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Topic: Tripe about Ukraine (Read 230890 times)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #800 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Have satellite images of BUK missile systems coming from Russia into the Ukraine been shown? Yes.

Satellite images made by US intelligence? Where are those images?
Either you give a source for an official statemnt of US intellicence with the according proofs (e.g.: satellite photos) or you better quit trolling.

On the other hand there are satellite photos provided by Russian intelligence which confirm that the Ukraine has deployed 4 BUK missile systems in the region shortly before M17 was downed. No Western intelligence has questioned the authenticity of those photos which were presented officially but instead Western media prefere to ignore them.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #801 –
Where's Google :p Or Yandex, well they'll probably not turn up results for you :p I personally used Bing. Saying "Where are those images?" doesn't cut when, in fact, the images are easy to find. Go get them. Did you forget about the rebels boasting of downing an aircraft with BUK missiles?  Russia made its claims on July 17 about Ukrainian BUK missiles. Then Putin's story changed to Ukrainian jet fighters, so apparently they couldn't even make themselves Ukraine shot down the MH17 with missiles and can't even keep the story straight on how to blame Kiev. Yes, I know what that investigator said but Putin said this before he did. I wonder if his bank account grew any? Thank you for reminding us of another one of Putin's lies. This is the trouble with lying as much as Putin does. You get yourself tangled up in your own web of deception.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #802 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Where's Google :p Or Yandex, ...

Your babble gets tiresome.
Give a source of an official statemnt made by US intellicence with the according proofs (e.g.: satellite photos) or quit trolling.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #803 –
You really are getting pathetic Sanguinemoon. No place no date no time and you just simply accept the propaganda you accuse others of accepting against your pathetic stance. When Russia has produced something they have shown their ding properly on the screen but you automatically rubbish such but you are quite prepared to take another "Intelligence Dept" at face value with no proof? Hardly a very strong basis for anything. Where actually is the proof of them attacking and destruction of a Russian convoy of vehicles. Showing "evidence" without any practical details amounts to a hill of beans. I like baked ]beans but don't like seeing them misused!

Kiev comes out with tripe after tripe. I also include the damn and scurrilous midden about not aiming at civilians their homes and livelihood. Yet what do we actually see? A large city and centre of the industry income of Ukraine being slowly rampaged along with villages that do not have rebel fighters. Power interrupted, water being cut off, food supplies, 2,000 killed and still the bl;itkreig goes on. Keeping nearly 300 supplies lorries at a border while people die lose homes and starve is a monumental disgrace and your mindset thinks this is principled action? With the industrial centre ion the East being ravaged by a State teetering on the  edge of failure you could not make this scenario up.

Weak excuses are being made by Kiev on the supply convoy and quite content to destroy innocent homes, villages, infrastructure and fall back on blaiming Russia. Had Russia wanted to invade the damn place it could have and squashed the Ukrainian Army.

One bit of good news. After 400 Ukrainian Army soldiers defected to Russia last month another 14 have joined them.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #804 –
Disinformation and lies presented as 'clear' evidence by Western mass media. The usual brainwashing that will most likely work on half-brained individuals.
One of the latest examples: "Ukrainian rebels are receiving new armoured vehicles and fighters trained in Russia"
Did Mr Zakharchenko, prime minister of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) indeed made such a statement or was he misquoted on purpose?
At least BBC, which isn't always as unbiased as one might think, puts it right this time.
source

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #805 –
Perhaps I should say that there are feelings here that the BBC has NOT been as middle of the road as it should be and I have squirmed at some of the bias comments. Channel 4 News, ITV News, Sky UK have all been very cleverly the same!

Meanwhile offical European observers at crossing points have indicated no Russian military vehicles crossing at 2 points they are watching. Of course they aren't at them all but there again anyone can go there take pictures and have a date and time. There is no definite evidence that the military has crossed the Border into Ukraine. That Kiev continues to refuse the supply convoy over the Border is a disgrace. For a government claiming to not bother civilians it is an added nonsense due to the homes, services, etc that have been destroyed and the number of deaths. President Putin is meeting with the Kiev President I think it is next week where one hopes some sense will prevail and the suffering people get what they need.  The West should be pushing for the aid to go in. With so much destruction being heaped on the East which is the main centre for industry Ukraine is not doing itself any favours but probably thinks it will get unlimited money dished out by the West.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #806 –
All over the place now: Russia has sent more than 100 aid lorries into eastern Ukraine - without permission from authorities in Kiev.

From what's been reported in various places, the lorries are basically empty. They are the model used by Russian military for troops transport, but painted white. If they are empty, it's nothing but provocation. The lorries are not meant to bring aid or relief, but at best to transport something (or someone) back to Russia. At worst, they carried something else and were emptied before being inspected.

(Most of this is my own conjecture. Feel free to prove me wrong.)

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #807 –
It reminds me of an old joke: to make it very short a man was pushing a wheelbarrow out of an army base with bricks in it. Every time he was searched but the guards could find nothing special about the bricks. This happened many times.

Years later a friend asked him if he was smuggling anything;

he replied "Oh yes - it was wheelbarrows".

I wonder how many army lorries went back to Russia.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #808 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
Meanwhile offical European observers at crossing points have indicated no Russian military vehicles crossing at 2 points they are watching. Of course they aren't at them all but there again anyone can go there take pictures and have a date and time.

They have dates and times. What is your news source? RT? What disease makes you think your government and its allies are all lying as Putin, the serial liar whose lies I pointed out to you multiple times, is telling the truth. Providing you with photos is futile. You'll just claim they're all fake. Really? You want them? Okay. Thursday, August 14 2014.  A military convoy including Armored Personal Carriers separate from the supposed aid convoy. Photo included . What now?  The report is just making it up?
Quote from: rjhowie on
With so much destruction being heaped on the East which is the main centre for industry Ukraine is not doing itself any favours but probably thinks it will get unlimited money dished out by the West.

Again, tell your pal Putin to stop stoking the fires of civil war. Without a doubt, Kiev did cause its share of damage. Now ask yourself why.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #809 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Providing you with photos is futile. You'll just claim they're all fake. Really? You want them? Okay. Thursday, August 14 2014.  A military convoy including Armored Personal Carriers separate from the supposed aid convoy. Photo included . What now?  The report is just making it up?

That's your 'clear' evidence. Isn't it?
Even a half-brained should have become suspicious by reading such a story.
Quote
The Guardian saw a column of 23 armoured personnel carriers, supported by fuel trucks and other logistics vehicles with official Russian military plates, travelling towards the border near the Russian town of Donetsk – about 200km away from Donetsk, Ukraine.

- So the picture of the armoured personnel carrier was taken on Russian territory.

Quote
After pausing by the side of the road until nightfall, the convoy crossed into Ukrainian territory, using a rough dirt track and clearly crossing through a gap in a barbed wire fence that demarcates the border.

- Did the reporter had the balls to follow the 23 armoured personnel carriers?
- Was the reporter equipped with night vision devices? Otherwise it's impossible to see a gap in a barbed wire fence from the distance at night.
- Do armored vehicles need a gap for passing through a barbed wire fence? If Russia wants to enter Ukrainian territory would it look for a gap in a fence?
Is the picture of armored personnel carriers taken on Russian territotory the only proof? Are narratives the only proof?

However this fishy story served Kiev as a template for their incredible claim which followed promtly, namely that they have destroyed those armoured personnel carriers.
Of course, another empty claim without any evidence as usual.
It wouldn't be hard to get up some evidence of a destroyed armoured convoy. Would it?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #810 –
The only way of knowing things it's going there.
People have the illusion that they can sit at home and know. They can't.
A matter of attitude.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #811 –
Quote from: krake on
Is the picture of armored personnel carriers taken on Russian territotory the only proof? Are narratives the only proof?

Meanwhile, your only contribution is "where's the proof?", despite photos and reported sightings of Russian military vehicles violating Ukrainian territory. Really? So every Western journalist that's been there is lying? That's what you're saying if you realize it or not. All the Western governments are lying as well? Not even just Western or Ukrainian. Now we have the Lithuanian government reporting it. Do you even understand how this stretches credulity? Putin, who was caught lying to the world multiple times through this and the Crimean affair is suddenly the honest one. Is that was you're really trying to tell us?
Quote from: krake on
- Did the reporter had the balls to follow the 23 armoured personnel carriers?

You can't be fucking serious. He was at the border watching them cross.
Quote from: krake on
- Do armored vehicles need a gap for passing through a barbed wire fence?

Meaningless. They were observed crossing the gap. If they actually need a gap or not is beside the point.

Now about this....  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/europe/russia-moves-artillery-units-into-ukraine-nato-says.html

Quote
WASHINGTON — The Russian military has moved artillery units manned by Russian personnel inside Ukrainian territory in recent days and was using them to fire at Ukrainian forces, NATO officials said on Friday.

The West has long accused Russia of supporting the separatist forces in eastern Ukraine, but this is the first time it has said it had evidence that the Russian military was operating in Ukrainian territory.

The Russian move represents a significant escalation of the Kremlin’s involvement in the fighting there and comes as a convoy of Russian trucks with humanitarian provisions has crossed into Ukrainian territory without Kiev’s permission.

Since mid-August NATO has received multiple reports of the direct involvement of Russian forces, “including Russian airborne, air defense and special operations forces in Eastern Ukraine,” said Oana Lungescu, a spokeswoman for NATO.


Oh I know. "Where's the satellite photos that I'll immediately discount?"

Well, satellite images of fire from Russia into Ukraine have already been released.


That's fake too, I take it? source

Russia has every reason to deny everything. Washington has little to gain and much to lose by falsely accusing the Kremlin.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #812 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on
Meanwhile, your only contribution is "where's the proof?"

Does it trouble you if someone is asking for proof if baseless claims were done?

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on
All the Western governments are lying as well?

You mean the coalition of willing? Hmm, it wouldn't be for the first time.
Do you remember the lies about Iraq? Allegations -> faked proofs -> bombings -> invasion -> destabilization -> civil war -> hour of birth of ISIL.

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on
despite photos and reported sightings of Russian military vehicles violating Ukrainian territory. Really?

Photos of Russian military vehicles made on Russian territory? Really? Where are those photos of Russian military vehicles on Ukrainian territory?
Where is the proof of the destroyed Russian armored convoy? That wasn't a simple lie of Kiev/Poroshenko but a blatant lie.
The chief propagandist of the NATO, Anders Fogh Rasmussen took that lie also as a 'clear' evidence.

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on
He was at the border watching them cross.

That wasn't supposed to be an official border crossing point. Was it? Was he guarding the board in the pampas or was he waiting for Godot there?

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Now about this....  http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/23/world/europe/russia-moves-artillery-units-into-ukraine-nato-says.html

Yet another allegation without any proof which we can dismiss as usual propaganda.

Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

Well, satellite images of fire from Russia into Ukraine have already been released.

Satellite images of fire from Russia into Ukraine? Really?  
Did US Fake Satellite Images to Show Russia Shelled Eastern Ukraine?
Another State Department Hoax? — Paul Craig Roberts

“These materials were posted to Twitter not by accident, as their authenticity is impossible to prove – due to the absence of the attribution to the exact area, and an extremely low resolution. Let alone using them as ‘photographic evidence’,” Igor Konashenkov, the official representative of the ministry, stated.

Last but not least - how comes that the US Department doesn't refer to its own intelligence which is supposed to have the most powerful reconnaissance satellite system but preferes to buy worthless images of a private company (DigitalGlobe) and refers to them instead.
Not even a German military expert confronted with those images by "Der Spiegel" could draw any stalwart conclusions from those images. However people like you can and are presenting them as 'clear' evidence.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #813 –
Sanguinemoon is very selective in his journalistic backups is he not? If Kiev tells him and the White House something it is Gospel and if not then, well overlook it! There is NO evidence of Russian Army convoys IN Ukraine. We have seen repeated short films of military vehicles but no report as to where they were. They even included one convoy over a hundred miles from Ukraine's border for goodness sake.  Add to that the brain insulting stuff that Russia could use the nearly 300 supply trucks as an opportunity to invade.For crying out loud how juveniles does the rubbish have to be and accepted yet again as 100% truth. No evidence whatsoever. Meanwhile the White House and Kiev show no great sympathy for all the innocent Ukrainians being killed even in areas where there is no conflict at all. Maybe Sanguinemoon when he gets home from the Kindergarten could inform us more on that one too. It is just blind acceptance of anything from the West. It does not matter how many times the Russian Foreign Secretary or indeed President says they are not interested in Ukraine the Sanguinemoon brain cells refuses any deviation from plans that don't exist.

Russia has spent a great deal of money supplying nearly 300 trucks that were kept waiting at the damn Border by the Kiev nutters. That people were finding it difficult to get water, electricity blocked, people starving (thanks to Kiev backed by Obama) the persecuted although in Ukraine speak Russian so that is enough to get done in.Even the picture i mentioned before of a Russian convoy "in Ukraine" was just blithely accepted by his gormless mindset. No date, time or place. On top of that had their been such an event the big bear would not have sent a small group of personell carriers toinvade a country. There would be tanks, planes, helicopters and so on.

It is utterly shameful the gobbleygook being spouted by the West on a fictitious Russian situation. May I also remind that Russia was supplying the Keiv nutters with power at a reduced rate and still NOT paid. Merkel is two-faced because she knows her farmers and industrial side is screaming blue blood as are other in Europe on the sanctions. At the same time she dishes out that loan to a State that cannot even pay cut price fuel bills.  Had Russia got totally exasperated at the way East Ukraine was being treated and wanted to invade they could have done so and pulverised the Ukrainian Amy and the neo-Nazis of the National Guard.

Right through a convoluted baloney by the West, Russia has ran a positive and constructive diplomatic coup whilst the brain dead in the West are brained into total keech.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #814 –
I love this thread.
The O.P. hinted in its name that it would be tripe, but in case we were inclined not to believe him, he removed all doubt by starting as follows: "I watched that Obama on television going on about rights and stuff".
Pure gold.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #815 –
Quote from: rjhowie on
There is NO evidence of Russian Army convoys IN Ukraine. We have seen repeated short films of military vehicles but no report as to where they were.

I guess you must mean besides all the reports of where they were? I see. So the Russian APC crossed the gap and turned around and went home?
Quote from: rjhowie on
. It does not matter how many times the Russian Foreign Secretary or indeed President says they are not interested in Ukraine the Sanguinemoon brain cells refuses any deviation from plans that don't exist.

It boggles the mind that you still believe Putin after I pointed out to specific times he's lied
Quote from: rjhowie on
At the same time she dishes out that loan to a State that cannot even pay cut price fuel bills.

That's way she issued the loan in the first place, Howie. First the pro-Russian old president runs the country into the ground, then Russia seizes Crimea. I already supplied satellite of images of shelling from Russia into Ukraine and all the while Putin continues to supply separatists to keep civil war going and you fault Ukraine for not being able to pay its gas bill? With all the damage Russia caused, they probably should pay Ukraine now.
Quote from: rjhowie on
Russia has spent a great deal of money supplying nearly 300 trucks that were kept waiting at the damn Border by the Kiev nutters.

If I came to your house and rob you, are gonna let me in again even if I promise a return of your stuff?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #816 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

First the pro-Russian old president runs the country into the ground,
...
If I came to your house and rob you, are gonna let me in again even if I promise a return of your stuff?


Yet another 2 statements showing your crass ignorance.
1. The pro-Russian old president? He wasn't pro-Russian at all. Relationship between Putin and Yanukovych has been always strained, to say the least.
Do you remember the gas conflict from few years ago? I assume that even your media mentioned about it.
In change for a corrupt and selfish Yanukovych, Ukrainians got now a mixture of oligarchs and right wing nationalists. Wish them good luck!

2. For your enlightenment - in 2012 Ukrainian GDP (gross domestic product) was 69% of the GDP it had at the time before it left the Russian Federation (1990).
Wonder how Ukrainian GDP will look at the end of 2014.
Add to this the energy supply at a discount rate from Russia, which will probably end forever.
Therefore many Ukrainians (especially in the East) think that they would be better off within the Russian Federation.
So far about your stupid comment of coming into your house and robing.
These are facts in contrast to your continued ignorant babbling. You should really inform yourself before going ahead with your trolling.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #817 –
Our media has its problems, but at least its not under the thumb of the state, like RT is. Did you hear about the American journalists and reporters that were honor bound to quit RT because they knew it propaganda and bullshit? Or maybe in your country they put another spin on it.

Do you even know what our media is reporting? I don't think you actually. You think it's propaganda written in the White House and approved by Obama himself, don't you? How many layers deep is the lies of your state run media, anyway?

This is pretty typical:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/24/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/index.html

Quote
Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- Armed pro-Russian rebels paraded dozens of captured Ukrainian soldiers through the streets of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine on Sunday afternoon, the rebel stronghold's counterprotest to Ukraine's Independence Day celebrations in other parts of the divided country.
A crowd of more than 1,000 people gathered to jeer and throw bottles at the prisoners, several of whom had bandaged heads and other wounds, calling them "fascists," "Nazis" and "traitors." The march started around 2 p.m. and lasted just a few minutes.
"The people came out to see the soldiers who had been shelling them around the clock, thanking the separatists for protecting them," said freelance journalist Maximilian Clarke, who witnessed the parade near Donetsk's Lenin Square. The rebels aren't foreigners who have invaded this city, he said. "The separatists here are locals; they are known here."......


Note it point out the bad behavior of crowd and the separatists. Parading captured troops loyal the government around. I thought this was was 2014, not 14 in imperial Rome. And they don't stop the crowd from throwing bottles at the prisoners like fucking animals. But it also notes those people view the rebels as protectors and that they're locals, not Russian troops in disguise.

Later on the article notes:

Quote
A day earlier, a convoy of Russian trucks that had crossed that country's border into eastern Ukraine without Kiev's authorization returned to Russia, international monitors said Saturday.
In total, 227 vehicles were sent into territories held by pro-Russian rebels on Friday, according to the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, which has an observer mission at the checkpoint the convoy went through.
By Saturday afternoon, they had all returned to Russia after delivering aid to the city of Luhansk, a stronghold for the pro-Russia rebels that has been caught up in conflict.
It notes that the aid had indeed been delivered. Also note how our media portrays Luhansk.

Who told your media is hellbent on demonizing Russia? It's not. Of course there are bad media outlets here, as everywhere. But if you take your time and check multiple sources, not treat some wanker's blog as a reliable outlet, etc you can discern the truth.

The truth is that much of Putin's actions have been less than admirable.

Now you accuse me of trolling. Okay, I provided satellite imagery of fire from Russia into Ukraine. I provided accounts and images of Russian military vehicles entering Ukraine. What they were doing there I have no idea, but nobody does this who's upto any good. Far from trolling, that's telling you directly what happened and providing evidence. All you can say is "where's the proof?" Bear with me for a moment as I illustrate how rare 100% proof is. Prove to me that you exist. I might be dreaming all this. You show your birth certificate. I might be dreaming that, too. Or more credibly, you show it and I can't make out the Russian well enough for it to be proof for me. There are as many angles and sides to every situation as there are people involved and there's almost always angle that evidence presented isn't absolute proof. However, there is preponderance of evidence.

That preponderance of evidence tells us that most likely Russian military vehicles violated Ukrainian territory and Putin indeed armed the separatists. In the nuances of the English language, that doesn't mean he supplied all the weapons, but some of them.

You accuse the Ukrainian government of being composed of right-wing nationalists. Perhaps there are some, but did you miss all those stories in late March and April about the police clashing with those types of people? Funny how you can repeatedly demand "proof" from me while not supplying evidence to support your claim that the entire Ukrainian government is like that nor too many of other claims for that matter. Who's trolling now?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #818 –
Meanwhile 'Column from Russia' moves on Mariupol

Quote
Ukraine's military said border guards had halted the column about 5km (3 miles) north-east of Novoazovsk, which is about 10km from the frontier in the far south-east of Ukraine.

Heavy clashes were reported at the village of Markyne.

One commander of a Ukrainian national guard unit in the area told Reuters news agency: "A war has broken out here."


This situation is getting out of control.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #819 –
@string

From the BBC article:
Quote
The Ukrainian military says it is battling rebel armoured vehicles that crossed from Russia

So the Ukrainian military says. What Kiev says should be taken with a pinch of sault. It's much easier to claim something than providing stalwart evidence.
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.

Quote
More than 2,000 people have died in recent months in fighting between Ukrainian government forces and the separatists. Some 330,000 people have been displaced.

"The United Nations' refugee agency said on Tuesday that more than 700,000 people have left Ukraine for Russia during the country’s four months of conflict. In addition, 117,000 people were displaced inside Ukraine."
One might wonder why those 700,000 people prefered to flee to Russia instead of Ukraine. All of them must be terrorists...
BTW, the exodus continues with more than 1000 people per day.

Quote
The BBC's David Stern describes how the captured soldiers were marched through Donetsk

That's indeed humilating and against the Geneva convention.
On the other hand shelling dense populated areas like the Ukrainian forces do is also against the Geneva convention.
Wonder which of the both is worse. The last gets often ignored by Western media.
BTW, how comes that the crowd is so enraged over those captured soldiers? Are most of Donetsk's residents terrorists?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #820 –
@krake - yes I too noted "Ukrainian military says" and assigned it in my mind as "provisional information". I don't believe it all, but something is happening since it's clear that Russia is assisting the Rebels and deliberately stoking the situation.

The right course would be to get the participants to talk but neither side seem to want that particularly.

However I blame Russia and specifically the wee man in the Kremin for the initiation of this crisis. It could have been dampened down so easily if Russia had taken a less confrontational and more hones stance at the beginning.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #821 –
Quote from: Sanguinemoon on

You accuse the Ukrainian government of being composed of right-wing nationalists.
...
Funny how you can repeatedly demand "proof" from me while not supplying evidence to support your claim that the entire Ukrainian government is like that nor too many of other claims for that matter. Who's trolling now?

You can find sources even in Western media which otherwise is anything else than unbiased.
How about Channel4?

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #822 –
Quote from: krake on
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.

So? The Dutch military easily has over 10 times as many weapons and vehicles as there is qualified personnel that can use it. Or maybe it's a little less these days, with the Cold War further and further behind us. I'd find that plausible enough if one assumes they captured a weapons stockpile or something.

NB They're probably lying, but it's not a priori ridiculous.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #823 –
Quote from: Frenzie on

Quote from: krake on
According to the rebels, they have captured more armored vehicles and tanks than they have qualified personnel for handling them.

I'd find that plausible enough if one assumes they captured a weapons stockpile or something.
NB They're probably lying, but it's not a priori ridiculous.

It wasn't my point that it is a priori ridiculous or implausible. On the contrary, in case they are telling the truth then more armored vehicles 'from Russia' would make little sense.
On the other hand, Kiev would hardly admit that the rebels are using captured armored vehicles. That could explain their mantra of 'armored vehicles from Russia'.

Re: Tripe about Ukraine

Reply #824 –
And apart from capturing vehicles they also paraded Ukrainian solider prisoners. Elsewhere an ammunition factory. None of this suits Sanguinemoon who would get lost in an enquiry office! He just trots out Kiev/White House propaganda as Gospel and anything outside of that must automatically be wrong. Do hope when he leaves school he becomes more aware and adult.

Some of the propaganda was that the near 300 lorries were an invasion. Now that is a new way of describing thousands of people without power, water, food being helped. Or is Western propaganda just to let these people suffer to suit the Kiev liars? Even if Kiev does overtake the rebels a legacy of distrust and dislike is being left in the east amongst hundreds of thousands let as they are. Totally innocents lying in streets and not involved or even near a fighting place are also killed by the super nationalists in Kiev. Even the suggestion of more local autonomy is being ignored by Ukraine and the President has now sacked the parliament and they will have an election in the middle of this disgusting carnage on their own people. Thank heavens Russia did something and will do more.  The Sanguinemoon thinking (hhhmh) does nothing to fathom that the industry income is in the East which is being destroyed that the damn country is getting loans and how will it pay them? Judging by the fact they still haven't paid Russia who they are sniping at for reduced cost power supplies says something too.

Europe IS now starting to suffer for the retaliation sanctions by Moscow which was perfectly entitled to do that. They were being castigated unfairly and now things are in a downward spiral for farmers, etc all over the place. Much of the lost markets in Poland and elsewhere will found they will be replaced by Russia getting the stuff elsewhere. There were millions in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union who were Sanguinemoon clones but I had mistakenly thought the world had moved on but it is like the poor = such will seemingly always be with us!  :faint:
"Quit you like men:be strong"