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Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 205333 times)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #450
@Belfrager
Take a look at the Stanford page on Nominalism and maybe you can eventually figure Oakdale out. Good luck with trying to distinguish between abstract objects and universals. The task is all the more harder as Oakdale keeps playing the fool with many of his philosophical commitments (how typical of atheists!). He might be just a nihilist under splendid rhetorical cover.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #451
Do you really think I've misunderstood Popper?

Probably.
My statement didn't emerge from observation and then inductive reasoning, the principle of falsifiability only applies to such method. Such principle is important to Science because it's important in order to validate scientific method (according to Popper but not accepted as such by others.)

I don't remember Popper to extrapolate it outside it's strict use as a component of the scientific method. When I say everything already exists we are clearly at a different area, we are into the search for ontological truth. You don't get there through scientific method and even less using Popper's ideas out of context to conditioning it.
But it's entertaining to see the variety of boxes one can construct that enclose normal, everyday thought…
Did you mean something more, or something different?

It doesn't matter at all because you are not interested in the ontological nature of things but only at the system of classification you made of them. Such system, for you, it's probably in itself the Truth.

Edit:
@Ersi
Yes, yes, I'm aware of Oakdale's nominalism.
"He might be just a nihilist under splendid rhetorical cover." Indeed, more than splendid, his rethoric has all the attributes of rococo art, what is surprising specially for an American and original for a nihilist. :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #452
It doesn't matter at all because you are not interested in the ontological nature of things

Indeed, that's often the case… When ways of talking (i.e., analogies) are elevated (e.g., pushed past their usual and vague application) to ontological independence, nonsense typically ensues!
Are you confused? Blame it not on my inept communication; nor on your inapt understanding: You've instantiated the eternal, ideal object Confusion.
(Was it good, for you? :) )
Had you kept your head out of the clouds, you could argue otherwise… :)
Quote
Nihilism is the thesis that there are no composite objects: every object is mereologically simple (i.e., partless). Together with the plausible assumption that ordinary objects (if they exist) are all composite objects, nihilism entails that there are no ordinary objects. Nihilists typically accept that there are countless microscopic objects: although there are “simples arranged dogwise” and “simples arranged statuewise”, there are no dogs or statues. But nihilism is also compatible with existence monism—the thesis that there is a single, all-encompassing simple (the cosmos, a.k.a. “the blobject”)—as well as the extreme nihilist thesis that there are no objects whatsoever.

Although I like the term blobject (kinda mystical, i'n't? :) ) I see in most philosophical "positions" little more than posturing: Head-in-the-clouds playing with words; word-play, where the usual rules of language are changed and, usually, kept mostly secret… :) 
(That may be giving "philosophers" too much credit, however: They may be unaware that they've in fact changed the rules! Or -a kinder way of putting it- simply get caught up in the excitement of the game!)
But, of course, I doubt that's what ersi meant by calling me a nihilist. He most likely meant to call me either immoral or amoral…because, yes, I'm comfortable with locating morality entirely within human groupings. (Which is not to say that anything goes!) And I could probably be called an atheist, too.
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A side note: I don't think the term falsification should be used outside of its technical sense, which is that of providing a better justificatory warrant for the truth of scientific theories than confirmation…
You may be confusing me with Sparta?
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #453
All possible languages already exists. Everything already exists, the Creation was total and perfect, not partial and imperfect.
It couldn't had been any other way regardless what we can be conscious about,
That's man condition, discovering the miracle of God's creation, one step at the time.

Ah! Yes, I see where you got the idea: I myself asked And such pronouncements could be falsified — how?
Your pronouncements -I should better say- are not sensible, they refer not to matters empirical but to philosophical positions (as mentioned above…) and are part of a game whose rules I'd defy* you to specify! :)

While Popper's fixation on falsification was an improvement over the Vienna Circle's confirmation, I don't think he was quite as confused as they, about the demarkation of sense and non-sense… That is, I read what he wrote about philosophy as being more reasonable.
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* I won't accept a catechism… Rather, give me the point of the game.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #454
to make this partij more phun ..

how about put some Wittgenstein flavor at this thread  ?  :drunk:

Wittgenstein will be like , it's just about language .

the limit of the World , is language .

everyone is struggles with language to express their mind and thought


just describe , dont explain


Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #455
But Wittgenstein himself rejected most of that stance (taken from his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus) as both too restrictive and, in some parts, just plain wrong (e.g., his picture theory of propositional meaning…)!
The "just describe, don't explain" is not particularly Wittgensteinian. He'd more like have interrupted even your short comment, and talked until everyone else was too tired to go on.
Or, as he did the only time he and Popper were in the same room, stormed out… :) (Sort of like Woody Allen, who said: "I'm not afraid of death. I just don't want to be there when it happens." W. wasn't so much afraid of losing a debate as he was of being struck speechless by someone other than himself or God!) W. was better at brooding than any other philosopher I've heard of.

p.s.,
Did you enjoy Popper's address to the Aristotelian Society?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #456
Let's revisit Pascal's Wager: Perhaps it should better be said thus, "Since the mob's sincere beliefs won't allow them to brook a different opinion, and you'd likely accept most of their moral precepts anyway; pretend to believe… If there is a God, He'll likely understand your motives!"

I don't read French, and I'm not that interested in the wager — since I'm not likely in any danger from religious fervor. Had I been born elsewhere and elsewhen, I might feel differently…
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@Belfrager: If the point of the game is "salvation," I won't play. If I don't believe in your God, "salvation" is a culmination that's unreachable. I am not Sisyphus!
You can play the part, if you wish. But your anguish isn't an object of admiration…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #457
I see in most philosophical "positions" little more than posturing: Head-in-the-clouds playing with words; word-play, where the usual rules of language are changed and, usually, kept mostly secret…  :) 

Nothing else could be expected from the "analytic philosopher".
@Belfrager: If the point of the game is "salvation," I won't play. If I don't believe in your God, "salvation" is a culmination that's unreachable. I am not Sisyphus!
You can play the part, if you wish. But your anguish isn't an object of admiration…

Knocking at a wrong door. I'm a relentless sinner with no possible salvation and I like it.

.............................
I find the philosophical threads trinity (this one and the other two) to be conclusive.
There's more diversity at the kingdom of God's believers than at the intellectual desert of atheism.
Also verbiage is something alive and kicking... I finally understood the deep meaning of the Tower of Babel thing. :)


A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #458
I finally understood the deep meaning of the Tower of Babel thing.  :)

Good for you! When you finally realize that that's what and all there is from which to "construct" a philosophy, you'll be knocking at the door of Wisdom.
And when your knock is answered, from the path behind you, you'll realize that Wisdom is often outside in the same world you yourself roamed. If you are startled, at first, you'll come to share in the laughter such provoked!
Thus spake OakdaleFTL.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #459
Interlude: The evolution of faith

It's three billion years since someone
sparked this earth's -our own!
shy peptide broth…

A long wait… I suspect God
is more fascination
than wroth anticipation:
Perhapses enthrall…

Me too.
Else I'd fain quit theodicy.
Else I feign quit the odyssey.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #460
When you finally realize that that's what and all there is from which to "construct" a philosophy, you'll be knocking at the door of Wisdom.
And when your knock is answered, from the path behind you, you'll realize that Wisdom is often outside in the same world you yourself roamed. If you are startled, at first, you'll come to share in the laughter such provoked!
Thus spake OakdaleFTL.

:)
You're much better at the humorist side of life than at all the superficial confusion you make about basic concepts.
Now on I'll treat you by Master. You can call me Grasshopper.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #461
... No, kind sir! I am no one's Master. Perhaps not even my own! Although I would (were it in my nature) venerate Hotei, I still acclaim him a most congenial sage, worthy of the greatest respect.


I am tickled pink, to be taken for a fool! :)
_______________________________________
Just read Briggs' latest post... Thought you might like it. (Yeah, each and every one of you!)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #462
Is this the right thread to post the link to the Ada Lovelace Test (… a proposed successor to the Turing Test…)? Ah, well! If not, people make mistakes… No?!
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/forget-turing-the-lovelace-test-has-a-better-shot-at-spotting-ai


BTW: Azimov wrote a very short story many decades ago, in which all Man's effort went toward creating an artificial intelligence… The first question they asked it was "Is there a God?"
The machine answered: "There is now!" :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #463
The New Testament definition of God is actually very simple: Whatever you worship, that's God. If you treat Mammon with inordinate reverence, then that's your god. In the same, it says God is truth etc. As the opposite sides of the equation are perfectly convertible, it follows that if you value truth above all, then that's the same as worshipping God. This is the principle. Everything else is less relevant.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #464
It seems to me that such definition of God poses no problem.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #465
Whatever you worship, that's God.


Hypothetically speaking, if God was standing directly before me and I absolutely knew who he was, I would not worship him nor would he expect me to.  Does God have such an ego that he would demand worship or even welcome it?  Of course not, otherwise, he is not God.  
:knight: The Pragmatic Atheist
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #466
if God was standing directly before me [...]

He will... he will.
You'll have the opportunity to tell him all that. :)

I don't know if He will find it funny... He must have listen to that thousands of times before. Poor God, listening to the same conversation each time another atheist arrives up there... :)

Sorry, I forgot. Atheists don't go to Heaven, at the best, you'll go to Purgatory.
No interview with God.
A matter of attitude.

 

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #467
This is the principle. Everything else is less relevant.

This is why I mis-trust mystics and practitioners of term-logics: Reality be damned -they say– and proceed to do whatever the heck they want… Justified by what would "normally" be laughed at!

[Actually reading the New Testament might be considered a prerequisite. But apparently not everywhere… BTW: Does anyone here know what Gautama wrote, that's survived? I'd like to read it.]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Dunno. But, also, I don't care: I am not going to spend a lot of time disputing doctrinal squabbles.

Atheists will… They can't help it: They define themselves by their opposition to a Straw Man…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #468

This is the principle. Everything else is less relevant.

This is why I mis-trust mystics and practitioners of term-logics: Reality be damned -they say– and proceed to do whatever the heck they want… Justified by what would "normally" be laughed at!

Without the definition of reality it's really you who fails to consider reality. And you are in perfect company with all the rest of the atheists in this.


Atheists will… They can't help it: They define themselves by their opposition to a Straw Man…

Particularly straw men of their own making.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #469
Atheists will… They can't help it: They define themselves by their opposition to a Straw Man…Particularly straw men of their own making.


Do you two clowns run around painting black people as lazy, watermelon eating throwbacks in the same fashion you paint atheists as ignorant pushovers?  This says a lot about the very prejudiced personalities you two own, but do your best to hide. 

As an atheist, I believe it can be shown that considerations of simplicity for our existence support atheism rather than theism, though I must say that the atheistic conclusion of ‘no god’ must be held tentatively, if it is to be held rationally.  The simple reason for this is that, while science is very dependable, it is also, in some sense, also tentative.  However, I do think it is rational to believe that the universe can begin without a cause (based on singularity theory), and therefore any philosophical objection based on 'the causal principle' will fail.  You hold the position that the supernatural can transcend anything & everything, which I find much too problematic (more like impossible), to discuss rationally and/or scientifically. 

Now I could have said that the bigoted insults you two hurl at atheists here only proves that, beneath the surface, you are merely commonplace ignoramuses—but I didn't. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #470
You've confused (mixed up) my comments with ersi's… Be that as it may: When I chide atheists, I mean evangelical atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and the like; and their hangers-on.
Regular people who, from conscience or intellect, don't believe in the Christian or any other god get -from me- the same pass I give religionists who don't feel compelled to "save" me…

You are a special case, James! Your ability be offended is phenomenal — no doubt, you practice a lot. Still, there had to have been some native talent there to begin with.

Are there ignorant pushovers (as you call them) among the hangers-on? Oh, indeed: Lots! But among the naive, only the true believer sort bothers me, the fundamentalist atheist — I'd rather call them.
But do note: I don't seek them out! They find me…

BTW: No, I don't think I've ever actually painted a black person… But, then, I don't think "lazy" is a color.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #471
You are a special case, James! Your ability be offended is phenomenal — no doubt, you practice a lot. Still, there had to have been some native talent there to begin with.


If you knew me in person, perhaps you would wonder how I could possibly be so insulting.  When I first confronted some of Ersi's thoughts on Opera, he treated me very much like a child and I took it for awhile because the philosophy he expounded was completely new to me.  But when he took my ignorance of philosophy to mean total ignorance period, I had to fight back.  He even asked me for my IQ number and I told him the truth, though you will have to ask him if he believed me or not. 

When I followed Ersi here, I was surprised to find a whole bunch of Ersis (Ersae?).  The belittlement was plentiful when I first arrived here and has not diminished much since then.  I thought of just walking away from the mumbo-jumbo philosophical thinking of a bunch socially misfit eggheads, however, I decided to stay and not just to irritate anyone, but to hopefully say something relevant and gain insight on some things that I never before considered.  Btw, I do make mistakes sometimes. 

Atheism, for the first time, has theoretical scientific evidence that God cannot exist, but instead of arguing the fact with your impeccably logical thinking, you (or at least Ersi) poo-poo scientific theory in much the same way that you criticize atheists for doing it about God.  Hawking said philosophy was pretty much dead because philosophers were not keeping up with the latest in physics (if anyone but the elite physicists can actually do that), but philosophers didn't even seem to be trying to keep up. 

What was happening at that lawless instant of big bang singularity that is the scientific premise for the atheistic argument and is also inconsistent with the hypothesis that God created the earliest state of the universe?  If, like Ersi, you say 'science doesn't know for sure' then you are right, but is that all the ammunition you have to refute any and/or all scientific theories?  I stand at the ready.   :knight:  :cheers:

James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #472
I have no interest in "refuting" any scientific theory. Pseudo-science, however, piques my ire…
Atheism, for the first time, has theoretical scientific evidence that God cannot exist […]

That's a bold statement! Would you care to point me to this evidence?
If you'd only contend that the Big Bang might conceivably have occurred, say, on this basis… You're welcome to it. But I wouldn't go so far as to call it "evidence," and I'd down-grade such from scientific theory to scientific speculation. (Not that there's anything wrong with that… :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #473
That's a bold statement! Would you care to point me to this evidence?


Sure, the article here, http://infidels.org/library/modern/quentin_smith/bigbang.html  is more than 20 years old, but it's a good starting place.  There are of course, more recent developments in physics that add to the mounting evidence of God's nonexistence, but this is good for now.   :knight:  :zzz:
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #474
… I'm about to start Smith's section 4. and I have some preliminary thoughts:
His first two premises are equivocal. Equate the singularity with God, and "animate" has lost the crucial quality his argument depends on… But he gets to keep his original lawlessness!
As he says, finally, at the end of section 3., he's constrained himself to arguing against classical theism — and Western conceptions, at that.

I won't articulate an actual reply, just yet. Did you read my poem above? (It can be given a more expansive meaning… :)  Specifically, a reasonable rejection of Smith's third premise.) Scholastic reasoning doesn't do much for this argument, one way or the other, I think.
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Okay. (I'll read it again, sometime… I was familiar with some of the work he cited; and not that impressed by it originally.) Smith has added to the debate; a smidgen, at least.
But since he wanted to play the theology game too his additions were not conclusive of much… Either he is himself an evangelical atheist or "just another philosopher".
I'd like to see what actual philosophy of science he's done… But I don't expect much. (Oh! An evangelical! No doubt. :) )


Are you one too, James?
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I guess at this point we can return to the original question of this thread: The problem with atheism? "Too little basic human decency," Frenzie said… The fundamentalists of both (many, all?) persuasions who evidence this trait tend to be mental midgets, IMHO.
You have a different scale? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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