Skip to main content ↑ ↓
Topic: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.  (Read 34822 times)

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #100 –
I stand corrected.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #101 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
When someone makes a BS charge against someone else-- expect to get called out on it. In this case, JSeaton employed the now-travel worn device of charging somebody who doesn't agree with him that transexuals are the best thing since sliced bread with a terrible crime. At least last time I checked most people agree that genocide is terrible, anyway. A real nice shut-up, wouldn't you say? So-- I called him out. Still no documentation. Gee, I wonder why.

Had I known you were in such a tizzy over this mjm, I would have responded earlier.  But as it is, I have a life and a rather full and rich life in my estimation, and I don't always come rushing back here every 10 minutes to see if someone has responded to a comment of mine...besides it was Father's Day weekend and Monday was...well just Monday. 

A 'snappy genocide' could only occur in one's mind--I thought you might have picked up on that.  I should have been more clear by calling it a 'snappy mental genocide'.  You can pretend these people don't exist and blot them out of your mind; you can believe like ersi that there is a nefarious "homosexual agenda" of sorts, or like some conservatives you may believe that gay freedom is a “zero-sum game,” meaning that if LGBT community achieves equal treatment under the law, you will lose some of it.  Believe what you will, but these people are NOT going away, nor should they.  Clearly some people here, certainly not all, are angry, afraid or simply freaked out by the LGBT movement.

I find it hard to believe that in 2015, qualified and hardworking Americans are denied job opportunities, promotions, fired or otherwise discriminated against simply because they are LGBT.  These people simply want to be judged on their work, not fired for their sexual orientation.  (Side note: I asked a lady friend of mine if she thought that it was right to fire people because they are gay.  She thought for a second before responding, "Not as long as they don't act gay on the job"...I am still reeling with laughter.)  There is no federal law that protects LGBT individuals from employment discrimination (although with ENDA, hopefully there soon will be); in 29 states there is no state law that explicitly prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation and 32 states that do so based on gender identity. 

Gays are demonized by many "Christian" groups who make it seem as if the end of days were approaching with their description of gay marriage as “an assault on the foundations of our society.”  The institution of marriage has long been crumbling all by itself without the assistance of LGBTs.  At this point I find in interesting to note that in your comments, you seem to feel that gays cannot be mothers and fathers, and that the mere "act" of making a baby makes you a father.  You have a very odd definition of what makes a man a real father.  Simply because these people can't, or choose not to bear children doesn't mean they can't be good mothers or fathers by adoption or surrogates. 

Your sensitivities have been irked by what these people do behind closed doors and you have lost sight of the fact that they are otherwise normal people with the same hopes, dreams and aspirations as anyone else.  Other minorities have fought for and won their equal rights and they were quite vocal about it as well.  What do you see that is so different from the plight of these people who for millennia, have had to hide for fear of being beaten, ridiculed, losing their jobs, and all of their resources?   If you actually believe that LGBTs should have rights, why do you perpetuate the stigma and disgrace against them?  

As with all equal rights movements, these people will win theirs, things will settle down and life will simply be business as usual once again.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #102 –
It's better now. I can see some specific things that can be debated - but I still can see accusations on things that haven't been declared on this thread, at least.
"Acting gay", depending on what it means, can really be a big problem. :right:
About "equal rights", I really would like to know specifically which rights aren't equal - hopefully recalling "(basic) human rights".
You hope for a "federal law that protects LGBT individuals from employment discrimination". Well, isn't that discrimination? Shouldn't everybody be protected from employment discrimination? Fighting against discrimination, they are making their own.
On the other hand, employment discrimination is a tricky subject. Why should a private employer be forced by law to choose whatever person to the job? Although I comprehend the unfairness of discrimination based solely on sexual orientation, I find it difficult - and perhaps immoral - to use the law specifically against the freedom of individuals to manage their own businesses.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #103 –
If they practiced it behind closed doors there'd be no problem. The problem is they parade it down Main Street, stand in front of cameras making as big a spectacle of themselves as they can, shouting "LOOK AT ME!!!!" So-- the idea that my nose is out of joint because of what they do behind closed doors isn't exactly accurate.

Now-- about discrimination: Isn't that already against the law? Can a construction company discriminate legally against hiring a LGBTQWERTYUIOP person? Can a law office refuse to hire? I understand certain religious groups DO refuse to hire such--- but there you're dealing with people who hold a whole different belief system, and last time I checked the First Amendment covers free exercise of religious belief.

Note: I half suspect that the real issue is that companies aren't compelled to hire LGBTwhatever people--- that they have to take their chances just like everybody else-- that's not fair!

I still insist: if you're gonna throw around words like "genocide" you'd better be able to prove it--- or realize that you're just throwing feces on the wall to see what sticks. It's a fairly common practice these days with certain groups. "Dare to disagree with me? You are a (insert terrible criminal type here)." No proof that the charge is actually so--- the criminal charge is just a shut-up phrase designed to silence opposition.
What would happen if a large asteroid slammed into the Earth?
According to several tests involving a watermelon and a large hammer, it would be really bad!

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #104 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
The problem is they parade it down Main Street, stand in front of cameras making as big a spectacle of themselves as they can, shouting "LOOK AT ME!!!!" So-- the idea that my nose is out of joint because of what they do behind closed doors isn't exactly accurate.

All minorities have paraded it down Main St. and shouted from the roof tops about being discriminated against.  Women burned their bras to get the attention and media coverage that they wanted--were you offended by that spectacle as well?  As a straight man, I think you may have rather celebrated that spectacle, as did I.  What gays do behind closed doors is not a palatable thought to me personally because I am not built that way, but it is their way of expressing of love and sexuality--are you opposed to sexual love making?--of course not, you just do it with the opposite gender. 

Gays have to fight their civil rights battle against a heterosexual world that finds what they do sexually in the bedroom rather disgusting, but this is not about sex, it is about fairness and equality.  If you can't see that because your mind can't get passed what they do behind closed doors then perhaps you are not as strong minded as I think you are.  Not an insult mjm, I believe that you are simply not addressing the real issue at hand. 

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Now-- about discrimination: Isn't that already against the law? Can a construction company discriminate legally against hiring a LGBTQWERTYUIOP person? Can a law office refuse to hire? I understand certain religious groups DO refuse to hire such--- but there you're dealing with people who hold a whole different belief system, and last time I checked the First Amendment covers free exercise of religious belief.

Note: I half suspect that the real issue is that companies aren't compelled to hire LGBTwhatever people--- that they have to take their chances just like everybody else-- that's not fair!

"ENDA simply affords to all Americans basic employment protection from discrimination based on irrational prejudice. The bill explicitly prohibits preferential treatment and quotas and does not permit disparate impact suits.  In addition, it exempts small businesses, religious organizations and the military."  (From here)  Is this not fair enough for you? 

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
I still insist: if you're gonna throw around words like "genocide" you'd better be able to prove it--- or realize that you're just throwing feces on the wall to see what sticks.

My bad for using the term at all with you--I had a vision of you wiping these people out of your mind and your concern altogether.  I erroneously used the term for effect--you are correct.   :knight: :cheers: 


James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #105 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on
Now-- about discrimination: Isn't that already against the law? Can a construction company discriminate legally against hiring a LGBTQWERTYUIOP person? Can a law office refuse to hire? I understand certain religious groups DO refuse to hire such--- but there you're dealing with people who hold a whole different belief system, and last time I checked the First Amendment covers free exercise of religious belief.

I'm missing something. To do what?

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #106 –
There is unfortunately an awful lot of guff about queers and their rights. They make up a tiny part of the population but constantly rabbit on about "rights", etc. They have the same as everyone else and society has changed. If they get picked out for their stance they can do something about it like any other person, group or whatever. They way they go on you would think they were half the population and go over the top time after time. I wish them no harm as long as they keep away from me. There are political views I will have a stance against and argue the corner but that lot think they are something special and that the world has not moved on. It has even if I don't like some of the direction.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #107 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
I wish them no harm as long as they keep away from me.

And just how are they supposed to do that?  Do you have a restraining order from the court or perhaps you think they are contagious or want to drag you kicking and screaming into their bedrooms?  You/we listen to their music and radio shows, watch their films…buy their clothes and jewelry, let them style our hair and design our homes and offices, but you wouldn't be caught dead having lunch with one would you?  This only narrows your own understanding of our society and these people.  If you don't like what they do behind closed doors then simply don't do what they do--ever thought of that Howie?  You think that LGBTs make too much noise about themselves and yet there is a particular Scottish fellow I know who makes more noise than the whole lot of them put together (and about lesser stuff). 

In the land of the free and home of the BRAVE, we have overcome our fear and repulsion of the LGBT community and they are now embraced by a two-thirds majority of the population (and the Supreme Court).  Our distrust and repulsion of these people comes from what we learned in our youth.  Looking at this issue in today's light and seeing their plight however, shouldn't be too difficult for any normal person--except of course, for the most obstinate and those with no control over their own minds to rise above learned experiences from the past.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #108 –
Careful about that imbraced, James. You'll scare Mr. Howie.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #109 –
Indeed, I almost interjected an apology for using that word...lol.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #110 –

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #111 –
Quote from: Jimbro3738 on
I'm missing something. To do what?
Hm. Someone never took a civics class… Associate freely, freely associate, Jimbro. (It's in the Constitution, somewhere — isn't it? :) )

But — as a few denizens of the web have repeated, endlessly! — You will be made to care…
进行 ...
"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #112 –
Quote from: OakdaleFTL on
But — as a few denizens of the web have repeated, endlessly! — You will be made to care…

There is no need for you to recognize anyone or anything, it's just that so many of you make similar noise about them that you complain about them making.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #113 –
Oh jseaton2311, I am not afraid of them any more than anything else. I am fed up to the teeth with all the ballyhoo they make about rights and so on. On matters of law they have the same position as any minority but you would not think that being such a tiny minority they make so much noise. We have laws here too that have opened up these people to Civil Partnerships and same gender marriages but I am still not going to change my view of them. Neither do I go hunting for them however where they get more rights than others that is a different kettle of fish. If someone does not agree with them all hell is let loose and I am quite happy to take them on!
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #114 –
You are missing the point rj.  This is a group of people--and yes, a small group indeed--who have had to hide, for all time, the truth about themselves.  Being ridiculed, beaten and discriminated against is not anything you or I have ever experienced in the brutal and ruthless manner that they have.  And don't you think that they have been the butt of your bigoted jokes for long enough? 

As with all groups who have had to fight for rights and recognition there are always the wackos that come out and go overboard in their efforts.  This is where people like you (and others on DnD), point the finger and say "see the way these people are!!".  You cannot see (or simply refuse to see) that this is not representative of the way these people are--and this is owing to the fact that you are unwilling/unable to reason long and hard enough to understand them--much less get to know them. 

Knowing the way that you are, naturally you are not going to change your view of LGBTs (or anything else for that matter), it is a pathological quirk embedded deep within your persona rj.  I still rather like you though, as long as I don't take you too seriously.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #115 –
Well I do know actually they have historically a terrible time and I can tell you honestly that I can not go along with what occurred in previous times at all.  When one has a strong view it is in fact tempered by every day matters rather than a blinker. We also had other sadnesses such as slavery for dozens of centuries and even long before our time or yours.

At the same time they are under the same laws as everyone else but to so-called liberal agenda is an odd one and is used or misused. The hard fact of today is they are under the same law as everyone else but act as if they should have some special status and that is not on. In liberal mildsets there is little discussion and instead the standard Homophobia gets raised within seconds and so much for liberalism! At the same time I have no time for Communism but have taken then on publicly so there is a wider picture than they want to pursue. This kind of narow thinking is used elswhere and again isms added.

As for me personally I have like certain political and religious stands have little truck with their small corner but don't campaign for banning or such nonsense. Neither do i have any within my pesonal world..thankfully! If we met we might surprise each other as being more routine than imagined!  :lol:

"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #116 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
As for me personally I have like certain political and religious stands have little truck with their small corner but don't campaign for banning or such nonsense. Neither do i have any within my pesonal world..thankfully! If we met we might surprise each other as being more routine than imagined!   :lol:

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #117 –
 
Quote from: rjhowie on
Well I do know actually they have historically a terrible time and I can tell you honestly that I can not go along with what occurred in previous times at all.  When one has a strong view it is in fact tempered by every day matters rather than a blinker.

Yes, it seems a small matter in the perspective of the rest of the world and much more serious problems facing us today.  For a small minority to raise it's head in the midst of more pressing issues seems out of place and trivial to some.  But let them have their day and try to relate somehow.  If you don't like them or want to understand them then fine, but you have no rationale to impede them or put them down.   :knight:  :cheers:
James J

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #118 –
Bruce/Caitlyn are back.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #119 –
Now on, I'll always post at the last thread of the page.

Bump for the.... what the hell is this about?
A matter of attitude.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #120 –
The hell.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #121 –
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on

This is almost beyond idiotic to even discuss.


Indeed. Genocide is a fairly modern crime category. It came after WWII as a reaction to the Holocaust, and inspired by the Armenian genocide after WWI. The definitions have changed over the years but at no point in time has it meant the killing of fertile people.

No, genocide doesn't mean the killing of genes, but the killing of the tribe. Given the background the focus naturally was on the genocide of ethnic groups, as time passes and we get more cases of humans' inhumanity to humans the definition becomes more general towards the organised destruction of a group of civilians (attacking civilians in general is merely a war crime).

Thus the current International Criminal Court definition has "…any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group…". The systematic eradication of all gay people, or all married people, or all people over 60 would thus not fall under the category of genocide. If robots were to indiscriminately kill all humans that wouldn't be a genocide either, however bad it would be for humans and the human gene pool. On the other hand, if they succeeded there wouldn't be an ICC either, so this would be a non-issue.

A wish for a group to go away isn't genocidal unless the wishing party organised death squads to implement that wish, so it would be better to holster that g-word.

That said, the 3.6% poster was fairly dumb as well. If there was a 3.6% cap to be able to express themselves, almost nobody could. There are less than 3.6% active Christians (there are probably more in the US), active atheists, Muslims of any level of activity, most any interest or belief. Even the loudest of all groups, football fans (or whatever US equivalent), would have problems getting heard.

If media really should reflect the world there would be a lot more gaiety around, and not just that. Media are dominated by people who are most or all of these: rich, powerful, from a rich and powerful family, white, male, 40-60 years old, articulate, opinionated, and media savvy.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #122 –
Quote from: jax on
Media are dominated by people who are most or all of these: rich, powerful, from a rich and powerful family, white, male, 40-60 years old, articulate, opinionated, and media savvy.

Maybe. But according you, only less than 3,6% of people who are most or all of these: rich, powerful, from a rich and powerful family, white, male, 40-60 years old, articulate, opinionated, and media savvy are able to express themselves...
A matter of attitude.

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #123 –
Way less. It is a tiny semi-permeable group of people who dominate media, and a tiny semi-permeable group of people that wields influence in society.

Of course media-by-quota would be a horrible idea. But while some minorities are unremarked, others are not. It's a bit like the Bechtel test. Films that pass the Bechdel test plummet in 2014

Re: Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner and the ridiculousness of religion to cope.

Reply #124 –
Quote from: jax on
and a tiny semi-permeable group of people that wields influence in society.

There's economic influence and there's social influence. The first seems to adapt very well to whatever happens at the social sphere.

Maybe in the USA things are different, I don't know, but I'm very certain that at most European countries there's a group of around 200 families that rules each country for centuries always maintaining their status quo no matter what happens. It's not an entirely closed group, some fall out and some gets in but the number remains around the same.
A matter of attitude.