Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #425 – 2014-03-28, 06:22:56 Yesterday Putin saved Ukraine from shame.Ukrainian nationalists threaten to storm parliament after leader's killingStorm was canceled after speech of Lyashko. Among other things he said that those who will storm parliament are accomplices of Putin.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #426 – 2014-03-28, 06:29:51 I support Russia's initiative in Crimea and Alex Salmond's devolution initiative in Scotland.I also support this brilliant suggestion.[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rygWtvOeSw[/video]
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #427 – 2014-03-28, 08:23:40 Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-03-28, 02:23:00There has essentially been silence on this Forum regarding that telephone chat between the EEC boss and the Estonian Foreitn Minister. Same too for the Assistant Secretary of State in DC who used the a phone call that the EEC should "f--- off." So much for Obam and the chums in the EEC. Now we have another call by that crazy woman who is a former Prime Minister of Ukraine and her rancid conversation.What about the phone calls? You are free to give your opinion.Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-03-28, 02:23:00For Obama to say his admin had no involvement or wanted such in the internal affairs of Ukraine is a lie. I don't care to calculate specifically what kind of influence the Western powers have over the situation, but let's assume that the current Ukrainian government is dancing like puppets on strings. Let's just assume this for the sake of the argument. If this be so, then is there any reason to believe that Russians have any less power over their own fans? Naturally Russians have much more influence and they are not hiding it either. Whatever outcome the West wanted from the riots etc., it could not have involved losing Crimea and the danger of losing the rest of Ukraine too. Who did it? Russians did it. It wasn't the West handing the entire Black Sea over to Russians. It's just the West being idiot jerks and losers when dealing with a bully exactly like in the beginning of the previous world war.Krake keeps asking Cui bono. The answer is obvious enough.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #428 – 2014-03-28, 08:39:38 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:23:40Krake keeps asking Cui bono. The answer is obvious enough.Putin financed, initiated and supported the putsch. The Right Sector is his covert army.Your logic is amazing!
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #429 – 2014-03-28, 08:57:52 Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 08:39:38Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:23:40Krake keeps asking Cui bono. The answer is obvious enough.Putin financed, initiated and supported the putsch. The Right Sector is his covert army.Your logic is amazing!No, your logic is amazing. Funny how in this conflict you choose your side and make that side all-good. In real life it never works this way. To me both sides are bad. The West because they are idiots and Russia because they are a bully. Ukraine is in an unhappy power vacuum. To make this a pretext for invasion is bullying. And whoever brought about the power vacuum is a moron ignorant of political realities. With a bully next door, the last thing you want is a power vacuum in your country.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #430 – 2014-03-28, 09:27:16 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52The West because they are idiotsI'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?Although from playground experience, I suppose fighting fire with fire does work. A bully was once on the verge of making me a victim, but a quick playground fight favorably resolved that situation.(Confession: one of my biggest regrets is an act of bullying in which I participated when I was five years old.)
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #431 – 2014-03-28, 11:41:27 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 09:27:16Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52The West because they are idiotsI'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?It's simple: don't create situations like this. Coup in Kiev became successful because Yanukovich was pressed by Western powers. So, West allowed street mob (with strong neo-Nazi element, BTW) to overthrow Yanukovich. And the result? Crimea goes to Russia, Ukraine is on the edge and may collapse further.It's not clear what exactly motives were used by Western politicians when they pressed Yanukovich. Maybe, ersi is right here: they did this simply because they are idiots.Of course, Yanukovich is a bad guy. But now it's clear that overthrowing him was not the best scenario for Ukraine.As for Russian role. Well, Putin just used this situation to cheaply and easily get strategic region.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #432 – 2014-03-28, 11:53:59 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 09:27:16Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52The West because they are idiotsI'm probably an idiot too, or hopefully just ignorant, but what would you propose to oppose the bully without venturing into bully territory yourself?I assume by "venturing into bully territory" you mean "display the same characteristics". Depends of course, particularly when you are a third party merely observing the conflict. If you have the capacity to resolve the situation without injuries, then by all means do it. If you don't, then don't meddle. In this conflict, the EU was not merely observing. They are in it through and through, both sucking Russian gas on one side and trying to "integrate" Ukraine on the other, and these factors have been at play when dealing with Russia's bullying. Or rather failing to deal with it.I don't think the EU has the capacity to resolve the situation. Their track record is no good. They failed at Kosovo, dissolution of Yugoslavia. The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy. EU's foreign policy is completely dictated by United States and, inasmuch as it's not purely dictated, it's inert and indecisive due to the separate interests of the big member states. In this case, the best they could do was to condemn the bullying immediately and harshly, unequivocally cite the illegitimacy of the annexation and cut away from Russian gas and other important trade items. But there's no way EU could show its best. Just like with Ukraine they tried to get Ukraine bend to some demands and then "integrate" it - and failed at both - they are now trying both to "punish" Russia with sanctions while retaining the gas. Retaining the gas means there's no punishment at all, obviously. No backbone, no nothing. Big fail.I don't pretend to be some expert at coaxing bullies. Let's just analyse the situation rationally. Often there's nothing in the situation to necessitate a favourable outcome for the victim. In fact, if there were a favourable outcome for the victim, there would be no victim really, right? To merit the honorable title of bully, the situation must develop so that there is a clear victim, meaning there's some damage done already or at least immediate danger of it. Bullies get to bully because there quite objectively isn't anyone to hold them back (such as a bigger bully) or because it's not in the character of bystanders to condemn the situation and express their discontent. In this case, the EU does not have in the character to do anything and the United States is the bigger bully that respects the interests of the fellow bully. In terms of realpolitik, the victim's only option usually is to take the beating, whine, knock on conscience, and beg for mercy. It's the natural thing to do. Sometimes works so that the victim survives in some shape, but even if the victim doesn't survive he shall have expressed his point of view. My personal recommendation for the victim would have been to express it more effectively. Instead of giving away the territory and army in Crimea (you shouldn't cooperate with the bully!) to unleash the little force you have on the enemy. That's what soldiers are supposed to do - fight - and fighting to keep their own territory is meritorious to their kamma (if they are Theravada Buddhists) and appeasing to their conscience (if they are normal human beings of any other persuasion). Ukraine should have mobilised itself immediately, but didn't. Weak attitude that further favours the bully. At any rate, let there be no unclarity about who is the bully and who is the victim.Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 11:41:27As for Russian role. Well, Putin just used this situation to cheaply and easily get strategic region.Now let's be clear: This is not an innocent role. It's international aggression according to UN's definition. The security council just doesn't get the relevant resolutions through against Russia since Russia has veto right, the same way as it can't get resolutions through against Israel since United States has veto right.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #433 – 2014-03-28, 12:07:49 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 11:53:59Retaining the gas means there's no punishment at all, obviously.I think that you oversimplify everything when you limit EU-Russia trade relationships to gas only. EU sells many goods to Russia, many EU companies work in Russia, many Russian companies work in EU. So, situation is not that turn off gas - and Russia is punished. If needed - Russia can respond in multiple other areas, and this response will be painful for EU.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #434 – 2014-03-28, 12:10:02 I have a simple response to the situation in Ukraine and Crimea in the form of a question.Are you willing to go to war over Russia's move in Crimea or his moving troops to the Ukrainian border?Whatever Putin is up to, it has nothing to do with European or US security. Putin is not Hitler.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #435 – 2014-03-28, 12:10:34 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 11:53:59gasThe situation with gas is not the same as with some other trade.You treat the contracts in advance, which contracts get you obliged for quite a period of time. Your money are usually already paid, let alone that tube transportation is not the same as moving lorries.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #436 – 2014-03-28, 12:15:28 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 11:41:27[the ]Coup in Kiev became successful because Yanukovich was pressed by Western powers.Good Lord!If a country is so vulnerable and can't resolve its internal bollocks by itself - what country is it? :gosh:
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #437 – 2014-03-28, 12:16:40 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 11:53:59Ukraine should have mobilised itself immediately, but didn't.I think that when Russian troops were found in Crimea - Turchinov declared mobilization. Less than 5% of reservists were "mobilized".
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #438 – 2014-03-28, 12:23:28 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52To me both sides are bad.So we have to bad parts now. I would call this a progress on your part Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52The West because they are idiots and Russia because they are a bully.Only question is why you are considering the West to be an idiot?a. Because it financed, initiated and supported the putsch?b. Because it didn't already start WWIII so it can teach bully Russia a historical lesson?Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52Ukraine is in an unhappy power vacuum.And who is to blame for?Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52To make this a pretext for invasion is bullying.Maybe. However, we have witnessed much worse pretexts for invading a country and it's not long ago since it happened.You might be surprized that Putin's bully Russia has also its national interests even so those interests don't impair the whole globe.Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 08:57:52And whoever brought about the power vacuum is a moron ignorant of political realities.It's hard to argue with that. However you may oversee some aspects.a. Nobody is perfect.b. It's very difficult to organize a putsch abroad by using a mixture of fascists and oligarchs.c. Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.It might be annoying that it wasn't enough time to also kick out the Russian Black Sea fleet from Crimea but you can't have everything at once in life.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #439 – 2014-03-28, 12:27:36 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 12:16:40I think that when Russian troops were found in Crimea - Turchinov declared mobilization. Less than 5% of reservists were "mobilized".Not to mention that 75% of the Ukrainian troops in Crimea defected.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #440 – 2014-03-28, 12:48:22 Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 11:53:59I assume by "venturing into bully territory" you mean "display the same characteristics".As they say, intent isn't magic. If you're acting like a bully but you didn't intend to be a bully, you're still acting like a bully. So yes, pretty much.Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 11:53:59The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy.I think I disagree with you there. While I do think we need a European defense force, I'm of the opinion that our empire is built on inherently superior foundations to those of the classical empires of the US and Russia. Not invading Iraq or Georgia on a whim is one of our defining characteristics.Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 12:23:28a. Because it financed, initiated and supported the putsch?This has been brewing for ten years. Ask any of your Ukrainian friends.Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 12:23:28c. Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.A weakened Europe is not in the interest of the US.Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 12:23:28Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.Putin isolates Russia, just like how Bush isolated the US. I don't think we even handed him a shovel.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #441 – 2014-03-28, 13:01:25 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 12:48:22Not invading Iraq or Georgia on a whim is one of our defining characteristics.I don't understand why Iraq can be compared to Georgia. Let me remind what happened in Georgia. Russian peacekeepers were located in South Ossetia since 1992. Saakashvilli decided that it will be good idea to attack them. So, he did this, and as further events shown - this was really bad idea.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #442 – 2014-03-28, 13:14:46 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 12:48:22While I do think we need a European defense force, I'm of the opinion that our empire is built on inherently superior foundations to those of the classical empires of the US and Russia.If army of Banana Republic will attack European soldiers - what will you do? Say brilliant speech explaining why attacking European soldiers is a wrong thing? Or, maybe, respond in a way which will guarantee that attack like this will not repeat in the future?
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #443 – 2014-03-28, 13:20:30 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 13:01:25Let me remind what happened in Georgia. Russian peacekeepers were located in South Ossetia since 1992. Saakashvilli decided that it will be good idea to attack them."Blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah"..."Watch our russian television - the ultimate truth to the Universe!":faint:
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #444 – 2014-03-28, 13:27:50 Quote from: Josh on 2014-03-28, 13:20:30Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 13:01:25Let me remind what happened in Georgia. Russian peacekeepers were located in South Ossetia since 1992. Saakashvilli decided that it will be good idea to attack them."Blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah"..."Watch our russian television - the ultimate truth to the Universe!":faint:You can get the same information from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_warFor details follow links in Wikipedia - all links are almost exclusively to Western media.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #445 – 2014-03-28, 13:29:25 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 12:48:22Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 12:23:28a. Because it financed, initiated and supported the putsch?This has been brewing for ten years. Ask any of your Ukrainian friends.Of course it was brewing for a long time. The 5 billions the USA invested for regime change in Ukraine was paid over the years.Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 12:48:22Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 12:23:28c. Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.A weakened Europe is not in the interest of the US.I know what the official slogan is but you should better ask Zbigniew Brzezinski Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 12:48:22Quote from: krake on 2014-03-28, 12:23:28Most important, main task was already accomplished. Namely, isolation of Russia, division among European countries and an easier integration of a weakened Europe to follow US interests.Putin isolates Russia, just like how Bush isolated the US. I don't think we even handed him a shovel.Bush didn't isolate the USA. There's always 'hope' for a coalition of willing.What he did was to divide Europe into "New" and "Old". Last Edit: 2014-03-28, 13:40:13 by krake
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #446 – 2014-03-28, 13:33:20 Quote from: sergey-pypyrev on 2014-03-28, 13:01:25I don't understand why Iraq can be compared to Georgia.It's not meant to be understood. It's just cheap rhetoric. Simply as that
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #448 – 2014-03-28, 14:03:26 Quote from: Frenzie on 2014-03-28, 12:48:22Quote from: ersi on 2014-03-28, 11:53:59The EU has no military backbone and not even in terms of some general foreign policy.I think I disagree with you there. While I do think we need a European defense force, I'm of the opinion that our empire is built on inherently superior foundations to those of the classical empires of the US and Russia. Not invading Iraq or Georgia on a whim is one of our defining characteristics.I will be interested to hear how EU is built on superior foundations and even "inherently" so when they have no common defence force, no coherent constitution, and lack the backing of the grassroot population. To me the EU is an echo-chamber of the political caste of the member countries. It's echo-chamber in the worst sense: They only like to hear their own voice and get nothing relevant done, particularly when it comes to the topic - foreign policy. What I saw on Iraq and Georgia and what I see now on Ukraine is indecision and inertia. I don't see any redeeming qualities, much less "inherently superior foundations". Besides, EU's pressure on Ukraine, the so-called integration effort, was aggravating the political atmosphere there and is partly guilty of the current situation, IMHO.
Re: Tripe about Ukraine Reply #449 – 2014-03-28, 14:04:03 Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-03-28, 13:57:39Ukrainians are Slavs aren't they?Yes. And why do you ask?
Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 232212 times)
