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Poll

Should Scotland be an independent country?

Yes.
[ 8 ] (57.1%)
No.
[ 6 ] (42.9%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Topic: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time (Read 98242 times)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #150 –
I don't know about anybody else, but for my part I immediately discount anything appearing in a scandal-rag like the Globe. That stuff is printed for amusement purposes only, and it's quite likely that an "Onion" headline is closer to the truth.

"Beyonce reveals she is bearing space-alien baby!"

Oh, really? OK, if you say so, Globe, I guess it's true..... not.

The actual vote, when it happens, will likely be nutty enough without scandal-rag help, as it happens.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #151 –
Quote from: string on

RJH - has there been any clarification in Scotland about how things might work if a separated Scotland would use the Pound, while not being part of a currency union?

...

I can imagine that non-problem becoming a real one in the "keeping the pound regardless" scenario. For border trade, for example, and for visits. Where will Scotland get it's actual money from? I can imagine a situation like it was in Russia on the early in the `90s when visitors would be asked for dollars (for a discount) as it was a stable currency.

Ask anyone from the border region between the Czech Republic and Slovakia. When they divided both kept their own version the Koruna, which started out at parity and at least in the border region either one was accepted on either side. I'm not sure if the two Korunas ever differed enough in value to cause problems, but these days both use the Euro.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #152 –
Quote from: string on

Quote from: Belfrager on

A Nation that doesn't take its destiny in its own hands, it's not a Nation.
Nothing can change this.
Does that mean, in your view, that none of the countries in the EU are true nations?

What about members of the UN?

The UN is a debating club, not any sort of government ( and if I remember correctly, that's exactly what it's supposed to be ).

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #153 –
Well SmileyFaze has either blinkers or talks to those discharged from a mental health place. Where the heavens does he get the 60 or 70% for independence?? Not one poll has even listed a majority for the yes people. Obvious he dealth with a couple of emotional Hielan Hame granny minds that dream but i gave up on Brigadoon as a child.

Can I also say that my Chicagoan friend mjsmsprt40 hits the nail on the head regarding currency. The Nationalists cannot give an answer to the stated fact by the UK that there will be NO shared currency in an independent Scotland yet the SNP still wants to be with the Bank of England. As mjsmsprt40 has acknowledged (and I have said it here) how can you plan your own economy if another country can decide what you can do? Now the SNP is getting round to have to admit that the money they would need to change everything from tax, economy, registrations of cars and all such things along with passports and everything else would mean borrowing in the 10 figures. It is always the same from their leader who blusters when challenged on indepth things.

As I informed he used to quote Ireland re economics and they only got off their knees by joining the EEC and be subsidised by places like Britain, France, Germany, etc. We helped subsidise  Portuga tool! When Ireland unfortunately went nearly bankrupt and wages reduced sadly the SNP then wanted to copy the Scandinavian countries. Yet there tax is 50% of you income and would not go down well here at al. Neither can you transpose another culture which has a different history.

Now where is that dashed butler when you want him as I need to send a case of Irn Bru to Chicago.  8)
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #154 –
Regarding polls, here is the BBC page on the subject

Scottish referendum poll tracker

It looks like the undecided are moving to the No side of the debate.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #155 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
We helped subsidise  Portuga tool!

You helped nothing. You, like the rest, behaved as usurers, sinister moneylenders practicing exorbitant interest rates.
That's a crime, by the way.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #156 –
As a matter of curiously, what was the loan, what for and what was the interest rate?

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #157 –
Around 7%, sixty or seventy thousand million euros, for paying back other loans lend by the same ones, as a result of EU directives forbidden us of having our fishing, agriculture and industry.

And there you have how mob style financing is done these days with the connivance of European Governments.

Not complaining about anything just to let clear that we never had any help from no one, Scots, British, Germans, whatever.

Course rjhowie thought deeply about all those things. As a result, he went running under British skirts faster than Bip Bip.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #159 –
Quote from: Macallan on

Ask anyone from the border region between the Czech Republic and Slovakia. When they divided both kept their own version the Koruna, which started out at parity and at least in the border region either one was accepted on either side. I'm not sure if the two Korunas ever differed enough in value to cause problems, but these days both use the Euro.


Right, but not quite right. To quote this wise guy:
Quote from: jax on

It is possible to have a currency union, but it is not worth the pain, uncertainty, and suffering. When Czechoslovakia split, that's what happened, a transitional de facto currency union, and then the Czechoslovak koruna (Crown) became the Czech koruna and Slovak koruna. Until Slovakia joined another currency union that is, the Eurozone.

It went pretty smoothly. Great for collectors.


The Czech Republic never switched to Euro, and is in a noticeable lack of urgency in doing so either (the new entrants are all obliged to switch, but Sweden showed the way out for reluctant new members). After a short period of currency union, it was split into Czech and Slovak koruna. Czechoslovak bank notes had gotten a stamp to show if it was a Czech or Slovak note, like the 1000 bill above, and were replaced by true Czech and Slovak notes as quick as the printing press could manage. The Slovak koruna fell a bit relative to the Czech, and stayed about 15-20% lower for most of the time before they rushed into the Eurozone.

Were there transition costs for the two countries? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.

The most sensible option would be to have a Scottish pound. Would there be transition costs? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #160 –
Quote from: jax on

The Czech Republic never switched to Euro, and is in a noticeable lack of urgency in doing so either (the new entrants are all obliged to switch, but Sweden showed the way out for reluctant new members).

Huh, I thought they switched in the mid-2000s, it occasionally popped up in german media. Guess they were planning to and never did ( or some german journalists confused joining the EU with joining the euro zone - your guess is as good as mine ). Haven't been there since 2002 since the trip is now considerably longer :right:

Quote from: jax on

After a short period of currency union, it was split into Czech and Slovak koruna. Czechoslovak bank notes had gotten a stamp to show if it was a Czech or Slovak note, like the 1000 bill above, and were replaced by true Czech and Slovak notes as quick as the printing press could manage. The Slovak koruna fell a bit relative to the Czech, and stayed about 15-20% lower for most of the time before they rushed into the Eurozone.

I've been in Slovakia in the 1990s, shortly after the split. Must have been 1995 or so. They already had their own coins which almost all looked brand new. As I said, around the border they were used interchangeably. Brought a set of slovakian coins back for my coin collecting grandfather.

Quote from: jax on

Were there transition costs for the two countries? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.

The most sensible option would be to have a Scottish pound. Would there be transition costs? Certainly. Chaos, uncertainty, doubt? Not at all.

Well, I heard the scottish pound already exists :right:

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #161 –
True, but it wouldn't do to say that paper bills issued by the Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland... would be the Scottish cash in circulation. For one thing they are the minority bills even in Scotland, while in England they are rare and there are people like String who refuse to take them. Money would have to be denoted Scottish and Non-Scottish, and south of the border it would probably be better to create a New Model Pound or some such. You'd have to pay a fair penny for it, but on the plus side you flush out the suitcases of black money that way, like what happened in countries switching to Euro or in Czechoslovakia. Governments like that.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #162 –
On the matter of the status of the Scottish paper currency, after a little research, I offer the following for clarification:

Notes and coins for the English pound are legal tender only in England and Wales but are used in Northern Ireland and Scotland.  Alongside this both Scotland and Northern Ireland use their own versions of some notes issued by a select few banks located within those countries.

Scottish Bank notes are issued by the Bank of Scotland, Clydesdale Bank and Royal Bank of Scotland. While they are not legal tender, they are UK Parliament-approved legal currency and may (but not must) be accepted. However it is the responsibility of the bank that issued them to exchange them for an equivalent amount in English Pounds.

I have only seen 2 or 3 Scottish notes in my lifetime and no Northern Ireland notes. I would not accept them for fear of neither being able to exchange them for English pounds nor being able to spend them. It’s probably different near the border with Scotland but I don't know.

There is a little further information in question 24 of the Bank of England FAQ.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #163 –
There's a difference between legal tender and legal currency? That clarification fails to clarify anything. It's as silly as it would be if euro area coins with German flip side were of doubtful value in France or French coins in Germany. Untenable and pointless.

It seems that Bank of England merely has not made up her mind properly. On one hand the dependencies (or whatever the parts of UK are called) are bound by the currency (legal tender), on the other hand they are free to have a little illusion of independence (opportunity to issue "own" money).

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #164 –
Quote from: ersi on

There's a difference between legal tender and legal currency? That clarification fails to clarify anything. It's as silly as it would be if euro area coins with German flip side were of doubtful value in France or French coins in Germany. Untenable and pointless.

It seems that Bank of England merely has not made up her mind properly. On one hand the dependencies (or whatever the parts of UK are called) are bound by the currency (legal tender), on the other hand they are free to have a little illusion of independence (opportunity to issue "own" money).


No doubt you have looked at the internet for a definition of legal tender, as I have and found it somewhat confusing, not least because the definition varies from country to country in terms of what people understand by the term.

The best definition I found, to my mind, is that from here where it states that "Legal tender is currency that cannot legally be refused in payment of debt".

With that in mind, read now this and it begins to make sense. Note the extension of legal tender status to coins; presumably this is the same for the Euro zone.

The fact is that normal people don't distinguish money in that way and it has become more up to the individual as to whether they accept payment in a different form than legal tender (that is the standard currency of the country). So we accept cheques, bank transfers and even, sometimes, Scottish money.

But formally I can't refuse to be paid in physical money that is legal tender (see last link, but I can refuse payment in some other currency (eg Dollars) or another recognised legal currency like the Sottish Pound.

All that being said, it seems to be, for practical purposes, that Scotland is actually currently sharing the pound.The pound is underwritten by UK Government guarantees at least to the extent of protecting saving of individuals up to a certain amount (£85,000) per each separate bank but also de facto as a protection against failure of the bank and its consequent huge impact on people and industry. The rescue of Lloyd's Bank and the Royal Bank of Scotland (both registered in Scotland) is an example of this currency union in action.

That protection is both the reason why the SNP so desperately want to have the currency Union, to cushion their dodgy financial plans, and a prime reason why the UK is not going to grant it. It is also a reason why, if the "Yes" vote were to win the day, Banks and Insurance Companies in Scotland will flee south of the border to gain credible security and be closer to the main body of their customers. People are well aware of that and I for one have already lined up an English-based Bank "just in case". At present I don't think it will be needed.

As for the remark about "dependencies - that's a slight to Scotland and therefore also a slight to Britain.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #165 –
Quote from: string on

No doubt you have looked at the internet for a definition of legal tender, as I have...

No, I didn't. I have served as the editor of the ECB monthly bulletin at the central bank of my own member country, which meant arranging and supervising the hasty translation process of the thing from euro-English to the local vernacular. The original language was specifically euro-English, with strictly controlled terminological and phraseological peculiarities that set it apart from UK English.

Actually, I'm not sure if it's the continental variety of English or the UK variety that forcefully tends to set itself apart, but my solid impression from this work is that there are differences in the respective usage, and in England the meanings tend to be fluid, either unruly or specifically tuned so as to be at odds with the continental terminology, so it seems. English on the continent is administratively steered to be a unifying factor, whereas UK likes to artificially distinguish itself. Your talk about Scotland sharing the pound and the Government guaranteeing and protecting it, where sharing, guaranteeing, and protecting seem to have peculiar ad hoc meanings, firmly reminds me of this impression.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #166 –
You're probably right about their being an ad hoc nature of English used in the UK, also about  it being fluid and possibly unruly as is common, I suspect, with any living language. I suppose I should mention that the definition of "legal Tender" I quoted was from an American source.

But you're not right about there being specifically tuned so as to be at odds with continental terminology. Apart from pre-dating the concept of "Continental English" (if that exists at all as a European wide phenomenon) the Brits have hardly had such things on their minds during the evolution of the language. Nothing artificial about that other than normal human behaviour.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #167 –
Regarding Scottish banknote issues. When I was young there were places in England where they treated a Scots note as if foreign and in the pre-decimal time as worth nineteen and six pence and Jewish people get a snigger at being tight? In other places they looked at the things as if alien even thoug it said 'pind sterling'. Imknow all about the legal tender stuff but having travelled to and from Scotland and Belfast for years I had no problem using Scots bank notes there  and again when i had an odd Ulster or Northern banknotes used them here. Why the English folk seen the need to be so iffy only helps those damn Nationalists.

As for the Referendum you would hardly think it was happening as there is no chatter about it except on television where they keep hitting us with stuff that is repeated and repeated to the point of a long sigh. In personal conversations with people I know one can open up a chat especially as I have a goodly supply of those large jacket sticker badges saying "NAW". On Monday I went into the city centre to the Grand Lodge HQ and got another pile of sticker sheets  asI have been asked for them.

We did have an interesting "competition" as the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn was re-enacted on the field near Stirling Castle and town. Now late me say as a staunch Scottish Unionist that it was a brilliant route by us against an army much bigger and truly exceptional. However the organisers had to take over from the chairy running the event due to lack of ticket sales and they also had to cut the days from 3 to 2. It was being suggested the nationalists were hying it although no political material weas allowed. However on one tv channel the couple of people interviewed were Yes inclined. Then the SNP started a passing moan because in Stirling there was a massive military presence with the salute taken by HRH Princess Ann. It was vastly attended and children give both Union and Saltire flags. That was Armed Forces Day by the way.

I have already stated that Salmond lied as per usual and on the matter of Scots not getting the government they voted for. In my explanation I contradicted the SNP by confiriming that 9 times when Scotland voted Labour since the War and on 2 occasions the Conservative & Unionists. Now here is another interested bit of figures.

At the last General Election

At the last General Election the SNP polled 490,000 and they like to boast about their total  but note this 880,000  voted for the Tories and Liberal Democrats. And with all the hype and sneering at the Scots Tories that Party itself took 413,000 votes! I don't have the figures for Labour but they will also be large. The Nationalists always sneer at the Conservative Party yet ignore the number of Scots who vote for them. Now just think on those figures and muse on the Scottish Government Elections on a non- first past the vote system. Are they trying to rant that the Cons are not broad based and there are over 400,00 toffs like the PM here?? There is a consistency I will admit with the Nationalists in that they lie, ignore and sneer with the bullying mouth at the top aided by his always adoring lloks from his No 2 that annoying Nicola Sturgeon?

Salmond says that on a NO vote he wil continue as SNP Leader well that should stop him from crying when the results come in!

"NAW"

"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #168 –
Quote from: string on

But you're not right about there being specifically tuned so as to be at odds with continental terminology. Apart from pre-dating the concept of "Continental English" (if that exists at all as a European wide phenomenon) the Brits have hardly had such things on their minds during the evolution of the language. Nothing artificial about that other than normal human behaviour.

But I was right in silently assuming that the issue would look the opposite from our respective opposite ends :)

You speak as if you own English language, but to me English is not really a language. English is lingua franca. It belongs to everybody and everybody is, fortunately or unfortunately, free to twist it for their own twisted needs. English as used in EU administrative structures certainly takes odd shapes at times, and even more so as used by the wider population, but there's nothing that lingua franca (a language whose foreign speakers outnumber native speakers) can do about it.

Small languages are properly languages: Tribal or regional or national code that keeps outsiders outside, when internal matters are being handled.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #169 –
Quote from: ersi on
But I was right in silently assuming that the issue would look the opposite from our respective opposite ends :)

You speak as if you own English language, but to me English is not really a language. English is lingua franca. It belongs to everybody and everybody is, fortunately or unfortunately, free to twist it for their own twisted needs. English as used in EU administrative structures certainly takes odd shapes at times, and even more so as used by the wider population, but there's nothing that lingua franca (a language whose foreign speakers outnumber native speakers) can do about it.

Small languages are properly languages: Tribal or regional or national code that keeps outsiders outside, when internal matters are being handled.
Oh come on, ersi, you know better than that! Only a dead language is static, not changing as its speakers come into contact with new things or new cultures or even develop new words. I think we need some qualifiers to go with the word "language".

Forgive me, I forget where you hale from - is it Estonia? Somewhere Baltic I think. If that's the case then maybe there are some of your native words words that have crept into English for adoption and vice versa. Welcome to them.

I worked for 30 years in a European Organisation where English was used a lot. There were English words which assumed their own meaning and of course an English person not exposed to that culture would not have known exactly what was meant. Notable were US words which drifted through and got used. Normal stuff I think and not something to get excited about, at least not as far as I'm concerned.

I think I speak a proper language and I expect you do too! :)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #170 –
I will be joining over 8,000 other Scottish unionists marching in our annual parade and thousands of supporters watching. As for Salmond and his female deputy who gazes at him like a pop fan, I don't even listen to them on television as I gave up listening to fairy tales when a wee laddie. Shame they didn't grow up.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #172 –
Hope you aren't miscalling me there string as I am a lowlander and have well established that on forums in the past! Too many of my fellow Scots have been brainwashed into what is effectively a nosnense over Scottishness. Big money was spent on putting in Galeic names alongside the English ones.They think Gaelic is out real national language and the kilt the national dress. Both are a load of old cobblers. Kilts were never in the majority and were for the wild Highlanders who used to come down to the Lowlands and steel catle and sheep, etc. In fact if there was to be a more realistic national dress ot would be the dark jerkin of the Lowlander, knee breeches with long socks, brogues and if wearing a hat then atammy. Naby blue and hodden grey would be the majority colour. Gaelic was never all over Scotland either.

Now the BBC spends large sums on a Gaelic tv channel whilst the language continues to decline up north. Down here we have a Gaeloc Primary and Secondary School to encourage those wishing to learn the lingo. These two schools in Glasgow will never be over subscribed and Gaelic is a difficult language. Don't mind people wanting to retain a heritage but i do get miffed at my fellow Scots falling for this cobblers about national dress and language. For now the union Flag of Gt Britain will continue to fly from my upstairs front bedroom window until September(did put up some pennants on the driveway at the garage just for one day on the 5th July!)

Proud to be Scots - proud to be British.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #173 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

Hope you aren't miscalling me there string as I am a lowlander ...
I don't understand you rjh, the video in that link was taken from the "Any Questions" Programme on the BBC. The "Highlander" declared himself as such. He made two little speeches, both somewhat similar.


I was not referring to you (unless it was you of course!  :) )

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #174 –
Ha ha, wasn't me but I staunchly British and Sottish too!  :lol:
"Quit you like men:be strong"