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Topic: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga (Read 347541 times)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1425
Nothing worse than a Yank that knows little of the outside world trying to be something. The last government which only went recently was a coalition between Conservatives and Liberal Democrats. No matter who is in power all House of Commons Committees have members from a whole range of parties. It also includes a chairman who is not o the governing prty as part of the system. In addition the regional parties outside of the 3 main ones are ALSO on those parliamentary Committees. Scottish nationalists, Welsh nationalists, the two Ulster Unionist parties. None of this happens in your messed up corporate controller just 2 so what we practice IS a far wider democracy than the 2 giants who run your mess.

You are stuck with what you have morphed into and there are an awful lot of Americans who are fed up with what they have and control freakery of the big 2. So please do stop trying to sneak away from the subject which includes the lack of a more open system would be better over there. It is also why that Senator Sanders created a new sensation and indicates the dissatisfaction at things.  The Democrats and Republican dictatorship has created the lack of wider ways of doing things and is a very fundamental problem.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1426
And when, pray tell, was the last time GB had a PM that was neither Conservative or Labour?
I'll answer for him, that would have been a mere 100 years ago , when Howie was only 30 years old.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1427
The Democrats and Republican dictatorship has created the lack of wider ways of doing things and is a very fundamental problem.
Very true.

Bi-partisanship it's a false democracy aimed to perpetuate a dictatorship - chose whatever you want but only between black or white.
Colors are subversive to the establishment.

The same happens in my Country between the Social Democrat and the Socialist party, everything else being accused of lacking "credibility".
A matter of attitude.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1428
Well midnight you are as bad as Oakdale. I have already proved twice that our system is more democratic than yours by a damn mile. Apart from the last government being of 2 parties (note more than one) I emphasised that all parliament committees are spread over all parties in their composition. On top of that it is also routine for a chairman to be from the official opposition to the government broadening even more so. Anyway none of that means sod all to you lot because you are stuck with 2 corporate parties and your parliament is not as wide as ours either.

Trump's popularity is because more and more ex-colonists are getting fed up with the routine controlled system and the party hype merchants. Amongst not sures or don't knows Trump is not doing very well in scores BUT neither is Clinton on trust and much else. You poor sods will be stuck with the usual and going nowhere except increasing the debts, military stuff for the corporate companies whilst so many at home are as they are. I feel sorry for you being stuck with Clinton and Trump.  :(
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1429
I was merely stating a fact, Howie. The last PM that wasn't Labour nor Conservative was in 1916 with Liberal PM David Lloyd George. Despite token representation by smaller parties, your two main parties seem to have it sewn up pretty tight. 559 of your MPs are either Labour or Conservative, 54 (the majority of the remainder) are SNP.

I looked up your  "coalition" government
Quote
David Cameron formed the First Cameron ministry after being invited by Queen Elizabeth II to begin a new government following the resignation of the previous Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Gordon Brown, on 11 May 2010. It was a coalition government, composed of members of both the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats.

The government's Cabinet was made up of sixteen Conservatives and five Liberal Democrats with eight other Conservatives and one other Liberal Democrat attending cabinet but not members
Okay, so now we know what coalition government is and it doesn't seem to mean a whole lot. The party with PM gives another party seats on the Cabinet. Nice way for Cameron to lock out the second and third largest parties in the UK, btw. You know, the ones just about everybody voted for outside Cameron's own party. "Wide democracy" by ass.

It seems the US even has defacto "coalition" by those standards. Republican Robert Gates was Obama's Secretary of Defense until 2011, followed by Chuck Hagel for same position since 2013. Republican Ray LaHood was Secretary of Transportation since 2009. There are other Republicans in Obama's government as well (scroll to the bottom of the list) 
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1430
Utter rubbish from midnight of course. The government coalition between Conservative and liberal Democrats was not a mess thing. It meant the Tori(Conservatives) had to scale back some things to accommodate the LibDems and sometimes vice-versa. That IS democracy. There have also been parliaments where the government has been outvoted by a combination of other parties (another education for dumb Yanks)he commons Committees in hard practice do have influence as it happens on the parliament and finalising situations and decisions. All of this is far more widely democratic that the rubbish over in America. You have 2 parties  run by corporates on both sides> many over in America are getting frustrated because the Democrats and Republicans do stitch up things and any others suitably stopped from getting anywhere. To somehow ignore the wider attitude here to the control freakery in the US is so stupid to be blunt.

You try to avoid the hard truth of the political system in the USA and that people are using their grey cells getting fed up with things. That is why Sanders actually did so well and why Trump is as well. We can question him of course but the fact that he is not a regular Beltway politician has attracted a great chunk of the population. On the Clinton corner the proportion of don't knows yet but who are suspicious of her is very high . Both are the result of a limited democracy  and trying to get a dig at a wider system because of frustration is not very constructive. With what you poor ex-colonists are tuck with just the 2 what  difference it would be if your 2 Houses and a couple or more of other parties in them. Waken up.
"Quit you like men:be strong"

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1431
If it's democracy, where's Labour and SNP in this? Let a Las Vegan tell you this some kind of sweetheart deal between a major party and a smaller one. If you don't understand this, you're naive about your country and overly cynical of our's. I'm fed up with Democrats and Republicans as much as anyone, but open your eyes about this grand "coalition" of yours and while you're doing that notice defacto ones happen in the US routinely.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1432
Bi-partisanship it's a false democracy aimed to perpetuate a dictatorship - chose whatever you want but only between black or white.
Colors are subversive to the establishment.

The same happens in my Country between the Social Democrat and the Socialist party, everything else being accused of lacking "credibility".
It might be of interest to mention that the names of your parties are misleading.
Portugal's Socialist Party (Partido Socialista/PS) resembles the German SPD or the British Labour Party.
The so called Social Democratic Party (Partido Social Democrata/PSD) is a center-right party resembling the German CDU or the UK Conservatives.

At some point I have to agree with Belfrager that there are no more Social Democratic Parties, at least no Social Democratic Parties as they used to be programmatically. During the last decades there was an intense drift from the centre to the right.
As an example, "The Left" (Die Linke - Germany) considered today a left-wing party, stands where the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) stood 20 years ago. The Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) is today much closer to the right-wing than the CDU was 20 years ago.

I'm afraid that for some Americans it isn't easy to evaluate Europe's political spectrum since in the USA even Obama and Hillary are labeled sometimes as communists.  ;)
So far, Wall Street and hawkish neocons (no matter if Reps or Dems) alltogether seem to love 'communists'.  :lol:

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1433
I'm afraid that for some Americans it isn't easy to evaluate Europe's political spectrum since in the USA even Obama and Hillary are labeled sometimes as communists.  ;)
American intelligentsia knows perfectly well the European political spectrum, after all how many European political parties have they already financed? not a few I can guarantee you.

There you have something that will drive mad our American friends, to know that their "tax money" has been paying for "our" political parties. :)
And yet that was the right thing to do to preserve America's influence over Europe. It's the hidden war.

I don't see the American candidates to explain too much of these things to their supporters. In fact, the Presidential campaign has such a low intellectual level that it turns into a frightening thing the world assists astonished to.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1434
I can only assume I'm wrong because I don't see what any of you are on about.

The only difference to me is how many labels does it take to make you feel comfortable. A short game mindset. I'd like to see a third party only to snatch up votes. It's strength is as irrelevant as the words that come out of politicians' mouths. When the dust settles we are left with two opinions to vote on. Or really one plan and one "aw hell no". A third party will help that at least be two plans to vote on. Even for a long game player change moves too slow when disaster comes so quick.

What we need with what's available is a one term Hillary. To do that we'll have to give her enough rope to hang herself ( a favorable congress at least 2yrs) We'll get regulations we need and her going too far will hopefully get the GOP to put up a serious candidate that can win. We then lose some of that regulation but buy a decade or so of prosperity. Depending on how congress sits.  

Rotate the power between parties. How many you do that between isn't that important.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1435
We'll get regulations we need and her going too far will hopeful get the GOP to put up a serious candidate that can win.
You're forgetting who you're talking about. The GOP will all turn into Trump :p Trump himself was the inevitable outcome of years of Palin, Bachmann, the Tea Party and assorted other clowns.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1436
You're forgetting who you're talking about. The GOP will all turn into Trump :p Trump himself was the inevitable outcome of years of Palin, Bachmann, the Tea Party and assorted other clowns.
You mean the result of being in power too long. Party front-runners aren't there because they have good ideas.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1437
There you have something that will drive mad our American friends, to know that their "tax money" has been paying for "our" political parties. :)
And yet that was the right thing to do to preserve America's influence over Europe. It's the hidden war.
What "drives me mad" is not that. It's the fact that with the farce we call NATO (and fund for the most part, with the exception of a few countries paying in their 2%) we waste money that could have been spent setting up a national health service for all in this country, not just the poor and old.

Instead, we opt to fund that jackass organization. I am all for you all setting up a "European Defence Force". The sooner the better, in my opinion.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1438
Instead, we opt to fund that jackass organization. I am all for you all setting up a "European Defence Force". The sooner the better, in my opinion.
Forget it, it's impossible.

Edit: I read that Trump invited some ex Bill Clinton's lover woman to the first row at the debate with Hillary.
That's low, that's really low.
A matter of attitude.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1439
I read that Trump invited some ex Bill Clinton's lover woman to the first row at the debate with Hillary.
That's low, that's really low.

Not Really.

It's simply a retaliation to a first shot by Clinton ............ & not low at all.

In American Politics, all's fair game, & SHillary made it wide open by inviting a despised adversary of Trumps, & by placing him front row center to harass Trump, & by further trash talking Trump's alleged indiscretions with women, as if the Clinton's are pure as the white driven snow.  :lol:

SHillary pounds her chest, & exclaims she is out there running as the heroine for all the women of America, but she conveniently omits her vile treatment of the American women who either disagree with her, or attack her husband by simply making sexual misconduct claims against him, which BTW Clinton....affectionately known as 'Slick Willy'.....was well known for!

These claims btw were widely reported on, & thoroughly investigated.

Slick Willy's indiscretions are well documented & legendary, as are Hillary's vicious & relentless attacks on the women who Bill had trysts with ......... which actually enabled his ongoing affairs, as well as his both their political aspirations.

Source:  The N.Y. Times  
Quote
........the resurfacing of the scandals of the 1990s has brought about a rethinking among some feminists about how prominent women stood by Mr. Clinton and disparaged his accusers after the “bimbo eruptions,” as a close aide to the Clintons, Betsey Wright, famously called the claims of affairs and sexual assault against Mr. Clinton in his 1992 campaign.

Even some Democrats who participated in the effort to discredit the women acknowledge privately that today, when Mrs. Clinton and other women have pleaded with the authorities on college campuses and in workplaces to take any allegation of sexual assault and sexual harassment seriously, such a campaign to attack the women’s character would be unacceptable.

Back then, Mr. Clinton’s aides, having watched Gary Hart’s presidential hopes unravel over his relationship with Donna Rice in the 1988 Democratic primary race, were determined to quash any accusations against Mr. Clinton early and aggressively, former campaign aides said. Mrs. Clinton had supported the effort to push back against the women’s stories.

Much of her involvement played out behind the scenes and was driven in part by her sense that right-wing forces were using the women and salacious stories to damage her husband’s political ambitions.

Her reflex was to protect him and his future, and early on, she turned to a longtime Clinton loyalist, Ms. Wright, to defend him against the allegations, according to multiple accounts at the time, documented in books and oral histories.

“We have to destroy her story,” Mrs. Clinton said in 1991 of Connie Hamzy, one of the first women to come forward during her husband’s first presidential campaign, according to George Stephanopoulos, a former Clinton administration aide who described the events in his memoir, “All Too Human.” (Three people signed sworn affidavits saying Ms. Hamzy’s story was false.)

When Gennifer Flowers later surfaced, saying that she had had a long affair with Mr. Clinton,
Mrs. Clinton undertook an “aggressive, explicit direction of the campaign to discredit” Ms. Flowers, according to an exhaustive biography of Mrs. Clinton, “A Woman in Charge,” by Carl Bernstein.


Mrs. Clinton referred to Monica Lewinsky, the White House intern who had an affair with the 42nd president, as a “narcissistic loony toon,” according to one of her closest confidantes, Diane D. Blair, whose diaries were released to the University of Arkansas after her death in 2000.

Ms. Lewinsky later called the comment an example of Mrs. Clinton’s impulse to “blame the woman.”..........

Over the years, the Clinton effort to cast doubt on the women included using words like “floozy,” “bimbo” and “stalker,” and raising questions about their motives. James Carville, a longtime strategist for Mr. Clinton, was especially cutting in attacking Ms. Flowers. “If you drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, you never know what you’ll find,” Mr. Carville said of Ms. Flowers. (Mr. Carville has maintained that earlier reports indicating that he had made the remark about Paula Jones, another Clinton accuser, were incorrect.)

Now that the stories are resurfacing, they could hamper Mrs. Clinton’s attempts to connect with younger women, who are learning the details of the Clintons’ history for the first time. Several news organizations have published guides to the Clinton scandals to explain the allegations to a new generation of readers.

Alexis Isabel Moncada, the 17-year-old founder of Feminist Culture, a popular blog, was not old enough to remember the 1990s, but lately she and her thousands of young female readers have heard a lot about the scandals.

“I heard he sexually harassed people and she worked to cover it up,” Ms. Moncada said of Mr. and Mrs. Clinton. “A lot of girls in my age group are huge feminists, and we don’t react well to that.”............continued

If Donald Trump invites Gennifer Flowers as one of his 400 guests to the debate, & places her front & center to Clinton, it's a stark reminder to Clinton that it takes two to tango, & this is just one of her chickens coming home to roost......they'll be more to come....count on that...........all's fair in politics.

If she wouldn't have verbally assaulted, demeaned, & attacked Flowers the way she did, Flowers probably would have faded out of memory years ago .....  as a distant memory, but Clinton famously bashed Flowers mercilessly, as she did to all the others who spoke up about Bill, bashed them both verbally & financially.....& in Flowers' case also had her followed * harrased by agents day & night, & now SHillary has the gall to run as the 'heroine of all woman kind'?!!

What a lying hypocrite!

Gennifer Flowers will be a stark reminder to all that Clinton is willing to pompously say one thing, but in reality, she hypocritically does another.........& that's well documented. ;)




     In times of universal deceit, telling the honest truth is a revolutionary act.


Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1441
Oh, there is an American Pirate Party as well, but just as the Libertarian, the Green, and all those other parties, they are kind of pointless. First Past the Post and all that. Though, if I was American and wanted to vote, but not to vote for one of the two that would get elected, I might go for the Pirates. They are also members of Pirate Parties International.

The European Pirates are in different states. The Norwegian leadership decided they wanted to reinvent democracy, and are unlikely to surface for air in the next few years. The original, Swedish Party, lost the last election, but are more experienced and mature than most. The German Pirate MEP, Julia Reda, I think does an excellent and commendable job. 

The big one is Iceland, with an election a month hence, and with the Pirate Party still the largest Icelandic party in polls, neck and neck with the Independence Party. Whether they will actually become the largest remains to be seen, and a Pirate Prime Minister is unlikely, but they have a pretty good chance of getting in government or get their policies through. That includes giving Icelandic citizenship to Edward Snowden.

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1442
Well, the first of three presidential debates is over… That's an hour and a half of my life I'll never get back! :(
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1443
I just got through watching most of the first debate. As expected, Trump was defensive and agitated - the opposite of presidential. He was short on specifics and spoke in bumpersticker slogans.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1444
And Hillary was Hillary… Towards the end she even accused Trump of saying that women should be paid the same as men, if they do as much work! (Democratic code "equal pay for equal work" long ago dropped the "for equal work" clause… :) Entitlement is the commodity they sell, for votes.)

There are only two things I can think of that Hillary didn't screw up: Her 1000% profit on her first cattle futures deal. And her speaking engagement deals with Wall Street banks.
Everything else seems either shady or outright failure… (See the pattern, Sang? :) )
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1445
:love: And DnD is DnD

Although, it's feelings being sold. And people can't get enough of them.  :worried:

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1446
The implication is that women don't work as hard. In my experience, it depends on the person.
And her speaking engagement deals with Wall Street banks.
Okay, Howie......

Even Republican leaning Fortune agrees with me

Quote
  In the first and potentially most consequential presidential debate of 2016, the Democratic nominee presented as composed and commanding, ticking through her policy prescriptions while landing a series of devastating blows on Donald Trump’s record and readiness. A fidgety Trump meanwhile tried repeatedly to ruffle her with interruptions while riffing his way through his own answers, but struggled on both counts.

On many occasions, Trump was factually challenged as usual.

Hillary might not be great, but with Republican contender we need to ask ourselves how we sank so low. Nothing about the man says he should be president. Policy and not even having the facts about his his own history straight aside (usual failed Trickle Down Voodonomics), even his temperament is off.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1447
The jackass even tried to double down on the claim that Hillary started the birther conspiracy. Maybe some Hillary supporters back then did make that claim about Obama, but who was one of the main ones keeping that idiocy going? :confused: Oh, I remember now! Hint, he look like a mango with a dead read on it.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1448
The jackass even tried to double down on the claim that Hillary started the birther conspiracy.
… Yeah, I know: Like the "Willie" Horton story: Dems start them, and then back away when Republicans follow up.
I grant that Trump is inarticulate, and "fact" challenged in a debate setting.  But it was Hillary Clinton operatives who began the "birther" meme.
"All's fair, in Democrat party politics!"
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"Humor is emotional chaos remembered in tranquility." - James Thurber
"Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts!" - Richard Feynman
 (iBook G4 - Panther | Mac mini i5 - El Capitan)

Re: The American 2016 Presidential Elections & The Ongoing American Saga

Reply #1449
Dems start them, and then back away when Republicans follow up.
In this case, the few Dems that ever believed it back away when it was found to be bullshit. Maybe Donald was conflating Hillary with some of her supporters. Hillary herself rejected the use of this stupidity in her campaign against Obama. It's very possible this shows she's smarter than Donald. Perhaps (unlike him) she saw this would turn around and bite her in the ass as it is for him and his only excuse is incorrectly saying she started it.

Inarticulate is one thing, visibly agitated is another. If he gets agitated in the debates; how his he going to be able to handle the fiendishly clever President Putin or  Xi Jinping. I suspect the answer is that he won't. Putin will play him (and by extension America) for the fool he is. I don't know much about Xi Jinping, but suspect the same outcome. The Chinese are reaching for superpower status (perhaps already have it?), are nobody's fool; and aren't going to cave to the demands Donald claims he'll put on them - especially if he can't keep his cool. This was not only a presidential debate; it was also a test to see how well he'll handle himself on the world stage. He did okay for the first thirty minutes and then fell apart. So maybe he gets a D-. Funny how he brought up possible issues with Hillary's stamina when he couldn't keep his mental endurance for an hour and half. Maybe his handlers should give him Valium for the next two debates since he'll probably do better napping than talking.
“What kind of man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.”
― Terry Pratchett, Going Postal