What's Going on in the Americas?

Topic: What's Going on in the Americas? (Read 261731 times)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #300 – 2015-04-01, 20:31:27

Don't worry, Krake. I have doubts that even the most drunken denizens of the Pentagon and the alphabet soup of spy-guy agencies think that any good could come from an unprovoked attack on Iran-- or anybody else for that matter. If the US did that, it wouldn't be just you and RJH saying bad things about the US. No way to win the bad-press war an unprovoked attack would cause.

About the US arming Islamic State-- in the current state of affairs, what on Earth have you been smoking? Even His Royal Highness, Emperor Obama doesn't think that is something we'd want to do.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #301 – 2015-04-01, 21:47:58

Could the date be relevant?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #302 – 2015-04-02, 03:57:25

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-04-01, 20:31:27

Don't worry, Krake. I have doubts that even the most drunken denizens of the Pentagon and the alphabet soup of spy-guy agencies think that any good could come from an unprovoked attack on Iran-- or anybody else for that matter. If the US did that, it wouldn't be just you and RJH saying bad things about the US. No way to win the bad-press war an unprovoked attack would cause.

Why did this not stop unprovoked wars before, say, on Iraq?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #303 – 2015-04-02, 06:37:33

Leaving the US bashing aside for a second, there is a cautionary tale embedded in that question. Before the run-up to the invasion, and then several years after, US and European popular opinions on the sensibility of an/the invasion broadly coincided. That was before the propaganda started/after it petered out.

Saddam Hussein was subtly and not so subtly conflated with the attacks on September 11, which even with the information available at the time was nonsense. Critical voices, like France's, were attributed to their traditional martial cowardice (which, in the case of France, was ironic; it is as bellicose a nation as Europe can muster). These were the days of Freedom Fries. The propaganda worked. In the manner of months the American nation was on the war path.

All those checks and balances, all those trappings of civilised society, were proven useless. The American public was being had, and so easily. The opposition (at that time the Democrats) was busy getting re-elected and not to support a losing cause, whatever the merits. The ostensibly critical press quiet, no benefit in asking awkward questions.

It happened in the US of A, but could happen in any democratic country with surplus war machinery. Had the US had real worries about a Canadian-Mexican invasion the Iraq war would never happened. Similarly, Europeans has spent the last 3000 years fighting each other. Now that that spat is over, limited global reach is what stops "peaceful" Europeans from doing the same. Democracy would be no deterrent here either.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #304 – 2015-04-02, 08:57:38

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-01, 22:37:33

Critical voices, like France's, were attributed to their traditional martial cowardice (which, in the case of France, was ironic; it is as bellicose a nation as Europe can muster). These were the days of Freedom Fries.

I'd like to agree with you — a bit: "Freedom Fries" was, indeed, silly.
But two things stick:
Compared to Germany -at least, recently! -(You know: like the last hundred some-odd years?)- France can hardly be called or accused of being bellicose. (One needs to go back further… [We'll forgive Algeria, eh?

]) What you maybe mean is:
Your country wasn't involved?

What you call "propaganda" is intel that you don't understand… That's understandable: Sadam's Iraq -given the short tussle after his invasion of Kuwait- led to our "invasion"… Others agreed, that was justified.
What you must mean is that you'd prefer thugs and bullies be — un-molested!
That's all well and good, for someone who flits across borders, and ideologies… And seems to have no allegiances.

Sometimes, jax, I have no idea where you're coming from…

The second thing is simple: You prefer a state-ist solution to real problems, even though you must know that such will fail miserably… (Recall your thread about charity and government largesse.) If -perhaps- you don't know why, watch China for a few decades more.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #305 – 2015-04-02, 09:15:46

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-02, 06:37:33

Leaving the US bashing aside for a second, there is a cautionary tale embedded in that question. Before the run-up to the invasion, and then several years after, US and European popular opinions on the sensibility of an/the invasion broadly coincided....

Saddam Hussein was subtly and not so subtly conflated with the attacks on September 11, .... The propaganda worked.

What? You genuinely believe that? Whatever sympathy the United States had for September 11 attacks, it managed to squander all of it already by the start of Afghanistan war. People in Europe were near-unanimously against the Iraq war. The governments who participated in the Iraq "effort" did not ask the people.

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-02, 06:37:33

It happened in the US of A, but could happen in any democratic country with surplus war machinery. Had the US had real worries about a Canadian-Mexican invasion the Iraq war would never happened. Similarly, Europeans has spent the last 3000 years fighting each other. Now that that spat is over, limited global reach is what stops "peaceful" Europeans from doing the same. Democracy would be no deterrent here either.

No government anywhere asked the people. This means it was not democracy. It was democracy only perhaps in some very twisted sense.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #306 – 2015-04-02, 11:28:13

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2015-04-02, 08:57:38

What you call "propaganda" is intel that you don't understand… That's understandable: Sadam's Iraq -given the short tussle after his invasion of Kuwait- led to our "invasion"… Others agreed, that was justified.
What you must mean is that you'd prefer thugs and bullies be — un-molested!
That's all well and good, for someone who flits across borders, and ideologies… And seems to have no allegiances.

Quote from: ersi on 2015-04-02, 09:15:46

What? You genuinely believe that? Whatever sympathy the United States had for September 11 attacks, it managed to squander all of it already by the start of Afghanistan war. People in Europe were near-unanimously against the Iraq war. The governments who participated in the Iraq "effort" did not ask the people.

The European and US opinion on Iraq broadly matched up until shortly before the invasion — they were against it — and broadly agreed years afterwards — it was not such a good idea. Just a few month of government propaganda changed the US opinion numbers dramatically in a crucial period. Saddam Hussein was a ruthless tyrant posing a threat to his own government, people, and neighbour. Assessing that threat, assessing any threat, was challenging. If that threat was large enough, and urgent enough, an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence. Uniquely in the US Iraq were regularly linked with 9/11 in the media, clearly nonsense even at that time, but it was nonsense "intel" that worked very well for its intended purpose and audience. Ironically after the invasion the country grew ripe for Al Qaeda-affiliated brands like Al Nusra and ISIL.

There is little in the invasion and occupation that hasn't been done to death. From a utilitarian point of view removing Saddam Hussein from power had value. I could imagine a scenario where Iraq handled better could have net benefits, where the invasion would be relatively successful.

The Iraq War and its consequences is not what I am interested in here, but that democracy is no deterrent to war. It is highly unlikely that politicians would or should "ask the people", but it would be a nice hope that the checks present in a democracy would prevent meaningless adventures, given that the would-be military adventurer and his supporters would want re-election. Of course, relative to the whims of an absolute ruler getting political support for a war is more complicated, but if you follow the right formula you should succeed in your venture.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #307 – 2015-04-02, 20:57:45

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-02, 11:28:13

an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence.

If that was to be true, everyone would invade the EUA.
And I suspect that would be not a too much difficult thing to do. For some reason they move desperately in substituting their men by machines.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #308 – 2015-04-03, 01:43:51

So right that being democratic doesn't not stop wars. At the same time with the way Europe is invading that would be easy the mess it is in.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #309 – 2015-04-03, 06:54:04

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-02, 11:28:13

an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence.

Could it? If the invaded country is thousands miles away from your borders?
Nice spin even though it's a rotten one.

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-02, 11:28:13

Ironically after the invasion the country grew ripe for Al Qaeda-affiliated brands like Al Nusra and ISIL.

That was a logic consequence and the destabilization of the entire region was predicted by many. It's what happens if you create a power vacuum on purpose to push for regime changes according to your geo-strategic interests.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #310 – 2015-04-03, 08:27:01

Quote from: krake on 2015-04-03, 06:54:04

Quote from: jax on 2015-04-02, 11:28:13
an invasion could be considered some form of preventive self-defence.

Could it? If the invaded country is thousands miles away from your borders?
Nice spin even though it's a rotten one.

Nice quote mine.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #311 – 2015-04-03, 15:18:05

Twenty-year sentence handed to Purvi Patel for death of foetus condemned by women’s groups

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #312 – 2015-04-04, 00:45:19

I wouldn't want to be thought I was America bashing but it is the most regular country to sanction, destabilise or invade more than anyone else. Time after time a president and the usual formal answers is it is for "defence" or that other long overused word, "Security."

If a country is a dictatorship then that is their business and problem and before someone tells me that is not moral there is a glaring answer...Saudi Arabia. Seems the West and it's leader picks and chooses which dictatorship to be hand in hand with and more glaringly immoral!

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #313 – 2015-04-04, 01:57:53

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-03, 16:45:19

I wouldn't want to be thought I was America bashing but it is the most regular country to sanction, de-stabilise or invade more than anyone else.

RJ, I've smoked for 50 years! Hence the underlined above almost killed me with the laughter it evoked.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-03, 16:45:19

Seems the West and it's leader picks and chooses which dictatorship to be hand in hand with and more glaringly immoral!

You -ah- do realize how Saudi Arabia was formed…?

(Nah! Too complicated. Turn on the telly!)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #314 – 2015-04-05, 01:23:30

You have been reading a dancing book again dear American wanderer. Your country and it's leadership treat Saudi Arabia as a great place and we should all follow that lead even though the country is a hell hole of no rights, freedoms, etc. A man is being flogged 1,000 times and the Saudis have told the Germans and your neighbours, Canda to mind their own business. Now would you have a bse in Saudi??

Interesting that the West's great leader goes on about rights, freedoms and such but then decides which abominable dictatorship we should all shake hands with.Now here is a more localised thing on the "Americas."

A man is released from jail after decades in the ex-colonies as the original evidence has been found to be wanting after so long. But what makes it worse is the man (black of course) has been on Death Row for 30 damn years!! How in whoever's name can a country claiming so many high ended "principles" have a man under the death threat for 3 decades?? Others have been 10 but this is even more diabolical. It shows that not only the political system is now deeply flawed but the legal one is a nutjob paradise. Sick and disgusting for a man tortured by that for so long.

Yet another two wide flaws in the principled claims of the world's greatest democracy (yeah!).

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #315 – 2015-04-05, 04:10:59

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-04, 17:23:30

Yet another two wide flaws in the principled claims of the world's greatest democracy […]

"World's greatest democracy" is your sneering term for the country whose wealth and influence eclipsed yours. That's understandable. But it wasn't so much our ascendency but your "descendency" — the result of the choices you made as a colonial power.

But cheer up! It could, in that case, be worse: Think of Portugal and the Netherlands! (Or -need I remind you- Rome!

)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #316 – 2015-04-06, 02:21:27

Oh I dare say there is a degree of sneering Oakdale but for very wide and obvious reasons. However being a place that constantly bleats about democracy, rights, principles, fairness and democracy the same things are under default in the homeland. Government and big business is intertwined even in government agencies that are meant to ensure propriety in industry, commerce, farming, etc. You need toi be rich to be a Congressman or Senator.Outside of that remit and forget it. Hundreds of bases around the world for "our security" (US but means to safeguard corporate money. Time after time countries said to be terrible dictatorships have been surrounded, de-stabiiised, invaded. Usually a mess afterwards Phones, computers, credit cards, personal communication all spied on for "security." Jails bulging with millions, people on death row for years, rights trampled on millions of poor and so on. More spy agencies all competing costing horrific amounts as well as a military bill that is half what the global total is!

What I have said before about Eisenhower is correct too and he was in the Republican camp! Trouble is that he was proved right. The routine small people haven't a chance in hell over in the land of the hand across the heart. Big company, big farming conglomerate, etc then fine. Small company, small farm and so on the constitution principles have been usurped. As a country you have gradually lost your birthright i am afraid so all the fanatical flag waving nationalism, greedy people are all that counts today. Just think if you reduced the military greatly how you could deal properly with the tens of millions of US poor. That in iself would be a massive help instead of creating tensions, supporting vile regimes and terror groups that sit a global corporate gree. Then Americans would have got their country back as it is no longer a reasonable free market capitalism it is now a greedy corporate top lot that control the place. Love of country has been stolen by those creeps and would be a proper place in the world rather than the one it has just now.

The only sad reflection is that it is becoming like a gradual Police State and playground for the money barons and they have stoled the attributes the country seemed to be developing and the future is going in the same disastrous way as recently. Wish it were not so.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #317 – 2015-04-06, 03:00:36

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-05, 18:21:27

Wish it were not so.

Perhaps you do… But your rant is very dear to you! I suppose you could get by with bashing Israel, though. I wonder: Is it television that breeds such bile? Or merely your weather?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #318 – 2015-04-07, 03:29:11

Oh you feel free to rabbit on with your wandering grey cells there. I have pointed out time after time how ridiculous America is. It claims all sorts of lofty ideals but doesn't actually practice them at home or the world. It niggles Yanks because the way they have been brought up wit the flag stuffed down their mental throats and all the claimed titles! You lot can call me what you like but when it comes to the basics of your own corner you are a soppy bunch and get miffed at others elsewhere not being taken in by hypocrisy with a capital H!

The answer is to actually live that Constitution but the system has been taken over by money and if you so-called thinking ex-colonists cannot see that then the problem is even worse. It does not matter one jot which of the two gigantic parties are in the White House as the ordinary people have been conned into a long time submission. Do away with armed conflict and giant military wanderings on the globe, reduce all those damn so-called security organisations, help the millions suffering over there, the trillions debt, help your own sufferers internally and what a difference it would make. Why can't you even grudgingly accept that Eisenhour was correct and at a stroke be honest for a change!

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #319 – 2015-04-07, 06:38:41

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-06, 19:29:11

Why can't you even grudgingly accept that Eisenhour was correct and at a stroke be honest for a change!

Ike said a lot in his farewell address, most of which I presume you've never heard or read…in its entirety!

His concerns about the "military/industrial complex" were well-placed; as were those about the government finance of, e.g., scientific research… But that's not what you mean, is it?

As I said elsewhere, your bile is akin to Dobbin's blinders: You only see straight ahead, and then none too well. What so spooked you?
Lend/Lease?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #320 – 2015-04-07, 19:16:33

Bile? You lot are so frightfully emotionally when charged with double standards. You looked that up about Eisenhower and thus allow yourself to avoid the hypocrisy charge! Nice try laddie but people outside the controlled country see things better than those befuddled by years of being brained! You DO need a new revolution.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #321 – 2015-04-07, 19:48:28

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-07, 12:16:33

Nice try laddie but people outside the controlled country see things better than those befuddled by years of being brained! You DO need a new revolution.

You jumping on the boat with Smileyfaze means we can at least call it a draw. Constitutional structure makes that unnecessary.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #322 – 2015-04-08, 03:44:32

And there's always the possibility of a constitutional convention…

The states can convene it, without congress's say-so!

(You'll note, Howie, that your country -whichever you think it is, the U.K. or Scotland- do not have a procedure in place to match that.)

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-07, 11:16:33

You looked that up about Eisenhower and thus allow yourself to avoid the hypocrisy charge!

I looked it up to spare you an unexpected and onerous use of your "little gray cells"…
The mere fact that you'd believe a (mostly failed) Canadian novelist (…that means he writes fiction, you know?

) rather than eminent historians throughout the Western world tells something — about you.
Go back to playing with your train simulations, sir! Fantasy and nostalgia are your milieu. Be comfortable there: Because you will, if you press your silly opinions, be humiliated…
(Well, you would be, had you the integrity or intelligence necessary.)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #323 – 2015-04-08, 09:13:31

Quote from: ensbb3 on 2015-04-07, 19:48:28

Quote from: rjhowie on 2015-04-07, 12:16:33
Nice try laddie but people outside the controlled country see things better than those befuddled by years of being brained! You DO need a new revolution.

You jumping on the boat with Smileyfaze means we can at least call it a draw. Constitutional structure makes that unnecessary.

Bite yer Tennessean tongue fella!! ...... that lowlifed, lily-livered, Putin lovin' black hearted Scot couldn't & wouldn't be worthy of licking the bilge on any boat I'd serve on!

I don't think Revolution is called for at all.....only a prescribed & valid last resort option against an out of control tyrannical government.

BHO might be ever so close, but he ain't no George William Frederick ........ yet.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #324 – 2015-04-08, 11:31:05

Local elections were held yesterday. I could claim to be a hipster since I voted for people you probably never heard of, but I won't make that claim.

In Chicago, Rahm Emmanuel holds on to the mayor's office for another term, beating out Chuy Garcia. So-- it's still the Rahmulan Empire for the next four years.