Poll
Question:
In the Long Term Is Multiculturalism Divisive or Unifying to Society & the National Identity?
Option 1: Divisive
Option 2: Unifying
Option 3: Gimmie a freekin' beer, I'd rather get wasted than strain me brain!
Some may say, in order for the National Identity to survive, [glow=blue,2,300]Cultural Assimilation [/glow] is extremely important -- mandatory, but unforced, gradual but eventual through education, civic & community support -- whereas immigrants are made to feel welcome, all the while being educated to understand that they must eventually blend into the society of their new homeland, & not form their own unique societies in order to retain their cultural identities as a central theme & core.
Others may say that [glow=blue,2,300]Multiculturalism [/glow] the most important defining factor in a Nation's International Identity. New immigrants must be made to feel comfortable in their new chosen land, & in order to feel that way they must be permitted to stay together forming their own Societal identity, together with those alike themselves, within the new land.
In the end. it's the new immigrants that have a decision to make.
Do they feel that retaining their individual Cultural Identity is more important than becoming part of the New Host Society, & accepting a new way of life?
If so, they should strongly consider living elsewhere.
If not, they are welcome to become part of the accepting & welcoming society they have just chosen.
Should new immigrants eventually become one with society via a 'melting pot', as opposed to expressing & retaining individuality through the cultural tapestries of Multiculturalism?
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/hmm.gif) Is Multiculturalism divisive or unifying?
Does Cultural Assimilation strengthen or weaken a Nation's Society?
What do you think, based on your own personal experiences or what you've seen over time? (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/imthinkin6.gif)
There is usually a third alternative posited in the middle, integration. Migration policy is important, but over time they don't change the fundamentals, which to me are simple:
- The world is getting richer overall
- Travel is getting cheaper in real terms, in time, money, and convenience (the word to travel used to mean to suffer, as in travail)
Both trends are likely to continue unabated. The consequences are obvious, more people are moving longer way more often. There are other changes too, like trade, communication, and technology, but migration is most into our faces.
Assuming we don't destroy our economy, don't ban transport, or build walls around us to keep us in, national identity as we know it will not survive. Nation states will, at least as long as we are alive, but national identity will have to adapt. In that perspective this thread topic is a bit like discussing the deckchair arrangements of national identity.
well ..
There are three ways to Conquer some Nation .
1. Blur their Histories
2. Destroy every evidences of Their Histories , until they cant observes it anymore
3. Disconnected them from their ancestor , with telling if their ancestor is retarded and primitive.
IMHO ,
Cultural assimilation = smooth criminal
Imigrants should adapt with new land , not Change the land like their Perceptions .
There is usually a third alternative posited in the middle, integration.
Yes. Many people, conservatives in particular, are alarmed by multiculturalism. In fact, America has been multicultural damn near from the beginning. People thought that Irish would never fit in, and there were nativist groups opposed them(ironically often composed of only 2nd or third generation Americans...) I'm half Irish and half Sicilian (my father had skin tone that could be confused with a Mexican.) I remember visiting my Sicilian grandparents and the adults were speaking Italian, whereas the children spoke English. We're already seeing the same pattern with the Hispanic immigrants. The adults sometimes speaking limited English, but the children speak English fine and sometimes acting as interpreters for their parents and are as "American" as anyone. So the history of integration seems be repeating itself, although it again might be a couple generation process. Meanwhile for the immigrants, the English classes taught for free at the library are packed. In cities with a large Hispanic population such as Las Vegas, the stages of integration are apparent (not to mention some of the Hispanic families never crossed the border - the border crossed over them.)
Assuming we don't destroy our economy, don't ban transport, or build walls around us to keep us in, national identity as we know it will not survive.
That's true overall.But there is a another reason for the border fence with Mexico besides immigration. We need to keep the drug cartels and the Mexican drug wars out of America as a matter of internal security. Detailing what to do about this and other drug policy issues would require a separate thread, however.
Like many here I don't believe in multiculturism.
In the past we absorbed people in a long period when the population was much smaller on this island and even with teething troubles. The most conspicuous teething was Irish during the 19th and early 20th centuries but in time they became part and parcel. Trouble is now that this small island is now the most overcrowded place in Europe and the pressure on infrastructure and costs is phenomenal. With this happening so fast and no time to adapt who areas have become almost foreign and split neighbourhoods across the land. So although I accept the principle of immigration it also has to be controlled and not just a dumping ground and play place because of the Welfare State attraction. The way things are now going I am not surprised that the number of indigenous leaving here is in the 6 figures.
Welfare State attraction
I truly don't understand that talking point, unless the rules in the UK are really, really different from the rest of the world.
[Edit]Hmm, perhaps they are (http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jul/29/eu-migrants-britain-further-restrictions-welfare-payments) (or soon were). Even so, I can hardly imagine such a thing being
attractive. It looks like the maximum is about 72 Pounds a week, which I'd have my doubts would even pay for rent. At best it would make your savings last for a few months longer, which, of course, is pretty much the point of such a system in the first place. Instead of going bankrupt within a month or two you'll go bankrupt in, say, twice that time.[/edit]
Assuming we don't destroy our economy, don't ban transport, or build walls around us to keep us in, national identity as we know it will not survive. Nation states will, at least as long as we are alive, but national identity will have to adapt
Europe's past, present and, probably future, always demonstrated the opposite. National identity it's growing all over the place and it's not some Erasmus program and other propagandist idiocies that will change it.
Migrant populations are a false and hypocrite problem, basically they are needed to do what locals don't want to do.
Much worst than multiculturalism is the forced imposition of an universal and reductive "culture", expressed by the usage of English language everywhere, American originated softwares (googles, facebooks and the sort), idolization of "Free Market" and the annihilation of humanistic culture and human solidarity, that is known as "cultural globalization".
That's the real problem, that's the enemy, not the migrants needed to serve at our houses, clean our streets and so on.
What I don't quite understand about those who are afraid of foreigners 'destroying' their culture, identity or whatever tribal marker they bring up this time around - is your tribal marker so weak and unattractive that it needs government protection?
What I don't quite understand about those who are afraid of foreigners 'destroying' their culture, identity or whatever tribal marker they bring up this time around - is your tribal marker so weak and unattractive that it needs government protection?
Affraid, no, I don't think so.
We don't want foreigners to come in to our Country feeling they have some sort of right to just settle in wherever they want, & create a piece of their former country within our Country, under their own set of rules & laws, & under their own control.
If they want in, they must be willing to
'melt' -- 'blend' into our society, under
our rules, obeying
our laws, & speak
our language (eventually)....etc....etc.....etc.
If they aren't willing to assimilate, learn
our language, obey
our laws, contribute to the betterment of
our society, then they can take their unwelcome sorry foreign asses out of our Country, & not let the door hit them in the ass as they depart.....never to return.
See ya ...... Scram ...... you're not welcome here ...... we don't want you .... you have no right to be here ... Good fuckin' riddance!
Hope that clears the air. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/friends.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/friends01.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
You yourself is an example true assimilation doesn't work. I assume you are born in the US, and some of your ancestors too. Still you are spouting sympathy with Irish terrorists, even though such Republican extremist nonsense should have been washed away in the assimilation process.
You yourself is an example true assimilation doesn't work. I assume you are born in the US, and some of your ancestors too. Still you are spouting sympathy with Irish terrorists, even though such Republican extremist nonsense should have been washed away in the assimilation process.
Ahhhhhhh.....The beauty of being American ..... One can pledge allegiance to America, & all she stands for, while still individually supporting the political plights of Patriots
* in their quest for Independence, which has nothing whatsoever to do with process of
Cultural Assimilation, using any definition I've ever read.
Jax, I guess you, not being an American, might not completely understand that ..... but other Americans probably could & would. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/signsandflags2.gif)(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/awright005.gif)
If I read you correctly, it seems I can't have any political sidings in foreign affairs without running the risk of being somehow dissimilated??
If so, that's preposterous at its very core -- totally nonsensical, & completely un-American.
America is not a Multicultural Nation (much to the chagrin of multitudes of Multiculturalist movements).
America is a [glow=blue,2,300]
'Melting Pot'. [/glow] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot)
[glow=green,2,300]* "One man's Terrorist, is another man's Freedom Fighter"[/glow]
[glow=blue,2,300]In 1776 American Patriots were all known as Colonial Terrorists to the British. [/glow]
America is not a Multicultural Nation (much to the chagrin of multitudes of Multiculturalist movements).
America is a 'Melting Pot'. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_pot)
I'm sure that in practice this is true. We've had Italian, Jewish Irish enclaves. In less politically correct terms, ghettos. My Sicilian father explained to me that how Sicilians stopped being poor was to get out of their ghettos and become part of the larger culture. I see the same thing for rise of the rise of the Irish out of poverty. We are seeing Mexicans learning English. getting good jobs and breaking the cycle of poverty, so I still think the problem of them refusing to adapt to the culture is a bit of illusion created by new arrivals and first generation families.
Let me say Frenzie on the matter of what you don't understand that we do have a problem. Great Britain overtook the Netherlands regarding overcrowding. At French ports there are constant crowds of illegals trying to smuggle in here and the French have been quite direct in stating it is because we are so damn generous. It is one thing taking in immigrants who are of value but there has to be a limit on a small island like this.On top of that admin services are creaking with inflated costs and towns no longer seem to be ours. With 2 million being allowed to flood in here with the last daft government it only made things worse and the practice is that multiculturism is a joke. When neighbourhoods are taken over and towns change their character little braodness occurs. Instead the incomers regard it as their place and create an apartheid.
At French ports there are constant crowds of illegals trying to smuggle in here
Illegals are
deportedrepatriated. At "best" have to stay in inhospitable camps while awaiting deportation. They don't receive welfare in any way that could be considered attractive, save perhaps to those who are literally starving. I don't think even the most socialistic socialists are in favor of much more than that, although according to some elements it's too much if they even receive as much as some milk powder. I guess it's like caviar or something.
What I don't quite understand about those who are afraid of foreigners 'destroying' their culture, identity or whatever tribal marker they bring up this time around - is your tribal marker so weak and unattractive that it needs government protection?
Affraid, no, I don't think so.
We don't want foreigners to come in to our Country feeling they have some sort of right to just settle in wherever they want, & create a piece of their former country within our Country, under their own set of rules & laws, & under their own control.
If they want in, they must be willing to 'melt' -- 'blend' into our society,
under our rules, obeying our laws, & speak our language (eventually)....etc....etc.....etc.
If they aren't willing to assimilate, learn our language, obey our laws, contribute to the betterment of our society, then they can take their unwelcome sorry foreign asses out of our Country, & not let the door hit them in the ass as they depart.....never to return.
See ya ...... Scram ...... you're not welcome here ...... we don't want you .... you have no right to be here ... Good fuckin' riddance!
Hope that clears the air. (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/friends.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/friends01.gif) (https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/cheerskj4.gif)
Shouldn't you be speaking Navajo or Pawnee by now?
Shouldn't you be speaking Navajo or Pawnee by now?
(https://www.smileyfaze.tk/slides/lol00100.gif)
Well Frenzie the lefties are ful of tosh at the best of times and it was a Labour government that let 2,000,000 flood in here during their term of office. I wouldn't trust the Labour lot with a pound never mind immigration or economics.
We have even had some of these pests going to court on their "human rights" and getting a clap on the back. All part of the EEC rubbish and get dished out what they want. The sooner we get out of that European Court the better never mind our own judges being curtailed by the stupid laws. Some of the ludicrous decisions make the blood boiland we the taxpayers pick up the tab. In many court issues we cannot send them back as their homeland is not a paragon of proper freedom and blah, blah. For goodnesssake we have a country to run and what these backwater countries do is their problem. I pay taxes and elect people to look after THIS country not others. We also get stuff about missing families and on it goes with many decisions being a red rag to the rest of us.
Illegals are deportedrepatriated. At "best" have to stay in inhospitable camps while awaiting deportation.
That people are in a state of
destitution of their rights as human beings that is morally inadmissible.
There are no such a thing as "illegal human beings".
Words matters because human beings matters.
Illegals are deportedrepatriated. At "best" have to stay in inhospitable camps while awaiting deportation.
That people are in a state of destitution of their rights as human beings that is morally inadmissible.
There are no such a thing as "illegal human beings".
Words matters because human beings matters.
It's called:
[glow=blue,2,300] "The survival of the fittest" [/glow]
"Survival of the fittest" is a phrase that originated in evolutionary theory as an alternative (but less accurate) way of describing the mechanism of natural selection. It is more commonly used today in other contexts, to refer to a supposed greater probability that "fit" as opposed to "unfit" individuals will survive some test.
Herbert Spencer first used the phrase – after reading Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species – in his Principles of Biology (1864), in which he drew parallels between his own economic theories and Darwin's biological ones, writing, "This survival of the fittest, which I have here sought to express in mechanical terms, is that which Mr. Darwin has called 'natural selection', or the preservation of favoured races in the struggle for life."
We have even had some of these pests going to court on their "human rights" and getting a clap on the back. All part of the EEC rubbish and get dished out what they want.
If they were treated in ways incompatible with the law of the land then I would expect no less from any properly functioning legal system in a free society. However, the 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights is meaningless by itself: it depends solely on the implementation in individual countries. Incidentally the UK is one of the many countries that voted in favor, more than two decades prior to the UK joining any "EEC rubbish".
On that note, I assume you're referring to the European Court of Human Rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights), which is wholly unrelated to the EU. It's basically a direct consequence of the European Convention on Human Rights (http://European Convention on Human Rights). It would help to form an opinion on the matter if you had any links to newspaper articles or court case files.
Immigrant criminals here and other dysfunctionals have went above our laws to the Euriepean Cort and got damn compensation. Rumanian and Bulgarian criminals have got the fraud activity sewn up and when people say at least the Poles are different that is not true as they contribute crims to as does the Baltic States. A big chunk of the jalied are non-indigenous so the crims have made money out of us under the "law." I just want us out of the European leg baloney as well as say goodbye to the messed up EEC.
On that note, I assume you're referring to the European Court of Human Rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights), which is wholly unrelated to the EU.
Yup. Didn't stop the EU from pilfering the CoE's flag, though.
Not initially (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_European_Coal_and_Steel_Community). On top of which, the idea of stars representing states is so blasé. :P (Can an idea be blasé? Oh well, today it can. :D)
On top of which, the idea of stars representing states is so blasé.
I agree. What do you propose?
On top of which, the idea of stars representing states is so blasé.
I agree. What do you propose?
Stripes, the more the better! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe#Barcode_flag) :left:
I went blind of a second after seeing that barcode flag :insane:
On top of which, the idea of stars representing states is so blasé.
I agree. What do you propose?
Triangles. Pyramids never go out of style.
Well now our government wants to limit the cost of Welfare right into the next parliament. It wants to make the cap some £23,000 which tells you something about the damn cost of such. This includes rent assistance and all the other benefits and a great number of the non-indigenous are amongst those getting such good treatment financially. Small wonder the legions want to come here. As for the outgoing leader of the EEC yakking about us wanting to control immigration I think someone should show the clown a map. We are an island and already overcrowded. Mind you he is a failure anyway so can be ignored. We are getting increased separated communities here and towns and cities becoming unsettled like no other previous immigration.
Stripes, the more the better! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Europe#Barcode_flag) :left:
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=513.24;msg=28819)
Yep, a barcode seems adequate... to Chinese :)
Triangles. Pyramids never go out of style.
Never, that's the masonry symbol Americans have at the dollar bill, Texas airport, NSA flag and everywhere - a triangle/pyramid with an eye.
I suggest an huge phallic symbol that expresses clearly to the rest of the world what we think about them.
Besides, it's an ancient thing, present at so many old cultures, that shows our disdain for newcomers.... :)
I suggest an huge phallic symbol that expresses clearly to the rest of the world what we think about them.
Besides, it's an ancient thing, present at so many old cultures, that shows our disdain for newcomers.... :)
The world's biggest dick ( I'm sure it was at some point :right: )
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.history.com%2Fnews%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F10%2Fwsahington-monument.jpg&hash=fe93944aa34264de48981431c0ca3606" rel="cached" data-hash="fe93944aa34264de48981431c0ca3606" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://www.history.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/wsahington-monument.jpg)
Well, this is turning difficult to get ourselves a common identity....
Better each one to remain with it's own. :)
Never, that's the masonry symbol Americans have at the dollar bill, Texas airport, NSA flag and everywhere - a triangle/pyramid with an eye.
We can leave out the Sauron eye. :P
We can leave out the Sauron eye. :P
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=513.32;msg=28838)
Indeed, Big Brother's eye being so much more adequate to current times.
Anyway, there's no countries anymore so national identity is nothing but a remembrance of the past when men were men. Maybe it will reborn again, I believe in miracles. :)
We all are refugees in what used to be our own countries. Nothing but that.
When Obama comes to his end, hopefully then the United States of America will return to a position of American National Might & Pride ........... back from the depths of Obama's Message of Flaccid National Cowardice!
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/imagecache.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FIr96Md3.jpg&hash=a556a737ea457900b4d02be28def46b2" rel="cached" data-hash="a556a737ea457900b4d02be28def46b2" data-warn="External image, click here to view original" data-url="http://imgur.com/Ir96Md3.jpg)
You are so wrong there Belfrager. The Freemasons were up to their necks in the American Revolution many of the early pioneers like Davy Cricket, Bowie etc were in the "Craft." Members ina lodge in Boston were deeply involved in the Boston Tea Party and that is why we see Masonic symbols on the banknote and in occasional places. For the run-of-the-mill mindset it will pass on by so you fit that stereotype well. Goodness the Pope who died after 6 weeks had his secretary a cardinal who was a member of the rogue Rome P2 Masonic lodge along with corrupt people including the head of the fraud police, etc. A former member involved in the Vatican Bank corruption was hanged under Blackfriars Bridge on London's River Thames. Beside his body little items associated with Masonic procedures. So right from the start Masons were involved in controlling over the pond and we get neat excuses here as if just a coincidence. Yeah right!
Tut, tut, SmileyFaze for a terrorist what a clash of morality you have. During all the historical time up until modern times where you have zombied across the world creating wars, corruption, takeovers and all in the name of pride and patriotism. Comic stuff that GW created much of the financial disaster but suitably overlooked because wild fanatics oin what you call patriotism is nothing more than blatant and in your face strident nationalism which you blame others for! Due to the high number of headbanger political prehistorics living in the country the only way to conclude your mess up of the world and arrogant interference is a financial collapse. Not something to wish on anyone but your massive mental health industry is useless!
I guess the French see what Multiculturalism got them ..... Islamism = Death .... just the tip of the iceburg (or sand hill).
Placate those Islamist scum, & they'll take every opportunity toward total domination.
The Charlie Hebdo massacre shows the failure of multiculturalism.
All three killers - two at Charlie Hebdo and the other at the Jewish shop - were French-born Algerian and Senegalese Muslims who did not assimilate into French society.
Would you or anyone else like you ask to have French culture explained to you?
No. Nevertheless, it is impossible to define.
Just as it is impossible to define American culture.
Yet you know it when you see it.
You recognize cultures without needing a definition (ex: needing to be TOLD what to think).
If you cannot fit in without a definition given to you on a piece of paper you should fuck off back to Algeria, Senegal or wherever.
Fit in, or begone.
Make a goddam effort to fit in.
Don't bring Iran, Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Senegal, Afghanistan, Iran to Paris or America.
If we want to see exotic people with exotic beliefs and habits, we will get on a plane and travel.
Don't really want to see exotic people and exotic beliefs on the street and on the bus, in the restaurant, or on the airplane.
If you are not interested in fitting in, I am certainly not interested in accommodating you...........period!
During all the historical time up until modern times where you have zombied across the world creating wars, corruption, takeovers and all in the name of pride and patriotism.
How completely unlike the Brits. They remained a small island nation, and certainly didn't have a situation in which the sun never set on their empire. Nope. Not at all.
We don't want foreigners to come in to our Country feeling they have some sort of right to just settle in wherever they want, & create a piece of their former country within our Country, under their own set of rules & laws, & under their own control.
Ultimately, assimilation is inevitable, usually generationally, but not always. The worst case of unwillingness to assimilate that I'm aware of came with the entry of Europeans into North America. They simply wouldn't embrace Indian culture as their own.
I grew up in an area of Detroit that was largely Polish. Many of the older people were straight from Poland, barely spoke English and adhered to the customs...religion, language and food... of Poland. Their children and their children's children blended into a more "American" cultural mode. Eventually, they lost the Polish language. Due to cultural proximity my family became Polishized...potatoes, sauerkraut, and kielbasa.
Jak się masz?
Dobje, pan.
I picked that up but little else, although I still like kielbasa.
Some groups resist assimilation, the Romani, for example. The Russian shamans.
In the U.S. today the large Hispanic community is having a major impact. Mexican restaurants are everywhere. Sadly, anti-Hispanic groups in Arizona, Texas and California have sprung up in reaction to the influx of Mexicans.
Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing Scotland become more Pakistani than at present.
Dear De Valera, oops sorry, Sanguinemoon. A wee island that produced the biggest empire in history. Your empire is based on global greed and misuse of countries, military invasions and cock-ups so hardly an innocent with your record.
I second Jaybro's motion to send all Arabs to Glasgow. :cheers:
Have you no pity?
Poor Arabs.
Yep all amusing and made me smile especially that brain dead from Australia and I still am curious about where his ancestors came from, hhhm.
Anyway for more serious matters (which automatically puts tt92 aside as he cannot answer but just fall back on the swipes. Multiculturism does not work and instead we get a modern aparheid and down in england where so many places have become such and not comfortable to live in says a lot.
Your empire is based on global greed and misuse of countries, military invasions and cock-ups so hardly an innocent with your record.
Again, how very unlike the British...
Sang. do you know enough history to -mostly- absolve everyone…? (If you don't, you don't know enough history.) But you can learn…
Maybe.
(Of course, if you're going to take -e.g., Howie– seriously: I don''t know what to tell you.)
There are some ignorant promoters of lost empire who -for some reason, and for no part of their own- like to say: "Hooray for Us! (Whoever the heck we are…)" These are not serious people.
Those who'd promote them are, likewise, not serious.
RJ, what— wait! What? :)
When you don't know the creed of you're conquerors — well, you'll be too old to much care.
How about the kids you care about…?
Hard to deny your history and actions then Sanguinemoon, eh? :)