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Topic: What's Going on in the Americas? (Read 261709 times)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #550 –
Quote from: ersi on
Nobody gets off scot-free: "...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
Sure, the adulterer, that is any man having sex with a married/taken woman (not his own) and the adulteress, that is the married woman in question, will be delifed. But you have clearly not gone through the cases carefully:

Woman, having sex with a married woman: Scot-free
Man, having sex with a married man: Scot-free
Woman, not herself taken and having sex with a married man: Scot-free

Man, having sex with a woman not taken: Unkilled
 

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #551 –
Quote from: jax on
But you have clearly not gone through the cases carefully:

Woman, having sex with a married woman: Scot-free
Man, having sex with a married man: Scot-free
Woman, not herself taken and having sex with a married man: Scot-free
These cases got covered in my discussion with Frenzie a little while ago in this thread, starting roughly here.

Quote from: jax on

Man, having sex with a woman not taken: Unkilled
Unkilled, but not scot-free. There's a consistent recognition of sanctity of marriage in the Bible and there are regulations for all kinds of failure to uphold it, including your kinds. Compare this with modern Western legal lack of definition of marriage so that some people talk about it in very queer ways while keeping a straight face.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #552 –
Quote from: ersi on
There's a consistent recognition of sanctity of marriage in the Bible and there are regulations for all kinds of failure to uphold it, including your kinds.
Which means zero in a secular republic such as the United States. In fact, that reasoning would separation of church and state, insta-unconstitutional. I reiterate that marriage is not necessarily a religious ceremony at all.

Each religion is free to have it's own rules about who they can conduct the ceremony for, but rightfully doesn't have the authority to impose its rules on the entire nation because they find some offense. For instance, a fundamentalist church does have the right to refuse to marry two adulterers together on religious grounds, but not the right to prevent them from going to a different church or a judge to get married. Likewise if two men or women want to get married, except the Bible actually seems to care more about adultery then homosexuality. On a wide scale in the US, this exactly what the fundamentalist tried to do - impose their view of who's allowed to get married via amendments to the state constitutions and even made noise about adding it the Federal constitution, in a move of almost sublime idiocy. It's as if they said "We not only refuse to marry you together, we'll make sure no one else can either!" The sad part for them is that in having this attitude, the facilitated the very thing they sought to prevent far more than the "queer lobby" ever did or ever could hope to since same-sex marriage was already illegal.

Of course, when the fundies lost, they immediately tried to make themselves out to be the victims. The bully that finally finds himself hit back is the victim.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #553 –
Interesting. In this side of the Equator, it's the other way around. The "LGBT lobby" wants to dictate what the religious movements are allowed to preach and what they cannot refuse to bless (for whatever reasons, right or wrong). Gay partnership (or "marriage", whatever) is legal for a long time, but it doesn't seem enough for them. Nobody can hurt their feelings.
There seems to be a big difference between gay lobbies and between fundie lobbies in America and anywhere else.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #554 –
@Barulheira The same thing applies over here. The queer lobby wields the power that inquisition had in the middle ages. They don't quite burn people at the stake, but they depose priests and bishops, they remove professors and dictate what kids must learn in kindergarten.... The metaphoric crucifixion these days.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #555 –
Quote from: ersi on
Christians are supposed to be free of the law.
Just because Jesus forgives a wrongful behavior doesn't mean the behavior isn't still wrong. In other words, like Hell they are.

Quote from: ersi on
Modern society takes this to be a license to do and say whatever they please without any responsibility, i.e. they disregard NT along with the OT.
My society is and always has been deeply pagan. Don't be fooled by a silly bit of Christian veneer imposed by Charlemagne at the penalty of death. Remember, he showed he was serious by executing thousands who refused all in one fell swoop. (Nowadays we would call it genocide.) Why should we proud Germanic tribes care for some stupid Middle Eastern sacrificial cult? Of course we ignore it. To do otherwise would be to have no self-respect and to lose all sense of dignity.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #556 –
Quote from: ersi on
sanctity of marriage in the Bible
The sanctity of property rather. It shows a preoccupation with purity of essence, anything that dilutes the society, particularly any form of foreign culture, is harshly punished.

To take the Leviticus verse you were quoting: If you rape a taken woman that will be punished with death for you and death for the raped woman as well, unless she were in the countryside, and thus helpless.

If the raped woman is not also a taken woman, then that can be solved with a fine and you having to marry the raped girl.

If the woman in question is loot, then there is no punishment involved at all. She's your for the taking.

This isn't about sanctity of marriage, this is about the necessity of control. This is an aggressive culture with aggressive neighbours, this is kill or be killed, control or be controlled. You are right that love has nothing to do with it.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #557 –
Quote from: jax on
Quote from: ersi on
sanctity of marriage in the Bible
The sanctity of property rather.
Good point, Jax.

BTW, the Bible was written by humans. As we know humans have their own motives if they do something...
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.

As for sanctity - did anyone saw a Bible signed by God?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #558 –
Quote from: krake on
Quote from: jax on
Quote from: ersi on
sanctity of marriage in the Bible
The sanctity of property rather.
Good point, Jax.

BTW, the Bible was written by humans. As we know humans have their own motives if they do something...
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.

As for sanctity - did anyone saw a Bible signed by God?
Stupidity spreads as fire.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #559 –
Since the toilet use demographics of certain inland US states is what truly matters in the Americas, I moved to Eurafrica for a response.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #560 –
Quote from: Frenzie on
My society is and always has been deeply pagan.
Show me a pagan cult that shares the modern non-definition of marriage. I say pagans are much closer to the Bible's understanding of marriage, anytime anywhere, even in Hellenic Greek and Classical Rome.

The concept of so-called traditional marriage is not merely traditional, but universal. There's natural law behind the concept, not merely this or that book. Modern society's disrespect for marriage is unique in world history.

Quote from: jax on
The sanctity of property rather. It shows a preoccupation with purity of essence, anything that dilutes the society, particularly any form of foreign culture, is harshly punished.

To take the Leviticus verse you were quoting: If you rape a taken woman that will be punished with death for you and death for the raped woman as well, unless she were in the countryside, and thus helpless.

If the raped woman is not also a taken woman, then that can be solved with a fine and you having to marry the raped girl.

If the woman in question is loot, then there is no punishment involved at all. She's your for the taking.

This isn't about sanctity of marriage, this is about the necessity of control. This is an aggressive culture with aggressive neighbours, this is kill or be killed, control or be controlled. You are right that love has nothing to do with it.
Whereas continuity of society has everything to do with it. Marriage is not a private property. It's a social duty. It was expected that you show some responsibility when you take it on. That's why it's not everybody's right. You have to grow up and become man first (man in the meaningful sense, not as in non-sense). Just like to drive a car you have to pass some requirements.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #562 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on
Quote from: Belfrager on
Furthermore for example, the neanderthals had another world outlook than most people today.
Have you been reading Neanderthal literature?
I do it every other day by reading your posts, fascinating. :)
It remembers me that I should teach you how to quote me correctly... bah, it is not worth while.

As for Krake's quote about Neanderthals, indeed they had a completely different world outlook and yet evidence that they believed in the immortality of the soul (or life after death) it's present in their tombs by vestiges of flowers. They weren't atheists for sure.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #563 –
Quote from: ersi on
Show me a pagan cult that shares the modern non-definition of marriage.

While religions of the ancient world were 'cults' and the fact the same-sex couples being able to marry does not marriage does not have a definition, evidence from the ancient world seems to indict that there was indeed same-sex marriage. Perhaps it's the Abrahamic religions that are the anomaly.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #564 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
As for Krake's quote about Neanderthals, indeed they had a completely different world outlook and yet evidence that they believed in the immortality of the soul (or life after death) it's present in their tombs by vestiges of flowers. They weren't atheists for sure.
They weren't advanced enough to be atheists. :D

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #565 –
Quote from: midnight raccoon on
... evidence from the ancient world seems to indict that there was indeed same-sex marriage. Perhaps it's the Abrahamic religions that are the anomaly.
This is only evidence for that the researcher in question has no clue what marriage is. In fact, it's crucial for him to have no clue because otherwise he would be forced to a different conclusion.

Yes, there were prominent same-sex relationships in the ancient world, but not a single marriage.

And it's funny how queer lobbyists cannot get their story straight. Some say that Paul displays in the NT absolute ignorance of the modern "committed" and "loving" same-sex "partnerships" while others, like you, say that same-sex marriages have existed all along since Ancient Egypt and only Christianity deviates from this alleged norm.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #566 –
The concept of marriage was created by the Catholic Church around the twelve century as a religious ceremony. Before that different sex unions were called "natural" unions.
Society never recognized same sex unions, not even at the decadence of Rome.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #567 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
The concept of marriage was created by the Catholic Church around the twelve century as a religious ceremony.
I think you mean the Catholic Church created it as a church sacrament. Because surely everybody had a good idea of marriage as a concept before that.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #568 –
Quote from: ersi on
I think you mean the Catholic Church created it as a church sacrament.
I said as a religious ceremony, it's the same thing but yes a church sacrament it's more precise and correct.

Before, marriages were said to be "de natura", with the sense of being from man's nature to marry a woman and have children but made without any specific God's blessing.
I'm not sure but I believe that religious marriages over ruled previous rights from natural marriages what generated a lot of confusion and endless battling as normal at the time.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #569 –
Quote from: ersi on
This is only evidence for that the researcher in question has no clue what marriage is.
Did you that just because somebody has a disagreement with you about what marriage is, it's doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is. You claim only opposite sex is needed for the continuation of society. What makes you think the gay people would be having all these children anyway?
Quote from: Belfrager on
man's nature to marry a woman and have children
Which we know it's against nature for some people to marriage the opposite sex. The fact is that people are born into a sexual orientation, which is passed down from the mother's side of the family.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #570 –
Quote from: midnight raccoon on
Quote from: ersi on
This is only evidence for that the researcher in question has no clue what marriage is.
Did you that just because somebody has a disagreement with you about what marriage is, it's doesn't mean he doesn't know what it is.
From your link:
Quote
Evidence exists that same-sex marriages were tolerated in parts of Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt. Artifacts from Egypt, for example, show that same-sex relationships....
Here marriage is conflated with relationships. Surely you can tell the difference between a marriage and a relationship. The author of the article doesn't. Also, "tolerated" is not the same as "recognised" and even when it says "recognised", it's not the same as having a moral justification. A little further:
Quote
In actuality, same-sex marital practices and rituals are less known in Egypt compared to Mesopotamia, where documents exist for a variety of marital practices, including male lovers of kings and polyandry.
Here "male lovers" are equated with marriage. The author is saying that you are married to your lovers. Brilliant.

This is not just a disagreement between me and this article. It's objective proof that the article has not defined its topic.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on
You claim only opposite sex is needed for the continuation of society. What makes you think the gay people would be having all these children anyway?
Well, do you mean you disagree that two-sex species need both of the sexes in order to reproduce? If you disagree, then how did you get past fifth grade? Or didn't you?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #571 –
You're wasting your time, ersi: A hedonist is impervious to all argument. (Did we really need the term "Masochism"? Not before Sadists converted most hedonists… :)  Sophism, given a bad name! Who'd-a thunk it?)
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Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #572 –
Quote from: midnight raccoon on
Which we know it's against nature for some people to marriage the opposite sex.
Nope, it's against their nature, not against Nature. The same way some people satisfies their sexual needs with animals.
If you accept your own aberrations, you'll have to accept other's. So much representative as yours.
A matter of attitude.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #573 –
Quote from: ersi on
Well, do you mean you disagree that two-sex species need both of the sexes in order to reproduce?
Gay people exist, always have existed, preventing them from marrying won't change this or cause them to reproduce. Funny now allowing gays to marry is suddenly an existential threat to society when they've been living in domestic arrangements this whole freaking time and we're talking thousands of years at this point. That's with or without legal sanction or society's approval. All the arguments along your lines and philosophy about what's "natural" flies in the face of nature and what's actually been happening.
Quote from: Belfrager on
The same way some people satisfies their sexual needs with animals.
No. It has not been shown that people are born into that. In gay people, certain brain structures have more in common with members of the opposite sex than with their own sex. The science is in. You guys are the perverts throwing things like this in every time and the two are.
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
A hedonist is impervious to all argument.
Weird how this "hedonist" is the one arguing to put gays in nice domestic arrangements instead of the stereotypical gay lifestyle :left: Do you remember the conservative argument for gay marriage that I showed you before. The LGBT have been arguing for the very opposite of hedonism.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal