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Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 205167 times)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #550 –
Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Quote from: ersi on
Actually, shouldn't you rather make the effort to get a life without toothache? How is your toothache my problem?

Oh sure, and then you follow with a definition of analogy, but you can't follow through the analogy that understanding the moral consciences (toothaches), of others is relevant.  That's like saying "I have no moral opinion on the genitalia of young women getting sliced off because that's not my problem".

There are degrees of relevance through which the problems of people concern other people. There are also degrees of responsibility.

Let's say you have toothache. You go to the dentist. Good first step of taking your own responsibility right there. It was not the dentist's responsibility to call you.

Now, it's the dentist's responsibility to identify the problem with sufficient precision and apply the correct cure, but when you struggle and whine and run away, the dentist's responsibility stops there.

The same way, it's not my problem to provide you with a workable moral theory, to show the way to truth or anywhere, if you hate morality and truth etc. It's not my duty to save the world from whatever is threatening it. The world has to want to be saved and follow through with the necessary steps as told, then there will be a chance.

And when there is no chance, futile of you to blame me. And futile of me to care about it one way or another.

Anything wrong with this? Too complicated?
 

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #551 –
Quote from: ersi on
It's not my duty to save the world from whatever is threatening it. The world has to want to be saved and follow through with the necessary steps as told, then there will be a chance.

I'm slightly out of this discussion but that phrase got my attention.

a) It's your moral duty to try "saving the world" no matter what the result would be. Morality it's not the same as utility.
b) Is the world wanting to be saved a pre condition for a)? good question. The answer can't be a rational but an emotive one, I believe so.

What leads me to:

I find your reasoning well structured and a fine example of the result of a solid teaching system but sometimes I believe you forget emotions.
Most atheists (so I don't say all of them) are atheists by no rational reasoning but because emotions. Like teenagers they need to be against, just that. There is God will trigger No, there isn't and there you have the best of atheism - disguising emotive impulsions under a pseudo scientific cover.

Where God is at the heights and men at their knees, atheists want to change it. God must knee in front of The Atheist,in front of Man. Wow.

...........................

Why is it spreading at the western world, why so many attacks against life (abortion), family (homosexual propaganda) and God and spiritualism (happiness through materialist consumerism), that, it's the important matter.
A civilizational war is happening using well intentioned atheists that don't understand how their emotions are being used.

In the end, both atheists and theists will lose. What is emerging is something never seen before.
That's the only "problem with atheism", not understanding how they are being used as peons in a war.

A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #552 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Most atheists (so I don't say all of them)

I appreciate such a remark. :)
Generalization is useful when this care is taken. Features that describe most (not all) inside a group may describe well that group. However it possibly means that those features don't belong directly to that group, but are often found there.
Some attacks mentioned above aren't done exclusively by atheists, for example.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #553 –
Quote from: ersi on
And when there is no chance, futile of you to blame me. And futile of me to care about it one way or another.

Anything wrong with this? Too complicated?


Not too complicated--I am simply stunned by your non-caring moral attitude.  Would you care if female genital mutilation happened to your sister?  It may not be possible for you to do anything more than express a concern about something like FGM, but if enough people express a similar concern then perhaps it will finally be outlawed worldwide--albeit some 2000 years too late. 

What about something in the same vein, but closer to home.  What about Russia's woeful response to human trafficking that puts Russia in the gutter along with China as a Tier 3 country where governments are not simply too fragile to do anything, but rather too indifferent to human trafficking to make it a priority.  Perhaps if you talked to a girl who was forced into the sex trafficking trade like I have, you wouldn't be so indifferent.  Knowing you, however, there must be a proper reason and logical explanation for your uncaring moral attitude. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #554 –
Isn't a lack of empathy the primary symptom of sociopathy? :) (Or is it political opposition…? :( )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #555 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
Where God is at the heights and men at their knees, atheists want to change it. God must knee in front of The Atheist,in front of Man. Wow.


That's an awkward way to put that. But please keep in mind the medium you gather these views from. Because if your atheism views are from internet interactions, like say a debate forum, it isn't representative of a group's views so much as the medium's propose... But then there's this church thing I've heard about.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #556 –
Well a year or so back jseaton2311, I watched a television documentary about Russian children adopted by US parents and that many were badly treated and shocking. The authorities either did little or there wasn't enough official control so it happens anywhere.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #557 –
Have you ever watched a television documentary about Russian children adopted by Russian parents, RJ? Hm.
I'm sure you thought you had a point… ("America: Bad!") But your timidity betrays your intent.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #558 –
What kind of propaganda tv do they get there in rj-land?

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #559 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

I find your reasoning well structured and a fine example of the result of a solid teaching system but sometimes I believe you forget emotions.

I never forget emotions. It's just that when emotions are less relevant, I won't mention them. You don't have to know how I feel. It's not your problem :)

Quote from: jseaton2311 on

Not too complicated--I am simply stunned by your non-caring moral attitude.  Would you care if female genital mutilation happened to your sister?  It may not be possible for you to do anything more than express a concern...

Sure I would care and sure I would express my concern, but what's the use when it won't be of any real help to her? On the other hand, when I can do something to help, I will not to stop at showing concern. I will actually help. See the difference? Showing concern is one thing, actual help a whole different thing.

Showing concern is helpful in emotional terms, but it's helpful *only* in emotional terms. What's the use of a dentist who does nothing else but express concern?

Edit: And what if my sister is not an emotionalist like you? What if expressions of concern only drive her angry? This is where real help makes an even more crucial difference.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Isn't a lack of empathy the primary symptom of sociopathy? :) (Or is it political opposition…? :( )

Many ways to interpret this, but I assume that, as usual, you are not really asking an answer to a question. You are wanting to tell something, but, as usual, not clear what.

I left some droppings for you in another thread. Pick them up, give your definition of empathy - or even better, your moral theory - and we'll see from there.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #560 –
Quote from: ensbb3 on
That's an awkward way to put that. But please keep in mind the medium you gather these views from. Because if your atheism views are from internet interactions, like say a debate forum, it isn't representative of a group's views so much as the medium's propose... But then there's this church thing I've heard about.

No, ensbb3, my views on atheism are not the fruit of "internet readings" and even less this or any other forum, it simply reflects a not so small background on philosophical stances by many different authors as well as sociological and psychological reflexions.

The same way organized religions have a deep sociological component, organized atheism also does the same. Think about it and you'll notice how patterns emerge from atheism. Psychological traces are very present at atheism (you can also find them at Religions even if those traces are naturally different).

What may constitute a surprise to you is to find that atheism is organized atheism, I suppose most atheists find themselves unique and not engaged into an organized thing - wrong, they are.

There's nothing awkward at my words.

Regarding the Catholic Church, it is more interested into serving God than to care about atheism. Good for the sake of discussion me to be a somehow uncharacteristic Catholic with no place guaranteed at Heaven... :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #561 –
Quote from: ersi on
I never forget emotions. It's just that when emotions are less relevant, I won't mention them. You don't have to know how I feel. It's not your problem :)

Course not :)
Not your personal emotions, I was referring to emotions as a justification so necessary and/or important as rational justifications.

Man is himself and his circumstances. You have your rational mind, your emotions and your circumstances. A complete analysis must include it all.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #562 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Not your personal emotions, I was referring to emotions as a justification so necessary and/or important as rational justifications.

You are right when you mean that I have had a hard time finding my balance in this area.

In Jungian psychology, emotions are a rational function alongside with the intellect. However, there's still the hierarchy that puts intellect above emotions. This hierarchy is unshakable. Those with lesser intellect overcompensate it with emotions. It mostly works for everyday life, but emotions won't ever replace the intellect. Same the other way too, of course - the intellect can never replace emotions. They are separate functions for good reasons.

I tend to be very austere with emotions. When there's a choice between the intellect and emotions, I always choose the intellect and I suppress emotions, because I see every day how emotions cloud the mind in others. Living this way has occasionally endangered personal relationships for me, but this only because people cannot bring themselves to admit that I was right all along.

It's so hard emotionally when someone else is right, right? Along the way, I have developed this maxim: It's always bad when I am right. But seriously, when I consistently and sincerely point out how to improve situations, then my fault cannot be too great.

In Jungian psychology, the function hierarchically above the intellect is intuition. Most people mix intuition up with emotions. When properly discerned, intuition is the most desirable psychological function to be guided by, better than both intellect and emotions.

As Oakdale would put it, enough of this traumatic potty-training high school BS. Until next time.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #563 –
Quote from: ersi on
Those with lesser intellect overcompensate it with emotions.

Wrong. Wrong and dangerous.
But you're right, until next time.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #565 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
What may constitute a surprise to you is to find that atheism is organized atheism, I suppose most atheists find themselves unique and not engaged into an organized thing - wrong, they are.


Meh. I'm a card carrying member of the Evil Atheist Conspiracy. :left:

Though, it's basically a spoof. Most Christians spend time distancing their belief from the unfavorable characteristics of their belief system, for argument's sake anyway...
Quote from: Belfrager on
Good for the sake of discussion me to be a somehow uncharacteristic Catholic with no place guaranteed at Heaven...



...So, I understand where the "atheism is a belief system" crowd comes from. The statement, like your, "god must kneel before man" statement, presupposes your belief to be true meaning my non-belief must indeed be a belief. Any systematic attack on your belief system is therefore from an organized group. Again understandable. But it's more analogous to a flock of birds migrating, all together with unified structure, but when they get there where the individuals go is any man's guess. Not the best analogy, but sufficient for argument's sake.  ;) 

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #566 –
Quote from: ensbb3 on
presupposes your belief to be true meaning my non-belief must indeed be a belief.

You have no other options but to believe. Despite Ersi's attempts of rational demonstrations, at the end my friend, there's nothing more but to believe.

What is really important it's not to be right but to find happiness. At which side you'll find it it's written in your destiny and you'll know it through your emotions. Nothing else is important, you are nothing but the realization of your fate.
So am I. And it takes courage, you can't hide behind reason... no matter how much "awkward" it seems.

From a social/collective/civilizational kind of approach, that's a completely different story, each ones plays wherever it pleases you.

This doesn't make too much sense but it's fundamental not to make too much sense. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #567 –
:yes:

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #568 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
This doesn't make too much sense but it's fundamental not to make too much sense.  :)

Actually. It does. Taking yourself (and others) too seriously is as detrimental to happiness as anything else. 

Quote from: Belfrager on
What is really important it's not to be right but to find happiness.


I like to fall back on the arguments of how much true happiness is derived from some beliefs. They trend toward providing guidance that, when isn't appreciated by others, leaves a bitter taste in one's mouth.

 
Quote from: Belfrager on
You have no other options but to believe. Despite Ersi's attempts of rational demonstrations, at the end my friend, there's nothing more but to believe.

( No comment. let's, just once, let this thread show agreement between two sides. :) ) 

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #569 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

You have no other options but to believe. Despite Ersi's attempts of rational demonstrations, at the end my friend, there's nothing more but to believe.

Depends on the definition of belief. I favour rational demonstrations precisely because that's what I believe in. Rational demonstrations are the object of my belief because their utility is confirmed by my life experience. They have helped me see the solutions to difficult situations time after time.

Oakdale seems to have had such a careless life that even though he has trained his mind somewhat by means of intellectual interests, he has had no practical use for rigorous reasoning to solve real-life problems. As a result he has ended up believing that philosophical systems only have entertainment value, nothing more. He may have a point from his perspective. For example someone whose mother always does all the shopping may legitimately believe based on his own experience that it's absolutely worthless to sweat to earn money and to meticulously count pennies. He may be genuinely amazed that other people sternly carry on with such silly activities.

Someone else may believe in forefathers, blind faith, non-explanatory brute facts, etc. This is belief, but qualitatively different from rational demonstration and from experiential belief.

And there may be more definitions of belief. To me vehement disbelief - such as atheistic "I haven't seen it, therefore it doesn't exist!" - also counts as belief, but not everyone would agree.

Quote from: Belfrager on

What is really important it's not to be right but to find happiness. At which side you'll find it it's written in your destiny and you'll know it through your emotions.

It's quite true that happiness is most important. Happiness is the ultimate goal for everyone one way or another, but happiness also has different kinds. One may equate one's likes and desires to happiness or one may equate one's intellectual appetite and curiosity to happiness. To me happiness is the cessation of likes and dislikes, resting the tranquil mind from all activity, emotional and intellectual. If I had no responsibilities, no work, and no possessions, it would be a heavenly vacation to stay that way motionless and unperturbed, but in my current situation this kind of happiness is a luxury.

The Buddha has supposedly said: It's blissful to scratch an itch, but it's more blissful to not have any itch. (He was an atheist too, according to some definition.)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #570 –
Quote from: ersi on
It's blissful to scratch an itch, but it's more blissful to not have any itch.

Otherwise; Being satisfied isn't the same as happiness.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #571 –
Quote from: ensbb3 on
( No comment. let's, just once, let this thread show agreement between two sides.  :)  )

Three… I have a lot of sympathy with Belfrager's position, too!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #572 –
Quote from: ersi on
Oakdale seems to have had such a careless life that even though he has trained his mind somewhat by means of intellectual interests, he has had no practical use for rigorous reasoning to solve real-life problems.

:) I've worked since I was twelve, when I had a paper route (morning and evening editions of three dailies…) for which I built and maintained a clientele, negotiated with suppliers, arranged and charted routes, etc.; and, finally, sold the business for a profit…
So, your presumption seems unlikely accurate.

Your talk of happiness doesn't inspire me, nor deter me: I like to keep busy. (I can be busy, 'neath a shade tree on the bank of a river, for hours!) But, mostly, I like to be useful! I am technically retired, but I'm as busy as I've always been — caring for others…
Am I happy? The question doesn't really capture my interest: I have had -and continue to have- joyful and sorrowful moments, while I do what needs doing. I try to avoid doing harm…
Can one do more than that? I'm no saint, and -while I've indulged myself occasionally, and been a hermit- I like being among people most.
Dealing with their real problems is -I think- a worthy challenge! But I require their input, connivence and, finally, judgement — to determine how well I've performed — what I take to be my duty.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #573 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Quote from: ersi on
Oakdale seems to have had such a careless life that even though he has trained his mind somewhat by means of intellectual interests, he has had no practical use for rigorous reasoning to solve real-life problems.

:) I've worked since I was twelve, when I had a paper route (morning and evening editions of three dailies…) for which I built and maintained a clientele, negotiated with suppliers, arranged and charted routes, etc.; and, finally, sold the business for a profit…
So, your presumption seems unlikely accurate.

You read carelessly again. It should be evident even without further context what I meant. I didn't mean work per se, but having to apply methodical problem-solving in everyday life, work or otherwise.

By methodical problem-solving I mean having to face the problem in earnest, concentrate on it, pick the solution, apply it to the problem and see through with it. Going through this repeatedly one acquires an understanding of the ways to figure out the nature of different problems and the importance of the choice of the right kind of solution.

In Anglo-American universities they don't properly teach the thing called methodology. For you methodology is a list of models and you pick one or some essentially at random. You demonstrate this at every step. Whereas over here, methodology is precisely the ability to figure out what model is more appropriate to the case at hand than some other and explain why. It's the high school BS that I take seriously. Has been of much practical help in my life.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

I like being among people most.
Dealing with their real problems is -I think- a worthy challenge! But I require their input, connivence and, finally, judgement — to determine how well I've performed — what I take to be my duty.

Getting enough input and judgement from me? It's nice to cooperate :up:

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #574 –
The way that I see it, there are two things that are wrong with atheism--for the theist.  1. Theists see atheism as meaning the subversion of religion, i.e. atheists are more than just unobtrusive live and let live nonbelievers--they are all active proponents of atheism and therefore, a threat to theism (or more importantly, eternal life).  2. Atheism and atheists lack moral restraint, i.e. atheism is still a disgusting epithet unworthy of serious consideration. 

I have heard enough comments in this thread that reflect these attitudes to realize that if it lingers in the minds of intelligent and logical theists here, then it undoubtedly does even more so in the minds of all theists.  There are some here that, for whatever reason, see me as a fool for trying to defend atheism, but what better place then than in a forum such as this?  I don’t preach atheism anywhere and I don’t bring it up in normal social conversation, so where am I to have a good word on it?  If anyone thinks that what I say here is all that I say in my everyday life, then that type of thinking is certainly a more pertinent reflection of their own everyday life than it is mine. 

I’m also thinking that some people here believe that atheism has no redeeming value and instead makes life pointless, barren and futile.  I am here to say that quite the opposite is true and that, for this atheist, the redeeming value of atheism far exceeds that of any god-believing religion.  Religion necessarily creates a dependence on the afterlife that takes away (however much), from fully being able to appreciating this life on earth.  If anyone scoffs that theists don’t depend on an afterlife then realize that atheism, to the atheist, is not a hill worth dying for, but how many theists have killed, and continue to be willing to kill, for their beliefs because the hill of eternal life is (obviously), one worth dying on? 

This atheist realizes that life is a one-shot winning lottery ticket to experience this natural universe with all of his senses and his ability to reason.  There is only focus and spotlight on this life for me, making it brighter and easier to appreciate in all its fullness.  I am obligated to only those earthly higher powers that we are all obligated to and not to the constant worship and moral scrutiny of some supernatural god who may or may not decide that I’ve been good enough to qualify for heaven. 

I don’t, in any way, compromise or marginalize the one life I have based of the idea that there is always the next life to fall back on.  Many, and perhaps most, theists see this life as a warm up to the more important next life—and if the next life is the most important one, then how can one not rest on those laurels at least part of the time?  This life is not a dress rehearsal for me, this is the one and only real time showing of a one act play and I’m not going to blink, lest I miss one second of it.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J