Where debating everything under the sun is only the beginning

I will be interested to hear how EU is built on superior foundations and even "inherently" so when they have no common defence force, no coherent constitution, and lack the backing of the grassroot population.

What I saw on Iraq and Georgia and what I see now on Ukraine is indecision and inertia. I don't see any redeeming qualities, much less "inherently superior foundations".

Besides, EU's pressure on Ukraine, the so-called integration effort, was aggravating the political atmosphere there and is partly guilty of the current situation, IMHO.

The EU toppled a dictatorship with a tiny bit of economic pressure? If so, inertia my ass.

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-03-28, 13:57:39

Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?

Yes. And why do you ask?

I understand that Putin is a ruthless dictator. But when did Ukraine become dictatorship?

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 14:04:03

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-03-28, 13:57:39

Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?

Yes. And why do you ask?

Nothing special... going from West to East across Europe I think Ukrainians are the first Slavs we find, at least at a more Southern route.  A different world.
It made me think about it seeing so many specialists at Slav affairs.

Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 14:03:26

I will be interested to hear how EU is built on superior foundations and even "inherently" so when they have no common defence force, no coherent constitution, and lack the backing of the grassroot population.

I disagree with the last one, while the first two exemplify its inherently superior foundations. This is not an empire based on military might, even though we do have it.

Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 14:03:26

What I saw on Iraq and Georgia and what I see now on Ukraine is indecision and inertia. I don't see any redeeming qualities, much less "inherently superior foundations".

Indecision and inertia are inherently superior to actively doing bad things. Perhaps you'd prefer to call it somewhat less bad, but it simply doesn't follow from your own argument that the EU is as bad as Russia.

Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 14:03:26

Besides, EU's pressure on Ukraine, the so-called integration effort, was aggravating the political atmosphere there and is partly guilty of the current situation, IMHO.

The EU toppled a dictatorship with a tiny bit of economic pressure? If so, inertia my ass.

Eastern Ukraine does not consist of a majority of ethnic Russians, and it overwhelmingly voted to leave the USSR.

All Putin can do is put up a show at the border and hope it'll destabilize the government, but it won't. Inertia? No, Putin has shown his hand and it's all he's got. Ukraine will be free.

Quote from: Frenzie

Eastern Ukraine does not consist of a majority of ethnic Russians, and it overwhelmingly voted to leave the USSR.

Depends on how you delimit "Eastern Ukraine". It's easily delimitable so that the majority is Russian.

Weakness and easy divisibility from outside don't count as superior foundations for me.

By easy divisibility from outside I mean these things: Remember how Rumsfeld divided Europe into New and Old?

Noticed how countries bordering Russia receive a radically different trade treatment from Russia than those further away, and Brussels consistently rejects the complaints of the member countries? Meaning, Brussels actively and persistently turns a blind eye to the problem, acting as if Putin's puppet (there's no other way to put this). Do you know how the former Iron Curtain block is treated by major global sales websites (basically, by world banks) as some kind of third world akin to Russia, instead of as EU? This applies to Estonia even now when we have the f'n euro currency. Different fees and access (i.e. lack of access) compared to the "main" EU when making purchases on major websites.

In my book, ignorance and indecision are vices. When you said "inherently superior foundations" I honestly expected virtues. Instead you think that comparatively lesser vices should make the case for you. They don't for me. An arguably lesser vice is still vice.

I don't think Yanukovych's regime was a dictatorship to any notable degree. If you insist it was, then he was a very weak and incompetent dictator, because he failed to subdue the prolonged riots, he failed to mobilise the army against them. Machine-gunning the rioters would have been a normal move for a dictator. He didn't do it.

Again, vide Crimea. Yanukovych has called for Crimea-type referendums in all Ukraine's regions. This would effectively be the end of Ukraine and annexation into Russia. Zhirinovsky (an ever-present vocal member of Russia's parliament) has invited Romania and Poland take a bite.

General Assembly approves resolution on Ukraine, Crimea region

The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday approved a resolution that called the recent referendum on the Crimea region illegal and reiterated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The symbolic resolution passed with 100 votes in favor, 11 votes against and 58 abstentions. "This support has come from all corners of the world, which shows that this [is] not only a regional matter but a global one," said Andriy Deshchytsia, Ukraine's foreign minister.

I expect a Democratic Union of Europe (or something along those lines) will form in due time. Perhaps sooner rather than later if Putin keeps up his antics. Heck, we might just as well say this is a fantastic opportunity.

I do see that e.g. Amazon.de charges more for shipping to Estonia than to the rest of the world. :: That's just bizarre.

Note that Germany has the most soft power in the world, followed primarily by other EU members (and the US).

Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 14:04:03

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-03-28, 13:57:39

Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?

Yes. And why do you ask?

Nothing special... going from West to East across Europe I think Ukrainians are the first Slavs we find, at least at a more Southern route.

This was described by Russian fabulist Krylov long time ago.

Slovenia, the Chech Republic, Poland, Croatia, Slovakia, Serbia.
Do you still live in Europe or have you moved to the South American ex colony

General Assembly approves resolution on Ukraine, Crimea region

The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday approved a resolution that called the recent referendum on the Crimea region illegal and reiterated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The symbolic resolution passed with 100 votes in favor, 11 votes against and 58 abstentions. "This support has come from all corners of the world, which shows that this [is] not only a regional matter but a global one," said Andriy Deshchytsia, Ukraine's foreign minister.

Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 09:27:16

Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52

The West because they are idiots

I'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?

If you have the capacity to resolve the situation without injuries, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't meddle. In this conflict, the EU was not merely observing.

I don't think the EU has the capacity to resolve the situation. The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy. EU's foreign policy is completely dictated by United States and, inasmuch as it's not purely dictated, it's inert and indecisive due to the separate interests of the big member states.

Surely only Croatia and Serbia are part of this southern route thing?

Quote from: UN Wire

General Assembly approves resolution on Ukraine, Crimea region

The United Nations General Assembly on Thursday approved a resolution that called the recent referendum on the Crimea region illegal and reiterated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. The symbolic resolution passed with 100 votes in favor, 11 votes against and 58 abstentions. "This support has come from all corners of the world, which shows that this [is] not only a regional matter but a global one," said Andriy Deshchytsia, Ukraine's foreign minister.

Many sources say about isolation of Russia. Yet, 69 countries (including major players like China, India, Brazil) said that they don't care. This hardly can be interpreted as isolation.

I do disagree with the last bit, as we merely "suggest" what we'd like done, and the EU either goes along with what we want, to their/our benefit, or don't, and they reap no benefits.

I think that most folk actually couldn't care much at all actually.Russia isn't thbully Southern wag and kind of ironic laugh considering what you lot do across the world when it suits and all in your "interest" and "security." Ukraine;s fiasco was created by itself and the coup by the neo-Nazis.Bemusing how the US and EEC neatly sidestep that matter. Just wait everyone to see the shambles coming with the austerity package I mentioned. And thank goodness there is a substantial country in the world which will not have it's strings pulled by the West. That is what gets up the nose of the White House and their motley bunch of would-be backers the nearly done in EEC. And why wasn't their a decision by the UN on the democratically elected government being illegally overthrown. When Obama mouthed off with his usual boring play on words about the world being behind himhe gets a wee reminder of all those who didn't vote for what he wanted.

As for Crimea it has returned home and will do better in the Russian Federation economically and infrastructure. Abridge is planned to the mainland and all done by a parliamentary vote unlike the diabolical bunch of head bangers in Kiev. I will be looing with interest on Ukrainian reactions when austerity hits them with a heavy toll.

I think that most folk actually couldn't care much at all actually.Russia isn't thbully Southern wag and kind of ironic laugh considering what you lot do across the world when it suits and all in your "interest" and "security." Ukraine;s fiasco was created by itself and the coup by the neo-Nazis.Bemusing how the US and EEC neatly sidestep that matter. Just wait everyone to see the shambles coming with the austerity package I mentioned. And thank goodness there is a substantial country in the world which will not have it's strings pulled by the West. That is what gets up the nose of the White House and their motley bunch of would-be backers the nearly done in EEC. And why wasn't their a decision by the UN on the democratically elected government being illegally overthrown. When Obama mouthed off with his usual boring play on words about the world being behind himhe gets a wee reminder of all those who didn't vote for what he wanted.

As for Crimea it has returned home and will do better in the Russian Federation economically and infrastructure. Abridge is planned to the mainland and all done by a parliamentary vote unlike the diabolical bunch of head bangers in Kiev. I will be looing with interest on Ukrainian reactions when austerity hits them with a heavy toll.

I remember when you first came to the Myopera forums, you posted in favour of Mussolini. Well, he's back and Russian this time.

Only Mussolini? Didn't we appoint Hitler title to Putin already?

Whatever Putin is up to, it has nothing to do with European or US security. Putin is not Hitler.