Democracy in America…

Topic: Democracy in America… (Read 69170 times)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #25 – 2014-09-11, 22:11:26

Quote from: ensbb3 on 2014-09-11, 21:02:15

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-11, 15:45:46
Congress must submit a new Proposed Amendment to the Constitution, rewriting the First Amendment regarding Establishment of Religion, stating it has the authority to establish a State Religion upon the outcome of a National Referendum.

The Senate & The House must then both pass that proposed amendment by a 2/3 vote (Super Majority Vote).

If passed in Congress, the proposed amendment is submitted to all 50 States, whereas 3/4 of the States must pass the proposed amendment & return it to Congress to become part of the Constitution & thereby become law.

I hope that simple example clarifies the process of DEMOCRACY vs. CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC

Yeah, but it doesn't happen. Or if it did , as it should.

[glow=blue,2,300]Cut & Dry Facts: [/glow]

There have been [glow=green,2,300]33 [/glow]proposed Amendments to the US Constitution proposed & passed through Congress,
then presented to the States.....

Of those [glow=green,2,300]33 [/glow]proposed Amendments, the States passed [glow=green,2,300]27[/glow], which then became law.

If any proposals fail in Congress *, then it can't get out to the States for them to vote on.

* Approximately 11,539 measures have been proposed to amend the Constitution from 1789 through January 2, 2013,
but failed in Congress.

Amending the Constitution has been successful [glow=green,2,300]5 times [/glow]since 1960.

SOURCE

IMHO, it looks like the process is working just as it was intended by the Founding Fathers --- by far
not impossible, but not exactly too easy either --- & rightfully so, again IMHO.

Remember: The process itself can be changed too, as provided for in Article V .

Please clarify what you mean??

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #26 – 2014-09-11, 22:46:33

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-12, 09:59:11

I have a growing hatred of the Baby Boomers.....

I'm a Baby Boomer, care to settle this, winner walks away healthy, at 1000 yards with my weapon of choice?

Honestly, I feel your pain.................................but, present company excluded,

[glow=green,2,300]Over 20 million voters under 30[/glow] didn't even care enough to vote in 2008, & furthermore the under 30 voting group
comprises of over 20% of all eligible voters. *

Enough to make a big difference -- to do a lot, if they got off their lil asses, & actually showed they cared.

IMHO, sounds like a big time motivational problem, not a Baby Boomer problem..............Yes?

Me thinks that be where your anger should be vented towards........

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #27 – 2014-09-11, 23:18:44

I have voted at every available opportunity. So, kindly spare me the propaganda piece, thanks.

No, it sounds like y'all need to remove your mouths from Reagan's rotting carcass and acknowledge the failure of voodoo economics. Likewise, liberals also need to realize and acknowledge Keynesian economics have also failed.

As a large beneficiary of said voodoo economics, I don't expect you to acknowledge its failure.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #28 – 2014-09-12, 01:38:36

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-12, 10:46:33

Honestly, I feel your pain.................................but, present company excluded,

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-12, 11:18:44

I have voted at every available opportunity. So, kindly spare me the propaganda piece, thanks.

You weren't the focus Nick, ......I know better, & I specifically made note for you to see I do.

Guess you missed that.

You're off base with the rest, unless you feel otherwise, & I somehow deserve your 'personal' ire & condemnation ??

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #29 – 2014-09-12, 01:55:27

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-12, 01:38:36

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-12, 10:46:33
Honestly, I feel your pain.................................but, present company excluded,

Quote from: Colonel Rebel on 2014-09-12, 11:18:44
I have voted at every available opportunity. So, kindly spare me the propaganda piece, thanks.

You weren't the focus Nick, ......I know better, & I specifically made note for you to see I do.

You're off base with the rest, unless you feel otherwise, & I somehow deserve your 'personal' ire & condemnation ??

Having re-read it, I see my mistake, and offer you my apologies. I am sorry, SmileyFaze.
I have had a rather rough past 4 days (even on my birthday) and have turned to DnD as something to get my mind off of stuff.

I shouldn't have directed anything at you, and again, I apologize. Reading political stuff only makes me angrier, and in truth I should probably stay away from it.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #30 – 2014-09-12, 02:02:10

No worries mate, we all been down those bad roads one time er 'nother.

Just remember, whatever doesn't kill ya, makes ya stronger....

BTW ........ Belated Happy Birthday......Soon yer gunna be an ole fart just like RJ......just betta lookin, smarter, & all around more humane!

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #31 – 2014-09-12, 02:56:29

Quote from: jax on 2014-09-10, 21:57:51

Since you haven't answered in years, it isn't so surprising that you would make a number of new posts skirting the issue. I can condense it more if you like, to anglophone (mostly) countries.

Is the USA a republic (yes/no/partially)?
Is Canada a republic (yes/no/partially)?
Is Australia a republic (yes/no/partially)?
Is the UK a republic (yes/no/partially)?

If answering partially, please say which parts are unrepublican.
If answering no, please say what exactly would exclude that country from being a republic.

The USA, yes… But increasingly approaching the other alternative.
With the adoption of the 17th Amendment, the US Senate became little more than the UK's House of Lords… (The effect of "popular election" was to dissipate the influence of state legislatures and governors. Thus was the 10th Amendment, finally, obviated!) Similarly, the Executive branch has -by its numerous Agencies, Bureaus and Departments- encroached upon matters great and small, simply because they can. And, of course, there are examples of the Judiciary's excesses…
If these qualms don't give you quivers, you're either far removed from their effects or far more complaisant with their entrenchment.
Please note: When most Americans speak of our Republic, we mean: A constitutional, presidential, separation-of-powers, federalist thing-a-ma-bob…! You're excused, if you don't readily understand. And we're excused, if we can't quite make you…

Canada, no. It is a parliamentary system — the ruling party is entitled to rule! The fact that they're -usually- smarter than to allow that doesn't obviate the procedures in place; similarly, their recourse to the monarchy is problematical.

Australia is a difficult case: Much commonality (at least, terminologically…) with our system should make me say "yes" — but the 1975 episode clearly requires a "no"…
Like other Commonwealth nations, they're allowed self-government — in their kiddie-sand lot. The "adults" step in, when things get fractious.

The UK is the exemplar of parliamentary government. It is not and likely never will be a republic. Their history of class divisions will always "inform" their politics, either in ascendence, decadence or reaction.
The "problem" with parliamentary systems is that they try to approximate majority rule.

No doubt, I've not satisfied you, jax: You want me to explain our way of life — by giving a glib definition of a single term, republic… Our history shows that we've not secured such a simplistic explanation.
But, when contrasted with another often-thought-to-be synonymous term, democracy, we bristle! And you become confused… (Or think us un-sophisticated! If you're aware of that word's dirivation, you know we're not offended.

) To us, democracy is synonymous with majority rule. And that principle is odious, since it doesn't comport with liberty — except accidentally: We meant to be deliberate…

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #32 – 2014-09-12, 12:36:34

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-11, 17:11:26

* Approximately 11,539 measures have been proposed to amend the Constitution from 1789 through January 2, 2013,
but failed in Congress.

Amending the Constitution has been successful 5 times since 1960.

For just a second let's pretend I know how the amendment process works.

I'm sure presidential succession, voting age and congressional paychecks are all important stuff. But my comment meant to point out that more laws than just amendments should have to be ratified to gain a republic. Congress should have the ability to pass legislation with an expiration date but, for example, far reaching laws like The Patriot Act should have to be ratified before it expires or it's gone.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #33 – 2014-09-12, 13:21:05

Quote from: ensbb3 on 2014-09-12, 12:36:34

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-11, 17:11:26
* Approximately 11,539 measures have been proposed to amend the Constitution from 1789 through January 2, 2013,
but failed in Congress.

Amending the Constitution has been successful 5 times since 1960.

For just a second let's pretend I know how the amendment process works.

I'm sure presidential succession, voting age and congressional paychecks are all important stuff. But my comment meant to point out that more laws than just amendments should have to be ratified to gain a republic. Congress should have the ability to pass legislation with an expiration date but, for example, far reaching laws like The Patriot Act should have to be ratified before it expires or it's gone.

I don't disagree .............................. I agree.......................to a point.

That point depends upon constitutionality.

If a passed law it deemed Unconstitutional, then it should be simply deemed null & void.

In such circumstances, if there is strong desire to have such a law re-instituted, the only way I see that that should be possible, being the original law was already deemed unconstitutional, is via a Constitutional Amendment, .

I would also submit the reverse is also true.......to a point.

If a Constitutionally valid law is found to be extremely unpopular, & there comes a movement afoot to remove that law, the simple remedy would be to limit it's term to sunset within a specified time, or better yet by a simple majority vote, remove the law.

Failing both, the law --- being it has been deemed Constitutional --- remains the law, with all the force of law, until a successful move to repeal it is passed in Congress & signed by the President.

Now, more on Democracy vs. Constitutional Republic.

Quote from: The Daily Paul http://www.dailypaul.com/1958/constitutional-republic-vs-democracy

Unlike a pure democracy, in a constitutional republic, citizens are not governed by the majority of the people but by the rule of law.

Constitutional Republics are a deliberate attempt to hold in check the threat of mobocracy thereby protecting dissenting individuals from the tyranny of the majority by placing checks on the power of the majority of the population.

The power of the majority of the people is checked by limiting that power to electing representatives who govern within limits of overarching constitutional law rather than the popular vote having legislative power itself.

John Adams defined a constitutional republic as "a government of laws, and not of men."

Also, the power of government officials is checked by allowing no single individual to hold executive, legislative and judicial powers. Instead these powers are separated into distinct branches that serve as a check and balance on each other.

A constitutional republic is designed so that "no person or group [can] rise to absolute power."

The original framers of the United States Constitution were notably cognizant of what they perceived as a danger of majority rule in oppressing freedom and liberty of the individual.

For example, James Madison, in Federalist Paper No. 10, advocates a constitutional republic over a democracy to protect the individual from the majority.

The framers carefully created the institutions within the Constitution and the United States Bill of Rights. They kept what they believed were the best elements of majority rule. But they were mitigated by a constitution with protections for individual liberty, a separation of powers..................Continued

Protecting the minority from the tyranny of the majority through limited government, based on the rule of law -- a Constitution.

That's what it's all about ............. that's what America was founded to be all about ......... IMHO, & from what I've read, in the honest opinion of our American Founding Fathers too.

Do you believe otherwise?

If so, why?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #34 – 2014-09-12, 14:36:43

Sir, isn't Constitutional-Republic is just simply Republic-Democracy ?

Since AFAIK ..

democracy =

--government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system.
--a state having such a form of government:
The United States and Canada are democracies.
--a state of society characterized by formal equality of rights and privileges.
--political or social equality; democratic spirit.
--the common people of a community as distinguished from any privileged class; the common people with respect to their political power.

Republic = a state in which the head of government is not a King , aka Monarch
and democracy is Democracy .

Constitutional = Meh ... Even Monarchy , autocracy , Anarchy , or Traditiocracy have some Constitution .
Written or unwritten .

well ..

i dont know what are the movations to Conflict that republic vs democracy .
in the U.S there are two partijs , Republican and Democrat .
and i cant stop my mind to not suspect it as somekind of campaign .

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #35 – 2014-09-12, 18:55:49

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-12, 02:56:29

When most Americans speak of our Republic, we mean: A constitutional, presidential, separation-of-powers, federalist thing-a-ma-bob…!

Constitutional - someone explain the Americans how many Monarchies are Constitutional.
Presidential - as if presidentialism was a requisite for a being a republic.... Most republic are either parliamentary or semi-presidential.
Separation of powers - My goodness, do they live at pre history to consider such as exclusive of republics?
Thing-a-ma-bob - that must be exclusive of the American "republic", no clue about what it is.

Another thread to endless discuss amendments of amendments of amendments while praying to the "founding fathers" (everybody stand up, please) for their perfect vision of the future...

Ah, I forgot Federalist... better not even bother with it.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #36 – 2014-09-12, 20:08:42

I see, Belfrager, that you are miffed -- because your almost-200-years late (1976!) adoption of a somewhat similar form wasn't mentioned... Perhaps your next revolution or usurpation will bring your country's politics to the forefront!

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #37 – 2014-09-12, 20:31:07

Oakdale, Oakdale... you're not asking me to show your ignorance in the matter are you?

Believe me, much better for you to stick with American, let's call it, "originalities".

When able to answer to my demonstration of the crass mistake Americans do with republic and democracy notions, please let me know.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #38 – 2014-09-12, 21:08:10

Perhaps -- after you explain to me why so many "intelligent" people become contrary and disputatious, when they obviously have nothing to say!

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #39 – 2014-09-12, 22:26:00

this kind of issues make me have some Questions .

the U.S is somekind of Republic With some taste of Democracy .
The People that Lived in that territories , Theorically allowed to do anything about How Their Government Run .

if the People of America really wish to Disable the democracy .
Then Why not just Propose some amandment to Disable That ?

Remove the Election , the Partijs , etc .
and just leave the Republic without Democracy .

if the Congress Decided to Do that , and Legalized it in somekind of Constitutional Court .

Fabulously , Even a President cannot Reject that Constitution .

If he/she insist to reject it , then he/she is deserves an impeachment .

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #40 – 2014-09-13, 00:42:07

Quote from: Sparta on 2014-09-13, 10:26:00

.....if the People of America really wish to Disable the democracy .
Then Why not just Propose some amandment to Disable That ?......

Remove the Election , the Partijs , etc .
and just leave the Republic without Democracy .

if the Congress Decided to Do that , and Legalized it in somekind of Constitutional Court .

Fabulously , Even a President cannot Reject that Constitution .

If he/she insist to reject it , then he/she is deserves an impeachment .

Simple....it can be done......All they need to do is follow the procedure set out in Article V of the Constitution to do so.....

All it would take is a Constitution Amendment..........in this case a few amendments..........Get 2/3's of Congress to agree to it/them.....then get 3/4's of all the States to vote & pass it/them.........It's Done!! .... Simple, a walk in the park.

There you have it Sparta.....all that you need to change anything you want in the United States of America at your fingertips.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #41 – 2014-09-13, 02:28:57

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-12, 02:56:29

With the adoption of the 17th Amendment, the US Senate became little more than the UK's House of Lords…

What right-wing idiocy told you this? That makes it the opposite of the mostly appointed House of Lords who can sit for life with no chance of being voted out. The 10th amendment is as follows:

Quote

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

This is not obviated by popular election of senators.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #42 – 2014-09-13, 03:59:33

The purpose of the Senate, with equal representation of the various states, of representing the States as the "People's House" represents the populace, is diminished; to the vanishing point, some say…
(And, yes, before you say it: I'm aware of the corruption and political connivances and "deficiencies" that -historically- made such a change seem sensible; but only on short-term political consideration… Geez! Even Wikipedia knows more about this than you…

)
Next, you'll argue that the Electoral College must give way to popular election of the president and vice-president! (And blame its persistence on "right wing" idiocy.)
If it seems to you that we are deficient in democracy, note how many states have amended their constitutions to ban same-sex "marriage"… There, you seem to understand the value of limiting democratic excess; we disagree, somewhat, on the issue — but I'd neither object to another state's contrary rule nor ask for the federal government to decide: The only acceptable path to a federal decision on the matter should be a Constitutional Amendment.
No?

You prefer czars and bureaucrats, judges and technocrats, to "decide" how we "get along" — which is to say, you'd be as authoritarian as you can get away with! Your libertarian veneer, and your new-found acceptance of the 2nd Amendment, doesn't convince me, that you acquiesce in the norms and forms of our representative democracy (our "republic"): You want what you want; and you'll reject any principle, if it can get you it.^*
But perhaps you've changed? (Your way of arguing doesn't support such a conclusion…)

Forgive me, if some of you don't see the relevance of this exchange of views to the topic — it could as well have occurred in any number of threads…
We've (us Americans) always considered, in our more sedate moments, our form of government an experiment…

————————————————————————
* Can anyone give me a cite of Sang accepting "the will of the people" — when he disagrees with them? (Recent 2nd Amendment opinions don't count…)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #43 – 2014-09-13, 08:31:16

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-12, 21:08:10

after you explain to me why so many "intelligent" people become contrary and disputatious, when they obviously have nothing to say!

That's exactly the reason why you have a constitution, to substitute the emptiness of not knowing what to say by the emptiness of the printed word, it's written so you can mention it. Nothing changes.
With just that little trick it's easy to make the people to believe that some sort of legitimacy can emanate from it. Basically it's getting a kind of Bible for politics in order to turn the thing apparently serious.

Since I defend a non constitutional Monarchy, the king being the "constitution" and where the soul of a nation can always remain a living reality and through the mechanisms of life to become perennial - a king for a generation, a dynasty for a nation, all this talk about constitutions is very irrelevant to me. Not so regarding republic and democracy.

Not even at Greek antiquity democracy was ever the rule of populace. In fact the majority of people couldn't even vote. Modern democracies are more or less the same although becoming the more machiavellian regime of all , but if you keep insisting on wrong concepts and definitions it's not possible to discuss.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #44 – 2014-09-13, 09:42:24

Quote from: Belfrager on 2014-09-13, 20:31:16

Since I defend a non constitutional Monarchy, the king being the "constitution" and where the soul of a nation can always remain a living reality and through the mechanisms of life to become perennial - a king for a generation, a dynasty for a nation, all this talk about constitutions is very irrelevant to me. Not so regarding republic and democracy.

Take a tip from the Bolsheviks, they had the right idea when it came to Monarchies.

A bullet to the head of em all .... each & every one.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #45 – 2014-09-13, 11:23:07

Quote from: SmileyFaze on 2014-09-13, 09:42:24

A bullet to the head of em all .... each & every one.

How could the founding fathers to forgot that part... without shooting monarchists that's not a true republic, is it? you need another amendment.

By the way, a bit of constitutionality classroom, if "We the people" is to be the base of all political legitimacy, then "we the people" will decide if they want a republic or a monarchy even more when in nowhere at the body of the initial constitution is expressed the USA to be a republic, it says the US will assure to each State a "Republican form of government" which is not the same thing as declaring the US to be a Republican regime.
In fact no one knows what a "republican form of government" is.

As for what amendments says you read them, not me.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #46 – 2014-09-13, 13:14:44

And then there's democracy in Portugal!

"Influential figures who took part in the 1974 revolution - in which junior officers overthrew the government - boycotted the official anniversary for the third year in a row.

Government-organised celebrations also took place a short distance away from the protests."...from the BBC.

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #47 – 2014-09-13, 14:35:46

Quote from: Jimbro3738 on 2014-09-13, 13:14:44

And then there's democracy in Portugal!

Ah, there you are, long time no see you.

Democracy in Portugal?? You're confusing, it's Kleptocracy we have here after that revolution, sounds slightly similar but it's different. (a coup d'etat, for being more precise, not a revolution)

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #48 – 2014-09-14, 01:48:24

Monarchy can work, Belfrager…

But towards what end

That you don't understand America (the U.S. of…) is not problematic: You miss the 16th century! That your own country can't satisfy your nostalgic urges makes you an educated boob… In much the same way as you bemoan the changes in your language, you resent the political changes you've seen.
You'd rather have stayed, and died, in the womb?

Re: Democracy in America…

Reply #49 – 2014-09-14, 08:31:47

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2014-09-14, 01:48:24

That you don't understand America (the U.S. of…) is not problematic: You miss the 16th century!

Funny...
Most Europeans if not all of them would say that I understand the US of America too well...
Who's opinion counts?

16th century? a perfectly normal century, no special memory of that.
Much more important were older centuries.

............
The European/American rivalry it's very interesting and with many funny episodes but I want to say one thing about constitutions so people can realize where lies the true importance of certain documents instead of keep debating into exhaustion irrelevant thingies.

While not a formal Constitution, not even a Constitutional Letter, there's a document written back at the early 12th century when Portugal fought the Kingdom of Leon and turned independent. Our first King, King Afonso I, immediately reunited "Courts" for the fist time in Portugal, being present the three "states" - nobility, clergy and people.
They made a document, known as the "Shout of Almacave", that states this particular phrase:

We are free, our King is free and by our own hands we have liberated ourselves.

That, my friend, it's the only Constitution you'll ever need and generations to come never forget.