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Topic: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood? (Read 78648 times)

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #125 –
Quote from: Belfrager on


Nice way of diverging attentions from those responsible for the creation of the "Islamic State".


True, I added this link for effect, or should I say circus, more than for insights.

The ones responsible for the creation of ISIL are the ones that actually created ISIL, several of whom are still alive. While I am as willing to argue for cause and effect as much as the next posters, saying that the US (because I don't think you mean Germany or the Glaswegians) is responsible for Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIL is just lazy.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #126 –
Quote from: jax on

The ones responsible for the creation of ISIL are the ones that actually created ISIL, several of whom are still alive. While I am as willing to argue for cause and effect as much as the next posters, saying that the US (because I don't think you mean Germany or the Glaswegians) is responsible for Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIL is just lazy.

And not arguing for your case at all is oh so diligent?

Edit: By the way, I don't think even the Glaswegians here are saying US *directly* created IS. The responsibility is indirect, but it's there. Like when you a break a riverdam and the towns downstream are flooded, you can perhaps say you did not kill the townspeople, but you cannot legitimately say you have no responsibility for the outcome at all.

Now let's see you call this reasoning lazy or the analogy inapplicable.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #127 –
I'd split Belfrager in half. To "diverging attentions" I plead no contest, I did it, Daily Mail did it, and ISIL did it, for very different purposes. ISIL does use the graven image injunction for maximum value ("Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth").

However I maintain that the other half, "from those responsible for the creation" is lazy scapegoating. USA didn't create the Taliban (arguably neither did Pakistan), nor Al Queda, nor ISIL. It would be convenient for many if it was true, but convenience is not an argument.

We could probably agree that the US failed to destroy ISIL, and that the US set up an environment where groups like ISIL could thrive. The Cold War between Iran and Saudi Arabia became a bit warmer when US policies indirectly strengthened Iran. Iran and US blunders made Iraq ungovernable, no hard feelings but Iran knew they would be next. The US fought the precursors to ISIL and trounced them, but al Nusra et als were more important and ISIL trounced back.

ISIL is a more convenient enemy, but that doesn't make it a made enemy.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #128 –
Quote from: jax on
I'd split Belfrager in half.

Even so, it doesn't makes things easier for you... :)
The men behind the Islamic State success are no more no less than the Sunite elite loyal to Saddam Hussein. We are assisting to another US "victory".
Isn't revenge a dish better served cold?
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #129 –
US "victories" are usually followed by a place in a mess and all hell let loose.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #130 –
And those of others…? Go ahead: Feel free to name a few, RJ, you silly git! :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #131 –
Quote from: jax on

While I am as willing to argue for cause and effect as much as the next posters, saying that the US (because I don't think you mean Germany or the Glaswegians) is responsible for Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIL is just lazy.

On the other hand turning a blind eye at the role the USA has, is dishonest to say the least.

Blow up Iraq, then Libya, set a light for a civil war in Syria and you get the power vacuum with all its consequences we are witnessing now.
Reshaping the Middle East (and lately Africa) in accordance with US geostrategic interests doesn't come without any cost.
However, the prize isn't payed neither by the USA nor by its Western allies. ...

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #133 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: jax on
I'd split Belfrager in half.

Even so, it doesn't makes things easier for you... :)
The men behind the Islamic State success are no more no less than the Sunite elite loyal to Saddam Hussein. We are assisting to another US "victory".
Isn't revenge a dish better served cold?


Ah, I misread you to claim a more direct responsibility than mere failure in planning and execution. In that case I agree with you, the toppling of Saddam Hussein didn't end up very swell. And neither would the utter destruction of ISIL bring peace and prosperity (then again there would be none if ISIL is not destroyed). The very maneuvering for a post-ISIL world gives ISIL room to maneuver.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #134 –
Good news. Internecine conflict will be good for the West.

Quote
The Taliban Tuesday warned the leader of the Islamic State group against waging a parallel insurgency in Afghanistan, after a string of defections and reported clashes with militants loyal to IS.

The Middle Eastern group, also known by its Arabic acronym Daesh, has never formally acknowledged having a presence in Afghanistan but fears are growing that the group is making inroads in the country.
In a letter addressed to IS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Taliban insisted that "jihad (holy war) against the Americans and their allies must be conducted under one flag and one leadership".
"The Islamic Emirate (Taliban) does not consider the multiplicity of jihadi ranks beneficial either for jihad or for Muslims," said the letter signed by the Taliban deputy leader Mullah Akhtar Mohammad Mansoor.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #135 –
Quote from: jax on
the toppling of Saddam Hussein didn't end up very swell.
Appointing the worst Proconsul in history to oversee the governance of a defeated foe was hardly just "not very swell" — it was a F***-up of colossal proportions. (Disbanding the Iraqi Army did more to destabilize the country than Saddam's release of criminals prior to our invasion; it essentially turned trained soldiers into brigands.)
But, worse, since then has been our treatment of Mubarak of Egypt and Qaddafi of Libya… It now no longer matters if we are competent; we are not trustworthy!

Obama's work towards rehabilitating the "reputation" of America will likely take many decades to undo.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #136 –
Yes, that was a most unfortunate decision with foreseeable consequences. The invasion could have succeeded in many of its goals and didn't. That mattered for an alphabetical neighbour who quite reasonably assumed they would be next. Whether hubris or carelessness, the number and capabilities of actors wanting the Americans to fail exceeded the ones wanting the mission accomplished. The coalition of the unwilling was a great success, at the cost of a country, two with Syria.

America has never been trustworthy, at least not in my lifetime. It has been consistent, not a hobgoblin of great diplomacy, but any partner can at any moment be sacrificed to expediency. That's how Saddam Hussein turned into an enemy, though he wasn't a friend to begin with.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #137 –
Well, we're moving out of Middle East meddling and into meddling in the Pacific where China has been busy building islands. It never ends.

Quote
BEIJING — By declaring Tuesday that it would soon complete its contentious program of building artificial islands in the South China Sea, Beijing hopes to diminish tensions with the United States while reassuring its home audience that it has delivered on its pledge to resist American military pressure, experts said.

Leaders from the United States and China are set to meet next week in Washington at a major annual conference, the Strategic and Economic Dialogue. A topic of the talks there is expected to be the Obama administration’s opposition to China’s building in the disputed waters, including the construction of a runway capable of handling military aircraft.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #138 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on
Leaders from the United States and China are set to meet next week in Washington at a major annual conference, the Strategic and Economic Dialogue.
The United States has leaders…? Who would you name?
I might want to talk to them…
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #139 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on
Leaders from the United States and China are set to meet next week in Washington at a major annual conference, the Strategic and Economic Dialogue.
The United States has leaders…? Who would you name?
I might want to talk to them…


What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #140 –
Ask Rj, but the short answer is that they're all billionaires.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #142 –
Quote from: krake on
Really? Where did you got this from?   :left:


From here. See, I told you so. Now, let's see what Obama says.
Quote
WASHINGTON—The nation’s top defense officials left open the possibility on Wednesday that the U.S. military may play a more active role in the fight against Islamic State extremists, by joining Iraqi forces on the front lines to help direct airstrikes.

Defense Secretary Ash Carter and Gen. Martin Dempsey, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that they might support the higher-risk role for U.S. troops in Iraq, a move that has been under discussion but that President Barack Obama has so far resisted.

Gen. Dempsey told lawmakers that he sees value in helping Iraqi forces when they go on the offensive to retake key targets, including oil refineries and major cities, including Mosul, which Islamic State forces have controlled for more than a year.
............................
“Putting U.S. forces on the ground as a substitute for local forces will not produce enduring results,” Mr. Carter told the House Armed Services Committee. “I would not recommend that we put U.S. forces in harm’s way simply to stiffen the spine of local forces.”

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #143 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on

From here. See, I told you so.

Are you joking? :)
This should be the proof for moving out of Middle East meddling?

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #144 –
Quote from: krake on
This should be the proof for moving out of Middle East meddling?

I couldn't agree more. Sadly, I'm never consulted.

There's a long history in the U.S. of avoiding foreign entanglements, but it's ignored by too many people in power. Roosevelt had to wriggle us into WWII. Germany's been through that more than once and has finally escaped. Good for Germany.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #145 –
So Turkey just attacked the Syrian Kurds, so by the logic of my enemy's enemy NATO Turkey is now an ISIL ally. Then again, so is the US.

Kurdish leader decries Turkey's 'safe zone' plan in Syria

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #146 –
Quote from: jax on

NATO Turkey is now an ISIL ally. Then again, so is the US.

And so are the Saudis and Israel.
Just in case someone still wonders how some lunatics on Tojota pickups manage to wage war and expand...
At the end they will get blast too but for now they are still useful idiots for the geostrategic plans of the hegemon, namely for reshaping the Middle East (and Africa). Wonder how the new map of the reshaped Middle East will look like.
As for the Kurds, after being an useful tool in the Iraq war, they get betrayed once again.

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #147 –
Quote from: krake on
At the end they will get blast too but for now they are still useful idiots for the geostrategic plans of the hegemon, namely for reshaping the Middle East (and Africa). Wonder how the new map of the reshaped Middle East will look like.

So… the "hegemon" has been reshaping the Middle East for over a century. Methinks the grand evil plan is a bit lacking in execution, or perhaps simply absent. :P (Unless it's simply to keep the region in a constant state of turmoil. I find that far more plausible, as far as proof of the existence of evil plans goes.)

Re: What's going on in the Caliphate, and the affected neighbourhood?

Reply #149 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

So… the "hegemon" has been reshaping the Middle East for over a century. Methinks the grand evil plan is a bit lacking in execution, or perhaps simply absent. :P

In case you missed it, the hegemon has changed during the last century. :P
Setting on fire Iraq, setting on fire Syria, setting on fire Libya - just some achievments of the new hegemon.
The old hegemon like the new one, both were driven only by 'good intentions'... The road to hell is paved with good intentions. :)