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Topic: "Scientists Say" blather (Read 81987 times)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #150
If you thought it was news to me, it merely confirms something I already knew… About you. :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
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Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #151
About me? Nevermind science?

 

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #152
Oh, I mind about science a lot! But where I think contemporary science has gone wrong is not the topic here… The topic is how people accept or reject media reports of "scientific" findings.
The various incontrovertible results that show our modern peer-review system to be inadequate won't likely change the levels of credulity, or acuity — on the part of the general public or of public officials.
And there are no proscriptions that can be imposed, no prescriptions that will be followed, that will correct the deficiencies of the current system.
(Psychological studies of "mediated reasoning" would be useful, except they're mostly -at least, in terms of publicity!- conducted by folk whose bias is blatant… You yourself, ersi, have some expertise in the methodologies used: What do you think of, say, Lewandowsky's papers?)

Since you only thought to comment about my abilities of perception, I thought I'd return the favor… :) But, seriously: Shouldn't such an indictment of the current peer-review system (…I repeated all those extra words, for those whose memories are extremely short…) obviate any argument that relies on "consensus"? :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #153

But, seriously: Shouldn't such an indictment of the current peer-review system (…I repeated all those extra words, for those whose memories are extremely short…) obviate any argument that relies on "consensus"? :)

So, you disregard these central features of science? This explains your haphazard attitude.

Consensus and peer review are central to science as academic discipline. Sure enough you can have dissent, but it has to be constructive. You can't just deny the findings and results, or yell "Your models are wrong!" You have to have a better model to explain the data.

Your criticism is unconstructive denial. This is why it is not worthy of attention.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #154
Consensus and peer review are central to science as academic discipline.
Perhaps that's part of the problem: The structure of modern academic disciplines… :)
I take it, you think I should "fix" or replace the dozens of supercomputer models relied upon by the IPCC myself — otherwise, pointing out that their predictions have failed is counter-productive? :)

BTW: Did you read Keeling's 2000 paper, about tidal effects…?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #155

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #156

I take it, you think I should "fix" or replace the dozens of supercomputer models relied upon by the IPCC myself — otherwise, pointing out that their predictions have failed is counter-productive? :)

As I have said, I know that the models are wrong. Same as in economics, IPCC "predictive models" are not even models. I know that there cannot be any prediction in that sense in non-linear systems, and their models are not built for the non-linear system that climate is.

In constrast, you are not saying anything relevant. You can claim to be pointing out that their models are wrong when you know what the right models are. If you don't know the difference between right and wrong, you are not pointing out anything at all.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #157
One does not need to know that 2 + 2 = 4 to know that 2 + 2 ≠ 5… As always, your primitive logic confuses you. :)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #158

One does not need to know that 2 + 2 = 4 to know that 2 + 2 ≠ 5… As always, your primitive logic confuses you. :)

The difference in this case is not merely knowing, but being able to prove. If you are unable to prove that IPCC is a case of 2 + 2 = 5, then I don't care what you secretly know in your own mind. What matters is that you are unable to back up what you say. More often, you talk in incomplete sentences, so that even some of your lengthy paragraphs don't amount to saying something.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #159
Models that make predictions (as all such must!) which fail to eventuate are deficient: Reality cannot be amended, to suit the modelers' fancies…
To say that one can't criticize a scientific model -for its failures- unless one has a better one is — well, just stupid.
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #160
The difference in this case is not merely knowing, but being able to prove. If you are unable to prove that IPCC is a case of 2 + 2 = 5, then I don't care what you secretly know in your own mind. What matters is that you are unable to back up what you say.
If 2 + 2 = 5 leads to a contradiction, it's wrong and known to be so…whether you grok it or not.

BTW: If you have a problem with my English, feel free to post in any other language. Google couldn't possibly be as biased as you… :) (Have you tried using Google translate to give you my meaning? :) )
But let me help you with something:
The difference in this case is not merely knowing, but being able to prove.
If you can't prove it, you don't know it… (Of course, you reject that bit of reasoning!)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #161

To say that one can't criticize a scientific model -for its failures- unless one has a better one is — well, just stupid.

You often talk past the topic, but when on topic, you miss the nuances. Or you are simply inconsistent, which is why your criticism is stupid more often than not.

Given the topic of industrial effects on ecology, it's not just about a scientific model, but about what's in plain sight around us, regardless of any scientific model. Pollution pollutes, and if you try to "scientifically" argue otherwise or ignore it, you are too stupid to respond to.

IPCC climatology is fundamentally as wrong as mainstream economics. The entire field is thoroughly discredited, because it absolutely fails to be predictive. Meanwhile, has economics been annihilated? No. Why not? Because you cannot annihilate economy. Economy goes on anyway even when you annihilate economics. Since economy is what it is, you inevitably need economists too, even when their models are flawed and defective. Similarly, ecology is vital and goes on regardless of the state of the mainstream science about it. The wise thing to do is to recognise its realities regardless of the stupid science.

You, on the other hand, have directly said that ecology does not exist. If you were consistent, you should hold that economy does not exist either. And if economy does not exist, then CO2 restrictions should mean as little to you as CO2 emissions do. If ecology and economy are are only "reification" and in reality they don't exist, then you have no reason to whine about any measures to restrict economy and ease ecology.


If you can't prove it, you don't know it… (Of course, you reject that bit of reasoning!)

Means of communication is that by which one conveys one's knowledge, not by which one holds the knowledge. So, failure to communicate does not necessarily mean lack of knowledge. On the other hand, there are also people whose smooth communication reveals their shallow intellect with brilliant clarity. Good to not have just one kind of people...

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #162
IPCC climatology is fundamentally as wrong as mainstream economics. The entire field is thoroughly discredited, because it absolutely fails to be predictive. Meanwhile, has economics been annihilated? No. Why not? Because you cannot annihilate economy. Economy goes on anyway even when you annihilate economics. Since economy is what it is, you inevitably need economists too, even when their models are flawed and defective. Similarly, ecology is vital and goes on regardless of the state of the mainstream science about it. The wise thing to do is to recognise its realities regardless of the stupid science.

You, on the other hand, have directly said that ecology does not exist. If you were consistent, you should hold that economy does not exist either. And if economy does not exist, then CO2 restrictions should mean as little to you as CO2 emissions do. If ecology and economy are are only "reification" and in reality they don't exist, then you have no reason to whine about any measures to restrict economy and ease ecology.

All that reasoning is correct but the point being that Oakdale's defending the absurd that ecology destroys economics which is a total nonsense and can't be allowed to pass as correct.

He's defending, and solely (all the rest is mambo jambo), the American heavy polluting industry that, obviously, sees ecological concerns as a menace to their profitability and survival.
Like the entire world is doing, change, adapt and contribute to a common cause instead being indifferent to all the destruction it causes.

American way of life doesn't mean polluting and destroying as so many of your co-citizens realizes. In fact, an entire new industry is growing with respect for ecological concerns.
That's the way to go for both moral and economical reasons, it is called sustainable development.

Man doesn't need to destroy Nature, he can work with it.
A matter of attitude.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #163
American way of life doesn't mean polluting and destroying as so many of your co-citizens realizes. In fact, an entire new industry is growing with respect for ecological concerns.
That's the way to go for both moral and economical reasons, it is called sustainable development.

Man doesn't need to destroy Nature, he can work with it.
Do you, ersi, agree with this sentiment?
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #164
Means of communication is that by which one conveys one's knowledge, not by which one holds the knowledge. So, failure to communicate does not necessarily mean lack of knowledge.
(I'll let the rest of your post pass… I suppose you were making a joke?) Science doesn't accept the mystic's grok, ersi! And for good reason: It wouldn't be science, then…
Do you understand that?
—————————————————————————————
He's defending, and solely (all the rest is mambo jambo), the American heavy polluting industry that, obviously, sees ecological concerns as a menace to their profitability and survival.
So…? Europe and China and India (and, soon, Africa…) are beside the point — as long as one can blame America? :)
You can't be that bilious, Bel! (Or are you and Howie Siamese twins? :) )

But look at how wonderfully effective those strictures and pseudo-capitalistic structures imposed since and because of the Kyoto Protocol have been! (Look 'em up yourself, you have the internet "over there". :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #165
So…? Europe and China and India (and, soon, Africa…) are beside the point — as long as one can blame America?  :)

You really have a trauma of persecution Oakdale... you represent the most industrial developed country in the world, with total disrespect for international attempts to reduce polluting emissions, it's just natural that everyone mentions you and not Bhutan...

Europeans are in the leadership for change.
China is a huge problem, as much or, probably, even worst than the US.
As for the countries of the third world, the rhetoric is known, pay us of we'll pollute as you did. Eighty percent of that money would go directly for their corrupt leaders and nothing will change.

However, many NGOs are, in the terrain, teaching and spreading an entire different view on this for the local populations. The change will come from inside. So it goes in the USA.
A matter of attitude.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #166
He doesn't get out the house much Belfrager to sober up and lives on books thus giving himn a self appointed description of would-be knowledge.
And hey Oakdale, I wouldn't want to be twinned to an ex-colonist that would be insulting.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #167
Europeans are in the leadership for change.
:) I assume you refer to "civilizational collapse"?!
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #168
Exactly, even collapsing.
A matter of attitude.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #169
But the U.S. will persevere… No? :)
Despite our still quite strong contingent of Euro-philes (mostly, in academia and government bureaucracy — the "intelligentsia," and you'll recall how Lenin described them? :) ), we will not succumb to your vices… Nor do I think we'll feel compelled to "save you from yourselves". You've made your bed; now, lie in it!
(Pun intended!)
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #170
Despite our still quite strong contingent of Euro-philes (mostly, in academia and government bureaucracy — the "intelligentsia," and you'll recall how Lenin described them:)  ), we will not succumb to your vices…

An American Leninist disguised as a Conservative...
You don't need a Country, you need a madhouse. Opps, you're one already, I forgot.

(Just remembered that I promissed at our "farewell thread" to easy on about America. Sorry, I lied. :whistle: )

A matter of attitude.

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #171
Problem about America is that it is such a comedy of errors that it IS noticeable but for all the wrong reasons. The word 'hypocrisy' fits neatly.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #172
An American Leninist disguised as a Conservative...
:) Is this typical of Continental "intelligence"? :) That I'm familiar with Lenin's definition and understanding of the term intelligentsia makes me a Leninist? :) No wonder, your civilizations are collapsing!

@RJ: Hypocrisy is quite normal for human beings — but some have made it an art form! (Hint: They're the ones who constantly harp on the hypocrisy of others! Of course, while ignoring their own…)
But why are you posting in a thread ostensibly about media garbling of scientific results? The media results are all you know, and even so the biases you hold to determine which "reports" you'll believe…
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #173
Here's an interesting study -as an example: Bacteria in the world’s oceans produce millions of tons of hydrocarbons each year
While it can be spun many ways, it's an important clue to how the earth's oceans adjust to…so much that we don't understand, yet.
(I'd reject the spin, and pour money into this area. The "health" of our oceans is important! :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: "Scientists Say" blather

Reply #174
Two researchers applied common neuroscience techniques to a classic computer chip. Their results are a wake-up call for the whole field.

So, Eric Jonas and Konrad Kording wondered, what would happen if they studied the chip in the style of neuroscientists? How would the approaches that are being used to study the complex squishy brain fare when used on a far simpler artificial processor? Could they re-discover everything we know about its transistors and logic gates, about how they process information and run simple video games? Forget attention, emotion, learning, memory, and creativity; using the techniques of neuroscience, could Jonas and Kording comprehend Donkey Kong?No. They couldn’t. Not even close.  Even though the duo knew everything about the chip—the state of each transistor and the voltage along every wire—their inferences were trivial at best and seriously misleading at worst. “Most of my friends assumed that we’d pull out some insights about how the processor works,” says Jonas. “But what we extracted was so incredibly superficial. We saw that the processor has a clock and it sometimes reads and writes to memory. Awesome, but in the real world, this would be a millions-of-dollars data set.”
This is obvious, if you know how to think, but of course empiricists have to try every silly thing for themselves.