Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

You see, ersi, why the Ionian disputational mode of philosophy eventually prevailed?

But the benefits regarding stress and its management through meditation have indeed been documented via physiological investigation, that is, laboratory experiments. Ancient (and simple) breathing techniques have been investigated -apart from any doctrinal preconceptions- and their benefits are well-documented and understood, in physiological terms.

Due to advancements (more correctly - degeneration) in science, physiologists may very well be documenting the benefits of what they think is meditation, and you may easily think that this settles the topic. But it doesn't. Consider:

- Modern science has had no say in the development and original documentation of meditation techniques
- Modern science's understanding of those techniques may consequently be limited (e.g. breathing techniques is not meditation, they are an optional part of it - how could you miss that? but it perfectly reflects your level of understanding)
- Meditation techniques were developed and documented long before modern science came around, and these older writings represent a much richer understanding of what it is about.
- Therefore, that which truly settles the topic is practice the way it was meant to be practised.

Meditation (and mysticism) is a psychophysical discipline. Not merely physical or physiological, but necessarily psychological. By reducing it to physiology, you are being reductionist. Elsewhere you argued against reductionism, so you'd better stop doing it.

First, your presumption that my mention of a physiological explanation of some of the benefits of some (partial? Perhaps.) meditational techniques was somehow meant to "settle" this topic is merely an additional and telling bit of evidence, that you do -consistently- argue from Authority!

If one outwardly performs meditation's techniques and achieves the outwardly discoverable benefits, on what basis would or could you determine that they'd done it "wrong"?

Instead of showing in what I went wrong, you call me ignorant or perverse.

Science, and some forms of philosophy, do not require understanding of the whole of creation as the starting point. Indeed, bits and pieces -problems, if you will- are taken one at a time, and tested (tried, in an old meaning of that word).

Who would try (in the just mentioned sense) any Master's ideas, when disputation is first and foremost a derogatory act, a contradicting of Right Understanding or an insult given to the Master?

Because reductionism has a richly deserved bad reputation doesn't mean that it is never useful and reasonable.

So:
Why is it (according to you) that some breathing techniques (and some other identifiable and separable practices) are not legitimate (and, possibly enlightening — in the non-mystical sense) objects for scientific investigation?

If I heard correctly, the current government of China has taken a novel stance on a mystical matter: They outlawed unauthorized reincarnations!
And -without going into it- I'd say the move was reasonable and rational… From a Western perspective, it's hilarious. (Of course, one's sense of humor is ineffable! And let's leave it at that. )

At the risk of, once again, sounding ignorant to you (and I’m not afraid of that), is it possible, in meditation, for one to take what they need and leave the rest?  Can I accept and enjoy the enhancements in physical, mental and emotional health without getting into the spiritual unfoldment and/or infinite consciousness part?  Or is that akin to buying a diamond ring just for the nice box and too ridiculous, in your opinion? 

At the risk of, once again, sounding ignorant to you (and I’m not afraid of that), is it possible, in meditation, for one to take what they need and leave the rest?  Can I accept and enjoy the enhancements in physical, mental and emotional health without getting into the spiritual unfoldment and/or infinite consciousness part?

See, Frenzie here even thinks depression is an ordinary and legitimate result of the practice.

Quote from: ersi on 2014-07-05, 19:45:20

See, Frenzie here even thinks depression is an ordinary and legitimate result of the practice.

No, I do not. And not only because you keep misinterpreting the word.

You mean like some sweet-tooth fat lady who thinks to drop her weight down to a certain number and, once that is achieved, goes back to eating junk food and candy? Yes, it's possible to do so, but this means that none of the intended benefits of the discipline will be achieved.

Never took too much seriously this meditation thing.
Probably because of the association with all that pro oriental wanna be Buddhist like, so trendy these days amongst entire generations of western culture orphans and disorient people and to whom the first step seems to be... let's do meditation.

Ersi seems to value it very much... I don't know.

Not at all like this--what made you jump to such a silly and illogical conclusion from what I asked you?

The mindfulness meditation I use is distinct in that it is not directed toward getting me to be different from how I am already.

Read it again. Slowly if you must.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-07-02, 19:17:39

Once the experience subsides there is often a sense of depression

You know, like post-coital depression.

I could say "Case closed," but seriously, I don't consider Harris a good source for anything, so you can keep choosing your gospel and make of it whatever you wish.

#2: If it's not the standard psychological term, you failed to define it.

6. a. The condition of being depressed in spirits; dejection.

b. Psychol. Freq. a sign of psychiatric disorder or a component of various psychoses, with symptoms of misery, anguish, or guilt accompanied by headache, insomnia, etc.

#3: Re "No, I do not." I guess it's fair enough that you basically retract the statement that there should be often depression involved, which later morphed into "some form of depression" and now basically into something called depression but probably some different thing under the same name.

Once the experience subsides there is often a sense of depression