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Topic: Anthropogenic Global Warming (Read 198579 times)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #800
I suppose you're right. At various points in this thread, I was trying to get him to understand that current third industrial revolution technology changes transcends dyed in the wool party politics and comes down to long term economic and business sense and the era in which this was just tree hugging hippy liberal stuff is over. In this I must take ownership of my failure.

One more try, since I'm so stubborn. Okay, Oakdale, there was a long period in which work was mostly done by draft animals. Attach a horse or ox or whatever large animal of your choosing to a wheel as an engine of sorts. Then came water wheels, followed by fossil fuels and nuclear. Although early examples of each of these improvements meant a large investment and change in thinking, they were ultimately more efficient and profits increased :yes: Now renewable sources such as solar are coming into their own with solar plants that keep generating after dark and cost less per kilowatt hour to generate electricity than natural gas (yes, some new models do...) But fossil fuel interests are doing their damnedist to keep from being replaced, hence the propaganda articles and massive political contributions. But there's no more reason to want to hold on to fossils fuels than it would have been continue tying animals to wheels back in the day. In what way does that make sense? Because some political blog told you that a lower percentage of climatologists than 97 agree that climate change is man-made? So what if that number is actually in 80 percent range or whatever or is indeed 97?

Progress will continue with or without the naysayers and those that want to hold onto the past and once again a higher level of human development and GDP will come with it as it has for centuries and this time around we'll have cleaner air and less overall environmental damage to boot. There's little to rationally oppose unless you own stock in Exxon-Mobile, BP and friends.

I know, "So-and-so's paper has holes in it." Again, so what for us? None of us has identified himself as a climatologist, so we don't actually know this and wind up parroting what some blogger said (who most likely isn't one either and is thus unable to reproduce the experiments for himself or go collect ice cores and rock samples and analyze tree rings for signs of warm periods and cool periods, etc) Wow, that's an unpleasant feeling isn't it, being full of shit and repeating what somebody equally or more so is? Harsh? Certainly. True? With as much certainty.

What I do know is business and what the fate of those who cling to old ways of doing is. Chapter 7, all non-exempt assets liquidated.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #801
Failed to see a relevant conclusion he's drawn yet.
That's because -contra most of the world's politicians- the science remains equivocal…
In essence, what Mann et all did was filter out natural climate variability to determine the human impact.
You mean, if it isn't X, it must be Y; because we don't know what it actually is, but we want it to be Y…? :)
Mann basically said:
Quote
By making up the "data" we can show that, using ridiculously inappropriate statistical techniques, our side Wins! Yea!
Would someone care to explain what such a methodological advance would mean, elsewhere in science? (Say, in physics…!)

Understand: He acknowledges that we don't "know" what the "natural variability" of our climate system is. We don't know what anthropogenic forcings contribute… But -by repeatedly running simulations, using models that have even failed be to verified!- we have "data" that can then be plugged into a simple (…I'd say, simplistic and probably wrong — as in "No Solution!") equation:

Anthropogenic forcing = Climate minus Natural Variability minus some mythical, mystical "steady state"… (That's what we caused! Shame on us!)
To be fair to Mann, et al., they ran Monte Carlo simulations to determine what the real climate did (…because, we all know, measurements of reality are too complicated to use in science) and correlated the mythical, mystical "steady state" with muscularly massaged actual data (…supposedly, actual climate). (They actually did worse than that… But let it pass: They did -at least- that.) A bold move! (You can't be a good grafter if you're unwilling to climb out on a limb… The trick is to get your mark to climb out, after or before you; techniques vary!) That gave them their "Natural Variability" (…the so-called noise) and their "steady state" is, in their terms, their statistical construct representing the mean from which temperatures deviate…
Let that sink in! On what basis, what theory, what prognostications, what delusion – do we have an ideal temperature, as determined by the Earth's "natural" climate?
More succinctly: There's a natural climate? And it favors us? Cool! (No: I mean Hot rather than cool… :) I don't like the cold; nor should anyone else: The energy required to offset an ice age -if Man is to survive- is far greater than that any global warming scenario mentions.)
Next, the sum of these two… (We're clear where these numbers come from, right? :) Or not!?) gives us the anthropogenic effect! QED.
That's how Mann works.
(Curve-fitting is the preferred methodology of "social" scientists… :( )

[I throw this in again, because "true believers" tend to forget: The statistical technique Mann used in the work that made him famous and celebrated was the created by Jensen for an entirely different purpose — and one you'd likely, dear reader, deplore!]

But there are no such things as determinable, demonstrable "Natural Variability" and a "steady state" that we know of… (We don't have causal models that would operationally define their meanings. Until we do, we're trying to catch the wind.) Politics and policy require science to stop…
Does no one else find that odd?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #802
Progress will continue with or without the naysayers and those that want to hold onto the past and once again a higher level of human development and GDP will come with it as it has for centuries and this time around we'll have cleaner air and less overall environmental damage to boot. There's little to rationally oppose unless you own stock in Exxon-Mobile, BP and friends.
I kind-a wonder, Sang: What do you think I'm opposing?
Specially since my "opposition" is futile? :)

I think what you actually mean is: "Government must control the means of production, and determine what should be produced…"
(That worked out well, for Lysenko-dominated Soviet agriculture, eh? :( )
———————————————————
so what for us? None of us has identified himself as a climatologist, so we don't actually know this and wind up parroting what some blogger said (who most likely isn't one either and is thus unable to reproduce the experiments for himself or go collect ice cores and rock samples and analyze tree rings for signs of warm periods and cool periods, etc) Wow
You are actually in favor of perpetuating ignorance, because that's where you're comfortable…? :)

I guess I know you too well. But you know me not at all…

BTW: If you want to know if 2014 (or 2015) is the hottest year ever (recorded): Do your silly averaging of world temps and use the basic math skills you (should have been) were taught as a toddler…
Another BTW: What is the justification of focusing on "anomalies"…? (Aren't these just statistical constructs, based upon models? Models that aren't verified; models that aren't falsifiable. Models that bring in Big Bucks!)I'll mention it again, because I think it's really important: On what basis have we determined that the Earth's climate has a preferred temperature?
Seriously: No science supports such a contention.

Of course, we humans would like a certain range of temps… (I'm with you there, Sang! But, if you want to snow-ski in L.A. and Baja California, you've lost me.) But the Earth's climate "system" may have other "ideas"…

If we don't get the science right, everything else is a crap-shoot!
(Appropriate, for a Las Vegan, perhaps; but not for rational people! :) )

And someone needs to explain how the Earth's climate system "has" ideas.

Well, if you are capable of such, I've given you much to think about.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #803
I think what you actually mean is: "Government must control the means of production, and[/i] determine what should be produced…"
(That worked out well, for Lysenko-dominated Soviet agriculture, eh?  :(  )

Why is that you say gibberish like this? It's embarrassing.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #804
I'm sorry, that you're so easily embarrassed by you deficiencies in basic logic… I've tried to help you, there; but you're incorrigible! :)

A poem, friend?

Quote
You know what you know, because somebody
told you so. And you can't go against that!
Indeed, you're a "social" creature — a hat
which needs to fit a head… Leave your gaudy

pretensions behind: You don't know as
much as you think you do! Socrates said
that this was our most egregious sin, fed
by our basest impulses… Letting out gas,

excreting fecal and urine matter…
(Although I don't think he ever mentioned
them, particularly! :) ) Condescensioned
discourse was always a bit of blather…

But no one misunderstands what is meant.
And no one lacks the urge and need to vent!

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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #805
You mean, if it isn't X, it must be Y; because we don't know what it actually is, but we want it to be Y…?

That's the point I was making in another thread when you accused me of saying nothing...

In this case you're just saying what makes you seem not wrong and so inferring you're somehow right about something (what that is you never quite said). You pointed out the fallacies in an opposing viewpoint (X) that were spoon fed to you by another viewpoint (Y). I can't help feel like I'm watching Fox News. Pointing out what's going on doesn't mean you aren't doing it too.

I think what you actually mean is: "Government must control the means of production, and determine what should be produced…"
(That worked out well, for Lysenko-dominated Soviet agriculture, eh?  :(  )

And here it is. This really is embarrassing. In order to not be wrong you'll say almost anything. (Where's the remote? Fox is at it again!)

All you've done -in way too many words mind you- is group everything together into two opinions. Attributing garbage with the opposition only means you're attributing everything actually said in that view as garbage as well. Such broad generalizations isn't even an argument.  

I've given you much to think about.

:lol:

If the debate is X and Y let's call the reality of it Z. There seems to be consensus that Z isn't known so the only questions worth asking are about how to find Z. What needs to change in the EPA or do we need something more like DECC? How we get those answers will quickly lead to your political mind churning up nonsense. Like Rj's train simulator your mind is on rails. There's nothing I can do for that.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #806
You are actually in favor of perpetuating ignorance, because that's where you're comfortable…?

And you're in favor of insulting people when you've been hopelessly outclassed.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #807
Remind you of any opinion news agency?

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #808
Well, it's been a while since I was inflicted with Fox News, but I do remember a segment of Bill O'Reilly's show in which he would proceed to call people this disagreed with him "pinheads."
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #809
It's quite amusing, that some few of you here accuse me of getting my opinions from Fox News… (I think Howie started this rumor; or Sang. But that's the way these two think, and nothing I can say will disabuse them!) I seldom watch television; and I am not much influenced by "talking heads".
But I understand why you do so: That's what you know — from your own personal experience; that's how you get your opinions! :(

Is the goal of science to understand the natural world? Or computer simulations, and garner big-dollar grants? :)

We have no verified computer models of the earth's climate. We have no understanding of the earth's climate sufficient to predict where it's going…

What we have is politics as usual: People with agendas, who will do anything to get their goals achieved…
(Of course, they -most of them- don't even know that they even have goals. Sheeple!)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #810

Is the goal of science to understand the natural world? Or computer simulations, and garner big-dollar grants? :)

And a further pertinent question: What's your justification when you impute such goals on specific scientists or scientific results/publications?


We have no verified computer models of the earth's climate. We have no understanding of the earth's climate sufficient to predict where it's going…

And? Are you saying that therefore earth's climate does not exist? You seem to be solidly entrenched in the view that some assumptions/conclusions about the earth's climate are right and others are wrong, but if the basis of your view is that there are no verified models and that we have no sufficient understanding, then your entrenchment is rather curious.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #811
Quote from: ersi link=topic=109.msg50875#date=1453974358
You seem to be solidly entrenched in the view that some assumptions/conclusions about the earth's climate are right and others are wrong, but if the basis of your view is that there are no verified models and that we have no sufficient understanding, then your entrenchment is rather curious.
Yes: Those that are not supported by science -but are touted by political actors/activists- I'll reject, until and unless they're supported by legitimate science. (Pseudo-science, like Michael Mann's, won't change my mind. And that wonderful term "semi-empirical" does, indeed, capture what Mann does… He has a goal, and he'll use any means to achieve it…

About your curiosity: You think I'm "entrenched" in an opinion? :) No, sir! I'm just opposed to accepting inadequate science, for political reasons.

Are our CO2 emissions into the earth's atmosphere dangerous? Well, we should try to determine that!
(Is it having an effect upon the earth's climate? Of course. So is foresting; and fishing. And building cities, and roads…)
But we should also consider whether CO2 emissions into the earth's atmosphere are beneficial… No? :)

If we knew more about the earth's climate "system" then we'd know how to answer such questions. But we don't.
Not yet.
I think we should keep learning… (Presuming an answer, a "consensus" regarding "climate change" strikes me as premature.)

Still, that doesn't stop politically "active" groups from choosing sides… (I don't care, which sides — in such cases.)

Myself, I'm a conservative: I require convincing evidence before I change my mind. A convincing argument that what was known before was wrong, and should be replaced by what is now posited… I haven't seen it, yet.
I don't reject the possibility. I merely note that the arguments made -so far- are inadequate.
In what way is this an irrational opinion?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #812
It's not just about carbon dioxide emissions but also the cascade effect from the release of greenhouse gases emitted from a defrosting tundra and that deforestation has removed any hope of balancing the ever increasing emissions.

We have a record of climate change and what environmental factors can be attributed to it from ice core samples. This isn't speculative science. What we know is climate can and has changed rapidly then persisted for thousands of years naturally due to variables we're emitting at unprecedented rates. So a reduction in emissions only makes sense regardless of how exact we can forecast it.

"I'm a conservative" is political. That you believe it is related to rationality somehow only shows how misguided your observations can be. The only reason not to support a progression towards emission reduction is politically driven ideology. It makes sense in more ways than just save the planet. If you held your political views to the same standards you hold "convincing science" you wouldn't be so content with labels you've given yourself.     

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #813
If you held your political views to the same standards you hold "convincing science" you wouldn't be so content with labels you've given yourself.

Not to mention it exists in abundance and easy to find once one gets off ideologically driven blogs, designed to keep "conservatives" on the so-called skeptical side in order for the GOP to continue getting oil money. It's a bizarre state of mind in which college professors with small research grants (in which the have to account for every penny they spend....) are the corrupt ones with an agenda, whereas the those that benefit from denial (the fossil fuel industry, GOP politicians, bloggers were paid by the oil companies, etc ) are somehow the ones telling the truth. Maybe the blogs deluded him to thinking the professors are able to pocket the grant money and get rich off it?

Than there's his notion of the what the science is. Because spends his reading time in political blogs instead reading about the actual research, he thinks it's all speculative computer models. :lol: We know from studying natural history what happens when CO2 builds up in the atmosphere this rapidly every time. Yes, it's happened before natural causes. However there are no natural causes to be had. The only natural causes that held any water so far is cosmic rays, but even the authors of the theory admit that's not sufficient to explain the current climate change. So, Oakdale, so tell us what is causing climate change if it isn't a well know greenhouse gas spewed out by humans at a massive rate? Since you are a beckon of light against the moonless, starless winter night of ignorance brought about by science, we need you to share your vast expertise on the subject. Being genius in the matter, you hold more knowledge than the collective climatology profession (which is corrupt and chooses profit over truth, unlike corporations whose very existence depends on peddling polluting products.....:rolleyes: )
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #814
Sang, I understand that you've bought into Oreskes' conspiracy theory… But, since that's little more than political rhetoric, I'll let it pass. (Your chosen field of expertise also tried to assume the mantle of "Science" by abusing statistics… :) )

Your "magic bullet" view of climate is only supported by the IPCC's mission-statement. Where you get the idea, that I read right-wing blogs for scientific elucidation, I've never understood… Perhaps you just can't understand how anyone can read the published literature — without the politically Red-colored glasses?

Did you read Mann's latest?
The only reason not to support a progression towards emission reduction is politically driven ideology.
The only reason to support emissions reduction is power politics… "Given that climate change is a danger, the world needs global governance." Hm. That has -as a premise something that bothers me: From where do we get the expertise to implement such? (Might it be from ideology…? :) )

Had you read the literature more (…or, perhaps, more closely…) you'd know that atmospheric CO2 concentrations -as determined by ice core samples- often lagged by as much as 400 years. In other words, the "cause" didn't occur until 400 years after the effect…
To someone like me (obviously intellectually inadequate and biased, to boot!) this suggests that the relationship between atmospheric CO2 and climate change is — not well-understood.
But — what do I know? :)

BTW, Sang: Saying that "The only natural causes that held any water so far is cosmic rays" is indicative of your ignorance of the literature. But, since you seem to be okay with that, I guess you should stay married to your political view of climatology… :(
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #815
Your "magic bullet" view of climate is only supported by the IPCC's mission-statement. Where you get the idea, that I read right-wing blogs for scientific elucidation, I've never understood
Because this is the type of gibberish that comes from a blog written by a non-scientist with an agenda. Don't get me wrong, liberal blogs misrepresent the science as well.
The only reason to support emissions reduction is power politics…

You say this despite that the fact that the lower emissions technology offers the next industrial revolution. Some new power plants are already more efficient at power generation than natural gas plants and don't pollute the air. You're somehow stuck in the politics of this, another clue your brain is overexposed to political blogs on the subject instead of what's actually going on.
Sang: Saying that "The only natural causes that held any water so far is cosmic rays" is indicative of your ignorance of the literature.

Negative. As stated before, the other theories have failed. Other ideas such as perhaps the sun is going through a period of increased activity fail on the basis that global warming continues after well after solar cycle was completed and the heat from the solar cycle had already dissipated. Don't misunderstand, on the surface that seemed like a good hypothesis, but it didn't pan out.  Then there was the meme that it stopped in 1998. All you have to do is check the global temperatures after that date....
you'd know that atmospheric CO2 concentrations -as determined by ice core samples- often lagged by as much as 400 years. In other words, the "cause" didn't occur until 400 years after the effect…

It takes a while for the CO2 to be trapped in rocks and ice cores, but was in the atmosphere during the warming period, obviously.  Again, this is evidence that you get your misinformation from blogs written by scientifically illiterate or disingenuous right-wingers.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #816
Well poop. Can't even say I didn't know better than to try.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #817
Because this is the type of gibberish that comes from a blog written by a non-scientist with an agenda.
Cite, please! (The HuffPo doesn't qualify… :) )

You say this despite that the fact that the lower emissions technology offers the next industrial revolution.
I do! When have I ever called for suppression of new technologies? (I have, however, argued against suppression of established and proven technologies — specially, to support federal subsidies for -so far- unproven technologies…
You're welcome to your revolution, Sang! (Unless what you'd kill to get it is too much…)
Some new power plants are already more efficient at power generation than natural gas plants and don't pollute the air
Again: Cite, please! :)

It takes a while for the CO2 to be trapped in rocks and ice cores, but was in the atmosphere during the warming period, obviously
That's the sin qua non of the kind of science you believe in: Your "obviously" is your "tell".
Again, this is evidence that you get your misinformation from blogs written by scientifically illiterate or disingenuous right-wingers.
And yet I cite papers in the peer-reviewed literature, and attempt to rate them. You rant and rave and name-call, and then fall back upon two things:
The HuffPo-style media, and your obviously inadequate reasoning abilities… :)

Sorry, Sang, but you don't understand even why this matters… Put it all on red, and bet the farm!
———————————————————————————————————
Truth be told, I don't like arguing with you at such a level of sophistication. Because you are incapable of understanding either the issues or the arguments… You were "educated" to be ignorant!
But that you've taken it so to-heart is a sad commentary on our undergraduate institutions.

BTW: If you think that Mann's papers are "good"… Consider the ones that supported the infamous Hockey Stick Graph in AR3: Either poor little Ph. D. candidate Mikey didn't understand the statistical procedure of principle component analysis…
Or Jensen, who created this statistical procedure, was right about I.Q.!
What a dilemma! (For "progressives".)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #818
(I have, however, argued against suppression of established and proven technologies — specially, to support federal subsidies for -so far- unproven technologies…

And yet not for the billions the oil industry gets :yes:
That's the sin qua non of the kind of science you believe in: Your "obviously" is your "tell".

You really think a delay is CO2 appearing in rocks credibility of climate science. Something like that is expected. Do tell me you're kidding.
Truth be told, I don't like arguing with you at such a level of sophisticati

It's not even possible to argue with you with any degree of sophistication. You're not capable of understand the science, not out of stupidity mind you; but by choice.  So you try to make this about particular personalities, such as Mann. I don't get a rat's ass about Mann or any particular person (nor did I say his paper was good. In fact I noted you completely missed what's really wrong with it and you continue to do so...) You're so silly that you like to say climate "system." Here's were upset mjmpsrt40, but understanding how it is a system is fucking elementary school, or a very uneducated adult. But again, it's not because you're that stupid. It offends you politically because if the climate is indeed a system that interacts with what happens on land, sea, other part of the atmosphere; it implies that human emissions can and is causing climate change. Therefore quotes to imply that it really isn't a system. Your interest is in the science at all. It's about conservative politics.

You also engage in conspiracy theories and agendas. What agenda? To have cleaner environment? How horrible. :rolleyes:  Obviously the oil cartel clear doesn't have an agenda, huh? If you goal was really to get at the truth, why not take a look at their bullshit and what they stand to gain by spreading misinformation. Oh I remember the climate agenda, to get political power. If you were truly only interested in the truth, why not check the oil companies political power...
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #819
Again: Cite, please!  :)

Just real quick
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060023749

Quote
That photovoltaic power station follows the example of other projects across the sunny West. Last month, NV Energy Inc., the principal utility for the state of Nevada, owned by billionaire investor Warren Buffett, signed a deal with solar developer SunPower Corp. for a 100 MW plant at a price of 4.6 cents per kilowatt-hour. Also last month, NV Energy fixed a price with First Solar Inc. for 3.87 cents per kWh from a 100 MW plant that could be the cheapest electricity in the United States according to PV Magazine.

Also, in May, Austin Energy in Texas signed a 20-year, 150-MW deal with Recurrent Energy for 5 cents per kWh, Utility Dive reported.

As recently as 2014, solar power plants were costing nearly 14 cents per kWh, according to PV Magazine. By comparison, the benchmark 2014 price of electricity from an advanced combined-cycle natural gas plant was 6.4 cents per kWh, according to data from the Energy Information Administration.

The cheapest energy in the US..... See, while you GOPers are wasting time arguing with against climate change (with no scientific rational for  doing so, and ultimately only defending their oil industry benefactors)  , "liberals" are making a fortune by advancing technology :)

Wind is getting to this point as well.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #820
You're not capable of understand the science […]
I have the math and the logic background, and the perseverance to read (and digest) the original papers… You counter that with press releases and op-eds; and wonder why your views don't convince me.
(I know you likely think Philosophy of Science is a bogus discipline… Yet you readily accept History of Science and Sociology of Science as legitimate! :) )
I don't get (sic) a rat's ass about Mann or any particular person (nor did I say his paper was good. In fact I noted you completely missed what's really wrong with it and you continue to do so...)
That's "interesting": What did you say was really wrong with Mann's paper? (I assume you mean Mann, et al. (2015)…? If not, cite the relevant paper.) Also, I'd like to see what papers (from which authors) you think are good, and -of course- advance the science of climatology…
[…] understanding how it is a system is fucking elementary school, or a very uneducated adult. But again, it's not because you're that stupid. It offends you politically because if the climate is indeed a system that interacts with what happens on land, sea, other part of the atmosphere; it implies that human emissions can and is causing climate change […]
Understanding how the "earth's climate" is a system is a deucedly difficult problem: Obviously, the major oceans have "systems" that are somewhat independent of each other. (Consider the AMO and the PDO.) Yet the posit of the effects of atmospheric CO2 as the main forcing -together with feedbacks, of course!- of the entire system remains the primary focus of academic climatology… Yet this doesn't strike you as odd?
Indeed, you've repeatedly and routinely dismissed work that doesn't maintain this focus!

BTW: Is the universe a system? What did your fucking elementary school teach you? :) You use too many words that you don't understand. And, still, write/post as if you don't hear/read what you say…
Your interest is in the science at all. It's about conservative politics.
Nope! You got it right the first time; inarticulately, but -even so- right. My interest is -mostly- in the science. Conservative politics is another interest of mine… :) They don't much over-lap, you know. (Oops! I take that back: You don't and probably can't: For you, there's no distinction to be made between politics and other "fields"!) What you know is — hmm… For people who disagree with you to "go away"? :)

It's nice to know that some "alternative" energy sources are panning out! But we still need, world-wide, nuclear power — if pollution is the problem; specially, if atmospheric carbon is the most serious threat to "the climate system"! :) (I'm hoping that fusion reactors become feasible, soon. But I don't expect it: Fusion reactors have been "30 years coming" for more than 60 years now…)
I appreciate the fact that -if we had a grid structure more advanced and more robust than we do- these minor suppliers could do much to provide our overall usage needs. (I suspect you think the reason we don't is "nefarious influences"… I'd counter: "If you build it, they will come!") Myself, I'm a fan of solar… But I think the most reasonable long-term solution, there, is orbital-to-earth via microwave technology. Howie wouldn't like it! (He's always thought the Space Program was a boondoggle! …Like Scotland would ever have one…? :)) But is that a reason to forgo a promising technology? :)

Also, by the way: What do you think those "rich liberals" will do with their money? (Well, what has Al Gore done? :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #821
counter that with press releases and op-eds; and wonder why your views don't convince me.

No, I don't. At this point your making shit up. Of course, much of sociology is mathematics. Oh wait, you thought it was some Marxist professors or other bullshit, huh? In the curriculum, there's the sociological theories, social anthropology (well actually that was an elective), economics, and a whole lot of math.
What did you say was really wrong with Mann's paper

I didn't. I was trying to see if you could figure it out. But you still can't because your relying on strawmen.
Yet this doesn't strike you as odd?

That's what appears to be principle cause of climate change. But do you seriously the other variables haven't been factored in? Has something changed significantly enough since the the climate started changing besides CO2? Once again, for while skeptics could claim increased solar activity. But the average global temperature continued to rise after the head from that evident has already dissipated (one the theories that didn't stand up) Then there was the myth the climate change stopped in 1998, but that was supported largely by conservatives manipulating the data to suit their agenda (protecting the fossil fuel industry, which a benefactor to the GOP.) Cosmic rays can do, but as I already noted even the authors of that theory say that isn't enough. Oh yeah, and there haven't been significant changes to the Earth's geography :p So what is causing it besides CO2?

Yes, any given paper on either side of the debate can have major and minor flaws. But I only see you pouncing an papers offering evidence of anthropocentric climate change but holes in skeptical papers wide enough to lay an oil pipeline through get ignored. This leads me to believe you interest in political and not scientific.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal


Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #823
Of course, much of sociology is mathematics.
In much the same way as numerology… :)
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #824
Just wait. Trump will fix it!
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/265895292191248385?lang=en

I had to retweet this guy:

Quote
Phil Plait ‏@BadAstronomer  24 Jun 2013
@AnneWheaton If @realDonaldTrump were any more of a tool he'd have "Craftsman" stamped on him.
:lol:

The question becomes why denying this science is rank and file conservative position in the first place. Aren't conservatives supposed look at the evidence before making an informed decision. Instead, the follow strawmen in climate change, while ignoring all the rest of the science and repeat crap that a simple Google search can show is not correct. Guess what, there are putzes on either side of the argument. However, there vast preponderance of empirical data shows only one culprit, which is human emission. Let's say George gets murdered. Various suspects were found not to be present at the crime scene. But Bill was and his gun was found to be the type used in the killing and his fingerprints and DNA are all over George. Who did it? :p  It wouldn't really be conservative find some excuse that maybe he didn't murder the guy, even if a somewhat less than 97 percent of District Attorneys would prosecute the case like the news claimed.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal