Anthropogenic Global Warming

Topic: Anthropogenic Global Warming (Read 198418 times)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #750 – 2015-12-16, 01:31:58

OK--- shoulda chose another metaphor. EF-5 tornadoes are not man-made, can barely be predicted reliably even to this day, and the only way to reliably survive a direct hit is to get into underground shelter. How about standing in front of that thing and shouting "Stop"--- or passing a law to stop them (I don't know how you'd implement such a law).

Does that work for you?

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #751 – 2015-12-16, 02:50:01

So environmental regulations are impossible to implement and enforce, despite the fact they've been enforced before. Is that right?

Anyway back to avalanche metaphor for a moment. A skier decides to go off-trail and down a too steep run with too loosely packed snow. An avalanche ensues. Given that under those conditions an avalanche might have occurred anyway naturally, is it reasonable to assume he didn't cause the disaster? Should he have choose a more prudent course?

It doesn't seem impossible for humans to even cause tornadoes, which is Why tornadoes and hailstorms are more common during the workweek. One human can't, but a million commuters can. Maybe not thinking on the larger scale is part of the problem. None of us here will cause climate change by ourselves. But seven billion humans contributing to CO2 emissions can. Nor is the first time in the planet's geologic history that animals and planets have changed the climate. If anaerobic bacteria could pump oxygen into the atmosphere (the original climate change when the Earth was young) by exhaling O2 as waste product, why can't humans also change the climate by emitting CO2 as a waste product? You guys like to point out the climate has changed naturally in the past,but what you're failing to considers is there's a reason every time.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #752 – 2015-12-16, 02:57:39

I'd like to note that Faraday is building an electric car factory here in 2017, employing 4500 people.

The third industrial revolution is happening if the petroleum industry and their GOP/TP ~~puppets~~ allies like it or not. Further, we have corporations slowly implementing generating (or planning to) their own renewal energy supplies. Meanwhile, the cost and difficulty of extracting fossil fossils is not getting any easier. This like the beginning of the end of horse and buggy industry as automobile production was gearing up to replace them. Would have been smarter to buy shares in Henry Ford's factory or in horse and buggy plant at the time?

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #753 – 2015-12-18, 10:13:17

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2015-12-15, 18:57:39

The third industrial revolution is happening if the petroleum industry and their GOP/TP ~~puppets~~ allies like it or not. Further, we have corporations slowly implementing generating (or planning to) their own renewal energy supplies. Meanwhile, the cost and difficulty of extracting fossil fossils is not getting any easier.

Then why, Sang, do you (and a great many others…) remain so strident?

After all, you've won! Haven't you?

Why would you need a supra-national government to re-distribute income, to "fight" climate change…?

'Splain this to me, Lucy!

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #754 – 2015-12-18, 15:17:18

It's not about winning or losing. It's about clearing a path to the future and fossil fuels aren't it. As I noted, we're gaining 4500 direct jobs from building electric cars here. You already know about the new Tesla plant. We're rebuilding America's industrial base and cleaning up the environment at simultaneously. Let's bring back the good paying blue collar jobs and create an economy built something other than calling customer service bitching about nonsense, fake smiling at each other at Walmart while putting Chinese made products on the shelf, etc. I told you this capitalist and rebuilding the economy. I see little reason for the sad face.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #755 – 2015-12-18, 15:50:48

Surely you've seen the reports about the dangerous smog levels in China. They even had to close the factories. Dependence on fossil fuel is no longer humanly or economically viable for rapidly developing nations. How long before we start seeing that in Malaysia and India? It's not the 1960's and flower children anymore, Don. Despite what Mjmsprt40 says about the difficulty in implementing and enforcing regulations governing emissions, it's on tract to being an economic necessity in many parts of the world. Cleaner factories means production doesn't have to come to grinding halt by government order over public health concerns (including death among children, the elderly and the ill.)

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #756 – 2015-12-19, 03:55:13

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2015-12-18, 07:17:18

As I noted, we're gaining 4500 direct jobs from building electric cars here.

Whence the electricity, Sang?

You really should read Judith Curry's site more often…

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2015-12-18, 07:50:48

Dependence on fossil fuel is no longer humanly or economically viable for rapidly developing nations.

That's not what either the science nor the economic analyses say. (That's what the environmentalist groups believe, religiously!) The actual increase in "the earth's temperature" has been hacked — for what purpose?
The IPCC relies upon climate models which have been shown to be deficient… Why?
The policy people from -what is it?- 120 nations has decided to, essentially, become cultists! I'm not joining…

I'm glad for Nevada's boon! And I have no problem with newer, "greener" technology. I understand the pluses and minuses of "creative destruction"… But government —and supra-government— mandated economic destruction strikes me as not just over-kill but ritual leftest politics.
You, of course, disagree.

What I don't get is: Why?

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #757 – 2015-12-19, 16:48:18

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2015-12-19, 03:55:13

The IPCC relies upon climate models which have been shown to be deficient… Why?

Once again, many of the models proved to be dead right. You complained before about models be adjusted to past actual temperature readings from buoys. That's not a scandal, but double checking the data. As it so happened, the models prior to this underestimated the climate change. It would have been a problem is they deliberately lowered past climatic "data" to below the past temperature readings, but that's not what happened. So no the global temperature was not "hacked." In the absence of actually data contrary to Anthropogenic Climate Change, the blogs you read were forced to attempt to manufacture a scandal. In the end it doesn't matter

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2015-12-19, 03:55:13

Whence the electricity, Sang?

Here? Hydroelectric and solar. But yes, there will still be coal plants online for the next few decades. Even electricity sourced from that will still generate less emissions than a gasoline powered internal combustion engine.

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2015-12-19, 03:55:13

What I don't get is: Why?

Why what? Why the Paris treaty was signed? Because empirical evidence shows human emissions are the main culprit in climate change. This remains no matter what you or anyone says about the IPCC (while forgetting it's far from all climate models.) Oh before you were confused about my participation in this thread. Is that it? I believe your source of confusion comes from outdated Right/Left politics. You also have this notion that I'm some big government Leftist for reasons I can't fathom. In this thread, look at what I've been pushing. That would be the Third Industrial Revolution, in which the old polluting technology gives way to cleaner and more efficient tech. Why is this? Because I like clean air and economic growth. It's very simple once you put away your old notions.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #758 – 2015-12-19, 18:30:54

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2015-12-19, 16:48:18

Here? Hydroelectric and solar.

No wind there?

Hydroelectric destroys and kills rivers. Not only the eco fauna and flora but also the small human comunities that used to live from the river interacting in a healthy way with the river flow.
Is also destroys the capability of rivers to be major transportation "highways".

I have nothing against nuclear.
Waves and tides are also good options as well as geo-thermal.

Now, this is not only about producing energy but it's also about the need for conserving it and not waisting it. Houses energetic efficiency, more effective battery arrays and all that.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #759 – 2015-12-19, 19:25:44

Try to build a hydroelectric plant around here and the very first thing that will happen is the "Green Nimbys" will be all over the proposed site looking for birds and bugs and plants "unique to the area" that prevent building the structure. It would take decades just to clear the paperwork--- if it can be done. Not to mention that most major rivers here in the Midwest are transportation corridors, shutting down the Ohio to build a hydro dam is a non-starter as a fer-instance.

There is the TVA of course, but that was a late 1920s-- 1930s project to build that. There weren't so many Greens around, and with everybody looking for any kind of job they wouldn't have been listened to then anyway.

Wind farms take an enormous amount of land to produce anywhere near acceptable levels of power for general use. Same problem with solar power. Sure, you might get acceptable power to feed your house from one turbine and battery-pack, but the utilities have to try to feed an entire region with power. For the immediate future here at least, that still means coal, oil, gas or nuclear-fired boilers providing steam to generators to get the level of power needed to supply everybody. Each of these methods have their unique problems to overcome, ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #760 – 2015-12-19, 21:45:52

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-12-19, 19:25:44

Wind farms take an enormous amount of land

Ever heard about off shore wind turbines? Are you short of land?

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-12-19, 19:25:44

Same problem with solar power.

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We really need a scientific moderator... before we return to pre history.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #761 – 2015-12-19, 23:00:49

Quote from: Belfrager on 2015-12-19, 21:45:52

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-12-19, 19:25:44
Wind farms take an enormous amount of land

Ever heard about off shore wind turbines? Are you short of land?
Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-12-19, 19:25:44
Same problem with solar power.

------------------------------------------
We really need a scientific moderator... before we return to pre history.

Bel--- setting up solar panels to supply YOUR HOUSE with electricity is one thing. Probably mount the panels on the roof. Utility-level power is quite another thing. Go ahead---- tell me I'm wrong. This is one time I know I'm right. Com Ed simply can't supply the entire Chicago Metro Area with solar panel-generated electricity without gobbling up land that used to be farmland.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #762 – 2015-12-19, 23:14:35

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-12-19, 23:00:49

Utility-level power is quite another thing. Go ahead---- tell me I'm wrong. This is one time I know I'm right.

And you're wrong.

Germans are trying to use the Sahara desert to supply enormous quantity of solar power to Europe.
Technically perfectly feasible but they need to deal with local authorities to implant it. Not an easy thing as you can imagine.

Solar efficient fields of big dimensions aren't made of solar panels but reflectors arrays that directs light to one-point focused turbine. Each system like this can power up a small city.

Individual house systems aren't enough to power up modern energetic demanding consumption. You need at least to complement it with a wind turbine so it keeps supplying your batteries day and night for most of the days. And forget all those 2000 watts toasters, vacuum cleaners and shit like that.

The way to renewable energy is diversity. To each location and necessity, the adequate mix up of solutions.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #763 – 2015-12-19, 23:50:12

The Sahara Desert--- oh, man, think of the length of the cables to transmit that power! That's just to Europe. Here, the only comparable deserts are in the Western states, and running cables to transmit power from Death Valley to New York City ain't gonna happen. It would feed LA, SF and LV alright though.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #764 – 2015-12-20, 01:21:11

File this under "Damned if you do, damned if you don't":

Quote

Temperatures held steady until the mid-1980s in the Northern Hemisphere, where most of the world's population lives, and spiked up sharply afterward. By contrast, in the "relatively more pristine" Southern Hemisphere, which has much fewer people, the region experienced a steadier uptick in warming. That suggests that air pollution had a measurable effect on global warming on the globe's northern half, and less so in the southern half, he said.Of course, there are other reasons to curb pollution. Smog and other air pollution kills millions every year.
(source)

—————————————————————————
Sang, I'll correct the most egregious of your misreadings and misconceptions later…

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #765 – 2015-12-20, 03:37:19

Just a quick note. Our hydroelectric has been here since the 1930's from Hoover Dam.

Quote from: mjmsprt40 on 2015-12-19, 23:50:12

Here, the only comparable deserts are in the Western states, and running cables to transmit power from Death Valley to New York City ain't gonna happen.

Why not? The electric grid is already coast to coast so you would just need to tether the solar field to existing cables. I wonder if the GOPers would start crying crocodile tears about environmental issues if we did set up massive a massive solar array in the desert, is the coal plants they support don't do more damage :p

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #766 – 2015-12-20, 09:27:24

Intelligent grids are one of the most promissing areas at this field. Today in order you can light up how many lamps you want and have the necessary power for that always available means that the grid needs to be charged continually with ten times more the actual power we use.

Intelligent grids can lower such waisting very much.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #767 – 2015-12-20, 11:04:01

Quote from: Belfrager on 2015-12-20, 09:27:24

Intelligent grids are one of the most promissing areas at this field. Today in order you can light up how many lamps you want and have the necessary power for that always available means that the grid needs to be charged continually with ten times more the actual power we use.

And intelligence doesn't just stop at the grid. For instance, when the sun is coming down hardest on your solar panels, your freezer freezes a few degrees more. Then later when the sun is gone it barely has to do anything at all.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #768 – 2015-12-20, 11:54:55

Yes, the goal being that a house can produce more energy than what it spends. It can perfectly be done and the surplus is injected in the grid turning into a profit source for the house owner.

The problem is the mentality. People are brain washed into consumerist waisting societies and regards energy the same way, this must change. Most Europeans are already realizing it, I hope Americans follows the same way.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #769 – 2015-12-20, 17:23:12

Here Nevada Energy is making it difficult for people to do that. The CNBC network calls it Ground zero in the solar wars .

Quote

Current law mandates a limit of 3 percent on residential solar production, as a percentage of the utility's historical peak load, as being eligible for so-called "net metering" credits. In other words, consumers who add solar panels to their homes are eligible for credits from the utility as long as the state's total solar-generated energy falls under that 3 percent cap. But if the state's solar energy begins to exceed the 3 percent limit—as it's likely to do soon—then new solar panel users won't get a credit.

The major gaming companies are also leaving the Nevada Energy grid. They finally got the okay, but have to pay 126.6 million USD "exit fee." For finding their own suppliers and generating their own energy.

Yes, the problem is mentality, but the other problem is electric companies putting up obstacles. Wanna read NV Energy's CEO try to talk people out of solar power, in a state the has an abundance of that resource? Here ya, go Not all of what he's saying is true. There are batteries for storage of the energy generated during the day. Check this out, an Arizona solar plant that keeps generating after dark via a molten salt storage system. That would be beautiful for us with vast expanses of open desert to build solar plants on. Hell, we might even be able to export some to other states to add to our coffers (maybe even NV Energy can share in the profits so they stop crying over people and businesses trying to get off their grid :p )

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #770 – 2015-12-20, 20:03:19

Quote from: midnight raccoon on 2015-12-20, 17:23:12

The major gaming companies are also leaving the Nevada Energy grid. They finally got the okay, but have to pay 126.6 million USD "exit fee." For finding their own suppliers and generating their own energy.

That's totally against free market. In Europe we've laws against monopolies and as a result you can contract your energy supplyer in a free way.
Public companies that owns the energy grid and infraestructures are forced to rent it to any company that wants to explore it. That's the way to go, "exit fees" for final consumers are inadmissible.
Besides, laws forbiding final consumers to produce their own energy were considered inconstitutional.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #771 – 2015-12-21, 03:04:19

I agree, but that's how it is here. Nevada Energy has a monopoly on the entire state

You can get solar panels from Solar City (a firm run by Elon Musk of Tesla, SpaceX and Paypal fame) but I wonder if a family wanting to leave the NV Energy grid would also be charged an "exit fee" or if that's just the gaming companies because they're such large customers and why such a low cap on credit if the family wanted to contribute back into the electric grid. I would think NV Energy would encourage that, but instead we have the CEO putting out propaganda against it.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #772 – 2015-12-22, 07:47:22

Do you mean to say that Public Utility CEOs are supposed to have the interest of the public in… Never mind; you will never understand.

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #773 – 2015-12-22, 09:49:56

Quote from: OakdaleFTL on 2015-12-22, 07:47:22

Do you mean to say that Public Utility CEOs are supposed to have the interest of the public in… Never mind;

There was a time when people in charge of public's interest used to... Never mind;

Re: Anthropogenic Global Warming

Reply #774 – 2015-12-22, 10:10:01

Quote from: Belfrager on 2015-12-22, 01:49:56

There was a time when people in charge of public's interest used to...

do whatever the hell they wanted to, because noone could stop them… Even when everyone knew they were insane, it didn't matter: Rules is rules!

Just like so-called science has to be sacrosanct: If it is subject to the "normal" scientific rigor, it doesn't support the policy prescriptions of those who think they're the Ruling Class…

I'm not opposed to an aristocracy — but I'd really resent an "idiocracy"… Can you show me that what you'd accept and what you propose is worthy?