The DnD Sanctuary

Recently a news item on the city was still in the shocking corner. Well over 700,000 citizens have no water. So nothing for drinking, washing, disposing of sewage. Apparently they cannot afford the cost and the city pulled the l=plug so to speak. Most of us have seen the rows of empty homes, ruins and now this. It is tragic in this modern day and age for this nightmare to show no sign of being dealt with - just get worse.  :worried:

One reason for not having any water might have to do with an environmental issue. The West end of Lake Erie suffered from an intense algae bloom this year, it cut water to a number of cities that depend on lake water as the algae created poisons in the water that the filtration systems couldn't entirely handle. I know Detroit doesn't get its water from Lake Erie, but it does get water from Lake St.Clair and the river that connects it to Lake Erie so it's entirely possible that it was suffering from the same algae problems.

Toledo, Ohio had to have water shipped in by truck because of this problem. It was actually pretty widespread on the West end of Lake Erie.

Ehmr..no offence mjsmsprt40 but you diverge into a corner that well doesn't apply in actuality. I pointed out that the 700,00 plus cannot afford to pay the City Council for a water supply so I did give an accurate point. The shambles that Detroit has become is something hard to put my mind round as is not something that would be recognised here but what is more important that in a modern day and age people in a civilised situation have to live like the Third World? One cannot help but feel for these poor folk having to live like that and is a crying shame. On top of that disaster for families are whole districts looking like bombed zones. Water is a basic need for life and living and that a city has this nightmare is a frightful and deploring matter.

I've been waiting for Smiley to weigh in on this. There's a reason why Detroit is as bad as it is, and it has to do with decades of the way it's been run.

Business was driven out of the city a long time ago by confiscatory taxing policies, by unions that did't know when to stop, and by a political environment that made Detroit the last place you'd want to start a new enterprise.

Today, here in Illinois we have a political environment shaping up that will eventually make first Chicago, then the entire state eventually look like Detroit does now. You can see it in the fact that moving vans are going the wrong way as far as building this state up is concerned. Where are they going? Indiana has billboards up, inviting people/businesses who are fed up with Illinois to move to Indiana, which is a lower-tax state. The Southern states look awfully attractive too. Springfield and Chicago can hardly wait to initiate ever more confiscatory taxes, and penalties which are really taxes in disguise, so it's only a matter of time until they tax this state into ruin.

Hey, quit spittin' on Detroit.......Their Baseball Team is in first place (my Yankees are way behind), so things ain't all that bad ..... Soon as some filters are fitted into the system, & leakage is stemmed, water should be more plentiful -- that is unless until the Progressive Left's Marxist Politico Machine tax the living hell out of every drop, then it's back to square one. The days of free water is way over. The water department says .... Can't pay ---  move away.

Politically, under Democrat control since 1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mayors_of_Detroit), Detroit's Socialistic Progressive policies eventually caused massive overall failure -- causing migration....... Detroit is (just living) living  proof.

The working middle class moved out, & the non-working, government dependent poor moved in.

Water is just one of the latest problems a dying Detroit has to deal with.

Business was driven out of the city a long time ago by confiscatory taxing policies

I'm not disagreeing with you completely, but the city never recovered from the near collapse of the auto industry in the late 1970's and early 80's. The tax policy may well have served as a disincentive for new business to locate there. Boiling it down to just one factor is a pundit's answer, For the city to recover, they need the complete picture. There's also the factor of corrupt mayors such as Kwame Kilpatrick, sentenced to prison for 28 years.

Under Democrat control since 1962, Detroit's Socialistic policies eventually caused massive overall failure ....... Detroit is living (just living) proof.

What's interesting about 2013's economic growth is that it breaks down more by region than by red state/blue state and tax policy. Despite the Republican bashing of California. it actually has a faster growth now than most of the Red southern states. The South Red states, for the most part, had poor economic performance.  Under conservative control for nearly their entire existence (if it was Dixiecrat or Republican) parts of that region are borderline third world.

What's interesting about 2013's economic growth is that it breaks down more by region than by red state/blue state and tax policy. Despite the Republican bashing of California. it actually has a faster growth now than most of the Red southern states. The South Red states, for the most part, had poor economic performance.  Under conservative control for nearly their entire existence (if it was Dixiecrat or Republican) parts of that region are borderline third world.

I'm sorry 'Coony, forgive me. I thought we were talkin' about lil ole Detroit.

I didn't know it was a national red-state vs blue-state. blossoming into world-wide, teetering on inter-galactic, all encompassing, universal economy, God save the Queen of Scots, thing .......

You're theorizing that Detroit's ills were brought on it by being ruled by Democrats. I merely pointed out that economic success doesn't seem to hinge on being ruled by either party. A city or state can dogmatically follow GOP policy straight into bankruptcy as easily Democratic policy.

You're theorizing that Detroit's ills were brought on it by being ruled by Democrats. I merely pointed out that economic success doesn't seem to hinge on being ruled by either party. A city or state can dogmatically follow GOP policy straight into bankruptcy as easily Democratic policy.

Flat out wrong when it comes down to The City of Detroit & Detroit ONLY, which is (or should be) the focus of this thread (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=498.msg27370#msg27370).

Fact: Detroit has been run by successive democrat regimes, & no one else, since 1962.

Fact: Those democrat regimes in the last 20 or so years put their Social Programs (Progressive Leftist Agendas) into gear, as well as insane tax policies in a vain attempt to pay for them ---- Other Peoples Money ---- causing a consistent outflow of tax payers -- sick & tired of the ever rising tax burdens being placed on their fewer numbers -- who were steadily replaced by Social Program users -- Government controlled & dependent lower class poor who were attracted to the plethora of those programs.  As time rolled on, less people to pay coupled with the influx of more who used but don't pay, caused a steady deterioration of all services & infrastructure. Detroit's downward spiral was inseparably connected to the democrat governments that controlled it's economic & social policy, & therefore it's future.

Fact in Conclusion: Detroit's problems were caused, & fueled by the democrat regimes (Socialists & Progressives) that controlled all the policies within the City of Detroit.

Those are  facts that can't be ignored or denied, regardless the trivial arguments to the contrary.

I pointed out that the 700,00 plus cannot afford to pay the City Council for a water supply so I did give an accurate point.

I find that strange... and they can pay for food? electricity? color tv? pay to banks? automobiles? they just don't have money for paying the water?
I don't know how much water costs there but unless in Sahara, water it's not the most expensive thing in the cost of life.

What number is 700,00? seven hundred? seven thousand hundred with less a zero?

Fact, you're ignoring all other factors. Here's a more balance assessment (http://www.urbanophile.com/2012/02/21/the-reasons-behind-detroits-decline-by-pete-saunders/) of Detroit's decline. Note some of the articles points Poor housing stock, A poor public realm, A downtown that was allowed to become weak, Freeway expansion (can destroy neighborhoods, I've even seen it Atlanta), Lack of/loss of a transit network, An industrial landscape that constrained the city’s core,  The article lists more points. Of course high taxes drive away business. this article (http://mic.com/articles/45563/detroit-bankrupt-to-see-detroit-s-decline-look-at-40-years-of-federal-policy) notes excessive regulation and NAFTA shifting automobile production out of the US, which especially hurts Detroit. To bring the city back you need to get beyond partisan talking points and screaming fonts to find out what's unique to Detroit. You get frustrated with for bringing up whole states brought to ruin and/or have little economic growth by Republican economics, but offer nothing but the same GOP talking point with zero analysis of why some Democratic cities/states prosper or falter or likewise for Republican areas.

Again, since your skull is 20% denser than lead, this isn't too say a city or county can charge excessive tax.  I'm saying there are other factors in play as well.

BTW, the cities have little to do with welfare programs. That's the state and federal government's job. Hence if the state tends to run by Republicans or Democrats is more meaningful in that regard.  That's why it's Nevada Division of Welfare & Supportive Services, not Las Vegas.....

Again, since your skull is 20% denser than lead................

Post reported......................................................¡ʇou   (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/firefart.gif)

I think we all just need to take a step back; you, me, and Oakdale. In this, I'm basically in agreement over excess taxes but think it's the only factor. The race riots of 1967, also didn't help (like riots in Ferguson don't make that city attractive, either and it won't be surprising to see middle class people fleeing and merchants reluctant to set up shop.) Liberals and conservatives alike have their favorite answers on any issue and those range from downright wrong to only part of the story. You could probably train chimpanzees to replace those "pundits" work and yet people read their tripe because it tells them what they want to hear.  That's only a problem with blogs, but "news" sites and stations are more about shaping opinion than factual news.

That being the case, people want hear a diatribe that taxes killed Detroit when it was incompetent, corrupt governance, etc.

Now Detroit does indeed have high taxes:

(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fobject.cato.org%2Fsites%2Fcato.org%2Ffiles%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Flincoln_edwards4.jpg&hash=5c40724cc441645f691926a0e3186643" rel="cached" data-hash="5c40724cc441645f691926a0e3186643" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/wp-content/uploads/lincoln_edwards4.jpg)

source (http://www.cato.org/blog/detroits-high-property-taxes)

But even the anti-tax article does note other factors.  Interestingly, it fails to note Detroit has a 2.5% income tax that you can get around by living in the suburbs.

But I were to open a business in Detroit, I would have to consider if the wages I would need to pay and the business I would get are likely to offset the tax burden (ie I would pay 50% more property tax in exchange for 100% more business and having to pay employees 20% less. But to make it even more complicated, would the crime rate and thus the insurance premiums and shrinkage due to theft make it unprofitable to operate there. That's just scratching the surface.) If the answer is "no" with enough businesses, you have a neighborhood or whole city in trouble.

Whether to blame it on Democrats or Republicans, or most likely both, the structure of taxation has been a factor in the US War on Cities. Low taxes, high taxes, I hope there is an agreement that the income thereof should go to where it would do the most good. Where the tax system is wilfully set up such that the taxing structures of a city are fragmented and usually at odds with each other, economic devastation will follow.

I think you kind of guessed right mjsmsprt40 waiting for something from Smiley and there is little disappointment at knowing what would come.

It is far too simple an excuse of the cumfy off like hin to say the working middle clas moved out and the welfare people moved in. Somehow he doesn't figure out that those in the lower level who maybe aren't so clever are in a equally different league. What makes his mouthings a bit of something else is that the population has fallen drastically and many of the worse poor lived there too. You throw in acres of empty streets, crumbling houses along with the heavy decline which shows a different story. In his mindset some 700,000 plus flooded in are a disgraceful fairy tale. They were recorded citizens remember who were obviously paying water rates, etc hence being cut off. It doesn't compliment anyone to sneer off at hundreds of thousands of poor people and ignore them. I find that very immoral and distasteful but he represents a deplorable side of the nation that regards all poverty as self inflicted when it is NOT. He can rubbish human being as much as he wants from his comfortable life but I think it is a disgrace and shocking indictment.

I am aware that there are other towns in critical situations but terribly, Detroit is top of the sad, sad list. I cannot help feel for so many peole for society just to write off as nothings.

.....I find that very immoral and distasteful but he represents a deplorable side of the nation that regards all poverty as self inflicted when it is NOT.....

I do not subscribe to the theory that all poverty is self-inflicted, not by a long shot.

That's a figment of your own corruptive imagination.

That said, much of the poverty is due to a lack of knowledge, a lack of desire, a lack of self-worth, & lack of self-esteem.

Oh, did I forget to mention unscrupulous politicians who promise the sun, the moon, & the stars to each & every one of them -- drawing them into their inescapable web of eternal government dependance, that cause people feel the ways I mentioned earlier.

The way out, realize it or not,  is within the reach of many to most, but unfortunately with politicians like Obama & his lot of Socialistic Progressives, who have never met a government social program they didn't like, the most vulnerable amongst us have been taught over & over to believe that government is the only answer to all their hungers, that government is the absolute source of all plenty, as opposed to economic & social answers attainable via their own inner drive, desire, & productive imaginations -- through their own entrepreneurship.

The Progressive Left has built themselves a mufti-generational class of government dependents, dependent on government for their every essential want & need, & all these politicians ask from this class of people as a mere token of their appreciation, is their vote to ensure the resources they promised them will continue endlessly.....using the fear of certain loss & hardship if that vote should happen to wane or wander.

I am so very sure that many of us have seen this with our very own eyes, & know it to be true, but rather than protest it, have come to accept it as an acceptable option in life. That these politicians have the distinct right to peddle their potions of poison unencumbered.

pssst..........I didn't use the word democrat once! See, it's not always about democrat or republican.

"That said, much of the poverty is due to a lack of knowledge, a lack of desire, a lack of self-worth, & lack of self-esteem."

Now what a load of codswallop. You are part of the physche that always bangs the drum about how great your country is, hand on heart, wave the flag. If so brilliant why then does that city have hundreds of thousands of what you describe in your answer? Then go right across the nation and their are other towns suffering, tens of millions on food stamps and you have the nerve to say what you do?? If we were daft enough to believe your stance one wonders how in Heaven's name you can explain the vast armies of unemployed, a hundred thousand a year dumped from their homes, camps of the unemployed apearing (even in Silicon Valley!) and so on.

I am more concerned for the deprived than you damn well are and you will find some waffle to accommodate your warped view of your own land. This is 2014 in a civilised country and leaving aside even the politics therre is much to be concerned about outside of the cumfy zone. One cannot help but feel for the 700,000 plus in that shambles of a city. No water no sewage, threat of disease, etc. This is modern times in a modern place not the Third World Smiley. Many of the people there have lived in the city for ages but you act as if it is an exception while the national numbers also tell something else. But in this case such a concentration in one place is terrible and I do feel for them a great deal having always been a communality activist. Try and be in this instance more sensible for Detroit and less humbug.

You seem to be so overwhelmingly consumed with big numbers RJ ....... The seem to scare you ..... try using percentages, they're smaller (less zeros for you to look at), & then you can compare them to other less populated places ..... say, like itty, bitty Scotland.  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hilander.gif)

2014 numbers......... USA = 6.1% Unemployed         Scotland = 6.4% Unemployed (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/smileys/no.png)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/smileys/faint.png)

Now, in raw numbers there are many more unemployed in the USA than in Scotland, so wut.....

Maybe 'cause we have a larger population, duh, but ole salt youse guys aint doin none too swift thar yaselves.... (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/taunt.gif)

6.4% ...... A bloody disgrace!!! (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/biglaugh023.gif)

It gets even more horrific  (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/satan003.gif)  if you look at the Scottish Welfare Fund .... now those numbers are really scarey! (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F9qQhpZS.png&hash=908f9821e88104efaad71c4397014d3a" rel="cached" data-hash="908f9821e88104efaad71c4397014d3a" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/9qQhpZS.png)  (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FDR8BNZA.png&hash=2a3c1d3dceb720329f84d864152049ee" rel="cached" data-hash="2a3c1d3dceb720329f84d864152049ee" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/DR8BNZA.png)

If our numbers make you sick, geeez Louiese.. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/Confusioln.gif)  ..sure you really wanna defend yours R.J. MacDudder? (https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FVETxNW1.png&hash=fd7f1117a4f4488b05c1958022732cee" rel="cached" data-hash="fd7f1117a4f4488b05c1958022732cee" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://i.imgur.com/VETxNW1.png)

Go fer it!!

You are trying to sidestep the matter Smiley so come on now. Over 700,000 people in one city ina modern and meant to be civilised nation?? I find it difficult to understand that as such could not happen here and you are having trouble in smaller towns too. Equally, over 700,000 in one State too is another negative. So your thinking is that over the whole country nearly three quarters of a million doesn't count? Don't find that in it's very self very Christian or even concerning outwith that. How sad that you use that kind of thinking. I can also remember that New York City once nearly went bankrupt so the problem is not new but it has got worse.  For the city of Detroit is is a disaster and you would think the country was as I said a Third World nation.

What you take as a stance is thought provoking and the answer? Sad, sad.

I think the possibility has to exist that Detroit is becoming a ghost town. Other towns have become ghost towns when there was no reason for the town to continue to exist-- the railroads had been built, the mines petered out, cattle-ranching found better ground elsewhere and so on. Detroit is merely one of the latest and certainly the biggest to become a has-been city. Part of the "rust belt", and the manufacturing which once drove the economy has headed either to the Southern states or overseas-- manufacturing is what drove Detroit's economy since the automotive era started.

The jobs left. Upper and middle-class people left. Poor people leave when they can. What is left is what once was. That's how ghost towns get made.

The possibility exists, but it is fairly low. Ghost towns are generally (small) towns. Cities die too, but it is fairly rare. Even after wars and genocide and disaster they spring up again, sometimes a little to the side of the old city. Geographic logic create cities rather than a single industry, though it can be a sensitive time when a city transitions. Sometimes that industry has peculiar needs, and there is no other industry to take over, or the human or natural geography changes.

Detroit has gone far down, but I believe the odds are in its favour. If not, maybe Grand Rapids or Windsor will be the new Detroit?

I came across this article about a possibly of a comeback.:
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/detroit-trying-to-make-a-comeback/

Dan Gilbert already had a fortune from founding the mortgage company Quicken Loans. Now he stands to make even more by buying office buildings on the cheap in Detroit's economically depressed downtown and convincing tenants to move into them to help the ailing city. It's working, he tells Bob Simon, and for anyone who would say he's a greedy capitalist, his answer is he is essentially doing a lot of good for a city that's seen a lot of bad.

The silver lining is a lot of cheap land for capitalists such Gilbert who wish to take chance. It seems to be working so far.

After three years, when Gilbert moved his company's headquarters to downtown, the billionaire has managed to lure 90 major tenants in addition to his own workers. Using more than a billion dollars of his own, he has revitalized the downtown, buying buildings as cheap as the cost of one year's rent for a similar space in New York, refurbishing and then renting them to the likes of Chrysler and Twitter.

I pulled this out of the CBS piece.
"Detroit trying to make a comeback
Developer buying real estate in a downtrodden Detroit says he is "doing well by doing good" in an effort to revitalize the city"

What the piece didn't mention is that everything that's being built on the riverfront is for very wealthy people who live in that area.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gearexpo.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fe63f9bbbbf8c95581dfed4537a9883f9.jpg&hash=206f1cf9898b49b052810ff0c5603bbe" rel="cached" data-hash="206f1cf9898b49b052810ff0c5603bbe" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.gearexpo.com/wp-content/uploads/e63f9bbbbf8c95581dfed4537a9883f9.jpg)
For the not-so-wealthy?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic4.businessinsider.com%2Fimage%2F51eea12269beddb25f000018-480%2Fdetroit-petoskey.png&hash=9333e171c88d64f62e1bd60ee65d4654" rel="cached" data-hash="9333e171c88d64f62e1bd60ee65d4654" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/51eea12269beddb25f000018-480/detroit-petoskey.png)
Nothing has changed in the neighborhood where my brother lives.

Well it was time that something was made an effort on but ast the same time it is probably still aminority prject in the general face of things in the lower neighbourhoods. Sad that a city should go the way it has and large numbers of people with not even a basic life thing like awater supply because they cannot afford it.

It's not as bad as it might look.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F1funny.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F11%2Fredneck-thanksgiving.bmp&hash=474f9667fe1701a27d58ccb713295ed7" rel="cached" data-hash="474f9667fe1701a27d58ccb713295ed7" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/redneck-thanksgiving.bmp)
But in Flint, Michigan, things are looking bleak. This is a bottle of Flint water.
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Frf%2Fimage_908w%2F2010-2019%2FWashingtonPost%2F2016%2F01%2F18%2FEditorial-Opinion%2FImages%2FFlint_Water-06ec1-1411.jpg&hash=b04c0c81a808d0e419b95a13a8fe5270" rel="cached" data-hash="b04c0c81a808d0e419b95a13a8fe5270" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/rf/image_908w/2010-2019/WashingtonPost/2016/01/18/Editorial-Opinion/Images/Flint_Water-06ec1-1411.jpg)

Yes I do know about Flint and that is not a very good advert for anyone. However at the same time Flint although badly done is a tiny place compared to a city such as Detroit with such widespread poverty and the lack of water for numbers in the six figures a sad disgrace.

It's a strange thing to assist to a Country that lets an entire city to die as if it was a natural thing to happen. Live and let die should be their motto.

At least here the entire country dies all together, it's called solidarity...  :lol:

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/79/7f/62/797f62e7c6576e80494da9ba52842a77.jpg)

Uh-oh.

Can Detroit get any worse?


There's always Glasgow.......  :left:

(Yawn, as a poor effort). Just think how this makes your country look Souther laddie. A would-be progressive modern democracy as it always boasts yet a bankrupt city, thousands homeless over 200,000 without regular drinking water and acres of street areas in bits. Mind you it is not the only place that has this happening but Detroit is certainly the worst and it is not a very impressive thing at all. More like something from a poor backward nation. And thrown the fact that it is essentially black who suffer but of course that is okay in the land of the free and home of the brave......

Detroit is cool again, headlines National Geographic

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/taking-back-detroit/see-detroit.html

The biggest secret? (not mentioned in that article) They've been actively everything that can't be saved, after which neighborhood committees turned the new open spaces into parks and such. I'd be curious to see how Detroit has changed since my last (and first) visit in '09.

I'd be curious to see how Detroit has changed since my last (and first) visit in '09.

It depends on where you look. If you look at the development of the downtown riverfront and shopping and restaurants, things are looking up. If you look in the heart of the city, places like where my brother lives, it's scary. I might have mentioned earlier that he used to carry a gun when he mowed his lawn. And somebody shot through his window.

The house where I grew up has been wonderfully cared for. The house next door is boarded up. One can buy such a house for $5,000.
(https://maps.googleapis.com/maps/api/streetview?sensor=false&channel=ldp-publicrecord&location=42.336803%2C-83.129257&size=623x414&client=gme-redfin&signature=fImtTNIuGRjIONb4PZ2nhqNN5jU=)

It depends on where you look. If you look at the development of the downtown riverfront and shopping and restaurants, things are looking up. If you look in the heart of the city, places like where my brother lives, it's scary. I might have mentioned earlier that he used to carry a gun when he mowed his lawn. And somebody shot through his window.

Right. And my main visit was actually to rich suburbs. What most stood out to me downtown was the incredible number of homeless people.

One can buy such a house for $5,000.

I think those are the kind of American houses that flyes with the winds...

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2016-03-19, 09:09:59

One can buy such a house for $5,000.

I think those are the kind of American houses that flyes with the winds...

They're the kinds of houses that exist in some older cities that have suffered severe decline. The history of Detroit's decline begins in the World War II period. Had there been no war, Detroit would be a much different city.

There are slums in many places in the world. The US isn't all that different. Perhaps you'll recognize the area where this video was taken.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enWci1hBELE[/video]

There are slums in many places in the world. The US isn't all that different. Perhaps you'll recognize the area where this video was taken.

Yes I do, it doesn't exist for many years, those people were relocated for social houses. You don't have bidonvilles these days. Course it will re-appear soon.

I suppose you can't notice that that's an old Brazilian video trying to say that Europe has... poverty. Later on the video presents an european map with several countries taxes of poverty, all of them higher than Portugal...

Anyway my point with your houses wasn't the poverty aspects but your building techniques that can't stand against strong winds.

Anyway my point with your houses wasn't the poverty aspects but your building techniques that can't stand against strong winds.

I've been supposing it was intentional. :left:

Anyway my point with your houses wasn't the poverty aspects but your building techniques that can't stand against strong winds.

¡Now I understand!

I looked for a favela in Portugal and was given that one. ¡Damned internet!
Is this better?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.jregiao-online.webnode.pt%2Fsystem_preview_detail_200005962-c53fcc6394%2Fcova%2520da%2520moura_006.JPG&hash=bd6cd6634c30ae561c657fc2f4866212" rel="cached" data-hash="bd6cd6634c30ae561c657fc2f4866212" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://files.jregiao-online.webnode.pt/system_preview_detail_200005962-c53fcc6394/cova%20da%20moura_006.JPG)

One cannot help but feel for the countless numbers of people who had to flee the city of Detroit and so many of those left in it in big numbers cannot even get access to a basic thing like water? This is not Third World territory and how can such a damn thing happen in a modern nation?? Wherever such happens in the advanced West is a disgrace and sad matter. Other cities there have had serious probs and it goes beyond routine discussion or argument points of view. Every time I watch an item or documentary about Detroit is saddens me more than the routine. The widespread chance to but homes at relatively speaking next to nothing, acres of decline and destruction, large numbers who are struggling and have not moved like so many others. You have to feel for people in such a scene and that it exists is in a simple term a disgrace. I do hope things in the long - and wider term do get positively better.

I looked for a favela in Portugal and was given that one. ¡Damned internet!

Well, the internet is right. Favela is not a portuguese word.
We use "bairro de lata" literally meaning neighbourhood (made) of thinfoil. Like French says bidon ville, city (made) of barrels.
Favela is "Brazilian" and means nothing per itself. Brazilians are good at inventing words with no meaning, saracuta, piriri, toporo and things like that.

Anyway my point with your houses wasn't the poverty aspects but your building techniques that can't stand against strong winds.

I'd like a specific case for analysis.

General building codes for this State require bracing to withstand shearing winds of up to 135mph. Or in other words an F2 pushing F3 tornado passing directly over your house without losing any structural integrity.

I'd like a specific case for analysis.

General building codes for this State require bracing to withstand shearing winds of up to 135mph. Or in other words an F2 pushing F3 tornado passing directly over your house without losing any structural integrity.

Specific cases are the constant images of (wood) houses in America being destroyed by winds everytime you have bad weather.

It's strange, 135mph it's a lot of km per hour, maybe the building codes are not respected, I don't know.

maybe the building codes are not respected, I don't know.

There's an argument to be had there. Small town inspectors, shotty craftsmanship, poor maintenance or bad decisions from the homeowner and age of the house can be factors but, for now, I feel this conversation needs to lean a bit towards how tornadoes work. (Modular homes are a concern too but even they require bracing and proper foundations, now, that help.)

The last tornado to cause the damage you speak of in my area was an F4 (+200mph-ish) seven or eight years ago. It'll be decades before that should happen again. I worked with a guy that built storm shelters some years back. And an above ground reinforced concrete structure, say 10x10(ft), that can withstand a +F4 will run ya north of $15k. I'm not sure how practical of a house budget (10x that size) is. Cost only goes up as the space increases. Now, you can get a prefab dug in shelter for less than $5k installed. So again, a hit to the practicality of making your whole house tornado proof.

But ok, they do fail... So why? The key is the shearing force.  The house is twisted due to pressure variance, not just pushed against. The roof is a fundamental part of the structural integrity of a wooden structure, so part of the bracing is preventing a corner of the roof from detaching under these forces. If it does you're now standing in a house of cards. Of course there's bracing in the walls and foundation mounts - blah blah. Not gonna bore you with building practice. You can amp up the wind resistance (as I assume they do out in the plains) at added cost. But at some point the smart man puts in a shelter and gets tornado insurance rather than prepare to come out unscathed from a 50 to 100 year event. 

One thing I've noticed is that tornadoes pass more to the north of us than they used to. Idk if that's a factor in what you're talking about or not?

We don't have wood made houses here. Old houses in the countryside are made of stone and newer houses are always build with a reinforced concrete structure, external and internal walls made of construction bricks put together with a strong  mix of cement and sand.
We also don't have tornados, strongest winds are around 120 kmh with 140-150 gusts.

It's possible we do over build a bit but there's no insurance against such a bad weather that destroys a house, it would be considered as a "natural catastrophe" and, as such, out of every insurance coverage. Better to have strong houses.

At Scandinavia they use to build a lot with wood but I don't know about the winds they have there.

internal walls made of construction bricks put together with a strong  mix of cement and sand.

'Mortar' is the word for cement and sand mix used with bricks... if you're interested.

But yea, may be a tad over built. You'll find century or older buildings built like this east of the Mississippi River on almost every Main St. They are very much still there, so nothing to be said about that.

Wood construction has changed a lot. I'm most familiar with post 1950's. Materials and processing really started to change mid 70's to early 80's. They used to use a peer and beam technique with less standardized construction. Homes were "heavier" and built from rough cut oak or hickory. Those woods are less common now. But still, that's exactly how you build a house to be tornado fodder. Galvanized nails weren't so common either so some of those houses today are held together by perhaps nothing more than providence. Nowadays we use lighter woods. Pine or spruce - not as hard, but more flexible.

On Mythbusters they've built wooden structures against Californian standards for testing with both earthquakes and heavy winds.

My Detroit family alerted me to the fact that there's a Detroit façade near me.

An American artist living in Europe made international headlines last month for moving an abandoned Detroit home to Europe and putting it on display at a major art fair.
   The project ignited a heated debate about whether it was a meaningful artistic statement that would draw attention to the city’s struggles or just another example of so-called ruin porn — the exploitation and glamorization of the city’s decay. But critical arguments and polemics at 10,000 feet are one thing. The reality on the ground is something else entirely.

[…]

Known as “The White House,” Mendoza’s project was one of the most-talked-about works on display in February at Art Rotterdam, before the house was shipped to its permanent home at the Verbeke Foundation, a privately owned but public exhibition site in Antwerp, Belgium. Mendoza — who was born in Pennsylvania but has lived in Europe for more than two decades — began looking for a house in America as a way of exploring his personal history. But once his friend Johnson suggested he expand his search to Detroit, the project became a parable about the decline of a once-thriving American city.

NB The Verbeke Foundation is located in East Flanders, not Antwerp.

On Mythbusters

I used to watch it in the early seasons but I just cannot follow that show. Spends way too much time on problems and still gets them wrong. It may of gotten better. I wouldn't know but that sounds like territory they aren't any good at.

I can remember an episode they "busted" the "myth" that pissing on an electric fence would shock you. Spent all episode pouring water thru pipes and measuring voltages and distances. All that stuff that seems to make sense... I could probably hold up a 10 dollar bill at a bonfire, solicit a volunteer, and get to keep my 10 bucks to prove that wrong. It's not even a myth. Just redneck fun.

http://www.livescience.com/38024-electrocute-by-peeing-urine-electricity.html (http://www.livescience.com/38024-electrocute-by-peeing-urine-electricity.html)
This older article references this episode after a man died from pissing on an electric rail. Grrr.

Not saying they don't get stuff right. Just that catching all the variables isn't something they do well.

Mythbusters is about methodology and entertainment. The results are perhaps the worst part of the show. Btw, they revisited that peeing thing and confirmed it. Iirc it's mostly about the distance, which is pretty logical. It's pretty hard to be electrocuted without an easy connection. Not impossible (e.g. lightning), but hard. :P

Mythbusters is about methodology and entertainment.

Fair enough. It's just that something called "livescience.com" represented this as fact. It is not. Moreover...

it's mostly about the distance

I disagree. Tho, it is the logical conclusion I'd expect from where they were going with it.

If the pipe walls had "rifling" (an internal swirling pattern), the fluid would rotate on it's way down. Rotation inhibits momentum exchange between the center and edges because of the Coriolis effect: a parcel of fluid moving outward will find itself moving inward at half a rotation later.

I can't for the life of me Google up anything right now to support what I'm about to say, that is as close as I got. But I was watching either a documentary or tech development channel on YouTube (for crowd funding projects) sometime back where they were using internal rifling of water pipes to produce better water effects for fountain shows. By rotating the water they could control the stream better, like shooting a bullet. Even creating arcs that flew thru the air without dispersing much.

It's not unreasonable to say nature figured this out long ago. Visually this even kinda checks out, I think. But I'm not gonna use any methodology to figure this out so really I'm just talking out of my... (haha. I'll let someone else finish that sentence.)  

It's not unreasonable to say nature figured this out long ago. Visually this even kinda checks out, I think. But I'm not gonna use any methodology to figure this out so really I'm just talking out of my... (haha. I'll let someone else finish that sentence.)

Speaking from personal experience, at the start it's a stream but by the time it approaches the ground it's more like drops. Never tried to pee on an electric fence though. :P

I don't know how I missed it, but Mr. Howie's claim that well over 700,000 citizens have no water is wrong. That's the population of the city in 2014. In 1950, the population of the city was 1,849,568. That decline is the result of a number of factors, one of which was the deindustrialization of the city, the other being the movement of Southerners from the deep South to fill defense jobs as auto production was cut during WWII. That move from the South's segregated towns and cities to an open city had profound consequences. I witnessed one of those consequences when the brother of a friend was stabbed in 1943 riots.

History is always more complicated than it appears in DnD discussions.

"The expansion of the auto industry nearly a century ago fueled a growth spurt that made Detroit the fourth largest city in the country. By 1950, the population peaked at almost 1.85 million as people moved to Detroit to work at the Big Three auto companies: Ford, General Motors and Chrysler. But it was at the height of this prosperity that the manufacturers began to restructure, and the risks of the city's reliance on a single industry became apparent, according to Thomas J. Sugrue's essay "Motor City: The Story of Detroit."
First, there was decentralization. Strikes, inspired by union negotiations and a refusal by blacks and whites to work side by side, were halting progress, according to "Detroit, Race and Uneven Development," co-written by Joe T. Darden. Factories were built in the suburbs and in neighboring states so that if there was a protest in one factory, work could still continue elsewhere. But as the factories spread out, so too did the job opportunities.
When the industry then experimented with automation, replacing assembly-line jobs with machinery, tens of thousands of jobs were lost. The industry shrank even more during the energy crisis in the 1970s and the economic recession in the 1980s. And foreign competition caused profits to plummet.
As auto jobs moved elsewhere and the region aged, Detroit’s labor costs — retiree health care costs, especially — increased substantially.
Though other cities experienced their own booms and busts, Detroit suffered more because it didn't diversify, said Kevin Boyle, a Detroit historian who has written extensively about his native city. Places such as Chicago and Pittsburgh relied on other areas – like banking or education – beyond the industries that started their success.
The auto industry "was like Silicon Valley in the 1980s," Mr. Boyle said. It was doing so well, he said, that Detroit officials didn’t see a need to do anything differently.
 
Tensions between the races have been high since the 1940s, when Southern blacks began moving to Detroit in search of work at automobile factories, said Mr. Boyle, the historian.
As the migration of blacks who swept into Detroit became especially intense, middle-class whites began moving to the newly built suburbs. But violent 1967 riots turned this stream into a torrent.
"It’s really hard to overstate how deep the fear was, on both sides of the color line," Mr. Boyle said.
And after the riots, Detroit failed to bounce back, Mr. Boyle said. Businesses followed their customers. Thousands of houses were abandoned as the city’s population plunged.
"In some cities like Chicago, Boston and maybe New York, people say to themselves, 'I want to be in this neighborhood where I grew up, where my grandparents live or where my synagogue is' — that really roots people in place," he said. "Detroit didn't work that way."
During the 1950s, the city lost 363,000 white residents while it gained 182,000 black residents. In 1950, the population was 16 percent black, and by the time of the 1967 riot it had grown to a third. Today, about 82 percent of the city's population is black."

Accept a wrong figure while I must say that there are is still a disturbing number of people without water and even more staggering the number of commercial companies with a problem now too. It is a shocking thing in a non-Third World country for such a situation to be occurring and one cannot but feel a sadness for those suffering.

It is a shocking thing in a non-Third World country for such a situation to be occurring and one cannot but feel a sadness for those suffering.

Couldn't agree more.
22º and sunny here this morning. Glasgow? 11º and wet! I'd rather be in Tennessee.
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Aye but we are hardy folk here new southern man.

Aye but we are hardy folk here new southern man.

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• (https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?topic=498.msg53784#)

Well, Detroit just got 10 inches of snow. Beat that.

I can. There's me.

On a more definitive and practical note how can the very terrible and sad shambles of Detroit happen in what is meant to be a grown up and political experienced country??

They have a "wider" democracy…! :) Simple answers for simple people, RJ.

Dear satirical hopeful you ill never catch up on the rest of us outside nutjobland. There have also been other places in the ex-colonial corner who have been bankrupt. Dear, oh dear.  :P

There have also been other places in the ex-colonial corner who have been bankrupt.

How many of them had a long tradition of Democrat control? :)

Ah-ha, a very good question there Oakdale and good for you!

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-12-15, 17:32:38

There have also been other places in the ex-colonial corner who have been bankrupt.

How many of them had a long tradition of Democrat control? :)
[/quote

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-12-16, 01:36:24

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-12-15, 17:32:38

There have also been other places in the ex-colonial corner who have been bankrupt.

How many of them had a long tradition of Democrat control? :)

and how many depressed states been under GOP controll for decades. It isn't the party; it's the people in charge. For instance, many of our best cities.   Are highly democratic.

Sang, they're not highly "democratic" — they're highly Democratic! :) The people in charge are the problem… They believe things that aren't so. But they love power and money so much that they never "look under the hood".
When the engine seizes, they think they can just call AAA. But if they've already killed the first "A" that may not help them much.

This is one of the dumbest GOP memes of all time, based on a few cities. There's not much of correlation, let alone evidence of causation, of a city or region being prosperous or depressed based on the party in charge. In fact, some of the most prosperous cities in the country are Democratic and some depressed ones are republican. If it was simply party in charge. Maybe I'm wrong, perhaps it is the Republicans that gave Mississippi (https://ballotpedia.org/Mississippi_state_profile) a horrific 22.6 percent poverty rate and a low household income. Or are you willing to grow a brain and understand there's a lot more factors than the party rules?

some depressed ones are republican

Care to name names? :)
The Democrat style of governing has predictable results. (That's "predictable" in the sense of foretelling the future… Not like making a guess that jibes with you biases.) Higher taxes, failing services, dwindling tax base.

So I take you can't answer why some of the most prosperous cities in America, host to some of the most admired companies in the world are headed by Democrats. Neither can you answer why the entire states mired in poverty are controlled by Republicans.  Out of the top 100 cities in the country, 67 are headed by Democrats and  27 are by Republicans.  The remainder are independents (such as Las Vegas) and have unknown party affiliations (including a non-partisan mayor's office.)  Get it? Slightly more than 2/3 of America's large cities are run by Democrats, so automatically this means the poor large cities are run by that party. This also means that most of the prosperous ones are run by Democrats. But why is that we have Red states with poverty exceeding 20% of the population? Entire states, not just troubled post-industrial cities in the Midwest.

You wanted cities names?  Mobile Alabama, with a poverty rate ~30%. Red states are full of this. Nearly all of Appalachia has been run by Republicans and has been mired in poverty for decades? Why haven't the Republican leaders there did anything about it? I'm sure Detroit has had incompetent Democratic leadership. But entire regions of the country have suffered similarly under incompetent Republican leadership.

The old hoary thing about the tens of millions on food stamps showing a considerable poverty is a sad thing so why is that so wide under the big two?

For much the same reason Scotland's poor can only multiply, divide and subtract; but not add. :)

Cities need to adapt or die, Detroit have had difficulties with the former and barely staved off the latter. It would not have been an easy transition in any case, but the US urban problems have been in good parts self-inflicted wounds. A city is a living entity, but the US has allowed economic gerrymandering on a metropolitan level, letting wealthy suburban parasites wall themselves off in tax-heaven ghettos, strangling the rest of the city of resources, to let it fall in the hands of loan sharks.

And it seems simple minded to blame all on the party in charge. Detroit lost the auto industry, Appalachia is losing the coal mines. The former is run by Democrats and the later by Republicans and they're both facing the same problems, except a small county in West Virginia isn't as noticeable on the national level as Detroit.

Appalachia is losing the coal mines.

Might that have something to do with the federal government's EPA…?
Dems "do 'em in" every which way they can. When they can't gain local control, there's always the last resorts: The federal government — and the courts, if the executive branch is stymied.

Well we only grow in numbers Oakdale due to bleeding immigrants. Anyway.

The matter of lost industry in America can have examples in both the giant parties which have carved up the country to degrees.  My everlasting point about the massive numbers who are at the bottom apply to both political giants and as long as that situation continues they are going to be a permanent sadness and disgrace. So many decent people in their tens of millions........

due to bleeding immigrant

Heal their wounds, when you can — where they were wounded, their home regions.

Your idea of "massive numbers" is less than 1%… But you don't apply the same standards to your country. (I know you're "math-challenged" but you're also inarticulate and illiterate… So, what's your problem? :) Derangement.)

So many silly fallacious arguments from you — all to the same point: The U.S. is bad, because it's done some of the same things we did!
I still think it's envy, RJ!

hyah, ha. Only 1% is the excuse and in hard terms 43 million people?? Just as well you don't have a Welfare State it would cost too much and the corporate military industry for a great one would be kicking up hell.

in hard terms 43 million people

Is that how you evaded the various slaughters in India and China? (Granted, in India, the British influence was mostly good — despite the millions killed. And Hong Kong was a marvel of liberal -in the best sense- government, that came from Britain.) Put away your petty peeves, RJ. They're unbecoming and transparently xenophobic…

Might that have something to do with the federal government's EPA...?

Somewhat. But the bigger issue is mechanization of the mines and the fact that other technolgies such as cheaper, clear natural gas are replacing coal. But you lacked the cognitive ability to read the article that I offered showing the poverty in those regions going back centuries (even before the EPA! :gasp: )

So: It's the Republican's fault, after all? :) You're incoherent, Sang! But that's nothing new…

WTF are you talking about? I'm talking about technology changes and you're making it partisan issue. Are you drunk or just unable see past Democrats and Republicans? Is it hard to understand there are incompetent Republicans and Democrats? The Democrats in Detroit failed to transition their city's economy to something profitable besides automobile assembly. In Appalachia, the Republicans similarly failed address the loss of coal jobs to mechanization and fall of the coal market. What frustrates me about you is that you're actually smart enough to know this, but insist on reading jackassary about poverty in Democratic cities (with the blogs lying by omission about why some of the most successful cities in the country are also Democratic and ignoring poverty in Republican controlled areas...) None if this is hard if you would just stop poisoning your mind with those blogs of yours.

What I think is very directly sad is when you actually see the physical state of much of Detroit away from the city centre. Street after street empty, houses falling apart or some selling for small sums. The last time I seen a documentary about the city what flabbergasted me was the large number of people who had no drinking water. How can this happen in a modern country?

The entire country will turn much worse than Detroit.
To defend protecionism and isolacionism when the country survived destruction by imposing globalism? the Trump is an idiot.

The Democrats in Detroit failed to transition their city's economy to something profitable besides automobile assembly. In Appalachia, the Republicans similarly failed address the loss of coal jobs to mechanization and fall of the coal market.

A big part of the problem is what you mention: The political mechanism of the city of Detroit "failed to transition"… The part that you ignore is that the Federal Government actively attempted to destroy the coal industry…

But that's what you do: You posit your politics as unassailable, virtuous — no matter what the results, when you win.

Guess what? You lost a lot recently. Are Feinstein, Pelosi, Schumer and Weiner going to run for the presidency in 2020? Biden might; he's your best hope, it seems to me… :)

Detroit -with government approval- decided that the Japanese auto manufactures couldn't compete with "us" — while making sure that American auto manufacturers had to meet CAFE standards that made no sense.
(The Japanese manufacturers didn't care that they made no sense: They met them.)
Detroit's unionized work-force demanded and got their raises and pensions. And assured that the Japanese manufacturers would win…
But, of course, more Americans dead on the highway is a small price to pay for a well-thought out federal policy!

That's pretty much how Detroit went under: Democrats thinking that they know best, and should be given the power to implement their presumptive prowess. Federal and state and local government, supporting… Hm! What did they support?

Now, you're having a hard time understanding that whatever it was they supported that the people mostly no longer do?

"Biden might; he's your best hope, it seems to me... :)"
You're hoping for a second term for Trump, aren't you?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emofaces.nl%2Fpng%2F200%2Fsmilies%2Fkidsdrawing.png&hash=1b798f4559db9f6c5529e1b49340c83e" rel="cached" data-hash="1b798f4559db9f6c5529e1b49340c83e" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.emofaces.nl/png/200/smilies/kidsdrawing.png)
"A big part of the problem is what you mention: The political mechanism of the city of Detroit "failed to transition."

The joy of being a DnD "expert" is that one doesn't have to devise programs that will pass muster and 𝒘𝒐𝒓𝒌. It's enough to make up shit and cast for the uncatchable fish while yelling 𝙄 𝙘𝙖𝙪𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙝𝙞𝙢, 𝙄 𝙘𝙖𝙪𝙜𝙝𝙩 𝙝𝙞𝙢❗

You're hoping for a second term for Trump, aren't you?

If he does well in his first term, yes.
If he doesn't, well, I was always for Cruz… :)

(I'd bet I can code better than you, Mr. Tennessee! Specially if we're constrained to 8-bit iron! But I'd be willing to compromise: How about we compete on a PDP-7? Or an 11?)

(I'd bet I can code better than you, Mr. Tennessee! Specially if we're constrained to 8-bit iron! But I'd be willing to compromise: How about we compete on a PDP-7? Or an 11?)

You're drinking again, aren't you?
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fmedia4.giphy.com%2Fmedia%2FtxZYqb8B52qTC%2F200w.gif&hash=749c685d5bfa0dcd18d3753f56c04e12" rel="cached" data-hash="749c685d5bfa0dcd18d3753f56c04e12" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://media4.giphy.com/media/txZYqb8B52qTC/200w.gif)
Or...
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/TGRatKPNGnNQs/200w.gif)

He has to fall back on booze as people with grey cells give a polite smile, sigh and walk away.

..




Source:      THE DETROIT NEWS (http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2017/03/13/trump-set-visit-detroit-area-auto-related-event/99111438/)     

Washington — The White House said President Donald J. Trump on Wednesday will visit the Detroit area, where he will talk up his priorities of bolstering the manufacturing industry and taming the outsourcing of American jobs.

Trump is expected to visit visit the American Center for Mobility at Willow Run in Ypsilanti Township around mid-day to announce the reopening of the mid-term review of fuel economy standards, according to two sources familiar with the plans. Chief executives from major automakers are expected to attend, the sources said.

The American Center for Mobility, a nonprofit testing site for future connected and self-driving vehicles, sits on a 355-acre Willow Run site.

The White House did not immediately confirm the details on the location.

Under Trump, the Environmental Protection Agency and U.S. Department of Transportation are expected to reopen the review of greenhouse gas emission standards that require automakers to produce car and truck fleets averaging more than 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025.

The fuel-economy standards were supposed to be reviewed in 2018 but in its last days the Obama administration EPA pushed through portions of the regulations before Trump took office.

The Auto Alliance, a trade group which represents automakers including Detroit’s Big Three, has said this “unnecessarily politicized” the midterm review of the emission standards by moving to finalize the regulations ahead of schedule.

The automakers argued that, under the stringent targets locked under Obama, the industry would have to spend $200 billion between 2012 and 2025 to comply.

In what will be his first visit to Michigan since taking office, Trump is expected to meet with representatives of the auto companies, suppliers and unions, including a rally with workers, said a senior administration official who exclusively briefed The Detroit News.

“This is a continuation of a dialogue with the auto industry leaders, and also going back and reconnecting with a lot of the people who elected him,” said Chris Liddell, former chief financial officer of General Motors Co. who is now assistant to the president for strategic initiatives at the White House.

Trump was last in Michigan on Dec. 9, when he visited the Grand Rapids area for a rally as part of his “thank you” tour of states that helped him win the presidential election. The former New York businessman won the state by 10,704 votes, helping Republicans take the state for the first time since 1988.

Wednesday’s visit will be Trump’s first to Michigan since taking office. Gov. Rick Snyder said Monday it’ll be a great opportunity to highlight the state's progress with intelligent and autonomous vehicles and the importance to Michigan of the North American Free Trade Agreement -- which the president has criticized and wants to be renegotiated.

The governor did not say if he will be attending any talks with Trump. Snyder’s staff said after a Monday news conference in Detroit that those details are still being worked out.

Trump’s return to Michigan underscores his focus on the auto industry, which he has publicly pressured to move manufacturing jobs and plants back to the states.

During his first week in office, Trump met privately with chief executives of Ford Motor Co., GM and Fiat Chrysler Automobiles NV at the White House. GM CEO and Chairman Mary Barra is part of an economic policy group advising the president, and Ford President and CEO Mark Fields sits on a manufacturing council advising him.

Trump has singled out Ford and GM for making cars in Mexico and importing them into the United States. During his campaign, he vowed to renegotiate the North American Free Trade Agreement with Canada and Mexico or, if unsuccessful, slap a tariff as high as 35 percent on autos and other products made in Mexico.

After slamming Ford for months for planning a new factory in Mexico, the president praised the Dearborn automaker when it scrapped the idea – even though Ford insisted the decision was not prompted by Trump's criticism.

“Since my election, Ford, Fiat-Chrysler, General Motors, Sprint, Softbank, Lockheed, Intel, Wal-Mart, and many others, have announced that they will invest billions of dollars in the United States and will create tens of thousands of new American jobs.” .....continued

Under President Trump, there will be new sweeping incentives for large businesses to return American Industry back to America, especially to places like Detroit, & with them bring back the jobs that belong in America, & not in Third World Countries like Mexico, Malaysia, & Thailand .... just to name three.




..

Well I hope that your President unlike the ones before him will take on the challenge of Detroit which is a crying and damn shame. Street after street of empty houses large numbers with no running water and so on. It is a bad image and it is time that the challenge is directly looked at. That Trump is going there is a new positive thing.