The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Topic: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time (Read 98376 times)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #200 – 2014-08-26, 10:54:37

The question of the Scottish currency remains a problem, but Salmond mislead the Scottish voters. I will explain.

First I should say that Luxor is probably right about Scotland having to use the pound in the event that the “Yes” vote won, but the matter is rather convoluted, so bear with me.

The SNP/Yes campaign doggedly maintains that a Currency Union will be agreed with the UK in spite of all three political parties saying it is a no-starter. There are many reasons for the latter, one major one being the additional risk to the UK due to the statements in the so-called "SNP White Paper" (it's an SNP manifesto (Paid for by the Scottish Taxpayer) which is used to sell the SNP vision of a separated Scotland) which declares that Scotland would have a Currency Union with the UK.

The "options/choices" are given in Currency Choices for an Independent Scotland, subdivided into groups headed "Set Up New Currency" and "Monetary Union with the UK". For the latter, there are two options, "Formal" and "Informal (i.e. Sterlingisation)"; the former choice is a currency union, the latter not a union at all, Scotland would just use the pound but in Sterlingisation mode.

The SNP assumes for the former choice; "BoE undertakes monetary policy for Sterling Area (i.e. interest rates determined by conditions in Scotland and rUK)" and also "Full fiscal autonomy – alongside other economic levers (e.g. regulation)" amongst other implausible claims. These powers are clearly not remotely possible. Foreign countries do not set their interest rates according to the whims of foreign countries 1/10th their size nor do they permit such a foreign country full fiscal autonomy. There is also the implicit assumption that the Bank of England would act as a lender of last resort, an arrangement where the UK would carry a large risk of default and Scotland would have no control over monetary policy. So no Currency Union.

So that leaves the use of the Pound in a Sterlingisation mode. This is certainly possible although it cannot be called a Monetary Union and, again, Scotland would have no control over monetary policy in spite of the SNP claim that it would have, again, “full fiscal autonomy”. But it could be done, with it’s attendant lack of monetary control for Scotland. However the UK would no longer be the lender of last resort; not a attractive prospect for business or, in particular, Scotland’s large financial sector which is already showing signs of leaving Scotland in the event of a “Yes” vote.

The other options, under the banner “Set up new currency”, are apparently not available to the SNP without a new Scottish Election. The SNP states (my underline);

“Of course some would prefer Scotland to become a republic, to leave the EU or NATO, or to have our own currency. After Scotland becomes independent, any political party seeking to make these kinds of changes would first have to win support to do so in an election.”.

https://www.snp.org/sites/default/files/issue/documents/yes_-_choice.pdf bottom of page X

So this option is not open to the SNP to propose, but they are pretending it is an option.

These things have to be resolved before March 2016 and the lack of any clear decision now is potentially very damaging to the Scottish Economy. It seems that the only real option (with its own downsides) is to have a new currency in place by Independence but since this would need an election followed by a large effort to set up the different institutions. (*) I doubt if the SNP could stomach that because it is by no means certain that they would win re-election.

So when Salmond stated that he had 3 Plan Bs for the price of 1, he was grossly misleading. He knows full well that the only option he will eventually offer is Sterlingisation, not a currency or monetary union nor a new currency, but use of another countries currency without a lender of last resort.

(*) rjh please note that and pass it on - I doubt many have noticed that.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #201 – 2014-08-26, 12:04:41

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-25, 22:37:13

Oh and here in Glasgow you were going to storm into the city Chambers

Was I? Christ! I know my memory isn't what it used to be, but I would have thought that I would remember that, I can't even remember getting on the bus. Best check my diary, maybe I made a note of it in there.

Nope nothing in there. Or do you mean that the SNP were going to do that? Why should I care, I'm not in the SNP. Said it before and I'll say it again. Voting for independence is not a vote for the SNP. But your so blinded by your hatred of the SNP you can't see that.

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-25, 22:38:59

How worse can it get for you Brigadoon

Brigadoon only exists in your head I fear. At least something goes on in there.

Quote from: string on 2014-08-26, 11:08:10

I know the arguments on both sides well enough by now so could gather roughly what they were talking about but there was so much over-talking that it was impossible at times to tell what was being said. Salmond was definitely the champion over-talker though.

It could have done with a better presenter that's for sure. He just let them shout at each other when he should have intervened.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #202 – 2014-08-26, 12:44:48

Currency unions tend to be short-lived. A UK union would be the sensible short-term option, but longer-term a Scottish currency would likely be a more sensible option, better than joining £ or € (or the Norwegian kroner for that matter, but The North European Petrodollar is a scheme that wouldn't happen in real life). Much smaller economies than the Scottish have managed that just fine.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #203 – 2014-08-26, 13:13:06

Quote from: jax on 2014-08-26, 12:44:48

Currency unions tend to be short-lived. A UK union would be the sensible short-term option, but longer-term a Scottish currency would likely be a more sensible option, better than joining £ or € (or the Norwegian kroner for that matter, but The North European Petrodollar is a scheme that wouldn't happen in real life). Much smaller economies than the Scottish have managed that just fine.

There is so much that has been written about a potential Scottish/UK currency union, but I won't bore you with a multitude of links. Suffice it to say that, as a general rule;

o A monetary Union will only work if it is perceived to be committed to by all parties and is long term/permanent
o A monetary union only works with fiscal integration (ref the EURO Countries)[/li][/list]

There is no knowing how long the Scots would want the Currency Union to last, so it would not last.

In the case of Scotland and the UK
o The UK would stand large risks which would not be reciprocated by Scotland who would not be contributing (no insurance payments in other words)
o Scotland would have no say over interest rates and liquidity and would have no monetary weapons in the event of a change in oil prices
o Scotland would have to accept the UK's control over its own budget and expenditure (as per the Euro)

Remember that Scotland is only about a 10th of the size of the UK.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #204 – 2014-08-26, 18:57:47

Now just look at that very direct keech from Luxor who avoids the point and falls back on, well nothing. His mob went about before the last Council Elections gleefully stating they were going to take over Scotlabd's biggest Council. They tried to use the temporary small split in the labour adminstration.There was to be no problem taking the city said the cock-a-hoop nationalists. If Luxor didn't know that he is either brainless or retreats to smart arse rhetoric. Instead the Nationalisst failed and some of us were involved in making sure of that one. The hit back was spread across the country as I correctly did point out before that in Councils all sorts of coalitions were formed between labour, Tory, LibDems to keep your Brigadoon mindsets out and it was frustrating for the poor Salmondites. As for the NHS costs, again what Luxor does is spout Nationalist propganda in a two-sided, obvious debate. He also totally ignores that the SNP Government DID use Private Health and I have no problem with the NHS doing that in england, Scotland, Wales, Ulster as it still does not effect the patient at all. So Salmond did lie mouthing of what the NHS did in England when the same NHS up here in his control did the same thing!

Nice of tt92 to put his twopence worth in and try to dismiss me with my satorical cry of 'No surrender.' On this occasion it was on the matter of not giving into the rampant, over emotional rubbish from nationalist. Kif of hypocritical anyway of him commenting when you consider the level of nationalism in the ex-colonies and people still arguing over a bit of paper cobbled together in the 19th century.

String has a definite point on economy. Now Salmond includes a wide choice of currency matters including Scotland voting on which one in a Yes situation. He cannot compete with the main fact that keeping Scotland connected to the Bank of England would leave an independent county unable to plan properly with a foreign country deciding your rates, etc. As for lurking behind the SNP is a keeping mum republican element. For all Salmond's front regarding the system and Head of State he fine well knows there is a strong republican bent in the SNP. However they are being two-faced and keeping their mouths shut during the Referendum Campaign as they know only too well votes would be lost by coming out. Now that is a damnable hypocrisy for a lot who claim the moral high ground and principled politics.

We need no lessons from across the pond where trying to break leads to war. Neither is it a democracy in the meaning of the word. For the most part day to day the campaign has been reasonable (we can leave the internet nutters in their corner as a minorty). What I would say is the tev commentators talk a load of old midden saying it is being talked about everywhere. No it isn't and people act just as they do in a General election and keep generally zipped. It is the same with all this nonsense about people saying they need more facts and so on. Where the deuce are they living? Nightly on television, constant programmes to the point of boring. One worker interviewed said the right thing. His comment was he would be glad when the whole blooming thing was over. Most reasonables on both sides are probably thinking the same. It includes me so I can get on with my victory holiday!

ps Glass has Irn Bru in it.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #205 – 2014-08-26, 20:05:07

Hey whoa there rjh, Luxor said he was not a member of SNP, so maybe he didn't vote for them either, save your ammunition, or are you just practicing?

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #206 – 2014-08-27, 00:37:04

Eh? Come on now string you are not a nutjob from over the pond!

May I remind you that the NO Campaign includes Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat Parties. The party which produced the Bill to go through the Edinburgh Parliament was the SNP - along with 2 Greens so that lot of sandal wearers don't count for anything. So it was an SNP thing and only they could pruce the thing. So you are trying to be fait in a non-starter thing and I am surprised at you. There would be no Referendum but for them and he has to support them to try for independence as there is NO alternative. No SNP and there would be no damn Referendum. Tut, tut.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #207 – 2014-08-27, 00:49:59

@String @Mr. Howie @Luxor: Have any of you come across a video of the debate? For those of us watching the going-ons from elsewhere, it'd be interesting to see this Salmond character in his debate form.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #208 – 2014-08-27, 00:56:43

Not sure where you would get a copy although it was repeated on other channels. Briefly would say this. Maybe the BBC catch up thing might help (and the STV one re the first show.

Darling the NO man exceeded Salmond on the STV Debate. On the second by the BBC Scotland, Salmond caught up a bit after being drubbed the first time. To be blunt I don't think either show made much of a difference to be frankly honest as most have already made up their minds.

ps. At least we have been peaceful and separatists didn't have to wear (nice) grey uniforms.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #209 – 2014-08-27, 08:23:01

General, Sir!

Google :

tv debate Scotland youtube

and you will find the debates and be able to enjoy the charming Mr Salmond.

It is said that Salmond "won" the debate.

It depends what the criteria for winning are I suppose. Note the (coached) advances towards the audience.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #210 – 2014-08-27, 08:27:27

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-27, 00:37:04

Eh? Come on now string you are not a nutjob from over the pond!

May I remind you that the NO Campaign includes Labour, Conservative, Liberal Democrat Parties. The party which produced the Bill to go through the Edinburgh Parliament was the SNP - along with 2 Greens so that lot of sandal wearers don't count for anything. So it was an SNP thing and only they could pruce the thing. So you are trying to be fait in a non-starter thing and I am surprised at you. There would be no Referendum but for them and he has to support them to try for independence as there is NO alternative. No SNP and there would be no damn Referendum. Tut, tut.

I try to be objective and fair, although I admit both are difficult in this area.

Please check your PMs.

There are many who are inclined to vote Yes who are members of other parties, even Conservatives, it would not surprise me at all if Luxor was one of them if not the latter, especially as he said so. But he can speak for himself.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #211 – 2014-08-27, 12:27:28

You know, I could hope the "Yes" vote wins for one reason. That reason is to watch RJH go completely bonkers the day after the election. I could imagine him loading his last suitcase on the moving van the day after the election and heading South of the border just as fast as he can.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #212 – 2014-08-27, 12:29:44

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-26, 19:57:47

His mob

Oh there you go again "My mob". Just who exactly is my mob?
You think you know, but the reality is you don't know. The fact that people who have nothing to do with the SNP (or the greens since you mention them) might actually be voting yes to independence, must come as an awful shock to you. It's a referendum not the end of the world, don't get so het up about it. Could be the end of the empire though, but that's no big loss.

Quote from: string on 2014-08-26, 21:05:07

Hey whoa there rjh, Luxor said he was not a member of SNP, so maybe he didn't vote for them either

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-08-27, 01:49:59

Have any of you come across a video of the debate?

Saw a couple on youtube but they were quickly removed. If you can view BBC content (there are ways I believe) it's available there. Linky

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #213 – 2014-08-27, 21:34:35

Quote from: Luxor on 2014-08-27, 12:29:44

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-08-27, 01:49:59
Have any of you come across a video of the debate?

Saw a couple on youtube but they were quickly removed. If you can view BBC content (there are ways I believe) it's available there. Linky

That above link is only good in the UK, & I'm to busy to switch my Satellite VPN Tunnel just to view a video, so.........

I just searched youtube & here is what I found (Free for all the world to watch courtesy of America's C-SPAN):

[VIDEO]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2_wKQilX5s[/VIDEO]

I hope that was the right one.

BTW.....JFYI.....I watched snips here & there throughout the debate, & as I see it Darling tried to mute (unsuccessfully IMHO) Salmond's message & responses with persistent over-talking & interruptions. Salmond held his own quite well irregardless of Darlings vain attempts. It seams Darling really didn't want the Scottish people to hear what Salmond had to say -- & would prefer to use interruptive over-talk, rather than debate the facts respectfully & on their true merits ---- IMHO, based on what I saw.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #214 – 2014-08-27, 23:56:39

Waffle from snarling Luxor!There would be no Referendum but for the SNP and I see no need to go on repeating. On a more important matter, Salmond is still bouncing about on the cirrency matter. Come hell or high water he will still be linked to the UK on that he says. Now how dashed silly is that one when he has been repeatedly told by the opposition that is NOT going to happen. Instead he expects folk to believe finances will be okay and simply ignores the obvious. Thrown in no central bank and it is even more ludicrous. He even goes on to say that in a Yes win he would then ask the people what they want for currency? He does everything but ignore the truth that there will be no sharing. The other daftness is him claiming that staying with the Bank of england is the right way. How insulting to intelligence. How can an independent Scotland be so when it has to be told by a foreign bank rates, etc? At the same time the Scots Fnance Secretary in a debate with the head of the Better Together side says that if they don't get a shared currency then they won't pay their share of the debt. What a brilliant start that will be. Him and Salmond need to get together and stop acting like Laurel and Hardy.

Recently when the NO Campaign had to close donations as they had reached the limit permitted by the Electoral Commission the SNP moaned that inbetween piles of small donations No had got big ones. Interesting that throwaway as the SNP got 2 donations of half a million each from a couple who won the Lottery.

Anyway will be in Edinburgh for the Unionist rally which will as it did the last time they were out actually outnumber the SNP lot! The flag flies proudly out my home and will still have a holiday the day after to celebrate the NO side. Will before I go have a glass of (diet) Irn Bru before I am away!

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #215 – 2014-08-28, 11:39:29

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-28, 00:56:39

Waffle from snarling Luxor!

People in glass houses etc.

See you couldn't answer my question as to who my "mob" are. Just as I thought, no idea.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #216 – 2014-08-28, 12:14:35

When the referendum?

I'm sorry but I see no place for the Scottish representative. There are people already standing waiting for a seat.
Better to postpone the independence.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #217 – 2014-08-28, 12:22:50

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-28, 13:14:35

When the referendum?

The 18th of September.

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-08-28, 13:14:35

Better to postpone the independence.

Too late, the postal votes are out.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #218 – 2014-08-28, 18:00:06

Quote from: Luxor on 2014-08-28, 11:39:29

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-08-28, 00:56:39
Waffle from snarling Luxor!

People in glass houses etc.
See you couldn't answer my question as to who my "mob" are. Just as I thought, no idea.

Probably thinks you are an American.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #219 – 2014-08-28, 18:59:15

Actually, it's his 'meaningless man' syndrome & his excessive paranoia.

It's himself, & his Borscht Buddy Vlad up against the rest of the big, bad, evil world nipping at their heals.

Two totally misunderstood souls lost at sea, a treacherous sea of evildoers.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #220 – 2014-08-28, 22:27:17

Well I feel i should listen to you tt92 on the matter of glasshouse thinking. After all you live in a land were so-called rights and freedoms are being eroded al the time. Hypocrisy champion of the world.So I do regard your experience on that subject as you are living with it. The trouble is no-one comes closer to the land of ex-colonists. And on the subject of the referendum on separation you try it over there and one has no chance.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #221 – 2014-08-30, 02:51:51

Thank you to all who posted the links and suggestions about watching the debate.

@Mr. Howie:

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #222 – 2014-08-30, 03:47:45

That's what you think, and that's what I think, but Mr. Howie knows better.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #223 – 2014-08-30, 19:05:33

Well, no true Scotsman would lie...

(And -I'm sure tt92 would agree- Howie's too young to claim serious lapses of memory!)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #224 – 2014-08-30, 21:11:53

I hadn't heard that Australia is dumping freedoms. In fact, they're free-er than the United States is supposed to be, last I heard. Further, Aussie military might seems mostly defensive, I don't think they're trying to push their brand of politics anywhere beyond their borders.

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