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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 233053 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #275 –
Quote from: krake on

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on

Breaking news: PUTIN wants to annex Josh for repeated bastardization of the English language, amid fears he (Josh) may be corrected by native English speakers.   :right:

Even better:
PUTIN will send Josh for bilateral talks to Washington.
Josh will explain to Obama that Pootin isn't the president of Russia. Obama will think that a cactus revolution, missed by the NSA, took place in Russia.
Obama will show his gratitude and Josh will return to his basement with a few bags stuffed with $$$.

This is why our countries run the world and run it well. :cheers:

As always, well played Sir.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #276 –
 :cheers:

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #278 –
Quote from: krake on

Historical wars and occupations?
The people of those territories (whatever territories/nations you have in mind) don't hold an exclusive monopol over suffering.
Two world wars of the last century, add historical wars of earlier centuries, the bombings of this century and you'll get the picture.
Blame Russia or Putin for all nations' /people's sufferings if it makes you feel better.

You are thinking way too big for the situation. Remember, we were talking about Crimea and Ukraine. In the historical context, it's about Russia's ambitions to get back the borders of Soviet Union (or of Russian Empire, that makes about the same territory). It's not about all nations and all peoples, but people within and immediately around those borders. You seem very intent to ignore history.

Quote from: krake on

Quote from: ersi on
So you prefer to be the chessman of Russia's geostrategic interests. Whereas I refuse to be a chess piece at all.

Russia's geostrategic interests?
Are you kidding or just blinded by hatred?
Who were the main meddling actors in the Ukraine? Russia? Putin?
Wherefrom got the rebels backing?

You mean United States (I mention it because you mentioned it before)? If so, then you are not just ahistorical, but totally uncontextual, probably kidding or blinded by hatred or all of that. The United States doesn't have direct power over Klichko, Tymoshenko, and others who were important in the Maidan riots. US/EU may have indirect influence by means of rhetorical support, but that's indirect and rhetorical, not "backing" in any relevant sense.

See the situation as it is. Russia is going ahead with the annexation as predicted. US and EU backing is nowhere to be seen. It's like with Hitler. Nobody did anything when Hitler anschlussed Austria and annexed Czechoslovakia. Only when he attacked Poland - which he actually agreed on by means of MRP - the West began doing something. Until then the "backing" from the West was pure rhetorics.

There were several ways to ground the situation earlier. Yanukovych could have used weapons against rebels, that's what normal heads of state do. Why? Because the rebels were about to overthrow the state and that's what head of state is supposed to do with such people. Yanukovych didn't do it. Maybe it was because the rebels actually had the backing of the people? Okay, this is too much for you. Then it was for some other reason, namely, because Putin reined Yanukovych. Who else could have kept him in line? Or, Yanukovych was just plain incompetent coward. That happens. Or the combination of everything I mentioned. You can freely add that United States and EU were major players and Yanukovych was listening to them - even though just before he had rejected the EU treaty proposition. You are free to think whatever you want.

Another moment was when the new government in Ukraine had taken over and Russia's troops began trickling into Crimea, and they moved the referendum in Crimea to an earlier date and changed the contents of it. This was the moment to protect the country, to give battle orders to Ukrainian troops in Crimea and push Russians back to the base. Why this should have been done? Because the new government had to show that it's in power now and is serious about keeping Russians at the base where they belong. With armed conflict erupting, the West would not be able to stand idly by any more and would be forced to take a real stance instead of turning the blind eye. You are again free to mumble something about Western backing here, but it's just irrelevant to the situation, because the situation is what it is. Instead of backing the new government, the West seems to have suggested to "wait and see" - which makes perfect sense for the indecisive West, but makes absolutely no sense for the Ukrainians. So much for "backing".

Quote from: krake on

Cui bono?

Indeed, cui bono. My assessment: Ukraine was turned into a power vacuum and Russia is taking it over. Your assessment? That someone on the other side of the globe is "really" doing it all and we here are mere puppets? Are the existence of Soviet Union, Iron Curtain, etc. also due to that we are mere puppets of forces geographically on the other side of the globe? Poor Russians can't think and act for themselves, but are always victims of blind forces? Was Hitler also played this way? He did nothing of himself?

Quote from: krake on

BTW, you don't have to agree because unlike your false reasoning about me I see where you are coming from.

Right. Namely, I stay within the geopolitical and historical context. You don't, and that's why I don't agree.
 

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #279 –
Quote
it's about Russia's ambitions to get back the borders of Soviet Union (or of Russian Empire, that makes about the same territory).


It's worse than that. Putin wants Alaska back, something that I support if Sarah Palin goes along as a part of the deal. Not only can you see Russia from Alaska, you can see Alaska from Russia, and Putin has his binoculars out.


http://voiceofrussia.com/2012_03_30/70148263/

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #281 –
Quote from: ersi on
Right. Namely, I stay within the geopolitical and historical context. You don't, and that's why I don't agree.

I see your geopolitical and historical context. Good luck with it.

However, the pathologic dimensions of your hatred are remarkable. In comparison with your train of thoughts the Right Sector looks like an innocent gang...

Comparing Russia with Nazi Germany and Putin with Hitler can be dismissed as russophobic rhetoric. You are in good company with Hillary Clinton. However even Hillary had to whitewash her statement later. So far so good.

But this:
Quote from: ersi on
This was the moment to protect the country, to give battle orders to Ukrainian troops in Crimea and push Russians back to the base. Why this should have been done? Because the new government had to show that it's in power now and is serious about keeping Russians at the base where they belong. With armed conflict erupting, the West would not be able to stand idly by any more and would be forced to take a real stance instead of turning the blind eye.


Some of the Ukrainian units in Crimea might have obeyed the orders of the self-proclaimed 'leadership' whereas others might have not.
What next?
Should have loyal Ukrainian military in Crimea start fighting pro-Russian militias or/and Russian troops in order to keep Crimea despite the will of the vast majority of its inhabitants? Fine.
What next?
Send Ukrainian troops into Crimea and fight pro-Russian militias and the Russian troops stationed there? Fine.
What next?
Declare war and ask the NATO for help? Fine.
What next?
Start WWIII?

Hey, you are even ahead of Victoria Nuland. Not only FUCK THE EU but FUCK THE WORLD.
All this only to pacify your sick mind for a short time? Only for a short time because even assumed you would survive WWIII, it won't be very funny. Not even for you.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #283 –
Quote from: krake on
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!


Ukraine is of moderate importance to the US, but huge importance to EUrope. EU and the Ukraine would benefit greatly increased trade and cooperation (and a less dysfunctional Ukraine at their border). 

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #284 –
Whether there are more similarities between Putin and Hitler remain to be seen. The worry is, as ersi points out, that a similar pattern to the creeping annexation/invasions of Hitler will be enacted. Whatever one thinks of the validity of the "interim government" in The Ukraine, the fact remains that Putin's Russia has intervened in the affairs of another country and is now in the process of annexing part of the territory.

Personally I don't have too much faith in the approach of the leaders of any country just now, I guess we will only find that out after the fact. Are the measures being put in place by the US and the EU going to repatriate the Crimea? I don't think so. Are they going to make matters worse? Of course they are. Did Putin do the right thing? No, of course not.

Actually I think Putin has been surprisingly simple minded. Or maybe cynically mendacious since it's clear that the annexation sits well with the Russian population (although I note not all) and this will help him go on, and on, and on in power. He could have waited and sooner or later, the Crimea issue would have fallen into his lap. instead he has precipitated the World into a very dangerous situation.

I don't see the US and the EU following the exact same paths on this one for very long, as Jax points out perspectives are different, but it will take time for Russia to regain / earn trust in its commitment to international agreements. Maybe it will take a change in Russian leadership before that can happen. Meanwhile damage will be done all round.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #285 –
Krake, thus far I have gathered that your central thesis is "Fuck EU. It's America's fault what Russia does." How do you support this? I see that historical evidence matters nothing to you. What matters then? Hatred for America? How do you justify this?

You are right that I hate Russia. But I don't hate blindly. I am suspicious of Russians for good reasons stemming from living historical memory. Note that it's living memory, so it's not very historical actually, and definitely it's not pathological. It's common sense to have history as guideline. By extension, I hate all countries with imperial ambitions, including the United States, and I would like to see some forces to keep such ambitions under control, even if the forces in question be themselves against each other. Whereas in your case I see absolutely no rhyme or reason in your starting position and no guideline to your aims either. You make no sense from beginning to end. You are simply praising Russia for annexation well done.

I agree actually. The annexation is well performed indeed. Russians struck at the right moment: Olympics on one hand (maximum number of foreign nationals and officials in a vulnerable position) and Ukraine at its weakest on the other - the EU proposal rejected and the president powerless amidst of riots. Now, it's common sense that this is not an accident. It takes a considerable degree of calculation to fit the attack this way. So it should be self-evident that there's nothing accidental in Crimea's annexation. Russia was waiting for this chance all along.

Certainly US/EU had their part in the events, but whatever US/EU had in mind to achieve, they got fooled and Russia got the upper hand. Why do you irrationally laugh out the one side and, equally irrationally, defend whatever the other side is doing is beyond me. For me there's a right way to do things and a wrong way, and both East and West are wrong here. Plus you have completely forgotten the people of Ukraine who have fallen between the events. No perspective, no guideline, no rhyme or reason.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #286 –
Quote from: jax on

Quote from: krake on
Europe has many common interests with the USA.
To be used as a chessman on the US geostrategic interest chessboard is not one of them!!!


Ukraine is of moderate importance to the US,

If you mean moderate economic importance, then I agree.
Why would the USA invest more than a billion over the years for a regime change in the Ukraine? Human kindness?
Many countries where the USA has military bases is of moderate economic importance to the USA.

Quote from: krake on
but huge importance to EUrope. EU and the Ukraine would benefit greatly increased trade and cooperation.

Nonetheless incomparable with the benefit of greatly increased trade and cooperation between Russia and the EU.
It would heve been a win-win situation (which Russia hoped for since the fall of the Berlin wall) for the EU and Russia.
What Russia got instead were new military bases in its neighborhood...
That's where geostratecic interests of the USA come into play. A divided self-absorbed Europe is a more convenient ally to deal with than a self-reliant one...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #287 –
The EU isn't going to mess with Putin. The reason? Oil and gas imports.
Quote
Russia, the world’s largest oil producer, exported $160 billion worth of crude, fuels and gas-based industrial feedstocks to Europe and the U.S. in 2012.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #288 –
Quote from: ersi on

You are right that I hate Russia.

I appreciate this honest statement. I mean it!

Since we already made clear our positions which differ for whatever reason, I'll stop arguing with you on this issue.
IMHO, it makes little sense, neither for me nor for you.  :coffee:

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #289 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

The EU isn't going to mess with Putin. The reason? Oil and gas imports.

The EU is already messing with Putin and not only since the Maidan events.
What the EU isn't going to do is to commit suicide.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #291 –
Quote from: string on

it will take time for Russia to regain / earn trust in its commitment to international agreements. Maybe it will take a change in Russian leadership before that can happen. Meanwhile damage will be done all round.

Why are you so pessimistic?
After all other countries starting a war based on fabricated lies managed to regain/earn trust in their commitment to international law in a relative short time.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #292 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

Fifty years of Russian occupation can do that to a person.

Agreed.

BTW, did you know that one of Putin's brothers succombed during the siege of Leningrad?
Or that unlike some of our closest Western friends Russia didn't oppose the Reunification?
Or that Putin is speaking fluently German?
Weird world.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #293 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

The EU isn't going to mess with Putin. The reason? Oil and gas imports.
That cuts both ways. Neither Norway nor Russia have enough LNG or pipeline capacity to freely sell their gas on the global market. The EU is a major source of Russian gas money, money the government needs. Disruptions, or talk of disruptions, hurt both parties badly, and both will go to great lengths to keep oil and gas out of any other disagreements they might have with each other.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #294 –
Quote from: krake on
That's where geostratecic interests of the USA come into play. A divided self-absorbed Europe is a more convenient ally to deal with than a self-reliant one...
It so happens that the exact same divided EU is also more convenient to deal with for Russia. Just like the United States who prefers separate agreements with the several member countries of EU instead of dealing with EU as a unity, Russia does the same. Have you not noticed how Russia plays the energy games with Germany specifically over the heads of everyone else in between, war machinery games with France specifically, and pulls the economic rug from under the Baltic countries and Finland from time to time with the ever-changing customs and border transport regulations that are fine-tuned for specific strategic goods of the neighbouring countries, not the first-rate members? Russia divides the EU as calculatedly as US does, and EU - particularly the "old" members - let themselves be puppeteered as moronically as with US.

Quote from: krake on

Quote from: ersi on

You are right that I hate Russia.

I appreciate this honest statement. I mean it!

Since we already made clear our positions which differ for whatever reason, I'll stop arguing with you on this issue.
That's kinda disappointing. First, my position has actually not so much to do with hatred, but more with historical memory, which - incidentally but for obvious reasons - happens to involve hatred. And second, you did not make your position clear by any means. By that I mean precisely the reasons behind the position, those remain disappointingly non-existent. In my view, there's no position without reasons for the position. Well, I know, far from everyone is logical in this world and I must live with it, but, on the other hand, I am utterly logical and the world must live with it.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #295 –
Quote from: ersi
Well, I know, far from everyone is logical in this world and I must live with it, but, on the other hand, I am utterly logical and the world must live with it.

You may be fooling yourself. Are you sure you're not just reacting to past events?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #296 –
Quote from: krake on
Democracy hits Ukraine
RT!..:faint:
:zzz:
Quote from: ersi on
You are right that I hate Russia. But I don't hate blindly. I am suspicious of Russians for good reasons stemming from living historical memory.
There are Russians and Russians! :)
O'k, count me a Cactus.:cheers:
Quote from: krake on
(which Russia hoped for since the fall of the Berlin wall)
Here you seem to reveal that you mix up entities.
Russia is an ambiguous contrivance (as most if not every country is), and is homogeneous neither synchronically nor diachronically.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #297 –
Quote from: Josh on
Here you seem to reveal that you mix up entities.
Russia is an ambiguous contrivance (as most if not every country is), and is homogeneous neither synchronically nor diachronically.

Simply put, you can trust Josh. I don't, but you can.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #298 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

You may be fooling yourself. Are you sure you're not just reacting to past events?
You mean it would be better to go out and invade
somewhere instead? Past events are what we are reacting to, otherwise it wouldn't be a reaction.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #299 –
I'm guessing here that there are Russians and there are Russians means much the same as there's the United States and there's the United States. In both cases, the people are probably a good sort. The governments on the other hand--- not so much.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!