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Topic: The Decline of Religion in Europe (Read 66534 times)

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #100 –
Trump is a typical American product and no different from any other American product.
Interesting to see Americans rejecting their own identity, do they want to turn Europeans?  :lol:

Only preppers and maniac gun owners are still the last true Americans. The ones that beaten the English.
Luck to them, they will need it.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #101 –
Good point there and Americans in general have a flimsy idea of the political world as they are brought up with propaganda of a super nationalism and flag waving mentality. When you see thir so-called political rallies and such it is llike a child convention and they would never make Europeans as they are hopeless on geography.  :devil:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #102 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
Good point there and Americans in general have a flimsy idea of the political world as they are brought up with propaganda of a super nationalism and flag waving mentality.

You and your Portuguese friend are hopelessly ignorant of what all Americans are about. The Portuguese is using a portion of the Portuguese flag and you're using a painting of your homosexual hero.

Over 300,000,000 Americans, and the two of you have all of them figured out.
Quote
Armando Vara has become the latest Portuguese ex-government official to be arrested as part of an ongoing corruption investigation.

The 61-year-old former Socialist Party politician is suspected of tax fraud, corruption and money laundering. He was detained following searches of his home, a bank and business premises, according to a statement from the attorney general.
...hence all Portuguese are corrupt.

Quote
Leaders in the Presbyterian Church in Ireland felt “a deep sense of sorrow” after a decision by the Church of Scotland to allow people in same-sex civil partnerships to serve as ministers and deacons.

The Scottish decision was made by the General Assembly on the Mound in Edinburgh on Saturday, where the motion was passed by 309 votes to 182.
...all Scots are gay.

That's the way the two of you think. For shame.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #104 –
Firstly for an educated American you are very weak.

You glibly fall into line with the rubbish that the man in the picture was queer. So seeing you are an ex-colonists I will make it as simple as one can. William 3rd was never of the disgusting side you smarm on. He had only two great loves and they were his wife and the other the Protestant Faith. His letters to his wife also embody such and the nasty historical lie came about very simply. He was a direct man and when a member of the palace staff (maybe he was a poof) got short shrift from the King maliciously spread a tale about William. As it happened the king found out and he was not very disposed to the man and asked why the deuce he came up with that disgusting lie.

Yes the Kirk did vote as they did and losing members due to it and the rest of the religious world is not in that direction. As for corruption elsewhere including Portugal how hamfisted is that from an intelligent ex-colonist?? From the country where corruption has been part of everything for so long it is part of things. Blacks who stil didn't have the vote in the 1960's the KKK who ran city councils, States, police for decades, McCarthyism that flourished with an anti-democracy standpoint, some States with regular governors done for corruption (Illinois an excellent example!), Head of state having to resign for his participation in bad stuff, Even in government departments which look into health and law behaviour under their watch being too close to corporates who get off with things. Oh and police forces thatthink they are it and shoot and beat as part of the job. Many of those same government plonkers moving to work for the corporates they are meant to check on.  The list is endless so when you pick on the occasional thing elsewhere it is laughable when you consider the depth of things in the country that boasts to what it is. It would be better shutting the mouth but that corruption extends beyond the boundaries to all sorts of basd coutries that contracit what your corner is supposed to be against! Your desperation and frustration show when you try to hit back as to the proportions of Americans who are simple and just accept just about anything so read on dear house monk!

As for my stance that Yanks are not very indepth on politics I fully stand by that position. You are dominated by 2 parties both of which are heavily controlled by the corporate controllers. The Republicans by the more in your face ones and the Obama side by the "liberal" corporates. The system sucks because only two sich party machines are allowed to be valid and you damn well know it. As for trying to take the corner that there are vast numbers of Americans who are broader like you means nothing because if they exist they have no chance of getting anyone in except the Reps or Dems. Just because you might not think you fit into my stance you equally ignore the hard fact that millions over there just go along with what passes for a system. Those that might think like you haven't a chance of hell in getting anyone into office but the controlled Democrats or Republicans.

It doesn't matter a damn which of the two are in when the lesser of two evils thinking is excusingly predominately the mindset. Obama has been just as warlike as GW Bush and in fact probably killed more especially with drones so the farce is a farce. There will of course be millions of Americans who would like a wider choice and may even have a support for a party, etc outside of the 2 big barons but know they have no damn choice or opportunity but at the same time mumph about the outsiders shaking heads at what is meant to be democracy but isn't. Amongst those millions in the 300 million who are bright sparks there are also millions who are so elementary and brained they will just accept what they are fed and propagated with and who they often elect proves that well enough. So there may well be 300 million in the land of the free and home of the brave baloney but the numbers who are not up to what you would stand for or claim are in legions whether you like to suitably ignore such.  :whistle:

ps. One is safer in Portugal than the increasing violent and police state irony over the pond!  :doh:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #105 –
Try some bicarbonate of soda, RJ… It'll do you a world of good! :)
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Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #106 –
Remember and nod to your picture of McCarthy
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #107 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

I defend that the Mass must be said in Latin.

Even in the Latin Mass, an important portion of the mass was not in Latin. I think most of you can figure out what that portion is:



"The Mass should be celebrated in the same language in which the announcements about the collection are made". - Hans Kung, Vatican II.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #108 –
Quote from: Jochie on

Quote from: Belfrager on

I defend that the Mass must be said in Latin.

Even in the Latin Mass, an important portion of the mass was not in Latin. I think most of you can figure out what that portion is:



"The Mass should be celebrated in the same language in which the announcements about the collection are made". - Hans Kung, Vatican II.



"The Mass must be spoken in Latin"? Says who?

The problem then becomes that the Mass is only understandable by the handful of priests who have been taught Latin. The common people--- the people Jesus is really trying to reach--- get shut out.

Yep--- sounds like a plan.

Read your Bible, specifically the Gospels-- and understand that Jesus was trying to reach the lost--- the very people that a Latin mass spoken in a place where Latin is not the common language doesn't reach. If Jesus were to speak to you in person today--- would He use a language you couldn't hope to understand or would He use your mother tongue? (Remember who He is-- He speaks all languages fluently.)
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #109 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
they would never make Europeans as they are hopeless on geography.   :devil:

Okay, wise guy, point to Lincoln County, Nevada on the map for us. It should be easy considering that it's geographically it's larger than some European countries. I'll make it even easier for you. Point to Nye County, it's larger still and has more importance than some European countries you mock Americans for not knowing.

What can't do it? Ignorant Brits with no knowledge of geography....

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #110 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
"The Mass must be spoken in Latin"? Says who?

The problem then becomes that the Mass is only understandable by the handful of priests who have been taught Latin. The common people--- the people Jesus is really trying to reach--- get shut out.

Yep--- sounds like a plan.

Read your Bible, specifically the Gospels-- and understand that Jesus was trying to reach the lost--- the very people that a Latin mass spoken in a place where Latin is not the common language doesn't reach. If Jesus were to speak to you in person today--- would He use a language you couldn't hope to understand or would He use your mother tongue? (Remember who He is-- He speaks all languages fluently.)

Say it again?
Since when protestant opinions matters for Catholic issues dear mjm?

If you, I wouldn't be too much worried with what language Jesus would use to address you, just remember the temple's merchants episode... you'll understand His language, oh yes.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #111 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
"The Mass must be spoken in Latin"? Says who?

The problem then becomes that the Mass is only understandable by the handful of priests who have been taught Latin. The common people--- the people Jesus is really trying to reach--- get shut out.

Yep--- sounds like a plan.

Read your Bible, specifically the Gospels-- and understand that Jesus was trying to reach the lost--- the very people that a Latin mass spoken in a place where Latin is not the common language doesn't reach. If Jesus were to speak to you in person today--- would He use a language you couldn't hope to understand or would He use your mother tongue? (Remember who He is-- He speaks all languages fluently.)

Say it again?
Since when protestant opinions matters for Catholic issues dear mjm?

If you, I wouldn't be too much worried with what language Jesus would use to address you, just remember the temple's merchants episode... you'll understand His language, oh yes.


Bel---- That's TWICE that I know about that you've accused me of taking unjust gain. Third time---- you'd better be able to PROVE IT----I give no quarter* to those who falsely accuse.

(* "No quarter" doesn't refer to the coin. It's an old term that meant surrender-- if it would be accepted at all-- serious doubt of that-- would be on the victor's terms. Right now, I'm not feeling terribly generous in any terms I might accept--- accusation of unjust gain being what it is.)
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #112 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Bel---- That's TWICE that I know about that you've accused me of taking unjust gain. Third time---- you'd better be able to PROVE IT----I give no quarter* to those who falsely accuse.

Unjust gain of what? and already twice? I don't even know what are you talking about but since you've highlighted the temple's merchants allegory, who do you think it applies? to the Church of Peter and it's doctrine, as stated since Peter until currently Francis I, in direct succession, or to the protestant deviations and heresies driven in order to legitimate profit?

You'll do better learning and studying your own religion, who those Calvinos and Luteros were, what they've done and what for, instead of showing the results of what illiterate readings of the Bible can provoke.

To me, your gains, just or unjust, are totally irrelevant, not my business.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #113 –
Belfrager----- that's it. Prove, if you can, that I ever even once took a dime in any church--- that I ever conducted commercial business in any church, RC or Protestant.

Come on, big mouth.... you can make the charge, can you PROVE IT????

Or are you just "flapping your jaw" because you enjoy the exercise?
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #114 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Belfrager----- that's it. Prove, if you can, that I ever even once took a dime in any church--- that I ever conducted commercial business in any church, RC or Protestant.

Are you entering into hallucination? Have I ever accused you of stealing money from anywhere, churches or not churches?
Read my posts one hundred times until you finally be able of understanding it's content. Ask if someone can help you, I have no more patience for such hysteria.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #115 –
That's sorta what I thought. You can say stuff--- but when it comes time to PROVE IT you can't--- and won't even try.

You as much as said Jesus is going to whip me and overturn my table for doing business in the church. Can you not back this up? Why or why not? (Could be there is no proof?--- Nahhhh-- it couldn't be that.)

Why am I not surprised?
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #116 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
You as much as said Jesus is going to whip me and overturn my table for doing business in the church

If I remember correctly, his umbrage wasn't actually over doing business in the temple. Back then, you had to exchange your standard coins for temple ones at an unfavorable exchange rate. This explains his choice of words that translates into "den of thieves" and why he overturned the money changers' tables. The business being conducted was corrupt from the moment one stepped in.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #117 –
Quote from: Midnight Raccoon on

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
You as much as said Jesus is going to whip me and overturn my table for doing business in the church

If I remember correctly, his umbrage wasn't actually over doing business in the temple. Back then, you had to exchange your standard coins for temple ones at an unfavorable exchange rate. This explains his choice of words that translates into "den of thieves" and why he overturned the money changers' tables. The business being conducted was corrupt from the moment one stepped in.


That, and selling animals (for the sacrifices) probably also at unfair pricing.

It's really the charge of corruption that I'm calling Bel out on. If he can prove that I took dollars from the oil companies, or he can prove that I'm conducting corrupt business in the church-- or is he just throwing charges around when he can't back his other arguments any other way. Which is what I really think is happening.

But then, what do I know? I'm just a hopelessly ignorant American who would sell out his brother for a dollar (to hear Belfrager tell it). Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of it.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #118 –
There has always been an argument as to whether Peter ever set foot in Rome. However the Roman Catholic Church has always created this spiritual myth that they were founded by him which is a bit of religious nonsense. The Christian Church was spread and in different areas it was organised differently and that included levels of clergy and structures, etc. In due time with the city of Rome being the capital of an empire it became the strongest and as we know in history they bashed everyone else under their imperial hammer.  It was and is a mixture of Christianity and Paganism. Other religions in the Middle East had a "Queen of Heaven" and prayer beads also used and the RC church jumped on that bandwagon even the poky hats came from Babylon styles. Corruption was endemic and not just in the routine priesthood but all the way up to the Vatican and one Pope after another was a corrupt as Hell. Money, power, sexual deviation the lot. When Martin Luther went to Rome he was stunned and deeply shocked by these levels of evil and terrible curses and it was the falseness of Rome that created the Reformation.

That wide corruption continued to modern times. Ireland has had 2 investigations into wrong doing - one for the Dublin Archdiocese and the other for the rest of the country. Here in Scotland we have just had a result of an investigation into the RC Church here and they have had to apologise. I can remember their Bishop of the Western Isles had 2 mistresses, one after the other and in Ireland a Bishop offered a woman £20,000 to keep her mouth shut on a 15 year old son. Australia has had it so have places in Europe, South America, Canada, USA, etc.  Over a year or so back the cardinal in charge of RC's in Scotland had to resign as 3 men, two of them priests and the other who left the priesthood revealed they had been sexually harmed by the cardinal. Several years before that a priest in a Glasgow city centre church had to step down due to his drink and sex problems as he was taking prostitutes into the house.  Across the pond there have been cases of Bishoprics going into receivership due to financial claims.

In Italy the Pope before that wee wretch arch-conservative, John Paul died within 2 months in the position. He was making changes including investigating the Vatican Bank for money laundering. He was also popular amongst many in the rank and file of the Church of Rome. The morning he was found dead a bishop had been seen walking up and down by a Swiss guard outside the building in the early hours looking panic-like. The dead Pope who was trying to change things had as his secretary a cardinal who was in that rogue and corrupt Masonic Lodge P2. He took the Popes private papers away his slippers, glasses, etc. The nun who discovered the Pope thought it odd and later asked why there was not an autopsy only to be told off and that such was not done on a Pope. That was a lie as one who died suddenly in the early 19th century had one!

That Pope had also suspended Cardinal Cody of Chicago for alleged financial (there were also nearly 2 dozen suspended priests in the Diocese as well) and other misconduct but when John Paul came in he uplifted that and stopped the investigations at Chicago. Cody when John Paul visited America gave him a gift of a neat box with $50,000 in it. Checks on the vatican Bank were suspended too.

For all then ceremonial, "Princes of the Church," and acting like a sovereign State as well as a church it had a lot wrong with it. The over the top rituals and pomp, etc are far away from the ordinary man from Galilee. In Yugoslavia during WW2 the man in charge of a concentration camp full of Serbs held by Bosnian RC's was a Monsigneur of the Church. Legions of Serbs were shot and tens of thousands forced to become RC's and keep away from the Orthodox. in one history book I noted senior clerics in Yugoslavia giving visiting Nazi officers the Nazi salute. In South Vietnam during that sad conflict the Archbishop of NYC RC's called US troops "Christ's soldiers" in a country that was Buddhist but a regime influenced by RC leaders.

Now I cannot deny that there are serious and in their own way, Godly people in the Roman Faith but as a tradition it falls short in the Christian way of simplicity, etc. In the Middle Ages they stopped priest for being married yet sexual immorality has continued right until now. Those in Rome who would condemn the Reformation should ask themselves why it happened and why it was so widespread. Even in France well before the Revolution there were a steady number of aristocratic and well placed people moving to the Protestant fait. Then came the cancelling of the Treaty of Nantes guaranteeing Protestant freedom. At the masacre of st Bartholomew the bells tolled to start the mass killing of Protestants. Some histrians had said that the growth of the Reformers in France could have avoided the terrible violence of the revolution but Rome was determined.

I have Roman Catholic friends who attend their local church but when we have any general chat about things and the continued corruptions of falseness they go quiet rather than try and answer it. Martin Luther was a priest in Germany, John Knox and Wishart who led the Scottish Reformation had been priests but realised their church had drifted and fell away from basic Christianity and filled things with those rituals and piles of would-be bones of supposed saints, etc.  And to throw in another point at the Reformation in Scotland their were 3,000 illegitimate children attached to convents, etc as their parents were priests and nuns! So although i respect everyone's rights to follow their way the Reformation was a telling time, widened life and took Christianity out of the dark ages and odd mixtures of faith.

Happy to have RC friends whilst exceedingly proud to be a Protestant and champion of the Christian Reformation as it made up for the take over of early Christianity by power hungry and false people!

No Surrender (!)
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #119 –
@mjmsprt40
All that Belfrager said was, "If you, I wouldn't be too much worried with what language Jesus would use to address you, just remember the temple's merchants episode... you'll understand His language, oh yes." By itself, this looks more like a point about understanding a message, not being accused of sin. Unless your gripe with him goes way back.

By the way, the Catholic interpretation of the cleaning of the temple is way milder than the Protestant interpretation. Protestants were fundies of their time (and they keep spawning the fundies of our time), while Catholics are the Pharisees of all times. Pharisees are very good at interpreting the scriptures in their own favor and that's what they have carefully done in case of the temple's merchants episode. They interpret it rather moderately.

@Belfrager
I have to defend the poor old Lutero and Calvino a bit. During the time of Lutero and Calvino, the Pope and the Church were being naughty and desperately begging for something very bad to happen to themselves. Reformation gave a necessary lesson.

Lutero was an intellectual nobody (i.e. intellectually a nobody) with a sensitive moral nerve that struck a chord with lots of people when he took up the issue of sales of indulgences. The Pope sent a nuncio to shut Lutero up on the topic by means of superior argumentation, but Reformation exploded in the hands of the nuncio. Now, since Lutero was intellectually a nobody, in my view it makes it the fault of the nuncio, of the Pope, and of the Church that Reformation exploded. The Catholic functionaries involved in the case ended up helping Reformation by acting like blue meanies.

Sales of indulgences was morally wrong. There cannot be any intellectual dispute about this. It's a moral issue. It's directly comparable to merchants in the temple! The silly attitude of the Pope('s nuncio) was that they can talk any black into white by means of doctrinal guidelines and papal bulls (which were the equivalent of EU directives of that time). Unfortunately for the Church, the moral resistance was overloading and many people sided with Lutero and Calvino - for moral and social reasons, none other. The reasons to stay true to the Catholic tradition had been made ineffective by the Church itself.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #120 –
The roman Catholic church was not being true to Christianity at all. It warped it about into a load of addition stuff away from the simply message of Christ himself and the Disciples. The pomp, show and controls of everyone only illustrate that. Those that created the reformation did not just do it for social or other general reasons but religious ones. The more that the internal corruptions of Rome were studied it became obvious to them they had been conned. Even basic things like the word 'saint' were misused and that so many Popes were dictators, sex mad,adulterers along with power mad enhances my stance. Throw in as an extra the titles claimed by them worship of 'holy relics', date Mary went to Heaven (made up) and some of the generality I mention. Acting like a Church and a sovereign State is not right nor Christian.The old papal States matter is another disgrace and by the way they were run by terror and another contradiction. Other things like the sacrifice of Jesus in services, confessional where a man gives absolution when Christianity says that no man comes between God and man. Communion where the bread and wine become actually the body and blood of Christ yet another concern. In Protestantism it is indicated to be a symbol of such relating to the last supper. I dare say in the early days of the Roman church setting up a heavy controlling system was easy due to people being simple and not educated but over the centuries it got out of control and anyone who had the nerve to query or challenge anything was hardly treated very considerately. Burning at the stake, boiled in oil, tortured and so on That the Waldensians managed to survive in Italy itself is almost a miracle. I would further stand again by my saying that RC's have the same rights as everyone else and i do not have any ill feeling towards the individuals and took a young nun out for a meal once and a chat (second one actually!) and was interesting to understand how she personally felt about male only clergy or marriage for them. Yet the RC Church accepted in a small group of Church of England clergy who were married! That was because they moaned about women clergy being allowed (first woman bishop too recently)' It is one thing having the right to be what one wants but also for each to challenge!

Due to the way questioners were dealt with the feeling was that the corruptions both human morally and spiritually could not be altered hence the break. Over time the church accommodated corrupt regimes, police, gangsters, Mafia money and so on. The Pope I mentioned who died suddenly was pushing for change and enlightenment but as I also showed who was he replaced with but John Paul and the one after him little different. Both John Paul and the German Pope said the same stance. Both said that Protestantism was perverse and that the Reformed ministry was not a proper one but they were both lucky as didn't say it in my presence!  :D
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #121 –
Quote from: ersi on
@Belfrager
I have to defend the poor old Lutero and Calvino a bit. During the time of Lutero and Calvino, the Pope and the Church were being naughty and desperately begging for something very bad to happen to themselves. Reformation gave a necessary lesson.

What "lesson" do you refer to? the emergence of the low classes?
Quote from: ersi on
The Pope sent a nuncio to shut Lutero up on the topic by means of superior argumentation, but Reformation exploded in the hands of the nuncio. Now, since Lutero was intellectually a nobody, in my view it makes it the fault of the nuncio, of the Pope, and of the Church that Reformation exploded.

I agree. Lutero and his followers should had been immediately "neutralized" as Americans uses to say.
Quote from: ersi on
Sales of indulgences was morally wrong. There cannot be any intellectual dispute about this.


Very well, at least one notes that you've been paying some attention to History of Religions.
Unfortunately, your approach lacks the social, economical and civilizational perspective of the XV and XVI centuries, therefore resulting into some disconnected fragments that leads you to wrong and even dangerous conclusions.

Protestantism is not the result of Church's mistakes, abuses or whatsoever, it's not a "reformation" and even much much less, it's not any form of moral redemption.
Protestantism it's simply the aspiration of the non nobility classes to be at the same political and social role than nobility, based in the simple fact that they had money.
Money they wanted to use to buy a de jurae status besides the de facto status they already had. And they were not allowed to by the intellectual models that explained the world at those times.

The theoretic model of the late medieval world was made and developed by the only intellectuals of the time, the Church. Therefore, strategically, protestantism needed to attack the Church, to masquerade itself into some sort of religion discordance and to impose it socially as they did, by terror and bloody populism.

It's not possible to analyze the emergence of protestantism if not considering the social struggling that marks the end of an era, the medieval era, and the transition for another one, the so called renaissance.

The Catholic Church doesn't represented nor it should ever represent the times of Men but the Time of God. It can't change fast, it can't change according each generation desires, moods and fashions. For that, there's protestantism.

So ersi, I'm sure that if you take into account a global envision about what lead to the protestantism deviation you'll see things differently from your current point of view.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #122 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
So ersi, I'm sure that if you take into account a global envision about what lead to the protestantism deviation you'll see things differently from your current point of view.

Religion is a deviation from _______________ .

Fill in the blank.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #123 –
Finally.....this thread returns to it's roots about why Europe is in a stage of declination regarding religion.
Well done guys.  :cheers:


 

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #124 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

What "lesson" do you refer to? the emergence of the low classes?

The fact that the Pope tried to extinguish Reformation, but instead it exploded in his hands.

Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: ersi on
Sales of indulgences was morally wrong. There cannot be any intellectual dispute about this.

Very well, at least one notes that you've been paying some attention to History of Religions.
Unfortunately, your approach lacks the social, economical and civilizational perspective of the XV and XVI centuries, therefore resulting into some disconnected fragments that leads you to wrong and even dangerous conclusions.
Protestantism is not the result of Church's mistakes, abuses or whatsoever, it's not a "reformation" and even much much less, it's not any form of moral redemption.

Those are not my conclusions. When I say "reformation", I don't mean that religion got improved somehow. True religion cannot be improved. True religion is always perfect. I only repeat the label that historians have given to the events.

Reformation did not provide any moral redemption. It provided a channel for the moral rage of Luther and of German people. The moral rage was real and its reasons were real. Also the incompetence of the papal nuncio in handling the crisis was real. A lesser religion was born out of the crisis and the bigger one didn't learn the lesson properly, so there was ultimately no real winner, just some reshuffling on the arena of politics of religion.