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Topic: Europe's Migrant Crisis (Read 34667 times)

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #51 –
Certainly as jimbro points out, America is a big place and Europe is of course not a country and many of the countries are not very big or have a lit of space and financial resources. About a third of the half a million flooded into Europeare Syerians but th rest come from all over the damn world and as far away from Europe as one can get - Yemen, Afghanistan, etc. That they think they can all just flood in willy-nilly from the far corners is a nerve and unacceptable.  When you see some of their placards the thumbs up and so on they seem to think they should be applauded. We have been heavily funding camps and to help move people but this other lot think they can ignore that and do what the they like.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #53 –
If I may, I'd like to broaden the context a bit because I think that what we are seeing now it's just a tip of the iceberg compared to what the world will face in the future.

The present crisis is seemingly about fleeing a war zone (Syria) yet what percentage of those people come from Syria?  The answer is that they come from all over the place, See here, paras 4, & 5. Yes war seems be a major reason, but there are others, as rjh has pointed out such as economic for example.

But what is the future: I suggest that, as resources diminish we will see greater instances of famine in different parts of the world; we will also continue to see economic differences which will result in mass migration; as global warming takes effect we may even see migration due to that, or even population pressures of other kinds as individual countries reach their limits.

What I miss in the current "debate", or at least what passes for one, is a long term policy on how to deal with such migrants "swarms" in the future. ((an aside: the words "swarm" was a word used by David Cameron and he got a lot of stick for using it, but in fact it is quite a good analogy for a bulk influx of people suddenly appearing)).

To continue: Such migrations will again raise the questions we have today; tough questions such as
--- Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture
--- Are they fleeing persecution or danger
--- Are they economic migrants
--- Should they all be resettled or sent back and by what criteria
--- Which country should take them in, their arrival point (current international law) or shared
--- shared by whom, locally, or across a continent, across similar cultures or across the whole world
--- Who should pay
--- Who is going to answer these questions, each country by itself or by international agreement

So lots of questions which I think need to be answered for the long term, and this is as good a crisis as any to start trying to answer.


Because it will happen again and again an again

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #54 –
There is statistics. The relatively safe waters between Turkey and Greece are predominantly travelled by Syrians, Iraqi, and Afghans. Some Eritreans take this route, and while the number of Yemeni fleeing their civil war has been relatively low, this number is likely to increase unless or until this conflict is ended.

Swarm is not and was not an appropriate word, as it was used with intent and pre-meditation to take away people's humanity and individuality. I see no particular reason to be upset by that, he wasn't calling them "cockroaches", but neither is it something to be applauded or emulated. Politicians live and die by the word, and this was no off-the-cuff remark. Words might matter, but action, or inaction, matters more.

Britain, and yes Cameron, has a particular responsibility, as they were the primary force to  torpedo the EU Mediterranean "Mare Nostrum" rescue fleet.  Their theory was that rescuing people from drowning would encourage them to take the journey, and Our Sea has overflowed with deeply discouraged dead. Dead people in their hundreds could be laid at the doorsteps of Downing Street 10, but that might be considered an encouragement.

The UK government can feel encouraged that less Syrians take the Libyan route now, but then it was often quite involuntary to begin with. Syrians and other Asians take more natural Asian routes these days, leaving it for the Africans to take their chances in Libya.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #55 –
At a first glance, I see too many questions:
Quote from: string on

To continue: Such migrations will again raise the questions we have today; tough questions such as
--- Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?
--- Are they fleeing persecution or danger And so what?
--- Are they economic migrants And so what?
--- Should they all be resettled or sent back and by what criteria Why not let them choose for themselves? Are they cattle? Are they criminals?
--- Which country should take them in, their arrival point (current international law) or shared Idem
--- shared by whom, locally, or across a continent, across similar cultures or across the whole world
--- Who should pay
--- Who is going to answer these questions, each country by itself or by international agreement
(...)
Because it will happen again and again an again

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #56 –
Well what an example of American high education Colonel Rebel is!

I am Catholic and the principles of Protestantism are with me on this one. Catholic of course means universal and I have no problem  - it is Roman Catholic that IS the prob. The word is used in some Kirk services at certain times and rightly so as we are part of a universal faith and at the same time not part of the wanderings of the Roman use of the wording. Many years ago i had to actually explain to a woman higher than me in the city Education Dept why when we all chatted about some religious item I referred to her as a Roman Catholic and not Catholic. For an intelligent woman she was not aware what the word 'Catholic' meant and there were times when an anti-religious bloke argued she had to fall back on the Catholic Protestant as she was incapbae. Thank you John Knox, Marton Luther and co (!).
:knight:
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #57 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

Well what an example of American high education Colonel Rebel is!

I am Catholic and the principles of Protestantism are with me on this one. Catholic of course means universal and I have no problem  - it is Roman Catholic that IS the prob. The word is used in some Kirk services at certain times and rightly so as we are part of a universal faith and at the same time not part of the wanderings of the Roman use of the wording. Many years ago i had to actually explain to a woman higher than me in the city Education Dept why when we all chatted about some religious item I referred to her as a Roman Catholic and not Catholic. For an intelligent woman she was not aware what the word 'Catholic' meant and there were times when an anti-religious bloke argued she had to fall back on the Catholic Protestant as she was incapbae. Thank you John Knox, Marton Luther and co (!).
:knight:

Since you've decided to be tiddling and nit-picky, I'll add "Roman" to my previous statement, right before the term "Catholic".


P.S.
Scotland will be independent in your lifetime.  :yikes: :eyes: :nervous:

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #58 –
Quote from: jax on

There is statistics. The relatively safe waters between Turkey and Greece are predominantly travelled by Syrians, Iraqi, and Afghans. Some Eritreans take this route, and while the number of Yemeni fleeing their civil war has been relatively low, this number is likely to increase unless or until this conflict is ended.

Swarm is not and was not an appropriate word, as it was used with intent and pre-meditation to take away people's humanity and individuality. I see no particular reason to be upset by that, he wasn't calling them "cockroaches", but neither is it something to be applauded or emulated. Politicians live and die by the word, and this was no off-the-cuff remark. Words might matter, but action, or inaction, matters more.

Britain, and yes Cameron, has a particular responsibility, as they were the primary force to  torpedo the EU Mediterranean "Mare Nostrum" rescue fleet.  Their theory was that rescuing people from drowning would encourage them to take the journey, and Our Sea has overflowed with deeply discouraged dead. Dead people in their hundreds could be laid at the doorsteps of Downing Street 10, but that might be considered an encouragement.

The UK government can feel encouraged that less Syrians take the Libyan route now, but then it was often quite involuntary to begin with. Syrians and other Asians take more natural Asian routes these days, leaving it for the Africans to take their chances in Libya.


I don't agree with your assertion that swarm is not apt, nor with the assumption that it was an intended belittling of the refugees by Cameron, such is the language of political bias. We can readily see that many of the refugees act as groups, following the current flow and favoured destinations and generated by some crisis. Any collective name is by definition collective, why even the term "refugees" puts such people into a box and is in no way used prejoratively. Indeed, there is, I see, a mathematics associated with the behaviour of swarms which might help in anticipating such things in the future. But at the time I think it was just a turn of phrase, not some Machiavellian insult.

It was an EU decision to curtail the Mare Nostrum effort, a decision which I agree was supported by Cameron, then recognised as a mistake and its successor operation supported by the UK.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #59 –
Quote from: Barulheira on

At a first glance, I see too many questions:
Quote from: string on

To continue: Such migrations will again raise the questions we have today; tough questions such as
--- Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?
--- Are they fleeing persecution or danger And so what?
--- Are they economic migrants And so what?
--- Should they all be resettled or sent back and by what criteria Why not let them choose for themselves? Are they cattle? Are they criminals?
--- Which country should take them in, their arrival point (current international law) or shared Idem
--- shared by whom, locally, or across a continent, across similar cultures or across the whole world
--- Who should pay
--- Who is going to answer these questions, each country by itself or by international agreement
(...)
Because it will happen again and again an again



Sorry to confuse you, but I see the EU is making a start on some.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #60 –
Language is always intentional when somebody using it for a living make prepared statements. It was by no means any anti-immigrant rant, you'd have to look elsewhere for that, but the intent was to depict migrants as a problem, tinged with threat of invasion. Some British media may have made too much out of it, doesn't mean it was untrue.

Other wordings I'm fine with. All refugees are migrants, not all migrants are refugees, including the European ones. EU decisions are made by some alliance/coalition of governments, with at least one of the big three, UK, France and Germany. They should be geared towards a reduction of death in transit, not the other way around.

Speaking of which, the EU has found the key for relocking refugees.
Quote
How has the distribution key for relocation been calculated?
The proposed distribution key is based on:
a) the size of the population (40% weighting),
b) the total GDP (40% weighting),
c) a corrective factor based on the average number of asylum applications per 1 million inhabitants over the previous five years (10% weighting with a 30% cap of the population and GDP effect on the key to avoid disproportionate impact)
d) a corrective factor based on the unemployment rate (10% weighting with a 30% cap of the population and GDP effect on the key to avoid disproportionate effect).
The corrective factors for the average numbers of asylum applications and unemployment rate are applied inversely, meaning that high existing asylum application numbers and a high unemployment rate would result in fewer individuals being relocated to a Member State.


Quote
Which nationals are most likely to benefit from the relocation scheme?
The relocation mechanism will only apply to those nationals who have an average EU-wide asylum recognition rate equal to or higher than 75%, on the basis of EUROSTAT data for the previous quarter. For 2014, two nationalities had a recognition rate above 75%: Syrians and Eritreans. According to the data for quarter 2 of 2015, the 75% threshold is now passed by Syrians, Eritreans and Iraqis. The nationalities falling within the threshold will be updated quarterly on the basis of EUROSTAT figures.
Why did the Commission choose the 75% recognition rate?
The 75% recognition rate threshold has two objectives: to ensure that all applicants who are in clear and urgent need of protection can enjoy their right of protection as soon as possible; and to prevent applicants who are unlikely to qualify for asylum from being relocated and unduly prolonging their stay in the EU.


This makes a lot of sense. From some countries, the three mentioned (Syria, Iraq, Eritrea), almost all refugees get asylum. From other countries, e.g. non-members from Former Yugoslavia and Albania, practically nobody does. The Balkan group comprises half the applicants to Germany and a high number of applicants in other countries.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #62 –
Quote from: Barulheira on

At a first glance, I see too many questions

Some of them deserve the predicate: "perverse"
Even the predicate "perverse" seems too pale for one of them: "Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?"

After fu**ing up entire regions for 'convenient' regime changes, put the blame on the culture of those you've fu**ed up.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #63 –
Quote from: krake on

Quote from: Barulheira on

At a first glance, I see too many questions

Some of them deserve the predicate: "perverse"
Even the predicate "perverse" seems too pale for one of them: "Are the migrants simply escaping the consequences of their own culture And so what?"

After fu**ing up entire regions for 'convenient' regime changes, put the blame on the culture of those you've fu**ed up.
Understanding is not always possible, krake, by ignoring difficult questions.
The Taliban culture was a good example, I think, of a culture making life intolerable for its people and what about these people?. Each migration is different and has lessons to be learned. It's not all America's  fault!

Understanding the reasons for mass migration is part of the task at hand which, as I wrote, is bigger than the current crisis.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #64 –
Shifting blame to the US is very convenient, isn't it.

There is something to be said for "you break it, you buy it". Arguably the US broke Iraq, but they didn't break Somalia, they didn't break then-Yugoslavia (neither did Germany), nor Afghanistan for all Brzezinski's crowing, though they still have special responsibility, like Europe has for Libya, and Russia for Ukraine. Eritrea, the dictatorship that is now exporting so many of its own people, was the darling of the European radicals and the communists.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #65 –
Quote from: string on

Understanding the reasons for mass migration is part of the task at hand which, as I wrote, is bigger than the current crisis.

Irrelevant. Unless somebody's going to fix them.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #68 –
It's more interesting bottom-up.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #69 –
Not completely right there jax on the former Yugoslavia and America not supporting the breakaways. Anyway on the main theme I don't what us here to be taking any more people in. Two governments ago that mouth, Blair had 2 million dumped in this island and today politicians are squealing about financial issues but when it suits try to skip round immigrants. At last the other night on the BBC news mention was made of the strain on schools, housing, welfare, and constant arrivals making these matters damn worse in actual practice.

Thank goodness we were not part of that EC shambles agreement on immigrants, etc and the way that loopy organisation runs Europe is a joke. Ages ago we coped with the French Huguenots and the Irish but the island had a smaller populationand many of those flooding in here are going to be welfare cases.  And isn't it interesting that all those floods of people on boats have life jackets?? In one tv news item a week or two ago many were bought in Turkey so profit is being made by some dastardly people. I Miss Enoch Powell.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #70 –
Irrelevance, irrelevance, irrelevance. The only thing that matters is if we want to be an Europe that saves people or an Europe that abandons people.
The bottom line is that we have to do it for us in the first place, for our human and moral imperative. A better world begins with each of us caring about the other, not to leave him alone to disgrace and misfortune.

Indifference kills much more cats than curiosity.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #71 –
There's been a suggestion that borderguards from the countries where the migrants are aiming at should be working/cooperating at Schengen external checkpoints. What do you think of this, Belfrager? Would you like Germans to patrol the coasts of Portugal?

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #73 –
Quote from: ersi on

There's been a suggestion that borderguards from the countries where the migrants are aiming at should be working/cooperating at Schengen external checkpoints. What do you think of this, Belfrager? Would you like Germans to patrol the coasts of Portugal?

Working/cooperation it's different from intromission and sovereignty reduction.  I suppose that Schengen agreeements already establishes the conditions/requirements for cooperation between countries, what's needed and how it should be done.

Greece and Italy don't need German intromisson, they need all other members financial support for better performing a common cause.

All this problematic it's showing clearly the farse the UE has turned into under German "leadership". There's absolutely no common strategies, efforts or anything else but always the reinforcement of German (and it's facade alligned countries) authority and command.

Jaques Delors and others dream about an "Europe of Nations", one Country one vote, has finished. Every crisis turns it evident.

If we accept an "European Army" who's going to command it? Who's interests it will serve?
A matter of attitude.

Re: Europe's Migrant Crisis

Reply #74 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Irrelevance, irrelevance, irrelevance. The only thing that matters is if we want to be an Europe that saves people or an Europe that abandons people.
The bottom line is that we have to do it for us in the first place, for our human and moral imperative. A better world begins with each of us caring about the other, not to leave him alone to disgrace and misfortune.

Indifference kills much more cats than curiosity.


It's more complicated than re-settling anyone who gets off a boat, it is also about the wider issues some of which I mentioned above, including for example providing support of one kind or another to enable countries to provide a stable and attractive place for their people to live.

Take a look at this - Aid to developing countries rebounds in 2013 to reach an all-time high which shows the bigger picture of such support world-wide in terms of total amount and as a % of GDP.

You can see which countries are really trying to help and which are not.