The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Topic: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time (Read 97922 times)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #325 – 2014-09-19, 05:29:06

Glasgow voted yes, silly hats and all, but the rest of Scotland mostly did not, so Norway wouldn't get a new neighbour after all.

You don't have a successful campaign when even Edinburgh, the would-be capital, voted no 61%-39%, one of the lowest yes votes in the country, barely above the border areas and outlying islands.

Scotland decides [no]

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #326 – 2014-09-19, 06:06:47

I guess it is the time to congratulate Labour and give condolences to Cameron, Scottish separation would mean dominance of the Conservatives in perpetuity, or maybe a little bit shorter.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #327 – 2014-09-19, 06:21:15

The result is a. No vote, preventing disaster for both Scotland and the rest of the UK.

So no non-united UK, Belfrager.
Details here:
www.bbc.com/news/events/scotland-decides/results

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #328 – 2014-09-19, 06:28:11

Quote from: jax on 2014-09-19, 06:06:47

I guess it is the time to congratulate Labour and give condolences to Cameron, Scottish separation would mean dominance of the Conservatives in perpetuity, or maybe a little bit shorter.

No, Jax, that's not true - you should not have paid so much attention to the SNP propaganda; Labour would have won in the UK without the Scottish Vote in all the "Tony Blair" elections. There are many floating voters, including me.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #329 – 2014-09-19, 06:56:51

True, though I stay with the quip 'a little shorter than perpetuity' The British system seems geared towards letting governments hang on a little (or a lot) too long, the first past the post, long terms, and government choosing election date allow them to hang on even years after they have lost their charm.

It doesn't sound much like SNP propaganda, not good one anyway, that their southern brethren should suffer through years of Conservative rulership. In my living memory Conservatives has been a fringe party in Scotland, SNP and Scots generally would presumably prefer Labour in power to the Conservatives. Of course, Scotland would give little boost to Labour if the Scots vote SNP anyway. We'll see next election.

Anyway, that's two referenda done and over with. The first one, ditching the silly first past the post system, was defeated 68%-32%. This one was defeated 55%-45%. We'll see how the third one, leaving the EU, will fare. My guess is a hat trick for conservativism, "we'll keep what we've got, thank you".

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #330 – 2014-09-19, 10:07:40

55% No to 45% Yes.... That's a defeat for an Independent Scotland-- for now.

It occurred to me, as I heard about this on the radio in the van this morning, that next time out just maybe the "Yes" people might smarten up a bit. Imagine what the outcome might have been if they could have voiced an actual plan about what an Independent Scotland would look like, and how, pray tell, they planned to make that happen. As it is they sounded more than a little like the "Occupy" protesters we have here. As many different ideas as there are people to voice them, and no clear idea about what tomorrow would look like if they won.

You know, here in the 1860s we had a bloody war between the North and the South. The Southern states lost the war, but, if they had won they at least had some idea about how to make their government work, what they would use for money, how they would put together an army and navy and so on. The CSA did at least have a working government during their short and rather stormy existence. I don't recall the SNP putting forth any sort of actual plan for the next day if they won independence. They were just sort of hoping it would all sort out somehow.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #331 – 2014-09-19, 10:37:53

mjm . . The SNP did give a plan but unfortunately for their cause there were very real financial problems which they could not resolve and thus discuss. That left them vulnerable to the charges of proposing a risky adventure and refusing to answer the big questions.

I put that as neutrally as I can because I don't want to rehash the whole business. In fact I stayed largely away from discussions in this forum to avoid loosing some friends here. I admit to some lapses, but I did, on the whole, avoid contributing to the vitriol (here).

I dont think the independence thing will surface again for a while, certainly not in my lifetime anyway.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #332 – 2014-09-19, 10:56:12

Quote from: string on 2014-09-19, 06:21:15

So no non-united UK, Belfrager.

You're going to give them all you've been forced to promise at the referendum and much more and it will always mean a less-united kingdom.
Or, probably, you will forget all the promises you made and the independentists will create you such confusion in the streets that will be not pretty to see.

Once-United Kingdom no matter the cosmetics.

Ah, and congratulations to the Yes side. Such results against a campaign of fear and intimidation made Scotland and their People stronger in their way towards the Independence. You were able to make the occupiers to shake in panic. It's just a matter of time.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #333 – 2014-09-19, 11:12:42

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-09-19, 10:56:12

Quote from: string on 2014-09-19, 06:21:15
So no non-united UK, Belfrager.

You're going to give them all you've been forced to promise at the referendum and much more and it will always mean a less-united kingdom.
Or, probably, you will forget all the promises you made and the independentists will create you such confusion in the streets that will be not pretty to see.

Once-United Kingdom no matter the cosmetics.

Ah, and congratulations to the Yes side. Such results against a campaign of fear and intimidation made Scotland and their People stronger in their way towards the Independence. You were able to make the occupiers to shake in panic. It's just a matter of time.

That's rubbish Belgrade, I know you have an anarchic front back & side to you but adopting a federal form of goverment does not result in disunity . . As for "The Occupier" that is merely proxy paranois on your side

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #334 – 2014-09-19, 12:09:08

Well project fear won in the end. Proud of those of us who voted for independence, the rest of them... well not so much.

But I'll get over it.
Those who voted for the status quo, believed they were doing the right thing. I think they will learn in time that they were lied to.
I'll pick myself up and carry on and I will have my revenge on my local MP at the ballot box.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #335 – 2014-09-19, 12:33:25

Quote from: string on 2014-09-19, 11:12:42

adopting a federal form of goverment does not result in disunity . .

You're not the US, you're not Brazil, you're not even Germany, you're the UK and a more federalist oriented organization is not compatible with your until yesterday form of Identity.

It's not Belfrager against Great Britain (that's another story and strictly between me and the English) but what any international analyst, if not engaged to London government, are saying all over the world.
Belgium, Spain and many other country's governments, countries artificially united under certain forms that represents no more the reality, are exulting with the referendum results because it could postpone for a while their disintegration. So it is the EU that can't even deal with the actual ones even less with a myriad of new ones.

Not for long. Nothing can stop the winds of change.
Europe will not win anything with it's total disintegration but how to deny each one's right to self determination? is better together everything you have to say? will not be enough.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #336 – 2014-09-19, 14:12:20

Quote from: jax on 2014-09-19, 05:29:06

Glasgow voted yes, silly hats and all, but the rest of Scotland mostly did not, so Norway wouldn't get a new neighbour after all.

But Edinburgh, the city Howie rags on, went overwhelmingly for "No" Maybe he should consider a move?

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #337 – 2014-09-19, 15:11:00

Bel, maybe a bit of a history lesson is in order. One thing about the way government is done in the UK-- it isn't the way it was done way back when. They've gone through a long line of changes, from the days when kings ruled by divine right to today when they have the form of democratic government they have now. Changing to a more federal system will, at least, be likely to be less bloody than when they tried to make the King listen to Parliament the first few times around.

I guess I have to give the old German socialist I had occasion to work with a point. He said government is an experiment and we keep seeing what works until we hit the right combination. He may be right about it being an experiment, though he was likely wrong about his proposed solution.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #338 – 2014-09-19, 18:04:50

The voices in my head keep telling me that Salmond & gang never expected to get a majority for outright independence ( and they were probably surprised by how close they got ), hence the apparent vagueness. Scaring Westminster into giving them more autonomy was probably the plan all along and by the look of it, that's probably going to happen.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #339 – 2014-09-19, 18:45:55

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2014-09-19, 15:11:00

Bel, maybe a bit of a history lesson is in order.

Indeed, we just have to determine who needs the lesson.

I'm sorry but you are far away from European reality as much as I am from American one. I know perfectly what I'm saying, how the English got scared with the possibility of their United Kingdom to finish (and it has already finished in facto even if not in jure) is something that you don't see everyday and makes the entire continental Europe to smile.

England has turned much more isolated with this result where everyone in Europe sees the result of menaces, a strategy of fear and false promises.

Those speeches, my God... beyond pathetic. "Yes" had a major victory, that you can be sure mjm.
Wait for the next episodes and you'll see that I'm right.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #340 – 2014-09-19, 18:51:28

@Macallan

I can't believe 45% thought that sounded like a good idea. Seemingly bad for both in the long-run, to this ignorant nobody anyway. That at least makes more sense.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #341 – 2014-09-19, 20:04:04

Quote from: ensbb3 on 2014-09-19, 18:51:28

@Macallan

I can't believe 45% thought that sounded like a good idea. Seemingly bad for both in the long-run, to this ignorant nobody anyway. That at least makes more sense.

Many of them probably just had enough of some clowns in London making all the important decisions for them. Many probably feel dominated by the big neighbour in the south. But then again, this whole united kingdom thing started with the king of Scotland becoming king of England ( and Ireland ) as well, not the other way around

Should have told them to vote for English independence

( and don't tell me you wouldn't vote for TX and OK leaving the US

)

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #342 – 2014-09-19, 22:02:53

Quote from: Macallan on 2014-09-19, 15:04:04

this whole united kingdom thing started with the king of Scotland becoming king of England ( and Ireland ) as well, not the other way around

I was thinking that when mjm made his comment but didn't have the time to fact check it so I left it alone. European monarchs get a little confusing for me, they're all related somehow.

Quote from: Macallan on 2014-09-19, 15:04:04

( and don't tell me you wouldn't vote for TX and OK leaving the US )

I'd like to see the day the vote could be taken. Which is why what you said makes more sense to me, I suppose.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #343 – 2014-09-19, 23:02:02

True about the king of Scotland becoming king of England and all. Howsomever, history shows that the Stuarts didn't keep the job long. Had a run-in with Parliament along about the time Charles the First was trying to be the unquestioned King who dare not be disturbed by any Parliamentary shenanigans, and ended up losing his head over the deal. Charles the 2nd got to sit on the throne for a while but not long, and the throne eventually passed to William, who fought the Jacobites till the Crown was firmly in Protestant hands-- where it remains today.

Stand by. Re-installation in progress, this may take several minutes.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #344 – 2014-09-19, 23:23:09

Well as i said we won.

And what do you know, Luxor is going to vote for who at the next election to get his own back? Kind of leaves him with the Greens (smile) or the SNP he claimed he didn't generally support. As for fear being the winner I can understand that being said if a Yes man as the security man at my local co-op store was gutted and hardly talk (?). We were being constantly told by Yes we on the No side were going to get walloped and that it would be a resounding rout. Trouble is that the Yes got carried away with all their posters, flags and posters on windows and such but as one canny Glaswegian said on Channel 4 News he wasn't worried and smiling said all the empty windows were the No people. A stretch I know but more than an element of truth.

Now we can get back to a normal life and how glad I am that television will move on from the pointless continual hype that bored us all to death. They just repeated everything daily so all of us onboth sides can relax and get on with life. Now for that holiday break"

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #345 – 2014-09-20, 11:03:34

Quote from: rjhowie on 2014-09-20, 00:23:09

Kind of leaves him with the Greens (smile) or the SNP he claimed he didn't generally support.

Well it's not as if I will ever vote for any labour or liberal candidate ever again, (nor tory, not that I ever would) and I will be making sure my local MP and my MSP get told to their faces directly. I hope they both are ready for what is coming to them, because I'm not going to be very polite.
If voting SNP is the way to do it then yes, that is what I will do. Heck I might even join them just to piss you off.

We saw what being part of the union means, in George square last night. Vile, bigoted, loyalist Neanderthals on the rampage with their nazi salutes. Scotland's shame, right enough. I dread to think what they would have done if they had lost.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #346 – 2014-09-20, 11:06:42

Enjoy your holiday rjh, but it won't be back to normal, the UK Parliament has to deliver on the pledge made on it's behalf by the the party leaders, and do it in good time and good order.

I look forward to more powers being given to the Scottish Parliament. It would reduce some of that anti Westminster whinging that some of you folks enjoy and hopefully make the Scottish Government more accountable for their tendency to over-spend.

Things can hold it up; for example a solution to the West Lothian question needs to be found and we know that the Labour partyrefer to keep hold of that bit of non- democratic behaviour.

More importantly, since the result of the referendum was to stay in the Union, the increase in powers for the Scottish Government needs to ensure not only the large Scottish wish for just that but also elements that bind the Union together. So it won't be Devo-max, as the nats would like,, there will be substantial reserved taxation and responsibilies. Corporation tax is one such an example. That alone could see the SNP Government crying foul with the potential for holding up the whole thing.

The other reasons for delay are, of course, the shear inefficiency of Goverment, any Government. Anyone who has worked in an organisation used to meeting deadlines could do it, but I doubt our politicians can. I hope to be pleasantly surprised.

As a Brit that oscillated between Brit to English and back again, I want those pledges to be enacted in full. That is regardless of whether I agree with them all. A promise has been made and I expect (want) it to be kept.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #347 – 2014-09-20, 11:25:20

Quote from: Luxor

We saw what being part of the union means, in George square last night. Vile, bigoted, loyalist Neanderthals on the rampage with their nazi salutes. Scotland's shame, right enough. I dread to think what they would have done if they had lost.

Now you know that's not true as you would no doubt point out for the ultra extremist behaviour of some claiming to be on the Yes side. Wait till this time next year when Rangers get back in the Premier Division, and we'll probably see the same sort of thing with a different excuse.

You're hurting right now which is understandable, but the aim should now be to get things sorted, not prolong bitterness.

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #348 – 2014-09-20, 11:42:21

In the meantime, Scotland's prosperity continues, and several thousand Scottish ship builders can relax. This would not have happened if there had not been a No vote.[/QUOTE

Re: The Great DnD Vote of Our Time

Reply #349 – 2014-09-20, 11:59:34

Quote from: string on 2014-09-20, 12:25:20

Wait till this time next year when Rangers get back in the Premier Division,

That's the very lot that was on the rampage last night. I'm a rangers supporter and they sicken me.

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