NATO nonsense

Topic: NATO nonsense (Read 128946 times)

NATO nonsense

2016-07-11, 03:05:27

What a bunch of cold war creation NATO is. It should have been got rid of when the Warsaw Pact lot went. Now troops funnelled into Poland and the Baltic States. When did Russia indicate it wanted to invade the Baltics or Poland? And that clown who is the person in charge of NATO was on television saying how united everyone was. Yet the President of France said publicly that there is no problem with Putin or Russia re France. Greece and Italy said similar - so much for the so-called unity. And the President of the USA came on moaning about how most of the NATO members are NOT spending 2% of their GDP on military.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #1 – 2016-07-11, 04:51:29

Howie, you can hardly speak English… What will you do, when you have to learn Russian — or Farsi or Aribic?

You'll take boys out for a walk in the forest! That's what you do. (During WW II, what did you do?)

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #2 – 2016-07-11, 07:22:23

We may no longer be teenagers, but none of us are old enough to have done anything constructive (or destructive) during WWII.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #3 – 2016-07-11, 08:19:07

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-11, 03:05:27

And the President of the USA came on moaning about how most of the NATO members are NOT spending 2% of their GDP on military.

He has a valid point. Namely, the US military industrial complex needs revenues. 2% of the EU's GDP would be a nice boost.
Best way to achieve this goal is to spread a climate of fear and animosity in Eastern Europe. That was the main job of four-star General P.M. Breedlove and he did his job quite well...
As for J. Stoltenberg, he has little to say within the NATO. He is merely the chief propagandist for public relations.

BTW, the actual military budget of the NATO is 13x compared to that of Russia.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #4 – 2016-07-11, 08:22:48

Jax, you seem not to know how old Howie is…

But you also miss the point of my comment.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #5 – 2016-07-11, 08:23:34

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on 2016-07-11, 04:51:29

What will you do, when you have to learn Russian — or Farsi or Aribic?

Or Tuvaluan?

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #6 – 2016-07-12, 01:25:24

Imagine a backward ex-colonist like Oakdale challenging me on language!

He is always the same because he cannot answer any charges made on anything and that includes this subject. Corporate militarism is a deep part of the US money barons control and having a big military saves adding more to the poverty and unemployment corner too. The point that Russia spends an awful lot less tells us something as well. Why couldn't the would-be satirist attempter Oakdale not try answering the points instead? NATO was there to combat the Warsaw Pact but when that dissolved NATO was kept alive as another control mechanism in the world by the West and especially America. In practical terms DC would be a bit more moral if they coped with all the internal issues like crime, police violence, wide poverty, unemployment and so on.#

Russia has absolutely no interest in taking European territory and what is going on with this attempt at intimidation is morally wrong.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #7 – 2016-07-12, 08:34:06

I've mentioned what Eisenhower had to say about NATO, and I can't say I disagree. But Europe -for some reason- thought it better to prolong the alliance… Perhaps for reasons similar to those that kept Scotland from becoming a nation, eh?

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-11, 17:25:24

Imagine a backward ex-colonist like Oakdale challenging me on language!

Imagine RJHowie calling anyone "backwards"!

And about language, no less!
It would surprise me if you could construct a grammatical sentence three words long… But I'm not surprised at the lengths you'll go to vent your spleen.
Still, I wonder why…

You, of course, don't: You think "introspection" is a version of enema.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #8 – 2016-07-12, 10:25:18

There is a valid point to insisting on fellow NATO members fulfilling their military expenditure requirements. This will allow this US to decrease its military budget and reduce the deficit. Howie, Russia did annex Crimea and fought a proxy war in Ukraine (yes evidence of Russia's involvement is all over the place), proving they can't be trusted in Eastern Europe. I would like to agree with you that NATO is a cold war relic, but Russia's actions say otherwise.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #9 – 2016-07-12, 11:20:55

Quote from: midnight raccoon – on 2016-07-12, 10:25:18

Russia did annex Crimea ...

You can parrot your administration's propaganda slogan as long as you like. It won't become more credible.

It was a secession as a result of the putsch staged in Kyiv by the USA with the help of the right sector. (F*ck the EU)

We want peace and wealth here in Europe. We don't want to be the fifth column of a world power which seeks to become the exclusive hegemon of the world...
Is this so hard to understand?
If some very few countries in Eastern Europe want to play the part of the fifth column, then they are free to do it on their own. Good luck!

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #10 – 2016-07-12, 11:27:31

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on 2016-07-11, 08:22:48

Jax, you seem not to know how old Howie is… But you also miss the point of my comment.

It didn't have one. The big battle in Europe is over Ukraine, by European standards a huge country in the middle of Europe (by Chinese or Indian standards it would just another province).

Quote from: jax – on 2016-05-11, 12:53:29

Militarily the goals are more limited. The EUropeans (and the Americans) want a rich, free and happy Ukraine as a productive new member, or at least solidly in the European zone of influence, while Putin want a poor hobbled country shackled to Kreml. The same goes for Belarus, Moldova, Georgia and the rest. Russia poses an actual military threat to the Baltic States, a theoretical one to Scandinavia.

NATO, even with a distracted US of A, is militarily stronger than Russia. In money spent certainly, but also in fighting ability. That doesn't mean that NATO is stronger everywhere.

On their own the Scandinavian countries would lose against Russia. There is a debate how long they would hold out, but they would eventually fall in days, very best case weeks. On the other hand Russia would be hard-pressed to hold these countries, all the juicy bits are behind some territory that is quite unfriendly to invaders, an Arctic Afghanistan if you like. The cost-benefits are not in Russia's favour. Nobody is seriously worried about a Russian invasion.

The Baltic States are a different story, these countries don't have much land (or people) and they are nearly defenceless. They are members of NATO, an organisation with all for one, one for all as a motto. These words aren't backed up by much in terms of military power. Yesterday was the anniversary of Srebrenica, showing that acts of solidarity can be harmful if not backed up. If Russia would want to invade the Baltic States nobody could stop them. The logical counter-move would then be for NATO to attack and invade Russia (Russia got lots of land to take, the Baltic States just a little). That would be quite costly, particularly if using the expensive full thermonuclear war option.

Poland got more land and way more people, particularly in Britain and Scandinavia, and would be harder to invade.

The Baltic States are not that strategically important to Russia, they are useful as a potential counter-move for threats to that which is strategically important to Russia, like Ukraine. It would have bad outcome for all parties, but it could be tempting. The NATO counter-move, similar to the DMZ in Korea, is to put up a tripwire of soldiers to die in case of an invasion, from multiple countries. This should void the Baltic gambit.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #11 – 2016-07-12, 11:43:23

Quote from: jax – on 2016-05-11, 12:53:29

(and the Americans) want a rich, free and happy Ukraine .... while Putin want a poor hobbled country shackled to Kreml.

South America comes to my mind. Wonder if you blame Putin as well for what is going on there since decades...

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #12 – 2016-07-13, 02:42:27

May I remind you midnight raccon that the nonsense used as an excuse regarding Russia is often the Ukraine where the Crimea voted to go back to Russia where it had been for so long. It was way back during the horrible USSR times that Crimea was shoved into Ukraine and the people had to keep mouths shut. And anyway if there had been volunteers from over in Russia helping the 2 eastern provinces of Ukraine so what? It is okay for the West to do what it damn well likes led by your own land and that is morally okay? The legitimate government of Ukraine was overthrown no matter what we might have thought about it and the regime there today is as corrupt as hell the economy disastrous and people not doing very well. When the coup took over they did not care a damn about the eastern provinces at all because the had a strong Russian tradition.

There is not one bit of truth that can be produced to show that Russia is after the 3 Baltic States or Poland and NATO again led by you-know-who are deliberately doing a Cold war return. The matter of economics does come into it but not in the way you put over. The corporate military industry is big, big business in the USA and that is paramount. Your country could save money by stopping creating situations to "justify" military presences. So the Baltic/Poland thing is a falsehood of blatant proportions and neither has Russia any intention of creating hundreds of military bases over the globe. Just think in a positive side how much you could help your own economy the millions of less well off over there if you just stopped all the excuses by the corporate rulers.

Your point regarding that members of a club should be paying is of course positive but that they don't (well we pay the 2%) and remember what i also stated regarding France, Italy and Greece on the needling of Russia. NATO is a waste of time, money and a nonsense. Generally your own country would be better off too if it went into history. Uh-ho if Ukraine collapses due to their self created mess you wil dish out more and make the debt worse!

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #13 – 2016-07-13, 02:49:22

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-12, 18:42:27

There is not one bit of truth that can be produced to show that Russia is after the 3 Baltic States or Poland […]

Except maybe fairly recent history. (I, of course, assume you use the term "truth" to mean proof. But I could be wrong: Onomatopoeia is your natural mode of language use, isn't it?

)

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #14 – 2016-07-13, 03:41:03

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-13, 02:42:27

May I remind you midnight raccon that the nonsense used as an excuse regarding Russia is often the Ukraine where the Crimea voted to go back to Russia where it had been for so long.

In Russia, voting does not have the same meaning as elsewhere in the world. Particularly under occupation. Crimea was under Russian occupation when the people voted. In 1940, under Soviet occupation, all three Baltic countries voted to become part of USSR.

For parallel, Kosovo voted under NATO occupation to become independent from Serbia. Russia does not recognise it as legitimate. Do you?

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #15 – 2016-07-13, 07:24:45

Someone once said, It doesn't matter how many votes go this way or that; it only matters, who counts the votes!

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #16 – 2016-07-13, 09:40:44

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on 2016-07-13, 07:24:45

Someone once said, It doesn't matter how many votes go this way or that; it only matters, who counts the votes!

Especially in Crimea.

Quote from: ersi – on 2016-07-13, 03:41:03

Particularly under occupation. Crimea was under Russian occupation when the people voted. In 1940, under Soviet occupation, all three Baltic countries voted to become part of USSR.

Exactly

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-13, 02:42:27

It was way back during the horrible USSR times that Crimea was shoved into Ukraine and the people had to keep mouths shut.

What about when Crimea was ethnically cleansed of the Tartars, you know the actual Crimeans? You say people didn't want to be added to Ukraine, but those were the Russians sent to replace the displaced Crimeans. What is it with your love affair with Russia these days anyway? Your "facts" are half-truths at best.

Maybe Crimea should be it's own small nation, part of neither Russia nor Ukraine. A small nation with a nice beach and subtropical climate would be great for a tourism based economy with legalized gambling (the GDP per capita would dwarf that of Russia and Ukraine in relatively short order.)

The objection is not that Crimea should be part of Ukraine, but Russia's actions there and in Ukraine. Personally, I would like to see the US defense budget slashed to about three percent of the GDP or so and leave NATO. But Putin has proved himself untrustworthy, so that's not feasible at this time.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #17 – 2016-07-13, 10:13:43

Quote from: OakdaleFTL – on 2016-07-13, 07:24:45

Someone once said, It doesn't matter how many votes go this way or that; it only matters, who counts the votes!

That's what voting machines are good for.
Whatever happens, nothing can go wrong.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #18 – 2016-07-15, 02:39:17

If there is a referendum that makes the US led NATO smile then it is portrayed as genuine but if not okayed by them then it is wrong!

Ukraine was part of the old Russian Imperial Empire for a long time may i remind. And her is another thing. Poland (!) and Russia split it between them. Interesting, eh? Anyway during WW2 the Ukraine had a Nazi puppet regime in place and fought with Hitler's lot and we see even today there are still extreme rightist wearing SS symbols who have been involved in the turmoil regarding the 2 eastern regions. The area has always had a racial Russo context and when the coup in Kiev happened they did not include the eastern Ukrainians at all because they were heavily Russian in race and orientation. That also tells you something about the Kiev mentality that the West is so keen to support. A bunch of corrupt, inefficient and useless idiots. So the 2 eastern areas were left out of the game and small wonder they have rebelled.

And may I again remind you all that where is the actual proof that Russia is after the 3 Baltic States or Poland. It is an utter nonsense for the NATO idiots to do as they are doing with NO evidence whatsoever. Of course the present attitude of NATO is what the string pullers in corporate military industry wants and they get away with it.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #19 – 2016-07-15, 23:15:57

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-15, 02:39:17

That also tells you something about the Kiev mentality that the West is so keen to support. A bunch of corrupt, inefficient and useless idiots

Give Kiev immediately to Putin, an incorrupt, efficient and useful idiot.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #20 – 2016-07-16, 01:18:09

Quote from: Belfrager – on 2016-07-15, 15:15:57

Give Kiev immediately to Putin, an incorrupt, efficient and useful idiot.

As always, ineffectual Europeans — willing to tell others to do what they don't dare or could never manage…

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #21 – 2016-07-16, 02:54:06

President Putin does not want Ukraine Belfrager as well you know. Maybe Portugal could be given away as I see you are in trouble with the EU over financial irregularity and a hefty fine. If it gets any worse in your place I do have spare accommodation but don't bring a crucifix!

Anyway, no-one has been able to contradict the hard fact that at no time has Russia indicated it is a threat to Poland or the Baltics and the reason is it has not happened nor will it. This is the West especially the string puller the USA wanting to be up to it's usual imperialist and military nonsense. Wish they would spend money on their own people instead of creating wars, de-stabilising those tht won't go under their financial control, etc. It is of course always irritating for the hawkish USA to get frustrated when there are countries thay cannot get away with controlling so well done Putin.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #22 – 2016-07-16, 06:41:31

Hey. Howie: How is it that Great Britain -with its "wide" democracy- and moral superiority (!)- became American stooges?

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #23 – 2016-07-16, 11:41:58

Because we too have people like you.

Re: NATO nonsense

Reply #24 – 2016-07-16, 20:37:06

Quote from: rjhowie – on 2016-07-16, 02:54:06

but don't bring a crucifix!

Course not, I'll just burn your entire house. Probably with you inside.