The DnD Sanctuary

Because shit happens, a not so much politically correct thread.

Here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofascism), wikipedia's article and here (http://www.penttilinkola.com/pentti_linkola/ecofascism/), the real thing by it's main doctrinaire Pentti Linkola.
Give it a view.

What do you think about?
I think there's a strong possibility about this new nightmare to expand.
Be prepared for the new century.

Pentti Linkola is extremely radical in ideology, but completely harmless in practice. He was one of the founders of the original Green Party in Finland, but was later expelled from it. This scheme has repeated with every movement he founded.

Yes, it's true that he places ecological values higher than human life, and he has explicitly said it, but in reality he has no criminal record (different from his less radical, politically more ambitious comrades who throw him out of his own organisations). He now leads a very modest heremitic life fishing by a lake.

Most one can say of him is that he is an author. A representative of ecofascism, yes, but he has shown no capability to put his proposed policies into effect or gather a critical mass of followers.

I personally also hold ecological ideals. Probably because I grew up in the countryside :)

Most one can say of him is that he is an author. A representative of ecofascism, yes, but he has shown no capability to put his proposed policies into effect or gather a critical mass of followers.

it's not up to an author to put things in practice, others will gladly do it for him.

From the confusion and disorientation the western world is living, strong ideas have more chance to raise regardless its morality.
This ecofascim thing has a strong internal coherence, and offers a fundamental thing to people, it clearly identifies the culprits.
All those million third world sub humans are destroying mother earth resources (that obviously should be ours, not theirs). A decalcation from the Nazi/Jewish thing but in the name of Earth's preservation, a totally acceptable reason and a duty to the next generations, to our children.

Ecofascism has a future. Millions of people don't. It's just a matter of time.

All those small communities, already flourishing all over the world, that dedicates to ecological organic farming together with radical different ways of life are a fertile terrain for spreading the new ideology.

Besides, both have an enemy in common, industrial processes and consumerism.
Things can change radically sometimes.. the only thing needed is someone with charisma to appear.

I hesitate to respond here… The current and virulent culprit of this genre of apocalyptic ideation is anthropogenic climate change (…what used to be called global warming). I've been called a "denier" and worse: But I've maintained that the various climate models are poor models and that the actual data matters…
I'm not now nor have I ever been in favor of pollution…  But. of course, that doesn't mean anything to the True Green Believers. If I don't agree that bureaucrats can best assimilate contemporary science and promulgate and prosecute policy, I'm the enemy.

There is in every apocalyptic scenario a detestation of humanity. Wouldn't there have to be a self-loathing that precedes the general abhorrence…?

The current and virulent culprit of this genre of apocalyptic ideation is anthropogenic climate change (…what used to be called global warming). I've been called a "denier" and worse: But I've maintained that the various climate models are poor models and that the actual data matters…

To call it global warming is already a fatal misconception of the problem, easily leading to partisan affirmation (=blind faith) or denial (as partisan and unreasoned as blind faith).

First, "global warming" is only a term in English-speaking countries. Second, it's not a scientific term at all, but purely political and very recent.

Ever heard of ozone depletion in the 80's? (You are sufficiently old to have memories from that decade, right?) This was a scientifically undisputed phenomenon, which managed to prompt effective political counter-measures. The "global warming" political movement is an extension of this earlier action, but with an added twist of cronyism.

Ozone depletion and "global warming" are both aspects of the greenhouse effect. Greenhouse effect is not straightforward warming nor mere "change". It's dangerous precisely as greenhouse effect. It's like water at boiling point: The input of heat continues, but water is not getting any hotter. Instead, water becomes turbulent. This is greenhouse effect.

I'm not now nor have I ever been in favor of pollution…

This is a good start.

There is in every apocalyptic scenario a detestation of humanity. Wouldn't there have to be a self-loathing that precedes the general abhorrence…?

Given what humanity does - and given that it keeps doing it -, it's humanly impossible to not react. But of course, any old reaction won't do. It has to be justified and appropriate reaction.

The earth has been heating, then cooling, then heating, then cooling, then heating, then cooling, for billions of years.

This is cyclic activity has been in force since the beginning of time -- for our purposes since Earth's creation.

Every time earth completes a cycle it cleanses itself of parasitic infestations.

Humans are but one part of such an infestation.

Nothing any human does, whether alone, or en masse, will interfere with these timely cycles, or cause them to change pattern.

So, I say ...... [glow=blue,2,300]ENJOY, enjoy while you can... [/glow]



Sure does beat those phoney Carbon Taxes, or Carbon Credits.

Things can change radically sometimes.. the only thing needed is someone with charisma to appear.

Climatic changes are only a part of the problem. Lack of resources are the other part.

Studies about climate change are problematic since many reflect who's paying for the study.
But there's something no one is paying for, good sense. It's obvious that being the eventual consequences so huge and devastating it's a matter of pure irresponsibility not to consider the dangers and do nothing.

Extremist ecology goes way beyond just climatic changes. It promises happiness in earth through a return to the origins. It's political, philosophical, environmental, social and even religious. Ecofascim adds one more component, it's violent.

@Smiley
What a banana can do to the best of intentions...  :lol:

I hesitate to respond here… The current and virulent culprit of this genre of apocalyptic ideation is anthropogenic climate change (…what used to be called global warming).

And when you ended your hesitation you decided to go off on a tangent? We surely have treads on climate change, and ecofascism, if we agree on that term, predates these concerns.

Appreciation and idolisation of nature goes back a long while, we can take Walden (1854) as an example. This is not fascism, eco- or otherwise.

Misanthropy is widespread. Mankind is something to despise. They (very rarely "we") are stupid and destructive, a plague, a virus. Misanthropy isn't fascism either, and can be found in every quarter, among left wing, right wing, greens, non-committed. Mankind is the problem, no me who can't handle other people well. Thus if there had been less people I would have less problems, if there were no people I would have no problem at all.

That gives us the formula: If problem then population control. Depending on where you're standing the population to be controlled could be Jews, or Mexicans, poor and unhealthy people, people using a lot of resources, or everyone. Now we are getting into worrisome territory. It may or may not be fascism yet, but we are getting there. Moving from wishful thinking to a system of action or government along sufficiently fascist lines is what it takes.

Extremist ecology goes way beyond just climatic changes. It promises happiness in earth through a return to the origins. It's political, philosophical, environmental, social and even religious. Ecofascim adds one more component, it's violent.

Depending on definition, a celebration of violence as a mean is part of what fascism is (that is, that peaceful fascism, pacifascism?, would be an oxymoron).

In the violence department animal rights activists may be the most dangerous, but they generally don't have any overarching political ambitions above save the kittens.

Appreciation and idolisation of nature goes back a long while, we can take Walden (1854) as an example. This is not fascism, eco- or otherwise.

Thoreau? American Romanticism is rather late. :)

That gives us the formula: If problem then population control. Depending on where you're standing the population to be controlled could be Jews, or Mexicans, poor and unhealthy people, people using a lot of resources, or everyone. Now we are getting into worrisome territory. It may or may not be fascism yet, but we are getting there. Moving from wishful thinking to a system of action or government along sufficiently fascist lines is what it takes.

Answer by the ecofascists:

If the present amount of Earths population is preserved and is reduced only by the means of birth control, then:

Birthgiving must be licenced. To enhance population quality, genetically or socially unfit homes will be denied offspring, so that several birth licences can be allowed to families of quality.

Energy production must be drastically reduced. Electricity is allowed only for the most necessary lighting and communications.

Food: Hunting must be made more efficient. Human diet will include rats and invertebrate animals. Agriculture moves to small un-mechanized units. All human manure is used as fertilizer.

Traffic is mostly done with bicycles and rowing boats. Private cars are confiscated. Long-distance travel is done with sparse mass transport. Trees will be planted on most roads.

Foreign affairs: All mass immigration and most of import-export trade must stop. Cross-border travel is allowed only for small numbers of diplomats and correspondents.

Business will mostly end. Manufacture is allowed only for well argumented needs. All major manufacturing capacity is state owned. Products will be durable and last for generations.

Science and schooling: Education will concentrate on practical skills. All competition is rooted out. Technological research is reduced to extreme minimum. But every child will learn how to clean a fish in a way that only the big shiny bones are left over."

It seems they prefer to start with:

Although Finnish activist Pentti Linkola does not endorse fascism per se, he has expressed admiration for the German National Socialist regime for its efficiency in killing large numbers of human beings in a short period of time, describing the massacres of the Holocaust and Stalin's Great Purge as "massive thinning operations."

He seems like most webloggers, thinking that because he can post his revolutionary ideas he has the power to change the world. And just like most webloggers, irrelevant.

He seems like most webloggers, thinking that because he can post his revolutionary ideas he has the power to change the world. And just like most webloggers, irrelevant.

I agree with you that we don't need stop everything we're doing right now, get the weapons and start building barricades to defend ourselves...
After all, if we are already living under techno-fascism and do nothing, just a bit more wouldn't affect our softy lives too much...

When time to regret arrives, it will be too late.

It used to be wandering dialogues about neo-fascism now it is yet another type. Fascism itself is lost somewhere?

Fascism itself is lost somewhere?

The word is so overused that the meaning is lost. This guy means to be just another crank.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-07-30, 22:48:12

Fascism itself is lost somewhere?

The word is so overused that the meaning is lost...........

Sorta like the word Racist.

Racist:  A person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others.

Fascism itself is lost somewhere?

Fascism demands duties from people, Democracy promises them Rights. What were you expecting to be more popular...

It's obvious that "ecofascim" has nothing of fascism but everything of Nazism. The usual confusion that goes on the Anglo-Saxon mind.

interesting direction there Belfrager. Sir Winston Churchill a great believer in democracy said back in the 30's that although it wouldn't work in Gt Britain that what was being doing in Italy was perhaps suited to it. Certainly words like 'racism' and 'fascism' are over-used and stretched. Basically whatever direction a country wants to go to is their internal matter. Wasn't Austria leaned on in the EEC when a coalition government had a nationalist party they didn't like so the country had to have another election?

It's obvious that "ecofascim" has nothing of fascism but everything of Nazism. The usual confusion that goes on the Anglo-Saxon mind.

If we take fascism to be what Mussolini represented and nazism what Hitler represented (which is exactly so as far as their own self-labels go), then indeed Linkola is closer to econazist.

How about Franco and Salazar? What if they had had a more focused environmental agenda, so that history would have an example of good ecofascism?

is this just my scepticism , or in the past ,  Nazi and their ally are heavily   Fascist ?

Italy , NAzi , and Japan .

@Rj , i thought UK government have partijs .

lesser  democracy in Monarchy for sure ..

but i guess , there is Democracy in the Government .

How about Franco and Salazar? What if they had had a more focused environmental agenda, so that history would have an example of good ecofascism?

Nobody in the world had environmental agendas back then. Nature was seen as a force that Man should conquer through feats of engineering, production and science.

Salazar was never a fascist. In fact he outlaw the "Brown Shirts", the fascist movement, and reduced them to nothing. A regime that has at the top of it's ideology the trilogy God - Fatherland - Family can never be a fascist one. Propaganda against Portugal to steal our colonies invented the fascist thing and rjhowie keeps on repeating it like a puppet.

Generalíssimo Franco was different, but both being fundamentally anti communism, there was an entente cordiale between the two despite personal disliking amongst them. Franco never liked Salazar and Salazar considered Franco a peasant.

i guess the law  of nature is   harvest what have   planted .
Ecofascism for sure plant hates and Wars , if they harvest hates and Wars .
that's probably something like  the Law of nature .

so does with what Human did for the Earth .
Climate change  is real .
in here , Rainy and summer season  is messed .

so, if someday Homosapiens  are Extinct because what they have done .
   perhaps  that's caused by  what they have plant .  :rolleyes:

And when you ended your hesitation you decided to go off on a tangent? We surely have treads on climate change, and ecofascism, if we agree on that term, predates these concerns.

What I notice is the faddishness of such… I relate them to the current bugaboo, Antrhropogenic Climate Change, because the political elites expend much "energy" to gain economic and political power over others so as to "correct" what they take to be an intolerable situation: The Climate.
(Of course, the climate has little or nothing to do with their prescriptions and proscriptions, no matter how much their rhetoric does.)

Surely, the various "Mankind is a plague!" groups have never proved their case… (Except, perhaps, the American sect that eschewed procreation… Wonder what happened to them?) But new ones emerge every generation or so.

But perhaps ersi can explain why this (http://www.hedweb.com/) is in-coherent? :) (I'd also like to hear about the latest scientific assessment of the ozone layer of our atmosphere…)
———————————————
@Sparta: Perhaps the world is a little more complicated than our homilies can explain…

that's nothing to do with religion .

in my land there is something like that , but that's not religion .

that's traditional ontology .

Religion ( especially Abrahamic Stream )  for somehow just copy everything  , then manipulate  that like bitch to selling their labels . 

I relate them to the current bugaboo, Antrhropogenic Climate Change,

Let's see how bugaboos relates with current scientific knowledge:

Quite possibly the most important thing to communicate about climate change is that there is a 97% consensus amongst the scientific experts and scientific research that humans are causing global warming.

The source (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/may/16/climate-change-scienceofclimatechange).

..................

I think that underestimate eco nazism it's to play with fire. The good nice comfortable life of western privileged people will not last forever.
And very specially it should make us think what's our solution. It seems to be none but a few cosmetic thingies that even those gets immediately a fierce resistance.

But perhaps ersi can explain why this (http://www.hedweb.com/) is in-coherent? :)

Lay it out in a relevant thread and I will deal with it. I mean, I won't even try to think what you may think its virtues are. It goes like this:

You think it is a system with defensible virtues? Spell them out and we'll see. Until then, keep imagining.

(I'd also like to hear about the latest scientific assessment of the ozone layer of our atmosphere…)

"Since the adoption and strengthening of the Montreal Protocol has led to reductions in the emissions of CFCs, atmospheric concentrations of the most significant compounds have been declining. These substances are being gradually removed from the atmosphere; since peaking in 1994, the Effective Equivalent Chlorine (EECl) level in the atmosphere had dropped about 10% by 2008." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Prospects_of_ozone_depletion

Bottom line: It was found out to have been caused by the modern industry of our civilisation and is effectively being dealt with by means of policies concerning the industry.

This (http://ozonewatch.gsfc.nasa.gov/meteorology/annual_data.html) site tracks the Antarctic ozone hole from 1979 (size 1.1 million km²) - 2013 (24 million km²) . The ozone has good years and bad years, but in general it seems safe to note the hole reached its peak in 2005-2006 the trend is downward. However, it actually grew in 2013.

"Since the adoption and strengthening of the Montreal Protocol has led to reductions in the emissions of CFCs, atmospheric concentrations of the most significant compounds have been declining. These substances are being gradually removed from the atmosphere; since peaking in 1994, the Effective Equivalent Chlorine (EECl) level in the atmosphere had dropped about 10% by 2008." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Prospects_of_ozone_depletion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion#Prospects_of_ozone_depletion)

Which shows that we can do it. :)

Which shows that we can do it.  :)
(https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?action=reporttm;topic=452.28;msg=24697)

Taking fourteen years to reduce a mere ten percent it's not exactly an example of efficacy... it would take one hundred forty to eliminate the rest.
But a nice joke you made there with the yes, we can... I wouldn't be surprised if a new Nobel prize at environmental defense would be attributed to him...

While you discuss climate changes I'm trying to create eco-something to oppose the ecofascism thing.
Eco-social-democracy? eco-liberalism? eco-anarchy? no-eco-at-all?

Nope, I'm not going to save the world... eco-chicken rules already.

Eco-Sanity   :sherlock:

the Sane thingy is the Opposite the insanity of the Fascist .

since they are usually are manipulators , label sellers , etc

Eco-Sanity    :sherlock:

the Sane thingy is the Opposite the insanity of the Fascist .

:)
Well said Sparta.

Even worst than the Fascists it's the eco-absenteeism.

There isn't any such cogent phenomena. Animal rights activists have had the most violent track record, but the actual casualties have been miniscule, a handful fatalities globally. A more murderous outfit like ISIL would kill more people on a slow afternoon than animal rights activists have since records began.

More substantial green organisations, like Greenpeace, are non-violent. Some might unwittingly put themselves or others at risk, but the risk would be far lower than being killed by your razor.

People who decide to live primitively in a cabin in the forest by the lake, like this retired Finn, are few. Some of them, like this retired Finn, spout fantasies on Facebook or in other comments about wanting to kill millions of people they claim are worse than worthless. Others don't. But this Finn and millions of others wanting to kill millions of other in their mind haven't even killed 0,0001% of a million people in real life. The Unabomber did, but it still took him two decades to kill 0,0003% of a million. Bearded people in a cabin in the forest by the lake are a lesser danger to society than bee hives in the forest by the lake.

The number of people romanicising this kind of life is larger, even I have a cabin in the woods by the lake (that I use about once every three years), but the people truly believing that primitivism  is the way ahead to save the planet is in actuality rare, and much less common than anti-green voices claim. The Finn at least practice what he preaches (except for the genocide part), the rest proscribe primitivism and forced birth control for others, usually people in other countries.

Taking fourteen years to reduce a mere ten percent it's not exactly an example of efficacy... it would take one hundred forty to eliminate the rest.
But a nice joke you made there with the yes, we can... I wouldn't be surprised if a new Nobel prize at environmental defense would be attributed to him...

It pretty much is. Removing these gases faster would be extremely expensive to little benefit. The growth has been halted and slowly reversed. Given the time delay effects, it can take decades for gasses not produced not to leak into the atmosphere, this is pretty good, a success. The risk for a half-century project is that it may be forgotten and other gases produced in the future to reverse the reversal. I don't find that very likely though.

I hope you are alone in assigning a can-do attitude exclusively to the current US President.

Sparta you do not need to be a Fascist or the opposite to be a manipulator. Would-be democrat people are just as capable.  :cry:

Sir , manipulative is the symptomp of psychopathy .

so what's the oppossite of insanity if not sanity ?

I hope you are alone in assigning a can-do attitude exclusively to the current US President.

I hope you, jax, are alone in missing Belfrager's sarcasm... :)

Belfrager's sarcasm..

It's not easy to me to express in English the right amount of irony, sometimes I under do it, others I over do it...

And to complicate things, irony must be adequate not only to Americans and English but also to Czechs, Germans, Dutch, Brazilians, Estonians and Indonesians as well as to the hidden rest of the world that avidly reads our posts...

I long quited to try it with the Scotish...
And I'm writing English increasingly worst... I don't know what's happening, have I already reached the top and now it's always going down?? :)

I said irony not sarcasm because it's not the same. I do irony. Well, I try to.

In fairness in too little or too much is something that most can identify with so you are not that distant. As for chatting in Scotish as an alternative maybe Scottish would be easier for you......?