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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 230190 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #675 –
Well ersi the Ukrainian children may be able to bite into that chocolate figure but their adults are still in the kindergarten mentality stage themselves.

A few days ago that arrogant woman who does the journalist sessions at the White House was at her usual lying dismissive self. On the matter of the Russian journalists taken into custody she stated that they had been involved in carrying some form of shells. She had simply repeated what that equally arrogant and idiotic Prime Minister. When asked if she had just accepted what she was told or any verification she body-swerved it. If it wasn't so serious one could laugh not only at the sheer stupidity but the lies. One Russian tv company journalist was released as he was British but the other two innocents are still being held by the new fascist lot in Kiev.

When those people were burned at the Trade Union office and others jumped then got beaten to death by Kiev fanatics it was just a report but when a squad of Ukrainian soldiers got the bullet it was more emphasised.  The White House and the Western poodles were quick enough to condemn Assad holding a Presidential Election in Syria but Ukraine is somehow different. No matter what Putin and the Russian Federation does they are being parodied as the bad guys. It is a load of tosh and you can bet your bottom dollar that the corporates will increasingly get involved in Ukraine. The real story is that the US and it's Western pets don't like not being the world controllers and Russia is one of the few which does not curtsy to this fact.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #676 –
Quote from: rjhowie on

Well ersi the Ukrainian children may be able to bite into that chocolate figure

Assumed that their parents can afford those chocolate figures ...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #677 –
Nearer the truth than some ay imagine. Austerity is just around the proverbial corner and you don't get money from places without paying interest. Neither has the place paid their power bills. The West has much to blame here regarding Ukraine and the constant creeping towards Russia by NATO. Excuses are given for that tripe which are lies. In addition the West is socking Russia and the main reason is that it is seen as a threat to Western money men and corporates.

The new President says he will meet with President Putin whilst the acting Prime Minister who is an aggressive, hate filled git, spits out hate towards Russia. The Ukrainian people do not realise what they are about to go through day to day living.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #678 –
Kiev made much of the shooting down of a plane and the loss of life by rebels in the East. One wishes they were as frank about the shelling they are doing of houses however. Now that Prime Minister who is a nasty and vindictive git is going bananas over the cutting gas cutting off. Kiev wants to decide what it's discount should be not the supplier! When one realises that they were getting and offered a discount lower than Europe you couldn't make this up. Even the EEC top offical on power supplies has said publically what Russia offered Ukraine was an excellent thing especially as Kiev wasn't paying it's bills. Now once again Russi is the bad guy.  The White House press fools just repeat anything that disgusting Kiev Prime Minister says. I don't recall the White House apologising over the 2 Russian journalists they said had mortars  amongst stuff when arrested. Lies of course but no apology from the US or Kiev now we are getting another about Russian tanks in Ukraine.

Just a day or two ago at a protest in Kiev when the mobsters attacked the Russian embassy there a government minister actually supported them rioters and called the Russian President names. The police were nowhere to be seen.  The Ukrainian nationalist government are of course the greatest and no matter what Russia does or doesn't do they are the automatic baddies. Europe however is concerned about pipe supplies and remember too thet Kiev illegally siphoned off pipes when they weren't paying their bills. Russia time after time has stated it has no wish to invade Ukraine but Kiev has constantly said the opposite and the US and Allies happy to go along with the liars. Yet no matter that Russia has repeatedly said it's stance the US is determined with it's puppets to try and isolate Russia.  That will not happen and the Federation can sell it's supplies to China or anyone else. We should also remember that Europe depends on Russian gas and Putin has made it very clear he still is happy to supply the Europeans with what they want. It is high time that Europe realised that the US can bully what it likes as it has it's own oil  but they don't.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #679 –
Elsewhere I said that Russians are lucky not to have an Iraq-like quagmire after the takeover of Crimea, but the mess at their border with Ukraine is ongoing. Ukrainian border guards keep complaining about border violations by Russian military air force, and Ukrainian defence minister (or seeming equivalent) has issued a direct warning now, says Itar-Tass http://en.itar-tass.com/world/739026
It comes close to a declaration of war.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #680 –
Howie, Russia made itself the baddies the minute they decided to invade Crimea. How can you believe anything out of Putin's mouth after he was caught lying that those weren't Russian soldiers. Maybe the Ukraine couldn't pay its gas bill because the former pro-Russian president just about drove the country into the ground not to mention made it all but defenceless against Russia. Nope, didn't think of that one, did you?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #681 –
And didn't Crimea cost anything? Must be quite a nerve to keep pressing on debt after removing someone's limb. If Crimea was worth nothing, why not simply give it back?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #682 –
You really are so naive Sanguinemoon and ersi.

Russia did not invade Crimea no matter the propaganda junk that the US media brains the people with. Crimea voted to go BACK to where they belonged. You don't metnion that Ukraine has created incident at the same border with Russia and their border guards attacked. You are only told what your corporate media wants to tell you.  Can I remind that the USA was right behind those Albanians who decided to have a referendum in a Serbian Province and stuffed Serbia. This is the usual pattern if it suits America.

You just need to watch that ignorant woman in the red hair who gives the press releases at the White House. She comes out with lies or denies any wrong doing by Kiev. Even when  evidence on particular inclidents proves the White Houese being deliberately wrong there is no apology. Right now Kiev is shelling towns and villages killing completely inccoent civilians even though their President says that will never happen. I dare say if they show a village completely destroyed and bits of bodies of not just men but women and children that is  "not proof" either?  The US has led this anti-Russian fanaticism campaign and threatened evn more sanctions against Moscow. The contrast in Russia however does not suit or fot in with what America wants, etc. Russia did away in the parliament Lower House with the prospect of invading the East after President Putin asked them to discuss keeping out. Russia has also repeatedly intimated that it wants an end to the bloodshed but America is determined to blame Russia. Once again I must reiterate that the ant-Russian Federation stuff is because when American cannot control a country it then gets up to mischief time after time. Europe is getting nervous and industry in particular and no more so than in Gemrany who is worried about power supplies which Russia has always said it would continue to supply. But it is surprise, surprise, Ukraine which is causing Europe problems and their are US companies concerned about the stupid attempts to restrict trade with Russia.

No matter whenever Russia shows a fair stance it is ignored and accused as stokers in the conflict which is just not true. The biggest stoker in the world is the US.  Anyway Russia will still have an income selling oil in the Fareast.  In a sense I can almost feel sorry for you Yanks with a blindness on Russia and the Ukraine government because you do not always get the full picture and many times the television media convort or sneakingly give a false picture. Small wonder more and more Americans are getting tired of overseas interference when they find out that they are being lied to as well as manipulated.

The Kiev government is riddled with neo-Nazis and the national Guard n the black uniforms are full of many of these same ballistic thugs. Considering the destroying of civilian homes the cutting off re electricity and water is going to make the Eastern folk in Ukraine sit back is stupid. Even the hospitals taking in the wounded have no power. Russia could have swept across the Border to secure the safety of their own kin but DIDN'T they argued foe peace and discussion so you zombie heads should open your eyes a wee bit more. This is another case of US interfering and thinks it rules the world. Even in the last week or so a word by the Polish Foreign Secretary on Ameica was a hummdinger compete with expletives. That Kiev wants to be chummier with a mess like the EEC when so many in the East are of a completely different mindset is in itself mind blowint. Kiev did not bother tasking this problem in at all. It is East Ukriane that provides an awful big chuink of income to the State and now killing innocents and their homes will do nothing for a united Ukraine.

It is not Russia that is causing the headaches and has done much in going along with the West so grow up and try and let it sink in this is yet another case of US imperialism at work. That that utter stupid and pathetic John McCain was treated as a hero in Kiev is a disgrace. Russia should have kept the option of guarding it's own people from a government infiltrated by fascists. To think that Americans ven had him as a candidate for the White House is not a show of wide demracy but a show of a warped politcal system. Crimea is Russian so get used to it and there is nothing you can do about it. You cannot control countries like say China and Russian because they are no walkovers and fine you lot know it.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #683 –
Look who's talking naive, Howie. You attribute all contrary opinions to US propaganda, forgetting that I don't follow US news. Where I am located, we have a historical sense of what Russia is about. In fact, my co-workers are most Russians - and the rest are Swedes. There's no need for any outsider to inform me. Instead, I can inform you, as soon as you manage to clear your head from Russian propaganda. I actually wonder how you even have access to it. Must be a superhuman effort on your part, but for such an unworthy cause...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #684 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Russia made itself the baddies the minute they decided to invade Crimea.

Invading Crimea?
As a rule of thumb, invasions look a little bit different. Do you remember the invasion of Iraq?
Aside from Western propaganda rhetoric, Russia had no need 'to invade' Crimea since their troops were stationed there officially for many years.
All you can blame Russia for is that some of their troops have left the bases to prevent Kiev from forestalling the referendum by force.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #685 –
Quote from: krake on

As a rule of thumb, invasions look a little bit different. Do you remember the invasion of Iraq?

Depends on your rule of thumb. Was Anschluss an invasion or not?

Quote from: krake on

Aside from Western propaganda rhetoric, Russia had no need 'to invade' Crimea since their troops were stationed there officially for many years.

So it was already a stand-by occupation. In your eyes maybe it makes it better, yes, but don't be surprised when someone disagrees. Not everyone is happy with the enemy at the gates.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #686 –
Quote from: ersi on

Quote from: krake on

As a rule of thumb, invasions look a little bit different. Do you remember the invasion of Iraq?

Depends on your rule of thumb. Was Anschluss an invasion or not?

There was a referendum.
Quote
Western media and some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but in fact there is no evidence that this was necessary.


Quote from: ersi on

Quote from: krake on

Aside from Western propaganda rhetoric, Russia had no need 'to invade' Crimea since their troops were stationed there officially for many years.

So it was already a stand-by occupation. In your eyes maybe it makes it better, yes, but don't be surprised when someone disagrees. Not everyone is happy with the enemy at the gates.

Crimea was part of the Russian Empire since 1783 ...

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #687 –
Quote from: krake on

There was a referendum.
Quote
Western media and some postwar accounts claim that the poll was rigged, but in fact there is no evidence that this was necessary.

I know you know this already, but I am going to spell out to you what is meant by rigging here, so that you know that I know it too, and how one might consider a rigged referendum a rigging, not a referendum.

While there was a coup in Kiev, there was also a coup in Crimean parliament (end of February). Some unidentified troopers (later acknowledged as Russian forces), took over Crimean parliament. The troopers controlled who went in and who went out, and they kept the press out. Under these circumstances, the parliament voted to have a referendum on independence, at first set on the end of May, soon enough moved to mid-March.

Now, if setting the date of the referendum three months away from the parliamentary decision is not suspicious enough, and then later setting the date just two weeks away is not suspicious either, then I don't know what is. Not to mention the troopers in parliament and the inconsistency of the referendum with laws in place at the beginning of the year.

I don't know how you can call all this legal (and I don't care, feel free to keep calling it whatever you want), but these moves have been a repeated theme in Russian/Soviet history, e.g. the "unanimous will of the people" in the Baltic countries to join the USSR in 1940. The quoted bit is official history in Russia and the same phrase is used for the recent annexation of Crimea.

Quote from: krake on

Crimea was part of the Russian Empire since 1783 ...

And Austria and Germany were one Holy Empire for a thousand years, like forever. You see where this historical argument leads to? The founding of Israel was justified the same way, by means of the Bible. Just ignore the Palestinians, current demographics, the current laws, and everything is fine.

Not that this has any effect on you of course.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #688 –
Quote from: ersi on

Now, if setting the date of the referendum three months away from the parliamentary decision is not suspicious enough, and then later setting the date just two weeks away is not suspicious either, then I don't know what is. Not to mention the troopers in parliament and the inconsistency of the referendum with laws in place at the beginning of the year.

No matter how hard you will try to find inconsistencies regarding the referendum, fact is that the vast majority of Crimeans voted for being part of the Russian Federation. Accept it or not, it was their will!!!

Quote from: ersi on

And Austria and Germany were one Holy Empire for a thousand years, like forever. You see where this historical argument leads to? The founding of Israel was justified the same way, by means of the Bible. Just ignore the Palestinians, current demographics, the current laws, and everything is fine.

What the heck have Palestinians and Jews to do with the Anschluss?
The vast majority of Austrians and Germans were for it. That's a fact, no matter how someone tries to screw up history.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #689 –
It is true that the vast majority in Crimea wanted to be back with Russia having been transferred back in the Soviet days. It was a case of Krushchev dumping Crimea in another Soviet Republic it didn't want to be in and bnever really settled in being so treated.

Meanwhile in present Ukraine villages are being destroyed and towns badly damaged. So much for the coroprate millioaire who is President saying there would be on way civilians would be harmed or their homes. It hasn't turned out that way has it? That red haired witch in the White House when quizzed a little while back on the numbers fleeing into Russia denied it existed as there was no proof even contradicting the UN report. Innocent men, women, children are being killed in East Ukraine and willleave a bitter legacy. Ironically the east is where a great proportion of the tax money comesd from to Kiev but they couldn't care a damn in the capital what happens to the population. And the disgraceful utter rubbish being used by the media in the West is disgusting. Russia bent over backwards on the money owed by Ukraine and were treated terribly by the Kiev lot. Russia has also being repeating the view that talking is the way forward yet still being accused of stoking the situation.

Due to the way that Kiev has treated their kinsmen I would not have been surprised if Russia had decided to invade the place to protect them and the way the people are being treated leans to that matter.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #690 –
For referendum results like that, pretty all the Ukrainians and Tatars would have needed to vote to join Russia and we know this isn't the case. In fact the Russia majority isn't as great as the media makes it out to be. As of 2001, Russians only made up 58% of the population and falling fast. If newer data was available, it would show a smaller majority of Russia or perhaps even a plurality (yes, the Russian percentage was falling fast enough for that to be a possibility.)

Then there's the Russian roadblocks attempting to block access by OSCE observers. I wonder why that was. Hrmmmm, because they were rigging the referendum. There were other irregularities, such as Russian journalist being allowed to vote even though she wasn't a Ukrainian citizen.

Yes, I'm still smelling a big pile of manure.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #691 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

For referendum results like that, pretty all the Ukrainians and Tatars would have needed to vote to join Russia and we know this isn't the case.

Wherefrom did you pick up this nonsense?
Could you please explain the logic your strange statement is based on?

- Voter participation was around 80%.
- The overhelming majority of those taking part at the referendum, did vote for joining the Russian Federation.

Wonder which part you can't comprehend.

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Then there's the Russian roadblocks attempting to block access by OSCE observers.

OSCE observers have been officially invited to attend the referendum. Since the USA and its allies declared the referendum illegal, they opposed to send OSCE observers.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #692 –
Well Sanguinemoon the manure smell is coming from the White House which backs up any lie the Kiev lot dish out. Russia has continually argued that there has to be a peaceful dialogue and outcome so what don't you understand about that? Kiev yakked that there would be no attacks on civilians or their homes, etc. And the actual result has been the opposite. Likewise that mention of the UN on civilians fleeing over the border into Russia and the White House coming out with that disgusting lie syndrome. The Russian President was the one who said to the parliamen there that the opportunity not to be involved army-wise should be the direction. You studiously ignore that because your mindset has been brained by the media. Had Russia invaded to protect their kin the Ukrainian thing would have been done with right there and then but even when Russia argues for peace we get this  stupidity and blindness from folk like you.

Now the debt Ukraine owes to Russia for power is over 5 billion and Kiev is doing damn all about it. If Kiev owed the US thgat the White House would have found an excuse to invade the place! As for Crimea that is another corner you are blind on. The referendum was instigated by the Crimeans themselves and NOT by Russia and it is a bit of alaugh that the West led by the White House comes out with this rubbish attitude to ther process. When it suits they will accept referendums. Crimea as I said is back where it should ever have been moved from and the people are happy with that. That is more important than imperialism. he Kiev government is a disgrace and includes neo-Nazis in Ministries. The National Guard is full of Right Sector members and similars. No attention is being considered that the east is nott happy about being shackled to Europe and if it thinks that battering the people down will stop resentment they are totally wrong.

One would think the Cold War had not gone away but it is a case that imperialism and corporate attitudes prevail and trying to make Russia look like the bad guy.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #693 –
Interesting that as more and more civilians get killed and homes destroyed in numbers the Ukraine news is on the back burner. The West and it's Kiev lackey lot are getting away with, well, almost murder. Add to this water and electricity cut off into the bargain and Kiev and the US thinks this will lead to solving things? Throw in the enthusiasm for europe by Kiev this will only extend the ill-feeling in th east of Ukraine.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #694 –
Quote
Patchwork Makeup of Rebels Fighting Ukraine Makes Peace Talks Elusive
DONETSK, Ukraine — One rebel group, Oplot, comes from the Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. Another, the Russian Orthodox Army, is composed of Russians and Ukrainians. A third, named for a river, Kalmius, is made up mainly of coal miners.

This motley mix forms just part of the fighting force of Ukraine’s eastern uprising. It is more patchwork than united front: Some groups get along with others. Some do not. And their leaders seem to change with the weather.

“I can’t keep them straight anymore,” said a fighter who was buying walkie-talkies in preparation for what fighters here expect will be a major showdown with Ukraine’s military.


Rj, does this square with what you're learning from your source?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #695 –
Hi jimbro. Of course i am fully aware that there is no one set of people in the rebellion. That is a fact of life.  However it plays second fiddle to the repeated killing of civilians. Kiev makes statements it is not them and that is almost as ridiculous as that pain-in-the-neck lady with the red air who makes the White House staements. If ever someone insulted intelligence it is her!  Maybe there are aliens who have landed and doing to killing of the civilian population! At least twice if not three times shelling has went over the border. A squad Russian Border guards were injured and a border post damaged. Either Kiev is not very good at firing stuff or they are lying and I suspect it is both.  One city has been very badly damaged amongst other places including virtually a whole village that has not been involved in any action.

When Kiev went hell bent in some loose link with the EEC they totally ignored the fact of life that much of their main government income comes from the industrial east of Ukraine and that place was not keen on being "European." Instead of  sensible dialogue they simply told the east and they were supposed to just knuckle under. When you consider that much of the Nazi sympathisers during WW2 were from the west of Ukraine including their own SS units small wonder the east is very concerned. The Right Sector and their equal group of several neo-Nazi groups today think their WW2 Nazi leaders were heroes. Many of the Right Sector and their pals are in the national guard in the black uniforms (quite appropriate!) so you see jimbro both sides have a selection of parties involved . Kiev is the arrogant corner and just ignored those who were not happy with their deliberations and such hence the insurrection.

Russia has kept out of the fighting whilst still arguing that dialogue is the right direction however it has also stated that if cross-border shelling continues they will not sit back. So Kiev is a patchwork of different groups but some of the government ministers are fromthe extreme right and far from being democratic so look at them for a change!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #696 –
Now there is to be another meeting to consider more sanctions against the Russian Federation. Talk about a nonsense/ More time should be spent trying to stop the killing of civilians the rambling bombing of civilians, homes, etc.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #697 –
And what do you know - Obama comes on television to lead another big extension to sanctions on Russia. Flimsy excuses oif course and yet to provide proof of the so-called reasons which are damn nonsense. I bet a pound to a penny the US will make up the gaps by giving their own corporates room to fill the gap.
"Quit you like men:be strong"
 

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #698 –
Quote from: krake on
Wherefrom did you pick up this nonsense?
Could you please explain the logic your strange statement is based on?

- Voter participation was around 80%.
- The overhelming majority of those taking part at the referendum, did vote for joining the Russian Federation.

Wonder which part you can't comprehend.

The voter participation rate, in fact, is part of the problem. As of 2000, the Russian majority as 55% and falling fast. Newer data doesn't seem to be available, but the demographic trend calls into question if Russians were actually a majority at the time of referendum. The results were have required the majority of both the Ukrainians and Tartars voting to join Russia. If the turnout have been say 55%. at least we can say that the other ethnic groups didn't vote in large numbers.

Why did the Russians try to deny the observers access? If you're going to commit election fraud, wine and dine your guests, put them in a good mood. Just don't so extravagant that it seems like you're trying buy their favor, even though you are. Don't give your side 98 percent of the vote. Pick a more realistic number, based on polls. Give your side a couple higher percentage than the polls say and give the opposition a couple lower, but still within the poll's margin of error. If the polling data indicates that your side is going to lose badly, abort the operation (not to say the join Russia side would have.) This smells not only of election fraud, but that rank amateurs committed it. This paragraph doesn't prove the allegations by any stretch of the imagination; but if you keep smelling shit, check the bottom of your shoes. Of course, Putin could afford to let this be handled in such a clumsy way since there wasn't much the West could do about it besides sanctions without risking World War III.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #699 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
And what do you know - Obama comes on television to lead another big extension to sanctions on Russia. Flimsy excuses oif course and yet to provide proof of the so-called reasons which are damn nonsense. I bet a pound to a penny the US will make up the gaps by giving their own corporates room to fill the gap.

Our favorite Scotsman once again offers excellent news. :yes: