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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 232188 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #550 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Ok, I understand that in Estonia peacekeepers are named occupants. I have question about peacekeepers from Moldova and Transnistria: are they also occupants?
Why is it so hard to stay on topic for you? You saw the article I quoted? The president of the self-proclaimed republic (incidentally we are seeing a lot of self-proclaimed republics this week) issued a plea to be annexed by Russia, so says TASS. What is unclear there?

As to peacekeepers, the concept is understood in Estonia (and in the rest of the world minus Russia) as small military units who wear light blue helmets. The troops are from countries unrelated to the situation where they are assigned. Their assignments are brief and temporary as per UN directives. They are positioned in strategically inconvenient places, easy to see and shoot at - deliberately. When shot at, they only complain and leave, declaring the situation unbearable.

Transnistria does not even remotely resemble this. South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria have been in a locked-down political situation for decades. Normal peacekeepers quickly get in and out of the situation and the troops are from countries unrelated to the location of the assignment. In contrast, South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria are best described as Russian military bases specifically designed to block any political solutions in those places indefinitely.

Your definition of peacekeepers goes squarely against the definition of peacekeepers in the rest of the world. From now on, whenever you say peacekeepers, I know you mean Russian occupying forces. I don't really care how you name them. I care what they do, and there's no denying about what they are doing. For example they overran and annexed Crimea.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #552 –
My question was about peacekeepers from Moldova and Transnistria. They obviously don't fit your definition. So, they are occupants too. Thank you for your answer.

I hope that you use the same term for NATO forces in Kosovo. Let's check it:

small military units who wear light blue helmets - currently KFOR has 4000 people - this is 2 times more than Russia has in Transnistria
The troops are from countries unrelated to the situation where they are assigned - NATO bombed Yugoslavia, so, obviously, they are not neutral
Their assignments are brief and temporary as per UN directives - not brief, no UN directive
They are positioned in strategically inconvenient places, easy to see and shoot at - not sure
When shot at, they only complain and leave, declaring the situation unbearable - I really doubt that NATO will leave Kosovo if Serbia will attack them

Occupants, not peacekeepers. Right? BTW, I don't know whether KFOR includes Estonian troops. Can you enlighten me here: does Estonia participate in occupation of Kosovo?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #553 –
Quote from: ersi on
Your definition of peacekeepers goes squarely against the definition of peacekeepers in the rest of the world.


I'm sorry to say this, but Estonia is not the rest of the world. Wikipedia obviously describes Russian troops in Transnistria as peacekeepers. Wikipedia also describes Russian troops which were located in South Ossetia at time of Georgian attack as peacekeepers too. BTW, KFOR is also described by Wikipedia as peacekeepers. And I wonder whether you can apply your own definition to NATO troops or this definition works only when you talk about Russian troops.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #554 –
Quote from: ersi on

Quote from: Macallan on

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.

From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.
When did takeovers and landgrabs depend on popular support? They depend on who gets the upper hand, while the upper hand may be played as if popular support.

They're much less messy if a sufficiently large part of the population wants to join their new overlords.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #555 –
Quote from: krake on

Quote from: Macallan on

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Well, not only Donetsk. Ukrainian media reports that Kharkov Republic is declared in Kharkov.

From what I've read so far, popular support for secession isn't nearly as strong as on Crimea - let's see how it plays out.

I've read the same in German media.
It makes me wonder why Kiev opposed referendums in those regions. It seems that Kiev isn't at all confident about the outcome of such referendums. Furthermore it seems that Kiev doesn't even trust the law enforcement forces of those regions.

One article I've read claimed that local law enforcement is 'demoralized and in disarray'.
They're probably afraid that such a referendum would be rigged if deemed necessary by the Russians.

Quote from: krake on

Instead of de-escalation and honest efforts to solve peacefully the tensios, all that Kiev has to offer are questionable special forces.

Same kind of authoritarians on both sides of the border.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #556 –
Quote from: Macallan on
They're probably afraid that such a referendum would be rigged if deemed necessary by the Russians.


??? I understand that Putin is a very powerful person, but I have no idea how he can rig referendum in Ukraine where he does not control local authorities, media, police, army, etc.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #557 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Quote from: Macallan on
They're probably afraid that such a referendum would be rigged if deemed necessary by the Russians.


??? I understand that Putin is a very powerful person, but I have no idea how he can rig referendum in Ukraine where he does not control local authorities, media, police, army, etc.

I didn't say this (hypothetical) fear is justified - maybe it is, maybe not, the new government didn't come across as particularly rational so far. Then again, with Kiev losing control of those areas to pro-russian rebels, your guess is as good as mine.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #558 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on
And I wonder whether you can apply your own definition to NATO troops or this definition works only when you talk about Russian troops.

NATO troops in Kosovo? They are occupiers too of course, and the attacks on Serbia were a wanton exercise of military might. The same with NATO in Libya, the "coalition of the willing" in Iraq, and the same with the USSR in Afghanistan in 1979 and in the Baltic countries and Poland in 1939-1940. Peacekeeping is just an occasional mask in some of those cases, the more ordinary masks are deterring threats and restoring order.

At least with American forces in most places you can say they are kind of unrelated, because they come from the other side of the world. In contrast, Russia's "peacekeepers" immediately at their own border leave no illusion of impartiality or disinterestedness even when one might otherwise be easily misled to believe stuff.

You see, when you stupidly bring up the argument that Americans do it too, then yes, Americans do it too, but this doesn't make Russians any better. You really want to be as big international bully as America is? What Russia is doing right now is not enough?

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

??? I understand that Putin is a very powerful person, but I have no idea how he can rig referendum in Ukraine where he does not control local authorities, media, police, army, etc.
You have no idea only when you are totally blind to both the current news and historical scenarios that are being replayed right in front of you.

Quote from: Macallan on

Quote from: ersi on
When did takeovers and landgrabs depend on popular support? They depend on who gets the upper hand, while the upper hand may be played as if popular support.

They're much less messy if a sufficiently large part of the population wants to join their new overlords.
Popular support has been historically unnecessary many times. It often suffices to replace the political elite with puppets. Making the regime effectively a one-party system helps a lot.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #559 –
Quote from: ersi on
At least with American forces in most places you can say they are kind of unrelated, because they come from the other side of the world.

This is the best criteria of peacekeeping mission that I ever heard. So, when USSR deployed missiles on Cuba - they were peacekeeping missilies because they were too far from Moscow. Let's continue your idea. After all, Soviet government expected that USA will invade Cuba. So, it's quite possible that those missiles did keep peace on the island. Voila, Cuban crisis was Soviet peacekeeping operation. ersi, you're a genius.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #560 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

Quote from: ersi on
At least with American forces in most places you can say they are kind of unrelated, because they come from the other side of the world.

This is the best criteria of peacekeeping mission that I ever heard. So, when USSR deployed missiles on Cuba - they were peacekeeping missilies because they were too far from Moscow. Let's continue your idea. After all, Soviet government expected that USA will invade Cuba. So, it's quite possible that those missiles did keep peace on the island. Voila, Cuban crisis was Soviet peacekeeping operation. ersi, you're a genius.
Compared to you, I am genius, yes, because you forgot all the other criteria that go into peacekeeping. And you keep forgetting stuff as much and as often as it suits you. So, when we are looking for geniuses, we won't be looking at you.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #561 –
Quote from: ersi on
Compared to you, I am genius, yes, because you forgot all the other criteria that go into peacekeeping. And you keep forgetting stuff as much and as often as it suits you. So, when we are looking for geniuses, we won't be looking at you.

I never said that I'm a genius. I'm damn stupid idiot - everybody (including myself) knows this.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #562 –
Point taken.
 

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #564 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on
Can you enlighten me here: does Estonia participate in occupation of Kosovo?


Unfortunately, genius did not answer all of my questions. So, I've found needed info myself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Kosovo_Contingent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Iraqi_Contingent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonian_Afghanistan_Contingent

Quote from: ersi on
Americans do it too, but this doesn't make Russians any better


It's funny but even gracious Estonians are not better: tiny Estonia participates in occupation of 3 countries. This looks extremely aggressive for country which is smaller by population than Yekaterinburg alone.

And in general rule of force was used by humankind during thousands years. As events show, this will not change in 21st century.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #565 –
That stinky part amazes me much: when someone deems someone else's sins make himself look better.
You can't clean a toilet by making another toilet utterly unbearable. As we speak about Ukraine, particularly -- right? --- nothing which does not directly influence the situation there can change that situation. Isn't it obvious enough? Should we apply the General Relativity or just mere logic will suffice?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #566 –
Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

It's funny but even gracious Estonians are not better: tiny Estonia participates in occupation of 3 countries. This looks extremely aggressive for country which is smaller by population than Yekaterinburg alone.

Yes, Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, and some Estonian contingent was recently sent to RCA too in a so-called peace-keeping mission, which in reality is to help France keep exploiting the country. This makes four missions.

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on

And in general rule of force was used by humankind during thousands years. As events show, this will not change in 21st century.
There's a serious difference between the kind of occupation that Estonia does and what Russia does.

- The Estonian missions are exclusively international missions. No self-initiated attacks ever, at all.
- Estonia has no military, strategic or economic gain in the missions. We didn't get oil from Iraq or sand from Afghanistan. The only gain is an elusive idea of partnership with the other involved countries, even though there are no guarantees. (Note that this doesn't make the missions selfless. It makes them pointless.)
- Estonia's history of such occupations began this century. Russia's has lasted at least half a millennium.
- The people of Estonia (people as distinguished from govt) clearly understand that these are missions of occupation rather than liberation. The popular opinion is diametrically opposed to the govt decisions. You, on the other hand, justify the crimes of your govt.

Also, there's the difference that you are a self-admitted idiot, whereas I am genius. I will keep patiently educating you when I have time. Thanks for cooperation.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #567 –
Quote from: ersi on
Also, there's the difference that you are a self-admitted idiot, whereas I am genius. I will keep patiently educating you when I have time. Thanks for cooperation.

But would a true idiot know that he is an idiot?  :sherlock:

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #568 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
But would a true idiot know that he is an idiot?  :sherlock:
Ah, a trick question :) Well, straightforwardly, if he is not a true idiot, even though he says he is, then he is a liar. Which does not help his case at all.

However, if he is a true idiot, and irreparable, I am sadly wasting my time and effort.

But I prefer to interpret it this way: This was one claim by him that I could agree on. Hence we have found some common ground. It's a narrow and uncertain ground, but let's be happy with this start and try to progress from here, shall we...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #569 –
Svoboda's rightwing party arguing in the Ukrainian parliament:
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrFJDyuFX-E[/video]   

No wonder that many Ukrainians aren't eager to see their destiny in such hands (fists).

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #570 –
The man was apparently from the southeast of Ukraine and arguing that the government wasn't being fully national and only creating dissension in the country.That buffoon, Kerry got into the general act by conjuring up a fairy tale that the people in the east were being organised by Russia. He not only looks a an idiot but talks like one. Ukraine voted in a government democratically whatever the former President was like and the people in the east are understandably annoyed at being mistreated. Even when some demonstrations were peaceful the "authorities" got pushy. So it is okay to illegally topple a government but not tolerate anyone who disagrees with you? It is all duff propaganda because the majorityu language in the east is Russian so Russia must be involved. May I remind the fairtale lovers that US politicians, EEC ones went directly and publicly into Ukraine to support the people in the square who were voilent, deadly and run by neo-Nazis.  Kerry stoically ignores the Russian Foreign Minister's repeats that they are not interested in invading Ukraine. The "President" of Ukraine has added his act against Russia. It tells you that from the start the west of Ukraine didn't care a damn about the east or south and were only concerned about themselves.

The main thrust in the east of the country is for the federal system I referred to but if the storm trooper mentality in Kiev aided and abetted by the West are going to keep on a support for one side then the Ukraine will fall apart. One thankful side item is that more and more ordinary Americans are a bit less inclined than their politicals to get too involved. So well done them.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #571 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Quote from: ersi on
Also, there's the difference that you are a self-admitted idiot, whereas I am genius. I will keep patiently educating you when I have time. Thanks for cooperation.

But would a true idiot know that he is an idiot?  :sherlock:

Possibly, but would he know that he's a true idiot? :left:
Dunning & Kruger say ... probably not :right:

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #572 –
Here's something so bizarre I don't know what to think of it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/
Quote
On March 28-31, 2014, we asked a national sample of 2,066 Americans (fielded via Survey Sampling International Inc. (SSI), what action they wanted the U.S. to take in Ukraine, but with a twist: In addition to measuring standard demographic characteristics and general foreign policy attitudes, we also asked our survey respondents to locate Ukraine on a map as part of a larger, ongoing project to study foreign policy knowledge. […]

Survey respondents identified Ukraine by clicking on a high-resolution world map, shown above. […]

About one in six (16 percent) Americans correctly located Ukraine, clicking somewhere within its borders. Most thought that Ukraine was located somewhere in Europe or Asia, but the median respondent was about 1,800 miles off — roughly the distance from Chicago to Los Angeles — locating Ukraine somewhere in an area bordered by Portugal on the west, Sudan on the south, Kazakhstan on the east, and Finland on the north.

I can potentially see myself confusing e.g. Ghana and Ivory Coast during a lapse of attention or under time pressure — the rough equivalent of confusing Ukraine with e.g. Romania or Belarus — but where on earth did they manage to find all the people who strayed so far from the rough vicinity of East-Central Europe? (Especially seeing how it's been all over the news recently.)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #573 –
Jax, where's your map of American Earth?
Well, when I was a schoolboy, I had difficulties to imagine political entities south and east of Moscow. However, I could imagine Siberia and the Far East separately. There were difficulties with Middle and South Asian countries -- I always had problems with Asia. I guess Soviet pedagogic bosses were leaving it to the military and KGB to ponder about.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #574 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Here's something so bizarre I don't know what to think of it.

From that article:
Quote
The less people know about where Ukraine is located on a map, the more they want the U.S. to intervene militarily.

So 84 percent couldn't correctly locate Ukraine.
No wonder that GW Bush had such a great support for going to war. ::)