a famous British actor, "Everybody lies!"
"All the world's a stage, And all the men and women merely players"
:)
Tymoshenko may say true. For me logic of conversion makes more sense if she would say "Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians".
My logic tells me something else.
If Tymoshenko would have said "Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians" then Shufrych wouldn't had any reason to deny the conversation ;)
Tymoshenko may say true. For me logic of conversion makes more sense if she would say "Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians".
My logic tells me something else.
If Tymoshenko would have said "Russians in Ukraine – are Ukrainians" then Shufrych wouldn't had any reason to deny the conversation ;)
Yes, but in addition to this phrase there were many other phrases which show both of them in negative light. So, in any case he has reasons to deny conversation.
Obama is out amongst the guys he admires so much......his idols, the European Socialists. He's talking tough though. He's flexin' his muscle in front of Vlad. He's rallying all the Euro nations to answer the call to action, & then he drops the fact that he's downsizing his military, & that Europe needs to flex some of their own muscle this time.
As Gomer Pyle USMC would say....surprise, surprise, surprise!!!
Vlad busts a gut! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/big%20laugh%20007.gif)
Obama is out amongst the guys he admires so much......his idols, ...
You mean his idols he is eavesdropping?
He's rallying all the Euro nations to answer the call to action, ...
Not to answer the call but to make tha call.
His predecessor already fixed Iraq. Sir Obama fixed Afghanistan, Libya and thanks to our Saudi friends almost fixed Syria and Egypt.
He is a very kind person. :angel: But really, no need to fix Europe too. :worried:
However, he is a very busy statesman. :cool: Now he has to set up for his follower to fix (pivot to) Asia.
Keep tuned. :wait:
But really, no need to fix Europe too.
I didn't know that Europe was broken. How bad is the break? Is it worse than this?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F01675%2FKevin-The-Kestrel-_1675682c.jpg&hash=110c05ccdf903c9fb65aff7df5fdcd76" rel="cached" data-hash="110c05ccdf903c9fb65aff7df5fdcd76" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01675/Kevin-The-Kestrel-_1675682c.jpg)
Obama is out amongst the guys he admires so much......his idols, ...
You mean his idols he is eavesdropping?
Absolutely. Anybody that thinks that international surveillance doesn't, or never existed, is quite naive.
It's been an accepted fact of life in this small world for many, many years.
To also think that the surveillance only goes one way is the height of naivety!
He's rallying all the Euro nations to answer the call to action, ...
Not to answer the call but to make tha call.......
.....no need to fix Europe too. :worried:
Obama can't fix anything -- even if he wanted to.
He can't even fix a simple little dysfunctional healthcare website, small potatoes compared to the topic at hand, that affects the welfare of 1/6
th of the
entire United States economy --- the largest in the world.
Fix Europe, hell the Obama can't even fix downtown Detroit!!!!!
All Obama seems good at is painting
red lines that everyone just loves ta cross.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FuyD91gX.jpg&hash=9e2c7f2fbc984a132a4506db4dae4699" rel="cached" data-hash="9e2c7f2fbc984a132a4506db4dae4699" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/uyD91gX.jpg)
I didn't know that Europe was broken. How bad is the break? Is it worse than this?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.telegraph.co.uk%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F01675%2FKevin-The-Kestrel-_1675682c.jpg&hash=110c05ccdf903c9fb65aff7df5fdcd76" rel="cached" data-hash="110c05ccdf903c9fb65aff7df5fdcd76" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01675/Kevin-The-Kestrel-_1675682c.jpg)
Well, we have now a self-appointed ethic entity which decides when someone in the world is broken and if it needs some fixing.
The situation in the Ukraine is worse as you might think.
The danger of a civil war is looming. It's the price of fixing that Europe might have to pay for.
Setting up the fire und pouring some oil into it seems to be a successful formula. Iraq, Libya, Syria, ... to name just the recent ones.
Only to blame for are of course the Hitlers of the new American Century. Saddam, Gaddafi, Assad or Putin. The Hitler-list will be kept alive and up to date for further world healing activities.
One of the very few articles of The Spiegel which attempts a slightly more balanced view on the Ukraine: Kiews Regierung riskiert einen Bürgerkrieg (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kiews-regierung-ist-zum-scheitern-verurteilt-a-960461.html)
The article is not in English since it is not meant for international consumption.
A few forum members are familiar with German. GoogleTranslate (http://translate.google.com/) far from being accurate might be an option for those who aren't.
One of the very few articles of The Spiegel which attempts a slightly more balanced view on the Ukraine: Kiews Regierung riskiert einen Bürgerkrieg (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kiews-regierung-ist-zum-scheitern-verurteilt-a-960461.html)
The article is not in English since it is not meant for international consumption.
A few forum members are familiar with German. GoogleTranslate (http://translate.google.com/) far from being accurate might be an option for those who aren't.
I wouldn't be surprised if it showed up on Spiegel International today or tomorrow.
One of the very few articles of The Spiegel which attempts a slightly more balanced view on the Ukraine: Kiews Regierung riskiert einen Bürgerkrieg (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-kiews-regierung-ist-zum-scheitern-verurteilt-a-960461.html)
Articles like that started popping up lately, after weeks of hyping the new gang.
The article is not in English since it is not meant for international consumption.
A few forum members are familiar with German. GoogleTranslate (http://translate.google.com/) far from being accurate might be an option for those who aren't.
I wouldn't be surprised if this article, or others like it, show up in the English section. Wouldn't be the first time that they changed their tune, or allowed different writers to have different opinions / points of view etc..
This American hopes we, as a nation, have enough sense to stay out of it this time. We probably won't but one can always dream.
Given European attitudes, my opinion would be to stay out of it and let them fix their own messes.
Ukrainian court bans Russian TV broadcast (http://rt.com/news/ukraine-court-bans-russian-tv-245/)
The Ukrainian media watchdog claims that Russian information content is “threatening Ukraine’s national security, sovereignty and territorial integrity, promoting war, violence, cruelty, spreading interethnic and racial hostility, encouraging religious strife, encroaching on human rights and freedoms.”
If Russia Today is any indication, they're probably right.
If Russia Today is any indication, they're probably right.
Wonder why it takes so long for Western media to report about the ban?
Is the ban just a Hoax of Russia Today?
Wonder why it takes so long for Western media to report about the ban?
Is the ban just a Hoax of Russia Today?
You mean like yesterday (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/18262/Onrust-in-Oekraine/article/detail/1829132/2014/03/25/Oekraine-verbiedt-Russische-tv-zenders.dhtml), while the RT article you linked is dated today? :right:
Wonder why it takes so long for Western media to report about the ban?
Is the ban just a Hoax of Russia Today?
You mean like yesterday (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/18262/Onrust-in-Oekraine/article/detail/1829132/2014/03/25/Oekraine-verbiedt-Russische-tv-zenders.dhtml), while the RT article you linked is dated today? :right:
Nope. I mean the big Western media outlets. Try a Google search in English and see what you get.
Wonder why it takes so long for Western media to report about the ban?
Is the ban just a Hoax of Russia Today?
You mean like yesterday (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/18262/Onrust-in-Oekraine/article/detail/1829132/2014/03/25/Oekraine-verbiedt-Russische-tv-zenders.dhtml), while the RT article you linked is dated today? :right:
Nope. I mean the big Western media outlets. Try a Google search in English and see what you get.
Or in german for that matter. All I can find are either german articles from russian sources ( I didn't know they even did that ) or german sources speculating about a ban ( usually likening it to Putin's crackdown on anything criticizing the russian government )
Wonder why it takes so long for Western media to report about the ban?
Is the ban just a Hoax of Russia Today?
You mean like yesterday (http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/18262/Onrust-in-Oekraine/article/detail/1829132/2014/03/25/Oekraine-verbiedt-Russische-tv-zenders.dhtml), while the RT article you linked is dated today? :right:
Nope. I mean the big Western media outlets. Try a Google search in English and see what you get.
The BBC, two weeks ago (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26546083).
Nope. I mean the big Western media outlets. Try a Google search in English and see what you get.
This may surprise you, but we Dutch and Belgian people — who are quite decidedly Western, I might add — don't exclusively depend on American media for our news. You're both moving the goalposts and no true Scotsmanning.
As for the American media, let's wait until they wake up, shall we? Mostly I imagine it's not violent and exciting enough, but the NYT or NPR might still report on it.
By the way, Het Laatste Nieuws is read by something like 400,000 people and is thus the largest newspaper in Belgium. It's a bit like The Daily Mail. That's actually part of the reason I picked it. It's kind of a sensational rag: the epitome of those oh so horrible, rotten Western media.
This may surprise you, but we Dutch and Belgian people — who are quite decidedly Western, I might add — don't exclusively depend on American media for our news.
BTW, referring to the HLN.be link you gave:
The ban was imposed by an administrative court in Kiev.
The judgment is provisional, pending the hearing of a complaint by the Ukrainian media regulator against an administrator that the channels broadcast in question.
The prohibition concerns the channels Pervy Kanal, Rossia and NTV 24. These channels are, very popular among Russian-speaking people in the eastern and southeastern part of Ukraine.
The new regime argues that the ban isn't censorship or restriction of free speech, but common sense, namely it is "forbidden to lie."
We have here a nice interpretation of the ban :)
Ukrainian TV will be the first one worldwide where lie and bias is forbidden by law :jester:
Wonder if this interpretation will convince 8,000,000 Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity and a few millions of Ukrainians who are using Russian as their daily language. :left:
A wonderful documentary about an English surgeon in Ukraine explores the joys and tragedies of working in a difficult medical environment.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOwsD38VxwQ[/video]
Wonder if this interpretation will convince 8,000,000 Ukrainians of Russian ethnicity and a few millions of Ukrainians who are using Russian as their daily language. :left:
Of course it won't, because Russians in Ukraine are enclosed in the Russian media space that has the diametrically opposite view - and they stick to it. People stick to whatever they grew up with and what sounds convincing. Nobody pays much attention to sources that are not very convincing and not in their own language in the first place.
Media space is a serious concept. There is this kind of problem in every ex-USSR country. Media space divides Russians sharply from other ethnicities behind Russia's borders. Media space is how Russia feeds its own fifth column and keeps tensions alive. Russia is very effective at media war, as seen in the annexation of Crimea. Every ex-USSR country is a case of populations divided by media space.
Media war is real war. When countries are at war with each other, they direct propaganda at the opposite side and block the propaganda from there. Nothing extraordinary about it.
Democratic values in practice. And then, they say that Putin is a dictator.
If Russia Today is any indication, they're probably right.
they direct propaganda at the opposite side and block the propaganda from there. Nothing extraordinary about it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_press
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights states: "Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference, and impart information and ideas through any media regardless of frontiers"
There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation. You are quoting a thing that Putin had nothing to do with.
Democratic values in practice. And then, they say that Putin is a dictator.
If Russia Today is any indication, they're probably right.
What I said they might very well be right about is this:
The Ukrainian media watchdog claims that Russian information content is “threatening Ukraine’s national security, sovereignty and territorial integrity, promoting war, violence, cruelty, spreading interethnic and racial hostility, encouraging religious strife, encroaching on human rights and freedoms.”
Whether they're right to ban it for those reasons is a different discussion.
There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation. You are quoting a thing that Putin had nothing to do with.
You said that media war is real war. Is Russia now at war with Baltic states? Should Baltic states ban Russian media? Just asking.
What I said they might very well be right about is this:
The Ukrainian media watchdog claims that Russian information content is “threatening Ukraine’s national security, sovereignty and territorial integrity, promoting war, violence, cruelty, spreading interethnic and racial hostility, encouraging religious strife, encroaching on human rights and freedoms.”
Here are articles on RT tagged "Ukraine turmoil":
http://rt.com/trends/ukraine-turmoil/
Can you provide few samples of articles which contain bad things described above?
There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation.
Imagine an invasion without anybody getting hurt.
Imagine an invasion where the invadors are welcomed by the locals.
Imagine an annexation where the poeple wish to be annexed.
Imagine all these, wonder if you can.
I also wonder what the most democratic leader of the world does wrong when he is bombing and invading.
The effects are slightly different.
There's nothing democratic about invasion and annexation.
Imagine an invasion without anybody getting hurt.
Imagine an invasion where the invadors are welcomed by the locals.
Imagine an annexation where the poeple wish to be annexed.
Imagine all these, wonder if you can.
I also wonder what the most democratic leader of the world does wrong when he is bombing and invading.
The effects are slightly different.
I don't have to imagine. Russians have staged things this way in my country a number of times in living memory. Not once, but several times. Look it up.
I warmly recommend you, please stop imagining. Open your eyes and look at the facts. It may seem lucky when the events go bloodlessly, but it's a much more painful humiliation this way for the losing side. Russia is doing it AGAIN. It's far from the first time.
It's also not the first time to see a Westerner blissfully ignorant of the concepts of propaganda, fifth column, and media war, and a Russian side-stepping the concepts when they are an inconvenient truth.
You said that media war is real war. Is Russia now at war with Baltic states? Should Baltic states ban Russian media? Just asking.
You mean like this (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/21/us-ukraine-crisis-lithuania-idUSBREA2K1HP20140321)? :whistle:
Here are articles on RT tagged "Ukraine turmoil":
http://rt.com/trends/ukraine-turmoil/ (http://rt.com/trends/ukraine-turmoil/)
Can you provide few samples of articles which contain bad things described above?
I probably could, including the fact that Dolgov is given a sounding board in the very article, but I'm alluding to these kinds of misleading spins (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=90.msg7136#msg7136) and a few more I've come across since.
I probably could, including the fact that Volgov is given a sounding board in the very article, but I'm alluding to these kinds of misleading spins (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=90.msg7136#msg7136) and a few more I've come across since.
When you talk about misleading spins - do you mean something like "peaceful protesters"?
"Peaceful protesters" who killed 20+ policemen, "occupation and annexation" which was supported by majority of local population, "pro-Russian self defense forces" who look exactly like Spetsnaz GRU, "invasion" during which Russian troops did not kill even a single person, etc, etc.
All these spins were used by Western media which is great according to you. And as I understand you - you criticize RT for use of similar spins. Did I understand you correctly?
The hype on Ukraine etc has been on overdrive here in the know-it-all West. Invasion, sovereignty, interfering and all the other words dished out by political leaders and the media. Obama pontificates on the absurdity of upsetting a nation;s soveren position and it's right to do as it wants. This coming from a man who has a country that has invaded nation after nation. Interfering and invading and so on. How the deuce can he get away with treating us as if we are all stupid? It is okay for one nation along with it's other Western poodles to cause wars continually and then lecture and lay down restrictions regarding Ukraine. It is a damn insult to intelligence.
Ukraine's mess was essentially self-created and very much abetted by western interferers. Indeed they could not get into Kiev fast enough to show solidarity with an illegal destruction of a democratically elected government. The peaceful protests became violent because of the Right Faction and other extremists who did the violence and shot police and other extremist gangsters. The Kiev rump were content enough to use these neo-Nazis but now cannot control what has got out the box. Small wonder Ukrainian troops felt demoralised by the numpties in Kiev and many have changed sides.
Obama talked utter tripe on freedom and the will of the people keech. Supports the gangsters in Kiev who are there illegally - and who DON'T represent the country. At the same time a legitimate government in Crimea exercises legal rights with a referendum wanted by the people and that is wrong?? Crimea is back home where it has wanted to be so forget it that is gone and nothing tobe done about it. Having supported a bunch of thugs in Kiev and now prepared to dish out a loan the nation will probably go downhill because as I have stated austerity will hit in and in a very big way. The West has helped make the disaster and is trying to justify itself and cover up it's stupidity over the rubbish about freedom , etc.
Well done Crimea as it has got out before the place gets worse by it's own hands and the Western hypocrites.
Democratic values in practice. And then, they say that Putin is a dictator.
They're in the state of war.
Goebbels broadcasting on Moscow in year forty something is imaginable, isn't it?
Imagine an invasion where the invadors are welcomed by the locals.
Imagine an annexation where the poeple wish to be annexed.
Austria?
(Morning, pöple!)
"occupation and annexation" which was supported by majority of local population, "pro-Russian self defense forces" who look exactly like Spetsnaz GRU, "invasion" during which Russian troops did not kill even a single person, etc, etc.
All these spins were used by Western media which is great according to you. And as I understand you - you criticize RT for use of similar spins. Did I understand you correctly?
All the same spins apply with Hitler. During the annexation of Austria nobody died and the majority of the population was in favour of it (or so Hitler said), so, was it an annexation or was it not? Nobody died during the invasion of Czechoslovakia either. Quite to the contrary, many regained their rightful homeland and everybody else also greatly benefitted - that's what Hitler said. Many in the West "spinned" it differently of course.
By your logic, you could very well argue that Hitler didn't invade, annex and occupy anybody until he attacked Poland. You could also argue that the Baltic countries voluntarily joined the USSR in 1940, because the puppet governments set up under the invading army expressed their wish to that effect. In fact, this is exactly how Russians see history here. Where are they getting it from? They have their own history books that accord with the Russian view of the world. It is so conveniently very much like the American view of the world: When "we" do it, it's liberation, when "they" do it, it's an evil threat, fascism etc.
What Russia is doing in Ukraine is invasion, occupation, and annexation. There's no putting it in any other terms.
When "we" do it, it's liberation
Russian government uses term "rejoining with Crimea". One more spin. So, what exactly spin will be used in particular situation depends on point of view. Blaming media in use of misleading spins is the same as blaming them in having different point of view.
Here is one more sample of great Western media:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-right-wing/index.html
So, terrorist, criminal, anti-semite, and xenophobe is just a 21st century Robin Hood and national hero.
When "we" do it, it's liberation
Russian government uses term "rejoining with Crimea".
Exactly. Liberation, rejoining, etc. instead of the politologically correct annexation and invasion. In politology, when your army crosses the international border, it's invasion. And when you legalise occupation, it's annexation. The rest is spin.
All these spins were used by Western media which is great according to you. And as I understand you - you criticize RT for use of similar spins. Did I understand you correctly?
We can investigate using some quotes I used about Western media:
"I imagine it's not violent and exciting enough [for American media to report on it]."
"[HLN] is kind of a sensational rag"
Or to quote a friend of mine:
It seems to me that a lot of what’s been written reeks of hypocrisy and a complete lack of interest in a deeper understanding of the underlying problem. This shouldn’t be a surprise. After all, the media empires are employed in the service of economic blocks whose only interest is to prey like vultures upon a country whose inhabitants, throughout history, have not been treated kindly from a geopolitical point of view. So, dear fellow journalists, go and find your courage; try to understand more than what your rich, corrupt leaders pay you to. While these words are targeted especially at Western media, at least we have a media. In countries like Russia, and even worse, China, the entire concept of journalism has been turned into a sad joke.
Here is one more sample of great Western media:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-right-wing/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-right-wing/index.html)
So, terrorist, criminal, anti-semite, and xenophobe is just a 21st century Robin Hood and national hero.
Yet the American media are also Jewish-owned Zionist propaganda machines. Something doesn't add up.
Two points:
1) American media are Western media, but Western media are not American media.
2) Western media are not a monolith spewing government-sanctioned propaganda only.
Anyway, you think "radical nationalist leader" sounds positive? Or any of this?
"But the rise of Right Sector is not only worrying Moscow but also some Western government officials. Some believe Right Sector is a safe haven for right-wing extremists and even Ukrainian neo-Nazis."
"But it's also easy to worry about Right Sector's true ideological leanings when you see the red-and-black flags, stylized insignia and other paraphernalia of its militiamen."
The message I got from this article? Many people in Ukraine liked this guy, but from the writer's perspective the whole movement looks a lot like a bunch of creepy Neo-Nazis.
Anyway, you think "radical nationalist leader" sounds positive? Or any of this?
"But the rise of Right Sector is not only worrying Moscow but also some Western government officials. Some believe Right Sector is a safe haven for right-wing extremists and even Ukrainian neo-Nazis."
"But it's also easy to worry about Right Sector's true ideological leanings when you see the red-and-black flags, stylized insignia and other paraphernalia of its militiamen."
I agree that article contains few negative paragraphs about Muzychko and Right Sector. However, general impression which I got from this article is that they try to whitewash both this guy and this movement. And if you'll read comments to this article - you'll find that I'm not the only person who got this impression.
Response 1: We no longer believe that painting cartoonesque villains is the right way to go. That mostly goes back to Hannah Arendt's banality of evil. It's important to realize that the neighborhood psychopath appears like a nice person. I heard (or read?) a similar interview with Marc Dutroux's wife not too long ago. That doesn't mean they were whitewashing his horrendous crimes. To me, it made the whole affair that much more tragic.
Response 2: CNN isn't so great? I'm shocked! Shocked, I say!
But mostly, I'll stick with response 1. For CNN, I thought this article was fairly decent.
Here is one more sample of great Western media:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/26/world/europe/ukraine-right-wing/index.html
But the rise of Right Sector is not only worrying Moscow but also some Western government officials. Some believe Right Sector is a safe haven for right-wing extremists and even Ukrainian neo-Nazis.
Western governments didn't worry because of the Right Sector during the putsch. Without Right Sector, no putch. Make the devil your friend as long he can be useful. How far can hypocrisy go?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-O1A1CNV4xPU%2FUx6Pubbc0zI%2FAAAAAAAAAzk%2FQIJNHxaiCGI%2Fs1600%2F280214nuland.jpg&hash=7c0ec614e3b79c635001b1a898d40b88" rel="cached" data-hash="7c0ec614e3b79c635001b1a898d40b88" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-O1A1CNV4xPU/Ux6Pubbc0zI/AAAAAAAAAzk/QIJNHxaiCGI/s1600/280214nuland.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.michelcollon.info%2Flocal%2Fcache-vignettes%2FL500xH752%2FOleh-Nazisal079e-a8d7b.jpg&hash=387a896d771fa5268517a1843f6e3324" rel="cached" data-hash="387a896d771fa5268517a1843f6e3324" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.michelcollon.info/local/cache-vignettes/L500xH752/Oleh-Nazisal079e-a8d7b.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F4.bp.blogspot.com%2F-cxcpxp3ogMA%2FUx6PsuuHQnI%2FAAAAAAAAAzc%2FqbPs5bx3YG4%2Fs1600%2FD250D31D-4576-4962-B452-7DE15770F844_w640_r1_s.jpg&hash=430ebe94862252177a65e7b392e842ff" rel="cached" data-hash="430ebe94862252177a65e7b392e842ff" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-cxcpxp3ogMA/Ux6PsuuHQnI/AAAAAAAAAzc/qbPs5bx3YG4/s1600/D250D31D-4576-4962-B452-7DE15770F844_w640_r1_s.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FBhgI4mCCYAAYBxJ.jpg%3Alarge&hash=50f6886251c40dca2bf1b10ec67d1eb1" rel="cached" data-hash="50f6886251c40dca2bf1b10ec67d1eb1" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BhgI4mCCYAAYBxJ.jpg:large)
Two points:
1) American media are Western media, but Western media are not American media.
2) Western media are not a monolith spewing government-sanctioned propaganda only.
1) Of course not but more than once an echo of American media.
2) I would stress the word "only"
However it's always useful and instructive to compare the bias of both sides.
And since we are at it, could you recommend some Western sites (English or German language) which you think that aren't biased?
This just in....
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fo.onionstatic.com%2Fimages%2F25%2F25609%2F16x9%2F750.jpg%3F6593&hash=5496f459a4e54b4824d771a8a9d1b706" rel="cached" data-hash="5496f459a4e54b4824d771a8a9d1b706" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://o.onionstatic.com/images/25/25609/16x9/750.jpg?6593)
However it's always useful and instructive to compare the bias of both sides.
That leads to "Fair & Balanced" reporting. No, a bunch of lies doesn't deserve a veneer of legitimacy.
And since we are at it, could you recommend some Western sites (English or German language) which you think that aren't biased?
Of course not, nor is there anything wrong with bias.
Well krake I have said the same about the West being aware that the overthrow of the duly elected government was aided by the violence of the Right Sector and it's similars. They also have influential ministerial posts in the stolen government. As for bias when one watches the violence metted out in front of cameras in the Procurator Fiscal's office and then to a head of a tv channel in his office (publicly forced to sigh his resignation), etc a violent jack-in-the-box is obvious.
Obama on television was cringe making at it's worst. Somehow the mess in Iraq is okay and the Crimea a lot worse?? How is that for intelligence insulting? How can a world leader who has a nation that has invaded others sometimes with no UN permissiojn, etc able to stand up and give that stuff out? Obama talks a good game but mouths lies, deceit and a disgrace. The only saving grace (and that is stretched) is that neither McCain or Ryan was present as all hell would have been let loose. McCann is a complete headcase and that decent (?) people put him in is terrible. Somehow the US and EEC rabbit on about democracy and freedom along with the rights of the people. The fact that a deomocracically elected government was destroyed by a nbunch of thugs who were unelected comes under those phrases (along with the violence and killing) but a referendum by a legitimate government in Crimea is evil makes you scratch your head.
Those that took over in Kiev had no interest in the east or south of the country at all so why should they be led like puppies into something they were not part of? There has essentially been silence on this Forum regarding that telephone chat between the EEC boss and the Estonian Foreitn Minister. Same too for the Assistant Secretary of State in DC who used the a phone call that the EEC should "f--- off." So much for Obam and the chums in the EEC. Now we have another call by that crazy woman who is a former Prime Minister of Ukraine and her rancid conversation.
For Obama to say his admin had no involvement or wanted such in the internal affairs of Ukraine is a lie. He couldn't stop that damn head case, McCain going but his chums in the EEC went to Kiev and rallied behind the fighers and killers in Kiev. Now that the IMF is going to fish out a loan to a country that is almost belly up is going to make things worse for the ordinary Ukrainians. Pensions will be much reduced, taxes up, power bills will rocket, general prices. The strictness of the money will penalise millions of Ukainians who had no part in a rump taking over in Kiev aided by their Nazi bully boys. People living in the west of the country who were not part of the coup and millions in the east will suffer and small wonder their is trouble brewing east of the capital. This was not caused by Russia who at one stage was going to give loans at a reasonable situation but the group of power seekers and would be SS men.
deomocracically
The epitome.
Should you be more accurate, it'd be easier to read your wisdom.
...but a referendum by a legitimate government in Crimea is evil makes you scratch your head.
There's a wider context.
If there were no Putinland all around that place and situation - you could probably be right.
Forget Crimea, what about....?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F0.tqn.com%2Fd%2Fpoliticalhumor%2F1%2F0%2FV%2FG%2F6%2FPutins-Next-Move.jpg&hash=cb684a343b816be4306e2ae436611cdd" rel="cached" data-hash="cb684a343b816be4306e2ae436611cdd" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/V/G/6/Putins-Next-Move.jpg)
Yesterday Putin saved Ukraine from shame.
Ukrainian nationalists threaten to storm parliament after leader's killing (http://rt.com/news/right-nationalists-storm-ukraine-701/)
Storm was canceled after speech of Lyashko. Among other things he said that those who will storm parliament are accomplices of Putin.
I support Russia's initiative in Crimea and Alex Salmond's devolution initiative in Scotland.
I also support this brilliant suggestion.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rygWtvOeSw[/video]
There has essentially been silence on this Forum regarding that telephone chat between the EEC boss and the Estonian Foreitn Minister. Same too for the Assistant Secretary of State in DC who used the a phone call that the EEC should "f--- off." So much for Obam and the chums in the EEC. Now we have another call by that crazy woman who is a former Prime Minister of Ukraine and her rancid conversation.
What about the phone calls? You are free to give your opinion.
For Obama to say his admin had no involvement or wanted such in the internal affairs of Ukraine is a lie.
I don't care to calculate specifically what kind of influence the Western powers have over the situation, but let's assume that the current Ukrainian government is dancing like puppets on strings. Let's just assume this for the sake of the argument. If this be so, then is there any reason to believe that Russians have any less power over their own fans? Naturally Russians have much more influence and they are not hiding it either. Whatever outcome the West wanted from the riots etc., it could not have involved losing Crimea and the danger of losing the rest of Ukraine too. Who did it? Russians did it. It wasn't the West handing the entire Black Sea over to Russians. It's just the West being idiot jerks and losers when dealing with a bully exactly like in the beginning of the previous world war.
Krake keeps asking Cui bono. The answer is obvious enough.
Krake keeps asking Cui bono. The answer is obvious enough.
Putin financed, initiated and supported the putsch. The Right Sector is his covert army.
Your logic is amazing!
Krake keeps asking Cui bono. The answer is obvious enough.
Putin financed, initiated and supported the putsch. The Right Sector is his covert army.
Your logic is amazing!
No, your logic is amazing. Funny how in this conflict you choose your side and make that side all-good. In real life it never works this way.
To me both sides are bad. The West because they are idiots and Russia because they are a bully. Ukraine is in an unhappy power vacuum. To make this a pretext for invasion is bullying. And whoever brought about the power vacuum is a moron ignorant of political realities. With a bully next door, the last thing you want is a power vacuum in your country.
The West because they are idiots
I'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?
Although from playground experience, I suppose fighting fire with fire does work. A bully was once on the verge of making me a victim, but a quick playground fight favorably resolved that situation.
(Confession: one of my biggest regrets is an act of bullying in which I participated when I was five years old.)
The West because they are idiots
I'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?
It's simple: don't create situations like this. Coup in Kiev became successful because Yanukovich was pressed by Western powers. So, West allowed street mob (with strong neo-Nazi element, BTW) to overthrow Yanukovich. And the result? Crimea goes to Russia, Ukraine is on the edge and may collapse further.
It's not clear what exactly motives were used by Western politicians when they pressed Yanukovich. Maybe, ersi is right here: they did this simply because they are idiots.
Of course, Yanukovich is a bad guy. But now it's clear that overthrowing him was not the best scenario for Ukraine.
As for Russian role. Well, Putin just used this situation to cheaply and easily get strategic region.
The West because they are idiots
I'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?
I assume by "venturing into bully territory" you mean "display the same characteristics".
Depends of course, particularly when you are a third party merely observing the conflict. If you have the capacity to resolve the situation without injuries, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't meddle. In this conflict, the EU was not merely observing. They are in it through and through, both sucking Russian gas on one side and trying to "integrate" Ukraine on the other, and these factors have been at play when dealing with Russia's bullying. Or rather failing to deal with it.
I don't think the EU has the capacity to resolve the situation. Their track record is no good. They failed at Kosovo, dissolution of Yugoslavia. The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy. EU's foreign policy is completely dictated by United States and, inasmuch as it's not purely dictated, it's inert and indecisive due to the separate interests of the big member states. In this case, the best they could do was to condemn the bullying immediately and harshly, unequivocally cite the illegitimacy of the annexation and cut away from Russian gas and other important trade items. But there's no way EU could show its best. Just like with Ukraine they tried to get Ukraine bend to some demands and then "integrate" it - and failed at both - they are now trying both to "punish" Russia with sanctions while retaining the gas. Retaining the gas means there's no punishment at all, obviously. No backbone, no nothing. Big fail.
I don't pretend to be some expert at coaxing bullies. Let's just analyse the situation rationally. Often there's nothing in the situation to necessitate a favourable outcome for the victim. In fact, if there were a favourable outcome for the victim, there would be no victim really, right? To merit the honorable title of bully, the situation must develop so that there is a clear victim, meaning there's some damage done already or at least immediate danger of it. Bullies get to bully because there quite objectively isn't anyone to hold them back (such as a bigger bully) or because it's not in the character of bystanders to condemn the situation and express their discontent. In this case, the EU does not have in the character to do anything and the United States is the bigger bully that respects the interests of the fellow bully.
In terms of realpolitik, the victim's only option usually is to take the beating, whine, knock on conscience, and beg for mercy. It's the natural thing to do. Sometimes works so that the victim survives in some shape, but even if the victim doesn't survive he shall have expressed his point of view. My personal recommendation for the victim would have been to express it more effectively. Instead of giving away the territory and army in Crimea (you shouldn't cooperate with the bully!) to unleash the little force you have on the enemy. That's what soldiers are supposed to do - fight - and fighting to keep their own territory is meritorious to their kamma (if they are Theravada Buddhists) and appeasing to their conscience (if they are normal human beings of any other persuasion). Ukraine should have mobilised itself immediately, but didn't. Weak attitude that further favours the bully. At any rate, let there be no unclarity about who is the bully and who is the victim.
As for Russian role. Well, Putin just used this situation to cheaply and easily get strategic region.
Now let's be clear: This is not an innocent role. It's international aggression according to UN's definition. The security council just doesn't get the relevant resolutions through against Russia since Russia has veto right, the same way as it can't get resolutions through against Israel since United States has veto right.
Retaining the gas means there's no punishment at all, obviously.
I think that you oversimplify everything when you limit EU-Russia trade relationships to gas only. EU sells many goods to Russia, many EU companies work in Russia, many Russian companies work in EU. So, situation is not that turn off gas - and Russia is punished. If needed - Russia can respond in multiple other areas, and this response will be painful for EU.
I have a simple response to the situation in Ukraine and Crimea in the form of a question.
Are you willing to go to war over Russia's move in Crimea or his moving troops to the Ukrainian border?
Whatever Putin is up to, it has nothing to do with European or US security. Putin is not Hitler.
gas
The situation with gas is not the same as with some other trade.
You treat the contracts in advance, which contracts get you obliged for quite a period of time. Your money are usually already paid, let alone that tube transportation is not the same as moving lorries.
[the ]Coup in Kiev became successful because Yanukovich was pressed by Western powers.
Good Lord!
If a country is so vulnerable and can't resolve its internal bollocks by itself - what country is it? :gosh:
Ukraine should have mobilised itself immediately, but didn't.
I think that when Russian troops were found in Crimea - Turchinov declared mobilization. Less than 5% of reservists were "mobilized".
To me both sides are bad.
So we have to bad parts now. I would call this a progress on your part :)
The West because they are idiots and Russia because they are a bully.
Only question is why you are considering the West to be an idiot?
a. Because it financed, initiated and supported the putsch?
b. Because it didn't already start WWIII so it can teach bully Russia a historical lesson?
Ukraine is in an unhappy power vacuum.
And who is to blame for?
To make this a pretext for invasion is bullying.
Maybe. However, we have witnessed much worse pretexts for invading a country and it's not long ago since it happened.
You might be surprized that Putin's bully Russia has also its national interests even so those interests don't impair the whole globe.
And whoever brought about the power vacuum is a moron ignorant of political realities.
It's hard to argue with that. However you may oversee some aspects.
a. Nobody is perfect.
b. It's very difficult to organize a putsch abroad by using a mixture of fascists and oligarchs.
c.
Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.
It might be annoying that it wasn't enough time to also kick out the Russian Black Sea fleet from Crimea but you can't have everything at once in life.
I think that when Russian troops were found in Crimea - Turchinov declared mobilization. Less than 5% of reservists were "mobilized".
Not to mention that 75% of the Ukrainian troops in Crimea defected.
I assume by "venturing into bully territory" you mean "display the same characteristics".
As they say, intent isn't magic. If you're acting like a bully but you didn't intend to be a bully, you're still acting like a bully. So yes, pretty much.
The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy.
I think I disagree with you there. While I do think we need a European defense force, I'm of the opinion that our empire is built on inherently superior foundations to those of the classical empires of the US and Russia. Not invading Iraq or Georgia on a whim is one of our defining characteristics.
a. Because it financed, initiated and supported the putsch?
This has been brewing for ten years (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ultimate-betrayal-ukraine-retreats-to-a-dark-past-a-792458.html). Ask any of your Ukrainian friends.
c. Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.
A weakened Europe is not in the interest of the US.
Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.
Putin isolates Russia, just like how Bush isolated the US. I don't think we even handed him a shovel.
Not invading Iraq or Georgia on a whim is one of our defining characteristics.
I don't understand why Iraq can be compared to Georgia. Let me remind what happened in Georgia. Russian peacekeepers were located in South Ossetia since 1992. Saakashvilli decided that it will be good idea to attack them. So, he did this, and as further events shown - this was really bad idea.
While I do think we need a European defense force, I'm of the opinion that our empire is built on inherently superior foundations to those of the classical empires of the US and Russia.
If army of Banana Republic will attack European soldiers - what will you do? Say brilliant speech explaining why attacking European soldiers is a wrong thing? Or, maybe, respond in a way which will guarantee that attack like this will not repeat in the future?
Let me remind what happened in Georgia. Russian peacekeepers were located in South Ossetia since 1992. Saakashvilli decided that it will be good idea to attack them.
"Blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah"...
"Watch our russian television - the ultimate truth to the Universe!":faint:
Let me remind what happened in Georgia. Russian peacekeepers were located in South Ossetia since 1992. Saakashvilli decided that it will be good idea to attack them.
"Blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah"...
"Watch our russian television - the ultimate truth to the Universe!":faint:
You can get the same information from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_war
For details follow links in Wikipedia - all links are almost exclusively to Western media.
a. Because it financed, initiated and supported the putsch?
This has been brewing for ten years (http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/ultimate-betrayal-ukraine-retreats-to-a-dark-past-a-792458.html). Ask any of your Ukrainian friends.
Of course it was brewing for a long time. The 5 billions the USA invested for regime change in Ukraine was paid over the years.
c. Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.
A weakened Europe is not in the interest of the US.
I know what the official slogan is but you should better ask Zbigniew Brzezinski ;)
Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.
Putin isolates Russia, just like how Bush isolated the US. I don't think we even handed him a shovel.
Bush didn't isolate the USA. There's always 'hope' for a coalition of willing.
What he did was to divide Europe into "New" and "Old".
I don't understand why Iraq can be compared to Georgia.
It's not meant to be understood. It's just cheap rhetoric. Simply as that :)
Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?
The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy.
I think I disagree with you there. While I do think we need a European defense force, I'm of the opinion that our empire is built on inherently superior foundations to those of the classical empires of the US and Russia. Not invading Iraq or Georgia on a whim is one of our defining characteristics.
I will be interested to hear how EU is built on superior foundations and even "inherently" so when they have no common defence force, no coherent constitution, and lack the backing of the grassroot population. To me the EU is an echo-chamber of the political caste of the member countries. It's echo-chamber in the worst sense: They only like to hear their own voice and get nothing relevant done, particularly when it comes to the topic - foreign policy. What I saw on Iraq and Georgia and what I see now on Ukraine is indecision and inertia. I don't see any redeeming qualities, much less "inherently superior foundations". Besides, EU's pressure on Ukraine, the so-called integration effort, was aggravating the political atmosphere there and is partly guilty of the current situation, IMHO.
Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?
Yes. And why do you ask?
I will be interested to hear how EU is built on superior foundations and even "inherently" so when they have no common defence force, no coherent constitution, and lack the backing of the grassroot population.
I disagree with the last one, while the first two exemplify its inherently superior foundations. This is not an empire based on military might, even though we do have it.
What I saw on Iraq and Georgia and what I see now on Ukraine is indecision and inertia. I don't see any redeeming qualities, much less "inherently superior foundations".
Indecision and inertia are inherently superior to actively doing bad things. Perhaps you'd prefer to call it somewhat less bad, but it simply doesn't follow from your own argument that the EU is as bad as Russia.
Besides, EU's pressure on Ukraine, the so-called integration effort, was aggravating the political atmosphere there and is partly guilty of the current situation, IMHO.
The EU toppled a dictatorship with a tiny bit of economic pressure? If so, inertia my ass. :D
Perhaps you've even managed to convince me of it. Putin invaded Crimea? Well, what of it? Eastern Ukraine does not consist of a majority of ethnic Russians, and it overwhelmingly voted to leave the USSR. All Putin can do is put up a show at the border and hope it'll destabilize the government, but it won't. Inertia? No, Putin has shown his hand and it's all he's got. Ukraine will be free.
The EU toppled a dictatorship with a tiny bit of economic pressure? If so, inertia my ass. :D
I understand that Putin is a ruthless dictator. But when did Ukraine become dictatorship?
Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?
Yes. And why do you ask?
Nothing special... going from West to East across Europe I think Ukrainians are the first Slavs we find, at least at a more Southern route. A different world.
It made me think about it seeing so many specialists at Slav affairs. :)
I understand that Putin is a ruthless dictator. But when did Ukraine become dictatorship?
To my knowledge, Putin is mostly a benevolent dictator. But Ukraine became a dictatorship after contravening the most basic rights of a democracy: freedom of speech, assembly, and representation.
Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?
Yes. And why do you ask?
Nothing special... going from West to East across Europe I think Ukrainians are the first Slavs we find, at least at a more Southern route. A different world.
It made me think about it seeing so many specialists at Slav affairs. :)
Your facts are not correct, but your point is clear. Yanukovich is already declared a ruthless dictator, I wonder what else sins should we appoint to him?
I will be interested to hear how EU is built on superior foundations and even "inherently" so when they have no common defence force, no coherent constitution, and lack the backing of the grassroot population.
I disagree with the last one, while the first two exemplify its inherently superior foundations. This is not an empire based on military might, even though we do have it.
Weakness and easy divisibility from outside don't count as superior foundations for me. By easy divisibility from outside I mean these things: Remember how Rumsfeld divided Europe into New and Old? Noticed how countries bordering Russia receive a radically different trade treatment from Russia than those further away, and Brussels consistently rejects the complaints of the member countries? Meaning, Brussels actively and persistently turns a blind eye to the problem, acting as if Putin's puppet (there's no other way to put this). Do you know how the former Iron Curtain block is treated by major global sales websites (basically, by world banks) as some kind of third world akin to Russia, instead of as EU? This applies to Estonia even now when we have the f'n euro currency. Different fees and access (i.e. lack of access) compared to the "main" EU when making purchases on major websites.
What I saw on Iraq and Georgia and what I see now on Ukraine is indecision and inertia. I don't see any redeeming qualities, much less "inherently superior foundations".
Indecision and inertia are inherently superior to actively doing bad things. Perhaps you'd prefer to call it somewhat less bad, but it simply doesn't follow from your own argument that the EU is as bad as Russia.
You are right that it does not directly follow that the EU is as bad as Russia (which is not what I claimed anyway) but it also doesn't follow that the EU is any better.
In my book, ignorance and indecision are vices. When you said "inherently superior foundations" I honestly expected virtues. Instead you think that comparatively lesser vices should make the case for you. They don't for me. An arguably lesser vice is still vice.
Besides, EU's pressure on Ukraine, the so-called integration effort, was aggravating the political atmosphere there and is partly guilty of the current situation, IMHO.
The EU toppled a dictatorship with a tiny bit of economic pressure? If so, inertia my ass. :D
Very difficult for me to agree. I don't think Yanukovych's regime was a dictatorship to any notable degree. If you insist it was, then he was a very weak and incompetent dictator, because he failed to subdue the prolonged riots, he failed to mobilise the army against them. Machine-gunning the rioters would have been a normal move for a dictator. He didn't do it. Also, it's important to see what the alleged dictatorship has been replaced with. An equally weak and incompetent power that fails to mobilise the army when the nation is in dire need of it to preserve its integrity and dignity. I don't see any worthy replacement, and if the toppling was EU's doing, it's another demonstration of EU foreign policy incompetence for me, no virtue whatsoever. Sad story all the way.
"Dictatorship" needs defining a bit better then. At least I suppose a difference between a dictator and a tyrant. Am I right?
Eastern Ukraine does not consist of a majority of ethnic Russians, and it overwhelmingly voted to leave the USSR.
Depends on how you delimit "Eastern Ukraine". It's easily delimitable so that the majority is Russian. Vide Crimea.
All Putin can do is put up a show at the border and hope it'll destabilize the government, but it won't. Inertia? No, Putin has shown his hand and it's all he's got. Ukraine will be free.
Again, vide Crimea. Yanukovych has called for Crimea-type referendums in all Ukraine's regions. This would effectively be the end of Ukraine and annexation into Russia. Zhirinovsky (an ever-present vocal member of Russia's parliament) has invited Romania and Poland take a bite.
Eastern Ukraine does not consist of a majority of ethnic Russians, and it overwhelmingly voted to leave the USSR.
Depends on how you delimit "Eastern Ukraine". It's easily delimitable so that the majority is Russian.
Let's apply some gerrymandering?
:P
Weakness and easy divisibility from outside don't count as superior foundations for me.
I expect a Democratic Union of Europe (http://www.democraticunion.eu/about/statement-of-principles/) (or something along those lines) will form in due time. Perhaps sooner rather than later if Putin keeps up his antics. Heck, we might just as well say this is a fantastic opportunity.
By easy divisibility from outside I mean these things: Remember how Rumsfeld divided Europe into New and Old?
No. :) (Yes, I do remember him using that phrase.)
Noticed how countries bordering Russia receive a radically different trade treatment from Russia than those further away, and Brussels consistently rejects the complaints of the member countries? Meaning, Brussels actively and persistently turns a blind eye to the problem, acting as if Putin's puppet (there's no other way to put this). Do you know how the former Iron Curtain block is treated by major global sales websites (basically, by world banks) as some kind of third world akin to Russia, instead of as EU? This applies to Estonia even now when we have the f'n euro currency. Different fees and access (i.e. lack of access) compared to the "main" EU when making purchases on major websites.
You're allowed to say fucking Euro. Just don't make too much of a habit out of it. ;)
I'm not quite sure what you mean by global sales websites, but I've come across an idiotic American retailer that blocked access to its very website on the grounds that I wasn't viewing it from America.
I do see that e.g. Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=505554) charges more for shipping to Estonia than to the rest of the world. :???: That's just bizarre.
In my book, ignorance and indecision are vices. When you said "inherently superior foundations" I honestly expected virtues. Instead you think that comparatively lesser vices should make the case for you. They don't for me. An arguably lesser vice is still vice.
I happen to disagree with you. I just didn't think your argument was internally sound. It's clear that many of the things you call vices I call virtues. Note that Germany has the most soft power in the world, followed primarily by other EU members (and the US).
I don't think Yanukovych's regime was a dictatorship to any notable degree. If you insist it was, then he was a very weak and incompetent dictator, because he failed to subdue the prolonged riots, he failed to mobilise the army against them. Machine-gunning the rioters would have been a normal move for a dictator. He didn't do it.
The absolute monarch (i.e. dictator) Willem II undemocratically forced The Netherlands to become a proper democracy again in 1848. He was more or less the prototype of a benevolent dictator (not just for that reason), but a dictator he was.
I like Josh's definition of a tyrant as a particularly oppressive dictator.
Again, vide Crimea. Yanukovych has called for Crimea-type referendums in all Ukraine's regions. This would effectively be the end of Ukraine and annexation into Russia. Zhirinovsky (an ever-present vocal member of Russia's parliament) has invited Romania and Poland take a bite.
Desperate death throes.
General Assembly approves resolution on Ukraine, Crimea region
The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday approved a resolution that called the recent referendum on the Crimea region illegal and reiterated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The symbolic resolution passed with 100 votes in favor, 11 votes against and 58 abstentions. "This support has come from all corners of the world, which shows that this [is] not only a regional matter but a global one," said Andriy Deshchytsia, Ukraine's foreign minister.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/world/europe/General-Assembly-Vote-on-Crimea.html
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26776416
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/28/us-ukraine-crisis-un-russia-idUSBREA2R0DA20140328
I expect a Democratic Union of Europe (http://www.democraticunion.eu/about/statement-of-principles/) (or something along those lines) will form in due time. Perhaps sooner rather than later if Putin keeps up his antics. Heck, we might just as well say this is a fantastic opportunity.
This was described by Russian fabulist Krylov long time ago.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmnenie-ua.com%2Fmultimedia%2Fstati%2F400x300%2F2013%2F02%2F19%2Fintegratsia.jpg&hash=a4d5e4791cbf7e7b2ce3c4a24a714e6c" rel="cached" data-hash="a4d5e4791cbf7e7b2ce3c4a24a714e6c" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://mnenie-ua.com/multimedia/stati/400x300/2013/02/19/integratsia.jpg)
I do see that e.g. Amazon.de (http://www.amazon.de/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=505554) charges more for shipping to Estonia than to the rest of the world. :???: That's just bizarre.
Amazon and all other major selling and booking sites. On international sites I must pay more for the same flight tickets than Finns and Swedes do, even though my bank is Scandinavian and we are all in EU! This is very bizarre, but also very real.
The same way, what Rumsfeld merely said had a real effect, or reflected an emotional reality. The sentiments towards Brussels and Moscow are different like day and night in Estonia and Belgium.
Note that Germany has the most soft power in the world, followed primarily by other EU members (and the US).
I completely agree that Germany represents a soft and largely benign influence in the world, but I don't see the rest of EU following it coherently, and the US is definitely not following Germany, but exerts its own independent influence. Moreover, Germany has been the main culprit in playing softie with the border countries trade issue. The strategically dangerous pipeline (Nord Stream) in the bottom of the Baltic Sea is Germany's doing. And how did Germany react to Crimea issue? Merkel: "Putin is living in another reality." Stunning lack of understanding. Paralysed inactivity. No virtue. No integrity. No backbone.
PS Your fantasy of the Democratic Union of Europe is pretty, but lacks substance. EU is already disintegrating. It has never been sufficiently integrated. I stated a bunch of symptoms already.
Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?
Yes. And why do you ask?
Nothing special... going from West to East across Europe I think Ukrainians are the first Slavs we find, at least at a more Southern route.
Slovenia, the Chech Republic, Poland, Croatia, Slovakia, Serbia.
Do you still live in Europe or have you moved to the South American ex colony :)
This was described by Russian fabulist Krylov long time ago.
I don't know who that is, but I like the picture.
Slovenia, the Chech Republic, Poland, Croatia, Slovakia, Serbia.
Do you still live in Europe or have you moved to the South American ex colony
Surely only Croatia and Serbia are part of this southern route thing? ;)
General Assembly approves resolution on Ukraine, Crimea region
The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday approved a resolution that called the recent referendum on the Crimea region illegal and reiterated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The symbolic resolution passed with 100 votes in favor, 11 votes against and 58 abstentions. "This support has come from all corners of the world, which shows that this [is] not only a regional matter but a global one," said Andriy Deshchytsia, Ukraine's foreign minister.
Many sources say about isolation of Russia. Yet, 69 countries (including major players like China, India, Brazil) said that they don't care. This hardly can be interpreted as isolation.
The West because they are idiots
I'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?
If you have the capacity to resolve the situation without injuries, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't meddle. In this conflict, the EU was not merely observing.
I don't think the EU has the capacity to resolve the situation. The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy. EU's foreign policy is completely dictated by United States and, inasmuch as it's not purely dictated, it's inert and indecisive due to the separate interests of the big member states.
Well put, although I do disagree with the last bit, as we merely "suggest" what we'd like done, and the EU either goes along with what we want, to their/our benefit, or don't, and they reap no benefits.
Surely only Croatia and Serbia are part of this southern route thing? ;)
I've left out on purpose some 'countries' artificially build up after the NATO bombing of Serbia.
Bosnia and Herzegovina was basically turned into Moslem territory anyway.
Montenegro was turned into an artificial construction labeled as state.
Kosovo became an Albanian protectorat of the EU called now Republic of Kosovo.
General Assembly approves resolution on Ukraine, Crimea region
The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday approved a resolution that called the recent referendum on the Crimea region illegal and reiterated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The symbolic resolution passed with 100 votes in favor, 11 votes against and 58 abstentions. "This support has come from all corners of the world, which shows that this [is] not only a regional matter but a global one," said Andriy Deshchytsia, Ukraine's foreign minister.
Many sources say about isolation of Russia. Yet, 69 countries (including major players like China, India, Brazil) said that they don't care. This hardly can be interpreted as isolation.
To be more precise, 100 out of 193 voted for the symbolic resolution. 11 voted against, 58 abstained while 24 choosed to stay away.
I do disagree with the last bit, as we merely "suggest" what we'd like done, and the EU either goes along with what we want, to their/our benefit, or don't, and they reap no benefits.
Fully agreed except a minimale correction: "to our/their benefit"
BTW, Victoria Nuland resumed it to those famous three words ...
I think that most folk actually couldn't care much at all actually.Russia isn't thbully Southern wag and kind of ironic laugh considering what you lot do across the world when it suits and all in your "interest" and "security." Ukraine;s fiasco was created by itself and the coup by the neo-Nazis.Bemusing how the US and EEC neatly sidestep that matter. Just wait everyone to see the shambles coming with the austerity package I mentioned. And thank goodness there is a substantial country in the world which will not have it's strings pulled by the West. That is what gets up the nose of the White House and their motley bunch of would-be backers the nearly done in EEC. And why wasn't their a decision by the UN on the democratically elected government being illegally overthrown. When Obama mouthed off with his usual boring play on words about the world being behind himhe gets a wee reminder of all those who didn't vote for what he wanted.
As for Crimea it has returned home and will do better in the Russian Federation economically and infrastructure. Abridge is planned to the mainland and all done by a parliamentary vote unlike the diabolical bunch of head bangers in Kiev. I will be looing with interest on Ukrainian reactions when austerity hits them with a heavy toll.
I think that most folk actually couldn't care much at all actually.Russia isn't thbully Southern wag and kind of ironic laugh considering what you lot do across the world when it suits and all in your "interest" and "security." Ukraine;s fiasco was created by itself and the coup by the neo-Nazis.Bemusing how the US and EEC neatly sidestep that matter. Just wait everyone to see the shambles coming with the austerity package I mentioned. And thank goodness there is a substantial country in the world which will not have it's strings pulled by the West. That is what gets up the nose of the White House and their motley bunch of would-be backers the nearly done in EEC. And why wasn't their a decision by the UN on the democratically elected government being illegally overthrown. When Obama mouthed off with his usual boring play on words about the world being behind himhe gets a wee reminder of all those who didn't vote for what he wanted.
As for Crimea it has returned home and will do better in the Russian Federation economically and infrastructure. Abridge is planned to the mainland and all done by a parliamentary vote unlike the diabolical bunch of head bangers in Kiev. I will be looing with interest on Ukrainian reactions when austerity hits them with a heavy toll.
How is life in Putin's Russia, Mr. Howie?
One assumes you have moved there, you old Trotskyist you! :pirate:
I think that most folk actually couldn't care much at all actually.Russia isn't thbully Southern wag and kind of ironic laugh considering what you lot do across the world when it suits and all in your "interest" and "security." Ukraine;s fiasco was created by itself and the coup by the neo-Nazis.Bemusing how the US and EEC neatly sidestep that matter. Just wait everyone to see the shambles coming with the austerity package I mentioned. And thank goodness there is a substantial country in the world which will not have it's strings pulled by the West. That is what gets up the nose of the White House and their motley bunch of would-be backers the nearly done in EEC. And why wasn't their a decision by the UN on the democratically elected government being illegally overthrown. When Obama mouthed off with his usual boring play on words about the world being behind himhe gets a wee reminder of all those who didn't vote for what he wanted.
As for Crimea it has returned home and will do better in the Russian Federation economically and infrastructure. Abridge is planned to the mainland and all done by a parliamentary vote unlike the diabolical bunch of head bangers in Kiev. I will be looing with interest on Ukrainian reactions when austerity hits them with a heavy toll.
No, Russia is the bully in Eurasia. Now reports are coming that Russia threatned (http://(Reuters) - Russia threatened several Eastern European and Central Asian states with retaliation if they voted in favor of a United Nations General Assembly resolution this week declaring invalid Crimea's referendum on seceding from Ukraine, U.N. diplomats said.) Eastern European nations in they voted in favour of declaring Crimea's referendum invalid. Meanwhile, Russian continue to amass at the Ukrainian border, some reports say 40K, other 50K. Maybe the 40K reports are older. Putin is the aggressor here. I remember when you first came to the Myopera forums, you posted in favour of Mussolini. Well, he's back and Russian this time.
I remember when you first came to the Myopera forums, you posted in favour of Mussolini. Well, he's back and Russian this time.
Only Mussolini? Didn't we appoint Hitler title to Putin already?
Only Mussolini? Didn't we appoint Hitler title to Putin already?
I remember only one mention of Hitler:
Whatever Putin is up to, it has nothing to do with European or US security. Putin is not Hitler.
What a relief!
MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russian said on Saturday it had no intention of sending its armed forces into Ukraine, signaling Moscow wants to ease tensions in the worst East-West standoff since the Cold war.
Klichko is reported to go running for presidency (Radio Verulam).
I was just struck by a thought. That's related to that 'notorious' "inertia" of the "new powers" towards the Crimea's situation. (And also it implies some gerrymandering connotations.)
You know what? Being presumably common politicians, the new guys in Kiev must not be VERY interested in preserving the Crimea. You know why? Deeming that Yanukovich & Co. were sorta "pro-Russian" guys, let's recall that the majority in the Crimea don't seem to feel quite happy towards the "Ukrainian revolution", don't you think? Thus, preserving the Crimea in tact with the mainland means certain dissolution for support of the "revolutioners" taking the individed territory (ie the overall electorate as it could form with the Crimea).
What do you think? Is that 'inertia' just a "practical solution" for the "khloptzy" to keep the gain?
Forget Crimea, what about....?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F0.tqn.com%2Fd%2Fpoliticalhumor%2F1%2F0%2FV%2FG%2F6%2FPutins-Next-Move.jpg&hash=cb684a343b816be4306e2ae436611cdd" rel="cached" data-hash="cb684a343b816be4306e2ae436611cdd" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://0.tqn.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/V/G/6/Putins-Next-Move.jpg)
Breaking News!According to The Onion - America's Finest News Source, Mr.Obama agreed to turn over Alaska to Putin. Only condition Putin will have to comply is to take Sarah Palin too.
(https://vivaldi.net/media/com_easysocial/photos/7137/34998/ee33f4c82bc5dfbd0fd63cb92b3371a5_original.jpg)
That's a good trade-off. Bye, bye Palin.
In your mania about Putin/Russia the fact that Russia never had an intention of invading wasgenerally ignored. Politicians and the corporate media have a lot to blame along with the stupidity and possibly deliberate stuff coming from Kiev.
I remember when you first came to the Myopera forums, you posted in favour of Mussolini. Well, he's back and Russian this time.
Only Mussolini? Didn't we appoint Hitler title to Putin already?
Mussolini is a more apt epithet to Putin.
In your mania about Putin/Russia the fact that Russia never had an intention of invading wasgenerally ignored. Politicians and the corporate media have a lot to blame along with the stupidity and possibly deliberate stuff coming from Kiev.
Invading Criminea or the the Ukrainian mainland? Are you trying to suggest that he put 50K troops on the border to keep the Ukraine from invading with their pitiful army that isn't even close to being a threat to Russia?
Invading Criminea ...
Did you mean Kremlinea? :left:
You really are so gullible Sanguinemoon. You just absorb propaganda and Goebbells would have loved you and others in similar mode. Because you cannot prove there was any invasion you have to fall back on the invasion prospects tripe. It is bad enough that the ex-colonist media is so terribly bias without this additional nonsense. Your pal nation across the pond is the one with the unbeatable record of invading. It is the West who has helped create the Ukrainian mess and it will now only get worse as you all just simply ignore what is in your faces. On top of that the impending frugal existence Ukrainians are going to have with IMF money conditions.
The utter farce of the West rushing to support a minority in Kiev overtyhrow an elected government is unimportant but when an elected one (Crimea) does something all hell breaks loose. Some in Europe have come to realise that the Nazi lot have been released into the wider field. Germany is also still a bit concerned about sanctions which are not going to go anywhere.
In your mania about Putin/Russia the fact that Russia never had an intention of invading wasgenerally ignored. Politicians and the corporate media have a lot to blame along with the stupidity and possibly deliberate stuff coming from Kiev.
It's like the title of a new movie Hollywood is making.....
"What if they threw a war & nobody came?"
Why is it beyond the pale for a country outwith your own to look after it's interests? No other nation has such a woefulrecord of destabilising or attacking sovereignty than your own. I wouldn't be surprised if Fox News claimed Moses was a Yank.
Ukraine's Darth Vader bids to lead nation to the dark side
Sith lord runs for president as candidate of Ukrainian Internet party, vowing to 'make an empire out of a republic'
As Ukraine battles to stave off dark forces of its own, the Star Wars villain Darth Vader announced at the weekend he was running for president in a bid to restore glory to the downtrodden nation.
The Sith lord, or at least an unnamed costumed protester often seen on Kiev's Independence Square flanked by his loyal stormtroopers during the winter protests, has been chosen as the official candidate of the Ukrainian Internet party (UIP) which has become known for its theatrical public stunts.
Full article here (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/31/ukraine-darth-vader-president-internet-party).
I wouldn't be surprised if Fox News claimed Moses was a Yank.
What utter bollocks!
Everyone knows that Moses was actually a cat. *
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi1.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FfxmFUvGm0q0%2Fmaxresdefault.jpg&hash=7b0b7dd8dfbcf65e1e719030e2f8edaf" rel="cached" data-hash="7b0b7dd8dfbcf65e1e719030e2f8edaf" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/fxmFUvGm0q0/maxresdefault.jpg)
*= From "Meet the Fockers"
You really are so gullible Sanguinemoon. You just absorb propaganda and Goebbells would have loved you and others in similar mode. Because you cannot prove there was any invasion you have to fall back on the invasion prospects tripe. It is bad enough that the ex-colonist media is so terribly bias without this additional nonsense. Your pal nation across the pond is the one with the unbeatable record of invading. It is the West who has helped create the Ukrainian mess and it will now only get worse as you all just simply ignore what is in your faces. On top of that the impending frugal existence Ukrainians are going to have with IMF money conditions.
The utter farce of the West rushing to support a minority in Kiev overtyhrow an elected government is unimportant but when an elected one (Crimea) does something all hell break loose. Some in Europe have come to realise that the Nazi lot have been released into the wider field. Germany is also still a bit concerned about sanctions which are not going to go anywhere.
Why not ask me to prove that on clear day, the sky is blue? The Russian troops spread from their base and took control of the peninsula and occupied it. That's an invasion. What would you ask me to prove next, the tea comes from leaves? You claim bias, but sometimes one side has little to no legitimate argument.
From the NYTimes...
Russian President Putin to visit Germany.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/international/putin-to-visit-germany-with-30000-troops (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/international/putin-to-visit-germany-with-30000-troops)
From the NYTimes...
Russian President Putin to visit Germany.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/international/putin-to-visit-germany-with-30000-troops (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/international/putin-to-visit-germany-with-30000-troops)
"We're sorry; we seem to have lost this page,
but we don't want to lose you."
That's the whole article?
That's right.
From the NYTimes...
Russian President Putin to visit Germany.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/international/putin-to-visit-germany-with-30000-troops (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/01/international/putin-to-visit-germany-with-30000-troops)
"We're sorry; we seem to have lost this page,
but we don't want to lose you."
That's the whole article?
It should suffice for April Fools' Day :jester:
The Meeting between Kerry and Lavrov has ended, apparently without any agreement although Lavrov says it was positive.
The Russian position and intent is crystal clear: Ukraine crisis: Ukraine does not work as ‘unified’ state warns Sergey Lavrov after talks with John Kerry break up (http://).
Should that be done then it's almost inevitable that the Russian-speaking East will sooner or later fall into Russian hands. It's worrying that Lavrov should claim that Kerry is amenable to this idea. I just hope that Kerry is sophisticated enough not to get drawn into discussing blind alleys and obvious power plays aimed at more land-grabs.
The Rationale behind Putin's Russia (a common phrase I understand) is hypocritical in the extreme bearing in mind the amount of stirring that has gone on. The Ukraine is potentially a rich country and should be allowed to sort their own future, whatever that might be. It is not helpful for any countries to pre-judge the result and set up the very conditions which would precipitate it. That is precisely what Putin's Russia is doing.
However it's encouraging that there is diplomatic talk going on; at least the likelihood of armed conflict has reduced somewhat. Personally I would favour more sanctions of the non-trade version (i.e targeting high level cooperation over a range of areas) but leave the door open to future improvement after, but not before, Putin goes. Russia deserves someone with a few more "smarts".
It should suffice for April Fools' Day :jester:
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/banplease.gif)
Personally I would favour more sanctions of the non-trade version (i.e targeting high level cooperation over a range of areas) but leave the door open to future improvement after, but not before, Putin goes. Russia deserves someone with a few more "smarts".
Putin is 61 years old and in good shape. Hell, he swims with dolphins,shoots tigers and hunts with his shirt off. (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Feuro-med.dk%2Fbil%2Fputin-gun-thumb.jpg&hash=9f99c8c340ef60dcd18a78a6efc3374e" rel="cached" data-hash="9f99c8c340ef60dcd18a78a6efc3374e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://euro-med.dk/bil/putin-gun-thumb.jpg)
Putin isn't going anywhere. What's your guess on how the next two or three elections go? :up: or :down:
And his partner? (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.demotix.com%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fimagecache%2Fl_crop_medium%2F400-9%2Fphotos%2F493119.jpg&hash=dd2e93467f0b62c75fc703098bbb6a63" rel="cached" data-hash="dd2e93467f0b62c75fc703098bbb6a63" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/l_crop_medium/400-9/photos/493119.jpg)
Putin is 61 years old and in good shape. Hell, he swims with dolphins,shoots tigers and hunts with his shirt off.
Left alone he will stay for yet another term, having circumvented the Russian Constitution.
But I just try to put the blame in this silly adventure on where it belongs.
Vain people are more vulnerable to being ignored methinks.
If he comes around (and there are ways that he could do that) fair enough, but his present and near past conduct does not warrant any more red carpets or other trappings of a statesman.
In the meantime he has turned a large country (Ukraine) with reasonably good relations into a hostile neighbour and he has made Western Europe realise that traded dependency on Russia is a bad idea with the long term consequences that implies.
I'm guessing that he'll stay on as long as he wants to. A recent poll shows his approval rating at 70 percent. Merkel's is 68 percent, Cameron's is 37 percent, and Obama's ... lets not go there.
I don't know if that was before or after Crimea, but his Crimea adventure could only help. Somebody more knowledgeable about Eastern Ukraine will have to say what a move there would result in. He's said that he won't go there.
SF - if you are reading this - what is the purpose of the glove on Putin's right hand in the above photo? He seems to be right handed, but surely a glove on a trigger finger is not the best approach for accurate shooting. I'm open correction of course but do you think he thinks he's playing golf.
He seems even shorter than I thought if that grass height is anything to go by.
Not SF, but it's a shooting glove.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.browningshop.com%2FimagesEdp%2Fp146527b.jpg&hash=7f6961c917de3e846c052ce94e67c404" rel="cached" data-hash="7f6961c917de3e846c052ce94e67c404" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://images.browningshop.com/imagesEdp/p146527b.jpg)
The sole purpose of a trendy hobby is to encourage you to keep buying trendy accoutrements.
A shooting glove! It's that a sort of fashion accessory? Like the telescopic sights?
I really must get a glove for changing gears in my car. Maybe take my shirt off too.
The point of all this is that I scorn posers.
That's called a gear glove. Go ahead and take your shirt off, you Putin clone.
You scorn posers, do you? How about this?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fdata3.whicdn.com%2Fimages%2F7029027%2Flarge.jpg&hash=d6a200cfea53ffc215b40c53c0f0f9fa" rel="cached" data-hash="d6a200cfea53ffc215b40c53c0f0f9fa" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://data3.whicdn.com/images/7029027/large.jpg)
A shooting glove! It's that a sort of fashion accessory? Like the telescopic sights?
I really must get a glove for changing gears in my car. Maybe take my shirt off too.
The point of all this is that I scorn posers.
Get the gloves. Cars have had glove-boxes for a century. Not too sure about the shirt. Is any car fitted with a shirt-box?
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs.
But OK for you to do so? :faint:
@jimbro. I don't smoke. :)
Daft answer jimbro. Probably due to not being fully aware of the detail or think I am singly your leaders especially along with our European leaders. It is okay for time after time for the West to interfere wherever it suits them but not some country they cannot control? Russia cannot be compared to the interference by all of us in the West whether the US or Europe. Taking the sao-called moral high ground when you consider our modern history over the last several decades says much. When will we in the West interfere with the running of places like, say Saudi Arabia? A hell hole of despotism and no rights, etc. Russia was right over Crimea so that has to be loved with and all the daft stuff about Moscow wanting to invade is a symptom of the continuing of a failed hang back of the Cold War thinking.
In the meantime he has turned a large country (Ukraine) with reasonably good relations into a hostile neighbour
A large country (Ukraine) with reasonably good relations?
You mean the self-appointed gang (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion) coming to power through a coup d'etat organized by fascists with Western support?
and he has made Western Europe realise that traded dependency on Russia is a bad idea with the long term consequences that implies.
By 'Western Europe' you probably mean primarily 'the USA', the UK, Poland and the 3 Baltic states (in that order)?
Or do you mean the same Western Europe that took the USA's side when they invaded Iraq?
As for the 'invaded' and 'annexed' Crimea - from the 18000 Ukrainian troops stationed there around 1500 have returned to the Ukraine!
Does this at least tell you something?
And no, Russia doesn't hold back anybody from returning 'home'.
As for the 'invaded' and 'annexed' Crimea - from the 18000 Ukrainian troops stationed there around 1500 have returned to the Ukraine!
Why do you put 'invaded' and 'annexed' into quotes? Doesn't the invasion and annexation in Crimea qualify as such? What would it take so that it would qualify as invasion and annexation?
A large country (Ukraine) with reasonably good relations?
You mean the self-appointed gang (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/29/ukraine-fascists-oligarchs-eu-nato-expansion) coming to power through a coup d'etat organized by fascists with Western support?
By 'Western Europe' you probably mean primarily 'the USA', the UK, Poland and the 3 Baltic states (in that order)?
Or do you mean the same Western Europe that took the USA's side when they invaded Iraq?
As for the 'invaded' and 'annexed' Crimea - from the 18000 Ukrainian troops stationed there around 1500 have returned to the Ukraine!
Does this at least tell you something?
And no, Russia doesn't hold back anybody from returning 'home'.
1 No I mean The Ukraine, the large country with reasonably good relations with Russia. Neither do I equate Russia with it current clumsy Government.
2. The USA is not actually in Europe. To back up my remark about Europe working towards less dependency on Russia, please refer to this: EU plans to reduce Russian energy dependence (http://www.euractiv.com/energy/eu-leaders-discuss-reducing-ener-news-534344).
3. (Putin's)
"Russia doesn't hold back anybody from returning 'home'.". Strange remark - it is not clear what you mean - do you mean Ethnic Cleansing, or do you seek to justify annexation of a country on the grounds that they speak the same language?
3. Iraq - what has that got to do with the current crisis in the Ukraine? Possibly because of WMDs? Iraq had WMD and led people to believe they maintained that capability, whereas the Ukraine destroyed theirs as part of the agreement that their territorial integrity was guaranteed by Russia. But that was Russia, not Putin's Russia.
By 'Western Europe' you probably mean primarily 'the USA', the UK, Poland and the 3 Baltic states (in that order)?
That doesn't make any sense. Most of the EU's gas and a decent amount of oil comes from Russia. Meanwhile, the USA has been importing less and less Russian oil for years. There's no such thing as an American energy dependency on Russia.
As for the 'invaded' and 'annexed' Crimea - from the 18000 Ukrainian troops stationed there around 1500 have returned to the Ukraine!
Does this at least tell you something?
Yes, that you fully accept the annexation. How else could one "return" from Crimea to Ukraine?
@jimbro. I don't smoke. :)
I'm sure you don't, but Putin's girlfriend is smokin' hot.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.balkanweb.com%2Ffoto%2F63115.jpg&hash=37dd04e77c286b78bc7f1cbf74be1155" rel="cached" data-hash="37dd04e77c286b78bc7f1cbf74be1155" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.balkanweb.com/foto/63115.jpg)
Daft answer jimbro. Probably due to not being fully aware of the detail or think I am singly your leaders especially along with our European leaders.
.....................................................................
Russia was right over Crimea so that has to be loved with and all the daft stuff about Moscow wanting to invade is a symptom of the continuing of a failed hang back of the Cold War thinking.
I'll respond once I find a translator.
1 No I mean The Ukraine, the large country with reasonably good relations with Russia. Neither do I equate Russia with it current clumsy Government.
For reasonably good relations it needs at least two parties.
Blaming Russia and turning a blind eye at the gang in Kiev won't change facts nor is it meant to de-escalate the situation.
2. The USA is not actually in Europe. To back up my remark about Europe working towards less dependency on Russia, please refer to this: EU plans to reduce Russian energy dependence (http://www.euractiv.com/energy/eu-leaders-discuss-reducing-ener-news-534344).
Not geographically at least...that's why I put it into quotes.
From the link you gave:
Van Rompuy also spoke about the need to facilitate gas imports from the USA, where shale gas has become available for export via LNG terminals. He mentioned the need to include this issue in the ongoing TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment partnership) negotiations with the US.
What Van Rompuy tells is rather irrelevant. He will leave office in November while Europe will exist even after that date.
As I mentioned before TTIP is seen with much scepticism for several reasons by many in Europe...
If some countries prefer to import shale gas from the USA, that's fine. They can do it immediately. No need for TTIP for that.
Alluding to the fact that Russia pursues a policy of ‘divide-and-rule’ vis-à-vis EU countries, Van Rompuy appealed for more transparency on contract conditions, and the need for the EU to “work as a team”, when individual countries negotiate contracts with Russia.
What the US puppet didn't told, the ‘divide-and-rule’ vis-à-vis EU countries applies rather for the USA.
Sharing more information, bringing more transparency on contract conditions – all that to increase our joint bargaining power”, Van Rompuy insisted.
So the contract conditions should be supervised by whom? Should Germany supervise economic trade relations of the UK or vice versa? Or should Poland supervise economic trade relations of Germany and the UK? To increase our joint bargaining power or to weaken it?
I see where Van Rompuy is coming from...
Germans aren't afraid of dependency for Russian gas and oil. Those who are should import from the USA and our Saudi friends.
Merkel also didn’t discard developing shale gas in Europe as an alternative to imports.
Those who are willing to ruin their environment even more, are free to do so. Chevron will give them a helping hand.
No fracking in Germany, with or without that friggin TTIP!
3. (Putin's) "Russia doesn't hold back anybody from returning 'home'.". Strange remark - it is not clear what you mean - do you mean Ethnic Cleansing, or do you seek to justify annexation of a country on the grounds that they speak the same language?
I thought my point was very clear.
Even the overhelming part of Ukrainian troops (in spite of an oath) stationed in Crimea prefer to live in a Russian Crimea instead of returning home (even though they have been ordered to return).
3. Iraq - what has that got to do with the current crisis in the Ukraine? Possibly because of WMDs?
Wasn't it also an invasion? An invasion driven by civilized nations with the highest ethic standards, not like Putin's creepy Russia.
So of course it was quite different from Crimea's invasion by 'imperialistic' Russia.
Some of the differences:
1. It wasn't based on a pretext but on a blatant lie.
2. The lie had to be legitimized by dragging other nations into the war too (Coalition of the willing).
3. It wasn't bloodless, it took the life of hundreds of thousands.
4. Good part of the infrastructure was destroyed by the 'liberators'.
5. It didn't end with a referendum but with a civil war destabilising an entire region and the carnage is continuing till this day.
The way you play along with Russia's divide-and-rule policies, Krake, is sad to watch. I thought only Merkel and Schröder did that. I didn't expect it from ordinary Germans. This particularly applies to your comments on energy policy.
LNG shipments are not the answer.
Van Rompuy also spoke about the need to facilitate gas imports from the USA, where shale gas has become available for export via LNG terminals. He mentioned the need to include this issue in the ongoing TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment partnership) negotiations with the US.
While the shale-gas boom has made the U.S. the world’s largest natural gas producer, efforts to ship the fuel are bogged down by rules, financing needs and construction demands. Winning U.S. approval can take three years or longer, and not all companies planning a project are committed to completing the work.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-07/years-needed-for-lng-exports-to-blunt-russia-energy-sales.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-07/years-needed-for-lng-exports-to-blunt-russia-energy-sales.html)
By 'Western Europe' you probably mean primarily 'the USA', the UK, Poland and the 3 Baltic states (in that order)?
That doesn't make any sense. Most of the EU's gas and a decent amount of oil comes from Russia. Meanwhile, the USA has been importing less and less Russian oil for years. There's no such thing as an American energy dependency on Russia.
Those are the main players worrying because of Western Europe's dependency on Russia and asking for Russia's isolation.
Of course, US trade with Russia is negligible. The USA hopes that deadening Western Europe's economic trade with Russia is a good opportunity for boosting its own TTIP.
As for the 'invaded' and 'annexed' Crimea - from the 18000 Ukrainian troops stationed there around 1500 have returned to the Ukraine!
Does this at least tell you something?
Yes, that you fully accept the annexation. How else could one "return" from Crimea to Ukraine?
Whatever I fully accept or not is less important.
What it tells is that even the vast majority of Ukrainian troops stationed in Crimea prefer to live in an 'annexed' Russian Crimea instead of a 'free' Ukraine.
Even the overhelming part of Ukrainian troops (in spite of an oath) stationed in Crimea prefer to live in a Russian Crimea instead of returning home (even though they have been ordered to return).
Maybe they don't think that Crimea isn't home anymore, huh?
Was it annexation or not?
Maybe they don't think that Crimea isn't home anymore, huh?
Was it annexation or not?
Please rephrase the first sentence.
It wasn't annexation. Russia borrowed Crimea.
A bit like America borrowed Hawaii?
Meanwhile a US Air force general has moved back to the John Wayne attitude of stating via NATO that Russia has a large and extremely well trained capable army ready to invade Ukraine and take it within 3 days?? What utter bunkum. Why the heck is NAT still here? It is a hangover from the past and makes all sorts of spurious claims to justify it's existence and world ominance. Crimea is back home so forget about that because that is not going to change and the people there will be better off under the Federation than the half-baked and Nzi influenced bandits in Kiev. The West still bleats about the quickness of the Referendum decided by the parliament (note legitimate parliament) whilst happily endorsing a bunch of creeps who stole the legitimate government of Ukraine.
Unfortunately for Ukraine it will continue to suffer with the heavy restrictions on the IMF loans which most here on the thread chooser to subtly ignore of course. Considering how limited the bandit take-over was in support nationally the future is rather shaky and considering the wonky state of the EEC financially not much to be expected with that lot of losers.
Maybe they don't think that Crimea isn't home anymore, huh?
Maybe they think like you, huh? :left:
A bit like America borrowed Hawaii?
Meanwhile a US Air force general has moved back to the John Wayne attitude of stating via NATO that Russia has a large and extremely well trained capable army ready to invade Ukraine and take it within 3 days?? What utter bunkum. Why the heck is NAT still here? It is a hangover from the past and makes all sorts of spurious claims to justify it's existence and world ominance. Crimea is back home so forget about that because that is not going to change and the people there will be better off under the Federation than the half-baked and Nzi influenced bandits in Kiev. The West still bleats about the quickness of the Referendum decided by the parliament (note legitimate parliament) whilst happily endorsing a bunch of creeps who stole the legitimate government of Ukraine.
Unfortunately for Ukraine it will continue to suffer with the heavy restrictions on the IMF loans which most here on the thread chooser to subtly ignore of course. Considering how limited the bandit take-over was in support nationally the future is rather shaky and considering the wonky state of the EEC financially not much to be expected with that lot of losers.
Have no fear, William Howie Wallace! When Scotland leaves the UK, we'll remove our bases from Scotland. :cheers:
"The Walls kept tumbling down in the City that we love; gray clouds bringing darkness from above."
But if you close your eyes, does it almost feel like nothing changed at all? (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/imthinkin6.gif)
Let Pew-teeen & his band of lil Ruskie KGB pussies come here & get what for -- an armed, 2
nd Amendment lovin' American Patriot behind every blade of grass, poised at the ready behind every tree, drawin' a bead on his sorry punk ass!
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FK0B1HCK.jpg&hash=ddbd35db8f1f7025c668f058a7f43c8f" rel="cached" data-hash="ddbd35db8f1f7025c668f058a7f43c8f" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/K0B1HCK.jpg)
[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTdIikiVXps[/VIDEO]
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/guns4.gif)
Well you do need a dose of practicality on being invaded dear Smileyfaze terrorist.
Your armed forces have amongst the highest rate of suicides - average one a day. On top of that menatal health issues effect 25% of the rest and been rising. What is it now - 3 shooting rampages on army bases and twice in the same one? Even the Majhor involved in one was a head shrinker! Oh and throw in a whole line of sex abuse cases to distract the invasion as well. Of course there are efficient units and don't deny that but doing that breast thunping bit about the wonderful boys in unform is pushing the boat not just a little! With such a rising mental situation it shows that the intake is highly questionable and the calibre is far short. So on that basis perhaps you had better get on the right side of Putin to save yourself a headache. If really stuck I can send over The Boys' Brigade or Scouts from the gritty parts to help. Anything to help as i know a sensible ex-colonist!
Well you do need a dose of practicality on being invaded dear Smileyfaze terrorist.
Your armed forces have amongst the highest rate of suicides - average one a day. On top of that menatal health issues effect 25% of the rest and been rising. What is it now - 3 shooting rampages on army bases and twice in the same one? Even the Majhor involved in one was a head shrinker! Oh and throw in a whole line of sex abuse cases to distract the invasion as well. Of course there are efficient units and don't deny that but doing that breast thunping bit about the wonderful boys in unform is pushing the boat not just a little! With such a rising mental situation it shows that the intake is highly questionable and the calibre is far short. So on that basis perhaps you had better get on the right side of Putin to save yourself a headache. If really stuck I can send over The Boys' Brigade or Scouts from the gritty parts to help. Anything to help as i know a sensible ex-colonist!
Putin can right well bug off.
Never will understand why you wish to bend over backwards for that arrogant prick.
Never will understand why you wish to bend over backwards for that arrogant prick.
Authoritarian macho worship. Quite possible there's a whole lot of compensation involved too :right:
Never will understand why you wish to bend over backwards for that arrogant prick.
Authoritarian macho worship. Quite possible there's a whole lot of compensation involved too :right:
:lol: , Probably so!
Hmm, might have to start a thread on Stalin to gauge Mr. Howie's reaction to him. :whistle:
Hmm, might have to start a thread on Stalin to gauge Mr. Howie's reaction to him. :whistle:
Good luck finding a shirtless one :right:
Unfortunately your country laddie is still in a Cold War mentality. The USSR is long gone but the corporates who run America and make the money are determined their politicians keep things like NATO urging on that confrontation mode. Russia has completely changed since the fall of Communism and continues to change. You seem to think that somehow America is the only one with some divine right to control the world. War after war and all in the name of "security", oh and "America;s interests." Time after time this has went on and when Russia takes a stand on it's interests all Hell breaks loose. What gets up the West nose and especially the US is that Russia cannot be battered down or taken over like anywhere else. Time you grew up in the global play game dear boy.
Your trillions in debt gets worse, spend more than anyone on war and have tens of millions of your own people in a predicament. Small wonder so many in the military are having brain probs as they are probably desperate for a job. Russia wil continue to improve and getting rid of the dictatorship does not mean a miracle in a few years. Look at the land of the free and home of the brave. Two centuries on and what a state is is in. Small wonder there are repeat shooting son military bases and is an improvement from a legion of schools and other places. There is no comparison between Putin and Stalin. That cruel git who killed more than even Hitler did. Free elections and conducted properly. Mind you there are free elections in the ex-colony and look what it gets for it! :o
Unfortunately your country laddie is still in a Cold War mentality. The USSR is long gone but the corporates who run America and make the money are determined their politicians keep things like NATO urging on that confrontation mode. Russia has completely changed since the fall of Communism and continues to change.
I have a side note on it.
It was thought that Keiser Germany was "long gone", right? Next, today's NATO? Remember the Versailles Allies? They didn't dismiss. "Russia has completely changed"? If you say so, but I guess there were lots of such 'howies'
(no personal) at the time to think "Germany has completely changed". Yes, the then Germany had a "covert" ally in the person of Soviet Russia -- does Putin's Russia have such one?
The desintegration of Ukraine continues http://newsru.com/world/07apr2014/donetsk.html В Донецке провозгласили создание Донецкой народной республики, независимой от Украины, и под крики "Путин, помоги!" приняли решение войти в состав РФ
Josh, almighty language guru, translate it for the rest of the world. Here's my humble preliminary contribution. (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=et&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fnewsru.com%2Fworld%2F07apr2014%2Fdonetsk.html)
"Disintegration".
В Донецке провозгласили создание Донецкой народной республики, независимой от Украины, и под крики "Путин, помоги!" приняли решение войти в состав РФ
(There's a town (city) in Ukraine which is the centre of one of its mining regions. It is
Donetzk here.)
So, as ersi's info says, the Donetskiy Region was proclaimed independent from Ukraine...
Was it a сход or something more serious, Ersi?
This source is as official as it gets http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1102101
I'll read a Russian article the day Russians up the pootins on pitchforks. Let the BBC do the job till then.
Actually they lie anyway.
I'll read a Russian article the day Russians up the pootins on pitchforks. Let the BBC do the job till then.
Yeah, only geniuses can go to BBC site. Obviously, Josh is not a genius.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26919928
Pro-Russian protesters who seized the regional government building in the Ukrainian city of Donetsk are reported to have declared a "people's republic".
The rebels have called for a referendum on secession from Ukraine by 11 May.
Rebels??? They are doing about the same thing as Maidan in Kiev. So, obviously, they are not rebels, they are peaceful protesters.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
And Lugansk is also named at the same breath http://www.inopressa.ru/article/07Apr2014/inotheme/ukraine_07.html
It's going a bit slow to my taste, but I still think it will be as bad as I thought. Namely, there's no stopping it until the ex-USSR borders are reclaimed. And any serious attempts to stop it will look ugly enough to resemble WWIII.
It's going a bit slow to my taste, but I still think it will be as bad as I thought. Namely, there's no stopping it until the ex-USSR borders are reclaimed. And any serious attempts to stop it will look ugly enough to resemble WWIII.
Restoring USSR using armed forces does not make any sense. So, there are no reasons to assume that Putin plans anything like this.
Restoring USSR using armed forces does not make any sense. So, there are no reasons to assume that Putin plans anything like this.
Well, he is doing it as we speak. And, yes, I agree - it doesn't make any sense.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.
Putin has repeatedly made it clear he does not want to be like an American Imperialist. Crimea is gone so that's a dead story. As for the east of Ukraine there is no great swell for joining Russia it is more a case of wanting a Federal Ukraine. After all they helped vote in a democratic government which was illegally kicked out and the Kiev lot made a point of ignoring what people felt in the southeast and even more so in Crimea.
Russia has stated continually that it does not want to see Ukraine falling apart but in the US and EEC you wonder what makes the political mind tick. More and more over the pond are not interested in being involved with the Ukrainian situation . Perhaps war weariness has a part. So the country will continue to struggle and a Federal system is the way ahead as I said in a previous submission here. That would keep the country as one but if Kiev is stupid enough to try the tough hand then kiss goodby to any co-operation in the east.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.
When did takeovers and landgrabs depend on popular support? They depend on who gets the upper hand, while the upper hand may be played as if popular support.
USSR knew this game well and Putin has done his KGB homework. The Baltic countries were annexed this way in 1940. Nobody among the local people wanted it. After the military invasion - well, since there was hardly any shot, let's call it intrusion - there were as-if elections which ended in direct appointments to the government by the foreign power. The parliament stopped legislating at that point and began issuing declarations of peace and friendship instead. According to Russian historians the events enjoyed overwhelming popular support, marked by "spontaneous" parades, mass rallies of the proletariat, etc.
Russia has stated continually...
RJ, you never seem to critically mention what "Russia says", while "the U.S. of A." gets dipped in shit even sooner than it "says something".
How come?
...the events enjoyed overwhelming popular support, marked by "spontaneous" parades, mass rallies of the proletariat, etc...
Maybe proletariat пролетал?
:rolleyes:
From the official source "The future of Transdniestria (a region seeking independence from Moldova) is with Russia and it will need a “civilised divorce” with Moldova, the self-proclaimed republic’s leader Yevgeny Shevchuk said on Monday, April 7." http://en.itar-tass.com/world/726882
Now, why am I mentioning Moldova in this thread? Geographically, Moldova is where Ukraine is, just to the opposite direction from Russia.
Politically, Moldova has been weaker than Ukraine. There have been no riots, luckily, but there's insane in-depth poverty and hopelessness among the people, and lack of political and economic aim among the elite, other than grabbing some wealth and sitting on it. Romania's (another next-door neighbour there) poverty is a piece of cake in comparison. Moldova is more like Albania, probably worse than that.
The article I quoted is particularly about Transdniestria (or Transnistria, transcribe as thou wilt), the ticking time-bomb in the same area. It's a Russian-army-occupied internationally unrecognised de facto independent territory with fully elaborated administrative representation, nominally apart from Russia, but ever waiting for its opportunity to reunite with the motherland. The right opportunity is of course when at least Moldova and Ukraine are drawn along.
Here's the map. Green is Ukraine. Crimea is just outside the map to the right.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2F9%2F90%2FTransnistrianRegionMap.png&hash=c505c3424d49fa74c35f455249e5984d" rel="cached" data-hash="c505c3424d49fa74c35f455249e5984d" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/TransnistrianRegionMap.png)
Having typed from phone? I hope you're going to brush it up later.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.
I've read the same in German media.
It makes me wonder why Kiev opposed referendums in those regions. It seems that Kiev isn't at all confident about the outcome of such referendums. Furthermore it seems that Kiev doesn't even trust the law enforcement forces of those regions.
Instead of de-escalation and honest efforts to solve peacefully the tensios, all that Kiev has to offer are questionable special forces.
On Monday, a source in the Interior Ministry of Ukraine told Ria Novosti that three special forces units have been redeployed to the Donetsk and Lugansk regions to suppress anti-government protests. The source claims that they consist of Interior Forces units, the newly-formed National Guard, Right Sector radicals, and Blackwater (Greystone) mercenaries and Falcon units. LifeNews also reported seeing armed Titan special forces units in Donetsk.
These special forces are ready to solve operational problems without the regard to local peculiarities
- Ukraine's Interior Ministry quoted Avakov
So it seems that the Ukraine is heading toward a civil war. The self-appointed government in Kiev is innocent, so is the West supporting it and the only person to blame for is ... is ... Putin.
Deploying is not the same as using.
Politically, Moldova has been weaker than Ukraine. There have been no riots, luckily
Luckily, no riots. Just plain old war which resulted in up to 900 dead.
It's a Russian-army-occupied internationally unrecognised de facto independent territory
The Joint Control Commission (JCC, Russian: Объединенная контрольная комиссия - ОКК) is a tri-lateral peacekeeping force and joint military command structure from Moldova, Transnistria, and Russia, which operates in a buffer zone on the border between the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine.
Ok, I understand that in Estonia peacekeepers are named occupants. I have question about peacekeepers from Moldova and Transnistria: are they also occupants?
Ok, I understand that in Estonia peacekeepers are named occupants. I have question about peacekeepers from Moldova and Transnistria: are they also occupants?
Why is it so hard to stay on topic for you? You saw the article I quoted? The president of the self-proclaimed republic (incidentally we are seeing a lot of self-proclaimed republics this week) issued a plea to be annexed by Russia, so says TASS. What is unclear there?
As to peacekeepers, the concept is understood in Estonia (and in the rest of the world minus Russia) as small military units who wear light blue helmets. The troops are from countries unrelated to the situation where they are assigned. Their assignments are brief and temporary as per UN directives. They are positioned in strategically inconvenient places, easy to see and shoot at - deliberately. When shot at, they only complain and leave, declaring the situation unbearable.
Transnistria does not even remotely resemble this. South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria have been in a locked-down political situation for decades. Normal peacekeepers quickly get in and out of the situation and the troops are from countries unrelated to the location of the assignment. In contrast, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria are best described as Russian military bases specifically designed to block any political solutions in those places indefinitely.
Your definition of peacekeepers goes squarely against the definition of peacekeepers in the rest of the world. From now on, whenever you say peacekeepers, I know you mean Russian occupying forces. I don't really care how you name them. I care what they do, and there's no denying about what they are doing. For example they overran and annexed Crimea.
I suggest a new term - "piss-kippers".
My question was about peacekeepers from Moldova and Transnistria. They obviously don't fit your definition. So, they are occupants too. Thank you for your answer.
I hope that you use the same term for NATO forces in Kosovo. Let's check it:
small military units who wear light blue helmets - currently KFOR has 4000 people - this is 2 times more than Russia has in Transnistria
The troops are from countries unrelated to the situation where they are assigned - NATO bombed Yugoslavia, so, obviously, they are not neutral
Their assignments are brief and temporary as per UN directives - not brief, no UN directive
They are positioned in strategically inconvenient places, easy to see and shoot at - not sure
When shot at, they only complain and leave, declaring the situation unbearable - I really doubt that NATO will leave Kosovo if Serbia will attack them
Occupants, not peacekeepers. Right? BTW, I don't know whether KFOR includes Estonian troops. Can you enlighten me here: does Estonia participate in occupation of Kosovo?
Your definition of peacekeepers goes squarely against the definition of peacekeepers in the rest of the world.
I'm sorry to say this, but Estonia is not the rest of the world. Wikipedia obviously describes Russian troops in Transnistria as peacekeepers. Wikipedia also describes Russian troops which were located in South Ossetia at time of Georgian attack as peacekeepers too. BTW, KFOR is also described by Wikipedia as peacekeepers. And I wonder whether you can apply your own definition to NATO troops or this definition works only when you talk about Russian troops.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.
When did takeovers and landgrabs depend on popular support? They depend on who gets the upper hand, while the upper hand may be played as if popular support.
They're much less messy if a sufficiently large part of the population wants to join their new overlords.
Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.
From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.
I've read the same in German media.
It makes me wonder why Kiev opposed referendums in those regions. It seems that Kiev isn't at all confident about the outcome of such referendums. Furthermore it seems that Kiev doesn't even trust the law enforcement forces of those regions.
One article I've read claimed that local law enforcement is 'demoralized and in disarray'.
They're probably afraid that such a referendum would be rigged if deemed necessary by the Russians.
Instead of de-escalation and honest efforts to solve peacefully the tensios, all that Kiev has to offer are questionable special forces.
Same kind of authoritarians on both sides of the border.
They're probably afraid that such a referendum would be rigged if deemed necessary by the Russians.
??? I understand that Putin is a very powerful person, but I have no idea how he can rig referendum in Ukraine where he does not control local authorities, media, police, army, etc.
They're probably afraid that such a referendum would be rigged if deemed necessary by the Russians.
??? I understand that Putin is a very powerful person, but I have no idea how he can rig referendum in Ukraine where he does not control local authorities, media, police, army, etc.
I didn't say this (hypothetical) fear is justified - maybe it is, maybe not, the new government didn't come across as particularly rational so far. Then again, with Kiev losing control of those areas to pro-russian rebels, your guess is as good as mine.
And I wonder whether you can apply your own definition to NATO troops or this definition works only when you talk about Russian troops.
NATO troops in Kosovo? They are occupiers too of course, and the attacks on Serbia were a wanton exercise of military might. The same with NATO in Libya, the "coalition of the willing" in Iraq, and the same with the USSR in Afghanistan in 1979 and in the Baltic countries and Poland in 1939-1940. Peacekeeping is just an occasional mask in some of those cases, the more ordinary masks are deterring threats and restoring order.
At least with American forces in most places you can say they are kind of unrelated, because they come from the other side of the world. In contrast, Russia's "peacekeepers" immediately at their own border leave no illusion of impartiality or disinterestedness even when one might otherwise be easily misled to believe stuff.
You see, when you stupidly bring up the argument that Americans do it too, then yes, Americans do it too, but this doesn't make Russians any better. You really want to be as big international bully as America is? What Russia is doing right now is not enough?
??? I understand that Putin is a very powerful person, but I have no idea how he can rig referendum in Ukraine where he does not control local authorities, media, police, army, etc.
You have no idea only when you are totally blind to both the current news and historical scenarios that are being replayed right in front of you.
When did takeovers and landgrabs depend on popular support? They depend on who gets the upper hand, while the upper hand may be played as if popular support.
They're much less messy if a sufficiently large part of the population wants to join their new overlords.
Popular support has been historically unnecessary many times. It often suffices to replace the political elite with puppets. Making the regime effectively a one-party system helps a lot.
At least with American forces in most places you can say they are kind of unrelated, because they come from the other side of the world.
This is the best criteria of peacekeeping mission that I ever heard. So, when USSR deployed missiles on Cuba - they were peacekeeping missilies because they were too far from Moscow. Let's continue your idea. After all, Soviet government expected that USA will invade Cuba. So, it's quite possible that those missiles did keep peace on the island. Voila, Cuban crisis was Soviet peacekeeping operation. ersi, you're a genius.
At least with American forces in most places you can say they are kind of unrelated, because they come from the other side of the world.
This is the best criteria of peacekeeping mission that I ever heard. So, when USSR deployed missiles on Cuba - they were peacekeeping missilies because they were too far from Moscow. Let's continue your idea. After all, Soviet government expected that USA will invade Cuba. So, it's quite possible that those missiles did keep peace on the island. Voila, Cuban crisis was Soviet peacekeeping operation. ersi, you're a genius.
Compared to you, I am genius, yes, because you forgot all the other criteria that go into peacekeeping. And you keep forgetting stuff as much and as often as it suits you. So, when we are looking for geniuses, we won't be looking at you.
Compared to you, I am genius, yes, because you forgot all the other criteria that go into peacekeeping. And you keep forgetting stuff as much and as often as it suits you. So, when we are looking for geniuses, we won't be looking at you.
I never said that I'm a genius. I'm damn stupid idiot - everybody (including myself) knows this.
Point taken.
...Americans do it too, but this doesn't make Russians any better.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/awright005.gif)
Can you enlighten me here: does Estonia participate in occupation of Kosovo?
Unfortunately, genius did not answer all of my questions. So, I've found needed info myself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Kosovo_Contingent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Iraqi_Contingent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Afghanistan_Contingent
Americans do it too, but this doesn't make Russians any better
It's funny but even gracious Estonians are not better: tiny Estonia participates in occupation of 3 countries. This looks extremely aggressive for country which is smaller by population than Yekaterinburg alone.
And in general rule of force was used by humankind during thousands years. As events show, this will not change in 21st century.
That stinky part amazes me much: when someone deems someone else's sins make himself look better.
You can't clean a toilet by making another toilet utterly unbearable. As we speak about Ukraine, particularly -- right? --- nothing which does not directly influence the situation there can change that situation. Isn't it obvious enough? Should we apply the General Relativity or just mere logic will suffice?
It's funny but even gracious Estonians are not better: tiny Estonia participates in occupation of 3 countries. This looks extremely aggressive for country which is smaller by population than Yekaterinburg alone.
Yes, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and some Estonian contingent was recently sent to RCA too in a so-called peace-keeping mission, which in reality is to help France keep exploiting the country. This makes four missions.
And in general rule of force was used by humankind during thousands years. As events show, this will not change in 21st century.
There's a serious difference between the kind of occupation that Estonia does and what Russia does.
- The Estonian missions are exclusively international missions. No self-initiated attacks ever, at all.
- Estonia has no military, strategic or economic gain in the missions. We didn't get oil from Iraq or sand from Afghanistan. The only gain is an elusive idea of partnership with the other involved countries, even though there are no guarantees. (Note that this doesn't make the missions selfless. It makes them pointless.)
- Estonia's history of such occupations began this century. Russia's has lasted at least half a millennium.
- The people of Estonia (people as distinguished from govt) clearly understand that these are missions of occupation rather than liberation. The popular opinion is diametrically opposed to the govt decisions. You, on the other hand, justify the crimes of your govt.
Also, there's the difference that you are a self-admitted idiot, whereas I am genius. I will keep patiently educating you when I have time. Thanks for cooperation.
Also, there's the difference that you are a self-admitted idiot, whereas I am genius. I will keep patiently educating you when I have time. Thanks for cooperation.
But would a true idiot know that he is an idiot? :sherlock:
But would a true idiot know that he is an idiot? :sherlock:
Ah, a trick question :) Well, straightforwardly, if he is not a true idiot, even though he says he is, then he is a liar. Which does not help his case at all.
However, if he is a true idiot, and irreparable, I am sadly wasting my time and effort.
But I prefer to interpret it this way: This was one claim by him that I could agree on. Hence we have found some common ground. It's a narrow and uncertain ground, but let's be happy with this start and try to progress from here, shall we...
Svoboda's rightwing party arguing in the Ukrainian parliament:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrFJDyuFX-E[/video]
No wonder that many Ukrainians aren't eager to see their destiny in such hands (fists).
The man was apparently from the southeast of Ukraine and arguing that the government wasn't being fully national and only creating dissension in the country.That buffoon, Kerry got into the general act by conjuring up a fairy tale that the people in the east were being organised by Russia. He not only looks a an idiot but talks like one. Ukraine voted in a government democratically whatever the former President was like and the people in the east are understandably annoyed at being mistreated. Even when some demonstrations were peaceful the "authorities" got pushy. So it is okay to illegally topple a government but not tolerate anyone who disagrees with you? It is all duff propaganda because the majorityu language in the east is Russian so Russia must be involved. May I remind the fairtale lovers that US politicians, EEC ones went directly and publicly into Ukraine to support the people in the square who were voilent, deadly and run by neo-Nazis. Kerry stoically ignores the Russian Foreign Minister's repeats that they are not interested in invading Ukraine. The "President" of Ukraine has added his act against Russia. It tells you that from the start the west of Ukraine didn't care a damn about the east or south and were only concerned about themselves.
The main thrust in the east of the country is for the federal system I referred to but if the storm trooper mentality in Kiev aided and abetted by the West are going to keep on a support for one side then the Ukraine will fall apart. One thankful side item is that more and more ordinary Americans are a bit less inclined than their politicals to get too involved. So well done them.
Also, there's the difference that you are a self-admitted idiot, whereas I am genius. I will keep patiently educating you when I have time. Thanks for cooperation.
But would a true idiot know that he is an idiot? :sherlock:
Possibly, but would he know that he's a
true idiot? :left:
Dunning & Kruger say ... probably not :right:
Here's something so bizarre I don't know what to think of it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/
On March 28-31, 2014, we asked a national sample of 2,066 Americans (fielded via Survey Sampling International Inc. (SSI), what action they wanted the U.S. to take in Ukraine, but with a twist: In addition to measuring standard demographic characteristics and general foreign policy attitudes, we also asked our survey respondents to locate Ukraine on a map as part of a larger, ongoing project to study foreign policy knowledge. […]
Survey respondents identified Ukraine by clicking on a high-resolution world map, shown above. […]
About one in six (16 percent) Americans correctly located Ukraine, clicking somewhere within its borders. Most thought that Ukraine was located somewhere in Europe or Asia, but the median respondent was about 1,800 miles off — roughly the distance from Chicago to Los Angeles — locating Ukraine somewhere in an area bordered by Portugal on the west, Sudan on the south, Kazakhstan on the east, and Finland on the north.
I can potentially see myself confusing e.g. Ghana and Ivory Coast during a lapse of attention or under time pressure — the rough equivalent of confusing Ukraine with e.g. Romania or Belarus — but where on earth did they manage to find all the people who strayed so far from the rough vicinity of East-Central Europe? (
Especially seeing how it's been all over the news recently.)
Jax, where's your map of American Earth?
Well, when I was a schoolboy, I had difficulties to imagine political entities south and east of Moscow. However, I could imagine Siberia and the Far East separately. There were difficulties with Middle and South Asian countries -- I always had problems with Asia. I guess Soviet pedagogic bosses were leaving it to the military and KGB to ponder about.
Here's something so bizarre I don't know what to think of it.
From that article:
The less people know about where Ukraine is located on a map, the more they want the U.S. to intervene militarily.
So 84 percent couldn't correctly locate Ukraine.
No wonder that GW Bush had such a great support for going to war. ::)
So 84 percent couldn't correctly locate Ukraine.
And among those, 95% couldn't find their asses with a road map.
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/banana-monkey-34.gif)
It is none of America's business nor the EEC interfering politicians business to shout on about Ukraine's internal affairs.
Saith the sage of Glasgow. Jimbro agrees, for whatever good that will do.
And Cameron?
Jax, where's your map of American Earth?
They are out there, but I think Frenzie should have included the map in question. It is quite pertinent.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Fblogs%2Fmonkey-cage%2Ffiles%2F2014%2F04%2FUkraine_Full.png&hash=4ad8f3646c539fc3b30b3a5428441e77" rel="cached" data-hash="4ad8f3646c539fc3b30b3a5428441e77" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/files/2014/04/Ukraine_Full.png)
Several comments.
First, it is disappointing that it is colour-coded by the distance from Ukrainian borders. Assuming we knew where Ukraina is (we do, don't we? If not: where you can see those red dots) this gives us no new information. The article claims that "the less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene", so why not colour-code by the response ("nuke'em now" through "stay away" to "huh?")?
Second, for a majority of the respondents the accuracy is actually pretty good. If West Europeans were asked the same question I would guess we'd get a similar map, with some important differences. West Europeans, especially those who like to keep a distance to East European countries also overestimate the actual physical distance to a country like Ukraine (anecdotally only, I'd love to see a similar map/survey for West Europeans). The distance from Lviv in West Ukraine to Donetsk in the East is about the same as the distance from Lviv to Frankfurt in West Germany.
If we look at the map the dots cluster around three countries, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, and Kyrgyzstan (told you, Ersi, Kyrgyzstan's in Europe). This is exactly the same east shift I suspect West Europeans would show. They have a good, but often prejudiced, idea of where Ukraine is.
The rest of the dots are literally all over the map and near random. Either they were not really trying, they had a problem reading the map, or they probably have a problem finding the nearest convenience store as well. I don't think it is common among Americans to believe that Ukraine is in Tennessee. Alaska I could understand, given the Palin jokes a page or so back, but it also interesting that Greenland is such a dot magnet.
Maybe because Ukraine is actually quite a green land?:)
If West Europeans were asked the same question I would guess we'd get a similar map
I should hope not. Perhaps if you qualify it as West Europeans who grew up when Ukraine was a Soviet republic.
I just wonder, after discarding the reasonable mistakes (Romania, Belarus, Bulgaria, possibly the Black Sea, possibly Georgia, and heck, let's add Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan), is the rest just being silly or should I seriously despair?
(told you, Ersi, Kyrgyzstan's in Europe)
Yes, if you let geographically clueless Americans decide. And you of course let them, because you'll get more funny maps this way.
I should hope not. Perhaps if you qualify it as West Europeans who grew up when Ukraine was a Soviet republic.
You are more optimistic than me on our fellow West Europeans. I presume they get the basics right (i.e. Ukraine is in Europe and Europe isn't Africa or South America, and Ukraine borders to Russia). And few West Europeans travel to Ukraine on holiday.
But Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan are reasonable guesses if you think of Ukraine as a country far, far to the east (and ignore that Kyrgyzstan has no border with Russia). That is where the US guesses clustered as well. The Kyrgyzstan dots are definitively by intention (but when Mongolia and Pakistan were chosen, that started to be significantly off-target).
Those that didn't guess Ukraine was in the Black Sea or Caspian Sea, that is. To me that is an indication that one of the problems was an unfamiliar map representation. We who look at graphical representations of Eurasia daily in the Europe thread (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=163.0) will recognise the outlines, but it will be an additional cognitive obstacle.
The non-clustering dots, while not completely random, seemed an "I have no clue" option. The Africa dots were very evenly spread. The best way would be to put up some controls, like "Where is Pakistan | Nigeria | Indonesia | Brazil on the map?"
You are more optimistic than me on our fellow West Europeans. I presume they get the basics right (i.e. Ukraine is in Europe and Europe isn't Africa or South America, and Ukraine borders to Russia). And few West Europeans travel to Ukraine on holiday.
It's pretty simple. It's east of Poland and west of Russia. That pretty much leaves a choice of Belarus and Ukraine. And thanks to the Crimean affair, everyone should be aware that Ukraine isn't land-locked. Perhaps that means the most forgivable mistakes are actually Estonia, Latvia, and Georgia — not Romania and Belarus.
[Edit]Except there I forgot about the lack of clear sea delineation.[/Edit]
Those that didn't guess Ukraine was in the Black Sea or Caspian Sea, that is. To me that is an indication that one of the problems was an unfamiliar map representation. We who look at graphical representations of Eurasia daily in the Europe thread (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=163.0) will recognise the outlines, but it will be an additional cognitive obstacle.
That's quite true. It's at least somewhat unfair not to delineate the sea clearly, the way it is on pretty much any map ever.
The non-clustering dots, while not completely random, seemed an "I have no clue" option.
Fair enough.
Yes you are right jimbro the condemnation should include Cameron and anyway he has been going along with the EEC which we are sadly in. I do think to be fair that even though much of the people haven't a clue where Ukraine is it was not generally felt it was really European in the general and traditional sense. What the damn thing has to do with the EEC or NATO it beyond me or anyone really looking at the situation. Ukraine will neverbe in NATO and even participants in that waste of time think so too. The only reason Ukraine wants to be in the EEC is because they couldn't run flea market stall never mind an economy.
The propaganda stuff coming out of the illegal government in Kiev is automatically blaming the Russians for anything and everything. Right now they owe Russia billions on loans that country gave them AND unpaid gas supply bills. If Russia had really wanted to put the boot in then that would have happened on day one. Now the Kiev lot are sending "security" forces to thee east of the country and the Right Sector that crowd of Nazis who have what is it 4 or 5 Ministers say they are heading there too.
For Heaven's sake how do sensible ex-colonists cope with that dumb, brain-dead, contemptible and empty head, Senator McCain?? The man is totally embarrassing. Thak goodness the voters didn't go bananas and have him as President because a WW3 would have been more likely. Repeatedly, I have said that a Federal system is the only way for Ukraine so what do others think? Even in osme places in the west of the country there are unhappy people concerned about what Kiev is up to and there is little sign of even being very concerned about the east and south east. Russia DOES want Ukraine to stay together and this is neatly skipped by too many but if things get worse then the blame lies with we in the West in supporting what happened illegally in Kiev. Only a wider view can hold things now.
Ossinovski says Estonia should be safe.
Jevgeni Ossinovski, the sole member of the Russian minority serving as a minister in the Estonian government, says he doesn't fear that Vladimir Putin will seek a repeat of Crimea in the Baltics. The Russian minority, he argues, is firmly anchored in Europe.
That Russian guy says Russia is no threat and the fifth column is no fifth column. Somehow does not sound very reassuring. I wonder why...
Thak goodness the voters didn't go bananas and have him as President because a WW3 would have been more likely.
I have nightmares about that. They go this way...
"President McCain shot and killed by lone gunman. President Palin sworn in on the site."
Look at Crimea in Google Maps. It shows now a line of international border with Ukraine.
Kievite govt has apparently averted the loss of Harkiv, Donetsk and Lugansk, but the tensions are still there as Lavrov keeps bringing up regional referendums and Putin personally pressures Kiev on gas debt. And in some unverifiable news (allagedly Interfax) it says that a French (NATO) spy ship entered the Black Sea from Turkish side.
Ironically it has been Russia that has been such a great benefactor to Ukraine. The gas issue is a big one and Russia gave them supplies at a special reduced rate and still didn't get paid on occasions. The EEC has give them nothing and the billion from the US is still to arrive so if it hadn't been for the Russians it would have already have been a failed State.
What I thought was almost unbelievable was that woman who does the press conferences in the White House going about how scandalous it was with Russia using oil as a kind of immoral sanction when they and us have been doing the same thing with others for years!
Now we have a situation in Ukraine where an illegal coup government is telling vast numbers of people in the east and south who voted democratically to take orders or else. Now is it correct the Kiev Prime Minister is saying regions should have a referendum? Although i would prefer to se the Federal system I have put forward if Kiev is not careful that might be replaced by complete separation. The propaganda has been ridiculous. One picture was portrayed as starvation in Crimea when it showed a long supermarket shelf empty. Then when the picture was zoomed in on it was dollar price signs! Seems it was a supermarket in the US and they had been clearing out of date stock. Another photo was of refugees until it was realise it had been seen somehwre else and turned out to be Syrians. Pictures of rows of jets had been taken a long time before the crisis but used as being right now. It is getting ludicrous. Ukraine needs to be greater Federalised or suffer wider break-ups and when the West puts up as much as Russia has for Ukraine then we will have some moral claim of a sort.
The gas issue is a big one and Russia gave them supplies at a special reduced rate and still didn't get paid on occasions. The EEC has give them nothing and the billion from the US is still to arrive so if it hadn't been for the Russians it would have already have been a failed State.
Don't be unfair Mr Howie. The USA already did what it could. Offering cookies for free is a generous act you can't overlook. I can't tell for sure how much this will boost Ukrainian economy but consider it a first step.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Frt.com%2Ffiles%2Fopinionpost%2F21%2F88%2F00%2F00%2F000_par7739549.jpg&hash=18593ce89786a60bcbff36b251d24f99" rel="cached" data-hash="18593ce89786a60bcbff36b251d24f99" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://rt.com/files/opinionpost/21/88/00/00/000_par7739549.jpg) (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Frt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F21%2F76%2F60%2F00%2Fnula-2.jpg&hash=eac893f950494cdcf4e25281291db912" rel="cached" data-hash="eac893f950494cdcf4e25281291db912" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://rt.com/files/news/21/76/60/00/nula-2.jpg)
Haha, yes the cookies effort! However it falls far short of common sense on the political and economic front.
Unfortunately the average ex-colonist has no idea about Ukraine and only told what the media wants. To a degree the same here even with the BBC. The telephone conversation senior US government person that said the EEC should f--- off was all that most were allowed to find out NOT the actual conversation. I have also noticed my references to the EEC offial a UK Baroness and the Estomian Foreign Minister chat has been largely ignored. It has not been America nor the EEC which has been the biggest financial help to Ukraine BUT Russia. DC is promising a billion dollars of tax money to illegal regime in Kiev and the EEC given nothing whilst Russia the biggest giver has been treated like a pariah.
Now eastern Ukraine is in an increasing turmoil and one police chief has resigned and in another are the police chief hands said he is with the local people and they are not their to attack them. It does not bode well for the Kiev rump and their Nazi associates. In pursing a Federal outcome i would have thought that the best direction but if going to be ignored ny the West a worse situation will follow. The place is in deep debt (much to Moscow financially), falling aparet and all because we in the West in a stupidity encouraged a barbarian lot in that Kiev square to illegally take over an elected government. I can tell you this that more US money pumped in will be a drop in the ocean but there may well be a more slight reasoning. That is the prospect of some follow-up financial benefit for US corporates. Supplying armaments wile be joyous along with other commercial attempts. It is the sual follow-up strategy.
So why not go to the east and dish out the biscuits there is only one part of Ukraine deemed worthy??!
Battle in Slovyansk, geographically in the middle of Lugansk, Harkiv, and Donetsk debacle. Official source for Krake, Howie and other pro-Russkies http://itar-tass.com/mezhdunarodnaya-panorama/1117336
Nothing as bad as the Kiev mobsters as of yet. But how ludicrous is this? A bunch of crazy people destroy a democratically elected government and illegally took things over. They didn't care a damn about the national situation in Ukraine only around Kiev and the West. Now the East is simmering and the illegal government doesn't like it! Almost hilarious if it wasn't so serious. If Kiev does try to stop the referendums wanted on a Federal Ukraine it will only get worse. In fact the east of the country gives more in taxes, etc to Kiev than it gets back and the country is now in a state of turmoil.
The billion from DC is still not there and as I pointed out nothing from Europe which is in a mess anyway. Russia is still a big debtor to Russia which bent over backwards financially and got ripped off. Somehow they are meant to just forget it. A billion won't save Ukraine and it will be hit by a massive cut in everything from pensions to run-of-the-mill existence costs. Probably as bad as Greece in fact. Russia has no wish to invade the place and have stated they are only concerned about the matter of Russians there. Somehow it is okay for the USA to invade anywhere it likes to look after it's interests! You couldn't make this nonsense up!
As for NATO it is nothing whatsoever to do with that out of date bunch. It is past it's sell by date and an un-required expense so they should bug off. Russia has always ensured the gas to Europe even back in USSR days and now with 2 pipes bypassing Ukraine willl ensure that Eurpoe still has the supllies. Ukraine will suffer for that or are we supposed to ignore the aid Russia gave to the falling apart country? Sadly Ukraine is in the state it is in because of the illegals in Kiev well aided by the Right Sector and their would-be shock troops. The West jumped ion that bandwagon and made it worse.
Russia is still a big debtor to Russia...
You're right!
:yes:
Spiegel claims Germans romanticize Russia
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/why-it-is-time-for-germany-to-stop-romanticizing-russia-a-963284.html
Since the start of the Crimea crisis, we've constantly heard that Germans somehow understand Russians. Indeed, hardly any other view has been repeated as often. But nothing could possibly be more misleading. The Germans don't understand Russians: They understand less about the Russians than they do about the British, Spanish or French.
It's true that Germany had a special relationship with the Russian Empire long ago. Germans served as czars and czarinas, once as the Russian prime minister, and they were officers, doctors and teachers in the royal court in St. Petersburg. German engineers operated ore mines in the Ural Mountains, German farmers plowed land along the Volga and Dnieper rivers. In turn, they were introduced to Russian writers. Pushkin introduced Germans to the strange but likable Russian soul. And cities like Moscow and St. Petersburg wouldn't be what they are today without Germans. That's the romanticized side of German-Russian relations.
Then came the wars of the past century and the devastation the Germans unleashed on the Soviet Union. Since then, the image Germans have of Russia is inaccurate.
Spiegel claims Germans romanticize Russia
Another article for consumption abroad. Naive to say the least.
WTF have actual Germans in common with the times Germans served as czars and czarinas? I would bet most don't even know about the relationship with the Russian Empire at that time.
However Germans don't fall as easy in the media propaganda trap unleashed by their(?) mass media as expected.
Contrary to some others we are interested in good neighborhood with all European countries, good economic relations profitable for both sides and stability in Europe. That's what most Germans think.
We wouldn't experience this crisis without foreign meddling in the Ukraine (F*ck the EU)!
It's absurd to blame Putin or Russia for the fascist coup in Kiev. That was the starting point after all. No sane European can have any interest in the destabilization of Europe! Wonder whos interests a new Iron Curtain will serve ...
Sorry to say, but the article explains a lot about your irrational stance, Krake. It's weird to see this kind of attitude in action in a German, but this is merely because I am unfamiliar with Germans in real life.
However, I am perfectly well familiar with Russians and this very same attitude is mirrored in Russians. Russians admire German robust industries and effective economy. They glorify "German order", discipline and cleanliness. The humongously popular TV series Семнадцать мгновений весны (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_Moments_of_Spring) gave rise to a weird subtle subculture of cultish Reich-worship in Soviet Russia. This and other films like this - not directly condemning, but more like depicting facts of war where "strength of the soul" (душа) matters - inspired awe mixed with fear towards Germans. This is common to Russians and Germans: When they say "respect" and "understanding" they mean awe mixed with fear - subconscious and definitely unacknowledged fear, but evident enough to bystanders.
It's absurd to blame Putin or Russia for the fascist coup in Kiev. That was the starting point after all.
Was it? Who in this thread ever blamed Putin for the Kiev coup? All I've seen is blaming the you ess of aye for it. I personally see no reason why the blame for the coup should be placed too far or high or wide. The coup, in my view, is essentially an internal matter of Ukrainians. The unfortunate consequence of the Maidan riots was weakening of the power in Kiev and the persistent image of illegitimacy. This image serves as an excellent pretext for Russian invasion and annexation of Crimea and their further aspirations to destabilise and gobble up Ukraine. I understand all this full well. This perfectly mirrors what happened in the Baltic countries in 1939-1940. It's all okay, easily understood.
However, the part that I am uncomfortable with is speak of "understanding" in the sense as if the pretext would somehow JUSTIFY the invasion and annexation. Maybe an analogy is helpful here. Let's say a bully and a weakling meet. The bully beats up the weakling. I say I understand this, because the bully is the bully and the weakling is the weakling. The beating is the obvious result when they meet, because both act as per their evident role. This is merely natural, trivial even.
Now, the part that I don't get is an outsider's notion that the bully's action is justified - that to "understand" the bully means to say he is doing the right thing and the weakling deserves what he's getting. This is how your "understanding" of Putin appears, Krake. But how is it justified to side with the bully? For me it's self-evident to condemn the bully even under the threat of becoming the next weakling under attack. Bullying is unjustifiable to me.
Any bullying is from the West.
The previous government in Ukraine duly and properly elected even with flaws was prepared to discuss all sorts of options but the protests in Kiev were duly taken over by the fundamental and very extreme ne-Nazis. Immediately America and Europe threw in it's lot for a coup. The grounds are flimsy. They equally knew fine well that much of the rest of that country was not party to the Kiev take over but neither cared a damn. They seen it as a country with a shadow of Russia over it and that was enough to get them stirred up because they are still in an out-dated mode on Russia.
Dis Kiev care a damn but the east and south of the country? no they did not they were being simply selfish.Dozens of killins along with buildings damaged, etc. Now when protests erupt in the east because folk there had voted in a government properly they are automatically the bad guys. Ukraine will never be part of NATO that long overdue expensive waste of time. Neither is the EEC dishing out membership applications nor money when it comes to that. There is that billion assured by America which is still dwarfed by Russian money. Not only in loans but in special oil discounts that even they were not met with! And because Russia is withdrawing the discount they are the bad guys!
It is also okay to support a violent overtthro of a democratically elected system in Kiev but declare that protests ine east are terrorists. What a dark political comedy and Ukraine would have went under if Russia had permanently stopped oil. As for the anti-Russian propaganda it rises to ridiculous lengths. There was a time when I had a regard for Willam Hague the Foeign Secretary but not now. There he was on televison stating that it was evident Russia was involved in the east disturbances. Well like the Russia Foreign Secretary, I wait for the evidence. The Kiev government even claimed they had a Russian espionage caught and when the man;s ID was shown it had printed on - "Occupation: Spy!!. Haha, it is so ridiculous.
With the completion of the alternative two routes for oil to Europe the continent will be safe for it's power but Ukraine will suffer. Whe the country gets an IMF loan they will not believe the pain they are going to have and some will envy the Crimea. We in the West should have kept away but our hypocrisy in political affairs is dastardly.
Any bullying is from the West.
---- because Russia is withdrawing the discount they are the bad guys!
I wonder how you define bullying in this case. I define it as international aggression, namely invasion ans annexation.
Withdrawing the discount is only indirectly connected. It's like threatening to take away someone's money if the victim doesn't let himself be beaten up, then beating him up and taking the money anyway. And let's consider this: Russia got Crimea. Was it okay to take it free of charge and then demand some further debt? Doesn't the transition of Crimea from Ukraine to Russia balance at least some account?
The Crimean peninsula itself had been ruled by Russia for centuries until Nikita Khrushchev gave it away to Ukraine in 1954, a move that was deeply unpopular in Russia – some say Khrushchev was drunk at the time –and most ordinary Russians – as well, it seems, as a majority of Crimeans themselves – would like to see it returned to Russia. Putin is also off the hook over the Ukrainian economy. Previously, Russia had agreed to bail out Kiev, but it seems that now this cost will be borne by European taxpayers.
BTW, Russia doesn't owe a single UAH (Ukrainian Hryvna) to the Ukraine for Crimea. Crimea belongs to the Crimeans and they choosed to be part of Russia. Period.
The dogs bark but the caravan moves on.
Very wrong view there, Krake. Your logic ("ruled for centuries") handily gives Germany full right over entire Middle-Europe until Russian border - and the exact same right to Russia until German border. This proves you have no concept of jurisdiction and international diplomacy and you care zilch for people's ethnic and territorial self-determination. The transition of Crimea was the exact same scam that occurred in the Baltic countries in 1940.
Now for something completely different: Three Youtube videos from Nikolayev, Ukraine.
Жители Николаева намерены вернуться на площадь (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3H72I0Yym0)This is from the main Russian news show Vesti reporting from Nikolayev, Ukraine. Here at first you see a guy who was supposedly peacefully demonstrating against Kiev govt when "they began shooting non-stop" and now he is in the hospital with brain concussion and other damage.
Немецкий наемник привез на Украину 500 тысяч евро для «Правого сектора» НТВ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SJsqqAog3Q) This is from the news of NTV, a major channel in Russia, originally (around the regime change) it was a fair alternative source. Here you see an interview with a German citizen who was smuggled in from the West with 500,000 euros in pocket to support the Right Sector, to arm them. However, he landed in the middle of local resistance and is now in hospital in Nikolayev, Ukraine.
09.04.2014 НИКОЛАЕВ, ДЕРЖИСЬ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGklZkIjq0w)This is the Crimean news channel citing events in Nikolayev, Ukraine. First it shows a riot (mild fight) involving supposed Maidan supporters and opponents, and then an interview with one of the victims of the Maidan supporters, a doctor, a local native. Here the interviewed supposedly popular local hero talks about extortion by the Maidan supporters to go over to their side for some money.
What's the funny thing with these videos? It's the same guy intervewed in those different capacities. These videos have been pointed out courtesy of Forbes. I hope people here will be more critical of their sources henceforth and think through who they are siding with and why. I personally have been well schooled by the USSR media to be suspicious and critical of any and all sources.
What's the funny thing with these videos?
It has been covered (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-angeblicher-agent-aus-deutschland-in-putins-fernsehsender-a-964201.html) already by German media.
Both NTW and Rossija-1 admitted officially that they have been fooled and ask for understanding. Such things can happen in chaos if statements are hard to verify.
Spiegel claims Germans romanticize Russia
Spieglein, Spieglein an der Wand
machst Du auch Propaganda
im ganzen Land? :P
A good reading for better understanding the gap between German readers and their media reporting on Ukraine and Russia.
Unfortunately, the article is in German. However it should be fine for you at least :)
German media on the warpath with its readers
Auf Kriegsfuß mit den Lesern (http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/41/41507/1.html)
What's the funny thing with these videos?
It has been covered (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-angeblicher-agent-aus-deutschland-in-putins-fernsehsender-a-964201.html) already by German media.
Both NTW and Rossija-1 admitted officially that they have been fooled and ask for understanding. Such things can happen in chaos if statements are hard to verify.
Who got fooled and by whom? Think about it. Did Obama pull the trick and Russian and Crimean reporters were innocent here?
Things like this were routine in USSR. It's a tradition in Russian journalism.
German media on the warpath with its readers
Auf Kriegsfuß mit den Lesern (http://www.heise.de/tp/artikel/41/41507/1.html)
That begins with an argumentum ad populum and ends in a kind of tu quoque tirade against America (conveniently called the West, as if Germany weren't part of the West). All of which is pretty irrelevant, really. I mean, what's the argument there? America has done some things, even though Germany protested against it, therefore it doesn't matter if Russia does some things too and Germany shouldn't protest at all? It just makes no sense to me.
Election campaign has just started in Kiev.
Radicals have attacked two Ukrainian presidential candidates. One of them, Oleg Tsarev, was “brutally beaten,” claimed the candidate’s press office. The radicals poured green antiseptic solution and flour on another candidate, Mikhail Dobkin.
source (http://rt.com/news/ukraine-presidential-candidates-attacked-516/)
No reporting from venerable Western media outlets as yet. Only source I found with Google was RussiaToday.
Who knows, maybe it's just Russian (fake) propaganda and nothing did happen in reality.
It's there in BBC for example, just not in the headlines: Ukraine crisis: Obama urges Putin to rein in separatists (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27030652)
In other developments ----
A presidential candidate from eastern Ukraine, Oleh Tsarev, regarded as pro-Russian, appeared before reporters in Kiev with a black eye after being assaulted by protesters as he left a TV studio
Anyway, Krake, it's notable that you don't address the principles. You just add more trivia into the mix. There's already enough data on the events to have come up with a principled stance.
It just makes no sense to me.
It's a good example on how perspective can change from
Anvers to
Francfort.
Welcome to Europe :cheers:
Zhirinovsky shares your perspective, Krake http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMMZ__qV1CI
Well, maybe "Ukraine is not a country" goes too far for you, but he immediately continues "it's a territory where angry fanatics temporarily grabbed power" and there you are in perfect agreement. And he snipes against United States as per his normal routine. Plus he is a liberal democrat, not some nazi, so he is okay, right?
As for me, I don't call this thing perspective. There's right view and wrong view. The right view may not be emotionally or intellectually easy, but the wrong view is easy enough to detect. And it's always right to abandon the wrong view.
Kramatorsk: Ukrainian soldier pointing his gun at anti-Kiev protesters. Or should I better say he is pointing his gun at terrorists or Russian undercover agents to match Kiev's and Obama's perspective?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-684290-galleryV9-brxv.jpg&hash=08e57cbdbd30a3785cb015b9b1e2f314" rel="cached" data-hash="08e57cbdbd30a3785cb015b9b1e2f314" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-684290-galleryV9-brxv.jpg)
source (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/ukraine-kampf-um-den-flughafen-kramatorsk-fotostrecke-113491.html)
Edit:
Yet another image showing the Ukrainian anti-terror troops fighting armed terrorists and Russian agents.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn1.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-684578-galleryV9-yjyt.jpg&hash=14d7cf97ce913bdd4d7b5545943fafea" rel="cached" data-hash="14d7cf97ce913bdd4d7b5545943fafea" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-684578-galleryV9-yjyt.jpg)
source (http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-ukrainische-soldaten-wechseln-mit-panzern-die-seiten-fotostrecke-113508-7.html)
In journalism, framing is everything. You should have seen it in the interviews with Andrei Petkov. For the consumers of journalism, the trick to get to truth is to identify the framing and drop it.
The "anti-terrorist operation" initiated by Kiev and justified by the USA has started.
According to DerSpiegel (http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/ukraine-panzer-der-ukrainischen-armee-wechseln-seiten-a-964690.html), six Ukrainian tanks switched sides.
According to TheGuardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/16/pro-russian-separatists-seize-ukrainian-armoured-vehicles), pro-Russian armed separatists have seized five armoured personnel carriers and a tank from the Ukrainian army.
Whom to believe?
According to RussiaToday (http://rt.com/news/ukrainian-tanks-kramatorsk-civilians-840/), six Ukrainian tanks switched sides but we are always told that RT is plain Putin propaganda, so watching the video might help.
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRMnItGhhi8[/video]
Whom to believe?
You mean you have no idea how to be impartial and objective?
Unfortunately there are no funny things to report from the Ukraine, except maybe this one:
Ukrainian PM greets Swiss president with Danish flag
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.rt.com%2Ffiles%2Fnews%2F25%2F35%2F00%2F00%2Fyatsenyuk-1.si.jpg&hash=2b1ca057e67fe36cec53d5ed5999f12b" rel="cached" data-hash="2b1ca057e67fe36cec53d5ed5999f12b" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cdn.rt.com/files/news/25/35/00/00/yatsenyuk-1.si.jpg)
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/04/ukraine-leaders-propose-constitutional-change-2014418152625807465.html
We're dealing with a part of the world where propaganda, staged photography, lies and more lies from all of the participants are only what you'd expect. Yes, Krake, that means I don't buy those photos at face value. Seeing can be incredibly deceiving when a political point is to be made, and both sides have heavy interest in making us believe what they want us to believe. A staged photo op is easy. Knowing more of the story behind the photos-- the story that won't be told but is the actual truth-- would be necessary.
Ever see "The Running Man"? You really should. Back then when that movie was made, editing wasn't as easy as it is today but was remotely possible. Today, we have tools that make something like that frighteningly easy to do.
We're dealing with a part of the world where propaganda, staged photography, lies and more lies from all of the participants are only what you'd expect. Yes, Krake, that means I don't buy those photos at face value.
Then skip the photos and read the many posts that are available.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&oq=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&oq=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8)
We're dealing with a part of the world where propaganda, staged photography, lies and more lies from all of the participants are only what you'd expect. Yes, Krake, that means I don't buy those photos at face value.
Then skip the photos and read the many posts that are available.
https://www.google.com/search?q=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&oq=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8 (https://www.google.com/search?q=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&oq=Ukrainian+PM+greets+Swiss+president&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8)
That photo of the two presidents meeting I sort of buy. Standard stuff, we have photos of Obama meeting with world leaders all over the place so this isn't that remarkable. It's the other photos-- the ones showing the soldier pointing a weapon at unarmed civilians-- that I think might be staged.
Photographs may tell a story, but they're poor interpreters of complex ideas and events. Even carefully construed texts, reports and books can be problematic. Experts often disagree. Not so fools, who are quick to...
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1krxVSX5H0[/video]
Russia's foreign ministry has promised it would offer strong assistance to Ukraine to overcome its crisis, but emphasised that the ultimate responsibility for reducing tensions lies with Ukrainians rather than outsiders.
The statement on Saturday came two days after top diplomats from Ukraine, Russia, the United States and the European Union called for an array of actions including the disarming of armed groups and the freeing of public buildings taken over by people on both sides.
In the statement, the Russian Foreign Ministry said deputy minister Grigory Karasin met with Oleg Tsaryov, a pro-Russia candidate in the Ukrainian presidential election that is to take place on May 25.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/04/russia-help-ukraine-overcoming-crisis-2014419125241294138.html
Photographs may tell a story, but they're poor interpreters of complex ideas and events.
So, you are a photograph.
I mean a poor interpreter of complex ideas and events.
Thanks for explaining it for me.
So, you are a photograph.
I mean a poor interpreter of complex ideas and events.
Such as poverty in Portugal, both monetary and intellectual.
I do a bit of photography. Not very good, but still, a bit of photography. Enough to know that some photos are real and some are staged. The ones showing the soldier pointing a weapon at the civilians just looks staged.
We won't even get into "Photoshopped" photos where reality really gets mind-warped, that's a whole different kettle of fish.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FaE37Vai.jpg&hash=ed356040f06b0a636a44b7cf7c16b5c5" rel="cached" data-hash="ed356040f06b0a636a44b7cf7c16b5c5" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/aE37Vai.jpg)
I'd like somebody to explain all of the photos of Putin wrestling with bears, riding tigers and swimming the Pacific. Who is the intended audience for all of that crap?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-CwOKQ7p-V8A%2FUAlmuibn1eI%2FAAAAAAAAAtQ%2FZjFhrNAks1U%2Fs400%2Fputin_1768930b.jpg&hash=aea4442ca4a59008816fd096bbb3bdfc" rel="cached" data-hash="aea4442ca4a59008816fd096bbb3bdfc" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CwOKQ7p-V8A/UAlmuibn1eI/AAAAAAAAAtQ/ZjFhrNAks1U/s400/putin_1768930b.jpg)
"Advantage: Putin" hardly. He is weakened. Most analysts tend to agree on "Advantage: Xi".
:devil: Xi whiz, do you really think so? :devil:
Nah, too glib of you by far, jax. It is the media and politicians speak that brains you into such. With Russia and China becoming closer things will carry on. We in the West whether the EEC or the USA are deep in money pits and hardly on a good moral standing. The sheer hypocrisy over Ukraine is breath taking. In Kiev a crowd took over buildings and dozens were killed and injured. The West thought that brilliant. Now the Ukrainians in the southeast take over buildings and they are automaticall wrong? They were never included in the take over and want nothing to do with the amateurs who are running things in the country. We try to find every little thing to snipe at one half of Ukraine which did not take part in the illegal overthrow of a democratically elected government. Some of the stuff comig out of Kiev and the West is so infantile and bias and the media is as bad.
As it happens some two thirds of those protesting in the east of the country want to remain part of the nation but with wider local autonomy and why not? That is the part of the country that dishes out money to Kiev and gets little back. The weird crowd in the Ukrainian government cannot give orders to the army because the army has whole sections that will not take part if attacking fellow citizens. One group actually defected. Because of the great number of Russian speakers in Ukraine our propaganda batters it out that Russia is stirring it up. Kind of odd baloney that as they wanted the democratically elected government to continue and they are the bad guys.
That country is none of the business of the EEC, USA or NATO. They should sod off and supporting that illegal bunch ifn Kiev is a disgrace.
"Advantage: Putin" hardly. He is weakened. Most analysts tend to agree on "Advantage: Xi".
Indeed, the great winner seems to be Xi, just by doing nothing except for smiling politely.
- Putin's approval at home is larger than ever. However, economic sanctions and isolation from Europe will have a negative impact on Russia.
Russia will have to look eastwards. Xi is waiting with a bright grin on his face. A close partner with plenty of oil and gas. On top of that, the prospect for some sophisticated (military) technology, China was denied to acquire from the West.
- From the very beginning, the USA had nothing to lose. If it succeeds to torpedo European economic relations with Russia and succeeds to bind its European allies tighter at the transatlantic leash, then it was a successfull operation. Things look promising so far for the USA.
- Europe can only lose. Torpedoed relations with Russia will backslash and hit Europe as well. Germany for instance might revise its economic growth for 2014 from 1,9% to 1% and its exports growth from 7,2% to 3,6%, due to the Ukrainian crisis. However not all European countries will be affected alike. I assume that Liechtenstein will be less affected than Germany.
- Absolute losers are the Ukrainians. A bankrupt country on the verge of a civil war...
I'd like to revisit our hero, Mr. Snowden, for a moment. Putin's guest has commented on the softball question on surveillance that he asked Putin in an interview. I like Snowden, but this shows that he's playing in a game that's a bit over his head.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/18/vladimir-putin-surveillance-us-leaders-snowden (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/18/vladimir-putin-surveillance-us-leaders-snowden)
Breaking News!
Pro-Russian militias infiltrated by US spies!
(https://vivaldi.net/media/com_easysocial/photos/7137/39011/0ac479217deec43335f7dd037cec8920_original.jpg)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FcWdOk4T.jpg&hash=b78c2e8ca712dd9ae25da0a955452b5e" rel="cached" data-hash="b78c2e8ca712dd9ae25da0a955452b5e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/cWdOk4T.jpg)
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/laughing024.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/big%20laugh%20007.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lolfun.gif)
Breaking News!
Pro-Russian militias infiltrated by US spies!
(https://lh4.ggpht.com/pqspRrj8m9gC_tARqdpmehxqh57Kc8wNn9JEvFokoaVn4NtoT0pTqQqKHVqQO-iliORc=s85)
In case anybody wonders, that's not a hat...it's my hair!
Russia will have to look eastwards. Xi is waiting with a bright grin on his face. A close partner with plenty of oil and gas. On top of that, the prospect for some sophisticated (military) technology, China was denied to acquire from the West.
- From the very beginning, the USA had nothing to lose. If it succeeds to torpedo European economic relations with Russia and succeeds to bind its European allies tighter at the transatlantic leash, then it was a successfull operation. Things look promising so far for the USA.
That first point directly contradicts the second, doesn't it?
Not necessarily.
Isolating Russia from Europe seems to have priority. Besides, the upcoming new iron curtain the US is pushing for, should be moved eastwards as much as possible.
Zbigniew Brzezinski gave less importance to China on his strategic chessboard. Things have changed a little since. A revived Sino-Russian alliance won't please the USA for sure but there is little they can do about it. Eroding 'influence' over Europe was a much bigger concern.
The US, the EU, Russia, and China are in a state of active coopetition, they have more interests in common than opposing interests, but they have plenty of both.
The US and China have been coopetive allies against Soviet Union during almost the whole existence of the Soviet Union, however this does not extend to Russia. Basically it will be in the US strategic interest to have Russia tying the knot with EU.
It is the Anti-Americans' wet dream to have an alliance against the US. It is not likely to happen. A warmer relation between Russia and China is well possible, and would make some sense, but is tricky.
Chinese foreign policy so far has not been very adventurous and not very flexible. China has a number of foreign policy goals they act within. For more unexpected events, like in Ukraine, they waffle. They have interests in Ukraine and in Russia, and they wouldn't want the interests in one damage the other.
US meddling in the area will only make us look like bigger fools than we are...at least some of us.
Obama's red lines are getting more and more annoying.
Does anybody here really care which way Ukraine goes? Count me in the "I Don't Care" camp.
Sure I do. Ukraine may not matter much to the US, but it matters a lot to the EU and to Russia, as well as to the Ukrainians.
Furthermore I live in Sweden, Kiev is closer to Stockholm than Brussels is (by about 10 miles). Besides the Swedish foreign minister (https://twitter.com/carlbildt) has been itching for a fight with Russia for 20 years or so, and Sweden and Poland are the two countries most active in integrating Ukraine with the EU.
Like most Europeans I have never been to the Ukraine (too much visa hassle at the time, and I have actively avoided Kiev as a transfer airport, the airlines and airport is considered about the worst in Europe), though I have been within a few miles of the border, and of course (like most Europeans?) I have met a good number of Ukrainians.
...Kiev is closer to Stockholm than Brussels is (by about 10 miles).
:lol:
Considering the roads issues, the things can appear exactly the opposite. Unless you're gonna turn into a bird and fly over. :lol:
I have actively avoided Kiev as a transfer airport, the airlines and airport is considered about the worst in Europe
I have been on a transfer flight in Kiev airport less than a year ago. Indeed the worst one among those I have visited. Then again, I have not visited too many airports.
I have not been to most of the 25 cities to see before I die. I don't care. I'll die anyway.
Sure I do. Ukraine may not matter much to the US, but it matters a lot to the EU and to Russia, as well as to the Ukrainians.
Furthermore I live in Sweden, Kiev is closer to Stockholm than Brussels is (by about 10 miles). Besides the Swedish foreign minister] (https://twitter.com/carlbildt) has been itching for a fight with Russia for 20 years or so, and Sweden and Poland are the two countries most active in integrating Ukraine with the EU.
I wouldn't say that the US doesn't care about Ukraine, which is a very vague concept. Its more a personal matter to me, and I'd guess to most ordinary people, but I really don't even know about that. I'd be interested in knowing where most people here would place Ukraine on a map of the world. Understandably, that wouldn't be the case in Europe.
Take a quick look at this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/ukraine-poll_n_4891224.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/03/ukraine-poll_n_4891224.html)
When you say that Carl Bildt is itching for a fight with Russia, what do you mean? Certainly not one that involves weapons. Please clarify that.
Broadly speaking, this issue is too complicated for me given my limited understanding of the complexity of the region. As an example, I know as much about South Ossetia as I know about dark energy. However, given Putin's recent declarations about Russian speaking people in the regions outside of Russia, I guess that South Ossetia might become a part of this entanglement.
Obama's sending of 600 troops to Poland for "military exercises" is a real laugher.
==================================
On an unrelated matter, but one that speaks to how ordinary people assimilate information about the universe, there's this gem which is related to the way that religious beliefs color other understandings.
A majority of Americans don't believe in the prevailing theory in physics about the origins of our universe: that it began 13.8 billion years ago with a massive explosion called the Big Bang.
Fifty-one percent of those surveyed said they were "not too confident or not at all confident" in the Big Bang Theory, according to a new AP/GFK poll . Those surveyed were least confident in the Big Bang Theory than in any of the other statements they were asked about that scientists would consider factual.
When you say that Carl Bildt is itching for a fight with Russia, what do you mean? Certainly not one that involves weapons. Please clarify that.
Broadly speaking, this issue is too complicated for me given my limited understanding of the complexity of the region. As an example, I know as much about South Ossetia as I know about dark energy. However, given Putin's recent declarations about Russian speaking people in the regions outside of Russia, I guess that South Ossetia might become a part of this entanglement.
Obama's sending of 600 troops to Poland for "military exercises" is a real laughter.
No, I don't think anyone is gunning for another Russian-Swedish war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_Russia_and_Sweden) (and then again, Rus (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=russia) is thought to originally refer to Swedes).
The European views on Ukraine range from Ersi to Krake, with Sweden on the hawkish side. Fellow Scandinavians Denmark and Norway on the contrary are on the doveish side. They have made a point not to stand by Sweden in Scandinavian solidarity for that reason. That is a little intriguing in that not only are Denmark and Norway the most enthusiastic members of the NATO alliance, the current Secretary General of NATO is a Dane, and is about to be replaced by a Norwegian. He used to be the Prime Minister of Norway until an adverse electoral outcome a few months ago, long before that he campaigned to have Norway leave NATO.
NATOs next Secretary General Stoltenberg is responsible person - President Putin (http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_04_19/NATOs-next-Secretary-General-Stoltenberg-is-responsible-persin-President-Putin-4062/)
Anyway, as a rule the closer the country is to Ukraine (and thus also the former Soviet Union when it existed) the more more interested it is to have Ukraine integrated with EUrope. Germany may be an exception.
I wouldn't say that the US doesn't care about Ukraine, which is a very vague concept.
For sure it does. You don't invest 5 billions for a regime change in a country that doesn't matter to you.
Most people in the USA might have problems with placing the Ukraine on a map but those people neither define the interests of the USA nor do they define geostrategic priorities. All what most people know about the Ukraine (not only in the USA) is what they read about it in their media. Very few people will take the time to consult alternative sources as well.
Let's take the Iraq war as an example. Most Americans were for it. I can't really blame them for that. Their only source of information about Iraq was from their massmedia which they took as the only possible truth. If someone would teach your grandchildren that the globe is flat then they would grow up with that believe.
Göbbels was a master of propaganda. Imagine one like him with the potentialities of todays massmedia.
Obama's sending of 600 troops to Poland for "military exercises" is a real laugher.
I would advise him to send 60,000 instead of 600 :) Wonder if it would make any difference (except Poland would have to feed them by out-of-pocket payment).
The USA also announced that it will help the Ukrainian government with 50,000,000 USD. In comparison, those 600 troops are a vast army :D
Anyway, as a rule the closer the country is to Ukraine (and thus also the former Soviet Union when it existed) the more more interested it is to have Ukraine integrated with EUrope. Germany may be an exception.
It depends on what you mean by "Ukraine integrated with EUrope".
From an US perspective it means Nato land graced with some US military bases.
As I mentioned before, our main interest is stability in Europe and good partnership/economic relations with
all neighbors.
A new iron curtain won't serve Europe's interests!
BTW, aside of what the USA, Sweden, Poland, Denmark, Norway or Germany wants - does anybody give a shit about what Ukrainians want?
They could have had the best of both sides. A trade union with the EU and at the same time one with Russia.
Instead the Ukraine was ripped by foreign interests and is now on the verge of a civil war.
Excercises are going on all the time. With great timing there was a NATO exercise with 16,000 people not that far from Russia about the same time as Crimea changed hands. These things are pre-planned for a long time, and Russia would have been there as observers had they not been expelled for un-NATO-like behaviour in the Ukraine.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uqXo6ul03Q[/video]
As officer guy said on the above video "[Afghanistan] has been important for the Alliance for more than 10 years now, but it is coming to an end and NATO has challenges in the near area."
As officer guy said on the above video "[Afghanistan] has been important for the Alliance for more than 10 years now, but it is coming to an end and NATO has challenges in the near area."
Not exactly that (in the "omission").
It is "[focusing on Afghanistan] has been important" what he said, because "which" (among others) can "placehold" not only for a noun-word or noun phrase, but also for an entire preceding clause's "summary" meaning.
Yet one more Grammar Nazi, this time from Russia.
Carl Bildt is not really itching for a war. If a war broke out, he would be the first to run and hide. It's just that he has industrial interests behind his back. He calculates his statements and activities so as to generate turnover for Saab http://www.saabgroup.com/
Mr. Bildt would be a Republican darling in the U.S.
And he didn't understand a couple things. The major problem with Jax's sentence isn't what Josh thought it was. If one wants to be a true grammar Nazi, one would point out that the sentence is a little ambiguous in its meaning. I'll let Josh figure out why as a pop quiz. The casual forum reader can comprehend it fine, but for more formal writing, the meaning needs to be more precise. But who rights perfectly all forums all the time anyway ;) Now somebody can try to grammar nazi over starting a sentence with a conjunction. The second thing the grammar nazi doesn't understand is the more one begins to understand English grammar, the more one understands that it's fairly loose and changeable - which explains why it's technically now correct grammar to start a sentence with a a conjunction. Many grammar rules taught in elementary schools and English a Second Language students are more style guides than rules.
Let's see if I got this right.
We have:
- What Officer Guy wanted to say
- What Officer Guy actually said
- What NATO presented him as saying on YouTube
- What I condensed into "[Afghanistan]" of the first part of the sentence into
- What Josh thought that meant and how veracious that was in terms of 3.
- What Sanguinemoon's reflections on Josh's corrections imply.
Now, I happen to agree with myself and not with Josh. And I am studiously non-aligned with Sanguinemoon's premises. But I am willing to concur that "A focus on Afghanistan has been important for the Alliance the last 10 years" is a truthier statement than "Afghanistan has been important for the Alliance the last 10 years", no matter what Officer Guy said or thought he did. Furthermore I am willing to string up conjunctions as hostages in front of my sentences in support of these positions, as many as it takes. So military exercises just happen, but postings on Youtube and in this esteemed forum is done for a reason. And I think I have incurred a glossal adhesive fracture.
Next NATOfghanistan video out. Any takers?
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQhO0wH7Rh8[/video]
I understood what he said the way I explained. Up to you...
The tripe couldn't get much worse.
There was Kerry on television spouting about the terrorists in the east and how despicable they were. Uh? When the nonsense went on in the Kiev square and seen dozens of people shot dead, etc he was waxing lyrical about peaceful protesters(?). Anything of the tripe that comes out of Kiev is taken as some form of gospel by him - no checking - nothing. Interesting that Vice-President Biden should go to Ukraine to obviously encourage the Ukrainian Army to swing to the east. And on top of that the head of the CIA. It is almost unbelievable that he goes out of his way to condemn anyone in the east using Molotovs or similar as a disgrace but when it was done in Kiev that was somehow different. Every time some nation that does not accept the US's rule of the planet will suffer blockades or be infiltrated, de-stabilised or invaded. Coincidentally this is followed up by the corporates of course as is the usual. It is morally justified as it is to protect "US interests." However if Russia talks about interests that is a no-no!
As for slating Russia for motivating the trouble in the east is more propaganda bunkum. The Russian foreign minister has stated publicly on the media that ALL groups who are armed should disarm. What don't people understand about that statement? And why is the Right Sector not included as they have said in no uncertain terms they will NOT disarm. Ineed they are organisng a force to go east to do more stringing up Next month Russia pulls the plug on the discounted gas that Ukraine seems to think is an entitlement. As I pointed out earlier the revolters in Kiev did not take in the people in the east/southeast at all but just did their own thing. Those in the east had taken part in a properly run election and are supposed to just accept an illegal takeover whether they like it or not? And why is Kerry yakking on about the terrible separatists in th east of Ukraine. The majority of the objectors there have not stated they want to be part of Russia but a federal system. The west of the country wants to be with Europe and the rest want to stay cloe to Russia.
Trouble with Obama and Kerry is they are miffed that there is a country that they cannot control in there inbuilt attitude to influencing the world. as a divine right. Even when you do get a media outlet saying they have found out some stuff has been a lying propaganda, Kerry ignores this and continues his contemptuous nonsense . There are plenty of countries around the world who are wary of the US lead in this saga and contradict the guff about everyone is right behind DC. Equally if the utter hypocrisy of the bunch of idiots in Kiev aided by their Nazi allies in the Right keep being stupid and over the top they will recive a heavy clump if Russia has had enough. The propaganda being dished out to people in the West is so ridiculous but not eryone allows themselves to be treated like children.
At least they are united by the Orthodox Church.
Ukraine unrest: Orthodox Easter messages show divide (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27093029)
Orthodox Easter messages from patriarchs in Kiev and Moscow have highlighted the deep division in Ukraine, where a tense stand-off is continuing in the east.
Patriarch Filaret, a Ukrainian Orthodox Church leader, accused Russia of "aggression" and "evil".
Russian Church Patriarch Kirill asked God to end the designs of those who wanted to rip apart Russia and Ukraine.
Pro-Russian activists in the east continue to occupy government offices.
Patriarch Filaret heads a Kiev church which broke away from the Moscow Patriarchate. A rival Ukrainian Orthodox Church - reckoned to have more followers - remains affiliated to Moscow and is recognised by the wider Eastern Orthodox community.
Unfortunate when such things happen but the country is deeply divided so shows that.
It is a ridiculous situation right now anyway. An un-official government in Kiev takes over and moans that a large part of the east which did not support non-democratic moves is doing what it did (without dozens being killed). Kerry still looks like a fool and in past times DC just got away with any propaganda but now it no longer has that forte so no doubt a bit peeved at being challenged. One leading US papar did the honest thing and retract pictures given to them as they were fake. Kerry just mouths what that pain in the neck Ukrainian Prime Minister says. The answer is as plain as the nose thinking. The west wants to be in with Europe and the east wants to be pals with Russia. A federal system is the only answer. The east isn't asking to be part of Russia although you would think that by the ridiculous propaganda from the West and our political leaders. How can people wanting a federal system in their deeply divided country be "separatists" when they obviously still want to be in Ukraine??
Overall the morality of the news speak is disgusting, It is the east of Ukraine that produces the money for the country not the hell bent west wanting to be European and US lackeys. Russia went out of it's way to give Kiev a discount on the gas supply and yet still did not get paid now they are the bad guys for saying they have had enough. At the same time Kiev has been cutting off water supplies to Crimea while moaning about the fuel discount situation. I still say that Kerry looks like a buffoon and practices that direction well. He is also wrong in thinking all the world is behind this latest US imperialist intervention. When you hear of the stuff coming out of Kiev and his automatic tripe in going along with it you have to wonder about sense. So let's have enough of the two-faced stuff from the West and talk about the "Separatists" and even more so when you consider how the mob in the capital took over the country. Even more so as most of the country's income comes from the east which everyone neatly ignores. That it is okay for the US to have so-called concerned for it's interests but no-one else has the right only emphasises the hypocrisy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/world/europe/eastern-europe-frets-about-natos-ability-to-curb-russia.html
Western European members of NATO may regard the conflict over Ukraine as remote, an annoying threat to their business ties to Moscow, said Artis Pabriks, who was Latvia’s defense minister until he stepped down in late January. “But for us, it’s not about money, it’s existential,” he said. “You guys may remain with your freedoms, but we may not, so it’s different.”
Latvia's freedom is not under threat so a nonsense. I fail to understand Kerry's intelligence or even sense. He yaks on about the situation in Ukraine being Russia's fault. Now there is a bit of dopiness if every there was one. A bunch of dangerous peoiple take over what started as a rotine protest in Kiev and destroy a properly elected government. They shoot policemn and ogther nationalists and take over buildings. That is perfectly okay for the US, Europe and NATO. At no time was this coup a national event and those in the east and south east of Ukraine who had duly voted in a democratic procedure suddenly found themselves in a junta that had little or no interest in them but only it's own agenda.
The east then gets annoyed at the overthrow of the democratic process and in anger takes over buildings, etc and they are somehow automatically beyond the pale. Because the majority ine the east speak Russian it is laid down that Moscow has created that event. Talk about kindergarten thinking. Considering Russia unlike with others damn well gave Ukraine a dicount on power supplies which Ukraine still couldn't pay - still the same as well as loaniong it money things are being stretched a bit by the West.
Kerry also downright is proved a liar when he rabitted on the media about the Crimea Referendum as having only 2 choices. No it didn't it had THREE. One included remaining in Ukraine and it's constitution. It is this kind of devious rubbish that makes one cringe. The New York Times published pictures of "Russian involvement" and depicted a bearded bloke in them. Then it was later found to be from the Georgia event a few years ago. Did Kerry rtetract his use of the pictures? nope, he didn't. What is also still being ignored is that Russia stated to everyone that ALL armed groups in Ukraine without exception should lay them down. Again suitably sidestepped. Certain countries in Europe came out hard against Russia including places like Rumania and Bulgaria on encouraging sanctions against Russia. However behind the scenes it was found they were only in that mode if Europe supported them financially! Now the West is scathing about Russia pulling the plug on the discounted stuff which is another daftness.
The contemptible and stupid propaganda being waged against Russia is a disgrace. Now let us see what very tight restrictions the IMF is going to press on Ukraine. This is the result of a failed State thinking that the West is it's cure but the economic penalties will kmke things worse there. In the east of Ukraine is where the economy is and it doesn't want Europe
When I watch that damn woman who has been giving out the press conference stuff at the White House it is enough to make you squirm.The deaths in eastern Ukraine were and are being treated differently. It was unfortunate that people die having to jump out of windows and then get beaten to death by rightist Kiev supporters. They even wanted to kill a pregnant woman. Now had that been the eastern protestors we would have much different news issued. It is so hypocritical. Since then i have watched more people (not armed shot and killed by the so-called guard units of Kiev.
The Russians pulled back troops from anywhere near Ukraine and said they wanted ALL civilians with weapons to back off but that is ignored by the White House and it's flunkies in the world. Also ignored were the Russian moves to quieten the situation. Now the US in it's usual imperial role has been organising NATO exercises on the Russian border and facing Crimea. All we have had from both the illegal government in Kiev and the US leadership is a bunch of lies and double-standards of the worst kind. I still await proof that Moscow was involved in what has been going on and the propaganda that Onama and that cther lying creep, Kerry insults the intelligence. It doesn't matter what Russia does as it will be damned anyway because like Chia it cannot be controlled by the American Empire.
It is almost beyond belief that so many in the West go along with an illegitimate Kiev government in Kiev riddled with Nazis and that the east are the bad guys. It is the east that provides for the Ukraine economy and they did not want to be separate but more notice taken of them as they voted in a proper election then got the world taken away by a coup they wanted no part in. If the West is going to continue to ignore the number of deaths Kiev is doing in the east things wil break down. The east wants their language accepted and their place in as I have said ina federal Ukraine but the Kiev gangsters aided by the West led by a two-faced USA may still cause a civil war.
jax might like this: a map of the world according to Putin.
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21601862-why-should-russian-presidents-innovative-attitude-towards-borders-be-restricted
The title has no connection to the bullshit article.
The situation has got worse as I said it might.
The utter hypocrisy and arrogance being given out by that White House lady who does the comments to journalists is unbelievable. I also seen a news item where a Senator asked the Deputy US minister who does foreign affairs if it was true that the Kiev coup lot had a sprinkling of neo-Nazis and she almost squirmed and would not give a proper answer. He also mentioned why she could go on about the peaceful protests in Kiev's mainsquare when we seen policemen get showered with fire and worse.What is also farcical is that Kiev is going bananas on "terrorists" in the eastern half of the country. Can we remind that it was terrorists who stole the democratic process in Kiev and shot dozens.
Not satisifed with the lies from Kiev the "leader"of the "Free West" keeps condemning Russia. This is another insult to intelligence as the Russian Foreign Minister campaigned about having no violence in Ukraine from anyone. President Putin also stated he had no plan to dismember Ukraine and felt that a federal system should be the direction. Instead what we got was a rogue government in Kiev mounting a vicious attack on the east using both the army and the National Guard. This included shooting people going to the referendum. It was the neo-Nazis who attacked the Union building burning people and beating to death those who jumped from the windows. The White House woman said it was unfortunate that people had been killed recently. You can bet if the shoe was on the other foot she would have been bellowing more lies. Again, Russia had strongly urged protestors in the east to avoid a referendum but the West ignored that too. Seems to me that it doesn't matter what Russia does the West has it's own agenda. Now Russia is condemned for stopping gas supplies as they are not getting paid. The US answer was that such a move was ridculous using things to lean on people! Because it uses doubtful tactics it thinks weirdly.
As for the referendums held in two areas (against remember, Putin's wishes) it was okay and of course "perfectly legal£ for the West to immediately accepted the referendum in Kosovo to break from the State of Serbia because it suited. In the last 10 years the US has extended NATO closer and closer to the Russian border. Noises are being made about protecting member States. Eh? No-one has threatened any member of NATO and the latest exercises were in a Baltic State right next the border with Russia! Like all trouble spots the US likes to want to create or use money is involved and it has investments in Ukraine. Now US warships at the Black Sea.
Kiev has no interest in a deal with the east of the country and that is even more stupid considering that is where the best bit of their economy is. Those in the east are angry becaue the democratic process was stolen from them and they were not involved nor asked. It is the old story that democracy is fine in the West as long as the government voted in is in the corner wanted. Indeed I remember when Ireland made a negative referendum. on an EEC situation and encouraged to have another. Austria had a government in modern times that wasn't liked to equally encouraged by Europe to have another election.
This mess has been created by the West supporting an illegal coup and shutting a blind eye to the Nazi involvement because it is all part of the world imperial dominance stance. The West has a lot of blame and now Ukraine will fall apart due to the fact that the coup was not universal. To call the eastern Ukrainians terrorists is so beyond the sense level. Not consulted, ignored in the coup led by the Right Sector and their Nazi associates makes them the bad guys??
jax might like this: a map of the world according to Putin.
http://www.economist.com/news/international/21601862-why-should-russian-presidents-innovative-attitude-towards-borders-be-restricted
Just wonder if jax is a fan of BS maps.
Guess whos mantra "The Economist" is praying? The article is distorted from the very first sentence.
Neither has Putin to justify for Crimea nor did he annexed it.
Crimeans have choosen to be part of the Russian Federation and did vote for accession.
Yanukovych was corrupt but at least he didn't sent armors to fight against those who were against him. The self-appointed pack in Kiev does and I assume "The Economist" would even justify it.
Putin has made this claim about Russian speakers, basically where there are Russian speakers Putin-man will come to their rescue. By referring to people who speak the language rather than people who have Russian citizenship, the structure of the world would have been different. It would be more like the two posts Frenzie made with language maps
, that I couldn't find (the posts, not the maps).
This one with a few more subdivisions looks a tad more interesting:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Ff%2Ff7%2FHuman_Language_Families_Map.PNG&hash=15acf89cbc2aeb3d6d08903cb7a1c9f3" rel="cached" data-hash="15acf89cbc2aeb3d6d08903cb7a1c9f3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Human_Language_Families_Map.PNG) (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Human_Language_Families_Map.PNG)
The article started with the political map of national boundaries and coloured them according to language, and that severely understate how messy the situation would be. The point of the article was that it was messy, but it kind of lost its way when getting in the real situation.
It would be more like the two posts Frenzie made with language maps, that I couldn't find (the posts, not the maps).
That would be here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=296.msg16896#msg16896).
That would be here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=296.msg16896#msg16896).
I properly quoted them. Of course the above map only counts language groups, so German and English would be the same, and French, Spanish, and Portuguese the same, which wouldn't do for imperial purposes.
I properly quoted them. Of course the above map only counts language groups, so German and English would be the same, and French, Spanish, and Portuguese the same, which wouldn't do for imperial purposes.
Sure it does. There's something like the Greater Frankish or Holy Roman Empire in red, and the Roman Empire in blue. ;)
... and of course, Greater Wessex which of course includes England and Germany. :D
I properly quoted them. Of course the above map only counts language groups, so German and English would be the same, and French, Spanish, and Portuguese the same, which wouldn't do for imperial purposes.
Sure it does. There's something like the Greater Frankish or Holy Roman Empire in red, and the Roman Empire in blue. ;)
So which of the new territories in the Americas should get voting rights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince-elector)? We better not repeat the brits' mistake there :right:
Ot#s the sheer hypocrisy of the Ukrainian thing. It is okay for the West to have sanctions on countries it doesn't like or cannot control but if someone else was to do this then they are bad with a capital b. The sheer gall of the White House spokeswoman is ridiculous. No matter what Putin has said about not wanting to annexe the east and his stance on the easterners not having a referendum he gets the blame. There is even talk on further sanctions. When a reporter asked the spokeswoman that perhaps Russia was right in stopping gas because they were not getting paid she just did her ususal silly suff and said using a sanction was wrong!
The Kiev rump is a club of liars and that the West goes along with them and the neo-Nazi support is a disgraceful matter. The nonsense being uttered that the referendums are illegal and against the democratic process is almost laughable. One supposes that destroying the democratic process by Kiev mounting a coup is "different." You couldn't make this up. As I pointed out we glibly accepted the referendum in a Serbian province (Kosovo)because it suited us but when people in Ukraine do this they are the baddies. Putin has never argued for taking chunks out of Ukraine and in fact the opposite saying that federalism should be discussed. Even though he came out against the east detaching itself against his view I wonder if it would have been okay if he had sent in his army to for them to accept the illegalities going on in Kiev/!
Ukraine and especially the Kiev mob have brought this upon themselves. At no time did they care a damn about those outside of the Western leaning west of the country. Neither did it indicate any interest in discussing things with the Russian speakers. Instead they sent in the army, national guard and allowed the Right Sector to drive over and pot shot people. Shooting people going to the poll and allowing the horrific burning and beating to death of people with no guns. Eastern Ukraine was stabbed in the back even though it is the powerhouse of the economy and we have not helped in getting behind the arrogant gits like that acting Prime Minister and his thugs. Russia is being kicked for having enough of the non-payment for it's oil and even though it wasn't interested in taking chunks of the country they are being blamed for everything. France is still selling warships to Russia as it needs the money. Germany istaking a stance that wioll leave doors open because it knows it's economy will suffer. Much of the world is not on the West side either no matter the stuff churned out.
If the Kiev bandits continue to ignore the east and the bullyboy stuff then maybe Putin will be forced to give up his reasonable stance and go to their aid. The morality of us in the West is disgusting. We will get involved in all sorts of conflicts and wars for our interest. In the end the US and the rest of us should keep our noses out of other countries that have nothing to do with us except for the money men who make the profit out of such. Forcing our idea of democracy onothers is a minsomer. Ukraine as one country is probably finished and that is life so live with it folks. When I watched Hague the Foreign Secretary speaking in parliament about the weighted propaganda from the Russian media Iwas flabbergasted when you consider the lies we are getting hit with in the media in the West.
You really do have your knickers on a twist on this one, rjh.
Are you reading old copies of Soviet News or something? If not, where do you get this stuff from. I presume that in the main you and I watch the same news, or do you have other sources of information you might care to share with us?
Anyway you might like to note this:
Salmon asked for help (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/wider-political-news/ukraine-rebels-ask-salmond-to-put-their-case.24219848).
A Scottish thing maybe?
I know of an Alex salmond but a Salmon able to speak/ Wonderful news.
As for knickers in a twist it is the West led as usual by America string that is in a twist. You along with many just want to equate modern Russia with the old USSR which is a silly and I am surprised that you take in the utter tripe of Obama, Kerry and William hague. Tey all lied.
Russia has repeatedly stated that it does not want to annex big chunks of Ukraine. Neityher does it want to intrigate those chunks either. It has also said that everyone including those Russian speakers in Ukraine should not get involved in violence. Does any of the things the West yakked about been accepted? no they still berate Russia even though each time it has show that willingness. What surprises me is that an intelligent man like you just accepts the propaganda that we are dished out by our media here and the USas well as po;iticians.So one has to take it that you accepted it was was right for a protest in Kievthat was taken over by fanataics was fine. That they destroyed a democratically elected system. That the same "regime" is now using the army and very dodgy national guards to shoot their way into those that were NOT part of the de-demcratic process. As for the Russian stance on fuel supplies it is also the bad guy for wanting eventual payment for what it provides. May I also remind that in the previous situation Ukraine siphoned off power illegally. All this is being condemned. Tell you what. you try not paying your gas or electric bill and see what happens to you. It is howeverokay for the West and espeically America to have blockades of gas when it suits. Reducing supplies in countries that are oil suppliers suits America so take that one on board too.
Russia gave Ukraine cheaper supplies than everyone else and still didn't get paid. And while this is STILL going on, the Ukrainian coup gangsters have now cut of the water supply to Crimea. The Crimeans have met with them repeatedly and offered money but just get dance on but that one is okay?? Ukraine was taken over by an illegality and Russia has agreed with set things by the US and EEC but still we get this sneering Cold war attitude. You might want to think why the EEC is considering financial support (given yet?) to a country not part of the damn European farce. With IMF money dished out why hasn't Kiev caught up with power payments? How you can just accept the propaganda that is dished out here in the West says something about unused grey cells! One would have thought you were bright enough to see that the Kiev coup was only supported by one half of the country that the east and southeast was not invited and then expected to go along with the system they had voted for done in. You definitely have a problem boy.
May I say in conclusion that I have knickers to get twisted and thankfully but feel sorry you don't have any so increases your problem.
Chocolate propaganda nr. 1
Putin figurine. Yummy handmade chocolate made in Lviv, Western Ukraine. Kids can literally bite Putin's head off.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.themoscowtimes.com%2Fupload%2Fiblock%2F3b7%2F200514-Chocolate-Putin.jpeg&hash=322dbc78ce645cf1304c169e373168ec" rel="cached" data-hash="322dbc78ce645cf1304c169e373168ec" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/iblock/3b7/200514-Chocolate-Putin.jpeg)
Chocolate propaganda nr. 2
Shokobox.ru is a souvenir chocolate packager based in Saint Petersburg, Russia. Their currently most popular item features a map of Russia and adjacent areas. In the map legend, Russia is designated as "the territory of Russia". Then there's an area called "New territories". If you know geography, you know what place that is. The rest of the adjacent world is designated as "prospective areas".
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fshokobox.ru%2Fmedia%2Fwysiwyg%2Frussia.jpg&hash=165159ea8fa7f1d863789f23697d6a59" rel="cached" data-hash="165159ea8fa7f1d863789f23697d6a59" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://shokobox.ru/media/wysiwyg/russia.jpg)
Shokobox.ru is a souvenir chocolate packager based in Saint Petersburg, Russia.
Funny the symbols used to illustrate "the territory of Russia". I can see Russian dools, balalaikas and, surprisingly, lots of wheat stalks. They don't need to buy wheat to the United States anymore?
By the way, where's the Vodka's bottles?
Huh, I don't think I've ever seen politicized chocolate before.
Well ersi the Ukrainian children may be able to bite into that chocolate figure but their adults are still in the kindergarten mentality stage themselves.
A few days ago that arrogant woman who does the journalist sessions at the White House was at her usual lying dismissive self. On the matter of the Russian journalists taken into custody she stated that they had been involved in carrying some form of shells. She had simply repeated what that equally arrogant and idiotic Prime Minister. When asked if she had just accepted what she was told or any verification she body-swerved it. If it wasn't so serious one could laugh not only at the sheer stupidity but the lies. One Russian tv company journalist was released as he was British but the other two innocents are still being held by the new fascist lot in Kiev.
When those people were burned at the Trade Union office and others jumped then got beaten to death by Kiev fanatics it was just a report but when a squad of Ukrainian soldiers got the bullet it was more emphasised. The White House and the Western poodles were quick enough to condemn Assad holding a Presidential Election in Syria but Ukraine is somehow different. No matter what Putin and the Russian Federation does they are being parodied as the bad guys. It is a load of tosh and you can bet your bottom dollar that the corporates will increasingly get involved in Ukraine. The real story is that the US and it's Western pets don't like not being the world controllers and Russia is one of the few which does not curtsy to this fact.
Well ersi the Ukrainian children may be able to bite into that chocolate figure
Assumed that their parents can afford those chocolate figures ...
Nearer the truth than some ay imagine. Austerity is just around the proverbial corner and you don't get money from places without paying interest. Neither has the place paid their power bills. The West has much to blame here regarding Ukraine and the constant creeping towards Russia by NATO. Excuses are given for that tripe which are lies. In addition the West is socking Russia and the main reason is that it is seen as a threat to Western money men and corporates.
The new President says he will meet with President Putin whilst the acting Prime Minister who is an aggressive, hate filled git, spits out hate towards Russia. The Ukrainian people do not realise what they are about to go through day to day living.
Kiev made much of the shooting down of a plane and the loss of life by rebels in the East. One wishes they were as frank about the shelling they are doing of houses however. Now that Prime Minister who is a nasty and vindictive git is going bananas over the cutting gas cutting off. Kiev wants to decide what it's discount should be not the supplier! When one realises that they were getting and offered a discount lower than Europe you couldn't make this up. Even the EEC top offical on power supplies has said publically what Russia offered Ukraine was an excellent thing especially as Kiev wasn't paying it's bills. Now once again Russi is the bad guy. The White House press fools just repeat anything that disgusting Kiev Prime Minister says. I don't recall the White House apologising over the 2 Russian journalists they said had mortars amongst stuff when arrested. Lies of course but no apology from the US or Kiev now we are getting another about Russian tanks in Ukraine.
Just a day or two ago at a protest in Kiev when the mobsters attacked the Russian embassy there a government minister actually supported them rioters and called the Russian President names. The police were nowhere to be seen. The Ukrainian nationalist government are of course the greatest and no matter what Russia does or doesn't do they are the automatic baddies. Europe however is concerned about pipe supplies and remember too thet Kiev illegally siphoned off pipes when they weren't paying their bills. Russia time after time has stated it has no wish to invade Ukraine but Kiev has constantly said the opposite and the US and Allies happy to go along with the liars. Yet no matter that Russia has repeatedly said it's stance the US is determined with it's puppets to try and isolate Russia. That will not happen and the Federation can sell it's supplies to China or anyone else. We should also remember that Europe depends on Russian gas and Putin has made it very clear he still is happy to supply the Europeans with what they want. It is high time that Europe realised that the US can bully what it likes as it has it's own oil but they don't.
Elsewhere I said that Russians are lucky not to have an Iraq-like quagmire after the takeover of Crimea, but the mess at their border with Ukraine is ongoing. Ukrainian border guards keep complaining about border violations by Russian military air force, and Ukrainian defence minister (or seeming equivalent) has issued a direct warning now, says Itar-Tass http://en.itar-tass.com/world/739026
It comes close to a declaration of war.
Howie, Russia made itself the baddies the minute they decided to invade Crimea. How can you believe anything out of Putin's mouth after he was caught lying that those weren't Russian soldiers. Maybe the Ukraine couldn't pay its gas bill because the former pro-Russian president just about drove the country into the ground not to mention made it all but defenceless against Russia. Nope, didn't think of that one, did you?
And didn't Crimea cost anything? Must be quite a nerve to keep pressing on debt after removing someone's limb. If Crimea was worth nothing, why not simply give it back?
You really are so naive Sanguinemoon and ersi.
Russia did not invade Crimea no matter the propaganda junk that the US media brains the people with. Crimea voted to go BACK to where they belonged. You don't metnion that Ukraine has created incident at the same border with Russia and their border guards attacked. You are only told what your corporate media wants to tell you. Can I remind that the USA was right behind those Albanians who decided to have a referendum in a Serbian Province and stuffed Serbia. This is the usual pattern if it suits America.
You just need to watch that ignorant woman in the red hair who gives the press releases at the White House. She comes out with lies or denies any wrong doing by Kiev. Even when evidence on particular inclidents proves the White Houese being deliberately wrong there is no apology. Right now Kiev is shelling towns and villages killing completely inccoent civilians even though their President says that will never happen. I dare say if they show a village completely destroyed and bits of bodies of not just men but women and children that is "not proof" either? The US has led this anti-Russian fanaticism campaign and threatened evn more sanctions against Moscow. The contrast in Russia however does not suit or fot in with what America wants, etc. Russia did away in the parliament Lower House with the prospect of invading the East after President Putin asked them to discuss keeping out. Russia has also repeatedly intimated that it wants an end to the bloodshed but America is determined to blame Russia. Once again I must reiterate that the ant-Russian Federation stuff is because when American cannot control a country it then gets up to mischief time after time. Europe is getting nervous and industry in particular and no more so than in Gemrany who is worried about power supplies which Russia has always said it would continue to supply. But it is surprise, surprise, Ukraine which is causing Europe problems and their are US companies concerned about the stupid attempts to restrict trade with Russia.
No matter whenever Russia shows a fair stance it is ignored and accused as stokers in the conflict which is just not true. The biggest stoker in the world is the US. Anyway Russia will still have an income selling oil in the Fareast. In a sense I can almost feel sorry for you Yanks with a blindness on Russia and the Ukraine government because you do not always get the full picture and many times the television media convort or sneakingly give a false picture. Small wonder more and more Americans are getting tired of overseas interference when they find out that they are being lied to as well as manipulated.
The Kiev government is riddled with neo-Nazis and the national Guard n the black uniforms are full of many of these same ballistic thugs. Considering the destroying of civilian homes the cutting off re electricity and water is going to make the Eastern folk in Ukraine sit back is stupid. Even the hospitals taking in the wounded have no power. Russia could have swept across the Border to secure the safety of their own kin but DIDN'T they argued foe peace and discussion so you zombie heads should open your eyes a wee bit more. This is another case of US interfering and thinks it rules the world. Even in the last week or so a word by the Polish Foreign Secretary on Ameica was a hummdinger compete with expletives. That Kiev wants to be chummier with a mess like the EEC when so many in the East are of a completely different mindset is in itself mind blowint. Kiev did not bother tasking this problem in at all. It is East Ukriane that provides an awful big chuink of income to the State and now killing innocents and their homes will do nothing for a united Ukraine.
It is not Russia that is causing the headaches and has done much in going along with the West so grow up and try and let it sink in this is yet another case of US imperialism at work. That that utter stupid and pathetic John McCain was treated as a hero in Kiev is a disgrace. Russia should have kept the option of guarding it's own people from a government infiltrated by fascists. To think that Americans ven had him as a candidate for the White House is not a show of wide demracy but a show of a warped politcal system. Crimea is Russian so get used to it and there is nothing you can do about it. You cannot control countries like say China and Russian because they are no walkovers and fine you lot know it.
Look who's talking naive, Howie. You attribute all contrary opinions to US propaganda, forgetting that I don't follow US news. Where I am located, we have a historical sense of what Russia is about. In fact, my co-workers are most Russians - and the rest are Swedes. There's no need for any outsider to inform me. Instead, I can inform you, as soon as you manage to clear your head from Russian propaganda. I actually wonder how you even have access to it. Must be a superhuman effort on your part, but for such an unworthy cause...
Russia made itself the baddies the minute they decided to invade Crimea.
Invading Crimea?
As a rule of thumb, invasions look a little bit different. Do you remember the invasion of Iraq?
Aside from Western propaganda rhetoric, Russia had no need 'to invade' Crimea since their troops were stationed there officially for many years.
All you can blame Russia for is that some of their troops have left the bases to prevent Kiev from forestalling the referendum by force.
As a rule of thumb, invasions look a little bit different. Do you remember the invasion of Iraq?
Depends on your rule of thumb. Was Anschluss an invasion or not?
Aside from Western propaganda rhetoric, Russia had no need 'to invade' Crimea since their troops were stationed there officially for many years.
So it was already a stand-by occupation. In your eyes maybe it makes it better, yes, but don't be surprised when someone disagrees. Not everyone is happy with the enemy at the gates.
As a rule of thumb, invasions look a little bit different. Do you remember the invasion of Iraq?
Depends on your rule of thumb. Was Anschluss an invasion or not?
There was a referendum.
Western media and some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but in fact there is no evidence that this was necessary.
Aside from Western propaganda rhetoric, Russia had no need 'to invade' Crimea since their troops were stationed there officially for many years.
So it was already a stand-by occupation. In your eyes maybe it makes it better, yes, but don't be surprised when someone disagrees. Not everyone is happy with the enemy at the gates.
Crimea was part of the Russian Empire since 1783 ...
There was a referendum.
Western media and some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but in fact there is no evidence that this was necessary.
I know you know this already, but I am going to spell out to you what is meant by rigging here, so that you know that I know it too, and how one might consider a rigged referendum a rigging, not a referendum.
While there was a coup in Kiev, there was also a coup in Crimean parliament (end of February). Some unidentified troopers (later acknowledged as Russian forces), took over Crimean parliament. The troopers controlled who went in and who went out, and they kept the press out. Under these circumstances, the parliament voted to have a referendum on independence, at first set on the end of May, soon enough moved to mid-March.
Now, if setting the date of the referendum three months away from the parliamentary decision is not suspicious enough, and then later setting the date just two weeks away is not suspicious either, then I don't know what is. Not to mention the troopers in parliament and the inconsistency of the referendum with laws in place at the beginning of the year.
I don't know how you can call all this legal (and I don't care, feel free to keep calling it whatever you want), but these moves have been a repeated theme in Russian/Soviet history, e.g. the "unanimous will of the people" in the Baltic countries to join the USSR in 1940. The quoted bit is official history in Russia and the same phrase is used for the recent annexation of Crimea.
Crimea was part of the Russian Empire since 1783 ...
And Austria and Germany were one Holy Empire for a thousand years, like forever. You see where this historical argument leads to? The founding of Israel was justified the same way, by means of the Bible. Just ignore the Palestinians, current demographics, the current laws, and everything is fine.
Not that this has any effect on you of course.
Now, if setting the date of the referendum three months away from the parliamentary decision is not suspicious enough, and then later setting the date just two weeks away is not suspicious either, then I don't know what is. Not to mention the troopers in parliament and the inconsistency of the referendum with laws in place at the beginning of the year.
No matter how hard you will try to find inconsistencies regarding the referendum, fact is that the vast majority of Crimeans voted for being part of the Russian Federation. Accept it or not, it was their will!!!
And Austria and Germany were one Holy Empire for a thousand years, like forever. You see where this historical argument leads to? The founding of Israel was justified the same way, by means of the Bible. Just ignore the Palestinians, current demographics, the current laws, and everything is fine.
What the heck have Palestinians and Jews to do with the Anschluss?
The vast majority of Austrians and Germans were for it. That's a fact, no matter how someone tries to screw up history.
It is true that the vast majority in Crimea wanted to be back with Russia having been transferred back in the Soviet days. It was a case of Krushchev dumping Crimea in another Soviet Republic it didn't want to be in and bnever really settled in being so treated.
Meanwhile in present Ukraine villages are being destroyed and towns badly damaged. So much for the coroprate millioaire who is President saying there would be on way civilians would be harmed or their homes. It hasn't turned out that way has it? That red haired witch in the White House when quizzed a little while back on the numbers fleeing into Russia denied it existed as there was no proof even contradicting the UN report. Innocent men, women, children are being killed in East Ukraine and willleave a bitter legacy. Ironically the east is where a great proportion of the tax money comesd from to Kiev but they couldn't care a damn in the capital what happens to the population. And the disgraceful utter rubbish being used by the media in the West is disgusting. Russia bent over backwards on the money owed by Ukraine and were treated terribly by the Kiev lot. Russia has also being repeating the view that talking is the way forward yet still being accused of stoking the situation.
Due to the way that Kiev has treated their kinsmen I would not have been surprised if Russia had decided to invade the place to protect them and the way the people are being treated leans to that matter.
For referendum results like that, pretty all the Ukrainians and Tatars would have needed to vote to join Russia and we know this isn't the case. In fact the Russia majority isn't as great as the media makes it out to be. As of 2001, Russians only made up 58% of the population and falling fast. If newer data was available, it would show a smaller majority of Russia or perhaps even a plurality (yes, the Russian percentage was falling fast enough for that to be a possibility.)
Then there's the Russian roadblocks attempting to block access by OSCE observers. I wonder why that was. Hrmmmm, because they were rigging the referendum. There were other irregularities, such as Russian journalist being allowed to vote even though she wasn't a Ukrainian citizen.
Yes, I'm still smelling a big pile of manure.
For referendum results like that, pretty all the Ukrainians and Tatars would have needed to vote to join Russia and we know this isn't the case.
Wherefrom did you pick up this nonsense?
Could you please explain the logic your strange statement is based on?
- Voter participation was around 80%.
- The overhelming majority of those taking part at the referendum, did vote for joining the Russian Federation.
Wonder which part you can't comprehend.
Then there's the Russian roadblocks attempting to block access by OSCE observers.
OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum. Since the USA and its allies declared the referendum illegal, they opposed to send OSCE observers.
Well Sanguinemoon the manure smell is coming from the White House which backs up any lie the Kiev lot dish out. Russia has continually argued that there has to be a peaceful dialogue and outcome so what don't you understand about that? Kiev yakked that there would be no attacks on civilians or their homes, etc. And the actual result has been the opposite. Likewise that mention of the UN on civilians fleeing over the border into Russia and the White House coming out with that disgusting lie syndrome. The Russian President was the one who said to the parliamen there that the opportunity not to be involved army-wise should be the direction. You studiously ignore that because your mindset has been brained by the media. Had Russia invaded to protect their kin the Ukrainian thing would have been done with right there and then but even when Russia argues for peace we get this stupidity and blindness from folk like you.
Now the debt Ukraine owes to Russia for power is over 5 billion and Kiev is doing damn all about it. If Kiev owed the US thgat the White House would have found an excuse to invade the place! As for Crimea that is another corner you are blind on. The referendum was instigated by the Crimeans themselves and NOT by Russia and it is a bit of alaugh that the West led by the White House comes out with this rubbish attitude to ther process. When it suits they will accept referendums. Crimea as I said is back where it should ever have been moved from and the people are happy with that. That is more important than imperialism. he Kiev government is a disgrace and includes neo-Nazis in Ministries. The National Guard is full of Right Sector members and similars. No attention is being considered that the east is nott happy about being shackled to Europe and if it thinks that battering the people down will stop resentment they are totally wrong.
One would think the Cold War had not gone away but it is a case that imperialism and corporate attitudes prevail and trying to make Russia look like the bad guy.
Interesting that as more and more civilians get killed and homes destroyed in numbers the Ukraine news is on the back burner. The West and it's Kiev lackey lot are getting away with, well, almost murder. Add to this water and electricity cut off into the bargain and Kiev and the US thinks this will lead to solving things? Throw in the enthusiasm for europe by Kiev this will only extend the ill-feeling in th east of Ukraine.
Patchwork Makeup of Rebels Fighting Ukraine Makes Peace Talks Elusive
DONETSK, Ukraine — One rebel group, Oplot, comes from the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. Another, the Russian Orthodox Army, is composed of Russians and Ukrainians. A third, named for a river, Kalmius, is made up mainly of coal miners.
This motley mix forms just part of the fighting force of Ukraine’s eastern uprising. It is more patchwork than united front: Some groups get along with others. Some do not. And their leaders seem to change with the weather.
“I can’t keep them straight anymore,” said a fighter who was buying walkie-talkies in preparation for what fighters here expect will be a major showdown with Ukraine’s military.
Rj, does this square with what you're learning from your source?
Hi jimbro. Of course i am fully aware that there is no one set of people in the rebellion. That is a fact of life. However it plays second fiddle to the repeated killing of civilians. Kiev makes statements it is not them and that is almost as ridiculous as that pain-in-the-neck lady with the red air who makes the White House staements. If ever someone insulted intelligence it is her! Maybe there are aliens who have landed and doing to killing of the civilian population! At least twice if not three times shelling has went over the border. A squad Russian Border guards were injured and a border post damaged. Either Kiev is not very good at firing stuff or they are lying and I suspect it is both. One city has been very badly damaged amongst other places including virtually a whole village that has not been involved in any action.
When Kiev went hell bent in some loose link with the EEC they totally ignored the fact of life that much of their main government income comes from the industrial east of Ukraine and that place was not keen on being "European." Instead of sensible dialogue they simply told the east and they were supposed to just knuckle under. When you consider that much of the Nazi sympathisers during WW2 were from the west of Ukraine including their own SS units small wonder the east is very concerned. The Right Sector and their equal group of several neo-Nazi groups today think their WW2 Nazi leaders were heroes. Many of the Right Sector and their pals are in the national guard in the black uniforms (quite appropriate!) so you see jimbro both sides have a selection of parties involved . Kiev is the arrogant corner and just ignored those who were not happy with their deliberations and such hence the insurrection.
Russia has kept out of the fighting whilst still arguing that dialogue is the right direction however it has also stated that if cross-border shelling continues they will not sit back. So Kiev is a patchwork of different groups but some of the government ministers are fromthe extreme right and far from being democratic so look at them for a change!
Now there is to be another meeting to consider more sanctions against the Russian Federation. Talk about a nonsense/ More time should be spent trying to stop the killing of civilians the rambling bombing of civilians, homes, etc.
And what do you know - Obama comes on television to lead another big extension to sanctions on Russia. Flimsy excuses oif course and yet to provide proof of the so-called reasons which are damn nonsense. I bet a pound to a penny the US will make up the gaps by giving their own corporates room to fill the gap.
Wherefrom did you pick up this nonsense?
Could you please explain the logic your strange statement is based on?
- Voter participation was around 80%.
- The overhelming majority of those taking part at the referendum, did vote for joining the Russian Federation.
Wonder which part you can't comprehend.
The voter participation rate, in fact, is part of the problem. As of 2000, the Russian majority as 55% and falling fast. Newer data doesn't seem to be available, but the demographic trend calls into question if Russians were actually a majority at the time of referendum. The results were have required the majority of both the Ukrainians and Tartars voting to join Russia. If the turnout have been say 55%. at least we can say that the other ethnic groups didn't vote in large numbers.
Why did the Russians try to deny the observers access? If you're going to commit election fraud, wine and dine your guests, put them in a good mood. Just don't so extravagant that it seems like you're trying buy their favor, even though you are. Don't give your side 98 percent of the vote. Pick a more realistic number, based on polls. Give your side a couple higher percentage than the polls say and give the opposition a couple lower, but still within the poll's margin of error. If the polling data indicates that your side is going to lose badly, abort the operation (not to say the join Russia side would have.) This smells not only of election fraud, but that rank amateurs committed it. This paragraph doesn't prove the allegations by any stretch of the imagination; but if you keep smelling shit, check the bottom of your shoes. Of course, Putin could afford to let this be handled in such a clumsy way since there wasn't much the West could do about it besides sanctions without risking World War III.
And what do you know - Obama comes on television to lead another big extension to sanctions on Russia. Flimsy excuses oif course and yet to provide proof of the so-called reasons which are damn nonsense. I bet a pound to a penny the US will make up the gaps by giving their own corporates room to fill the gap.
Our favorite Scotsman once again offers excellent news. :yes:
The voter participation rate, in fact, is part of the problem. As of 2000, the Russian majority as 55% and falling fast. Newer data doesn't seem to be available, but the demographic trend calls into question if Russians were actually a majority at the time of referendum. The results were have required the majority of both the Ukrainians and Tartars voting to join Russia. If the turnout have been say 55%. at least we can say that the other ethnic groups didn't vote in large numbers.
That claim is stupid to say the least. Either you didn't bother to inform yourself or you are ignoring facts deliberately.
It was a very important vote for the Crimean people, not only for those of Russian ethnicity. It was a crucial vote concerning their future, strictly speaking their future living standards. Are you aware that Russian living standards (as low as they are compared to some Western countries) are at least three times higher compared to the Ukrainian one? Why do you think that many Ukrainian soldiers from Crimea have opted for changing sides? Because they are in love with Putin?
Are you aware that pensions in Crimea have doubled (not only for those of Russian ethnicity) since it became part of the Russian Federation?
As you can see (or at least I hope so) it was not only a political choice of the voters but mostly a pragmatical one.
The Ukraine was one of the poorest countries in the region. You can consider the Romanians wealthy compared to it and as it looks for now it will become worse.
At the same time Kiev plays war games shelling its own people. Wonder wherefrom Kiev is taking advice ...
As a side note:
US approval rates were very high in the Ukraine before the crisis, namely 80%.
Now since the crisis they have dropped to 57%. A paradox? ...
Why did the Russians try to deny the observers access?
You are beating a dead horse Sang.
As mentioned before, OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum.
It was their choice not to come since the USA declared the referendum as illegal.
You are beating a dead horse Sang.
As mentioned before, OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum.
It was their choice not to come since the USA declared the referendum as illegal.
They were stopped by Russian troops. Here (http://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZPSB&pc=MOZO&q=OSCE+observers+blocked+from+crimea) choose your source. Oh, Putin did claim the troops doing that weren't Russian. Of course he also said the other troops in Crimea weren't his either.
The Ukraine was one of the poorest countries in the region. You can consider the Romanians wealthy compared to it and as it looks for now it will become worse.
At the same time Kiev plays war games shelling its own people. Wonder wherefrom Kiev is taking advice ..
How weird you didn't mention those towns fell into the hands pro-Russian terrorists. It's war is because the Russians started it. You also forgot to mention Russia shooting down a Ukrainian jet over Ukrainian airspace
Fair points there krake in the face of Sanguinemoon's easy brain absorption of Kiev (support at any cost by Obama). The White House chooses very neatly which lies to believe. Several times Kiev has landed shells over the Border into Russia and recently doe this again at a border crossing and other collateral damage. Now the Kiev propganda accuses Russia of downing one of their fighter planes by rocket. I would remind that the "rebels" in East ukraine have already downed a plane by rocket so don't need the Russians to do it for them. Russia has strongly argued for dialigoue as well as more autonomy for a region that has bo interest in being part of europe. The east should be regarded more by Kiev and the Sanguinemoons of this world as it produces much of the Ukraine national income.
Now obama is upping the sanctions on dubious claims that he suits to believe from Kiev and this is a damnable disgracxe. Even more so as Europe does 10 times the business with Russia that America does but the EEC is whimperingly following the dog's lead and well knows that it will suffer more in money with Russia trade than America. In the longer term this may have repercussions not taken on board by Obama's determination to take on anyone who does not accept the US's self-belief in deciding how the world will be run. The utter crassness even though Russia has shown great diplomatic skills and patience.
Of Kiev keeps going on accusing russia of everything excvpet raining times whilst not paying a discounted fuel supply debt to Russia then heaven help the country. The time will come when russia gets fed up with shells plunking over the border causing damage there. And the sillyness from Sanguinemoon on referendums. It it suits the White House referendums are of course fine but if not they are immoral and non-democratic! Talk about wanting cake and eating it. Russia had been very considerable and patient but they will rightly build of their practical defence and if Kiev keeps up what they are doing heaven help them when Russia gets fed up being ostracised, lied about and treated scurriously by the West.
Russia has strongly argued for dialigoue as well as more autonomy for a region that has bo interest in being part of europe
Good to hear. So when are they planning on giving Ukraine's territory back and stop supporting civil war by ceasing support for the
terrorists rebels?
You are beating a dead horse Sang.
As mentioned before, OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum.
It was their choice not to come since the USA declared the referendum as illegal.
They were stopped by Russian troops. Here (http://www.bing.com/search?form=MOZPSB&pc=MOZO&q=OSCE+observers+blocked+from+crimea) choose your source.
From the mouth of your horse:
OSCE refuses to monitor 'illegal' Crimean referendum (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-refuses-to-monitor-illegal-crimean-referendum-339092.html)
Or quoting the chair of the Vienna-based OSCE:
In its current form the referendum ... is in contradiction with the Ukrainian constitution and must be considered illegal," Swiss Foreign Minister Didier Burkhalter, whose country is the current chair of the Vienna-based OSCE, said in a statement. Bla, bla bla ...
Source: Crimea referendum illegal, no OSCE monitoring - Swiss (http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idINDEEA2A0DS20140311)
I hope that is clear enough even for you Sang :)
Or quoting the chair of the Vienna-based OSCE:
In its current form the referendum ... is in contradiction with the Ukrainian constitution and must be considered illegal," Swiss Foreign Minister Didier Burkhalter, whose country is the current chair of the Vienna-based OSCE, said in a statement. Bla, bla bla ...
Source: Crimea referendum illegal, no OSCE monitoring - Swiss (http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/03/11/ukraine-crisis-referendum-osce-idINDEEA2A0DS20140311)
I hope that is clear enough even for you Sang :)
From the "Bla, bla bla …" part of the article:
For the past week, OSCE military observers have been unable to enter Crimea, which has come under control of Russian forces since the fall of pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich to months of popular unrest.
You're welcome. :angel:
(Not that the article was needed in order to deduce that 7 March was several days before 12 March.)
They don't seem to like each other very much over there. It might be a good idea for the rest of us to stay away until they get this sorted out.
It might be a good idea for the rest of us to stay away until they get this sorted out.
Just great. There goes my vacation plans. :irked:
I think that mjsmsprt40 is touching on a point. Too much allegations, lack of proof, etc. We need to wait and as the Malaysians sensibly pointed out that they are not laying the blame. So a good point let's see what does actually come out of all the screaming stuff.
There's too much defending Putin. An SA-11 surface to air missile appears to be the cause from photographic evidence. Yes, you can tell from photographs (the pattern of the holes, etc. That type of missile is designed to explode before it hits the target.) Intelligence agencies intercepted communication among the pro-Russian separatists about downing of the plane, in separatist held territory. This is quickly adding up to an epic fuckup by the pro-Russian terrorists.
There's too much defending Putin? If you mean the Western leadership or that in general including the media you are off your trolley. If you are meaning me then I am treading a lonely path but won't change from it.
How many times does the Russia President have to say he is not interested in invading Ukraine? How many times has he urged peace discussions? He gave Ukraine energy cheaper than anyone else and gets hit at for saying it was time overdue bills were paid. It was the West that supported the tugs who rampaged in the Kiev square who murdered and destroyed an elected government. What did the US and West do? They supported the thugs and all that guff about democratic processes, blah, blah. Indeed the West knew fine well that Kiev ignored the feelings of folk in the east that did not want involved in Europe. Did Kiev discuss ti with east Ukraine? no it did not but Putin urged it. Did the West lean on Kiev to discuss the deep division it had with the east? No it did not Only Putin urged that.
What we have been given is carefully orchestrated propaganda from Obama and meekly followed by the West which doesn't want to offend America when it should tell it to get stuffed. So instead of encouraging dialogue by Kiev "we" inthe West support the onslaught of the Ukrainian arm, destroying of homes, killing of civilians, wiping out of areas and villages. Still wait to see where Putin has urged such barbarous behaviour. Not satisfied with miscalling Russia and Putinthe media have done as wished by the political establishment and went berserk. Some of the newspaper reports are intelligence insulting and the television news is so one-sided and that includes the BBC. Time after time when the Ukrainian thing comes on there are one sided guests and in your face bias. Tis applies to both here and the US but elsewhere as well.
When Obama speaks you can see he is acting like a dummy and just repeats anything the Kiev liars tell him. The fact that US intelligence has been reported on mainstream television as stating Russia is NOT directly involved in the latest tragedy is just reported on then ignored as it does not suit the vile propaganda being fed to the media. You freely use the media propaganda standard word of the Eastern "terrorists." Interesting that spoon fed word as it wasn't used to describe the terrorists in the square who killed un-armed policemen,and others nor those holed up in that terrible assault on a Union HQ when people jumping out of the place which had been set on fire were beaten to death whilst lying injured on the pavement outside. You unfortunately like others do not think widely but just accept the spoon fed media imbalance. Oh, and for that supposed radio chat overheard is an interesting example. A couple of nights ago I watched a report on that and a telecommunications expert stated that the conversation was odd as it started at one time then during the recodring the time slot changed thus indicating it could have been doctored. Another report on the programme showed a picture of a Kiev missile unit in the same general area so it begs the wider question - why don't we wait instead of jumping on a bandwagon. There was also that Kiev fighter jet in the vicinity of the passenger plane which Kiev denies but again the television showed the screen plot. Instead of meekly and for easy satisfaction accepting the first thing said you and others need to keep your minds that wee bit more open instead of just accepting anything that suits.
What the hell are you talking about?
Stick to dressing up and marching.
If there is one thing they don't need anymore of, it's the SA-11 missile. Everybody over there seems to have one. The Ukrainians have them. The Russians have them. The Russian backed separatists have them. Little kids playing the Crimean version of "Cops and Robbers" seem to have them. The fact that they used an SA-11 to shoot down the airliner doesn't seem to establish much. It's like trying to pin a killing on a particular Chicago street gang because we know the killer used a gun.
I have to admit right now that until further facts-- or at least better unsubstantiated rumors-- come out, pinning the crime on the person who actually pulled the trigger is gonna be rough.
Special note to RJHowie: Another thing there's no shortage of over thataway is liars. The Ukraine government, the Russians, the Russian backed separatists and last but not least our own President Obama would all have major problems if their noses grew every time they lied.
Well kind of typical of you tt92. If is something too sensible or to the point one gets a duh attitude. Kind of says much of someone who hides where he comes from the try and act as if indifferent or not part of the norm. Well done to you but as it was so simply put even that is beyond you.
Get your point mjsmsprt40 and I would like to wait until there is more practical information. We are getting too much of the allegations and no in-depth proof of what is happening. We do know that a lot of innocents are getting killed by an army that has a government claiming it's army is NOT targeting the civilians.
Now especially for tt92 who doesn't understand he comes over like a smart alec the latest news is that the Prime Minister of Ukraine that arrogant, spiteful arrogant bufoon has resigned along with his government. They are deep you-know-what in Ukraine as well as financially and by the end of next week they will not be able to pay their army as well. Anyone who doesn't think the media is going over the top needs a rest! Enjoy that tt92 :cheers:
Thank you.
I have shown your latest posts to an eight-year-old and a sixty-five year-old and they agree that it's gibberish.
It's like trying to pin a killing on a particular Chicago street gang because we know the killer used a gun.
Not quite. The gangstas not only used a gun, but were the only ones in vicinity. It's an open and shut case.
There's too much defending Putin. An SA-11 surface to air missile appears to be the cause from photographic evidence.
You know more than the CIA knows or want to tell us?
You already know about the circumstances the plane was shut down? If so you could hand over your proofs to the CIA.
Or is it just the vitriolic propaganda you picked up and trying to sell as proof?
It seems to be the latter since you are using the same language - "pro-Russian terrorists".
BTW,
propaganda and perverted truth - Separatists looting the victims
https://twitter.com/Wuyelaolaoshi/status/490983822750527488/photo/1
What really happened - http://www.youtube.com/embed/xLdRBaL4-wU
Same applies for the US State Dept.
"We have evidence" bla, bla, bla.
It must be truth because we tell it. No proofs needed. We never lie.
In the meantime the Ukrainian army commits war crimes in Donetsk.
In contrast to usual US allegations, those war crimes are documented and there is proof.
So far about "terrorists".
Dutch-led force hopes to secure Malaysia crash site in eastern Ukraine (http://www.dw.de/dutch-led-force-hopes-to-secure-malaysia-crash-site-in-eastern-ukraine/a-17804521)
Probably nobody expected this kind of initiative from the Netherlands. When soldiers from a Nato member country move in, Ukraine is not a local conflict or civil war any more.
Probably nobody expected this kind of initiative from the Netherlands.
Indeed, I don't see how they would expect to secure the area while simultaneously selling our last tanks to Saudi Arabia. As I recall the absence of tanks played a fairly significant role in Srebrenica. But at least without reluctant French generals at the helm we might have proper air support from our F-16 fleet.
Of course, without a Mladić that might be irrelevant. We'll see.
ou know more than the CIA knows or want to tell us?
No, I don't. This is information well known by intelligence agencies, including the CIA. Oh yeah, they have told us.
Some guy who says "I like reading about Chinese society/literature/movies" (his twitter profile), in other words a nobody, says that "Putin supported Ukraine separatist holding a child' toy monkey like a trophy" means that's what's officially reported? This is just some random schmuck with small Twitter following of 307. Still pretending he's some huge State Department official?
Indeed, I don't see how they would expect to secure the area while simultaneously selling our last tanks to Saudi Arabia. As I recall the absence of tanks played a fairly significant role in Srebrenica.
Do you mean the truth about the Srebenica genocide, the West doesn't want you to know about? (http://www.wikileaks-forum.com/the-denial-of-the-srebrenica-massacre/338/was-the-massacre-of-srebrenica-a-lie/20032/)
"In July 1995, 450 poorly armed soldiers of the Dutch battalion were supposed to ‘defend’ the entire well equipped 28th division of the Bosnian Muslim army, which counted some 10,000 troops! Why didn’t they defend themselves? I always wandered why is everyone protecting Muslims and no one is protecting the Serbs.
He wants to remove the irrational stigma from Dutch soldiers who were stationed in this part of eastern Bosnia under the UN auspices, who were accused of “failing to protect” Muslim fighters under the command of the war criminal Naser Oric, who were using Srebrenica safe haven status to raid the surrounding Serb-populated villages three years prior to the Bosnian Serb Army takeover."
This is just some random schmuck with small Twitter following of 307. Still pretending he's some huge State Department official?
Nope, that was just an example of how denigration works.
You want an example of how the State Dept. is accusing while refusing to provide evidence?
Here (http://img.rt.com/files/news/2a/d1/c0/00/1867144_rt_america_feed_part_both_480p.mp4?event=download) you go. (it's a 27 MB clip)
Dutch state liable over 300 Srebrenica deaths (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28313285)
In Bosnia they were not soldiers but peacekeepers - and were found guilty of inaction. Go figure. It's probably insignificant in what capacity they served in Bosnia. The court case has been depressing to the army's reputation. To get beaten in the court case is a stigma indeed and provides some psychological explanation why there's such an affirmative action in the current airplane case.
(Not really sure what part of this story is unknown when it's all over the news. Perhaps the Kreml version of history?)
Unofficial apologies from Russia to the Netherlands http://nieuws.vtm.be/buitenland/102110-vergeef-ons-nederland
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic3.nieuws.vtm.be%2Fsites%2Fnieuws.vtm.be%2Ffiles%2Fstyles%2Flarger%2Fpublic%2Farticle%2Fimage%2F2014%2F07%2Fnovaja_gazeta_169.jpg%3Fitok%3DS22nk3iC&hash=23d8239bec8f4a3b63b7da8fa91c3753" rel="cached" data-hash="23d8239bec8f4a3b63b7da8fa91c3753" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static3.nieuws.vtm.be/sites/nieuws.vtm.be/files/styles/larger/public/article/image/2014/07/novaja_gazeta_169.jpg?itok=S22nk3iC)
Not really sure what part of this story is unknown when it's all over the news.
I think the suggestion is that it's unknown that multiple sides were committing atrocities. But in nearly two decades of media coverage I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned once or twice that Bosnians weren't always nice to Croats and Serbs.
Also, despite suggestions to the contrary on the linked page, the parliamentary investigation determined the Dutch soldiers were not at fault, but rather their commanders: the Dutch government and NATO.
Also, despite suggestions to the contrary on the linked page, the parliamentary investigation determined the Dutch soldiers were not at fault, but rather their commanders: the Dutch government and NATO.
It's more my imprecise formulation that is at fault. I summarised it as if being more about the army than about the government.
The linked text mentions the Dutch government clearly enough (even in the title "Dutch state liable...") and logically it's the government calling the shots in both cases, in UN missions and the current airplane mission.
Sorry.
Sorry.
My bad, I should have specified. I was referring to krake's link, where the soldier was trying "to remove the irrational stigma from Dutch soldiers who were stationed in this part of eastern Bosnia under the UN auspices".
The conclusions of the parliamentary commission can be found here (http://www.parlement.com/id/vh8lnhrpmxvc/parlementaire_enquete_srebrenica_2002).
I misspoke slightly. The commission concluded that Dutchbat didn't try to accompany the Muslim men up tot he last moment, so I suppose they did lay some blame at the soldiers' feet (or at least at Karremans, their commander). But first and foremost the government pushed the mission through even the army already warned in advance that without proper equipment their presence would be symbolic at best. And let's not forget general Janvier's infamous denial of air support.
Anyway, I can't imagine what it must be like to be one of those soldiers, but it seems to me that the article would've been more valid if written in 1998 than in 2008. The author mostly seemed upset that Oric wasn't sentenced for certain war crimes, but at the same time the idea that "the West" doesn't want me to know about said war crimes is rather odd. That stuff specifically relating to Oric was all over the news a little less than a decade ago, and the entire Srebrenica affair constantly kept returning to actuality for most of my life. I think it's a bit absurd to say "here's what the West doesn't want you to know" when it reads more like "look at these things everyone knows from mainstream media like NOS" (except that most media would have said that Oric is accused of this and that as opposed to saying he most definitely did this and that).
Nope, that was just an example of how denigration works.
Your wording implied that poster was from the State Dept. In fact, he was not and has nothing to with the agency.
RT is the new Pravda. That's undated video of an exchange between unnamed people. If you notice, this couldn't have been about MH17 because the man mentioned that it was two Ukrainian planes. MH17, of course, was Malaysian. Obviously we can deduce which incidents that conversation was about and the man's questions have since been answered.
Now instead of relying on
Pravda RT, it's not difficult to read the primary source, which indeed provides evidence (http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/osce-violations-07242014.html) , Oh look, right after that happened the separatists were boasting about downing a transport plane. Ooops, it wasn't a transport plane. Putin tried to blame the Ukrainians for having a transport plane within three miles of civilian aircraft (not in the briefing, but easily available from other sources)
I tried reading/listening to/viewing RT a few times. I found its reliability to be about the same as "The Onion". The difference is that "The Onion" doesn't try to hide that it's satire, RT -- well, it's RT.
RT is the new Pravda. That's undated video of an exchange between unnamed people.
The US State Dept. is accusing Russia for firing artilery into Ukraine but refuses to provide proof.
The clip was taken during Thursday’s scheduled press conference.
The reporter is Matthew Lee, a veteran AP journalist and the lady is a spokeswoman of the US State Dept. I don't know her name but at least she looks much better than Samantha Power ;)
Oh and don't try to tell me that the new Pravda did fake the clip.
Now instead of relying on Pravda RT, it's not difficult to read the primary source, which indeed provides evidence (http://ukraine.usembassy.gov/statements/osce-violations-07242014.html)
So your primary source, the venerable pack from Kiev backed by the USA is providing evidence?
Doesn't such kind of evidence insult your intelligence?
- "All evidence we have
suggests" - suggestions are no proof
- "we have detected an increasing amount of heavy weaponry crossing the border from Russia into Ukraine." - any proof for the allegation?
- "Russia-backed separatist fighters have demonstrated proficiency with surface-to-air missile systems and have downed more than a dozen aircraft over the past few months, including two large transport aircraft." - they have indeed downed some Ukrainian military airplanes flying at a much lower altitude with man-portable air-defense systems (manpads)
- "At the time that MH17 dropped out of contact, we detected a surface-to-air missile (SAM) launch from a separatist-controlled area in southeastern Ukraine." - detected trough transcedental meditation? Where is the proof?
- "Intercepts of separatist communications posted on YouTube" - YouTube is the only alleged proof? Good luck ...
This one tops all the rest because it is the most stupid:
- "Video posted on social media shows a SA-11 on a transporter traveling through the Krasnodon and back to Russia. The video indicated the system was missing at least one missile, suggesting it had conducted a launch."
Ukraine’s “Krasnodon” video actually in Lugansk (http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/07/22/ukraines-krasnodon-video-actually-in-lugansk/)
Bogus photos of ‘Russian’ air-defense systems in Ukraine debunked by bloggers (http://rt.com/news/174868-ukraine-buk-falsification-continues/)
Reminds me of this one: Evidence of undercover Russian troops in Ukraine debunked (http://humanrightsinvestigations.org/2014/04/22/evidence-of-undercover-russian-troops-in-ukraine-debunked/)
In the last few weeks there have been 47 shells landing in Russia including the shelling of a border post the injury of a border guard and the killing of a civilian along with private property effected. The real niggle are these statements by the White House press wafflers telling reporters us they have it on good authority or intelligence suspects, etc. When pressed on actual proof they do a dance and cut the questioner short. Not so much actual proof just as strong feeling. Come back Dr Goebells all is forgiven.
In the last few weeks there have been 47 shells landing in Russia including the shelling of a border post the injury of a border guard and the killing of a civilian along with private property effected. The real niggle are these statements by the White House press wafflers telling reporters us they have it on good authority or intelligence suspects, etc. When pressed on actual proof they do a dance and cut the questioner short. Not so much actual proof just as strong feeling. Come back Dr Goebells all is forgiven.
So it all balances out. The Russian propaganda against the White House propaganda. A fair balance, pick your favorite liar and see where it goes.
Yes that is if we are being basic and no reason why not mjsmsprt40, fine. The only thing that disturbs that premise which is a fine one is the hysterical and fanatical mayhem of the Western media along with screaming newspaper front page stuff. With the West jumping on anything as "a distinct possibility" in any incident but giving no proof is not much of an intelligent stance. Being a bit more sensible about reporting should be the norm until something can be proved.
Now for goodness sake people in the Netherlands are talking about trying to sue the Russian President. how wacky is that one?! In the sadness of the plane crash there is another aspect that troubled me especially about the Dutch. The plane was not a military one but all the pomp came out, the king and Queen (fair enough) but a military show? it should have been a simple but dignified civilian affair. Re the other plane crash in northern Africa with over 100 all dead is that going to be a military excuse too i wonder?
Anyway, I can agree with you on principle about which propaganda should be listened to but they really must stop insulting intelligence by coming out with the rabid rubbish being spat out.
- "All evidence we have suggests" - suggestions are no proof
You know, the propaganda from Russia and the separatists tends about the US "showing no proof" despite the US showing much more evidence than you want to admit; meanwhile there's scant evidence to contrary. There's satellite photos, etc showing that the missile did indeed launch from the separatist controlled territories. There were no Ukrainian troops in the area. The separatist briefly boasted about it before they realized it wasn't a Ukrainian transport. Once the error as discovered they tried to remove the posts, but the internet remembers everything. It's clear what happened. The separatists shot down MH17 in a case of mistaken identity.
With the West jumping on anything as "a distinct possibility" in any incident but giving no proof is not much of an intelligent stance.
Like repeating the refrain, "where's the proof" is? Right now, we're looking at about 99% probability that was indeed the separatists. We have the satellite images, etc. What's the other part of the 47 shells in Russia? Remember that crap out Ukrainians supposedly shelling their own people, only it turned out those towns were in separatists controlled territory and were filled with them? What really happened with your 47 shells? Were the Ukrainians shells really fired a separatist troops that crossed the border like the craven cowards they are?
You don't know anything that is perfectly accurate at all.
I have watched the White House press meetings and they are disgraceful. When a reporter asks for proof he is curtly dealt with for having the nerve to question assertions. He will be told arrogantly it is on good authority or "facts." However when pressed to be more explicit as the statements are provocative the matter is cut off or a refusal. Explain that, eh? So US propganda is A1 and Russian propaganda is a lie. Interesting and odd thesis that baloney. Russia also produced copies of diagrams that showed a Ukrainian fighter in the same area as the downed plane yet Kiev denies it so that's okay then?
As for the BUK missile Russia too has shown a picture of the BUK and states it was Ukrainian and later moved. Just staing that a missile is in a controlled are is stretching practicality. The rebels are hardly a standing army like the Ukrainian Forces are they. They do NOT effectively control that whole area either and is something that suits you to miss. You and the media chose to ignore the 47 shells into Russia over the last few weeks killing of a Russian border guard, civilian and destruction of a home - all very suitable for you of course! . Kiev is making no difference, it is shelling where it likes and destroying homes and killing men, women and children. Kiev denies it but pictures show something else but DC prefers to just accept any lie that Kiev tells them so it can rant against Russia it being a country they cannot control like the rest of the world.
Ah, and let me tell you something else now I bet you don't know. Some 40 Ukrainian soldiers have now defected and been allowed to go over the border to Russia. Oh and 2 Kiev border guards have also left their post and fled over the border too. The fleeing soldiers statement is that they were not happy killing their own fellow countrymen and women. Interesting,eh? Wonder how the Kiev Army will get on when they run of money to pay them? :down:
Dutch premier Rutte says armed mission to MH17 site 'not realistic' (http://www.dw.de/dutch-premier-rutte-says-armed-mission-to-mh17-site-not-realistic/a-17811838?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf)
They woossed out. This only encourages Russia. EU wants to continue to learn from Russia the slow and painful way, while giving no lessons in return.
As for the BUK missile Russia too has shown a picture of the BUK and states it was Ukrainian and later moved. Just staing that a missile is in a controlled are is stretching practicality. The rebels are hardly a standing army like the Ukrainian Forces are they.
Now if there were actually any Ukrainian troops anywhere near there. How many times does Putin need to lie before you see him for what his is. It's not an Obama vs Putin he said, he said situation. Putin was lying from the get-go, starting with denying those were Russian troops in Crimea (which later had to admit.) He's put himself in the comfortable position of wiping the separatists' ass, now. He actually even accidentally all but admitted the separatists did it when he tried to blame the presence of a Ukrainian transport plane three miles away. Get it? In that he tried to say the separatists were actually trying to shot down the transport instead of MH17. Yes, the rebels had SA-11s, supplied by Russia.
You know, the propaganda from Russia and the separatists tends about the US "showing no proof" despite the US showing much more evidence than you want to admit; meanwhile there's scant evidence to contrary.
Scant evidence? Really?
Another State Department Hoax? (http://www.opednews.com/articles/Another-State-Department-H-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-
Email_Information_Propaganda_Russia-140727-215.html)
Suddenly the evidence appears in an email and is spread via social media. This is not credible. Such evidence if it actually exists would be released in a Washington press conference by top government officials with experts present to explain the meaning of the photos to the journalists and to answer questions. No real journalists, if any are left, are going to believe that such hot information would be released in an email. Moreover, the photos are meaningless to the uninitiated, and there is no way to judge their authenticity.
Additionally, it is not credible that such important information would be released at a news dead time -- 8:45 AM EDT on a Sunday morning when the West Coast is still asleep.
Dutch premier Rutte says armed mission to MH17 site 'not realistic' (http://www.dw.de/dutch-premier-rutte-says-armed-mission-to-mh17-site-not-realistic/a-17811838?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf)
They woossed out.
They had to since Kiev has broken its word. It was an agreement with Donetsk and Kiev to halt military actions in the vecinity of the disaster site so international experts can do their work. Poroschenko has promised to halt military actions in an area of 40 square kilometer.
Kiev's promise became history. "Ukrainian armed forces on Sunday engaged in a major offensive against separatists to gain full control of the crash site."
Automatically Putin is lying according to your rather limited bision and thought process. Why is it the White House press room yaks about Russia and when asked for proof cannot provide the evidence? You really have a nerve roasting me for supporting Putin. The Russian President advocated dialogue between Kiev and the rebels and also that both sides should try and desist from further warfare. He allowed as I have to repeat again for your daft benefit Ukraine to have oil cheaper than anyone else and they still can't meet the bill. You are so gullible and part of the American hypocrisy on world affairs. Doesn't matter what Putin says he is a liar and dangerous. Load of cobblers. Are you going to justify all the mess ups your country has created in the world? Russia is nowhere near that but instead you just gulp down the lies from the White House. Its gibe no proof just allegations and when pressed ignores the question with "it must be" or "looks that way."
Russia has never said it wants East Ukraine it is all scurrilous US screaming propaganda and you insult your grey cells just accepting bland answers. If Russia had really wanted the 2 provinces it could have marched in and taken them and end of story but no matter how often Putin said no to invasion you still conjure up something else with no proof whatsoever.To take the stance that you are whiter than white and Russia the very opposite actually doesn't say much for you. You question nothing but just accept White House answers that answer nothing. Maybe you lot could pay what Ukraine has owed Russia and maybe pay the Ukrainian soliders when they have no wages. Not surprised some have already deserted and Kiev is in one stinking mess caused by their own scurrilous and ant-democratic stupidy.
Apart from all the home wrecked and civilians killed, tens of thousands of the non-combatants fleeing over the border this is simply ignored by you and the mindsets similar to yours. I have also noticed that polls in the US that were massivelt against Russia have declined to 51% so at least there are those that don't just absorb government untruths and think for themselves. America doesn't have a moral stance it only wants to be able to control everyone and condemns any country that doesn't accept it's warped stance and thoroughly disgraceful deceit and subterfuge on the issue.
Wipe that fleck of foam from the corner of your mouth.
Unable to break away from the White House propaganda and lies, eh? It would take more than your emptiness to make me foam. It is an easy way to avoid the issue of course so I respect your right to be perhaps even unintentionally ignorant.
My dear rjhowie, you know that I share some of your ideas relating the "biggest potency in the world" (if they still are...) but listen to a word of advice - don't trust Putin, he's not less dangerous than your ex colonies "over the pond".
What results clear from all this mess it's the absolute lack of idea about European's role in the world while under the German leadership, an illegal, abusive and unacceptable leadership with destructive consequences. Again, Germany will be responsible for destroying Europe.
The German people deserves not such fate, they should have the opportunity to contribute with the best they have (and it's not just a little) not with the worst they have.
Inefficacy it's total and Europe's turning into a joke for the rest of the world to laugh about.
There's no worst way of finishing but like this, as an anecdote. That's not proper of Men but mice.
This twenty one century will be tenebrous.
This twenty one century will be tenebrous.
It is tenebrous from the start. At the end of the last century everybody thought the new one will be nice sweet fluffy, but then some Saudi pilots trained in America landed some airplanes on WTC and Pentagon and the United States razed Afghanistan and Iraq in retaliation. Nothing in world politics makes sense every since.
This twenty one century will be tenebrous.
It is tenebrous from the start. At the end of the last century everybody thought the new one will be nice sweet fluffy, but then some Saudi pilots trained in America landed some airplanes on WTC and Pentagon and the United States razed Afghanistan and Iraq in retaliation. Nothing in world politics makes sense every since.
I often wondered about that. Nobody noticed that these pilots showed no interest in learning to safely land a plane?
It was the Feds
It was the Feds
Yes, sorry for waking you up, dear antipode.
You can return to your sleep...
Have a regard for what you say Belfrager although i must say that Putin is still less a threat to the world than the good old US of A. It has military bases all over the world which Russia will never have. Where imperial America gets involved in conflicts it helps it's multi-billion military hardware industry and when someone is invaded it is followed by the corporates. So the US will give interference via the excuse it is protecting it's interest. Yeah those of the money barons on Wall Street. If they want to be really moral they should be looking internally on their own nest troubles and the tens of millions of ex-colonists weho are suffering.
For some time Russia has had trade inks with Ukraine because that country produces some parts for items in Rusia and of course there is the strong Russian physical presence in the tragic place too. If America thinks it's puppets in Kiev can just hook up with Europe and ignore the East then it more stupid than it is as been up till now. Of course Russia has an influence i the East but it doesn't matter how often it says it does NOT want to incorporate the 2 provinces because that doesn't suit the White House. The anti-Russian attacks are over the top and need scaling down whilst the same time there has to be dialogue regarding Ukraine AND Russia.
Would also say that mjsmsprt40 does have a discussion point regarding the propaganda on both sides in Ukraine but I have to say the arrogance of the White House press briefings is mind-boggling. Automatically if they allege something it is sqeaky clean but from anyone else automatically wrong. Now just as I presumed the US is giving money to the Kiev regime. No coomments on the money the Kiev bandits owe Russia and I dare say some of this throwaway cash will go to pay the Ukrainian Army before any others decide to hop it! So no matter that the US is in trillions of debt (owes masses to the good ole Commie dictatorship of China! to hang on to it's self-belief it is called to run the world.
Have a regard for what you say Belfrager although i must say that Putin is still less a threat to the world than the good old US of A.
Let the devil to come and chose...
I don't know what's worst but one thing I know, Putin let it very clear that the times when there was only one super power are gone.
How many presidents the USA had after the fall of the Soviet Empire until now? two? they'll stay as the more inept the Country has ever seen at their brief History. An unique opportunity thrown away at a succession of disasters.
That, of course, assuming that Presidents matters, which I doubt it.
Anyway America knows how to care for themselves. So does Putin, so does the Chinese. The problem it's us, the Europeans and I disagree very much with you, siding with Putin it's not a solution for us. It could be if we had a strategy but we don't. We are not even we.
We are not even we.
Lemme tell you what we are. A buffer zone for someone in case something very nasty should happen.
We are not even we.
Lemme tell you what we are. A buffer zone for someone in case something very nasty should happen.
Perspicacious from your part.
My solution for that it's a very simple and old one, to attack it's the best defense.
Aye right. Best method of defence..... neat clever clogs dance there boy.
Russia has never said it wants East Ukraine it is all scurrilous US screaming propaganda and you insult your grey cells just accepting bland answers. I
I'm surprised you never heard that actions speak louder than words. They probably don't want to annex it, yet. But rather to create a puppet or buffer state and leave Ukraine as weaken rump state.
The anti-Russian attacks are over the top and need scaling down whilst the same time there has to be dialogue regarding Ukraine AND Russia.
Which attacks are over the top? Just about everything important said about Russia has held true. Those indeed were Russian soldiers occupying Crimea, despite Putin's initial claims. Russia continues to supply weapons to the separatists despite their displays of viciousness/incompetence or some deadly combination of the two. Russia says it wants peace, but again the actions speak louder than words.
Now just as I presumed the US is giving money to the Kiev regime
I hope so. The former pro-Russian president drove the country into the ground, meanwhile the current events supported by Russia are damaging the country further. They do need help rebuilding after the damage Putin the Terrible caused, not to mention building some kind of credible defense against Russia. The only problem is that if Putin grows even more arrogant, it will be case of Poland vs Nazi Germany no matter what Ukraine tries to do.
My solution for that it's a very simple and old one, to attack it's the best defense.
As we say over here, the way to secure a prosperous future is to declare war on Sweden and surrender immediately.
My solution for that it's a very simple and old one, to attack it's the best defense.
As we say over here, the way to secure a prosperous future is to declare war on Sweden and surrender immediately.
Don't be like that... let us dream that we can still attack someone...
What a misery.
Germany is behaving exactly as per the logic of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. History repeating itself.
Germany's 'secret deal with Russia to end violence in Ukraine which would see Crimea officially annexed in exchange for $1billion' (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711739/Germanys-secret-deal-Russia-end-violence-Ukraine-Crimea-officially-annexed-exchange-1billion.html)
You never have Neville Chamberlain running around when you really need him.
Translated-- Putin has no desire to take more land--- In a pig's eye.
Oh what a non-surprise with the usual brain dead stuff from Americans. Ukraine is a large country in the area (do try and use geography) before this junk about a rump State. When you consider the modern imperial way of the US it really is a bit much for them to accuse someone else. Where are the scores of Russia bases around the world, fleets like over near China doing an intimidation and so on. You folk are so far up your own arrogance and country conceit you cannot see very well. Your propaganda is unbelievable. Tirades, lies, lack of evidence but make the muck stick. And that other stupid comment about where was Chamberlain when you need him is another ex-colonist nonsense. You lot took your time in the 1st WW and the same in the 2nd. You only came into the war in the Far east when Japan did the dirty on you and there are some historians who would say there was an idea of an attack.
Trouble is that due to the power of the economic industry over the pond excuses to do in countries is a ploy. Once a country had been over intimidated or taken over in come the Wall Street barons to make their money. This is followed by business and then a military base to justify "looking after American interests." Maybe someone could explain properly why the US led the support of the criminals and neo-Nazis that did their dastardly uprising in Kiev/ Why the East was treated at the end of a barge pole even though much of the industry was there. Indeed the east was treated abominably by thee US led West. Those Nazis are still at it in Kiev by the way and will not go quietly. Jews better watch out and now the Kiev Communist party is being threatened with banning because it doesn't have enough MP's in the joke of a parliament. For a country that boasts about democracy and rights the US is a giant liar machine.
Kiev still needs a link with Russia for obvious reasons and Moscow is supposed to take all the lies, inferences and make-believe Kiev and the White House cook up. You just have to watch the response of the White House staff in answering questions at the press briefings. Even the CNN rep got rather tired of the lack of honesty which tells you something. Ukraine would be a drain on the EEC an d yet the Kiev government makes no effort to discuss with the people in the east of it's won country. American pushes them along for a dig at Russia because it is one of the few countries in the world that the US cannot control in it's imperial nonsense. Billions will be dished out apparently from DC to Kiev even though the ex-colognes have a crippling debt they are stupidly stuck with. Russia gave Ukraine a giant help with it's fuel discount but the Kiev nationalist frenzy ignores that! If Kiev becomes a financial disaster it is self-inflicted. The insurrectionists who overthrew the elected government so how does the wonderful land of the free jump into bed with that. Especially as the former President was taking time to rethink his stance. But it is what suits the great US of A, time after time.
You never have Neville Chamberlain running around when you really need him.
Translated-- Putin has no desire to take more land--- In a pig's eye.
Neville Chamberlain? I'm sure that if he would be alive he would be proud to see the new leader of the civilized world and enjoy its moral authority as we all do.
War made easy, brainwashing with tradition.
No, this time it's not about Putin and his state controlled evil propaganda. Nor is it about Putin's ambitions to rule the world.
It's a documentary made by Norman Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Solomon)
Since the documentary was made 2007, it is incomplete. Too bad because nothing changed since.
War Made Easy (2007) (http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/war_made_easy/) - the documentary
Where are the scores of Russia bases around the world,
You don't know how to do an internet search yet? Now Russia's the one building bases around the world.
Once a country had been over intimidated or taken over in come the Wall Street barons to make their money.
In fact, investment from America and Western Europe might just be what the doctor ordered to jump start the Ukrainian economy. Certainly the western investors will make money, but the factories they build may well put hundreds of thousands of people to work directly with several times that number serving the factories and their workers from pubs to other plants producing parts needed at the factories. Basic Macroeconomics, Howie. However, your hero Putin continuing supply the separatists will weapons will serve as a disincentive to investment and deepen Ukraine's economic woes.
Indeed the east was treated abominably by thee US led West.
How did the US lead the western Ukraine. Please do give specifics. Oh, there aren't any and you're just on an Anti-American rant? That's what I thought.
Certainly the place needs investment but uyou are studiously ignoring that there are two different directions inside Ukraine - one to the EEC and the other to the east until Kiev is more sensible and does something sensible friction will continue.
You really spoiled your last comment there by falling back on the handy excuse of an ant-American rant. Always handy when you lot are so brained by your media and corporate politicians in what passes for a democracy. As for me making up the US rant on Ukraine let me remind you of this.
When the gangsters started their hell in the Kiev square against what was a properly elected goverment the US came in and made it obvious where they were going to stand. Whether the government was a good one or not is a pasing point that WAS democracy. The more the square thugs did the more they were supported in destroying the government. A fact as I stated was that the then President was re-thinking his stance but never got the chance to follow through being deposed and this too was supported by the US. Your Vice-President made his presence very much didn't he? So too did that yack mouth above him. This was followed by that unbelievable, utterly stupid and brainless Senator McCain going for a walkabout with the thugs and proclaiming America was right behind them. So it shows that the word 'democracy' is a flexible one for the USA.
What you have unfortunately done is shown the often accusation that ex-colonists just absorb what the television suitably tells them has more than a grain of truth. All i have stated is factual so yet again the main thrust is ignored and scoffing rants thrown in as an answer. Small wonder the country (US) is in a mess and the people either getting lied to or speared by the Goebells style war of words being presently dished out.
Russia stated from the early stage that there had to be dialogue between the Kiev junta and the East but was ignored but if Kerry now gets round to it then that is different of course! As the present President of Ukraine is not short of a a few banknotes he should get on well with the corporate rulers over the pond! May I yet again also remind that East Ukraine has a lot of the economy basis which you and your media brainers ignore. Let's not forget the killing of civilians in the East either. Today i noted a news comment about a number of Kiev soldiers killed by rebels and that one is interesting. I say that because the other way round it is mostly civilians who are getting murdered not the equivilant of soliders. Homes destroyed, while cities in as siege, water and electricity and food problems. Scores of thousands have had to flee over the Border as what else could they do?
The propaganda also stretches to the site of the downed plane. One report today indicated that due to the fighting still going on around a very wide crash site no-one has control but to date we have been bombasted by guff that it is rebel held! However the Kiev President says they are not going out to kill civilians and their homes and towns but they are and the US in being 100% behind that man is just as guilty. So you can spout out what you want about accusing me just because your news media treats you all like the brain dead and sanitises what you are told.
How interesting to note that the West's pals in that Kiev square - those neo-Nazis are still there and causing mayhem once more when the authorities tried to clear the place and started fighting the police - again! It is as I thought previously that they have an axe to grind and not letting to.They also fill the National Guard. One wonders why they still need to fight as they were very prominent in dissolving the previous legit government and then having some of the Nazi pals in as Ministers. Dear, oh dear.
Kremlin Confirms Sending Non-Military Convoy with Aid to East Ukraine (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140811/191923926/Kremlin-Confirms-Sending-Non-Military-Convoy-with-Aid-to-East-Ukraine.html)
Different from the Dutch Prime Minister, Putin is not the guy who'd promise something and then chicken out. The West has lost all chances to be relevant to the conflict in any way.
280 Russian trucks carrying 2,000 tons of humanitarian aid.
I miss images with trucks from Kiev carrying humanitarian aid. Kiev's humanitarian aid is probably carried by tanks and bomber jets.
The West has lost all chances to be relevant to the conflict in any way.
The West, I mean the European Union, has lost all chances to be relevant anywhere.
There's not any strategic concept regarding it's role in the world and even less the means or an unified will for applying it.
As for the USA, I don't know what's the actual strategy, assuming they have any but I think Putin to be a bit too grown boy to them to play with.
For strange (or not so strange) reasons, Putin is getting popular support amongst many Europeans that are clearly fascinated by the "advantages" a muscular, personified, autocratic regime has.
I don't trust a State turned into ex kgb agents personal
datcha, already armed with the best available weaponry that money can buy, and very specially when it borders Europe.
Too close to my likes to have such neighbor knocking at a defenseless Europe's door. And he's not the only one.
After Ukraine and Russia did agree on aid mission, Ukraine is now denying permission to the convoy.
Even Western media that supports the pack from Kiev reported about the agreement.
Now "in Kiev, a government source, who did not wish to be named, said there had been no agreement for Russian vehicles to cross into Ukraine."
Of course he did not wish to be named. How more perverse can it get?
For strange (or not so strange) reasons, Putin is getting popular support amongst many Europeans that are clearly fascinated by the "advantages" a muscular, personified, autocratic regime has.
Not as much fascinated by the "advantages" a muscular, personified, autocratic regime has but because they got tired of Washington's lies and its selfish acting/meddling all over the world, putting at risk the normal life of foes and friends.
Keep in mind that without US meddling and turning gas into the fire we wouldn't even have this thread about Ukraine.
Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?
Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East?
After Ukraine and Russia did agree on aid mission, Ukraine is now denying permission to the convoy.
Even Western media that supports the pack from Kiev reported about the agreement.
Ukraine agreed on Red Cross aid mission with EU, US, and Russian participation. When Russia hastes in alone, of course this means trouble - by design. It's like UN missions in South Ossetia and Abkhasia with only Russian participation.
Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?
Germany, by waving them with the impossible dream of a EU adhesion that had to necessarily break the country and open all the space Putin needed.
Not the first time, Germany did it before with a surrealist promise and invitation to Turkey, remember? Luckily to Europe, Turkey was much clever than Ukraine.
Disaster after disaster.
Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East?
I'm part of NATO, so does most of the western world. There's no obligations to dividing influence with Russia but the contrary, this is not a game to be balanced and leveled but a conquering game - that's what Putin is playing.
Russia it's winning for the moment being thanks to what I said - European's incompetence and American's terrified immobilization, they found someone that they can't play risks with.
Russia "humanitarian help"? that's an invasion for all effects. After the food you'll need to sent the troops. Putin knows it all...
Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?
Germany, by waving them with the impossible dream of a EU adhesion that had to necessarily break the country and open all the space Putin needed.
Not the first time, Germany did it before with a surrealist promise and invitation to Turkey, remember?
I also remember it exactly this way, with Germany leading. This Molotov-Ribbentrop Act II has been going on since Schröder. Really painful to watch, particularly in my location.
Who did promote the destabilization of the Ukraine?
Germany, ...
Germany as well, alongside with other vassals. However it wasn't Germany who spent 5 billions for regime change in Ukraine. Germany (FM Steinmeier) together with the FMs of France, Poland, the special representative of the President of the RF, Viktor Yanukovych and representatives of the opposition agreed on free elections.
The agreement was broken within 48 hours. The neofascist putschist group was imediatly recognized by the US and invited for talks to the USA. ("Fuck the EU")
In case you're short of memory, here's a 'trustworthy' source (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/ukraine-crisis-president-claims-deal-with-opposition-after-77-killed-in-kiev?view=desktop#block-5307624ae4b0b08ea9f4a437).
Not the first time, Germany did it before with a surrealist promise and invitation to Turkey, remember? Luckily to Europe, Turkey was much clever than Ukraine.
I remember perfectly. It's you who either distorts things on purpose or you speak about thinks you know little about.
It was Turkey who wanted by all means to enter the EU. Germany gave Turkey the status of a preferential partnership as an appeasement but was reluctant for more despite of US insistence. At the end Erdogan gave up.
Does Russia want to expand into the West or NATO into the East?
I'm part of NATO, ...
Congratulations :D
Let us know if you want to buy some more subs or frigates so you can be of some real use to NATO.
There's no obligations to dividing influence with Russia but the contrary,
Of course not. Ever heared about the Cuban missile crisis? How would the US react with Russian or Chinese military bases in their neck?
this is not a game to be balanced and leveled but a conquering game - that's what Putin is playing.
I see. The good guys on the one side and the bad guy on the other side.
Nice to have such an educated man for explaining it.
Just wondering if you would go to war (or sending your son to war) to fight for US geostrategic interests.
European's incompetence and American's terrified immobilization, they found someone that they can't play risks with.
Imobilization? Risks? Are you complaining that WWIII didn't start already? Be patiently.
BTW, are you perhaps at reading some philosophy book written by Senator John McCain?
Russia "humanitarian help"? that's an invasion for all effects.
You're once again right. I'm impressed by the fascinatingly clear vision of yours. Only a Western coalition led by the USA would be capable of an humanitarian aid.
But even better, let those terrorists starve to death or die to thirst. Who knows, maybe those Russian trucks are carrying thousands of Russian soldiers or some BUK missile systems.
Thousands of people are without access to water, electricity and medical aid in eastern Ukraine, the Red Cross said.
At least 1,500 people have died since Ukraine's new government sent in troops to put down an insurrection by pro-Russia separatists in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions in mid-April.
The fighting has displaced hundreds of thousands of people, many of whom have fled to Russia.
More than 800,000 fled to Russia till now and the exodus continues. Wonder why those people don't choose to flee to Kiev.
BTW, are you perhaps at reading some philosophy book written by Senator John McCain?
Nope. Reading an exemplar post about how northern European pacifists keeps on preferring red than dead. You can substitute red by Putin's colors, if he has any, the result being the same - the illusion that applauses and adulation will save you, no it will not.
In terms of geo strategy, for the best and the worst, the alliance with the USA it's everything Europeans have, to brake it without any alternative it's Putin's game. Meanwhile, Chinese laughs.
Wake up, Krake. Your (rightful) anti Americanism it's throwing you right into Putin's arms, not a pleasant place to be. :)
Now Poland is in tears due to the Russian reply boycott and others are beginning to wonder too including interviews I have seen with Spanish producers. Our whisky industry is starting to be worried in case it gets added. The trouble is that America doesn't need to bother it's bum about any return sanctions but Europe does. Indeed America even had the gall to tell Europe even if difficult to maintain the "principle." Now how damn hypocritical is that from a smug corner. Now the USA is mumblng about South American nations dealing with Russia in spite of sanctions but I doubt if they are going to do much in view of the big trade and Putin's recent tour. This is just another example of the ex-colonies whom if it declares something it is almost divinely right but anyone else is the very opposite and automatically out.
To make things worse the Kiev government has now listed a list of heavy sanctions against Russia trade-wise and it makes me shake my head at the crass stupidity of them. After all the east of Ukraine is where the main industry is and making it plain they don't care a damn about the people in that region. With the dead in the East now in 4 figures and virtually all civilians Kiev is in a roundaout fashion admitting what they have always denied - that they were not tar getting the innocent or their homes. pictures tell a different story as do the tens of thousands of innocents fleeing to Russia.
And as I have previously indicated the Ukrainian Army is not that wonderfully concerned. In their list they have also included a definite instruction that their soldiers and the Nazis in the National Guard can fire at will with no warning. Something they have been doing for weeks. Once the east has been quelled a legacy of mistrust will be left behind and the West is as guilty as the crackers in Kiev. Why too are the Nazi lot still in that Kiev square? Kiev just thinks they can stick the collecting can out to their bosom imperial pals in Washington DC
BTW, are you perhaps at reading some philosophy book written by Senator John McCain?
Nope. Reading an exemplar post about how northern European pacifists keeps on preferring red than dead. You can substitute red by Putin's colors, if he has any, the result being the same - the illusion that applauses and adulation will save you, no it will not.
So I was right. It seems you are reading indeed Mc Cain like wisdoms :)
Meanwhile, Chinese laughs.
At least we can agree on this one. Their fear that Russia could be integrated into Europe was successfully pulverized by our transatlantic masters. Nothing can now overshadow a long term Sino-Russian alliance.
That's just the beginning. We will witness more alliances in the near term. I doubt that any of us both will be enthusiastic about them.
Good luck my philosophic Portuguese hero!
Wake up, Krake. Your (rightful) anti Americanism it's throwing you right into Putin's arms, not a pleasant place to be. :)
I'm awake.
It seems that even some of the closest US enthusiasts are awakening too.
The below article is from the chief editor of "Handelsblatt" a business newspaper, as transatlantic friendly as you can get.
The West on the wrong path (http://www.handelsblatt.com/meinung/kommentare/essay-in-englisch-the-west-on-the-wrong-path/10308406.html)
Now Poland is in tears due to the Russian reply boycott ...
Not only Poland but all those dwarfs who have screamed for sanctions alongside the USA.
Now they are demanding reparations from Brussels. Wonder who they think will pay their losses. Greece? Portugal? Spain? Italy? France?
Germany can't bailout whole Europe even if it would want to. Nice perspective for Europe. And that US spokesman for Europe, Anders Fogh Rasmussen wants to sell more weapons as a way out.
Now Poland is in tears due to the Russian reply boycott and others are beginning to wonder too including interviews I have seen with Spanish producers.
Based on interviews with Spanish producers you would not see Poland in tears. Unless you are RJ.
Meanwhile, Chinese laughs.
At least we can agree on this one. Their fear that Russia could be integrated into Europe was successfully pulverized by our transatlantic masters. Nothing can now overshadow a long term Sino-Russian alliance.
The German (or krakean) hope that Russia could be integrated into Europe is futile imagination. Given Russian geopolitical essence and historical psyche, Russia can never be integrated. Particularly it cannot be integrated the way Germany planned to: Puffing Russia up by buying gas and flirting with Ukrainian integration at the same time, making Russia perceive an obvious double game. You had it coming that Russia would get upset and begin a war of some sort or another. For me the war in Europe started when Crimea was grabbed. The fact that Germany hasn't acknowledged the seriousness of the situation and that Ukraine (obedient to its "allies") didn't declare war at this early stage is just a formality on one hand and a political mistake on the other. Russians only have respect for those who beat them, such as Finns.
That the Chinese had any fear of Russian integration anywhere is complete delusion. China and Russia both view themselves as empires, ever-independent divine entities that integrate others whenever they please and never dissolve themselves. Yep, just like US.
Not only Poland but all those dwarfs who have screamed for sanctions alongside the USA.
Now they are demanding reparations from Brussels. Wonder who they think will pay their losses. Greece? Portugal? Spain? Italy? France?
Germany can't bailout whole Europe even if it would want to. Nice perspective for Europe. And that US spokesman for Europe, Anders Fogh Rasmussen wants to sell more weapons as a way out.
Absolutely every country between Germany and Russia saw Russian counter-sanctions coming from afar and spoke about it on the sanctions meetings. It's in the newspapers! (in ours at least, not in yours, I guess) The sanctions on EU side should have been designed to make it harder for Russia to apply counter-sanctions, but instead the big dummies chose to put together sanctions that would not be too hard on themselves, ending up with something that Russia counters and laughs at. Fail in every way, as predicted.
We here next to Russia have seen Russians playing a selective little-sanctions game throughout the decades, and we have been talking about it on the EU level all the time, but nobody was listening. Germany and France have not even listened even to Finland, the country who definitely knows Russia best and has demonstrated the shrewdest diplomacy in Russia-relations. Germany, France and UK have foolishly been playing their own games in their own disparate self-interests when they could have learned something important and built a EU that could have had some importance in the world arena.
And now when Russia imposes wider sanctions, to the alleged surprise of EU3, sanctions that hit the in-between countries hardest, even though we have suffered from this all along anyway without any EU attention paid to it, now Germany only sees it in terms of bailout? This EU must end better sooner than later. I want no part in this.
The German (or krakean) hope that Russia could be integrated into Europe is futile imagination. Given Russian geopolitical essence and historical psyche, Russia can never be integrated.
Russian psyche?
Another attempt to demonise an entire nation. Granted, it doesn't need a clear mind for such attempts. Blind hate mixed up with a certain ideology will suffice...
BTW, how about the German psyche? How about the Jewish psyche?
Don't be shy. Let us know.
Almost forgot, how about your psyche?
For me the war in Europe started when Crimea was grabbed.
The fact that the Crimeans have choosen to be part of the RF is only the logical consequence of the neofascist coup in Kiev.
At least they had luck.
The fact that Germany hasn't acknowledged the seriousness of the situation and that Ukraine (obedient to its "allies") didn't declare war at this early stage is just a formality on one hand and a political mistake on the other.
1. You mention Germany while omitting the role of the USA. Who was/is the main player in the conflict?
2. The Ukraine should have declared war to Russia?
Amazing what a sick mind can produce. However there are many sick minds floating around, so you can still hope to get the war you are dreaming of.
Absolutely every country between Germany and Russia saw Russian counter-sanctions coming from afar and spoke about it on the sanctions meetings...
We here next to Russia have seen Russians playing a selective little-sanctions game throughout the decades, and we have been talking about it on the EU level all the time, but nobody was listening... Germany, France and UK have foolishly been playing their own games in their own disparate self-interests
A single remark in form of a question you don't have to answer: Who kept/is still keeping the EU afloat?
The countries between Germany and Russia?
This EU must end better sooner than later. I want no part in this.
Europe never spoke with one voice. Now it does - with that of the USA.
So there is hope for you.
In case you are still disappointed - well, don't expect it to speak with the voice of the countries between Germany and Russia anytime soon.
Who kept/is still keeping the EU afloat?
Countries forced to buy submarines to Germany? :)
The submarines aren't bad but I would prefer the convertible model, we would sink faster and definitively...
Russian psyche?
Velikaya russkaya dusha. Ever heard? Of course not. And you will never understand it because you don't want to. Luckily someone has written an intro into the concept for you (http://www.friends-partners.org/oldfriends/spbweb/times/163-164/wrd-wrth.html). Note that this is not a theoretical thing or a point of debate. Everybody with any closer contact with Russians knows how Russians make everything to be about their dusha. You don't know it, so no contest.
1. You mention Germany while omitting the role of the USA. Who was/is the main player in the conflict?
Russia of course. Funny that you even have to ask.
2. The Ukraine should have declared war to Russia?
Russia is in undeclared war with Ukraine. See Crimea.
A single remark in form of a question you don't have to answer: Who kept/is still keeping the EU afloat?
The countries between Germany and Russia?
Is your answer
Germany, financially or, worse,
Germany and Russia, economically and geopolitically? Both answers show you don't see EU as a union and don't wish to see.
The one single answer for me is that EU stands on politicians as a class. It's an obvious class struggle - supranational/metropolitan politicians and cronies against the rest.
This EU must end better sooner than later. I want no part in this.
Europe never spoke with one voice. Now it does - with that of the USA.
Funny how Merkel is said to phone both Obama and Putin every day. What is there to talk about for them? Could it be something like:
Merkel to Putin: "Okay, take Crimea, but leave the rest of Ukraine intact. Okay, take Donetsk too, but give us more gas. What do you really want? Come on, you can tell me..."
Merkel to Obama: "Putin is as if living in another world..."
EU needs leaders with organic collegial spirit (this is another word translated as dusha in Russian), not someone who imagines it okay to call the shots alone, to assume tasks over her head, ending up like a headless chicken, committing everyone into the chicken soup. We have a bear as our neighbour and a puppet master on the other side of the pond with strings all over the continent. There could be some chance to kick some realistic perspective into the discussion when these minimal facts are recognised, but with a headless chicken in the lead I don't entertain any hopes.
Who kept/is still keeping the EU afloat?
Countries forced to buy submarines to Germany? :)
Huh? Did you say forced?
To your reminder: Dealing in the dark: Portugal’s sad defence contracts (http://blog.transparency.org/2012/09/03/dealing-in-the-dark-portugals-sad-case-study-on-defence-procurement/)
Huh? Did you say forced?
To your reminder: Dealing in the dark: Portugal’s sad defence contracts (http://blog.transparency.org/2012/09/03/dealing-in-the-dark-portugals-sad-case-study-on-defence-procurement/)
Why don't you read your own sources until the end?
No matter how many cunning politicians in Germany or Finland decry the fiscal irresponsibility of over-indebted euro countries, that fact is that much of the money that was misspent in Portugal, Spain, Italy or Greece has directly benefited big industries in the so-called “responsible” nations.
There you have it bolded and underlined.
Cappice? or do I have to explain you how these things are made?
You really have no idea about what your government does in order to maintain you wealthy and employed, you should thank Merkel everyday... :)
The one single answer for me is that EU stands on politicians as a class. It's an obvious class struggle - supranational/metropolitan politicians and cronies against the rest.
Well, well... hear, hear, hear...
It's not everyday that people can listen to this. Never free press was so much needed as today.
Why don't you read your own sources until the end?
Be sure I did. I was trying to give you an unbiased source. If my intention would have been to distort things like some others do be sure I would have given you another source. I could find more than one ;)
I agree that there are no inocents in this political blame game but telling that Portugal was
forced to buy, is a twist.
Don't you think so?
I agree that there are no inocents in this political blame game but telling that Portugal was forced to buy, is a twist.
Don't you think so?
No, I don't think so.
Submarines, or warships, airplanes, whatever, anything above let's say a dozen million euros, it's not simple commerce. You don't buy it just because the manufacturer's salesman entered your office offering it. It evolves governmental negotiations, with financing included - and there's where "pressures" begins.
The typical business for this dimension (we paid more than a billion euros for each submarine and we bought two) will evolve "counter-acquisitions". It means that you finance me one billion euros to me to buy you a nice piece of weaponry but, in return, you'll buy me shoes, wine or whatever for the same value. Germany never respected that part of the agreement.
Besides, returning to our small theater, you will "remember me" about the next European funds distribution and how well my agreement for the business will be seen by those that distributes the money, meaning yourself... :)
At the bottom line, this is very simple, who has the power forces, who doesn't it's forced.
And all this is related with Ukraine. You see, we had to buy submarines because we are a member of NATO and we respect our duties. Those submarines are specialized, in fact the state of art currently, at strategic communications and electronic war. That's our mission at the whole area of the Southern Atlantic.
Saw Putin entering the Southern Atlantic? course not, we are there. :)
It doesn't matter how often Russia has said it has no wish to take over east Ukraine it is ignored because it does not suit the mindset in the West or even here in this Forum. Russia now has what is it 200 lorries with aid and Kiev wants it dropped at the Border. All they had to do was check inside instead of being so damn stupid and over nationalistic. With increased deaths people desperate for food, lost homes due to Kiev's arrogance it makes one wonder about intelligence with some people. Russia is supposed to be 100% at fault and the West 100% moral. Such hypocrisy. Strikes me that Kiev doesn't care a damn how many innocents are killed in the East how many homes they destroy or tens of thousands fleeing over the Border. Although the East is the industrial powerhouse thhe Kiev lot think they can live off the US led West.Ukraine had a strong history of Nazi association during WW2 as it's nationalism was a step away from that political thinking. Indeed they still celebrate those Ukrainian SS men today. Morality in the West is a useless word.
Germany is playing a double game into the bargain going along with the US determination whilst it's commercial side is crying out against the sanctions! Russia has a right to introduce it's own in the face of the duplicity of the West and it will bite too. We started the roundabout.....
That's odd. How do you keep anything afloat in a convertible submarine?
It's not supposed to. :lol:
It's not supposed to. :lol:
I'm afraid you're missing something.
Methinks Belfrager and mjmsprt40 have choosen the language of allegorie.
Leme explain it to you :)
Firstly, Belfrager is comparing Portugal with a submarine.
Since the submarine needs a captain, Belfrager hires mjmsprt40 for the job.
Inspecting his new
truck submarine, mjmsprt40 exclaims: "That's odd. How do you keep anything afloat in a convertible submarine?"
It seems to replace ability to float with impressive styling. I'll have to think about this.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fsparkingtech.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2008%2F02%2Fsquba_1.jpg&hash=2d03657c041d27a87839eb8a6ab0a083" rel="cached" data-hash="2d03657c041d27a87839eb8a6ab0a083" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://sparkingtech.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/squba_1.jpg)
Well... submarines and warships (and oil tankers) that's what Crimea is about, isn't it?
The passage for the Mediterranean through the Bosphorus strait. The strait it's dominated by Turkey and I believe there was already a Russian-Turkish war because of that.
What do Turkey says to all this? Probably have been silent...
Possibly.
Everybody knows that the windshield wiper was invented in Portugal. The Americans just improved it by putting it to the outside.
:D
Krake, maybe Belfrager is right about comparing Portugal with a submarine. After all a sub goes down a lot and Portugal has been going down finacially for some time. Mind you a submarine can come back up a lot quicker.
Elsewhere on the webs-- I feel like I'm about to take part in the shakedown cruise of a convertible submarine-- with screen doors, no less. Dive test sometime late tomorrow.
By comparison, the stuff happening in Ukraine is almost a cakewalk.
Now Kiev claims they attacked and dealt a heavy blow on a Russian Army incursion into Ukraine. The limited photographs mean absolutely nothing and almost insults the intelligence. Firstly Kiev says it was a convoy of a limited number of personnel carriers. and if an army is going to invade they will have heavy vehicles, helicopters and much more. Secondly and even more important there was absolutely NO detail of the date or the time, etc.
Meanwhile more odd bombing at present is like the night bombing of a couple of months ago which looked very much like phosphorous. I will wait to see what Kiev says but won't hold my breath. At the White House pantomime, oops, news conference room the woman at the podium was asked if the Kiev lot could be more careful about heavy weapon bombing due to the innocent civilians being killed and got guff in reply. The woman from the propaganda corner said that they had asked Kiev to be careful but supported Kiev altogether!
If Kiev are going to maintain this complete stupidity of refusing the food and supply trucks for childish reasons then let the wonderful West and especially America and the EEC send 300 trucks in. Much of the infrastructure in the 2 regions has been destroyed and/or seriously damaged and will cost a pretty penny. Even more so as the East is the mainstay of the Ukraine economy. Trouble is the country is ruled and destabilised by the ultra-nationalist mindset in Kiev.
From the comments to http://online.wsj.com/articles/eu-mulls-further-action-after-russian-ban-1407414110
Has Russia ever been a colonial power?
Seriously?!
(Another commenter there already sufficiently addressed the other idiocy from that comment.)
Firstly Kiev says it was a convoy of a limited number of personnel carriers. and if an army is going to invade they will have heavy vehicles, helicopters and much more. Secondly and even more important there was absolutely NO detail of the date or the time, etc.
Third of all, why were Russia military trying to travel with Red Cross vehicles, which is against Red Cross policy? Yes, other sources besides Kiev and the US State Department confirm Russian Armored Personnel Carriers moving in Ukraine. Of course, Moscow denies this. But how many times does Putin need to lie before you see him for what he is - a liar?
But how many times does Putin need to lie before you see him for what he is - a liar?
Is there a shortage of liars? Seems nobody's word in this situation is all that dependable. Putin lies. Obama lies. I don't know who the acting head of the Ukraine government is, but--- surprise, he lies too! Much of the media involved in telling the story is state-controlled, so of course they tell the tale they're told to tell. The US media is "supposed" to be independent, but much of it is so biased one way or the other that a state-controlled media might actually be an improvement-- so of course they lie as the situation suits them.
No, I reckon there's no shortage of liars.
You're right about that. But in this instance, Putin lied from the word go. He claimed the unmarked troops in Crimea were not Russia. He later had to admit that the were. He tried to claim he didn't supply the separatists with BUK missiles. Yes, he did. Ectetera. I don't think a single truthful statement came out the Kremlin this whole time.
I don't think a single truthful statement came out the Kremlin this whole time.
The only truthful statements during this whole time came from the White House, the NATO HQ and Kiev.
How about more food for parroting?
I have met allies who can report that Russia, as part of their sophisticated information and disinformation operations, engaged actively with so-called non-governmental organizations -- environmental organizations working against shale gas -- to maintain European dependence on imported Russian gas. That is my interpretation.
- Anders Fogh Rasmussen
Just another clear evidence against Putin, brought up by our truth speeking Nato propaganda puppet.
Anybody for fracking in his/her neighborhood or are you all on Putin's pay roll?
One might wonder what they're smoking at NATO HQ. :doh:
You really are brain dead Sanguinemoon. Everything the Kremlin says is 100% bad and everything the White House says is 100% honest. Talk about in your face bias? I will repeat again. No date - no time - no place regarding the nonsense that Russian forces were in a convoy. Repeat again an invasion is not going to be a handful of personnel carriers. So anyone can produce pictures and do what they like with them and in view of the situation there should have been the details I have stated. May I also say dear n-brainer that already the Red cross has been looking at the contents of the lorries and the media has also seen inside them as well. Yet what do we get this hypo stuff that Russia is using this humanitarian project for an excuse to invade! Ukraine is teetering on the edge of financial collapse but you know what? The US never mind it's trillions of debt will do anything to get at any country (like Russia) which refuses to accept US hegemony of the world.
As for sanctions, voices in Europe are already bemoaning the retaliation from Russia and some politicians and a lot of commercial people even more so, arguing that a continuing spiral by repeated sanctions will make things worse in the world. President Putin did not do a tour of South America for the sun and many places there do not want involved in the US stupidity and that is to their benefit and Russia's
Does no harm in reminding of my much earlier matter of 2 journalists arrested in Ukraine and held while Kiev told everyone they had rocket firers. The White House simply repeated that and then surprise, surprise the 2 news men did not have the armaments at all. Was there an apology or withdrawal of the falseness? nope. Again months ago we had pictures shown to us on television claiming Russian tanks in Ukraine. Interesting that some here belabour me for mentioning tv reports and sneering at me but that matter was somehow different. As it eventually happened the tanks were over 100 miles from the Ukraine but again the US simply repeated what Kiev tells them.
Now the last large city about to be taken back has millions of pounds of damage, innocents killed and it is the centre for commercial activity in Ukraine. So all you good US taxpayers will be helping the rebuild of the economy now their Kiev pals have destroyed much of the Ukrainian industry in the East. Over 2,000 dead now and infrastructure damaged never mind a legacy of hate that will be left behind.
You really are brain dead Sanguinemoon. Everything the Kremlin says is 100% bad and everything the White House says is 100% honest
Now who's brain dead? Putin repeatedly said things that aren't true. Where those Russia troops in Crimea despite what Putin claimed? Yes. Have satellite images of BUK missile systems coming from Russia into the Ukraine been shown? Yes. Did Putin try to claim otherwise? Of course.
Repeat again an invasion is not going to be a handful of personnel carriers.
I never said it was. A full on invasion would involve tanks, jets, etc. The question isn't the number of APC. It's that Russia sent them in the first place. What nation on Earth would tolerate foreign troops just waltzing into their territory? Oh, yeah. Putin lied that there was an incident, Too bad NATO intelligence shows otherwise, but just can't confirm that Ukraine did destroy the column of Russian APCs that violated Ukrainian territory. Oh yeah, the blackbox findings from MH17 are consistent with a missile blast, not fire from Ukrainian fighterjet. Do you get it yet? There's a pattern of easily disproven lies from Putin.
Over 2,000 dead now and infrastructure damaged never mind a legacy of hate that will be left behind.
Yup, that's terrible. Now go make that complaint to your pal Vlad and tell him to stop claiming to be working for peace and supplying the separatists when he thinks everyone's back is turned.
Have satellite images of BUK missile systems coming from Russia into the Ukraine been shown? Yes.
Satellite images made by US intelligence? Where are those images?
Either you give a source for an official statemnt of US intellicence with the according proofs (e.g.: satellite photos) or you better quit trolling.
On the other hand there are satellite photos provided by Russian intelligence which confirm that the Ukraine has deployed 4 BUK missile systems in the region shortly before M17 was downed. No Western intelligence has questioned the authenticity of those photos which were presented officially but instead Western media prefere to ignore them.
Where's Google :p Or Yandex, well they'll probably not turn up results for you :p I personally used Bing. Saying "Where are those images?" doesn't cut when, in fact, the images are easy to find. Go get them. Did you forget about the rebels boasting of downing an aircraft with BUK missiles? Russia made its claims on July 17 about Ukrainian BUK missiles. Then Putin's story changed to Ukrainian jet fighters, so apparently they couldn't even make themselves Ukraine shot down the MH17 with missiles and can't even keep the story straight on how to blame Kiev. Yes, I know what that investigator said but Putin said this before he did. I wonder if his bank account grew any? Thank you for reminding us of another one of Putin's lies. This is the trouble with lying as much as Putin does. You get yourself tangled up in your own web of deception.
Where's Google :p Or Yandex, ...
Your babble gets tiresome.
Give a source of an official statemnt made by US intellicence with the according proofs (e.g.: satellite photos) or quit trolling.
You really are getting pathetic Sanguinemoon. No place no date no time and you just simply accept the propaganda you accuse others of accepting against your pathetic stance. When Russia has produced something they have shown their ding properly on the screen but you automatically rubbish such but you are quite prepared to take another "Intelligence Dept" at face value with no proof? Hardly a very strong basis for anything. Where actually is the proof of them attacking and destruction of a Russian convoy of vehicles. Showing "evidence" without any practical details amounts to a hill of beans. I like baked ]beans but don't like seeing them misused!
Kiev comes out with tripe after tripe. I also include the damn and scurrilous midden about not aiming at civilians their homes and livelihood. Yet what do we actually see? A large city and centre of the industry income of Ukraine being slowly rampaged along with villages that do not have rebel fighters. Power interrupted, water being cut off, food supplies, 2,000 killed and still the bl;itkreig goes on. Keeping nearly 300 supplies lorries at a border while people die lose homes and starve is a monumental disgrace and your mindset thinks this is principled action? With the industrial centre ion the East being ravaged by a State teetering on the edge of failure you could not make this scenario up.
Weak excuses are being made by Kiev on the supply convoy and quite content to destroy innocent homes, villages, infrastructure and fall back on blaiming Russia. Had Russia wanted to invade the damn place it could have and squashed the Ukrainian Army.
One bit of good news. After 400 Ukrainian Army soldiers defected to Russia last month another 14 have joined them.
Disinformation and lies presented as 'clear' evidence by Western mass media. The usual brainwashing that will most likely work on half-brained individuals.
One of the latest examples: "Ukrainian rebels are receiving new armoured vehicles and fighters trained in Russia"
Did Mr Zakharchenko, prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) indeed made such a statement or was he misquoted on purpose?
At least BBC, which isn't always as unbiased as one might think, puts it right this time.
source (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28817347)
Perhaps I should say that there are feelings here that the BBC has NOT been as middle of the road as it should be and I have squirmed at some of the bias comments. Channel 4 News, ITV News, Sky UK have all been very cleverly the same!
Meanwhile offical European observers at crossing points have indicated no Russian military vehicles crossing at 2 points they are watching. Of course they aren't at them all but there again anyone can go there take pictures and have a date and time. There is no definite evidence that the military has crossed the Border into Ukraine. That Kiev continues to refuse the supply convoy over the Border is a disgrace. For a government claiming to not bother civilians it is an added nonsense due to the homes, services, etc that have been destroyed and the number of deaths. President Putin is meeting with the Kiev President I think it is next week where one hopes some sense will prevail and the suffering people get what they need. The West should be pushing for the aid to go in. With so much destruction being heaped on the East which is the main centre for industry Ukraine is not doing itself any favours but probably thinks it will get unlimited money dished out by the West.
All over the place now: Russia has sent more than 100 aid lorries into eastern Ukraine - without permission from authorities in Kiev. (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28909863)
From what's been reported in various places, the lorries are basically empty. They are the model used by Russian military for troops transport, but painted white. If they are empty, it's nothing but provocation. The lorries are not meant to bring aid or relief, but at best to transport something (or someone) back to Russia. At worst, they carried something else and were emptied before being inspected.
(Most of this is my own conjecture. Feel free to prove me wrong.)
It reminds me of an old joke: to make it very short a man was pushing a wheelbarrow out of an army base with bricks in it. Every time he was searched but the guards could find nothing special about the bricks. This happened many times.
Years later a friend asked him if he was smuggling anything;
he replied "Oh yes - it was wheelbarrows".
I wonder how many army lorries went back to Russia.
Meanwhile offical European observers at crossing points have indicated no Russian military vehicles crossing at 2 points they are watching. Of course they aren't at them all but there again anyone can go there take pictures and have a date and time.
They have dates and times. What is your news source? RT? What disease makes you think your government and its allies are all lying as Putin, the serial liar whose lies I pointed out to you multiple times, is telling the truth. Providing you with photos is futile. You'll just claim they're all fake. Really? You want them? Okay. Thursday, August 14 2014. A military convoy including Armored Personal Carriers separate from the supposed aid convoy. Photo included (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border). What now? The report is just making it up?
With so much destruction being heaped on the East which is the main centre for industry Ukraine is not doing itself any favours but probably thinks it will get unlimited money dished out by the West.
Again, tell your pal Putin to stop stoking the fires of civil war. Without a doubt, Kiev did cause its share of damage. Now ask yourself why.
Providing you with photos is futile. You'll just claim they're all fake. Really? You want them? Okay. Thursday, August 14 2014. A military convoy including Armored Personal Carriers separate from the supposed aid convoy. Photo included (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/14/russian-military-vehicles-enter-ukraine-aid-convoy-stops-short-border). What now? The report is just making it up?
That's your 'clear' evidence. Isn't it?
Even a half-brained should have become suspicious by reading such a story.
The Guardian saw a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers, supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles with official Russian military plates, travelling towards the border near the Russian town of Donetsk – about 200km away from Donetsk, Ukraine.
- So the picture of the armoured personnel carrier was taken on Russian territory.
After pausing by the side of the road until nightfall, the convoy crossed into Ukrainian territory, using a rough dirt track and clearly crossing through a gap in a barbed wire fence that demarcates the border.
- Did the reporter had the balls to follow the 23 armoured personnel carriers?
- Was the reporter equipped with night vision devices? Otherwise it's impossible to see a gap in a barbed wire fence from the distance at night.
- Do armored vehicles need a gap for passing through a barbed wire fence? If Russia wants to enter Ukrainian territory would it look for a gap in a fence?
Is the picture of armored personnel carriers taken on Russian territotory the only proof? Are narratives the only proof?
However this fishy story served Kiev as a template for their incredible claim which followed promtly, namely that they have destroyed those armoured personnel carriers.
Of course, another empty claim without any evidence as usual.
It wouldn't be hard to get up some evidence of a destroyed armoured convoy. Would it?
The only way of knowing things it's going there.
People have the illusion that they can sit at home and know. They can't.
Is the picture of armored personnel carriers taken on Russian territotory the only proof? Are narratives the only proof?
Meanwhile, your only contribution is "where's the proof?", despite photos and reported sightings of Russian military vehicles violating Ukrainian territory. Really? So every Western journalist that's been there is lying? That's what you're saying if you realize it or not. All the Western governments are lying as well? Not even just Western or Ukrainian. Now we have the Lithuanian government reporting it. Do you even understand how this stretches credulity? Putin, who was caught lying to the world multiple times through this and the Crimean affair is suddenly the honest one. Is that was you're really trying to tell us?
- Did the reporter had the balls to follow the 23 armoured personnel carriers?
You can't be fucking serious. He was at the border watching them cross.
- Do armored vehicles need a gap for passing through a barbed wire fence?
Meaningless. They were observed crossing the gap. If they actually need a gap or not is beside the point.
Now about this.... http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/europe/russia-moves-artillery-units-into-ukraine-nato-says.html
WASHINGTON — The Russian military has moved artillery units manned by Russian personnel inside Ukrainian territory in recent days and was using them to fire at Ukrainian forces, NATO officials said on Friday.
The West has long accused Russia of supporting the separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, but this is the first time it has said it had evidence that the Russian military was operating in Ukrainian territory.
The Russian move represents a significant escalation of the Kremlin’s involvement in the fighting there and comes as a convoy of Russian trucks with humanitarian provisions has crossed into Ukrainian territory without Kiev’s permission.
Since mid-August NATO has received multiple reports of the direct involvement of Russian forces, “including Russian airborne, air defense and special operations forces in Eastern Ukraine,” said Oana Lungescu, a spokeswoman for NATO.
Oh I know. "Where's the satellite photos that I'll immediately discount?"
Well, satellite images of fire from Russia into Ukraine have already been released.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53d52bdb6bb3f761044bbf0e-800-%2Fenhanced-25261-1406473537-6.png&hash=d5b23f1af62cd33d33013c1591e2a7a3" rel="cached" data-hash="d5b23f1af62cd33d33013c1591e2a7a3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/53d52bdb6bb3f761044bbf0e-800-/enhanced-25261-1406473537-6.png)
That's fake too, I take it? source (http://www.businessinsider.com/us-heres-where-russian-troops-are-shelling-ukraine-2014-7)
Russia has every reason to deny everything. Washington has little to gain and much to lose by falsely accusing the Kremlin.
Meanwhile, your only contribution is "where's the proof?"
Does it trouble you if someone is asking for proof if baseless claims were done?
All the Western governments are lying as well?
You mean the coalition of willing? Hmm, it wouldn't be for the first time.
Do you remember the lies about Iraq? Allegations -> faked proofs -> bombings -> invasion -> destabilization -> civil war -> hour of birth of ISIL.
despite photos and reported sightings of Russian military vehicles violating Ukrainian territory. Really?
Photos of Russian military vehicles made on Russian territory? Really? Where are those photos of Russian military vehicles on Ukrainian territory?
Where is the proof of the destroyed Russian armored convoy? That wasn't a simple lie of Kiev/Poroshenko but a blatant lie.
The chief propagandist of the NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen took that lie also as a 'clear' evidence.
He was at the border watching them cross.
That wasn't supposed to be an official border crossing point. Was it? Was he guarding the board in the pampas or was he waiting for Godot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waiting_for_Godot) there?
Now about this.... http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/europe/russia-moves-artillery-units-into-ukraine-nato-says.html
Yet another allegation without any proof which we can dismiss as usual propaganda.
Well, satellite images of fire from Russia into Ukraine have already been released.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic1.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F53d52bdb6bb3f761044bbf0e-800-%2Fenhanced-25261-1406473537-6.png&hash=d5b23f1af62cd33d33013c1591e2a7a3" rel="cached" data-hash="d5b23f1af62cd33d33013c1591e2a7a3" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/53d52bdb6bb3f761044bbf0e-800-/enhanced-25261-1406473537-6.png)
Satellite images of fire from Russia into Ukraine? Really?
Did US Fake Satellite Images to Show Russia Shelled Eastern Ukraine? (http://www.ibtimes.co.in/us-faked-images-russian-shells-fired-ukraine-605578)
Another State Department Hoax? — Paul Craig Roberts (http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/27/another-state-department-hoax-paul-craig-roberts/)
“These materials were posted to Twitter not by accident, as their authenticity is impossible to prove – due to the absence of the attribution to the exact area, and an extremely low resolution. Let alone using them as ‘photographic evidence’,” Igor Konashenkov, the official representative of the ministry, stated.
Last but not least - how comes that the US Department doesn't refer to its own intelligence which is supposed to have the most powerful reconnaissance satellite system but preferes to buy worthless images of a private company (DigitalGlobe) and refers to them instead.
Not even a German military expert confronted with those images by "Der Spiegel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel)" could draw any stalwart conclusions from those images. However people like you can and are presenting them as 'clear' evidence.
Sanguinemoon is very selective in his journalistic backups is he not? If Kiev tells him and the White House something it is Gospel and if not then, well overlook it! There is NO evidence of Russian Army convoys IN Ukraine. We have seen repeated short films of military vehicles but no report as to where they were. They even included one convoy over a hundred miles from Ukraine's border for goodness sake. Add to that the brain insulting stuff that Russia could use the nearly 300 supply trucks as an opportunity to invade.For crying out loud how juveniles does the rubbish have to be and accepted yet again as 100% truth. No evidence whatsoever. Meanwhile the White House and Kiev show no great sympathy for all the innocent Ukrainians being killed even in areas where there is no conflict at all. Maybe Sanguinemoon when he gets home from the Kindergarten could inform us more on that one too. It is just blind acceptance of anything from the West. It does not matter how many times the Russian Foreign Secretary or indeed President says they are not interested in Ukraine the Sanguinemoon brain cells refuses any deviation from plans that don't exist.
Russia has spent a great deal of money supplying nearly 300 trucks that were kept waiting at the damn Border by the Kiev nutters. That people were finding it difficult to get water, electricity blocked, people starving (thanks to Kiev backed by Obama) the persecuted although in Ukraine speak Russian so that is enough to get done in.Even the picture i mentioned before of a Russian convoy "in Ukraine" was just blithely accepted by his gormless mindset. No date, time or place. On top of that had their been such an event the big bear would not have sent a small group of personell carriers toinvade a country. There would be tanks, planes, helicopters and so on.
It is utterly shameful the gobbleygook being spouted by the West on a fictitious Russian situation. May I also remind that Russia was supplying the Keiv nutters with power at a reduced rate and still NOT paid. Merkel is two-faced because she knows her farmers and industrial side is screaming blue blood as are other in Europe on the sanctions. At the same time she dishes out that loan to a State that cannot even pay cut price fuel bills. Had Russia got totally exasperated at the way East Ukraine was being treated and wanted to invade they could have done so and pulverised the Ukrainian Amy and the neo-Nazis of the National Guard.
Right through a convoluted baloney by the West, Russia has ran a positive and constructive diplomatic coup whilst the brain dead in the West are brained into total keech.
I love this thread.
The O.P. hinted in its name that it would be tripe, but in case we were inclined not to believe him, he removed all doubt by starting as follows: "I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff".
Pure gold.
There is NO evidence of Russian Army convoys IN Ukraine. We have seen repeated short films of military vehicles but no report as to where they were.
I guess you must mean besides all the reports of where they were? I see. So the Russian APC crossed the gap and turned around and went home?
. It does not matter how many times the Russian Foreign Secretary or indeed President says they are not interested in Ukraine the Sanguinemoon brain cells refuses any deviation from plans that don't exist.
It boggles the mind that you still believe Putin after I pointed out to specific times he's lied
At the same time she dishes out that loan to a State that cannot even pay cut price fuel bills.
That's way she issued the loan in the first place, Howie. First the pro-Russian old president runs the country into the ground, then Russia seizes Crimea. I already supplied satellite of images of shelling from Russia into Ukraine and all the while Putin continues to supply separatists to keep civil war going and you fault Ukraine for not being able to pay its gas bill? With all the damage Russia caused, they probably should pay Ukraine now.
Russia has spent a great deal of money supplying nearly 300 trucks that were kept waiting at the damn Border by the Kiev nutters.
If I came to your house and rob you, are gonna let me in again even if I promise a return of your stuff?
First the pro-Russian old president runs the country into the ground,
...
If I came to your house and rob you, are gonna let me in again even if I promise a return of your stuff?
Yet another 2 statements showing your crass ignorance.
1. The pro-Russian old president? He wasn't pro-Russian at all. Relationship between Putin and Yanukovych has been always strained, to say the least.
Do you remember the gas conflict from few years ago? I assume that even your media mentioned about it.
In change for a corrupt and selfish Yanukovych, Ukrainians got now a mixture of oligarchs and right wing nationalists. Wish them good luck!
2. For your enlightenment - in 2012 Ukrainian GDP (gross domestic product) was 69% of the GDP it had at the time before it left the Russian Federation (1990).
Wonder how Ukrainian GDP will look at the end of 2014.
Add to this the energy supply at a discount rate from Russia, which will probably end forever.
Therefore many Ukrainians (especially in the East) think that they would be better off within the Russian Federation.
So far about your stupid comment of coming into your house and robing.
These are facts in contrast to your continued ignorant babbling. You should really inform yourself before going ahead with your trolling.
Our media has its problems, but at least its not under the thumb of the state, like RT is. Did you hear about the American journalists and reporters that were honor bound to quit RT because they knew it propaganda and bullshit? Or maybe in your country they put another spin on it.
Do you even know what our media is reporting? I don't think you actually. You think it's propaganda written in the White House and approved by Obama himself, don't you? How many layers deep is the lies of your state run media, anyway?
This is pretty typical:
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/24/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html
Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- Armed pro-Russian rebels paraded dozens of captured Ukrainian soldiers through the streets of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine on Sunday afternoon, the rebel stronghold's counterprotest to Ukraine's Independence Day celebrations in other parts of the divided country.
A crowd of more than 1,000 people gathered to jeer and throw bottles at the prisoners, several of whom had bandaged heads and other wounds, calling them "fascists," "Nazis" and "traitors." The march started around 2 p.m. and lasted just a few minutes.
"The people came out to see the soldiers who had been shelling them around the clock, thanking the separatists for protecting them," said freelance journalist Maximilian Clarke, who witnessed the parade near Donetsk's Lenin Square. The rebels aren't foreigners who have invaded this city, he said. "The separatists here are locals; they are known here."......
Note it point out the bad behavior of crowd and the separatists. Parading captured troops loyal the government around. I thought this was was 2014, not 14 in imperial Rome. And they don't stop the crowd from throwing bottles at the prisoners like fucking animals. But it also notes those people view the rebels as protectors and that they're locals, not Russian troops in disguise.
Later on the article notes:
A day earlier, a convoy of Russian trucks that had crossed that country's border into eastern Ukraine without Kiev's authorization returned to Russia, international monitors said Saturday.
In total, 227 vehicles were sent into territories held by pro-Russian rebels on Friday, according to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which has an observer mission at the checkpoint the convoy went through.
By Saturday afternoon, they had all returned to Russia after delivering aid to the city of Luhansk, a stronghold for the pro-Russia rebels that has been caught up in conflict.
It notes that the aid had indeed been delivered. Also note how our media portrays Luhansk.
Who told your media is hellbent on demonizing Russia? It's not. Of course there are bad media outlets here, as everywhere. But if you take your time and check multiple sources, not treat some wanker's blog as a reliable outlet, etc you can discern the truth.
The truth is that much of Putin's actions have been less than admirable.
Now you accuse me of trolling. Okay, I provided satellite imagery of fire from Russia into Ukraine. I provided accounts and images of Russian military vehicles entering Ukraine. What they were doing there I have no idea, but nobody does this who's upto any good. Far from trolling, that's telling you directly what happened and providing evidence. All you can say is "where's the proof?" Bear with me for a moment as I illustrate how rare 100% proof is. Prove to me that you exist. I might be dreaming all this. You show your birth certificate. I might be dreaming that, too. Or more credibly, you show it and I can't make out the Russian well enough for it to be proof for me. There are as many angles and sides to every situation as there are people involved and there's almost always angle that evidence presented isn't absolute proof. However, there is preponderance of evidence.
That preponderance of evidence tells us that most likely Russian military vehicles violated Ukrainian territory and Putin indeed armed the separatists. In the nuances of the English language, that doesn't mean he supplied all the weapons, but some of them.
You accuse the Ukrainian government of being composed of right-wing nationalists. Perhaps there are some, but did you miss all those stories in late March and April about the police clashing with those types of people? Funny how you can repeatedly demand "proof" from me while not supplying evidence to support your claim that the entire Ukrainian government is like that nor too many of other claims for that matter. Who's trolling now?
Meanwhile
'Column from Russia' moves on Mariupol (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28924945)
Ukraine's military said border guards had halted the column about 5km (3 miles) north-east of Novoazovsk, which is about 10km from the frontier in the far south-east of Ukraine.
Heavy clashes were reported at the village of Markyne.
One commander of a Ukrainian national guard unit in the area told Reuters news agency: "A war has broken out here."
This situation is getting out of control.
@string
From the BBC article:
The Ukrainian military says it is battling rebel armoured vehicles that crossed from Russia
So the Ukrainian military says. What Kiev says should be taken with a pinch of sault. It's much easier to claim something than providing stalwart evidence.
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.
More than 2,000 people have died in recent months in fighting between Ukrainian government forces and the separatists. Some 330,000 people have been displaced.
"The United Nations' refugee agency said on Tuesday that more than 700,000 people have left Ukraine for Russia during the country’s four months of conflict. In addition, 117,000 people were displaced inside Ukraine."
One might wonder why those 700,000 people prefered to flee to Russia instead of Ukraine. All of them must be terrorists...
BTW, the exodus continues with more than 1000 people per day.
The BBC's David Stern describes how the captured soldiers were marched through Donetsk
That's indeed humilating and against the Geneva convention.
On the other hand shelling dense populated areas like the Ukrainian forces do is also against the Geneva convention.
Wonder which of the both is worse. The last gets often ignored by Western media.
BTW, how comes that the crowd is so enraged over those captured soldiers? Are most of Donetsk's residents terrorists?
@krake - yes I too noted "Ukrainian military says" and assigned it in my mind as "provisional information". I don't believe it all, but something is happening since it's clear that Russia is assisting the Rebels and deliberately stoking the situation.
The right course would be to get the participants to talk but neither side seem to want that particularly.
However I blame Russia and specifically the wee man in the Kremin for the initiation of this crisis. It could have been dampened down so easily if Russia had taken a less confrontational and more hones stance at the beginning.
You accuse the Ukrainian government of being composed of right-wing nationalists.
...
Funny how you can repeatedly demand "proof" from me while not supplying evidence to support your claim that the entire Ukrainian government is like that nor too many of other claims for that matter. Who's trolling now?
You can find sources even in Western media which otherwise is anything else than unbiased.
How about Channel4 (http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right)?
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.
So? The Dutch military easily has over 10 times as many weapons and vehicles as there is qualified personnel that can use it. Or maybe it's a little less these days, with the Cold War further and further behind us. I'd find that plausible enough if one assumes they captured a weapons stockpile or something.
NB They're probably lying, but it's not a priori ridiculous.
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.
I'd find that plausible enough if one assumes they captured a weapons stockpile or something.
NB They're probably lying, but it's not a priori ridiculous.
It wasn't my point that it is a priori ridiculous or implausible. On the contrary, in case they are telling the truth then more armored vehicles 'from Russia' would make little sense.
On the other hand, Kiev would hardly admit that the rebels are using captured armored vehicles. That could explain their mantra of 'armored vehicles from Russia'.
And apart from capturing vehicles they also paraded Ukrainian solider prisoners. Elsewhere an ammunition factory. None of this suits Sanguinemoon who would get lost in an enquiry office! He just trots out Kiev/White House propaganda as Gospel and anything outside of that must automatically be wrong. Do hope when he leaves school he becomes more aware and adult.
Some of the propaganda was that the near 300 lorries were an invasion. Now that is a new way of describing thousands of people without power, water, food being helped. Or is Western propaganda just to let these people suffer to suit the Kiev liars? Even if Kiev does overtake the rebels a legacy of distrust and dislike is being left in the east amongst hundreds of thousands let as they are. Totally innocents lying in streets and not involved or even near a fighting place are also killed by the super nationalists in Kiev. Even the suggestion of more local autonomy is being ignored by Ukraine and the President has now sacked the parliament and they will have an election in the middle of this disgusting carnage on their own people. Thank heavens Russia did something and will do more. The Sanguinemoon thinking (hhhmh) does nothing to fathom that the industry income is in the East which is being destroyed that the damn country is getting loans and how will it pay them? Judging by the fact they still haven't paid Russia who they are sniping at for reduced cost power supplies says something too.
Europe IS now starting to suffer for the retaliation sanctions by Moscow which was perfectly entitled to do that. They were being castigated unfairly and now things are in a downward spiral for farmers, etc all over the place. Much of the lost markets in Poland and elsewhere will found they will be replaced by Russia getting the stuff elsewhere. There were millions in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union who were Sanguinemoon clones but I had mistakenly thought the world had moved on but it is like the poor = such will seemingly always be with us! :faint:
So the Ukrainian military says. What Kiev says should be taken with a pinch of sault. It's much easier to claim something than providing stalwart evidence.
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.
Yes, the Ukrainian military says. I was addressing your complaints of western media, so note the reporting. It's not reported as fact, but rather as a statement from the Ukrainian military.
@krake - yes I too noted "Ukrainian military says" and assigned it in my mind as "provisional information". I don't believe it all, but something is happening since it's clear that Russia is assisting the Rebels and deliberately stoking the situation.
Exactly.
On the other hand shelling dense populated areas like the Ukrainian forces do is also against the Geneva convention.
What of artillery fire from Russia into Ukraine?
He just trots out Kiev/White House propaganda as Gospel and anything outside of that must automatically be wrong. Do hope when he leaves school he becomes more aware and adult.
I can see why you would say that. You didn't read a single thing I said for understand, that's why :faint:
I was addressing your complaints of western media,
Not only of Western media but also of the US State Department and NATO officials.
Last but not least I was adressing your own unproven allegations which you are trying to sell as facts.
Yet another such an allegation you are continuing to parrot:
:D
What of artillery fire from Russia into Ukraine?
What? Short of memory? Look here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?PHPSESSID=340f98cf5487406cfa2c5b6b7e7fe790&topic=194.msg26178#msg26178).
BTW,
Russia warns Ukraine of ‘irreversible consequences’ after cross-border shelling (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/russia-warns-ukraine-of-irreversible-consequences-after-cross-border-shelling/2014/07/13/d2be1bb0-0a85-11e4-8341-b8072b1e7348_story.html)
Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s FaultPublished by the Council on Foreign Relations:
According to the prevailing wisdom in the West, the Ukraine crisis can be blamed almost entirely on Russian aggression. Russian President Vladimir Putin, the argument goes, annexed Crimea out of a long-standing desire to resuscitate the Soviet empire, and he may eventually go after the rest of Ukraine, as well as other countries in eastern Europe. In this view, the ouster of Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych in February 2014 merely provided a pretext for Putin’s decision to order Russian forces to seize part of Ukraine.
But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis. ---> (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault)
And no, the "Council on Foreign Relations (CFR)" isn't something controlled by allmighty Putin, nor is it a leftist consortium you might find unreliable.
What? Short of memory? Look here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?PHPSESSID=340f98cf5487406cfa2c5b6b7e7fe790&topic=194.msg26178#msg26178).
What? Short of memory? Look here (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?PHPSESSID=340f98cf5487406cfa2c5b6b7e7fe790&topic=194.msg26178#msg26178).
See, I supply what you ask for and you call it fake? Meanwhile you supply a article that provides no evidence at all.
Why the Ukraine Crisis Is the West’s Fault
Published by the Council on Foreign Relations:
I could read the article of this "But this account is wrong: the United States and its European allies share most of the responsibility for the crisis." Are they on crack? Meth? Russia annexing Crimea, etc is because NATO expanded? I'm not going to dignify that with a real response.
I made the mistake of reading a little further:
Russia’s invasion of Georgia in August 2008 should have dispelled any remaining doubts about Putin’s determination to prevent Georgia and Ukraine from joining NATO.
Therefore it's NATO's fault? Holy shit. Just wow.
Putin’s actions should be easy to comprehend. A huge expanse of flat land that Napoleonic France, imperial Germany, and Nazi Germany all crossed to strike at Russia itself, Ukraine serves as a buffer state of enormous strategic importance to Russia. No Russian leader would tolerate a military alliance that was Moscow’s mortal enemy until recently moving into Ukraine. Nor would any Russian leader stand idly by while the West helped install a government there that was determined to integrate Ukraine into the West.
This somehow gives him license to annex Ukrainian territory and stoke the fires of civil war in mainland Ukraine? If this is really his thinking, he needs to go for the sake of Russia itself.
Therefore it's NATO's fault? Holy shit. Just wow.
It's basically a very long-winded explanation for how it was really the woman's fault for wearing too short a skirt.
This somehow gives him license to annex Ukrainian territory and stoke the fires of civil war in mainland Ukraine? If this is really his thinking, he needs to go for the sake of Russia itself.
Like they say (or indirectly imply), Realpolitik is Machiavellian. To call it realism is just silly. It's simply the idea of how to acquire the most wealth and power for your own country without paying much attention to ethical or moral considerations.
It's basically a very long-winded explanation for how it was really the woman's fault for wearing too short a skirt.
Feel free to twist it as you wish:
It wasn't Russia who assisted the putsch.
It wasn't Eastern Ukraine who attacked Kiev.
As for Crimea, whether you like it or not, the people living there is more than happy for being 'annexed'.
It's simply the idea of how to acquire the most wealth and power for your own country.
Exactly, except in this case we have probably different countries in mind...
without paying much attention to ethical or moral considerations.
After all that happened during the past two decades in Afghanistan, Serbia, Iraq, Lybia, Syria (the list isn't by far complete) you have the nerve to speak about ethical or moral considerations? One might wonder which yours are.
As a side note:
The USA urged the EU for economic sanctions against Russia (I assume that's no need to provide sources).
- In the meanwhile ExxonMobil and BP extend partnerships with Russia's state-owned oil company Rosneft despite sanctions.
- Despite sanctions against Russia, U.S. companies still buy Russian Rockets (SpaceX rockets - RD-180 boosters).
One might wonder whom those sanctions should weaken - the EU?
So far about too short skirts (and whores).
Exactly, except in this case we have probably different countries in mind...
The article you linked is the one that lamented that the US doesn't do Realpolitik while Russia does, not me. I'm not so sure the US doesn't do Realpolitik.
After all that happened during the past two decades in Afghanistan, Serbia, Iraq, Lybia, Syria (the list isn't by far complete) you have the nerve to speak about ethical or moral considerations? One might wonder which yours are.
I'm not even sure what you think I said. I was just disagreeing generically with the article that "Realpolitik" and "realism" are related terms. Realpolitik is a particular ideology, not the lack of one, nor does the presence of ideology have anything to do with the absence or presence of realism. But on rereading I may have misinterpreted and it seems to use realism to describe the kind of political ideology meant by Realpolitik, which leaves me to wonder how one is left to describe a realistic view regarding some country's possible reaction to some event. For instance, when Spock said something like "surely those irrational cavemen will abide their attacks when we show them our superior firepower" he definitely wasn't being realistic/rational because he assumed the irrational brutes would behave rationally. (Hence why referring negatively to Vulcans when someone speaks favorable of rationality is sometimes called a Straw Vulcan. :P)
All that aside, your reply seems to reiterate the same tu quoque (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.msg17423#msg17423) I don't understand. On top of which, even though I find the tu quoque invalid by itself, I was never in favor of the invasions in the Middle East nor were many European countries. And it remains unclear to me how that means I should suddenly stop objecting just because it's someone else I'm objecting to.
Putin has no wish to extend back to what was the old Soviet Empire. Had he, ukraine would have been done in by now. Now we get all the noise from NATO about Ukraine which is nothing to do with them. So then they come up with a make believe on Russia and suggest more troops dumped into the Baltic States. All mythology and anyway as Ukraine isn't in NATO that organisation should keep itself from interfering everywhere it wants. In addition they cannot get the members to increase military opening anyway for local and Euro currency problems.
All sorts of scenarios are being conjured up by the West because they cannot control Russia like they try to do elsewhere. As the US of recent times has been unable to have a principled and sensible leader it is either envious of President Putin or annoyed with a country they cannot dominate....Hhhh, yeah....that will be it!
As promised.
More tripe.
Had he, ukraine would have been done in by now.
Either that or because Putin knows that would be World War III
All mythology and anyway as Ukraine isn't in NATO that organisation should keep itself from interfering everywhere it wants
NATO is interfering by Russia's actions aren't? Has the Irn Bru gone your head?
Not only of Western media but also of the US State Department and NATO officials.
Not only of Western media but also of the US State Department and NATO officials.
Last but not least I was adressing your own unproven allegations which you are trying to sell as facts.
:faint: Despite the fact that I just showed you that "western media" (as if it's some monolithic entity that reports the stories in the same way...) is not necessarily reporting the story is the way you allege? Certainly the State Department would like "western media" to only show their side, but that's not how it works in the West. Hence reporting what the Ukrainian government says, but also giving the Russian government's rebuttal. Our media will turn on a president and the government very quickly. Your media might parrot what Putin says, but ours has offered harsh criticism of our government's actions (NSA surveillance , etc.) I'm not sure how to make you understand this.
Putin has no wish to extend back to what was the old Soviet Empire. Had he, ukraine would have been done in by now. Now we get all the noise from NATO about Ukraine which is nothing to do with them. So then they come up with a make believe on Russia and suggest more troops dumped into the Baltic States.
Is it make-believe to say Russia is meddling in Ukraine when Crimea is already annexed and at least white lorries are openly going in and out despite Ukraine gov't opposition?
And weird how you and Krake are able to argue that because Crimea belonged to Russian empire on 1783, it always should. Incidentally, the Baltic countries also belonged to Russian empire back then. Isn't it a bit of a mythology to not see the connection?
I must say that it is very noteworthy that everything you say is based on reaction to White House speeches. They are really so far behind the corner as it gets, totally irrelevant. Why not observe the situation where it actually is? Well, I know, Scotland is nowhere near Ukraine and Russia, whereas Obama is breathing on your neck, so of course your perspective is skewed accordingly.
All sorts of scenarios are being conjured up by the West because they cannot control Russia like they try to do elsewhere. As the US of recent times has been unable to have a principled and sensible leader it is either envious of President Putin or annoyed with a country they cannot dominate....Hhhh, yeah....that will be it!
As if Russia has one? Check this out, Ukraine captured Russian troops "on a special mission." Moscow doesn't deny the troops were there. Even your would-be husband Vlad can't deny it. This proves the existence of Russian troops in Ukrainian territory. So with no deniability, Moscow claims those troops were there by mistake :faint: If this didn't have such grave international repercussions for peace and stability, Russia's claims and denials would be a comedy by now.
And weird how you and Krake are able to argue that because Crimea belonged to Russian empire on 1783, it always should. Incidentally, the Baltic countries also belonged to Russian empire back then. Isn't it a bit of a mythology to not see the connection?
I'd say the Baltic states have every reason to be nervous about Russia right now. About Howie's claims that borders should be as they were in the past, by that reasoning Scotland should be independent and Ulster should join the Republic of Ireland. But hypocritically, he'd support neither of those propositions.
and at least white lorries are openly going in and out despite Ukraine gov't opposition?
Those were PR by Putin. He was trying to make it look as if Ukraine was denying aid as he was trying to give it. Given Russia's actions, Ukraine would have been out of its mind to let Russian trucks enter unquestioned and uninspected. Maybe they could have been checked, and the freight unloaded from the Russian trucks and loaded into Ukrainian ones? Even if that solution wouldn't have been as simple as it seems, you still don't let the man that just robbed you back into your house.
About Howie's claims that borders should be as they were in the past, by that reasoning Scotland should be independent and Ulster should join the Republic of Ireland. But hypocritically, he'd support neither of those propositions.
Scotland must be independent and England is really a subprovince of Normandy. Or whatever moment in history happens to be your favourite, be it Anschluss, Treaty of Versailles, colonial era, Roman era, etc.
Or whatever moment in history happens to be your favourite, be it Anschluss, Treaty of Versailles, colonial era, Roman era, etc.
Interesting point. Maybe for Howie's sake, I'll pick the Norman period so the UK no longer exists and therefore Scotland remains independent (or maybe becomes a sub-subprovince of Normandy?) This also means America doesn't exist, no English colonies to form the basis of it. That way Howie can't bitch in his jealousy and resentment of us? The Five Civilized tribes [/ur]would stand a good chance of being recognized independent nations. Perhaps with imported European industrial age technology they can be a par with Europe. Happiness all around :yes: That would actually be an interesting scenario. There likely would have been a large Francophone nation where the middle part of America is now. Maybe I'll write that story after disguising the scenario with a history professor or two at [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unlv] UNLV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Civilized_Tribes) :yes:
But what happens in the 1940's? I started to get concerned that Hitler would have won WWII, but I think the USSR would have beaten him in the end even without America's help. But the peace treaty might have been as favourable. Stalin himself strained for resources and the Soviet economy also in ruins, lets Hitler keep Western Europe in exchange for the East, including Scotland in the peace treaty. Doesn't seem too improbable. This means to live in anything remotely resembling a free country, Howie needs the hated America after all :(
Tripe? Sure. The Normans couldn't have held England forever, so history probably played out how it had to. But it's no worse tripe than every negative thing about Russia being wrong. Eyewitness accounts by Associated Press reporters aren't all lies. Even Putin can't deny that Ukraine captured Russian troops in Ukrainian territory? What's Krake's response? "Where's the proof? (tm) " Moscow's admission and their lame excuse. As far as it somehow being NATO's fault, Obama is not Napoleon nor Hitler. Putin alone is responsible for his actions.
Captured Russian soldiers crossed Ukraine border ‘by accident’ (http://www.euronews.com/2014/08/26/captured-russian-soldiers-crossed-ukraine-border-by-accident/)
Not easy to navigate these days, The System: GLONASS in April, What Went Wrong (http://gpsworld.com/the-system-glonass-in-april-what-went-wrong/)
Captured Russian soldiers crossed Ukraine border ‘by accident’
That article links here (http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140826/192353192/Russian-Military-Servicemen-Detained-by-Ukraine-Accidently-Cross.html).
Note the photo:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fen.ria.ru%2Fimages%2F19235%2F43%2F192354331.jpg&hash=b88864a98e74c3975e3709744845a63a" rel="cached" data-hash="b88864a98e74c3975e3709744845a63a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://en.ria.ru/images/19235/43/192354331.jpg)
The border is reasonably wide, cleared area. How is possible to walk across that and continue for another 20 km without realizing it? How long does it take to walk that far? Three, four hours? If their job was to march along section of the border, it's hard to understand how they would walk for that long in the wrong direction without realizing it.
Your media might parrot what Putin says,...
Even worse, it parrots what Fogh-Rasmussen and the US state department says.
My English is poor but good enough for reading your media. So it's no need to tell me how it is. Balanced articles, at least at some extend, are rare and hard to find.
Those were PR by Putin. He was trying to make it look as if Ukraine was denying aid
Ukraine indeed was denying the aid. It took them a weak to inspect 5 trucks. One might wonder if the Ukrainians were searching for boson higgs particles.
I miss pictures with some Ukrainian aid convoys. And no, I don't mean convoys of tanks. BTW, they are shelling now even churches.
you still don't let the man that just robbed you back into your house.
You are repeating this BS for the second time. Amnesia? (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.msg26243#msg26243)
And weird how you and Krake are able to argue that because Crimea belonged to Russian empire on 1783, it always should.
You probably meant
since 1973.
Whatever reasons Khrushchev had to give away Crimea ("The transfer of the Crimean Oblast to Ukraine has been described as a symbolic gesture, marking the 300th anniversary of Ukraine becoming a part of the Tsardom of Russia") it wasn't for sure meant as a gift for a Russian hostile neighbor.
However this is history now and isn't the main point.
In contrast to Khrushchev's giveaway where Crimeans haven't been asked, the people of Crimea got now the chance for a referendum to express its will.
Nobody was pointing a gun at their head in the ballot stations, nor have they been forced to take part at the referendum.
It's utter hypocrisy and at the same time inhuman to ignore the will of the people living there. It's
their life and it's the future of
their children!
The outcome of the referendum may have caused (or is still causing) you some pain in the stomach but at least Crimeans are pleased and they have good reasons to be so.
It's interesting to watch how some posters here are screaming about 'annexation' but don't give a shit about those 'annexed'.
Note the photo:
Nice border they have there... it's for planting corn? potatoes? A really creative usage for a border but it will be a problem to decide to whom it belongs...
You are repeating this BS for the second time. Amnesia? (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.msg26243#msg26243)
Neither. You can't Howie don't seem to understand why Putin isn't trusted. And that referendum is still bullshit for the reasons discussed
I can remember Sanguinemoon some years back when Americans crossed into Iran and arrested. You are so propaganda brained to the point of daftness. One report in the news said they were part of a convoy - yet another addition to make it more news worthy. Tell us what you think of the 400 Ukrainian soldiers who crossed the border and surrendered inside Russia to their Army? Plus the smaller group a week or two ago.I mentioned this previously but you studiously avoided it or overlooked it. But as the White House press room didn't mention it then that is you lost. Now units of that Ukrainian National Guard which has been pounded by the rebels is moaning at the Kiev government because they are being hounded by the rebels. Just thought you should be informed as the White House propaganda machine will only issue what suits them.
I think you should join the Senate and I can be really sure you and that McCain would get on like a house on fire.
Tell us what you think of the 400 Ukrainian soldiers who crossed the border and surrendered inside Russia to their Army?
Come now, Howie. Even RT says they were there for refuge and not as an invasion. That still leaves us the question of what Russian troops were doing in Ukraine.
The point is you have ignored anything that is negative about the Kiev lot. The 400 wanted OUT of the war so fled. Now the rebels have done some pushing back and the National Guard has had desertions as they feel Kiev is not helping them. The same is applying to the Ukrainian Army where in many units morale has been low. Anyway kindergarten man I NEVER said the 400 were an invasion so do try and concentrate. The Ukrainian President should get hiss act together. In the same day he rabbits about Russia "invading" he then later says there should be joint working between Russian and Ukrainian armies on border control (!).
On a wider front Ukraine has been practicing what is very nearly amounting to a scorched earth policy and don't care damn about all the innocents they are killing as well as people short on food, water, etc. The numbers of them fleeing the Kiev jackboots is in the 6-figures. The Russian Federation ambassador whas right in what he said about America which has one long history of invading countries and leaving mayhem behind by the way. I had expected in the law of averages that the rebellion would have been gone by now but there are problems developing inside the army . One Ukrainian solider was asked how many Russians he had seen. He looked a bit down and signalled with his hand to indicate a nothing. Members of your pals the Right Front who are in the National guard are unhappy the way the war is going and their leadership is suggesting they leave the front and march back to Kiev to take over areas of the government.
Those 400 soldiers plus another couple of dozen were unhappy at their own country people being killed hence deserting. Kiev has a problem.
Fair and balanced news source reporting about the humanitarian help to Ukraine http://www.interfax.ru/world/404911 It's the fourth dispatch to Donetsk and Lugansk. Red Cross is not participating (says right there behind the link). The goods have been compiled with regard to the approaching winter, says the representative of Ministry of Emergency Situations of Russia. Ukrainian officials say they have not received any announcement from Russia about the convoy.
And Russia and ukraine have managed to do something about the fuel supply matter. Considering that Russia already had a deal that seen Ukraine getting a discount and that it was still owed a considerable sum due to Kiev incompetence the EEC is giving a loan. Ukraine is a mess by it's own creation. Russia has saved it from freezing in the winter.
Last night and today at a top-heavy meeting in Minsk, the world leaders seem to have postponed the world war for at least another week. The devil will be in the details, and the details are many:
Ceasefire to begin at 00:01 local time on 15 February
Heavy weapons to be withdrawn, beginning on 16 February and completed in two weeks
All prisoners to be released; amnesty for those involved in fighting
Withdrawal of all foreign troops and weapons from Ukrainian territory. Disarmament of all illegal groups
Ukraine to allow resumption of normal life in rebel areas, by lifting restrictions
Constitutional reform to enable decentralisation for rebel regions by the end of 2015
Ukraine to control border with Russia if conditions met by the end of 2015
I'm not sure the rebels and Ukraine agree even on local time (Kiev has EET, but the rebels may prefer Moscow time), not to mention the rest :)
In completely unrelated news, IMF agrees $17.5bn reform programme for Ukraine (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436656).
In completely unrelated news, IMF agrees $17.5bn reform programme for Ukraine (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436656).
Completely unrelated news are always important... :)
We'll see if Putin plays the game. Expensive poker but cheaper than Greece and many other places. Ukraine worths more, much more.
(supposing that billion is the irritating American billion, meaning a thousand millions, not a real billion - a million of millions)
In completely unrelated news, IMF agrees $17.5bn reform programme for Ukraine (http://www.bbc.com/news/business-31436656).
To be more precise the Ukraine will receive $ 40bn for its reform programme/war. The difference of $ 22,5bn has to be shouldered by Europe.
The IMF is on board now for dishing out billions and it will be interesting to see where that goes in practice due to the Kiev corruption. Wages are now low and tightness on pensions, welfare, heating, cost of food and living along with just about everything else. I doubt too whether the Ukrainian Army has any deep confidence either. The country is in a ramshackle state by it's own hands and is doing a Greece and look how that place dealt with debts. Even when Russia was giving them discounted power others didn't get they were moaning.One news report was curious as to why Kiev was not helping all this innocent civilians being wounded and killed,stopping doctor and nurses pay, etc. Even water and power being cut to the uninvolved civilians. However they cannot even look after themselves.
My Ukrainian friend has informed me the place was never one country with so many different groups and traditions. Kiev did the Kiev and totally ignored those in the East then when the East protested the army rumbled. out. This could all have been avoided if Kiev hadn't been so stupid in deleting the Russian language from a shared State matter (especially with so many speaking it) or ignoring it's tradtions. The western part of the country were only out for themselves and looking to the West for handouts due to their own incompetence and corruption.
@krake
You like to debunk Western media reporting on Ukraine. Have your Russian friends spoken about this detail too?
Minsk Agreement 2.0. Moscow de facto recognized that Russian Troops are fighting against Ukraine (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=569_1424163507)
The Minsk agreement specify some weaponry that are to be withdrawn. Among them is something called Tornado-S.
MLRS Tornado-S (9A52-4 Tornado) is Russia's newest universal multiple rocket launcher.... Currently the sole operator is Russian Ground Forces.
Meaning, the weaponry cited in Minsk agreement belongs to Russian army. The fact that Minsk agreement cites it means that it is used by fighters in Ukraine. Taken literally, the fighters in Ukraine are Russian soldiers.
The same detail was also mentioned by Finnish security experts on Friday. (http://yle.fi/uutiset/upin_tutkijat_minskin_sopimukseen_pujahtanut_virhe_todistaa_venajan_osallistumisen_ukrainan_konfliktiin/7803163)
No they are not Russian soldiers. What I have said is that there will be Russian ex-military volunteering. I watched Frenchmen being interviewed who are fighting for the rebels. That there is a mass invasion by the Russian Army is a load of cobblers and follows the old stock adage of repeating the same thing long enough to become standard.
What about the cluster bombs used by the Ukrainian Army, eh?? Most sensible countries have banned those terrible types of bombs so why no condemnation? Or the films a while back of what looked awfully like phosphorous bombing? Any nation that does not acept the US's idea of democracy (snigger) or the West's way of doing things can expect to be hounded and lied about. Didn't we have a US fleet hovering about near China but that doesn't count? Talk about odd mindsets.
Although i for a long time have been of the view that Ukraine should be Federal because of the different bakcgrounds and groups living there i think it almost deserves losing the two eastern provinces. The "revolution" in Kiev was NOT universal and indeed the folk in the east not even consulted. Then they had their language removed as an official State one and thought the people there would just accept their less than inclusive overthrow of a legitimate government. Russia has a right to be concerned the way the millions of Russian speakers and traditionals were treated after all as i have well said it is okay for America to have hundreds of bases everywhere to "guard it's interests." What that means is the corporate string pullers.
So it was okay for the West Ukrainian lot to have a one-sided "revolution" then treat the East like rubbish? Russia has NEVER demanded the 2 regional East places at any time but they are sure as Hell right to be concerned the way people there were treated. Ukraine has been and is a damn mess and continue being so. The warfare has been fanatically nationalist and the East treated like rubbish. Kiev created this civil war and deserve to lose it. To give Kiev all that money in loans is a big, big mistake in such a corrupt place. It is too divided a country and unfortunately due to the head bangers in Kiev they will lose another bit and deserve too. That we in the West slavishly follow any lie that comes out of Kiev is a disgrace, immoral and not principled.
What I have said is that there will be Russian ex-military volunteering.
In tanks that are only deployed by the Russian military? See the other thread for details. At this point, it's difficult to deny Russian troops and weapons in the conflict.
Ukraine has been and is a damn mess and continue being so.
Of course it is, as long as Russia continues its destablisation of the country. Putin talks peace, but continues egging on the conflict by supplying equipment and most likely personnel to the seperatists. Do this to any country in the world and watch the economy and social order collapse and radical nationalist to outright neo-nazi forces rise.
It isn't Russia that is destabilising Ukraine it is that country itself!
They had street battles and overthrew a legitimate government. Not the best government but properly elected. Tell me when Kiev took in the East in what it was going to do or did? You cannot. Kiev supports the Right Sector so as you are so full of the wonderful Kiev regime that means you too support the Nazis of that Right mob. The west of Ukraine has always leaned west including WW2 when it supprted the Nazis and had it's own SS and celebrate that annually (!). The East was always leaning Russian hence the large numbers of speakers of that tongue. That your champion buffoon, McCain went out to support a dodgy and immoral lot shows how you lot are brain drilled. Anything that McCain is into is dodgy and stupid. Because of deep cultural and indeed racial distinctions (there is in fact no national Ukraine it is made up of old tribal histories).
Instead of trying to bridge things you are so deep routed into the usual imperialistic mode you people have been brought up with you cannot see that. Befroe that "Revolution" because of the numbers of Russian speakers that language was a shared national matter which the new regime threw out the damn window. On top of that in the East with so many Russian speakers that is where the heavy industry is based so naturally they got miffed there along with no consultation in the coup so what do you think the East is going to do just be treated as puppets?
Ot is nothing to do with NATO nor the EU but being led by the great pretender country a negative direction has been taken in a country that has been a mess for years and still is. Now your mindsets have been lulled into threats to the Baltic States! Now that is funny as the other week the foreign minister of Latvia (That is a Baltic State dear Yank) has come out and said directly the opposite. Indeed he made it plain that his country does NOT see Russia as a threat at all so answer that obne sonny.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fcs622517.vk.me%2Fv622517122%2F7981%2F_A9bon5F74E.jpg&hash=b146eacd10c6b13dc0163fe04ffe75d9" rel="cached" data-hash="b146eacd10c6b13dc0163fe04ffe75d9" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://cs622517.vk.me/v622517122/7981/_A9bon5F74E.jpg)
Attention! In connection with the unstable geopolitical situation, we don't have Americano coffee. Ask for Crimean coffee.
:D
People from Ukraine that have migrated to here, rebuilt their lives and returned to Ukraine are returning again.
If that matters for anyone of you.
Ukraine is completely to blame for what happened in their own country. They had a history of supporting the Nzis in the West of the country hence their annual commemorations of their war time lader and the Ukrainians who fought in the SS. Kiev when it started that shambles in their city did not care a damn for the whole country because they totally ignored the 2 eastern provinces. They were never spoken to asked if they wanted involved in the coup and became a target foe the new regime. All the more stunning as so much of the industry is in the east.Crimea is back where it always wanted to be and the civil war did not need to happen if Kiev had used some more sense rather than militancy.
Crimea and the eastern conclave are gone for good and will never be back and the country could have remained as one but for the bias and stupidity of Kiev.
Крымский федеральный округ ликвидирован указом президента (http://www.newsru.com/russia/28jul2016/crimea.html)
When Crimea was first annexed, Putin created "Crimean federal okrug", a region comprising just Crimea. Federal okrugs themselves are Putin's invention when the governors of the federal subjects (the administrative entities that make up Russian Federation) had begun behaving too independently (under Yeltsin) and there was no clear idea what Russian Federation was supposed to be. So Putin created federal okrugs which group together federal subjects whose governors became answerable to certain agents of the federal okrugs so there would be some accountability. That's Russian idea of federation.
Where was I? Ah, right, Crimea was its own federal okrug at first, but this federal okrug is dropped as of today. Instead, Crimea now belongs to Southern federal okrug along with places like Krasnodar, Rostov-na-Donu and Astrakhan. A small sign that Crimea's status is being administratively normalised, in other words.
And this one is related. I believe it Google translates well enough.
Google вернет российские названия на карту Крыма после предупреждения Минкомсвязи о возможных сложностях с ведением бизнеса в РФ (http://www.newsru.com/russia/28jul2016/google.html)
And it is now where the vast majority of Crimean people want to be.
Ukraine has managed to block Russia's participation in Eurovision this year
Russian broadcaster Channel One will not broadcast the Eurovision Song Contest next month because the country's singer has been barred from host country Ukraine.
Russia's decision removes any chance of it competing this year, the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) said.
Ukraine is refusing to allow Julia Samoilova to perform at Eurovision because she has visited Crimea, the peninsula seized by Russia in 2014.
The EBU has condemned the ban.
It says Ukraine is undermining the non-political nature of the contest.
The BBC is using the word "seized" for Crimeans choosing per referendum to leave the Ukraine and be part of the Russian Federation. :)
It was seized before the referendum. Duh.
It was seized before the referendum. Duh.
For sure. :) After the referendum it got annexed. :lol:
Utter duff there from you ersi and a propagandist system woudl have delights in your mindset. May I again laddie remind you that (groanj) Ukraine had Crimea dumped into it decades ago by the dictatorial USSR and not something the inhabitants would have been happy about and why it is so Russia leaning down there. They had a referendum as you have been told but oh that doesn't count because the people wanted back where they felt happier - namely Russia. If a referendum is something in the mindset of America led West threat is somehow fine but outside of that automatically illegal. The same West was so keen on the Kosovo referendum and really supporting the Kosovo Liberation Army funded by drug money.
May I also do another reminder that Ukraine was defrauding Russia out of oodles of money for power supplies is as corrupt as hell, financially a mess and politically a shambles all of which the West does an ignoring of. The people in Crimea were right to have a vote and get out of a hell hole. So a referendum is somehow un-principled but a country that is run as a total shambles is??
May I remind you that invasion preceded the referendum. It was referendum at gunpoint. Russia does those often enough so that I am used to them. You evidently are not.
Crimea didn't always belong to Russia. Crimea was conquered from Crimean Tatars some 230 years ago. You may want to check up how things have been going for them after the annexation.
May I remind you that invasion preceded the referendum.
A peaceful 'invasion' that nobody noticed and without firing a single shot.
Imagine George W. Bush would have mastered such an invasion of Iraq. Wonder if you can?
It was referendum at gunpoint.
Parroting transatlantic propaganda narratives won't change the facts. :)
Armed patrols (which btw were welcomed by Crimeans) only made sure that the referendum takes its cource in a peaceful manner.
Western monitors have been invited. No official delegations were sent because it was evident how Crimeans will vote and that outcome didn't fit Western agenda.
Inofficial monitors from several countries confirmed the fairness of the referendum.
Crimeans enjoying for being 'invaded' and 'annexed'
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.amz.mshcdn.com%2Fddm6TSzRtLp1o-k4GUxRCKPxxMg%3D%2Ffit-in%2F1440x1000%2Fhttp%253A%252F%252Fmashable.com%252Fwp-content%252Fgallery%252Fvoting-in-crimea%252Fcrimea-referendum-celebration-2.jpg&hash=bb25ddd83c6c30d9df9e86b5e23cdcaf" rel="cached" data-hash="bb25ddd83c6c30d9df9e86b5e23cdcaf" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.amz.mshcdn.com/ddm6TSzRtLp1o-k4GUxRCKPxxMg=/fit-in/1440x1000/http%3A%2F%2Fmashable.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgallery%2Fvoting-in-crimea%2Fcrimea-referendum-celebration-2.jpg)
May I remind you that invasion preceded the referendum.
A peaceful 'invasion' that nobody noticed and without firing a single shot.
You neglect the presence of the Russian naval base in Crimea, the biggest military base that Russia has. And you of course didn't notice at all the war that ensued.
It was referendum at gunpoint.
Parroting transatlantic propaganda narratives won't change the facts. :)
Facts such as?
Armed patrols (which btw were welcomed by Crimeans) only made sure that the referendum takes its cource in a peaceful manner.
Armed patrols that held the Crimean parliament hostage for the entire time of the transition. If everything was peaceful, why would there be armed patrols? And why weren't they Ukrainian patrols, if there was no invasion?
Western monitors have been invited. No official delegations were sent because it was evident how Crimeans will vote and that outcome didn't fit Western agenda. Inofficial monitors from several countries confirmed the fairness of the referendum.
In the context of an invasion, you send official monitors to oversee a referendum only if you think the invasion is okay. That's ordinary diplomacy.
Crimeans enjoying for being 'invaded' and 'annexed'
(https://img.rt.com/files/news/23/6b/e0/00/crimea-4.jpg)
This is just prior to the referendum. Would this poster be possible in the country of Ukraine without any Russian invasion?
You neglect the presence of the Russian naval base in Crimea, the biggest military base that Russia has.
So by invasion you mean troops which don't have to invade anything since they are already there for many years. :)
It was referendum at gunpoint.
Parroting transatlantic propaganda narratives won't change the facts. :)
Facts such as?
People did vote as they wished to. Nobody was threatened in any way.
Armed patrols (which btw were welcomed by Crimeans) only made sure that the referendum takes its cource in a peaceful manner.
Armed patrols that held the Crimean parliament hostage for the entire time of the transition.
I'm not aware of Ukrainian parliamentarians being kept hostage by military forces during the whole transition.
Be so kind and give some sources (preferable in English since I don't speak Russian).
If everything was peaceful, why would there be armed patrols? And why weren't they Ukrainian patrols, if there was no invasion?
Are you kidding me? The neo-nazi pack in Kiev wouldn't had allowed a referendum to begin with.
Instead of a peaceful referendum we would have witnessed a carnage in Crimea too.
In the context of an invasion, you send official monitors to oversee a referendum only if you think the invasion is okay. That's ordinary diplomacy.
I see. Very instructive from your part teaching ordinary diplomacy.
As a conclusion, there are illegal 'invasions' like that of Crimea and invasions like that of Iraq which are okay.
Be so kind and give some sources (preferable in English since I don't speak Russian).
Well, then you're out of luck and at the mercy of Wikipedia. The most relevant bit on the (current) page is this,
On 27 February, Russian special forces [105] seized the building of the Supreme Council of Crimea and the building of the Council of Ministers in Simferopol.[106][107] Russian flags were raised over these buildings,[108] and barricades were erected outside them.[109] Whilst the "little green men" were occupying the Crimean parliament building, the parliament held an emergency session.[110][111] It voted to terminate the Crimean government, and replace Prime Minister Anatolii Mohyliov with Sergey Aksyonov.[112] Aksyonov belonged to the Russian Unity party, which received 4% of the vote in the last election.[111] According to the Constitution of Ukraine, the Prime Minister of Crimea is appointed by the Supreme Council of Crimea in consultation with the President of Ukraine.[113][114] Both Aksyonov and speaker Vladimir Konstantinov stated that they viewed Viktor Yanukovych as the de jure president of Ukraine, through whom they were able to ask Russia for assistance.[115]
The parliament also voted to hold a referendum on greater autonomy on 25 May. The troops had cut all of the building's communications, and took MPs' phones as they entered.[110][111] No independent journalists were allowed inside the building while the votes were taking place.[111] Some MPs said they were being threatened and that votes were cast for them and other MPs, even though they were not in the chamber.[111]
[...]
On 27 February, following the takeover of its building by Russian special forces, the Supreme Council of Crimea voted to hold a referendum on 25 May, with the initial question as to whether Crimea should upgrade its autonomy within Ukraine.[151] The referendum date was later moved from 25 May to 30 March.[152]
[...]
On 6 March, the Supreme Council moved the referendum date to 16 March and changed its scope to ask a new question: whether Crimea should accede to Russia or restore the 1992 constitution within Ukraine, which the Ukrainian government had previously invalidated. This referendum, unlike one announced earlier, contained no option to maintain the status quo of governance under the 1998 constitution.[157] [the last source is VOA, so better see http://www.interfax.ru/world/363143 ]
About half of the primary sources there are in English, so you will of course dismiss them as Western propaganda. I followed these events as they occurred via Russian and Finnish media. I call it referendum at gunpoint because I know it was.
I'll take you more seriously on Russian affairs as soon as you learn Russian. Here http://www.interfax.ru/story/92
Be so kind and give some sources (preferable in English since I don't speak Russian).
Well, then you're out of luck and at the mercy of Wikipedia. The most relevant bit on the (current) page is ...
Thanks for confirming that no parlamentarian was held hostage at all - not before, during or after the transition. :)
The sources are now at your fingertips, whenever you decide to wisen up. Take your time.
The idea of an invasion prior to the referendum is the typical Us-led utter bunkum mentality. If not done by the yanks then it is totally bad! It is an utter hypocrisy. The hard fact that the place was shoved by the Soviet union a dictatorship where the people did not want to be just doesn't count in the restricted propaganda brained ersi mentality! The vast majority on the peninsula had not choice under that dictatorship but had the opportunity to get back to where they WANTED to be.
At the time of the upheaval in th Ukraine capital the duly elected government was overthrown and although i would say it was not a perfect government at all it had been put in by the voters. What replaces it was a hopeless bunch of no-gooders. The new regime includes and still does actual Nazi people (remember that during WW2 there were large numbers of Ukrainians in the SS and they still admire them much. But that is fine if it pleases DC. Yet the country is as corrupt as hell, inefficient, deep in debt and poverty struck but none of that counts in the ersi mentality. There was no vast army marching into the south to take over Crimea and is he trying to tell me that Crimeans did not want to go back into today's Russia? When you see how bad Ukraine is run the people of Crimea have a better chance in the Russian Federation and a place they were forced out of a long time ago on those USSR times.
Glaskow, Howie, that's where you should spend your "declining" years… :) (You'll not likely be admitted to Russia itself. You're too small a fish!)
Again I'll mention something: Red and yellow make Orange.
Heavens. An ex-colonist who knows red and yellow make orange. Now who would have believed that possible. That eejit Senator McCain went to Ukraine to show his support for a country as corrupt, messed up and supported by neo-Nazis and as i have previously pointed out that during the 2nd World War the SS did well recruiting into it's ranks and in modern times still have conventions and mark their leaders.
One could almost imagine that you yourself fought in WW II… Nah! When you got your first bloody nose, you gave up fighting; and when you discovered Stalinism you found your "safety in numbers" bravery. Admit it, RJ, you're still awaiting a Socialist Paradise…
Red and yellow. You're still an Orangeman, aren't you? :)
BTW: About our 2 million in prison… Who was it that "discovered" a whole new continent, and turned it into a penal colony? :( (One of the problems, I suppose, with living on a wee island: What to do with your miscreants? :) )
Who was it that "discovered" a whole new continent, and turned it into a penal colony? :(
Indeed, that was a very bad idea. At least we can agree on this. :)
Body-swerving the obvious things you cannot cope with Oakdale. We are takling about modern and very wide times and yet and yet the country that boasts so much in 2017 has over 2 million in jails and tens of millions in poverty? Your other body-swerve and similar poor attempt is to equate Orangeism with Socialism which shows a degree of immature ignorance dear man. Orangemen are Protestant and staunch Monarchists. Dear, oh dear. You always have to fall back on kindergarten stuff when the obvious truth results in the nonsense you come up with. You are consistent but being kindergarten is a laugh.
Who was it that "discovered" a whole new continent, and turned it into a penal colony? :(
Indeed, that was a very bad idea. At least we can agree on this. :)
The bad idea was to release the penal colony.
One can't ever expect good ideas from protestants.
Anyway Ukraine is so much more important than the Trump playground.
One can't ever expect good ideas from protestants.
…are you happy with your new Pope?!
When you see how corrupt the Vatican lot are Oakdale I do enjoy Belfrager's humour!
Ukraine is a basket-case and brought on by themselves without any help.
...are you happy with your new Pope?!
Nope, you are. :)
My Pope is Benedict XVI until he dies. Then, I'll have a new Pope.
Francis is a bright future for spreading the defense for the human dignity, something your country lacks so much.
Nope, you are. :)
My Pope is Benedict XVI until he dies. Then, I'll have a new Pope.
Francis is a bright future for spreading the defense for the human dignity, something your country lacks so much.
So very wrong,
Bel! I'm -despite being a (very)
lapsed Catholic- quite disappointed with Pope Francis: He's easily led by those who claim secular authority.
Benedict is during my lifetime the Pope who most impressed me. Clear exegesis and unwavering commitment to eternal truths.
Is it the former or the latter that Francis lacks?
So, the U.S. lacks human dignity? I'll admit, much that the Democrats have wreaked has diminished human dignity here. But we're still far behind Europe in the race to perdition. :)
But we're still far behind Europe in the race to perdition. :)
You should do an European tour, kind of Bufallo Bill and his Circus, people would rest astonished with the things you say... :)
They might patiently wait until he is sober before noting much.
Who seeks to emigrate here? And who seeks to emigrate there?
The Eurovision contest song will be next saturday in Kiev, Ukraine.
Europeans knows about the bullshit I'm talking about.
A country in war holds sissies singing in contest.
This is worst than the Titanic.
Gave up on that event years ago as it had become a load of glorified rubbish.
When they say that Europe, or for that matter Portugal, has no culture, they haven't considered the Eurovision Song Contest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehH0_UXtQlY
Goodbye to Israel (http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/could-this-be-israels-last-ever-eurovision-performance-6630829/) though. Maybe hello China?
When they say that Europe, or for that matter Portugal, has no culture, they haven't considered the Eurovision Song Contest.
More likely is that when they say that Europe has no culture it was
only the Eurovision Song Contest, they have considered. ;)
Goodbye to Israel (http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/11/could-this-be-israels-last-ever-eurovision-performance-6630829/) though.
Maybe hello China?
Why not China, India and Pakistan all together?
It wouldn't improve that trash named "Eurovision Song Contest" but at least it might improve viewing figures. :lol:
Why is a ME country in the thing?
that trash named "Eurovision Song Contest
That trash named "Eurovision Song Contest" has classifyied Germany in last place with zero points.
Fiftie or more countries in first of Germany, Portugal in first.
It happens. It's a message.
No doubt why the Reich complains so much...
Still a weird status of a Middle east country in the song thingy.
That trash named "Eurovision Song Contest" has classifyied Germany in last place with zero points.
Fiftie or more countries in first of Germany, Portugal in first.
"Trash" is an understatement. There is a YouTube link provided above, so everyone can convince himself. ;)
BTW, Germany got 6 magic points. That's more than Spain got. The jury was very kind with the "Reich".
As for the winner, congratulations!
It's nice to see that there are spheres where Portugal and the Ukraine (last year's winner) can outperform the competition. :)
BTW, next year the trash is moving to Portugal. Don't miss to book your ticket. :D
There have been several voting rule changes during the decades, and since the last one last year it is hard to get 0 point. Spain made a good attempt, not even Portugal bothered to give them anything. 36 songs have gotten 0 points through ESC history (http://www.esc-history.com/zero.asp), half of those in the years 1962-1966.
Israel?
After four years of war, Poroshenko actually declared state of war now that a suitable incident with boat shooting provided a reason. And he Russian adult men aged 16-60 should not enter Ukraine https://www.euronews.com/2018/11/30/ukraine-bans-entry-to-russian-adult-men-poroshenko
aged 16-60
Ah, so Putin can enter. :)
Rubbish Frenzie.
Russia Ukraine incident: Duma 'to honour ship seizure troops'
The speaker of Russia's lower house of parliament plans to give state awards to the border guards who fired on and seized three Ukrainian vessels and 24 sailors a week ago, Russian media say.
Mainly posting this for the neat map of the incident
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/1020B/production/_104495066_ukraine_crimea_russia_v3_640-nc.png)
Rubbish Frenzie.
2018 – 1952 = 66 by my count :cheers:
Mainly posting this for the neat map of the incident
Huh, I think I spotted the same map in Der Spiegel, but I admit to only glancing at the whole thing.
Independence decree presented to Ukrainian Orthodox bishop
Bartholomew I, considered first among equals in Orthodox patriarchy, announced the Orthodox Church of Ukraine has become the 15th independent Orthodox church. He argued Ukrainians “desired ecclesiastical independence” for centuries and never accepted that they were part of the Russian church.
[...]
Following Bartholomew I’s October decision for independence, the Russian church severed ties with Istanbul, the center of the Orthodox world.
“Instead of healing the schism, instead of uniting Orthodoxy, we got an even greater schism that exists solely for political reasons,” Archbishop Kliment, a spokesman for the Russia-affiliated church in Ukraine, said Sunday.
Metropolitan Epiphanius I, who was elected last month by Ukrainian Orthodox leaders to head the new church, will take the decree to Kiev, where it will be displayed Monday at the Sophia cathedral complex in downtown Kiev.
NotPetya, an episode in the Crimea war.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KODpP29AHD4[/video]
Malaysia Airlines Flight 17: Former Russian spy takes ‘moral responsibility’ for downing of planeA former colonel in Russia's FSB security service says he takes "moral responsibility" for the 2014 downing of Malaysia Airlines flight 17, but insists that his men did not down the passenger jet.
Igor Girkin was leading Russia-backed separatist forces in eastern Ukraine when the passenger plane was shot down and crashed in the region on July 17, 2014, killing all 298 people on board.
Girkin and three others have been charged in absentia by the International Court of Justice in The Hague.
In my opinion it is criminal that EU refrained from going in to investigate when the airplane was downed. It could have put an end to the whole separatist war thing for once.
The "separatist war" would not have ceased that easily at all. Ukraine had a terrible indictment on the Ukrainians who had very directly supported the SS in World war 2 . They also took up activity in that lot and even in modern times have had events to mark leaders lost supporting the SS, etc. Many in the east of the country were well aware of wartime going ons and brought about the distancing of those "rebel provinces." Strong Russian backgrounds existed in the south hence the plebiscite and connecting to the Russian Federation. Many of those violent politicians who marched in the capital were hardly democratic nor considerate for the east or south. Indeed they had a neo-Nazi style that increased issues in the 2 provinces I mention.
Zelensky defused a hostage crisis by complying with the terrorist's demand
Gunman releases passengers unharmed following leader Volodymyr Zelensky’s video message urging Ukrainians to watch animal rights documentary
Another fine performance by Joaquin Phoenix.
A comedian as President is probably quite appropriate for such a country as that. :faint:
Lukashenko calls the war in Ukraine a war (a big deal, since according to Putin there is only a "special operation") and wants a seat in negotiating ceasefire https://www.hallandsposten.se/nyheter/v%C3%A4rlden/lukasjenko-kallar-kriget-ett-krig-1.69629223
I think this only gets Lukashenko further marginalised. He should be careful, if he does not want to suddenly vanish from public view.
By the way, our older exchanges are an interesting read https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=194.msg25355#msg25355
Moscow sank (https://tass.ru/obschestvo/14388407) but the crew is safe. Without their flagship, Russia's Black Sea fleet does not really need to be in Sevastopol. They can move to the nearby backyard of Putin's palace.
Dave Bowman had a serious (if rambling) take on the sinking...
And I agree, the previous discussion does indeed make good reading! Thanks for the link.
Le Pen vows to keep Russia close to prevent an alliance with China
French far-right presidential candidate Marine Le Pen said today that, if she were president, she would engage with Russia after the war in Ukraine to ensure Moscow doesn’t create an alliance with Beijing.
Very clever. About as clever as John Mearsheimer (a lecture just after Crimea).
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4[/video]
John Mearsheimer, too, lists all the benefits of being friends with Russia and, by implication, he suggests that Ukraine should accede to some finlandised role. By the end of his lecture, he clarifies that such arrangement is necessary because the real threat is China and it's better to smash China with Russia on "our" side.
However, I am cleverer. By now it should be clear that by the force of Russia's own internal character, namely by virtue of it being *Putin's Russia*, which is the same as Ivan the Terrible's and Catherine the Great's Russia, there can never be any alliance between West and Russia, certainly not on West's terms.
West cannot play the fool as if being potential friends with both Ukraine and Russia at the same time. For Ivan the Terrible, there cannot be any Ukraine. For Catherine the Great, there cannot be any Poland either. For Putin, there cannot be a finlandised Ukraine. There can be either a belarussified Ukraine or no Ukraine.
So, when we accept that Russia is the way it is and this will not change, the West has the following options:
A. Preserve Russia (and sacrifice Ukraine)
B. Preserve Ukraine (and crush Russia)
Whoever thinks that they can negotiate with Putin to have an independent Ukraine at Russia's border is deluded.
There is a good opportunity for B, because right now Russia is completely alone, bogged down in Ukraine and helpless (even Kazakhstan declined military support to Russia). But I think that the West, being led by corruptible puppets, will eventually lean towards A.
Both morally and geopolitically, B would be the correct thing to do. Save Ukraine. Let Russia collapse and fall apart. Crush Russia and start picking it up piece by piece. This would also send the signal to China: Don't touch Taiwan. And China would think twice, because see what happened to Russia when Russia tried to take Ukraine. Anyway, China is not even very eager to take Taiwan. China has never, as in never ever, made any expeditions outside own borders. Between China and Russia, the aggressor to neighbours has always been Russia, starting with Tiraspol. Now is the opportunity to smash all the little miniwar zones that Russia has been artificially fomenting all these decades. Those who think that China is the "real threat" have little clue what a threat looks like.
However, after this first wave of solidarity wanes, the West will more likely start working towards A, like e.g. Macron has tirelessly been doing. This due to FUD of what sort of entities might emerge from a shattered Russia. And also for commercial reasons, since between Ukraine and Russia, Russia is the bigger market - and an even bigger market after Ukraine is fed to Russia. Thus China will receive the signal: Western "values" are - as the more perceptible already noticed - just hot air, the West is ultimately led by market interests, and Taiwan (and more) is available for the right price. And this way the West will end up with two real threats.
[Le Pen's] National Rally party — formerly the National Front — is also strongly linked to Russia. Between 2014 and 2015, the National Front received €11 million of Russian financing, according to French investigative outlet Mediapart.
No comment.
The desirable long-term (now very long term) outcome for the relationship with Russia is a friendly one. There is no reason why that shouldn't happen eventually. It would be beneficial for Russia, and it would be beneficial for Europe.
There are factors in Russia that favours a destructive rather than constructive role, but these are not permanent. Before Russia had this role of being irretrievably bad, Germany did. And before Germany France. That said, while that should be the long-term outcome, that is not the state of Russia we have today.
While I certainly don't agree with Mearsheimer, Finlandization in itself can often be the best available option. Your country wouldn't have full sovereignty, as the neighbour gorilla would limit the scope of your foreign policy. However that is a fairly modest price to pay, compared with the alternatives: mostly vassal state or being a forward base of enemy-gorilla-of-neighbourhood-gorilla. Both parties would have to know the constraints. The finlandized country must know how not to upset the gorilla, and invest enough in defence not to make an attack worthwhile. The gorilla must know his limits as well. Finlandization can be a cheap way to use your power for political gain, but too much interference and the finlandized country would look for other alternatives.
Finlandization worked fine for Finland during the Cold War. Of course it was never the preferred alternative, but Finland could do about as well as neutral Sweden or NATO Norway. Could finlandization been a path for Ukraine. Possibly, but not with Putin. It is pretty much the state of Kazakhstan.
The desirable long-term (now very long term) outcome for the relationship with Russia is a friendly one. There is no reason why that shouldn't happen eventually. It would be beneficial for Russia, and it would be beneficial for Europe.
What if Russia has a completely incompatible idea about "beneficial"? And how long term is long term according to you? I say it is as long into the future as Russia's history hitherto, i.e. basically forever. Russia will never change to something that can partner with the West.
You may think that I am going overboard when I attribute personality traits to countries and nations. I understand that it is not fashionable or politically correct these days, it can be perceived racist and xenophobic and whatever. However, as long as it pragmatically works to provide substantial insights, there is no reason to give up the thinking that countries and nations have a more or less permanent character like personalities do.
The character of Russia has been the same all along from the beginnings of Muscovite Russia: Centralising and centralised, expansive colonial. Russia views certain lands as "ours" and will never back down from trying to acquire them. For Ivan the Terrible, the lands include everything from Arkhangelsk to Constantinople (Moscow being the Third Rome, superseding the Second Rome). For Catherine the Great, the lands also include everything from Poland to Alaska (or California, why not).
Putin is explicitly after everything ex-USSR, but silently his ambitions involve everything and everyone anti-West/USA and non-aligned. Luckily Putin is not going to get his wishes because he does not have as good advisors and military/diplomatic strategists around him as Catherine and Ivan had. His entourage is just lackeys enjoying some loot and spoils. To his misfortune, there's not a single statesman.
The moment for Putin to get the entire Ukraine was 2014, when there was no government in Ukraine and the West was stunned to incapacity. Putin got scared due to the Malaysian airplane incident, which prompted the West to threaten to step in, even though they eventually did not. Over the following years, Crimea and the Donbass "republics" started to create bad blood between Ukraine and Russia and they provided Ukraine with a good training ground for the inevitable upcoming hot conflict, the war which is at hand now.
Russia has already lost this war. The logic of the events per se dictates that Russia must be now over and out, which is good for every neighbouring country, and there would be some potential to create a new country with a different character that perhaps could partner with the West. But this is not what the West wants. The West does not give a rat's ass about what's best for Russia's neighbours. Probably the number one concern of the West is nukes. Nuke cowardice dictates that Putin must be able to preserve some dignity (i.e. the already occupied parts of Ukraine) and Russia as it currently is must be held on artificial respiration. The second concern of the West is to keep laundromats going, despite all the consequent security problems (spy activity, poisonings with polonium and novichok, cyberattacks and fake news, oligarchs screwing up the real estate market in London and luxury resorts etc.). Other concerns, such as integrity and safety of Russia's neighbours, are far down on the list.
Russia's character is not only embodied by Putin. The conflict zones in Tiraspol and Abkhazia emerged under Yeltsin. Also the first Chechen war was waged during Yeltsin. Putin's profile took shape in the second Chechen war and has remained unchanged ever since, which is unsurprising because the profile is fully in line with the character of Russia as a country. Had it been any different, Putin would have been replaced with someone else who'd fit the character. The point is that this behaviour has been Russia's character all along, throughout USSR, throughout Czarist Russia. It's not too different from the old Muscovia with its history of absorbing neighbouring principalities, centralising the power to the Czar of "all Russias" and its doctrine of Third Rome.
If you really want a partner for the Western Europe, you should be ready to erase this Russia and let something else take its place. Otherwise you are only going to get what you already have - a partner in the crime of laundering Russia's natural resources. And this brings me to the character of the Western European countries, but I'm not going to elaborate on that today.
Where does China stand in the grand scheme of things? China is observing and learning from the relations of Russia and the West. Other than that, China does not worry about Russia at all. China would let Russia peacefully collapse and probably not even pick up any spoils, except that at least Mongolia and Kazakhstan would need to orient (i.e. get finlandised) towards China. Be there Russia or no Russia, China has absolutely its own independent relations with the West, i.e. the lessons that China draws from Russia-West relations are primarily lessons about the character of the West, not about Russia. Russia's character is easy-peasy to understand, there's really nothing to learn or study. Only the wilfully blind and incorrigibly corrupt do not see it.
Russia has already lost this war. The logic of the events per se dictates that Russia must be now over and out, which is good for every neighbouring country, and there would be some potential to create a new country with a different character that perhaps could partner with the West.
Is that in any way a
realistic expectation?
Your analysis is convincing and compelling. And -I hope- correct, especially regarding the outcome of this "current conflict"...
If you really want a partner for the Western Europe, you should be ready to erase this Russia and let something else take its place. Otherwise you are only going to get what you already have - a partner in the crime of laundering Russia's natural resources. And this brings me to the character of the Western European countries
Who, exactly, should be ready?
but I'm not going to elaborate on that today.
I await your continuation: You've hit your stride, as a
commentator! Please, when you find time and energy, continue.
If you really want a partner for the Western Europe, you should be ready to erase this Russia and let something else take its place. Otherwise you are only going to get what you already have - a partner in the crime of laundering Russia's natural resources. And this brings me to the character of the Western European countries
Who, exactly, should be ready?
When we are talking about erasing Russia, then everybody should be ready. And everybody should be determined. There is no room for detractors and cowards and traitors. Which means it is not going to happen. There's way too much Putin-enabling going on in Nato and the EU.
Here too, I'm afraid... Good morning to you; and good night, to me... :)
You may think that I am going overboard when I attribute personality traits to countries and nations. I understand that it is not fashionable or politically correct these days, it can be perceived racist and xenophobic and whatever. However, as long as it pragmatically works to provide substantial insights, there is no reason to give up the thinking that countries and nations have a more or less permanent character like personalities do.
The character of Russia has been the same all along from the beginnings of Muscovite Russia: Centralising and centralised, expansive colonial. Russia views certain lands as "ours" and will never back down from trying to acquire them. For Ivan the Terrible, the lands include everything from Arkhangelsk to Constantinople (Moscow being the Third Rome, superseding the Second Rome). For Catherine the Great, the lands also include everything from Poland to Alaska (or California, why not).
No, historicism has a dismal track record, except for being useful in war propaganda. So in WWI the Germans were "Huns", a remarkably unhistorical historicism, but fidelity or clarity has never been the goal, but to get an idea across. There is an echo in the Muscovite invaders being described as Mongolians by the Ukrainians. That has slightly more truth to it, but on the whole about as accurate as the German Huns.
There are many threads, ideas and groups that make up a nation. Putting it down to Putin is obviously a gross oversimplification, though in this case the responsibility for the invasion is down to one man, it was teamwork that led up to it. Putin had reason to believe that his actions would be popular, and they probably would have if they were successful. Success has turned out to be wildly more popular than failure, not only in Russia, but in every other country, in the past as in the present.
Russia is at the end of an empire. This is a period where empires often did stupid things because the leaders' upbringing and mindset is at odds not just with the current situation, but even more so with future developments. It will be up to a new generation to reassess.
No, historicism has a dismal track record, except for being useful in war propaganda.
There's a right way to do historicism, and also the wrong way. Your way, which is the dismissal of historicism, is wrong.
War propaganda is not even wrong. War propaganda is deliberately deceptive. For internal purposes, the point of war propaganda is to foment biases, to motivate towards a given action. It does not even pretend towards any correct analysis of the past or a grounded prediction of future events.
The claim of analytical historicism is that there are lessons in history and there's a way to learn from them. If this claim were insubstantial, then history would not be a science. But history is science and historians are scientists.
A historicist or historicising approach is particularly relevant wrt Putin, who is deeply into history himself. See his takes on WWII, collapse of USSR, and relations of Russians and Ukrainians. There were those who were able to see Russia's ambitions to reclaim at least USSR borders (which was not hard to see as the ambitions were spelled out clearly enough), and there were those who were not able to see the relevant accumulating signs. The latter were wrong. They failed to see what was clearly there. Now the question is whether they haughtily continue in their wrong-headedness or are able to correct themselves and prevent further disasters.
The approach is also relevant to Russians as a people insofar as they believe in a specific destiny or historical mission of their country. The approach equally applies with regard to Americans, who also believe that their country has a unique messianic mission.
A historicising approach is also relevant wrt Germany. When (West) Germany became again a force to be reckoned with, the earlier Drang nach Osten was reformulated into Ostpolitik, which aims to charm Russia with the benefits of mutual trade. The policy "worked" for half a century because the trade - gas to the West and money to the East - was ever increasing. But this policy has now unambiguously failed - if the aim was to pacify Russia and if Ukraine matters, which was the aim rhetorically but not quite truly, I think. More obviously, Germany has ignored the corruptive effect that goes along with any lucrative business - corruptive to both Russia and Germany. Germany's historical instinct is to continue with the same activity still in some form, because purely in terms of the policy there was no failure - the trade was always following an upward trend and this by itself qualified as Russia having been charmed. Ukraine does not necessarily have to get in the way of the sweet juicy trade.
Russia and USA absolutely follow their historical instincts and are thus quite predictable countries in terms of historicism. Germany lost its aggressiveness in the unconditional surrender of WWII, but not the tendency to sideline everyone who stands between Germany's Russia-relations. And when the tendency is pointed out to Germany, the aggressiveness may easily return. Special relations with Russia are just too important to Germany and, historically, when Germany and Russia are in a special agreement, bad things happen to everyone in between.
[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ58Yv6kP44[/video]
The current issue of The Spectator has quite a few clear-headed columns concerning Ukraine, Putin, Europe and U.S, policy, and more... Let me know if you want snippets and links. (I'm reading the print edition now.) :)
[Zelensky:] “It’s inappropriate for world leaders to suggest I should make certain sacrifices in terms of Ukraine’s sovereignty, in order to allow Putin to save face.”
[...]
“Emmanuel (Macron) should refrain from making certain diplomatic gestures; I welcomed his (recent) re-election,” the President said.
So, it is not hidden what Macron was doing. There are in fact a bunch of (geo)political commentators and advisors who still see finlandisation for Ukraine as a good option. It would be good for Putin, yes. And it is supergood for Putin to have someone like Macron carrying the message of what's good for Putin to Zelensky, so as to increase pressure on Ukraine from both sides.
It's how it's been for a long while. Schröder and Merkel too ordered eastern EU members around with what was suggested by Putin. The EU will likely not be able to unrot its head.
likely not be able to unrot its head.
(While not an Americanism, and arguably not even English: The coinage is both apt and cogent! :up: But might I suggest "un-rot"?)
The current issue of The Spectator has quite a few clear-headed columns concerning Ukraine, Putin, Europe and U.S, policy, and more... Let me know if you want snippets and links. (I'm reading the print edition now.) :)
Which one? Is it spectator.co.uk or spectator.org? Or spectatorworld.com?
The American Spectator (spectator.org) seems to be the typical partisan blather from USA, very Oakdalean.
The other websites appear to be British, with articles about both European and American affairs.
I have sufficient access to all of them, if I want. I probably just don't want.
The spectator.co.uk is nothing more than a little Englander publication. They have a deep dislike of all things Scottish. especially our politics. Best avoided really.
(Mumbles something about books and covers...pots and kettles...trees and forests...)
@Luxor Next you'll tell me CapX is worthless... But -of course- I mean the U.S. edition (dubbed
World, which I suppose rankles...:) 'Tany rate, it's good to hear from you again! (Any word on your erstwhile nemesis, the Howie?)
I have sufficient access to all of them, if I want. I probably just don't want.
I understand, you're attention is limited... That's what media analysts do: They
anal-ize everything — that "official" sources offer. (I think I liked you better when you were navel-gazing!:)
(Any word on your erstwhile nemesis, the Howie?)
Oh he'll be out there standing at the roadside, yelling "no surrender" whenever a march for independence is in his local area. Which there was today funnily enough..
Two pieces, three months.
(https://i.ibb.co/1d6cSqr/IMG-20220518-171108-124.jpg)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OutvYSl_TLc
Nice to see a good translation :up:
But we also need to take into account that the EU biggies are trying to maneuvre a victory to Putin for this invasion, just like they did for the annexation of Crimea. Things often work out the way the biggies want, because they are the biggies, you know.
Russia more than triples its current account surplus to US$96 billion as EU energy giants pay in rublesEven as conflicting messages continued to emerge from Brussels over the legality of complying with Moscow’s demands to pay for gas in rubles, Italy’s Eni SpA said it was opening a ruble account with Russia’s Gazprombank to keep the gas flowing.
It’s the clearest sign yet that the biggest European importers of Russian gas are counting on business as usual. Germany’s Uniper SE and Austria’s OMV AG also expect to find a way to keep buying.
Moscow’s demand on March 31 that gas payments should now be made in rubles threw markets and policy makers into disarray and companies have been scrabbling ever since for a way to keep the crucial energy flowing without breaching sanctions aimed at weakening Russia in its war in Ukraine.
The steady inflow of revenue from energy and other exports has — together with strict capital controls — helped support the ruble, turning the Russian currency into the best performer in the world this year.
If you look at Europe and Russia as locked in a cold war, it makes sense to look at the relationship as a zero sum game. Europe's loss is Russia's gain and vice versa. In that case the optimal strategy for Europe is not to buy zero fossil fuel from Russia, but a low amount of fuel. The marginal value to Europe for the first 10% is far higher than the last 10%, while the top 10% gives Russia greater profit than the bottom 10%. Fadeout instead of a cutoff is a fair strategy.
If you don't consider Russia an enemy you would buy as much as is profitable. As long as European countries use a noose-like strategy (ever-stricter sanctions) we're good. If on the other hand it is a short squeeze and let off to profit-maximizing, that would less great. But the noose is holding, and there are pretty rigorous preparations for the coming winter(s), so we are decarbonising fast.
Lavrov says that Poland has started annexing Ukraine https://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2022/06/10/17908346.shtml
By now the guy is talking like Iraqi minister of information (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf).
"http://%22https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Saeed_al-Sahhaf%22"??! What was that editor you use, again? :) (It's no substitute for your native intelligence...)
I stupidly updated the BBCode extension this week. I remember now how hard I had to work to rewrite it so that it would function on this forum. Anyway, I will get to work again.
Trivialities mean that much to you? :) Sure, it's fun to play with the means of posting... But shouldn't the matter matter more? :)
I throw this in here because I'm sort-a drunk; I remember what we'd talked about recently-, and -you might wanna learn something- here's an opinion Putin won't likely find elsewhere...
https://thedavebowmanshow.com/2022/06/11/tsv-the-next-thing/
Trivialities mean that much to you? :) Sure, it's fun to play with the means of posting...
Most of my creativity goes into tinkering with the writing device and this is the way I prefer it. It is not a triviality.
My editor is Emacs. It provides me with the same joy of hacking that I had with old Opera, even more so.
EU leaders grant candidate status to Ukraine and Moldova (https://www.euractiv.com/section/europe-s-east/news/eu-leaders-grant-candidate-status-to-ukraine-and-moldova/)
The two poorest European countries, both in war, finally got their call. The fact that they are the two poorest - and in war - is a major failure of the EU. The EU touts itself as a bastion of diplomacy, but it has failed very hard precisely at diplomacy. So it does self-appeasing gestures of pity instead, against its own rules, losing last modicum of respect along the way.
The accession criteria, or Copenhagen criteria (after the European Council in Copenhagen in 1993 which defined them), are the essential conditions all candidate countries must satisfy to become a member state. These are:
- political criteria: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
- economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;
- administrative and institutional capacity to effectively implement the acquis and ability to take on the obligations of membership.
The Union's capacity to absorb new members, while maintaining the momentum of European integration, is also an important consideration.
The EU has not even properly absorbed and integrated Greece, not to mention the rest of the Balkan countries. Yet it stupidly dreamed of dangling the carrot for Erdogan - and for Putin. God save us from those diplomats.
You keep blaming countries' failures on other countries. That is reasonable when that blamed country has colonised or destabilised the failed country in question, but not otherwise. Russia has had a negative influence on Ukraine for instance, and can be blamed. But no, it is not the EU's fault that Moldova is a poor country.
The threshold for EU candidate is countries reasonably high, but there is no working mechanism to stop member countries from backsliding once they have joined, like Poland and Hungary. If no such mechanism is agreed on Ukraine's membership can be long in waiting.
Russia has not been and will not be a member of the EU simply due to size.
But no, it is not the EU's fault that Moldova is a poor country.
Specifically with regard to Moldova, this failed https://eubam.org/what-we-do/conflict-resolution/
If this were the only occasion where EU diplomacy failed, I would not attribute much blame. But unfortunately this failure is in addition to all other EU failures.
Sure, there are some success stories too, such as the Baltic countries. But the Baltic countries became a success story in part fighting back - or escaping as a matter of providential luck - some policies that the EU biggies were trying to impose, such as suicidal border agreements with Russia.
Russia has not been and will not be a member of the EU simply due to size.
The envisioned visa freedom that I will never ever stop recalling would have made Russia a de facto Schengen member. De facto without de jure is probably worse than mere de jure. But it's reasonable to have neither of course.
The West isn’t ready to give Ukraine the security pledges it wants Ukraine is pleading for binding security guarantees to ensure long-term survival. Allies just aren’t ready to do that yet.
Despite months of conversations about the subject, the Western alliance is still divided over nearly every element of how to respond to the request, according to five European diplomats.
Should NATO, which Ukraine is aspiring to join, be having that conversation? Or should the world’s biggest military powers provide individual pledges? Are any guarantees short of NATO membership worthwhile?
And, officials are wondering, what even constitutes a “security guarantee”?
My answer is that security guarantee is Article 5. It's Nato membership after the war. But to demonstrate that there is commitment to this promise, Nato should act right now as if Ukraine were already a Nato member and as if Article 5 had been invoked.
Article 5 has not been put to a real test yet. This is the test.
What is there to fear in following through with the promise? Collapse of Russia? USSR collapsed and nothing bad happened. Nothing bad to Europe anyway. Don't be nuke cowards.
Why chicken out and make wishy-washy commitments? According to the Budapest Memorandum, USA, UK and Russia were supposed to provide security assurances for Ukraine. This failed. Minsk Agreements — Russia, France, and Germany — also failed. Don't imagine that chickens can tame the bear. Okay?
The pope's peace plan (https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/07/2/7409547/) did not get off the ground, but the war plan of Russian Orthodox Church (https://yle.fi/a/74-20039864) is succeeding. Namely, Russia (through its traditional church) is exchanging ethnic Hungarian prisoners of war with Hungary instead of with Ukraine, who the prisoners are citizens of.
Russia knows the ethnic nationalism game very well. The West has prematurely tried to pretend that ethnicities do not exist, which has resulted in a long series of diplomatic and military blunders.
Ukraine shifts Christmas to Western dates on Zelenskyy's proposal https://ukranews.com/en/news/944529-rada-changes-dates-of-public-holidays-statehood-day-july-15-defenders-day-october-1-christmas
Holiday on January 7 (the date of Orthodox Christmas) is cancelled. I won't be surprised if the entire Ukrainian Orthodox Church becomes papist like Eastern Catholics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) whose liturgy is Orthodox and whose priests marry as is normal in Orthodoxy, but they acknowledge the pope on top of it.
Ukraine’s Forces and Firepower Are Misallocated, U.S. Officials Say (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/22/us/politics/ukraine-counteroffensive-russia-war.html)
Worth reading in full, how U.S. military topheads have recommendations on how to make Ukrainian counteroffensive more effective. The obvious counterargument is that if the West had kept its assurances as per Budapest Memorandum, we would not be in this problem in the first place. What Ukraine needs now is superior firepower (because it cannot have superior manpower compared to Russia) and this is up to the West.
The main recommendation by Americans is to concentrate forces to a particular point where progress is desired, namely southern section of the front, bringing in forces from the eastern section. To me it seems this is already the case, since Ukraine is currently making small gains in south while Russia is making small gains in east. Russia made important strategic decisions under Surovikin (now jailed or worse) during winter months of abandoning the city of Kherson and constructing strong defence lines to the remaining front. All the West, particularly Germany, did during winter months was whine about lack of Russian gas for heating.
Personally I thought Ukraine started the counteroffensive very well with intros straight into Russian soil, even though this did not apparently distract Russian forces enough. It is again the fault of the West, including USA, that they try hard to discourage Ukraine from attacking in and on Russian soil for fear of dragging Nato into the war, whereas Russia in contrast is naturally fully permitted to attack on Ukrainian soil, which is ludicrous. Besides, in Putin's mind he was in combat with Nato already before the annexation of Crimea. Now that the most effective Russian troops, namely Wagner, are gone from the front, there is a chance of breakthrough, if only pressure is kept up.
In a war of attrition the Ukrainian strategy seems quite effective (backseat driving of course). If the goal is to grind the Russians down, this is a faster way to do it. So is counter-attacks in Russia.
Sure, that strategy would be more efficient if Western weapons could be used for the purpose, but I can see that Western powers, particularly the US, would be squeamish about having their weaponry attacking inside Russia. Western weapons in Ukrainian territory (which of course include Crimea and parts of the Black Sea) is no problem.
Ukraine's president Zelensky visited Estonia this week. It caught my ear that he wants to get back those refugees who would be eligible for the army. Not sure how warmly the refugees take this.
This is the status on the politico-rhetorical front, as officially expressed by the most pro-Ukraine EU member:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHFlWkejebI
I'd say the status is pretty bad. At 12:08: "I think there's a difference between 2014 and 2024. In 2014 I saw how quickly it went from Let's support Ukraine to Let's sit down and negotiate, give away the territory so that Russia is happy. This time we have been able to explain how giving in to the aggressor only gives you more war. Weakness provokes Russia. Strength doesn't."
Unfortunately no, we have not been able to explain this. First, we failed to explain this in 2014. As she acknowledges both earlier and later in the interview, there are still EU members who are unclear on the support for Ukraine and unclear on the needed outcome, and it is clear (to me) that she implies other/more members than Hungary. For example in the same context she mentions that there is still the illogical strategic requirement on Ukraine to not attack Russia's soil — this is something Hungary has nothing to do with.
The current support and sympathy that is flowing out towards Ukraine is not due to our explanations, but due to our strong example and initiative, and even more so due to the actual situation on the ground that very concretely proved the falsity and perversity of the position of western EU that left them utterly embarrassed. The concrete material proof did the trick. The EU biggies are convinced by no explanation ever. They needed an outbreak of hot war to lift their asses a bit.
However, their embarrassment is wearing off and they will soon fall back to their old attitude. Republicans in USA have already stopped the support from USA to Ukraine, so that the current balance of EU's support surpasses that of USA. This has the effect of the EU biggies thinking Our support to Ukraine is absolutely fabulous, bigger than that of USA, therefore we can pat ourselves on the back now and take it easy. Elections in USA are scheduled at the end of this year, so Democrats (and as a result entire USA) will be, in best case, cautious and indeterminate on the Ukraine topic for the entire year. In practice, "cautious and indeterminate" means a halt, and EU biggies will do the same with a delay, which is the way they have behaved all these decades.
Funny thing is, like mentioned in the Map thread (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=144.msg87751#msg87751), few in Europe seem to think that our support of Ukraine is just right. A fairly clear majority want us to do more, and a minority want us to do less (or preferably nothing at all). This applies to the political circles as well.
And I have yet to see anyone (outside that minority) happy about the current sorry state of the US, because of our own sorry state.
US and EU has had a well-working partnership through decades: US breaks things with weapons, EU rebuild them with money. US feels strong, EU feels good, and both get results, often the wanted ones.
Europe is on a rearmament trajectory, but the political goals are running ahead of the mechanics. That the US might break down in 2025 was a remote risk. Not only is the risk less remote, the US is breaking apart already in late 2023 already, which I didn't expect. That said, even if Trump should happen, the administration and Congress can ship a last package in the lame duck period. Election over, there is nothing the MAGA can do to what is left of the Republican party.
Funny thing is, like mentioned in the Map thread (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=144.msg87751#msg87751), few in Europe seem to think that our support of Ukraine is just right. A fairly clear majority want us to do more, and a minority want us to do less (or preferably nothing at all).
Yes, the majority wants us to do more and a minority wants to do less, but these are people who don't have much power over either national or union-level policies. The only effect they have is to get politicians to act busier for a few months before elections.
This applies to the political circles as well.
Not true. A majority of the political circles cannot "want to do more". They are the ones in position to do as much as they want. If we assume that the political circles would like to do more, but cannot, then why is it exactly the political circles in western EU who are unable to do more?
Nope. Support for Ukraine is precisely at the level that the political circles have set. It is in their nature to think that they have already done their best. The state of affairs is as it is not because they cannot do more even though they would want to, but because they think they are performing top-notch according to polls, charts and maps.
Edit: An easy test for the members of the political circles is to ask them to formulate victory for Ukraine or defeat for Russia. Make a poll and see what sort of answers you get. Actually, how do you formulate victory for Ukraine yourself?
And I have yet to see anyone (outside that minority) happy about the current sorry state of the US, because of our own sorry state.
The western EU political circles are afflicted — always have, always will — with the superiority complex. Under this complex, they never see or acknowledge their own sorry state. Sorry state does not exist for them. Some foreign country such as USA can be in a sorry state. Eastern EU members can be blinded by a sorry "survivalist" mindset. EU biggies themselves in their own mind are not in any sort of sorry state, never have been. EU biggies don't think they have made any mistakes that need correcting.
For a moment Scholz was able to enounce that the Ostpolitik had led to an "Irrtum". What was the lesson he took from this in the same speech? To start militarising Germany. So this "Irrtum" has been taken care of this way. It did not involve doing more for Ukraine. In his mind, Scholz was briefly in an embarrassing situation, but he got quickly out of it.
Another example: Remember Macron's flights and phone calls between Putin and Zelensky, trying to get them to agree to a peace or ceasefire or negotiate a deal over something he himself was not certain of? Clearly Macron had no idea what he was doing. Clearly he had no idea that he was undermining any possibility of formulating a common EU policy. (Actually, I assume he was doing it deliberately precisely in order to kill anobody else's better initiative just to pretend to be relevant on the world arena just to ingratiate his own narcissism, but that aside.) His attempts fell through massively. His counterproductive "diplomacy" was overrun by USA/Baltic initiative of providing Ukraine with unconditional support. Has Macron regretted his macroning for a second? Does he see how destructive and dangerous he was? Or at least that he was or is in a sorry state? Nope. Nothing. Sorry state does not exist for him. Not for a second did he think he was doing anything wrong. He does not think he is doing anything wrong now and there's no chance in the universe for him to get in any sort of sorry state.
US and EU has had a well-working partnership through decades: US breaks things with weapons, EU rebuild them with money. US feels strong, EU feels good, and both get results, often the wanted ones.
Now, once you get over this flashy oversimplification, take some time to count the wanted results as opposed to unwanted results, and you should see how skewed this characterisation is. At least, you would if you took the on-ground situation more seriously. The EU has been miserable at diplomacy at every crucial turn. Not occasionally miserable, not getting "often the wanted" results, but making things worse at every single crucial turn, such as Balkan wars, messing up relations with Poland and Hungary after they joined the EU (and almost messing them up with more countries, Estonia being a close call), failing to see any threat in Russia. The results in those situations were deaths and misery, having to call in external superior firepower (against Serbia, which means that diplomacy failed), and signing agreements (Minsk Agreements) that were doomed to be either broken (which again means that diplomacy failed) or, if not broken, then perpetuate unlawfulness (which means that whoever signed the agreements had no sense of justice).
A far more accurate characterisation of the EU activities is the way Ukranians characterise it — it was Ukrainians who came up with the words "macroning" and "scholzing" as far as I know — and the way North Africans see it — as plain old French colonialism, slightly modernised, but still unmistakably colonialism. Moreover, the entire "Global South" perceive the EU/USA/Nato/IMF etc. "seven-headed beast" as a single colonial power headquartered in the so-called collective West.
Why do they perceive it this way? I'd say, given the actions of the entity, how could they not.
... even if Trump should happen...
The final test for USA is whether Trump happens again. All branches of government should demonstrate the resolve to take him out. Thus far the judicial branch has yielded the best results, but kind of mixed. For example, the gag orders produced no consequences, even though Trump clearly breached them. The best would be for SCOTUS to decide that Trump cannot run, which is up next, seems to me.
A party whose leader attempted a coup and who fails to condemn such a leader — quite the contrary, lets him run for presidency again — should be banned. This is probably in the competency of Congress, but the current Congress is absolutely not up for it. The executive branch is making a fair attempt by driving the secret documents case, but it seems to be narrowly running out of time.