The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Topic: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga (Read 347532 times)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1075 – 2016-05-25, 03:45:49

Quote from: ersi on 2016-05-25, 03:11:01

The president of the United States has to be a moral wreck. It's a requirement. You don't get to be the President otherwise.

Of course Trump has better chances than Hillary, because he is far worse.

The battle to defeat Trump is nothing short of a war for America's soul. Sadly, who the Democrats have chosen as the general doesn't have much of one, either. I least, I can say she doesn't have fascists from places such as Stormfront backing her and Ku Klux Klan leaders endorsing her.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1076 – 2016-05-25, 04:16:34

Now for a modest proposal. maybe we should end the United States of America if Trump wins. Culturally it's several different countries as it is. The stereotypes Belfrager and Howie offer are not America as a whole, but generally the South. So the first division would be to reconstitute the CSA (Confederate States of America) at least for the Deep South. We'll let Trump be president there and he can preside over the CSA's descent into a third world proto-theocracy without the support of the current Democratic states. Atlanta will be the capital. The major industries will be assembling products designed elsewhere on the cheap with most of those workers making ~9 bucks a hour and their best Republican minds won't be able to figure out why the consumer economy collapsed with people making those wages.

The west coast states can be a nation called Pacifica or something. San Fransisco is the capital. The big industry will be tech. Nevada can be problematic since we're our own unique libertarian culture, so there will need to be a debate over an independent Nevada or our join Pacifica.

New England as region consists of Connecticut northward. But I'd say the independent New England can have Maryland northward. New York is the capital. Major industries will be finance and healthcare.

Then we have an agricultural midwest, with Chicago as the capital.

The Jews have their own country, so why can't the Mormons have one? Of course, I mean Utah. Salt Lake City is the capital, of course. I guess the major industry is sending young men out to convert others to Mormonism so the church can collect more tithes.

We'll have a transition period when people can freely move to the new country they feel most comfortable in. For instance, if you happen to be an inbred jackass you can move to the CSA.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1077 – 2016-05-25, 05:30:33

Apparently, Abe Lincoln taught you nothing, Sang…

Conservatives suffered through some rough years; Nixon, Carter, GHW Bush, Clinton (…but Newt Gingrich helped a lot, then!!), GW Bush, Obama… I'm pretty sure you'all can take a term or two of Trump! Suck it up, boy-o.

Or write a book of alt-history! (Turtledove is my favorite in the genre…)
In the mean time, every prediction that Trump will "say something so stupid that it kills his campaign" has left the predictors with egg on their face. Your reason for believing that now is different is mere wish-fulfillment; but you're good at that! You've lived in a fantasy world for a long time…

I do appreciate how those who tout democracy immediately reject it, when they don't get their way! Isn't populism merely another term for democracy?

Let the Hilde-beast and the Trumpenator get it on! Such fun! (The more squeamish "democrats" can attempt to sneak over the border to Canada; the more well-heeled can go south…

) But you've wanted this kind of showdown for a long time, Sang — haven't you?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1078 – 2016-05-25, 07:01:19

Clinton was rough years? Why was that? All the economic growth? Turning a budget deficit in a surplus, reducing the debt as percent of GDP? I'll bet you guys cried your little eyes every night, huh? Poor little things, having America going in the right direction. But your tears ended with the advent of GW Bush and his pointless wars and banking deregulation crashed the economy, making you happy.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-25, 05:30:33

In the mean time, every prediction that Trump will "say something so stupid that it kills his campaign" has left the predictors with egg on their face.

Hasn't it already? Winning the GOP primary is one thing, the general election is completely different. This is just a quick reference, but here's what Gallop tells us I still think Gallop has a conservative sampling bias.
[img=http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/8zooeab2ckq4vuoag1c0kq.png]http://[/img]
Is Trump continuing to lose ground among women, even among a polling group the seems to have samples a little to heavy on the conservative side?

This article by Gallop doesn't have neat graph like that, but they do have bullet points for easy reference. This last one is no longer relevant, so I'll omit that.

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* Trump has 12% favorable, 77% unfavorable image among Hispanics

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* Trump has become better known, but more disliked since summer

By pandering too heavily to his base, he might have already cost himself the general election with his mouth. Again, there's good chance that he got a temporary boost from being the GOP nominee. Those polls also aren't telling us if anything changed in the projected electoral college. Where did his numbers rise the most? Was it in states that would have voted for him anyway? Do we know this yet? As you well know, a close popular election can still be an electoral college landslide and Bush won an election there despite losing the popular vote.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1079 – 2016-05-25, 07:24:53

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-25, 05:30:33

Apparently, Abe Lincoln taught you nothing, Sang...

Sure he did. But so did Jonathan Swift

As quick historical footnote, at first it was unclear if Abe could legally prevent the south from seceding. The mistake was Confederates firing on Fort Sumter, which provided a legal grounds for declaring war.

Like alt-history books do you? Check this out. A Trump-like figure gets elected so the blue states secede. The Trump sends troops. The blue states most likely lose in the face of the Federal army, unless their tactics are brilliant. Brother against brother, families torn apart, of course. The blues regroup and start a counter-attack.

What does NATO do? An attack on one means an attack on all. What an epic story idea with international intrigue, battle field action, personal tragedy, etc.

We might even have cyber-warfare. A disproportionate amount of America's technological prowess is the blue states, so re-named Apple, Microsoft, Google, etc are enlisted in the fight. Maybe they can crash the Fed's computers, stopping the bombers and whatnot. But, oh no, the single most skilled blue hacker has family in a Federal state

Worse, he disrupted the missile guidance computers (or something) and caused a disaster in his family's town and thus inadvertent killed them all.

Oh no! It turns out the election was rigged in the first place and a corrupt "Microsoft" employee hacked the voting machines, so it was all his fault and all this death and destruction was for nothing

Okay, I see I have about 1000 pages go write......

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1080 – 2016-05-25, 07:26:50

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-24, 23:01:19

Clinton was rough years? Why was that? All the economic growth? Turning a budget deficit in a surplus, reducing the debt as percent of GDP? I'll bet you guys cried your little eyes every night, huh? Poor little things, having America going in the right direction.

After Newt engineered the resurgence of the Republicans in the House, indeed, things got much better!

Clinton, being a savvy politician, went along for the ride… Good times, eh?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1081 – 2016-05-25, 07:31:33

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-24, 23:24:53

Okay, I see I have about 1000 pages go write......

I've seen this sort of thing before: You have 1000 words; if you print them one to a page…

Or did you mean I should write it?

(Actually, your outline was only 188 words… Thankfully, you're not as prolix as you think you are!

)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1082 – 2016-05-25, 09:18:52

Oh, that doesn't count as an outline. For instance, I'd need to come up with some scene that show accidentally familicidal hacker's relationship with his family so the reader can feel his pain with him, etc. Maybe his dad likes "Trump" but he think the candidate is a Nazi but family conquers all and that gay shit, until the "accident." Or the family fight leads to everybody be estranged (too obvious foreshadowing, maybe? :/ ) And why was he in the red state in the first place (and which one, because it has to be important to the story?) Just it being somebody's birthday or christmas isn't enough because then you can just call and send presents and that would be cliche' anyway.

How do these subplots relate to each other and eventually converge? So the outline itself would easily be 1000 words and I only make them very sketchy. But, no I don't think I'm prolix. In fact, I get fussed at by epic fantasy fans/writers for not doing enough world building even though I tell them it's urban fantasy and don't need that kind of detail unless it actually moves the story forward or tells something relevant to the plot about the character.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1083 – 2016-05-25, 10:08:13

International politics under Trump must be funny. I suppose that half of the world leaders will even refuse to shakehands with him. Grotesque.
Basically, Kim Jong-un's blonde American version.

A suggestion, teach the man how to play harp, as for the rest he's a natural born Nero.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1084 – 2016-05-25, 10:31:44

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-25, 10:08:13

A suggestion, teach the man how to play harp, as for the rest he's a natural born Nero.

I only disagree slightly. Instead of "Nero fiddled while Rome burned" , in the future people will say "Trump boasted while American burned." Nice analogy, but the demagogue doesn't need any instruments.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1085 – 2016-05-25, 10:44:30

And, yet, Sang, you don't write it… Typical liberal excuses.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1086 – 2016-05-25, 11:02:49

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-05-25, 01:18:52

I tell them it's urban fantasy and don't need that kind of detail unless it actually moves the story forward or tells something relevant to the plot about the character.

Of course you do!
Talking about writing is so much more fun than -you know- like, writing.

But I'm game: Perhaps we can collaborate on this one?

(I'll try to stay sober enough to see that my spell-checker is doing a reasonably good job…)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1087 – 2016-05-25, 11:25:04

[obvious]
When the debate isn't about who's better but about who's not worse, there's no hope.
[/obvious]
(This does not apply to America only.)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1088 – 2016-05-25, 12:51:57

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-25, 11:02:49

But I'm game: Perhaps we can collaborate on this one?

We'll see. I'm not brushing you off. My friend just sent me back a book that I wrote with suggestions/corrections, so I have a lot of work to do on that. My typing remains atrocious, so he had some typo suggestions but some real plot points. That's an interesting proposition, though. Maybe one night I'll crank out a real outline and send it to you.

Right now, I'm the one that's not exactly sober. I had to do to the dentist yesterday morning and needed to dull the pain, at least that's the excuse. And we're looking a month of going back every week. So that's gonna suck. If I was more sober, I wouldn't haven't have spent so time on the forums last night.

Every since the best interface for writing thread, I've been thinking we need a thread about writing. For one, it's getting old arguing about the same things. You and I aren't gonna change either other's minds. It might be a forlorn hope, but maybe it will bring some fresh blood into this place

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1089 – 2016-05-25, 18:05:53

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-25, 10:08:13

International politics under Trump must be funny. I suppose that half of the world leaders will even refuse to shakehands with him.

I assume you are exaggerating. Aren't you?

How many leaders of the world do you think would dare not to shake hands with the President of the USA?

BTW, do you think that Trump would manage to surpass Obama, the Nobel Peace Prize winner?

Quote

President Obama came into office seven years ago pledging to end the wars of his predecessor, George W. Bush. On May 6, with eight months left before he vacates the White House, Mr. Obama passed a somber, little-noticed milestone: He has now been at war longer than Mr. Bush, or any other American president.
source

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1090 – 2016-05-25, 19:05:35

Quote from: krake on 2016-05-25, 18:05:53

I assume you are exaggerating. Aren't you?
How many leaders of the world do you think would dare not to shake hands with the President of the USA?

Okay, wait to to see their faces while shaking hands...

Quote from: krake on 2016-05-25, 18:05:53

BTW, do you think that Trump would manage to surpass Obama, the Nobel Peace Prize winner?

I think Trump if elected will not last too long.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1091 – 2016-05-26, 01:07:56

And now it is being confirmed that what Clinton did with the email situation was not correct but her side is using the handy explanation that everyone did that. However what if the FBI involvement leads to impeaching, eh?

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1092 – 2016-05-26, 12:58:54

Sincerely, I can't comprehend how the elections at the main potency in the world are so low level be it programatically, politically, economically, strategically, whathever-lly.
Three hundred fifty million citizens are going to vote based at bit sounds and clowneries.

The political level of discussion all over the world has decayed into ridiculous levels but this is too much. That's the kind of situation that precedes totalitarian regimes, it's a sociological "perfect storm".

In face of this, Right Wing sectors (as understood in Europe) should be already urging the Army to intervene, declare martial law, the suspension of civil rights and nominate a national salvation government for the next three years.
Instead, what do they do? they vote for Trump, being accumplices of their country's destruction.

If a butterfly in China can create a tempest in Europe, imagine what a Trump in America can do.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1093 – 2016-05-26, 13:23:01

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-26, 12:58:54

Sincerely, I can't comprehend how the elections at the main potency in the world are so low level be it programatically, politically, economically, strategically, whathever-lly.
Three hundred fifty million citizens are going to vote based at bit sounds and clowneries.

Another thing hard to comprehend is that it's not the citizens who are voting for the President. The President is chosen by what the U.S. constitution calls "Electors". Even Americans themselves are often deluded on this point and they think the people are electing the President.

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-26, 12:58:54

The political level of discussion all over the world has decayed into ridiculous levels but this is too much. That's the kind of situation that precedes totalitarian regimes, it's a sociological "perfect storm".

The funny feature with the U.S. presidential elections is that the campaigning goes on for two or so years, whereas in the rest of the world it's maximum half a year. This is particularly funny considering that the people actually have no vote in the matter, according to the constitution, but the people are kept under mass delusion.

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-26, 12:58:54

If a butterfly in China can create a tempest in Europe, imagine what a Trump in America can do.

Yes. That's funny too.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1094 – 2016-05-26, 19:16:30

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-05-26, 12:58:54

In face of this, Right Wing sectors (as understood in Europe) should be already urging the Army to intervene, declare martial law, the suspension of civil rights and nominate a national salvation government for the next three years.

A military junta suspending all civil rights, that's for sure the way to go for a better future.
What you missed to add is all the above flanked by some religious and nationalistic fanatism.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1095 – 2016-05-27, 01:43:27

A thing about Obama. Why the devil he got the Peace Prize prior to his position is beyond me. Anyway as for delusion that has unfortunately been a long standing indoctrination for a long time. Many people are becoming to realise that one but not enough as of yet. Preparations take far too damn long and the whole thing is so cleverly controlled but not by the people for the people in any meaningful way. Obama has been a mess and did little to reduce the country's interference on other countries and was worse than GW Bush who would be easy to castigate. The Constitution is frequently a conflict area and also much misused when it suits those who pull the strings. Neither of the 2 candidates is a credit to the nation at all as both are in the big money camp and although I generally like women (as many have known in my life!) an arrogant woman in a high office can become a bossy boots and she has all the credentials for that.

Hey a military dictatorship would be passable (police half way there already

) but get rid of the floppy discs being used for rockets and more modern techy stuff first!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1096 – 2016-05-27, 05:20:58

Quote from: rjhowie on 2016-05-26, 17:43:27

A thing about Obama. Why the devil he got the Peace Prize prior to his position is beyond me.

That's what Europeans do, Howie. They drift into deep and deeper fantasy…

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1097 – 2016-05-27, 05:41:28

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-27, 05:20:58

That's what Europeans do, Howie. They drift into deep and deeper fantasy…

Nobel prize to Obama was a cause of astonishment over here. And the committee itself is now ashamed of the decision.

Quote from: Nobel panel saw Obama peace prize as ‘mistake,’ new book claims, http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/sep/16/nobel-panel-saw-obama-peace-prize-mistake-new-book/

“[We] thought it would strengthen Obama and it didn’t have this effect,” he told the Associated Press in an interview.

...

Normally the Nobel committee’s decision regarding recipients remains private, and Mr. Lundestad’s frank and revealing remarks regarding internal decisions have caused a stir in Norway, detailing the politicking and compromises that have gone into determining the annual laureate.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1098 – 2016-05-27, 05:48:07

Quote from: ersi on 2016-05-26, 21:41:28

Nobel prize to Obama was a cause of astonishment over here. And the committee itself is now ashamed of the decision.

Always behind the curve…

The "Peace Prize" is an indication of European political trajectory. And, of course, fantasy!

Perhaps your country should remain in NATO…

Myself, I think NATO is an anachronism. I'm sure you have no fear of ~~Soviet~~ Russian hegemony!

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1099 – 2016-05-27, 10:03:18

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-05-27, 05:48:07

The "Peace Prize" is an indication of European political trajectory.

Quote

the Nobel Peace Prize is awarded not by a Swedish organisation but by the Norwegian Nobel Committee.

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Its five members are appointed by the Norwegian Parliament and today roughly represent the political makeup of that body.

By the way, Norway is not part of the European Union.