The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Topic: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time (Read 98381 times)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #250 – 2014-09-08, 18:55:08

My country decided it was "blood in, blood out" a long time ago. I've wondered if the advertisement for that was true.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #251 – 2014-09-08, 19:08:16

Quote from: Luxor on 2014-09-09, 05:24:39

Now we are getting promised more powers if we vote no. They must think we are stupid. Why would we want some more powers (but not any that really count) when we can have all the powers under our control if we vote yes.
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The only thing I'm dreaming about is living in a country that isn't ruled by another.

God Speed Luxor in the pursuit of your dreams of National Independence, where each Scot will be able to enjoy all the fruits of their labors, & desire what course to steer the tides of a self-determined future without interference from afar.

Yes Luxor, from that moment onward forever your Scotland's Future will be in Scotland's hands!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #252 – 2014-09-09, 01:26:16

I feel sadly that Luxor is a little like many Scots and more ruled by the heart than the mind.

In an independent Scotland Salmond wants to be in the EEC and already a great chunk of our laws are decided in Brussels not in Gt Britain or Scotland. Should there be separation and GB votes in a Referendum to be out of Europe then Scotland does have a problem. Luxor neatly steps aside from the hard fact that Brussels will be the "country" that decides things and Scotland would be under the same regime as the rest of Europe which is in a turmoil.

When talking to the two shop assistants voting yes I tried to get a proper dialogue with them. I raised everything from no shared pound to no central bank, cost ot embassies all the changes and they made little attempt to defend themselves. Instead the answerrwas "Something would be worked out." With respect that is emotion not head sense and living just on the emotional is not a good basis for anything. Indeed all those who simply do what Salmond does and sneer simply say there would be a shared currency after a separation/ That is just plain bonkers as is having no central bank. And still linked to the Bank of England as a hope?! In day to day terms that would mean that an independent Scotland would have their economics, etc ruled from another country altogether!

There are also an awful lot of people in the SNP and near to them with a hidden agenda whatever Salmond says about the form of Head of State. What I am saying is there is a republican lot who are keeping their mouths shut rather than upset their voting chances so an example of political deviance and lack of morality. They have kept zipped and being dishonest and leaves a future matter to be vented. As for the Unionists side giving some lie or propaganda stuff on powers such is rich coming from a nationalist mindset! That lot have come out with all sorts of propaganda themselves. A year or so ago there were discussions about powers and that it was found that perhaps the majority of Scots would have liked a third question on that very thing so it isn't a casual throw in. Personally, i was in the minority corner who voted against devolution but put up with it as a fact of life. The more layers of government we get the greater the cost and it became the chattering class lifeblood.

Are there those who are incapable? Yep there are. Surveys showed that the majority of the population had no wish to see the naval subs at Faslane being shunted off but the same people who are of that mind go along at the same time with the SNP slogan against such! The media is as always going proverbially bananas and they are boring a lot of people to death night after night. With so many facts being dished out continually, Scots who say they don't know enough are either not very bright or not interested. For all those shortbread heids waving the tartan stating as Salmond did with the cry of "Yes we can" should remember they tried that one in the ex-colonies!

NAW THANKS!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #253 – 2014-09-09, 05:39:32

Quote from: jax on 2014-09-08, 18:34:51

The opposite scenario would be much more likely to happen in the event of an independent Scotland, that Scotland stays in the EU and the rest of the UK leaves.

It certainly will be interesting to see how much independent Scotland will be, adhesion to EU presupposing a transfer of an huge part of sovereignty... that they can count on it.
As for the UK for long that they should had been invited to leave, their double policy being inadmissible.

Anyway, if the Yes wins, the next eighteen will be an historical moment and today's generations of Scots are living an unique opportunity.
I hope they put rjhowie at Brussels, he will drive Germans mad...
Maybe that's the English plan... clever.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #254 – 2014-09-09, 11:50:05

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-09-09, 02:26:16

I feel sadly that Luxor is a little like many Scots and more ruled by the heart than the mind.

Then you would be wrong.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #255 – 2014-09-10, 22:07:53

In a few more days you guys in Scotland will actually get to vote on whether to remain in the UK or become independent. Back in the day when we separated from Britain, we had to do it the hard way. I doubt that the Crown and Parliament would have accepted the outcome of a popular vote in the colonies, probably would have ruled the whole thing illegal and sent more troops to enforce the Crown's will.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #256 – 2014-09-10, 23:23:52

In case anyone still cares… Here's Prof. Somin's take on Scottish Independence. (Would an informed electorate be undecided a week away from polling? Yes, of course! That's democracy…in action.

[Don't just read it… Hear it, Man!])

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #257 – 2014-09-11, 06:54:11

Ah-had Chicago man that sounds quite sensible at first thought until you realise the actual truth of that money-class revolution! Even Time-Life several years ago in a documentary said what some of us already knew and that was in hard terms only a third of the population went out to support the event. Another third wanted to stay with the Crown and the last third didn't much care a dashed thing who ran the country. In the first Russian Revolution the Bolshies were a minority yet still managed to destroy the provisional Government when they had a coup leading the civil war.And as for voting rights your own lot have nothing to boast about bwteen 1961 and 64! Not happy with the club and want out of the US? - no chance. So if quoting histry again mjsmsprt40 be cautious!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #258 – 2014-09-11, 11:02:01

OK, RJH. Your undying hatred of the United States has been noted.

Now that that's out of the way: I've been reading the blogs at the place where I keep my blog these days, since the old place threw us out in the street-- and you get a pretty fair spread of ideas about the "Scottish Revolution" as I call it. The link below is a fellow who started out as a "Yes" voter, and is now-- after a bit more than a year of studying the issues-- almost a militant "No" voter. Of course, if you follow this at all closely, you can find blogs written by people going the other way as well-- so Sept. 18 will be an interesting day.

http://scotlandstaywithus.wordpress.com/2014/09/02/how-yes-turned-to-no/

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #259 – 2014-09-11, 22:05:25

I look forward to the day when this country has another discussion on our (forced) Union.

In 5 years time when the Dollar collapses and is no longer considered the world's reserve currency, perhaps we'll revisit it?

Scots should be grateful that the UK allows thus vote peaceably.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #260 – 2014-09-12, 12:59:11

Firstly mjsmsprt40 you are a self created conundrum. When people in an argument or whatever throw in the word 'hatred' it is a very immature reaction being unable to see the point. You have been on this daft kick for a while and it is I am afraid and in simple terms kind of crassly stupid! Unfortunate that has to be said but you are unable to cope with a view on the way your country is actually run and it is not for the benefit of the people. What I am not going to repeatedly repeat is that I have never expressed the word 'hat' but have to put up with you falling back on it. The same applies to your ore limited view on historical matters. I will break a haboit and say just this once that one can disagree strongly with a person or politician's stance but not treat him as a natural leper. The same goes for countries. I even gave a recent example of a man I used to face down as he was an voluntary organiser for the Communists (tiny lot) and he never got one over me but I didn't "hate him" although had no time for his stance. Same applies for your country's determination to be in charge of the world and to heck with anyone else as well as the way the nation is run. If i hated individuals in the ex-colonies i wouldn't even bother myself being here on this Forum so do try to be sensible dear man.

Colonel Rebel does have a principled point and for goodly reason regarding your own history over there. We internally in a democracy came to a co-operative and sensible agreement to have a Referendum. Now compare that with what would happen over in your land. The answer is that all Hell would break loose and the least that would happen would be told you would not be allowed to leave! Countries can have referendums or decide on splits yet you won't even countenance it? Some time ago, i said on the Opera Forum that the USA is in very considerable danger economically for the fuure. Being so bent on wanting to be the work top business, etc at any price including that growing phenomenal debt would one day lead to one almighty collapse. You are not helped by being in hock so much to Red China either.

So if a State or group of them did not feel inclined to be any part of the economic stupidity and could exist themselves why shouldn't they be allowed to leave if they want? What they would get is the sound of marching feet into their territory. Shame on you talking about democracy but not practicing it.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #261 – 2014-09-12, 19:09:57

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-11, 22:05:25

Scots should be grateful that the UK allows thus vote peaceably.

If they want to be independent, I find very strange someone to let their independence will to depend on other's goodwill. Is that an independence?
It doesn't starts too well...

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #262 – 2014-09-12, 21:26:54

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-09-12, 19:09:57

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-11, 22:05:25
Scots should be grateful that the UK allows thus vote peaceably.

If they want to be independent, I find very strange someone to let their independence will to depend on other's goodwill. Is that an independence?
It doesn't starts too well...

It is indeed strange, but US politics in general are strange.

It remains strange to me that most in this country continue to hold a god-like reverence for Abraham Lincoln, when countless dictators in the 20th century cited that man's policy in Atlanta and also his multiple-year suspension of constitutional rights as something of a maverick style.

Leaders from Castro to Hitler to Stalin applauded Lincoln's policies.

Very strange indeed my Portuguese friend....

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #263 – 2014-09-12, 21:38:32

It's quite odd, indeed, that insurrection and rebellion are seen by some -still!- as something other than a perilous undertaking: Their forefathers knew better!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #264 – 2014-09-13, 18:02:54

Nah. Don't subscribe to that about forefathers somehow automatically knew better. Abraham Lincoln was a two-faced liar and a fraud. Kind of excellent illustration that proves my point admirably.

ps. Just look at the way the wonderful nation across the pond dealt with those in 1864 who had the temerity to want to leave! Disgusting and disgraceful. Just nodded to my pic of Lee on my wall.......

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #265 – 2014-09-13, 18:21:31

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #266 – 2014-09-13, 23:33:08

Very good now mjsmsprt40. That Braveheart film was a load of something else and the lead man was an Aussie. On Saturday thousands of Orangemen after a a meeting of speeches marched through Edinburgh and down the Royal mile past the parliament building and finishing at the Scottish Office (a UK building). Took two hours which tells you something. In Glasgow in the main pedestrianised and famous Buchanan shopping street there were both Yes and No things going on and there was a small marquee with the Communist party giving out leaflets and crossing swords with yes people as the Reds are NO supporters!

In a practical sense if the Yes lot of modern Jacobites won their would be half the population disgruntled and stuck with it. I am all out in the campaign to keep Scotland where it is and the latest news is shares going down and withdrawing of money by the financial sector if the worst was to happen. The one thing that has come out of this is the number of daft fellow Scots there are living in the past.

Proud to be Scots - proud to be British!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #267 – 2014-09-14, 01:10:26

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-09-13, 15:33:08

In Glasgow in the main pedestrianised and famous Buchanan shopping street there were both Yes and No things going on and there was a small marquee with the Communist party giving out leaflets and crossing swords with yes people as the Reds are NO supporters!

But of course! Are you aware of this analysis, that projects a Tory Parliament in the "south" for many elections to come:

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Somewhere a number-cruncher in the Tory political back offices is running his Excel Spreadsheet and experiencing a electric tingle of Moral Hazard over this Scottish Independence Referendum. Kicking the Scottish heirs to James Keir Hardie’s intellectual and political legacy out of the British Parliament would be a significant setback to the Labour Party for many elections to come. Prime Minister Cameron sounds sincere in both his concern and his patriotism. In so being, he could very well have to play Abe Lincoln to his own party’s George McClellans. Scottish Independence has a lot to offer the cynical, hardball realist who votes Tory in The British Electoral System.

Usually, "the Reds" play the long game… They'd not yield Scotland, if it cost them the rest of the UK!

RJ, you have my sympathies; and I appreciate your patriotism, both as a stance and a reasoned conclusion. (Although you are a closet-Socialist -as are many of your countrymen- you still know that you can't "cook the books" of a bankrupt company…

) Vote NO!
Voting YES means the stupid people win… Which means everybody eventually loses: If they (the YES folks…) had to risk more than their posterity -after giving up their probity!- that is, if they had to do what we Americans did; they'd blanch! Do you doubt it?

My most serious (and, mostly, uninformed) opinion on this "question" is another: What rights and privileges are the Scots deprived of? Put another way, How are Scots harmed (…say, more than England, Wales and Northern Ireland…) by their union?
When I read^* your Declaration of Independence, perhaps I'll understand… But, to my knowledge, it hasn't been written yet. (One doesn't wonder why: the list of grievances is woefully inadequate! Still, I'm an American: What do I know?

)
I do hope your "side" wins.
——————————————————
* reed gives the pronunciation; some people -I know- have unnecessary difficulties, with spelling… Even you, now, can hardly get it wrong!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #268 – 2014-09-14, 15:36:08

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-09-13, 23:33:08

On Saturday thousands of Orangemen after a a meeting of speeches marched through Edinburgh and down the Royal mile past the parliament building and finishing at the Scottish Office (a UK building).

Thus giving the "Yes" a vote a boost in the polls.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #269 – 2014-09-14, 17:16:02

Groundkeeper Willie has something to say.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk[/video]

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #270 – 2014-09-14, 18:32:03

Well, being Scotland independence an almost irrelevant thing, except for themselves of course, better to pay attention to what those that really matters have to say about it.
I read that the principal economist (or something of the sort) of Deutsch Bank went to public to advert about the "huge economic problems" an independent Scotland will face.

Since no one ever asked the opinion of such insect, it's obvious that he's delivering Mrs Merkel message. That's very very interesting, why Germany is helping the British...

Of course there is not something as a free lunch and such "help" will be payed back ten times more. Better the British to get rid of Scotland...

Welcome to European politics, something a bit more complex than many naive souls are used to.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #271 – 2014-09-14, 22:44:27

I have a question for those who are supposedly 'in the know'.

If the Scots decide on using the Pound designation, do they need England's (Brittan's) permission?

Does England have the name 'Pound' registered as an international trademark, or do they have any international copyright holdings on it's use?

Couldn't Scotland just designate the name of their currency as 'The Pound', without having to be beholden to the Bank of England, or any other British financial system or institution for that matter?

I don't recall the Australians needing or asking America's permission to use the 'Dollar' back 45+ years ago, which as far as I know is also based on the decimal system, but similar in name only.

The Australian currency, for all that I know, isn't beholden to Americas Federal Reserve Bank or System, or guaranteed by the American Dollar.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #272 – 2014-09-14, 23:01:38

ell you would well fit the Yes campaign Sanguinemoon because you are only repeating what someone else has said so don't try and fool that you were clever enough to work that out yourself. At one of the big four annual orange Celebrations for the 12th July a Labour MP agreed to be the speaker on the platform because the Order was well into the No space. The parade through Edinburgh after the public speeches took 2 hours to pass and was more than double the size what the Brigadoon sensationalists mustered. To the rest of we adults here as well figured out most people have already made their minds up a time ago and only a small percentage are don't know people. The thinking amongst us do know Belfrager about the economic side and independence is a frightful disaster waiting. A supervisor in my supermarket cafe had a chat with me due to my No badge and she is for Yes. She came out with that utter stupidity the SNP leader came out with. That one that said Scots never get the government UK-wise they vote for. I told her the answer I gave here that since WW2 Scotland had voted Conservative twice and there was a UK government and 8 times voted Labour and we got them in Westminster. It was a typical lie of Salmond's and she was just repeating what he said and when I illustrated the historical fact she wouldn't take it on board! I found the same on other points so too many of that lot just repeat in parrot fashion what he says and that is Gospel. I know a lot of people can be barren on practical mentality but didn't know was so wide spread.

Even the tiny Communist Party had a stall out in the city centre supporting the UK! When Salmond was pursued by the media on what a former Deputy Leader of the SNP said on tv about how on a Yes vote they would go after oil people and companies who were No minded. He was quite bitter and arrogant about it. Did Salmond apologise? Nope, instead he gave a flowery answer. The Yes lot have been very strident and goes beyond the normal political skirmish style. Threatening speakers, defacing No posters, etc and harrying. Now they want to have local "freedom marches" on polling stations? Kind of intimidation. I keep my strong emotions for the women in my life but the Nationalists seem incapable of not wallowing in nostalgic emotion rather than common sense.

SmileyFaze.

Your queries on currency are something that have been argued about here. The situation is that the SNP claims they would still have a pound as their currency but want to be linked to the Bank of England. Now that is daft because if Scotland was independent it would be at the mercy of a foreign bank - namely Bank of england which would set rates no matter what was wanted north of the border. Such an idea would avoid the separatists having a central bank to ensure they don't have a financial collapse so the SNP wants to be "free" but link to another country's bank?? I have already stated in these forums that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has categorically stated that an independent Scotland would NOT be allowed to be with the Bank of england and the two main opposition parties at Westminster have totally agreed with this stance. The SNP claims they are all bluffing so how stupid is that and the fact that Yes supporters simply agree with him.

The alternative would be to have a currency called a "pound" but not being with the Bank of England would leave matters open for a different value. On top of the fiasco from the nationalist they have threatened that in an independent state they would refuse to pay their share of the National Debt. That in turn leaves Scotland in a bad position where international monetary people would see it as a bad debtor. New countries to EEC (which Scotland would be) would get stuck with that messed up Euro only adding to the woes. I value my income and savings so No makes more sense.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #273 – 2014-09-14, 23:14:40

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-09-15, 11:01:38

The alternative would be to have a currency called a "pound" but not being with the Bank of England would leave matters open for a different value. On top of the fiasco from the nationalist they have threatened that in an independent state they would refuse to pay their share of the National Debt. That in turn leaves Scotland in a bad position where international monetary people would see it as a bad debtor. New countries to EEC (which Scotland would be) would get stuck with that messed up Euro only adding to the woes. I value my income and savings so No makes more sense.

So, say if they use their North Atlantic Oil Holdings as backing for their own 'Independent Pound', that's not viable either?

I think those holdings would be quite a formidable security guarantee, & easily back Scotland's own currency.

As far as any National Debt, those debts would become totally negotiable upon Independance.

An Independent Scotland need not refuse to pay up-front. No -- upon Independence all they
would need to do is say that the issue is pending renegotiation, & as long as it's pending,
no monies need be paid until the outcome of the said negotiations become definitive ---
even if those negotiations somehow drag on for 500 years!

The only recourse England & Wales would have is to militarily invade Scotland, & attach all of Scotland's holdings --
-- which everyone damn well knows won't ever happen.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #274 – 2014-09-14, 23:30:49

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-14, 23:14:40

The only recourse England & Wales would have is to militarily invade Scotland, & absorb all of Scotland's holdings ---- which won't ever happen.

Smiley--- don't you read history books at all? Seems I remember reading once before England did invade Scotland.

Poll

Should Scotland be an independent country?