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Topic: The Problem with Atheism (Read 205329 times)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #300
How do scientists get started? They GUESS it! Now, what venerable sir in the video doesn't say is that a guess is a proposition, and that a conclusion is also a proposition. How do you tell one kind of proposition apart from the other? No, you cannot detect the distinction physically. You can only define it logically.

"They guess it!"  You didn't say or define what 'it' was.  Science does not start with a guess, it starts with a question or a problem.  If the conclusion answers the question or solves the problem then it is indeed a conclusion to the question/problem.  The conclusion (once verified), may bring up other new questions/problems, but the original question has been scientifically answered.  There is no ambiguity about it Ersi--you just want to go on playing these mindless word games. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #301
Of course I didn't say science was ambiguous. I said that the procedure of science mirrors the procedure of philosophy and is in fact borrowed from philosophy. And this is only a good thing. It is characteristic of good science.

And I'm saying that you don't reflect good science at all. For all your worship of science, why don't you emulate the scientific method here? Why don't you really give a demonstration of goodness of science, instead of bashing views that you see as if opposing or competing? As soon as you go through the motions of science properly, you will see I am actually not at odds with science at all. It's high time you get to it.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #302
Science became possible when the philosophical work of logical distinctions had been done, not the other way round. Without knowing the difference between the guess and the conclusion, nobody would know if they are guessing things, drawing conclusions, or beating around the bush, but logical people know the difference.

I can assure you that science would be just what it is today with or without philosophy.  Using fire and making stone age tools were crude forms of science using the scientific method and I doubt there was much philosophising about it:

1. Ask question--How kill woolly mammoth?
2. Formulate hypothesis--Use sharp stone on end of stick, make many holes in mammoth.
3. Perform experiment--We make 30 holes in mammoth. 
4. Collect data--Woolly mammoth dead.
5. Draw conclusions--Mammoth good food. 

So simple, a caveman could do it.  (A little levity never hurt anyone) 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #303
No, Iraq and Afghanistan would never be what they are without...
(Ooops...!)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #304

1. Ask question--How kill woolly mammoth?
2. Formulate hypothesis--Use sharp stone on end of stick, make many holes in mammoth.
3. Perform experiment--We make 30 holes in mammoth. 
4. Collect data--Woolly mammoth dead.
5. Draw conclusions--Mammoth good food. 

Your conclusion does nothing to answer the first question. Hence you were not following the scientific method. Also, you overlooked the reasonable cautious alternative hypothesis that puts a serious check on the experiment:

- Woolly mammoth mighty big. What if it kill me instead of me kill mammoth?

So you were not careful with logic either, when it could have saved your life.

Try again, and do it right this time. (Don't get too nervous about it. You will have infinite amount of tries here, just like in a computer game: At GAME OVER simply restart.)

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #305
Your conclusion does nothing to answer the first question. Hence you were not following the scientific method. Also, you overlooked the reasonable cautious alternative hypothesis that puts a serious check on the experiment:


1. Ask question--How kill woolly mammoth?
2. Use logic--Club philosopher so can eat.
3. ....
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #306

1. Ask question--How kill woolly mammoth?
2. Formulate hypothesis--Use sharp stone on end of stick, make many holes in mammoth.
3. Perform experiment--We make 30 holes in mammoth. 
4. Collect data--Woolly mammoth dead.
5. Draw conclusions--Mammoth good food. 

So simple, a caveman could do it.  (A little levity never hurt anyone)


Noting your last sentence, I offer:

6.  Consequences-Hair in soup.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #307
Your conclusion does nothing to answer the first question. Hence you were not following the scientific method. Also, you overlooked the reasonable cautious alternative hypothesis that puts a serious check on the experiment:

The linear, stepwise representation of the process of science is simplified, but it does get at least one thing right. It captures the core logic of science--testing ideas with evidence. However, this version of the scientific method is so simplified and rigid that it fails to accurately portray how real science works.

The process of science is iterative.  Science circles back on itself so that useful ideas are built upon and used to learn even more about the natural world. This often means that successive investigations of a topic lead back to the same question, but at deeper and deeper levels.  For example, in the mid-1800s a questioned was asked: How are traits inherited?  There was a conclusion, but the conclusion kept getting deeper as time passed and new investigation was done.  It went something like this:

How are traits inherited?
  In discrete packets…  (1850s)
     …on chromosomes…
         …via their DNA…
              …which is a double helix…
                  …and encodes proteins…  (1960s) 

The scientific process doesn't start with a guess and it doesn't necessarily have to start with a question.  There are many routes into the process—from serendipity (e.g. being hit on the head by the proverbial apple), to concern over a practical problem (e.g. finding a new treatment for diabetes), to a technological development (e.g. the launch of a more advanced telescope)—and scientists often begin an investigation by plain old poking around, tinkering, brainstorming, trying to make some new observations, chatting with colleagues about an idea, or just doing some reading. 

The process of science is a way of building knowledge about the universe—constructing new ideas that illuminate the world around us.  Those ideas are inherently tentative, but as they cycle through the process of science again and again and are tested and retested in different ways, we become increasingly confident in them.  Furthermore, through this same iterative process, ideas are modified, expanded, and combined into more powerful explanations such as, how the universe came into being.  (I know...wrong again!) 
James J


Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #309
Right that you got it wrong, but this time it's better than ever, surely better in terms of your tone, so congratulations. Now to some of the specifics of your wrongness.


The scientific process doesn't start with a guess and it doesn't necessarily have to start with a question.  There are many routes into the process—from serendipity (e.g. being hit on the head by the proverbial apple), to concern over a practical problem (e.g. finding a new treatment for diabetes), to a technological development (e.g. the launch of a more advanced telescope)—and scientists often begin an investigation by plain old poking around, tinkering, brainstorming, trying to make some new observations, chatting with colleagues about an idea, or just doing some reading.

Here at first you boldly contradict Feynman, who happened to be an actual scientist. Then you move on to conflate intuitive logic and philosophical problem-solving with engineerial procedures and in the end even apparently with business agreements. In a convoluted mind like yours it's understandable how it all seems like the same thing, but you should still see why I disagree when you file all these things under "science".

So, why do I disagree? For one, there are pretty relevant distinctions that need to be analysed. And second, after analysis, these different procedures and methods cannot be said to be on a par. They have a hierarchical structure. Some are superficially more prevalent (business agreements and engineerial methods), whereas at closer inspection, philosophy is really fundamental to everything else.

The obvious proof is that this analysis cannot be performed and the conclusion cannot be arrived at by means of archeological findings, newest telescope or microscope, or a series of business negotiations. These conclusions are arrived at by means of consciously directed logical reasoning, and only that. Another proof is that I already knocked you down in several rounds when you were asserting the opposite.


[Scientific] ideas are inherently tentative, but as they cycle through the process of science again and again and are tested and retested in different ways, we become increasingly confident in them.

If the ideas are inherently tentative, then they are not certain and never will be. They will be ever-tentative. Now, how can we be sure of this? Because of logic again, not because of poking around or brainstorming.

Sure enough, there are several types of logic too, and different types suit different temperaments. Some may prefer modal logic with its degrees of probability, or quantifiers that essentially emulate mathematical calculations. As for me, I prefer the classical trail of implications where conclusions follow necessarily. It doesn't get any more certain than this.

So, where do you place math in your system? (disregarding at the moment that you don't even have a system) Is math science like physics and therefore commendable or is math closer to philosophy consisting of pure logic and therefore worthless? Incidentally, here's something I found on the net about the views on math recently. I didnt write it, so it should be possible for you to agree with something there and get a clue http://aeon.co/magazine/world-views/what-is-left-for-mathematics-to-be-about/

 

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #310
Here at first you boldly contradict Feynman, who happened to be an actual scientist.

Most people are more than just their occupation in life.  Nobel prize-winning and Manhattan Project physicist Richard Feynman also considered himself an amateur comedian and liked to get cute sometimes.  I'm sure that few in his audience actually believed that scientists go around willy-nilly guessing at everything they see.  In a comedic sense, one can say that it boils down to beginning with a guess, therefore, Feynman was making a simple joke...what's your point?  Are you too emotionally stoic to recognize this?


The obvious proof is that this analysis cannot be performed and the conclusion cannot be arrived at by means of archeological findings, newest telescope or microscope, or a series of business negotiations. These conclusions are arrived at by means of consciously directed logical reasoning, and only that.

Philosophy reminds me of the little child who always asks 'why' (why you think that conclusion is the case), in response to every answer (conclusion), you give them (nothing wrong with that).  The philosophy of science (mankind's questions), has pushed science's conclusions back to the beginning of time to answer their questions and now that science has the final conclusion to the ultimate question, philosophy is at wit's end as to what to do next--so some philosophers (certainly not all), simply deny it. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #311
now that science has the final conclusion to the ultimate question

Huh?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #312

...and now that science has the final conclusion to the ultimate question, philosophy is at wit's end....

As far as I can tell from our exchange, the science's answer to the ultimate question is something like "There's no free will and no God, so you can do what you want! with some minor exceptions: thou shalt not speak of God positively, not be religious, and such." Sorry, but doesn't even begin to make sense.

For me, blind faith is all-bad. For you, blind faith in science is all-good, and any modicum of faith in anything else is bad. This is where we differ and I'm quite sure we differ also as to what the ultimate question is.

So, let's get back on track: Where do you place math? Did you read the article?

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #313
So, let's get back on track: Where do you place math? Did you read the article?

I read the article.  Mathematics can be viewed as a branch of logic, but of course, it depends on how you want to define logic.  If by logic you mean 1)--fully general principles of reasoning that would be generally valid (whether or not one could pack all of these principles into some finite human brain)--then we have no reason to think that math isn't logic. 

The sense in which it has been proved that math isn't logic is (to put it briefly):  You can't program a computer to spit out all and only the truths of number theory.  If you understand logic to mean 2)-- first order logic or 3)-- a collection of fully general principles which a person could in principle learn all of, and apply or 4)-- principles of good reasoning that no sane person could doubt, then that tells us that the mathematical truths are not all logical truths, however, that does not necessarily mean that they are incorrect. 

If by logic one means 5)--principles of good reasoning that aren't ontologically committal, then the waters start to get muddied when math is reduced to set theory and thus second order logic and one must ask what are the ontological commitments of second order logic?  It is at this point that I would have a hard time arguing the logic of math with you. 

As far as ‘where do you place math?’ I naturally like Tegmark’s mathematical universe hypothesis (MUH).   Of course, it has been logically criticized to the 'hypothesis shelf’, but with new advances in quantum physics, may be revived someday. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #314
But of course you see that Tegmark is a mystic…? :)

Just as you are a Western Christian — er, Anti-Christian! (Same thing, really. Read the Hsu article.)

Jump to <a href="https://dndsanctuary.eu/index.php?PHPSESSID=a1ad6df38ad3664e8add4be9832e4851&topic=407.msg22113#msg22113">the Mysticism thread, here[/url] — if you've grown confused…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #315
So, the way the article construes it, JS is a rigid-form Euclidian Platonist. I disagree that Plato himself was a rigid-mechanistic-form type. Such should not even properly be called Platonist. It's just that the article conceives of Platonism like this. More about this in my note below.

Anyway, you are such type, James, because knowing you, that's exactly how you'd construe Max Tegmark's ontology. Instead of thinking of matter as a holographic appearance to consciousness (which is how I do), you think of matter as solid composite forms, wherefrom consciousness emerges secondarily, as soon as the forms obtain sufficient complexity. That's positivism and atomism with all their flaws. No big deal though. Even Bertrand Russell formalised his ontology as "logical atomism". Somehow he couldn't do any better.

In mathematics, there is a further step from Euclidian geometry,* namely topology. In topology, all transformations of a mathematical object are thought to be the same object. You can think of the transition from Euclidian geometry to topology this way: When a dot moves, it forms a line. When a line moves, it forms a rectangle on a plane, a two-dimensional object. When a rectangle moves, it forms a three-dimensional solid. When a solid moves, it forms a hypersolid.

Now, movement is in time, but the topological space is eternity, not time. Instead of calling any instance of the transformation a thing, the entire process of the transformation is the real thing. Instead of thinking the cup and the doughnut separately, think of them as different appearances of the same thing, as in the illustration. The same way, instead of thinking of myself as I am now, I think of myself as I used to be, am, and will be, and not just as committed to this body here, but including pre- and afterlife. Simple.

Surely Max Tegmark knows all this and his theory is better interpreted in this light. He must know it because it's easy peasy. Even a two-year-old can understand these things, whereas Max Tegmark has been through university. He should know even better than a two-year-old.

The topological space in mathematics corresponds to what is called the causal world in spirituality. There's nothing causal in a single atom and adding an indefinite amount of atoms changes nothing in principle, particularly if the atom is committed to Euclidian space. Therefore a spiritual person feels the urge to answer these questions: Wherein does the dot/line/rectangle/solid/hypersolid move and why? Who says there's movement/transformation? The answer is consciousness, who has causal space as one of its aspects. When the mathematician says, "The dot moves..." he is presupposing consciousness as the observer. Any scientific experiment also works the same way, by presupposing consciousness as the observer. This is a logically necessary presupposition.

This presupposition is logically necessary, but not only in a barren sense. Corollaries from this presupposition actually make sense any way you look at it. Inert matter, atomic or otherwise, construed as devoid of consciousness, cannot have causal powers, whereas consciousness devoid of matter can have it just fine. Consciousness is the observer, the philosophical subject. What is it that is being observed? It's the aspects of consciousness itself, which are analytically or logically separable, as in thought. When an aspect is separated in thought, it becomes perceptible in imagination, and in imagination you can easily take a dream for reality. We do it all the time and so do our children and pets.

And that's all there is to matter. Instead of making God unnecessary, the scientific conclusion is that God is omnipresent as all-pervading spirit, the essence of every thing and the soul of every being.

------------------
* The critics of Platonism, including the article I gave, seem to conceive of Platonic forms as Euclidian solids. Aristotle also criticised this kind of ontology in his Metaphysics, but without mentioning Plato. The way I interpret it, this is how Aristotle tacitly admitted that he was not criticising Plato, whereas interpreters of Aristotle think he was criticising Plato's theory of forms. Such interpretation cannot hold because Aristotle himself is committed to a hylomorphic theory of forms, i.e. to a specific theory of forms, so therefore he was criticising a specific other theory of forms, not theory of forms as such, generically dismissed as Platonic forms, even though Aristotle does not mention Plato in connection of the specific theory under criticism.

The correct interpretation of so-called Platonic forms is topological or holographical, which is how Plotinus interprets it. And I side with Potinus. Plato's writings are difficult to interpret directly because he wrote dialogues, so you never know which literary character exactly represents Plato's point of view. Aristotle and Plotinus are easier to interpret because they wrote treatises.

PS Oakdale, instead of constant destructive criticism, why not set out an ontological model of your own too?

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #316
The same way, instead of thinking of myself as I am now, I think of myself as I used to be, am, and will be, and not just as committed to this body here, but including pre- and afterlife. Simple.

Simple but tricky. You can't think of yourself as you used to be, you think as you are now with the "now-memory" of what you used to be. Forwards, you think with your "now-imagination". You are always trapped into present. Each present.

Our Time slices inexorably reality. Only the Time of God could be comparable with the topology analogy, not our time. Why is that so, I don't know.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #317
Tricky but possible with concentrated methodical effort. Near-impossible when you don't even try. But yes, it's tricky exactly the way you describe.

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #318
Therefore a spiritual person feels the urge to answer these questions: Wherein does the dot/line/rectangle/solid/hypersolid move and why? Who says there's movement/transformation? The answer is consciousness, who has causal space as one of its aspects. When the mathematician says, "The dot moves..." he is presupposing consciousness as the observer.


If physics is correct, and I believe it is, there was no consciousness when time began.  Everything was set in motion and space was created by the energy released at the instant of the big bang and then the laws of nature and physics took over from there.  Consciousness necessarily came afterwards as a result of that movement, as did space. 

I will admit that there are theories in quantum physics that suggest that nothing actually exists in the universe until it is observed consciously and therefore, there are vast areas of the universe that actually haven't been determined yet because we have yet to look at them.  Since physics isn't your thing, I doubt that you would buy this and besides this is still on the drawing board because how can we know that those areas have not been observed by consciousness somewhere else in the universe. 



This is a logically necessary presupposition.

Only for you Ersi, I am learning to qualify my statements better, logically you should already be doing this. 


Inert matter, atomic or otherwise, construed as devoid of consciousness, cannot have causal powers, whereas consciousness devoid of matter can have it just fine.

I partially agree, but it is the laws governing matter that has the causal power to bring about consciousness.  Consciousness as we know it in this universe only came about when matter arranged itself sufficiently enough (by the laws of nature), for consciousness to arise. 


And that's all there is to matter. Instead of making God unnecessary, the scientific conclusion is that God is omnipresent as all-pervading spirit, the essence of every thing and the soul of every being.

Sort of an amalgamated force of life, which, like most concepts of god, is just beyond the ken of us mere mortals (Hawking included, of course).   There may be a concept (and only a concept), such as this that appears to our consciousness to be at work in the universe, but we shouldn't carry this too far by deifying a mere concept or appearance.  You, as a philosopher, take simple things to the extreme. 
James J


Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #320
PS Oakdale, instead of constant destructive criticism, why not set out an ontological model of your own too?

Why is counter-example and needful complication seen as destructive?

Put another way: Consider me a mystic. You have but to give up the life you've lived till now and follow me; then, you'll understand! :)
You see, Grasshopper, I don't have all the answers. Indeed, I don't have any great need of such. I am but a gadfly… Your mere discomfort at my minuscule piques is a pleasure, to me: It means you are capable of learning. Maybe.

As you (and others) should recall, I have a serious tendency to nominalism. I'd argue, it's in reaction (over-reaction? — perhaps) to others' idealism… But that doesn't mean I'd pick that hill to die on. It's merely an inclination that suits my intellect.
Your inclination is toward noumenism. So, of course, your only recourse is a mystical understanding… And even you will admit that the only justification of such is personal experience: Whoever doesn't attempt to live their life by such percepts has not understood, and cannot.
As life is short and gurus many, I'd prefer rational argument… I have time for that. Maybe.


Does ontology precede epistemology? Does logic precede them both? Does (*shock-shudder*) grammar precede them all?


But I've lost track of the main question: What's the problem with atheism?


One simple answer is that it's -on the model of Christianity- become evangelical…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #321
Pondering the imponderable is a common pastime…

Regarding Time and the Big Bang:
The scales of temperature lend themselves to less frivolous thoughts. Degrees Fahrenheit and degrees Celsius are proportional in size, five to nine, but they count up and down from different zero points. The bottomless negatives in these scales make no sense below -273º C, or -459.4º F, because at that point there is no heat at all; no movement of molecules. The Kelvin scale takes that point as zero and counts upward only, thus 0º K = -273º C.

What I find interesting, then, is that we can nevertheless devise bottomless scales of temperature that do make sense at all points. Thus we might take our zero as the old 0º C, and our 1 as the old 1º C, but then we might take our upward degrees as progressively larger than the Celsius degrees, and our descending ones as progressively smaller. Specifically, having taken our first degree above zero as 1º C, we might inflate our next degree by the slight factor of 1/273, and the next by that factor twice over, and so on up, while correspondingly shrinking all degrees from zero downward. The general formula is this:
n degrees on the new scale, positive or negative, is equal to 274n/273n-1 in degrees Kelvin.*
What is interesting about this is that it shows the existence or nonexistence of a bottom temperature to be a question not of physics but merely of conventional measurement, even though the presence or absence of heat is a matter of physical fact. Our novel scale squeezes infinitely many degrees between 0º C and 0º K. It is a logarithmic scale. Or, we could retort, the usual scales are logarithmic relative to it.
A similar trick can be played on the measurement of time, for the comfort of people (not me, not you) who puzzle about what could have been going on before the Big Bang. By switching to a logarithmic scale, we can push the Big Bang back infinitely far, thereby declaring that there was always a world and never the Bang. Steven Weinberg's first three minutes expand to half an eternity. Scientific theory carries over intact, translated into the new units. But the translation calls for a compensatory rescaling of spatial measures, with the unwelcome result that past sizes are inflated and future ones are deflated. Atoms of the remote past take on cosmic proportions

(from the end of Quine's article on units, in Quiddities)
—————————————
* That's 274 to the nth power divided by 273 to the n minus 1-th power… (I couldn't get the blockquote to accept the expression! Help? :))
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #322
But I've lost track of the main question: What's the problem with atheism?

One simple answer is that it's -on the model of Christianity- become evangelical…

Perhaps seemingly so on this forum or the Internet.  The problem with atheism is that it is disruptive in a world where some sort of a God is believed in by so many.  Atheism is still a social stigma and declaring to be an atheist is not easy for many, especially the more timid and meek people of this world (hence the seemingly large number of militant atheists).  I’m sure that the countable number of atheists today is underestimated due to the number of uncounted closet atheists, some of whom openly state that they believe in God just to go with the flow and not rock the boat. 

We seldom discuss religion in my family simply because of the diversity of beliefs amongst us and it being one of those ‘live and let live’ things that can only weaken a family with controversy.  The same goes for most of my real friends, although, with my more intellectual real friends--anything goes.  As Ersi once said in a post on Opera “Imaginary friends have the advantage of being imaginary.”, at the risk of misinterpreting Ersi (yet again), I consider my Internet friends, and myself in relation to them, to be a bit imaginary.  Therefore, the advantage that I see is that, on an Internet forum such as this, I can really let go and say exactly what’s on my mind without bringing a lot of attention to my 'real-world' self.  I'm certainly not ashamed of my beliefs, nor do I deny them, I simply don't go out of my way to make life difficult for me in a God-believing world. 
James J

Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #323
When I think of "militant atheists" I imagine people like Madalyn Murray O'Hair; and the infamous trio of Dawkins, Hitchens and Harris.
I -personally- find evangelical Atheists as annoying as evangelical Christians… Both are specially annoying when they try to use the mechanisms of government to gain ascendency and conformity.
The main difference I see there is that the atheists prefer top-down government control whereas most Christians would prefer -or, at least, be satisfied with- local control. Can you guess which group gets my grudging support, and why? :)
There are so few evangelical (as opposed to entrepreneurial…!) Buddhists that I don't count them. Islamists are a category all by themselves… (My views might not be known to you, so I'll condense: Quarantine. You can guess the rest.) Other religions (oddly, we must include Judaism…) don't evangelize, really. So, they don't present a problem, to me.
Nor should they to you… But:

If I understand you correctly, you're a "free thinker" who wants others to accept chains on their thinking, unless they agree with you…so you can feel more comfortable about holding your beliefs? (The militant gays have successfully followed this battle plan, you must know.) Your stated position, that for peace and tranquility you must -or, at least, prefer- to mute your raging rightness, because You are still outnumbered strikes me as facile.
I suspect most people most times have been mostly agnostic/atheist/apathetic. You can't reasonably claim to be a free-thinker and expect others to shut-T-F-up… And, by the same token, most people couldn't care less what your religious practices or views are.
That is to say, your self-importance is more a symptom than a badge…

(Remember: I'm as imaginary as you!)

Also, keep in mind:
It's not your fault that you're an intellectual wimp. On your theory, you never had a choice… But, likewise, neither did I. So, should you "choose" to berate me or call foul! — nothing you say can have any justificatory force; there are no justifications, on your view — only effects radiating from the Big Bang.
———————————————————
The above is mostly cold, hard logic that shows in relief why your deterministic reductionism is incoherent.
Don't you agree? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: The Problem with Atheism

Reply #324
Also, keep in mind:
It's not your fault that you're an intellectual wimp.


I have never claimed to be an intellectual giant (such as yourself?), but if you think that by attempting to crudely point that out to me puffs you up a little bit more then hey--knock yourself out. 

The above is mostly cold, hard logic that shows in relief why your deterministic reductionism is incoherent.
Don't you agree?


The illusion of control is so complete in humans that people will probably forever think and act as if they have it, even if they truly believe that they don’t.  I must ask you, where does consciousness get the power to redirect molecular action that supersedes what the laws of physics and nature dictate?  Through what process does the brain create this new force that would necessarily be more powerful than all the other known forces of nature?  Your canned answer would be (and forever more be), ‘science isn’t finished yet’ and Ersi would claim that it is a philosophically logical necessity to have free will, or some such gibberish, neither of which satisfactorily answers anything.   

Is it that you guys think that the whole concept of consciousness itself would be a cruel joke if you did not have the ability to get up - or not - and get a drink of water?  I doubt that anyone’s life would really change that much because of this realization—some egos that I know of would come down a few notches, but other than that, not much else would happen. 

James J