What's Going on in the Americas?

Topic: What's Going on in the Americas? (Read 261709 times)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #525 – 2016-06-01, 23:41:34

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-01, 14:26:55

The gender of parents correlates in novel ways with parent-child relationships but has minor significance for children's psychological adjustment and social success.

There have been people executed for less than that "study".
"Social success" must mean being the drag queen at the queer club.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #526 – 2016-06-02, 02:22:15

Well colonel, I would say in a brief way the sooner your country can get away from the limitations of the present system then the better. it has to start from somewhere and more and more are getting fed up with both the 2 main corporate parties. For now both Clinton and Trump are of little use and they are common in another way and that is dangerous and con merchants. The wider the franchise becomes the more practical democracy is evident. The future is with the young.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #527 – 2016-06-02, 06:25:41

Do you mean, Howie, that we should be more like you?

Why ever would we want to be?

London had a communist mayor. Now, it has a Muslim mayor. What's next? Satan, himself?

Ah! The benefits of a "wider" democracy…!

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #528 – 2016-06-02, 18:20:39

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-01, 14:26:55

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-01, 13:35:45
Can you point to one such study? I'd be interested in seeing their definition of "fine".
Oh, there are lots of them. Let's take one at random .

It doesn't look like random. It's done cleverer than on average, because I had to read further than the first two sentences to be able to dismiss it.

It's an interesting study, even though it doesn't settle our difference. My idea was to take a look at their definition of "fine", but since this study does not contain this word, we'll have to look what the study is about according to the researchers themselves.

The aim: "This study aims to describe the physical, mental and social wellbeing of Australian children with same-sex attracted parents, and the impact that stigma has on them."

The conclusion: "Australian children with same-sex attracted parents score higher than population samples on a number of parent-reported measures of child health. Perceived stigma is negatively associated with mental health."

Some problems.
- It's not really about children's health or wellbeing. It's a survey where only parents are questioned, so it's more about how children's wellbeing is viewed by the parents.
- For general population there are real track records of people's health and wellbeing in the form of statistics collected from physicians. If this data was compared to the survey data, then the data sets are not comparable. I hope they did not do this gross mistake.
- If they did not do the mistake described in the previous point and were comparing that which is comparable, i.e. same-sex couple surveys with hetero couple surveys, then the crux becomes what is meant by stigma.

Because, you see, they say that stigma associates negatively with mental health (this is intuitively so and, if not supported empirically, there must be some mistake in the methodology), while at the same time they affirm that there is either no difference between types of couples or that the same-sex couples do better in terms of wellbeing. To achieve this result, they must have identified and removed the effect of stigma from the results. I don't see how they did that.

At one point, it's said "In fact, a number of authors agree that simply asking a question that compares the sexual orientation of children with same-sex parents to children with heterosexual parents reinforces a heterosexist viewpoint that stigmatises same-sex families" while this entire survey is specifically directed to same-sex couples and asks direct questions about the nature of the subject's current and former relationships ("heterosexual", "same-sex") and sexual orientation ("lesbian", "gay", "bisexual", "other"??!!), so how is this survey itself not having a stigmatising effect? I don't see this issue addressed. Yet the survey results in shining conclusions.

Of course stigma associates negatively with the wellbeing of LGBT(Q etc.) folks. Then how do they display such brilliant results in this survey, as if there were no stigma?

Eventually, there's the broader moral question: Is the stigma justified? Is there a good reason why LGBT(Q etc.) folks should be normalised? If normalised, is it certain that there will be no adverse effects in terms of general sexual culture and legislation? When we normalise LGBT(Q etc.) folks, what specifically is it that we are normalising? Because, you see, they are an open-ended etc. folks ("other" in the survey). Are you positively sure that you are not accidentally normalising pedophilia, incest, bestiality, etc? If you are absolutely certain that you are far from it, then surely you can prove it right here right now. If not, then I say the stigma has a common-sense real-life basis and any irrational attempt to remove the stigma will result in unforeseen consequences. For example, some extremist right-wing queer-hunters may get much more votes than you would like in the next elections.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #529 – 2016-06-02, 23:51:21

Quote from: Belfrager on 2016-06-01, 23:41:34

There have been people executed for less than that "study".
"Social success" must mean being the drag queen at the queer club.

Oh please. Your fluffy "rationality" of "nature" can't withstand real rationality that can be quantified. Multiple studies of indicated that children raised by same-sex parents do as well as opposite sex. In fact, the first article breaks down exactly what it means.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #530 – 2016-06-03, 04:04:35

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-02, 23:51:21

Oh please. Your fluffy "rationality" of "nature" can't withstand real rationality that can be quantified. Multiple studies of indicated that children raised by same-sex parents do as well as opposite sex. In fact, the first article breaks down exactly what it means.

You have no idea what was being quantified there and how. It did not measure children's wellbeing at all, but adults' opinion of it. Moreover, the results were enhanced by clearing away something called perceived stigma.

Under the heading "Perceived stigma" it says, "Parents were asked to indicate how often in the past year their family had experienced stigma related to the their same-sex attraction (eg have people gossiped about you and your family, have people excluded you and your family?)" How are the questions in parentheses related to sexual orientation? They are not. They are related to nothing. Gossipers gossip just for the joy of gossiping, bullies bully just for the joy of bullying, everybody experiences being "excluded" and nobody is exempt from it.

Were the hetero studies similarly enhanced by clearing away the stigma measure? Was it quantified how gossiping etc. correlated with wellbeing of heteros? I know, it simply assumed that nobody gossips heteros. So much for quantification. It's a very delicate matter what exactly is being quantified.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #531 – 2016-06-03, 06:29:44

You give ample red neck attitudes a wide support Oakdale. London did not have a Commie mayor it had a left winger then a fully Conservative one (twice by the way) now a Muslim. That is democracy but to your mind-set anything outside of your restricted politics is Bolshevik. Didn't agree with the leftist or Muslim mayors but that IS practical democracy and that width cannot happen in the US of A and fine you know it. You unfortunately have a restricted way over there and more and more people have at last realised hat one but a way to go yet. When you have a broader thing locally, State and nationally then try and challenge but ours is broader and more democratic. It is the old story that when folk like yourself cannot answer or know there is a problem you try to swerve elsewhere. Hey, I will give you that stance as being regular too!

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #532 – 2016-06-03, 11:43:07

Howie, you think Boris wasn't a communist? And you think a "practicing" Muslim is furthering the English tradition of democracy? (Let's not quibble over terms: You reject the only sensible Scots from your history, and cow-tow to the English… But -I have to give you credit- you've not yet succumbed to learning "their" language! Soldier on…)

I don't wish to "challenge" your wider democracy, RJ: You're welcome to it! But we may not bail you out, again…

I appreciate that you'd like to see us (U.S.) go down the same rabbit hole. That's the sort of fellow you are, I've come to know. Who knows? Perhaps even you'll live long enough to witness that… I hope not! (But, Long life, Howie! I just don't want my country to follow the path yours trail-blazed.) We're a different breed — what used to be called, before the current era, free men.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #533 – 2016-06-03, 16:31:54

You really are a desperado. Boris is an member of the Conservative Party and as the PM Cameron has stated he will not go for a third term Boris may step forward. All you have over there is the clown Trump and that liar and con merchant, Clinton. What a charade that is and othes are kept out of the picture by the big two. Why if such a great democracy are so many suffering? The big two really only look after the haves and con the rest.

You do try (will give you that) to be a satire punch) but behind that is no great argument or principle with what you lot are saddled with. Instead you interfere in the world, restrict your own folks rights and dance on law. You do in practice need a wider situation but don't expect it soon as it will be a long slow climb against the money controllers. The decent if being privately honest will I am sure sigh at what the country is saddled with. Trump as a possible leader? Shows the depth of your problem.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #534 – 2016-06-03, 23:23:00

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-03, 04:04:35

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-02, 23:51:21
Oh please. Your fluffy "rationality" of "nature" can't withstand real rationality that can be quantified. Multiple studies of indicated that children raised by same-sex parents do as well as opposite sex. In fact, the first article breaks down exactly what it means.
You have no idea what was being quantified there and how. It did not measure children's wellbeing at all, but adults' opinion of it. Moreover, the results were enhanced by clearing away something called perceived stigma.

Under the heading "Perceived stigma" it says, "Parents were asked to indicate how often in the past year their family had experienced stigma related to the their same-sex attraction (eg have people gossiped about you and your family, have people excluded you and your family?)" How are the questions in parentheses related to sexual orientation? They are not. They are related to nothing. Gossipers gossip just for the joy of gossiping, bullies bully just for the joy of bullying, everybody experiences being "excluded" and nobody is exempt from it.

Were the hetero studies similarly enhanced by clearing away the stigma measure? Was it quantified how gossiping etc. correlated with wellbeing of heteros? I know, it simply assumed that nobody gossips heteros. So much for quantification. It's a very delicate matter what exactly is being quantified.

It's even worst, there's simply not enough data for conducting any credible study. How many children have been raised for at least until 18 years old by legal homosexual "couples"? Saying "there are multiple studies that..." it's not even a fallacy, it's just a pure lie and manipulating propaganda.

Edit: there's a better thread for this, the same sex marriage. well, the same way gays are everywhere, posting against should be done everywhere.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #535 – 2016-06-07, 09:25:34

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-02, 18:20:39

Some problems.
- It's not really about children's health or wellbeing. It's a survey where only parents are questioned, so it's more about how children's wellbeing is viewed by the parents.

Oh yes, let's do dismiss parents' reports of their children's outcomes. The fact remains that what matters in parenting is not what's between a parent's legs but what's in their hearts and parenting skills.
http://qz.com/438469/the-science-is-clear-children-raised-by-same-sex-parents-are-at-no-disadvantage/

Quote

In January, researchers from the Columbia Law School examined 76 studies published after 1985 and found that only four of them concluded that children raised by gay couples faced additional adversity as a result of having same-sex parents. To be considered, each of the studies had to meet established guidelines that accounted for credibility and relevance.
More recently, researchers from the University of Colorado Denver and the University of Oregon used the tool Web of Science to examine the ways in which scientific papers analyzed children of same-sex parents over time, and how each paper cited others to back its analysis. They found that over time, more and more papers cited other research that highlighted that there’s “no differences” in the outcomes for children based solely on whether they were raised by same-sex, heterosexual, or single parents.

That's right, it's the family environment that determines a child's outcome, not what the family consists of. There's plenty of the data, Belfrager. It's just that the analysis and results of it is contrary to what some people would hope for. Multiple studies show this and some do include the adult children raised by same-sex couples.

Maybe there is a "gay lobby" in the form of the HRC and groups in America. But it remains dwarfed by the religious lobby, who must invent one idiotic issue after another to keep the donations flowing. The reason the "gay lobby" wins is that what the religious lobby tries to tends to violate the equal protection clause of the American constitution and runs perilously close to violating the establishment of a religion clause as well (in these cases it tends to be fundamentalist protestant christianity.) You can't just pass laws because you're religiously offended by something unless you can show another damn good reason for it. The reason for this is to prevent religious tyranny, with America's founding father's knowing of the tyranny of Cromwell's Britain and even some of the early Christian colonies in the new world (ie pilgrims ostensibly fleeing Britain for religious freedom and immediately establishing what amounted to a religious dictatorship.) Anyway, when Ersi complains of a "gay lobby" it tends to provoke laughter on my end because Republican Party (the majority party in congress) and the religious lobby are often one in the same.

Bel, I understand your reasoning for moving this argument to the gay marriage thread, but I though it better to answer the arguments in the same thread they originated in.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #536 – 2016-06-08, 01:39:07

Is the Chicago PD keeping up with tradition?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #537 – 2016-06-08, 02:05:01

Sure! The next time the Democrats have their convention there, they'll crack a few heads of the rioters. Then the Dems will nominate someone who loses 49 out of 50 (…or is it 57?

) states in the general election!
Or did you refer to the gun violence, in one of the most strictly gun-controlled cities in America?

RJ, try to at least make a point, would you?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #538 – 2016-06-08, 02:51:44

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2016-06-08, 02:05:01

(...or is it 57? )

But will that happen before or after a Republican tells us again how Paul Revere rode to warn the British?

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #539 – 2016-06-08, 03:59:13

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-07, 09:25:34

Oh yes, let's do dismiss parents' reports of their children's outcomes. The fact remains that what matters in parenting is not what's between a parent's legs but what's in their hearts and parenting skills.

You are the one about "what's between a parent's legs" and nothing else. My point is pretty simple, the study fails to define and measure anything. Specifically, it fails to define e.g. "parent" and fails to measure anything relevant to children. It's irrelevant to children because it's adults talking about children in a survey, it's not children's health records.

Instead of parent, they apparently have anyone who fosters a child. They don't even define same-sex couples, because they let people self-report "homosexual, bisexual, other". Now, what's that "other," one might ask. And the results are tampered with the concept of stigma. Nothing in the report is in your favour.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-07, 09:25:34

That's right, it's the family environment that determines a child's outcome, not what the family consists of.

There's plenty of the data, Belfrager. It's just that the analysis and results of it is contrary to what some people would hope for. Multiple studies show this and some do include the adult children raised by same-sex couples.

But you did not cite a study that proves this. You cited a report that says that scientific studies cite each other. This by itself says nothing.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-07, 09:25:34

Anyway, when Ersi complains of a "gay lobby" it tends to provoke laughter on my end because Republican Party (the majority party in congress) and the religious lobby are often one in the same.

So for you everything that helps you bash Republicans is good. And vice versa: if there's any element in it that implies bashing Republicans, it's good. That's a perfect mirror image of Oakdale.

For me it's a matter that can be analysed rationally. Like this:

1. "Same-sex marriage" results in a biological impossibility where no children can be born.
2. We have legalised it anyway and we get to hear in the news and so-called science how this makes no difference, even though it makes absolutely no sense, because it denies #1.
3. Therefore, there's a gay lobby. Unless you think that you don't need a lobby to institute laws that (a) make no sense and (b) favour a narrow percentage of population while (c) brainwashing many to believe as if it were good for everyone.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #540 – 2016-06-08, 04:36:37

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-08, 03:59:13

1. "Same-sex marriage" results in a biological impossibility where no children can be born.

So what? There are plenty of heterosexual marriages in which children being born is a biological impossibility, at least without the treatments a lesbian couple would get. Will you tell the man with a low sperm count and his fiancé with a problem her ovaries they shouldn't legally be allowed to marry? How about an elderly couple?

We've moved long past the stage in which having children is the only reason for marriage. This isn't the middle ages when you found a wife for the main purpose of making babies with her to later use as field hands. Far from being a rational argument, this requirement that a couple be fertile to qualify for marriage is something of an anachronism in a technological, industrialized world.

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-08, 03:59:13

3. Therefore, there's a gay lobby. Unless you think that you don't need a lobby to institute laws that favour a narrow percentage of population while brainwashing many to believe as if it were good for everyone.

At what point did I say there wasn't? Every group under the sun has lobbyists in Washington. "X lobby" implies corruption and coercion, but in practice it means nothing. In America if you don't have a lobby, your cause will lose. In it's simplest form, a lobby talks to senators and representatives to persuade them to the cause. The problem comes in if gifts and favors enters the conversation. What I say is that the "gay lobby" , in America, is laughably small compared to the Christian one and they give gifts and favors to the GOP big time.

But you say I bash Republicans. This the party that just nominated Donald Trump. There's nothing I can say or do that makes them look worse than they do to themselves.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #541 – 2016-06-08, 09:26:06

Oh and here's links to a number studies. The children of same sex marriage are fine. There's no data to suggest otherwise. You'll note that a study from 2013 does indicate that before same-sex marriage became legal, it did provide a stresser. This begs the question about if the Right's zeal to "think of the children" is the very thing that has the potential to hurt them.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #542 – 2016-06-08, 13:15:26

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 04:36:37

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-08, 03:59:13
1. "Same-sex marriage" results in a biological impossibility where no children can be born.
So what?

So you have laid aside rationality, sense of reality and science. Studies you link to demonstrate clearly that you have no idea what was being studied.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 04:36:37

We've moved long past the stage in which having children is the only reason for marriage.

We've moved long past the stage in which there's any reason for marriage. Half of children are born outside marriages and most "couples" (such as couples for a month or, more realistically, a night) don't get married. People see marriage as an unnecessary burden or formality, not a right. Only queer lobby claims it's a universal right, except that they are inconsistent when they exclude for example inter-generational marriage and interspecies marriage from their agenda. But who would expect square-circlers to be consistent anyway.

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2016-06-08, 04:36:37

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-08, 03:59:13
3. Therefore, there's a gay lobby. Unless you think that you don't need a lobby to institute laws that favour a narrow percentage of population while brainwashing many to believe as if it were good for everyone.
At what point did I say there wasn't?

Queer lobby is the only explanation for a concept like "same-sex marriage". It doesn't have common sense or biology on its side. It has nothing going for it besides lobby, propaganda, brainwashing, sheer insanity.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #543 – 2016-06-09, 10:36:55

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #544 – 2016-06-09, 11:03:09

It is implicit in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery. This in the light of Mark 10 (...a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh... Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her... And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.) covers it exhaustively - assuming that the bolded words have a meaning. In the modern world, they don't.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #545 – 2016-06-09, 12:34:27

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-09, 11:03:09

It is implicit in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery.

I thought you liked to quote Leviticus, which is very specific (20:10)

Quote

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

King James, just for kicks.

Any man having sex with a wife married to someone else than him, and the wife, should be killed. Any woman having sex with a wife or man having sex with a husband, or any woman having sex with a husband (unless she herself is married with someone else, in which case death does apply) will get off scot-free.

Any man having sex with a woman in such a manner that death does not occur was expected to marry the woman in question. Failure to do so did not seem to be fatal.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #546 – 2016-06-09, 13:31:53

Quote from: jax on 2016-06-09, 12:34:27

Quote from: ersi on 2016-06-09, 11:03:09
It is implicit in the ten commandments: Thou shalt not commit adultery.
I thought you liked to quote Leviticus, which is very specific (20:10)
Quote
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
King James, just for kicks.

Any man having sex with a wife married to someone else than him, and the wife, should be killed. Any woman having sex with a wife or man having sex with a husband, or any woman having sex with a husband (unless she herself is married with someone else, in which case death does apply) will get off scot-free.

Nobody gets off scot-free: "...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

Quote from: jax on 2016-06-09, 12:34:27

Any man having sex with a woman in such a manner that death does not occur was expected to marry the woman in question. Failure to do so did not seem to be fatal.

That's Deuteronomy, not Leviticus. Deuteronomy 22:29, "Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days." Fifty shekels, not scot-free.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #547 – 2016-06-09, 14:04:37

I think jax's point is that Leviticus does not address those three cases.
(Do such things go on only in the Americas?)

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #548 – 2016-06-09, 14:20:25

America's the continent where King James wrote the Hebrew Bible.

Re: What's Going on in the Americas?

Reply #549 – 2016-06-09, 14:24:26

I think jax's point, if any, was on the cartoon level.

We should not talk about Law of Moses on the literal level. Christians are supposed to be free of the law. Modern society takes this to be a license to do and say whatever they please without any responsibility, i.e. they disregard NT along with the OT.

Only American Bible Belt neighbourhood asserts literal OT a la Sharia. In this sense I understand where Sang is coming from.