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Topic: The Decline of Religion in Europe (Read 66379 times)

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #25 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Hmmmmmmm.............. Nope, didn't do it. Gotta blame somebody else for that one.

Short of historical memory you seem to be. Or perhaps just ignorant about your roots.

I don't see how one's denomination can be called "roots". Religion involves conversion, in most views essentially so. On some doctrines, it involves "renewal of faith" or "consecration" every day, continuously. So, religion is not roots. Religion is disentanglement from "the first man Adam" who is not letting go, just like roots.

Those who never converted don't know properly what religion is. Just like those who never travelled don't know properly the value of home. And those who never compared two philosophical systems side by side don't know properly what philosophy is.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #26 –
Quote from: ersi on
I don't see how one's denomination can be called "roots". Religion involves conversion, in most views essentially so. On some doctrines, it involves "renewal of faith" or "consecration" every day, continuously. So, religion is not roots. Religion is disentanglement from "the first man Adam" who is not letting go, just like roots.

As a non religious you don't understand how religion is part of culture and heritage. Culture and heritage are your roots.
You can't speak about what you don't know. No one is speaking about philosophy but about religion. In religion there are not "some doctrines".
Quote from: ersi on

Those who never converted don't know properly what religion is. Just like those who never travelled don't know properly the value of home. And those who never compared two philosophical systems side by side don't know properly what philosophy is.

In religion either you are part of one or you don't count, simple as that. And if you're part of one, you'll defend your roots. This is not for the newly converted, those have a long, long way to go. Again you're confusing religion with philosophy, religion is not a philosophical system.
It can have a huge component of philosophy as in Catholicism but you will not find it anywhere else.
Anyway, it's never restricted to a philosophical system, Catholicism is the only that tries to combine faith and reason and does it for two thousand years long.

There I know there is no religion for people like you (and you can forget the Buddhist mambo jumbo, it's probably the worst of all).
Maybe you can found (in the sense of creating) one ersi, good luck with that.
I'll stick to my own. To my roots.

Just one more thing about "renewal of faith" everyday. At the Catholic light it doesn't mean "or" it means "also". Not only you carry your roots as you keep on "renewing it" by way of a living certainty and passion emulated into the love of Our Lord. It means a desire of fusion where past (roots) present (faith and reason) and future (hope and joy) turns one.
That's it.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #27 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

As a non religious you don't understand how religion is part of culture and heritage.
Culture and heritage are your roots.

As a person described "conservative" and "traditional" where I live, I understand culture and heritage very well. Thus I understand roots very well. It so happens that (Christian) religion never took root in this country.

Quote from: Belfrager on

In religion either you are part of one or you don't count, simple as that. And if you're part of one, you'll defend your roots.

When we talk about culture and heritage, I see what you mean. When about religion, it doesn't even begin to make sense.

Quote from: Belfrager on

Again you're confusing religion with philosophy, religion is not a philosophical system.

If religion is not a philosophical system, how is it possible for me to confuse them?

Quote from: Belfrager on

It can have a huge component of philosophy as in Catholicism but you will not find it anywhere else.

Not in Islam? (Avicenna, Averroes, Ghazali) Not in Buddhism? Are these religions not well-known for their cosmologies, calendars, metaphysics, engineerial landmarks and inventions? I have made years of comparative study of religions. They all had an inherent philosophy. The philosophy going along with Christianity is the most meager one, practically non-existent when we consider only the scriptures.

Quote from: Belfrager on

There I know there is no religion for people like you (and you can forget the Buddhist mambo jumbo, it's probably the worst of all).
Maybe you can found (in the sense of creating) one ersi, good luck with that.

For me, religion is spirituality is mysticism. For everybody else it's the church they go to on Sundays (or, more often, they don't go). And I can name a number of Catholic authors who are with me on this.

Quote from: Belfrager on

Just one more thing about "renewal of faith" everyday. At the Catholic light it doesn't mean "or" it means "also". Not only you carry your roots as you keep on "renewing it" by way of a living certainty and passion emulated into the love of Our Lord. It means a desire of fusion where past (roots) present (faith and reason) and future (hope and joy) turns one.
That's it.

The "renewal of faith every day" is a distinctly Protestant (evangelist, revivalist) thing that makes their spirits low because they are not accomplishing it. I wanted your response on it more than on any other point. I will bring it up again some other day/year.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #28 –
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by
the rulers as useful

~adolf hitler

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #29 –
Quote from: Sparta on

Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by
the rulers as useful

~adolf hitler


Certainly not Adolf Hitler. Probably not Seneca the Younger either. Wikiquote, that sources their quotes, unlike the quotes found most elsewhere on the Internet, fingers Edward Gibbon.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #30 –
When he likes Adolf more, who are you to try to change that?

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #31 –
Quote from: ersi on
As a person described "conservative" and "traditional" where I live, I understand culture and heritage very well. Thus I understand roots very well. It so happens that (Christian) religion never took root in this country.

As I said, you're not religious.
Quote from: ersi on
When we talk about culture and heritage, I see what you mean. When about religion, it doesn't even begin to make sense.

It reinforces the same answer above.
Quote from: ersi on
If religion is not a philosophical system, how is it possible for me to confuse them?

Er... not to much smart? :)
Quote from: ersi on
Not in Islam? (Avicenna, Averroes, Ghazali) Not in Buddhism? Are these religions not well-known for their cosmologies, calendars, metaphysics, engineerial landmarks and inventions? I have made years of comparative study of religions. They all had an inherent philosophy. The philosophy going along with Christianity is the most meager one, practically non-existent when we consider only the scriptures.

Forget all that.
About Christianity, you're confusing Protestants and their basic level of understanding that makes them to stick to endless repetitions of texts (scriptures) they don't understand. Like Children babbling the first letters they can't have any idea about what a parabole is about.

Scriptures are an interesting theme because it must have "intemporality" the same time being understandable for each and all  generations.
First you need to understand all the theologian system adjacent to it.

There are a few relevant Protestant theologians but none of them are known to anyone in this forum. From the German branch of Protestants, certainly not the Americans.

By the way, part of my heritage and roots are from the great Islam poets and philosophers. That's why we are so special.
Quote from: ersi on
For me, religion is spirituality is mysticism. For everybody else it's the church they go to on Sundays (or, more often, they don't go). And I can name a number of Catholic authors who are with me on this.

Yes that's true what you say. But in this forum I don't discuss that, I stick for the more "mundane" aspects of religion.
Quote from: ersi on
The "renewal of faith every day" is a distinctly Protestant (evangelist, revivalist) thing that makes their spirits low because they are not accomplishing it. I wanted your response on it more than on any other point. I will bring it up again some other day/year.

No no no. That I can't allow you to say it.
"renewal of faith every day" is what I said, if you want to make propaganda to ignorants babbling the Bible and call it ""renewal of faith" you'll be entirely out of scope. Forget the actual protestant sects and analyze Lutero and Calvino, they are the only ones that matters. And what they did is not a matter of religion but finding a way of promoting the bourgeois born without nobility rights but having the money for financing nobility and kings. That's what Protestantism is about, capitalism.

Yours truly Catholic, Belfrager :)
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #32 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
That's what Protestantism is about, capitalism.

Is this good or bad?  I guess it depends on what the idea of 'happiness on earth' is to you.  After all, many culturally Catholic countries such as your Portugal, and Spain--not to mention almost all Latin American nations--have lagged behind other Western nations in terms of economic development and hence, individual well being.  I saw a lot of poverty and misery in Latin America when I was there as a youth (early 60s), and I saw a lot of devout Catholics who used their religion to compensate for their otherwise meager existence.  Religion helps groups of people and even whole nations cope with misery of one sort or another.  The Protestants saw Capitalism as a state of mind which subordinated, tradition, customs, emotions, myth etc, but more than that it made them happy--and yet still, devoutly religious.  If one has to be miserable in their life on earth to qualify religiously to go on and  live for another 10 trillion billion years (maybe), then that religion is going to lose out to another religion where one can have the best of both worlds.   :knight:  :cheers:

James J

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #33 –
Are we -any of us- going to discuss morality? If religion can't "win" in this forum (the discussion of morality, I specify for the usual suspects) it is done…

[But not, of course, on this silly putty pub of a "discussion board"… I mean, world-wide.}

Europe's problems are soon to be America's. We may be able to fend them off for decades; but we haven't secured our (philosophical, theological) positions very well — that is, they will likely collapse when a "critical mass" of Mohammedans gains political power, and the hated by Islamists of democracy is used to destroy democracy.

Some -like Howie are just gutter-snipes. But serious people in GB and on the Continent are worse…

The U.S. is probably -once again- the last best hope.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #34 –
I recently read a reasoned, erudite book predicting the future of the present century.
Dammit, I can't remember its title or author and attempts to google it have failed.
One of the book's more surprising and convincing arguments was that the U.S.A. would shrink as its southern end would be absorbed by Mexico.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #35 –
Don't know the book you refer to… But the prognostication is way off: Mexican immigrants (…mostly illegal) are swamping our states, from Wisconsin to Washington — and all points south!
It is not the southwestern states and Texas… It is every state in the union (excepting, perhaps, Hawaii and Alaska).
[I mentioned that Noodle Island -East Boston, where I went to grade school at the used-to-be venerable James Otis Elementary School- was, the last time I checked, being pestered by MS13…?
This was more than a decade ago!]
The cultural differences are more than a little difficult to bridge. And the publican class is okay with that! (The Democrats, mostly; but far too many Republicans, too.) The U.S. will not "sink" into Mexico, state by state from proximity. It will fail to assimilate Mexicans…and will become, whole-cloth, another Mexico — unless saner heads prevail.
Where will Mexico send its unwanted, then? :(
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #36 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
The U.S. will not "sink" into Mexico, state by state from proximity. It will fail to assimilate Mexicans…and will become, whole-cloth, another Mexico — unless saner heads prevail.
Where will Mexico send its unwanted, then? :(

It was a time when Europe sent its unwanted over the pond and look what they've build up.
So, don't underestimate Mexicans.  :devil:

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #37 –
Shrink.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #39 –
Quote from: Belfrager on

That's what Protestantism is about, capitalism.

Right. More generally: the choice between letting someone else tell you about the truth and finding it on your own.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #40 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
The U.S. is probably -once again- the last best hope.

You really believe on that... that's what intrigues me. It really does... I think it only can be explained for too much immersion into cultural blindness.
Quote from: jseaton2311 on
Is this good or bad?

Good question jseaton and I think you're asking in good faith. I think it means the old saying "selling the soul to the devil".
A nation and a people that has the courage to be poor will be invincible. That you can believe.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #41 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
A nation and a people that has the courage to be poor will be invincible.
I think you meant invisible… :)
But what has courage to do with being poor? A vow of poverty is meant to focus one's attention on salvation, for a religious. The laity don't "vow" to be poor, they either are or aren't; and if they are they are either resigned or ambitious.
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #42 –
Some choose poverty while others choose wine.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #43 –
Quote from: Belfrager on
Good question jseaton and I think you're asking in good faith. I think it means the old saying "selling the soul to the devil".
A nation and a people that has the courage to be poor will be invincible. That you can believe.

I also do not see the connection between poverty, courage and heaven.  I believe you are misinterpreting Luke 18:24-25 because, coupled with Matthew 6:21, the Bible seems to be saying that if your heart is more in your earthly treasures than in heavenly salvation, it would indeed be hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.  By theological interpretation, material wealth is not necessarily selling your soul to the devil, nor is it cause for exclusion from heaven.  It certainly would be sanctimonious of the Catholic Church to require poverty for salvation when by itself, it is the richest enterprise on Earth.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #44 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
Don't know the book you refer to… But the prognostication is way off: Mexican immigrants (…mostly illegal) are swamping our states, from Wisconsin to Washington — and all points south!

I'm not sure what swamping means (overkill?), but god bless our Mexican friends for doing the jobs that the rest of us have chosen not to do...and more. Is farm work important to the country? Who would pick the lettuce and tomatoes I just ate in a sandwich? They mow lawns in the community where I live, shovel snow in the winter...basically, do the jobs that citizens largely don't want. If the shrubs that line the parkway leading from the commercial part of the city to our community needs tending, most of the work is done by citizens who receive better wages.

If the job is being let by a government, one with better wages, it will be done by citizens. If the job is one that pays so poorly that citizens won't take it, it's likely to be done by an illegal.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #46 –
The vulgarity on this site is getting worse every day.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #47 –
He finally reads his own posts..
A matter of attitude.

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #48 –
Yeah, just now.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: The Decline of Religion in Europe

Reply #49 –
I for one, am proud that we Americans can help our dear friend Belfrager each and every day.
That we can provide such a service as to absorb all of his intense and immense dislike for us all I think is commendable.

Well done, fellow Americans.  :cheers:


/Waits for Belfrager to petition the admins/mods to kick us out (not totally unlike Europe's masters are trying to kick Greece out  ;) :D  )