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Topic: What's Going on in Europe (Read 256367 times)

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #750
Quote
The International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia (ICTY) in The Hague has quietly cleared the late Serbian president, Slobodan Milosevic, of war crimes committed during the 1992-95 Bosnian war, including the massacre at Srebrenica.
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Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #751
Boy, talk about a horrible blog post. No links or anything. I assume he's talking about this: http://www.icty.org/x/cases/karadzic/tjug/en/160324_judgement.pdf

Troublingly, it does not quite include the quote "condemned ethnic cleansing." Sure, it's close enough for the distinction to be functionally irrelevant, but it doesn't inspire confidence in the author.

Quote from: Par. 3280
In March 1992, in a meeting with international representatives, Slobodan Milošević
described the situation in BiH as similar to “dynamite”, and if anyone favoured one of the parties,
there would be hell but he had called the Accused and told him to “cool it”. 10530 Milošević also
said that Yugoslavia hoped for intensive links with BiH. 10531 Later in the war, in meetings with
international representatives, Milošević also made assurances that he would speak to the Bosnian
Serbs, that he continued to condemn “ethnic cleansing” [emphasis mine] but that the world was “satanizing” the
Serbs without condemning actions by the other parties.

Anyway, so in saying that Milosevic claimed something they exonerated him? Give me a break. :)

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #752
Bosnia itself had no great reputation during WW2 and murdered large numbers of Serbs so things are not just as simply straightforward as thought.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #753
Boy, talk about a horrible blog post.
OK, I see. I also recall that we had a while back a discussion about this. ;)
You vindicated the 'official version' of the story at that time and probably do so now.
No, I won't mention this time other countries and their questionable merits before, during and after that war. So I won't hurt 'patriotic' feelings of others and will conform to the saying: Everyone should put his own house in order first.
A documentary (I know you don't like documentaries or at least not some) about the ugly part played at highest political level (Chancellor/G.Schröder, Foreign Secretary/J.Fischer and Secretary of Defense/R.Scharping) by my country.

Deutschlands Weg in den Kosovo-Krieg - Es begann mit einer Lüge / Germany's path in the Kosovo war - It started with a lie

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtkQYRlXMNU[/video]

And no, it wasn't a humanitarian war military intervention, alike those following in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya or Syria which weren't either.
It was about to expand the controll over the Balkans (finally after WWII) by establishing a permanent military presence.
BTW, Kosovo is hosting today one of Europe's biggest military bases...
As for Western Europe's benefit - new markets (good luck with them) and hordes of refugees trying to escape the consequences of our 'humanitarian war intervention'.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #754
OK, I see. I also recall that we had a while back a discussion about this.  ;)
You vindicated the 'official version' of the story at that time and probably do so now.
Maybe I would, but that's not why I called it a horrible blogpost. I quite literally said in the next sentence, "No links or anything." You write a blogpost, you link to what you're talking about.[1] Anyway, while I was trying to figure out what the author was even talking about, I discovered that they seem to be just plain wrong about what the ICC did. They simply wrote that Milosevic himself said that he "continued to condemn."

Some further searching suggests the specific misquote came from a site dedicated to defending Milosevic: http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/news/smorg-aw071816.htm To that site's credit they properly source their claims. Unfortunately for them, that makes them all the easier to check. It doesn't improve things any in terms of accuracy, but contrary to the awful blogpost they might've fooled me with proper appearances, except of course that the location itself would certainly give cause for extra scruteny. Regarding accuracy, for example, they claim that the trial chamber "unanimously concluded that Slobodan Milosevic was not part of a “joint criminal enterprise” to victimize Muslims and Croats during the Bosnian war." Further down, they write that "The ICTY did nothing to publicize the fact that they had cleared Milosevic of involvement in the joint criminal enterprise. They quietly buried that finding 1,303 pages into the 2,590 page Karadzic verdict knowing full well that most people would probably never bother to read it."

Well, I'm reading it now. Back to case IT-95-5/18-T.
Quote from: Footnote 10558
The Chamber does not rely on Zametica’s general opinion that there was no joint criminal
enterprise between the Accused and Milošević or that Milošević was not interested in a Greater Serbia (emphasis mine).
Oh, shoot! What was it they wrote again?
In a stunning ruling, the trial chamber that convicted former Bosnian-Serb president Radovan Karadzic of war crimes and sentenced him to 40 years in prison, unanimously concluded that Slobodan Milosevic was not part of a “joint criminal enterprise” to victimize Muslims and Croats during the Bosnian war.
And let's reread the actual ruling:
Quote from: Footnote 10558
The Chamber does not rely on Zametica’s general opinion that there was no joint criminal
enterprise between the Accused and Milošević or that Milošević was not interested in a Greater Serbia (emphasis mine).
Need I say more? Yes, yes I do. Because they may not have been talking about that. They said 1303 pages in. Okay, let's do it. Page 1302/1303. Not that the phrase in question occurs there as such with regard to Milosevic… we do have this:

Quote from: Footnote 11025
Šešelj also stated there was no joint criminal enterprise between the Accused, himself,
and other individuals to expel Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats and that the Accused did not have an
antagonistic attitude towards Bosnian Muslims and Bosnian Croats. […] The Chamber does not find this evidence to be reliable. In reaching that conclusion, the Chamber considered that Šešelj had a clear self-interest in
testifying in this regard and his evidence was marked by political statements
(emphasis mine).

And:

Quote from: Footnote 11027
The Chamber notes that the relationship between Milošević and the Accused had deteriorated beginning in
1992; by 1994, they no longer agreed on a course of action to be taken. Furthermore, beginning as early as
March 1992, there was apparent discord between the Accused and Milošević in meetings with international
representatives, during which Milošević and other Serbian leaders openly criticised Bosnian Serb leaders of
committing “crimes against humanity” and “ethnic cleansing” and the war for their own purposes (emphasis mine). See paras.
3280, 3289–3297.
It's almost as if the ICC were saying… the exact opposite!

Okay, I skipped a step. That's the footnote to paragraph 3460.
Quote
With regard to the evidence presented in this case in relation to Slobodan Milošević and his
membership in the JCE, the Chamber recalls that he shared and endorsed the political objective of
the Accused and the Bosnian Serb leadership to preserve Yugoslavia and to prevent the separation
or independence of BiH and co-operated closely with the Accused during this time. The Chamber
also recalls that Milošević provided assistance in the form of personnel, provisions, and arms to the
Bosnian Serbs during the conflict. 11026 However, based on the evidence before the Chamber
regarding the diverging interests that emerged between the Bosnian Serb and Serbian leaderships
during the conflict and in particular, Milošević’s repeated criticism and disapproval of the policies
and decisions made by the Accused and the Bosnian Serb leadership, 11027 the Chamber is not
satisfied that there was sufficient evidence presented in this case to find that Slobodan Milošević
agreed with the common plan
(emphasis mine).
I guess that must be what they're talking about, yet none of the references on the Milosevic fansite are to paragraph 3460. So we're still left with a guessing game. Anyway, this hardly counts as quietly exonerating, and not just because the case wasn't about Milosevic anyway, but because this is what footnote 11027 applies to. And remember, that said "apparent discord […] for their own purposes."
The reason I like the non-blog Charlie Hebdo, for example, is not because of the illustrations or its political leanings. What I like is that they say what they're talking about in footnotes so you don't have to guess.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #755
A documentary (I know you don't like documentaries or at least not some) about the ugly part played at highest political level (Chancellor/G.Schröder, Foreign Secretary/J.Fischer and Secretary of Defense/R.Scharping) by my country.

Although, just like with video material, I've got years and years and years of books to choose from at any moment, so it's not like I don't have unread books that've been sitting around for a decade either. The difference is that I could in principle probably binge-watch all of my video material within a month or two.

Incidentally, I recently watched L'ennemi intime. I think you might not dislike it, although the protagonist is perhaps a bit… convenient.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #756
@Frenzie
If you start a war humanitarian military intervention based on a lie, someone will get the job for trying to justify your bombs (in this case, bombs over Serbia).
This ungrateful part was left to the ICTY...
Fortunately, the International Criminal Tribunal doesn't have to justify other humanitarian military interventions as well - like that of Iraq for instance.

For those not speaking German - English subtitles (slightly shortened version)
"It Began With a Lie"

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljEAyryiwsg[/video]

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #757
Here's an easier to process transcript of the broadcast: http://www.ag-friedensforschung.de/themen/NATO-Krieg/ard-sendung.html

But you seem to be missing the point of my source criticism. Your quoted paragraph by all accounts appears to be plain wrong. Is the ICTY full of shit? It's not impossible, after all even proper trials have a great aspect of theatricality, but we're certainly not going to find out from an intellectually reckless individual who can't be bothered to check his facts or share his sources while aping some Milosevic apologetics site in lieu of reading what the ICTY actually wrote.


Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #759
The French wrote the book on COIN (counter-insurgency strategy, and tactics…) from their experiences in Algeria; brutal stuff. An American general named Abrams updated it… And his strategy was working fairly well in Viet Nam. Then  the American Democrat-controlled Congress decided to lose the war and desert our allies.

Next came "nation-building"… That worked out well, didn't it? :(

The idea that war solves nothing is just plain stupid: War solves most things, excepting old grievances… :) And even those stop festering, effectively, after a generation or two. War is the state between peaces…
The "kinder, gentler" ways of dealing with conflicts has cost millions of lives. Thousands or hundreds of thousands of live might well have been better, no?

The Euro-centric peace via the European Union ignores the bear about to come back into what it sees as its cave: Russia.

So: Should the U.S. refrain from engaging…? What say you?
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #760
With Obama, the USA abandoned their omnipresent geo-strategy in favour for a localized approach. As usual, it was done in such a poor way that the result was disastrous.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #761
The idea that war solves nothing is just plain stupid: War solves most things, excepting old grievances… :) And even those stop festering, effectively, after a generation or two. War is the state between peaces…
Or peace is the state between wars for some.
Napalm, depleted uranium or death squads as medicine for shaping the world to meet US interests while pretending to save mankind.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #762
Clausewitz was always right, war being the continuation of diplomacy by other means...
There's no hope.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #763
The French wrote the book on COIN (counter-insurgency strategy, and tactics…) from their experiences in Algeria; brutal stuff. An American general named Abrams updated it… And his strategy was working fairly well in Viet Nam. Then  the American Democrat-controlled Congress decided to lose the war and desert our allies.
At what point was the strategy working well? When the French had to call Americans to help them out? Or when the country was divided because it could not be conquered?

The idea that war solves nothing is just plain stupid: War solves most things, excepting old grievances… :) And even those stop festering, effectively, after a generation or two.
In some cases, no amount of generation solves the grievance of having been conquered. For example Indians, thoughout centuries, never really acceded to Moghul or British rule. As soon as the opportunity came, the foreign rule was thrown off and they pretty much reverted to as they had been.


Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #765
Liberal Regeneration? Now there's a negative!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #766
The pirates in Iceland have had great progress
Evaluating by the article's photo, the Pirates seems to me a bunch of house wifes...
A matter of attitude.


Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #768
And that he has a very good chance betrays much that many ignore.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #769
Soccer fan Pope Francis had a private audience with the German national football team.



Let's hope he didn't excommunicate them for beating Argentina in the 1914 World Cup final. :)

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #770
German national football team
Looking to their faces,the German National something seems to be delighted.
Pagans converting, what a boring spectacle.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #771
Well jimbro he is no longer trying and you are getting him. Serves you right for posh family boys throwing tea in a harbour.

Woo-hoo the old white socks man has an interest in football. The way things go in his corner he needs that added distraction!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #772
McDonald's sues Florence for 18m euros for blocking restaurant

Quote
McDonald's is suing Florence for €18m after it was blocked from opening a restaurant on one of the Italian city's most historic plazas.
The fast-food giant had its plans for an outlet on the Piazza del Duomo rejected by Florence's mayor in June.
The decision was upheld in July by a technical panel in charge of preserving the city's ancient heart.

This is the second high profile spat over an Italian location this year for McDonalds. Last month it was reported that cardinals at the Vatican had been angered by plans to open a branch in a piazza next to Saint Peter's Square.

Re: What's Going on in Europe

Reply #773
There is a solution.

Some communities are preventing Mac from building the arch "sign".

Frankly, I can't imagine why humans eat there because...