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Poll

Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to own, carry, & use Firearms to defend their own lives, & the lives of their family & friends?

Absolutely Yes!
I thinks so.
I don't think so.
Definitely No!
My name isn't String, so let me have a icy cold beer so I can ponder the options...
Topic: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens Own, Carry, & Use Firearms? (Read 335336 times)

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #350 –
[glow=black,2,300]Florida Gov. Scott Signs[/glow] [glow=blue,2,300]“Stand Your Ground” [/glow] [glow=black,2,300]Reform Law[/glow]


Quote from:      Truth About Guns          http://tinyurl.com/np8gu39       

The media coverage given to the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman case, and the attention paid to Florida’s “stand your ground” law, resulted in the legislature considering flaws in the law. They passed a reform bill that was signed by Governor Rick Scott yesterday, June, 20 2014. From tallahassee.com: “The legislation, which marks one of the most significant changes to the state’s self-defense laws since the 2012 killing of teenager Trayvon Martin, was one of nearly 60 bills signed by Scott on Friday.”..................continued


Having more choices in the pursuit of defending oneself is always a good thing.

Thank you Saint Trayvon, your death gives birth to this new & improved version
of [glow=blue,2,300]"Stand Your Ground" [/glow]............... a good law made even better.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #351 –
A military of a million, police forces with armoured cars, heavy guns everywhere what a dangerous country to live in. Must be if everyone needs a gun, machine gun or worse. Dear, oh dear.George Washington would be crying if he could see what has happened!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #352 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

A military of a million, police forces with armoured cars, heavy guns everywhere what a dangerous country to live in. Must be if everyone needs a gun, machine gun or worse. Dear, oh dear.George Washington would be crying if he could see what has happened!


Don't let the propaganda fool you. It may surprise you to learn that some of us live without guns, and we're not afraid of our own shadows. I manage to drive through some rough looking neighborhoods without an armored car or heavy machine guns. I have an idea you've been cherry-picking the news you get so the USA appears as bad as possible. Shootings on every street corner, Al Capone and his mob ruling Chicago and all that sort of thing. It ain't necessarily so, Joe.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #353 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
I have an idea you've been cherry-picking the news you get so the USA appears as bad as possible.

No need, the news does that for you. Business as usual isn't news.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #354 –
Well mjsmsprt40, I am not overdoing things nor cherry picking. The number of military armoured cars were tremendous and even being bought by police forces that did NOT have a crime epidemic.  Of course I am fully aware of the abhorrence of many Americans on the gun issue as they see it as a contradiction of values and much else. It is the big money men who really decide things not your political system and all sorts of excuses are brought out to justify - security always being the no 1 excuse. Throw in over 10,000 killings with guns and the neo-con mindset that is not happy until they have an arsenal of ridiculous proportions. From time to time I have seen the decent over there express great anger at the gun lobby and that gun lobby are a bunch of creeps but the trouble is my Chicago friend that the size of that gun neo-con lot is immense and takes some of your stance away.

No disrespect to you near city Chicago but it is hardly a good place to use to emphasise your point of view or on the dodgy districts you drive through. Just because you don't see the practical contradicts the crime epidemic that runs through the place and the police are now getting near unable to cope. Unfortunately you are stuck with the army of SmileyFazes my poor man and they make a mockery of the better things the country is meant to stand for.  So keep driving but don't stop!  :D
"Quit you like men:be strong"
 

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #355 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Don't let the propaganda fool you. It may surprise you to learn that some of us live without guns, and we're not afraid of our own shadows. I manage to drive through some rough looking neighborhoods without an armored car or heavy machine guns. I have an idea you've been cherry-picking the news you get so the USA appears as bad as possible. Shootings on every street corner, Al Capone and his mob ruling Chicago and all that sort of thing. It ain't necessarily so, Joe.
Yup. I'm sure most metropolitan areas do have cars like that for, shall we say special occasions. But most of the police cruisers around here amount to somewhat suped up Crown Victorias  and the newer ones are Dodge Chargers. The latter can look aggressive in some trims, but on other trim levels is just a full sized family car, hardly a war machine.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #356 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Don't let the propaganda fool you. It may surprise you to learn that some of us live without guns, and we're not afraid of our own shadows. I manage to drive through some rough looking neighborhoods without an armored car or heavy machine guns. I have an idea you've been cherry-picking the news you get so the USA appears as bad as possible. Shootings on every street corner, Al Capone and his mob ruling Chicago and all that sort of thing. It ain't necessarily so, Joe.
Yup. I'm sure most metropolitan areas do have cars like that for, shall we say special occasions. But most of the police cruisers around here amount to somewhat suped up Crown Victorias  and the newer ones are Dodge Chargers. The latter can look aggressive in some trims, but on other trim levels is just a full sized family car, hardly a war machine.


Here in wild, exciting Villa Park, one of our trustees has counseled the town against buying Dodge Chargers. Seems the cars just aren't that good, are more expensive to keep maintained and don't compare to Fords for the same job. We do have some older cruisers with over 100K miles on them, so replacement is coming up--- but this trustee, who happens to be an auto technician in his day job, is saying don't buy Chargers. Looking at the police lot--- nope, no heavy war machines. Just Ford Crown Vics and a couple of Chargers, bought apparently before this trustee counselled against them.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #357 –
What do you know about America?
Do you have access to Scottish television?

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #358 –
[glow=blue,2,300]Michigan: Youth Firearm Education Bill Takes Effect Today [/glow]


Quote from:      The NRA Institute for Legislative Action     http://www.nraila.org/legislation/state-legislation/2014/6/michigan-youth-firearm-education-bill-takes-effect-today.aspx?s=&st=&ps=       


...........Michigan Governor Rick Snyder (R) signed into law a bill that expands firearms safety training opportunities for Michigan youth. House Bill 5085, which took immediate effect as Public Act 201 of 2014, corrects an unduly burdensome restraint on youth firearm education by reasonably expanding the class of individuals who are allowed to supervise and instruct Michigan’s youth in the safe use of pistols.

"This new law makes it easier for young people to gain critical pistol safety training in a controlled environment," noted Chris W. Cox, Executive Director of the National Rifle Association Institute for Legislative Action. "In the past, family members, scout leaders and even firearms range instructors could not instruct youth unless a parent was physically present. In practical terms, this will mean more Boy Scouts can qualify for pistol shooting merit badges and grandparents will now be able enjoy a day at the range with their grandkids." .........,Continued


   Education is a good thing.....yes?

What do you think?.......

Are you   [glow=blue,2,300]FOR [/glow]      ~~OR~~     [glow=blue,2,300] AGAINST [/glow]   Firearms Education?     WHY??

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #359 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Here in wild, exciting Villa Park, one of our trustees has counseled the town against buying Dodge Chargers. Seems the cars just aren't that good, are more expensive to keep maintained and don't compare to Fords for the same job. We do have some older cruisers with over 100K miles on them, so replacement is coming up--- but this trustee, who happens to be an auto technician in his day job, is saying don't buy Chargers. Looking at the police lot--- nope, no heavy war machines. Just Ford Crown Vics and a couple of Chargers, bought apparently before this trustee counselled against them.
  I'm positive that the trustee's decision not to go with a tank is based on the fact tanks would be more difficult to maintain than either the Ford or the Dodge for s suburban police department  LV MetroPD should get their shiny new cruise missiles and few tactical nuclear missiles in soon. Mayor Goodman felt the ICBMs would blow the budget and might be overkill even for the roughest of neighborhoods and I can see her point.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #360 –
With armoured cars, police looking more like soldiers and indeed becoming bosom pals now Michigan wants to go further in the shhoting games. I dare say on so-called firearm safety they will now be able to shoot better at school. Yep, progress in the land of nut jobs and child mind gun slinger cowboys who haven't grown up.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #361 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
I dare say on so-called firearm safety they will now be able to shoot better at school.


No rj, they might just need to concentrate at taking out the kneecaps of sash wearing cranky old men in bowler hats.

With brilliant statements like that, I dare say Scottish Education might just have needed a bit of an overhaul 90 years ago, when rj was crawling around in nappies.

RJH = [glow=black,2,300]Against Firearm Safety Education[/glow]

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #362 –
I'm not sure where you get your ideas about American police, Howie.

Police car
Policeman on his motorcycle



Now it is true these exist....





But it doesn't look much different from the British ones:




Looks like the same basic car, a few differences in the details (side windows, paint job, etc.)  In either case, they're not for everyday law enforcement, but for when the police expect a shootout from the criminals. Even then, if it's a really special occasion. Even the Miller incident, the newspaper photos showed standard police cars on the scene when an armoured car might have been justifiable.

Oh, mjmsprt40, we do have newer Fords too. There are Explorers, which are widely known to be the vicious war machines in history. Presidents Bush and Obama should have sent Ford Explorers to Afghanistan and Iraq, because the terrorists would have taken one look at those monsters and surrendered :p

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #363 –
I had occasion to drive past the local police station today, as it happens. Fords predominate, there are a couple of Dodge Chargers, and maybe a couple of SUVs. No-not-any armor in that lot. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be that armor isn't too good for the kind of work most local police departments actually do? Setting up speed traps-- that's handled best by the Ford and Dodge crowd. SUVs, maybe they need to transport someone from the local lockup to County Jail-- otherwise, it doesn't seem to get much use. A heavy armored vehicle? Come on, RJ, you have to tell me what a suburban police department would do with that beyond using it in a parade. That purchase would never get through Village Hall, the trustees would have a field day shooting down the proposal.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #364 –
Most likely he just reads a bunch of anti-American crap like RT and sensationalist ragsheets like Daily Mail.   Villa Park might be small, but what about larger cities? Nope can't say I've actually seen a police armored car on the road, did see some civilian ones belonging to security companies transporting large amounts of money to and from banks though.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #365 –
I've never seen a police armoured car here either.

Come to think of it I've only once seen Police carrying a weapon although come to think of it, they were some sort of special force, not the normal Bobby.

Wouldn't it be nice if that was the norm in every country.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #366 –
Quote from: SmileyFaze on
...   Education is a good thing.....yes?

What do you think?.......


Gun education can indeed be fun for children. I've done it myself, being taught basic field craft and shooting with .22 and .303 bore rifles, not handguns.

You check out the wind and (briefly) estimate the distance, adjust the sights, line up the target with the V sight, try a ranging shot if you didn't do it before, re-adjust, then off you go. Simple and easy stuff. But a bit pointless really.

Oh, in case you're wondering, Telescopic sights are for wimps; V sights are for Men.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #367 –
Quote from: string on
Simple and easy stuff. But a bit pointless really.


In what way?



Quote from: string on
.......,Oh, in case you're wondering, Telescopic sights are for wimps; V sights are for Men.


I wasn't, but I do wonder how many times you (or any of your so called 'manly' shooters) could repetitively hit a 30cm target at 500 meters using basic "V Sights"?

At that range & greater, when the lives of many others depend on your repetitious accuracy, your girlie "V Sights" are totally useless.

The majority of my kill shots were taken on targets in excess of 500 meters --- mostly between 800-1000 meters. 

If I had missed, others (many others) would have died.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #368 –
Ypu do sometimes talk such mince Sanguinemoon. It is the US police that have a love affair with SWATS now armouted cars, dressed like the army and utterly ridiculous and well over the damn top. The place must be even worse if they need fleets of these vehicles . It is another corporate money spinner and guns and uniforms are big things in the land of child mindsets. Between all that police paramilitary police a million in the armed forces you lot over there are either a bunch of scared freaks or been brained into the usual excuse of "security." Add in the 200 million or whatever number of guns floating about and the place is ideal for the insecure, mental midgets and a breeding ground for the brainshrinkers. Why any country would want to cpy this nonsense is beyond reason and says an awful lot on the negative.

I can laugh but it isn't really funny.Someone tell the ex-colonists to grow up or help them Hollywood is fiction.  :devil: :rolleyes:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #369 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on
Most likely he just reads a bunch of anti-American crap like RT and sensationalist ragsheets like Daily Mail.   Villa Park might be small, but what about larger cities? Nope can't say I've actually seen a police armored car on the road, did see some civilian ones belonging to security companies transporting large amounts of money to and from banks though.

Well, the Netherlands has the following six arrestation teams: AT Noord-Oost Nederland / AT Midden Nederland / AT Noord-West Nederland / AT Midden-West / AT Zuid-Nederland / AT Zuid-West (Wikipedia).

Belgium has one central CGSU in Brussels and four more regionally located in other cities: POSA Gent, POSA Antwerpen, POSA Charleroi, POSA Luik (Wikipedia).

What it would mean to say that the US police is excessively armed is, for instance, a significantly higher number of SWAT teams or equivalents, not so much whether you've seen any armored cars on the street. ;)

Of course, what Russia Today doesn't mention is that police in Russia is probably at least equally excessively armed and brutal.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #370 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
It is another corporate money spinner and guns and uniforms are big things in the land of child mindsets.

Been living here for 77 years and have never seen police tanks or a policeman with a drawn gun. Hell, I've gone five years where I now live without seeing a police gun. I've known one person who owns a gun in my entire lifetime. This isn't the wild, wild West that you think it is.

Perhaps you've been watching too much BBC Two. Having said that, there are far too many gun deaths in this country. One has to go south of the U.S. or to some African countries to find worse.

Our gun laws are crazy.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #371 –
The phrase "gun control" only appears on the pro-gunners side, as far as I have seen. And it supports only their propaganda. It provides the conceptual connection from "regulation" to "gun control" and further to "they are taking our guns away!"

This is mere shrill and has no logical equivalent. Nobody seems to get from drivers licence regulation to "they are taking our cars away!" or from construction business regulations to "they are taking our homes away!" Nobody calls the licencing of drivers "car control" or the regulation of construction "house/home control". Exactly the same way and for the same reason, "gun control" is also wrong.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #372 –
I had to look it up, but yes, we do have Chicago police in heavily armored vehicles. It's not common-- if you get pulled over and given a ticket in Chicago, it's gonna be a blue-and-white Ford car as like as not. The SWAT team does have heavy stuff though, and the FBI office in Chicago can, if needed, lend some heavyweight support.

Some suburban police districts can field a heavyweight unit too. A standoff in Lockport ended with the arrest of a man after the SWAT team-- which I imagine may have been called from Joliet-- showed up and managed to convince the man to surrender

Sorry, RJH: As much fun as you're having with this, I can't say that every two-man police district has an armored surplus humvee and special weapons to set up speed traps. That's nice hate-America propaganda, but little else.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #373 –
Quote from: SmileyFaze on
Quote from: string on
Simple and easy stuff. But a bit pointless really.
In what way?
Quote from: string on
.......,Oh, in case you're wondering, Telescopic sights are for wimps; V sights are for Men.
I wasn't, but I do wonder how many times you (or any of your so called 'manly' shooters) could repetitively hit a 30cm target at 500 meters using basic "V Sights"?
At that range & greater, when the lives of many others depend on your repetitious accuracy, your girlie "V Sights" are totally useless.
The majority of my kill shots were taken on targets in excess of 500 meters --- mostly between 800-1000 meters.  If I had missed, others (many others) would have died.
I thought that would get you going SF  :D.

You ask “In what way”?

Well to answer that you need to know the context. I like many others at that time and of that age (teens), had military training at school, except it was not called military training it was a sort of compulsory extra-curriculum activity as part of what was called the CCF (Combined Cadet Force). That involved what I have already described followed by spells on further army activities, or navy or air force. After the basic army stuff was done, I opted for the air force.

The gun thing was a small part of that but considered essential. This was in the ‘50s when the country was at last getting over its WW2 war time footing.

The CCF was, essentially, a recruitment organisation for young people to join the forces. I didn’t see the point of the gun thing because I was not of an age where people were conscripted into the forces and I didn’t want to join anyway, let alone kill people, and from a civilian point of view, had not developed some form of defence paranoia since I did not live in a country where guns ran amok like you apparently do, from your descriptions of intruders and the necessity to accumulate some form of arsenal.

Hit the target at 500m? I really don’t recall what range we shot at; 300 yards certainly but I really can’t remember and don’t care. You shot, hit the target somewhere and then finished.

No great deal and not that difficult.

But it wasn't a religion.

Of course as the range gets bigger it become more technical and gadget dependent (as you say) and less of a human skill. Some people can hit a target from several hundred miles away nowadays and they don't need steely eyes and a Rambo attitude to do it. The use smart missiles and sometimes remote guidance.

As for my remark about wimps, actually apart from pulling your leg, I was not thinking of the military. I normally have great respect for the military and the courage they show in their unpleasant but normally necessary work (from a tactical viewpoint), give or take being aghast at Rambo attitudes outside of the War context. I was actually thinking of these sophisticated telescopically-sited rifles used for hunting where skill is supplanted by the sophistication of the weapon, rather than the skill of the hunter; a fetish masquerading as a sport.

Re: Gun Control - Should Ordinary Citizens be allowed to Own, Carry, & Use Firearms?

Reply #374 –
I am rather surprised this thread continues to go on.

Surely both sides covered most of the OP in the first 5 pages?  :sherlock: